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Linuxgruven, Sair And Employment Practices - updated
"Here are other links to mailing list discussions about those offered positions at Linuxgruven:
- [Email from Ronald Boney and Paul Berlin]
- [Email from jiin@jiin.org]
- [Email from tmservo@pitton.com]"
Sair GNU/Linux provides certification and testing materials for personal or corporate use intended to show proficiency with various GNU/GPL software. Eric S. Raymond, Jon "maddog" Hall, Bruce Perens, Richard Stallman and other luminaries of Free software sit on the board of Sair, which lends an air of credibility that few organizations can boast.
In an economic niche somewhere near that of Sair, Linuxgruven also focuses on GPL software, by providing training courses and materials and certification, but also provides professional services. They currently have offices in eight U.S. cities, and plan on opening an equal number soon, according to their CEO.
I exchanged email and telephone calls with representatives of both Sair GNU/Linux and Linuxgruven yesterday to find out what each had to say about any legal entanglement between the two companies, and about the uncomplimentary descriptions online of Linuxgruven's hiring practices. If you read the links above, you'll find accounts by Linuxgruven course applicants, who claim that they were offered well-paid entry-level jobs -- in advance, prior to taking any course -- in exchange for paying up-front for the training courses offered by Linuxgruven.
Lenny Sawyer, Sair's Vice President of Operations, was the first to respond to my email, but could offer little information. He said "[w]e (Sair Linux and GNU) feel it would be inappropriate for our company to comment publicly on any possible legal proceedings or an investigation by an outside agency. Sair Linux and GNU Certification has stated it will always take the necessary and proper steps to protect its copyrighted training and certification materials, but we can not comment on any possible individual situations."
Shortly after this, I reached by telephone a Linuxgruven employee named Alex White, who told me that I needed to talk to Matt Porter, the company's CEO. Porter, he said, was on another phone call at the time, but would be able to call me back later in the day. I asked whether I could have Porter's email address in addition, but White said that he had been told not to release email addresses.
While he was on the phone, I asked White (in Linuxgruven's St. Louis office) a little bit about Linuxgruven and his experience there. Was he a Linux user? Did he take a Linuxgruven training course? White answered Yes to both of those questions, and described the 4-week training course as "very comprehensive -- about 80 hours of classroom instruction." White, though, said he was unaware of any legal action either active or in the works involving Linuxgruven, and that I'd have to wait to talk with Porter. White also said he'd never heard of anyone being offered a job at Linuxgruven contingent upon pre-payment of course fees.
I asked White if when he had taken the Linuxgruven course he had been asked or required to pay in advance. "I don't recall," he said. When I expressed surprise at not remembering at what point he'd had to hand over the thousands of dollars the four-week course costs, he explained, "I had relatives who paid for it, and they went through that whole [payment] process." He saw the training course as a route to a better job, after a stint in tech support for another company. What is his job at Linuxgruven now? "Basically, I set up interviews," said White.
A few hours later, Porter called me back, and promised an email with some information (it arrived a few minutes later), and provided his cell phone number; we both agreed that I should read his email and then we would talk again.
During a second telephone call, I asked Porter whether anyone was offered employment at Linuxgruven on a quid pro quo basis, as the user-group emails above indicate, and Porter flatly denied that anyone was ever offered a job based on prepayment for Linuxgruven's training course. "That's never been the case," he said. "That's not how we operate."
"There is absolutely no requirement that any job applicant take our training course and, in fact, we have many employees who have passed either our own examination or the Sair examination without ever taking our training course," reads part of his e-mailed response. "If someone wishes to take our training course in order to prepare for either our own examination or the Sair examination, we offer a discount on our course and we offer to employ the person if he or she subsequently passes one of the two examinations. We do not offer employment in return for simply enrolling in the course, and we do not guarantee that anyone who takes the course will pass one of the two examinations."
Porter told me by phone and in his email that he was aware of the Ross Brunson email cited above, but that he knew of no active legal action involving his company and Sair, or anyone else. Rather than the (singular) "ongoing Better Business Bureau investigation" mentioned in that email, Porter said that he is aware of two BBB investigations, one apiece from the St. Louis and Kansas City bureaus. "We are currently working with both Better Business Bureaus to explain the correct nature of our employment practices," according to his email.
But what is the status of Sair's relationship with Linuxgruven, and why the talk of legal action? According to the email linked above, which Porter says he "assumes is genuine," Sair has "suspended operations with [Linuxgruven] due to non-compliance" with Sair's contracts regarding instructor qualifications.
Porter puts it slightly differently, allowing that Sair and Linuxgruven are no longer parters, but according to him this is because the two companies could not agree on terms for contract renewal. He said via email, "We have not received any word from Sair Linux asserting that it believes that we have misappropriated any of its copyrighted materials. Of course, it is not our company's policy or practice to misappropriate anyone's copyrighted materials."
"The whole stuff about Sair confuses me, because we look at that test, and we have complete respect for what Sair and those guys are doing," said Porter. "We have the utmost respect for the Linux community,and we owe a lot to the community." Porter pointed out that his company accepts Sair-certified applicants, and said this was a good indicator of how much respect Linuxgruven holds for the worth of Sair's training, whether or not the two companies are currently working together.
On the telephone, Porter also seemed slightly taken aback by the disappointment and skepticism expressed online by the people behind the links above, saying "We're a legit company ... We have happy customers," pointing to the testimonials and case studies featured on the Linuxgruven web site. Porter, in fact, is chairperson of the St. Louis LUG, and seems genuinely interested in spreading the idea of Open Source software.
With eight offices open at present, and plans to open eight more in the works, there's no doubt that that aggressive hiring practices are the natural result of Linuxgruven's growth. But why do several people claim to have been offered jobs in exchange for paying for the Linuxgruven training course, if that's "never been the case," as Porter says? The answer to that is likely to come out soon.
If courtroom action is initiated, we're sure to hear more about both Sair and Linuxgruven; anyone with experiences of any kind as a Linuxgruven applicant or employee, or with thoughts on the Sair certification, is encouraged to post comments below.
Update: 01/31 02:04 AM by T : Thanks to Matt Porter for this clarification: Alex White, the Linuxgruven employee I spoke to on the phone, has not yet received certification from Linuxgruven, and his current position is one which allows him to work toward that certification. Any implication otherwise was in error.
They even stole the penguin logo.
sulli
RTFJ.
i mean if you take a course to get certified, your probably going to get a job. linuxgruven just wants to make sure that they get an extra advantage when they go scouting. to me the thought of scouting people by training them seems like a very good idea for any firm. how better to get a feel for how good a guy is than to sit and train him for a while.
as they say, they've hired people who werent trained by them before.
.brad
Drink more tea
organicgreenteas.com
flesh eating ants records
First, I'd like to say my wife and I are writing an LPI study guide for IDG. This is the certification IDG supports, not us. But after taking both exams I'm happy to be writing this book.
I took the SAIR exams at LinuxWorld in San Jose and I'm not impressed. I've also taken the LPI exams, and they are better geared toward real-world job experience. SAIR also partners with Wave to provide training material. That material basically spoon feeds you the answers. After taking the exams my wife and I both looked over the Wave books and just picked out the answers to the questions word for word. I don't consider that very professional.
I'm scheduled for the RHCE exam in two weeks. I wish more people did lab exams....
I would tend to agree that this sounds like a scam -- there is a fine line between "we give you a discount and hire you if you pass..." and "pay to take the exam at a discount and we'll hire you." It seems like a great way to get imployees, but in reality they're paying their own salary for the first month or two -- at which point they can be fired if they aren't worth Taco Boy's two cents.
--
--
I Hit the Karma Cap, and All I Got Was This Lousy
Linuxgruven sells Linux training seminars. SAIR sells Linux training seminars. Linuxgruven probably needs seminar teachers.
Who could teach the Linuxgruven seminars better than former students (or students of SAIR)?
It's one thing to say that Linuxgruven's seminars suck and aren't worth the money, but that doesn't make it illegal. Neither does offerring the prospect of jobs to seminar attendees.
And what exactly does SAIR have to do with any of this?
Dancin Santa
"$45,000/YR> Entry level position. Responsibilities include installation, administration, and updating system security. Positions available nationwide. Qualifications: 2 yrs minimum IT experience in programming, web development, system administration,hardware or equivalent experience. Must have excellent communication skills as you will be interacting with clients. If you do have Linux experience, we will ask you to take an exam to measure your skills. If most of your experience is on other platforms, we have a variety of training and certification options available. If interested please submit your resume as plain text in the body of your email message. All attachments will be deleted. Submit resume" It does not look like you have to go through the course. Now if you do all that and then get a job setting up interviews that would suck. But if one was looking for a way to get a Linux job on the old resume it might not be too bad.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Instead of paying people back with the money they put into the course, why don't they just say, hey, the course is free, but if you get hired you'll work for free for two months! :)
I guess that wouldn't really entice anyone now would it?
--- I used to moderate, then I read the -1 articles and decided having to filter through them was not worth it.
It's either a scam, or a very poorly executed recruitment drive. Either way, I personally would steer clear.
Want to get a Linux job? The best way is probably to participate in the community as much as possible, then put THAT on a resume... example; "Contributed port X for Linux, fixed bugs Y and Z".
-- The unsig...
The conclusion was that the policy that people were reporting then, which sure sounds like what we're hearing here, seemed pretty fishy.
At the time, I figured that they were a little company that was trying just a little too hard to grow a little too fast; the evidence neither supports:
Perhaps the most cogent comment was thus:
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
I am sure that it is against the law for an employer to force a prospective employee to pay them for the opportunity to get a job, which seems to be to me why, the first guy who talked "couldn't remember" and the president sent an email explicitly stating what they are doing. Easier to prove what he said, and nice when the lawyer can get a peek at it first to make sure nothing can bite you.
I personally would not have anything to do with someone as slippery as this, if it is really true.
All seems rather fishy to me, someone aughta call the state labor board where they are to have them take a peek at how bidneth is done down there.
Jer,
H&R Block offers people who successfully complete their tax course possibility of employment.
What makes Linuxgruven's practices any different?
You are kind of right. But in the training school business this is really quite common. One place that I hear ads for on a regular basis says they will train and then place you in a job stay in the job for a year and then they will reimburse you for some amount. Many of these companies make money on both ends. I have not read anything but the ad but it looks like if you go through the training and then want to work for them they will offer the job. It makes sense given the mindset of the training schools. I would not work for them on the basis that I think said schools are evil but many would.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
I would rather work for a company that was interested in me, and willing to train me if I was behind on anything. Come to think of it, I do work for a company like that. They hired me right out of college, and promptly spent several thousand dollars sending me to 3 different training courses.
Whether this is a scam or not, I wouldn't want to work somewhere where the attitude is "how much can we get out of our employees." I would want to, and do, work for a company where the attitude is "how much can we give our employees to make them better, more capable programmers."
wishus
---
A great many years ago (more than I care to mention), I was looking for my first job. I went to an employment service and got interviewed for an insurance/securities sales job. I was told I had done brilliantly on the interview and got hired, paying the headhunter's fee based on potential earnings (what can I say? I was inexperienced and stupid). Fast forward about a year. Turns out that the so-called insurance company and the headhunters were in cahoots. I got scammed out of a fee, never earned a dime of commissions, but learned a heck of a lesson about jobs that sound too good to be true. The only thing missing in the Linuxgruven deal is the headhunter's office. They're just cutting out the middle man.
---Any philosophy that can be put "in a nutshell" belongs there.---
Some of the chief proponents of Open Source sit on the board of Sair, which is interested in "[taking] the necessary and proper steps to protect its copyrighted training and certification materials..." So, Mad Dog, are you telling us that software should be free but knowledge should not? I'm very confused...
main(){char I,l,O[]={'-',1-1,0,(1<<5)-1,0+'-',-10-1,-10,11-0,
This is a detailed account of my experience with Linuxgruven...
Including a response by the CEO.
"I've seen plays that were more exciting than this.
Honest to god... Plays!" Homer Simpson
I make 80K/yr designing web pages with FrontPage
I guess it depends where you live as to what is considered "good pay". In and around Kansas City, most IT professionals earn between $45K and $65K per year (putting Linuxgruven at the low end of the scale). I would imagine in a place like silicon valley, those number would be higher. Much higher.
--
For every post, there is an equal and opposite re-post.
Any potential employer with a commision-compensated human resources department should be a BIG RED FLAG. Perhaps it would be acceptable if you weren't being offered the job pending completion of a several thousand dollar training course. My girlfriend is interviewing with several companies for positions that require certain licenses or certifications, and they all have offered to pay her to take the courses and exams.
I know of 2 ppl that have gone through the trainign and then taken their tests. They said the material on the test was not even covered in training. IMHO, that is a SCAM!!!! I mean, come one.....if it is their test and they are training...,can they at least teach material that is on the test>
In June, I had just moved back to the St. Louis area with my MCSE and little experience. After searching for employment I came across Linuxgruven. At first I was skeptical just like anyone else would be. I went to the St. Louis office for an interview. During the interview I was told that I did not have to pay the money and take the class to be hired on by Linuxgruven, that I could do self study (which I seriously considered), and that a contract would be written up that said I would recieve my $ back at the point of 1 year of employment with the company. I did pay the $ and did get a contract. Now, 6 months later I am gainfully employed by Linuxgruven, work 9-6, monday through friday, have a client that I provide support for, and MOST IMPORTANT, I recieve a paycheck, every 2 weeks that comes out to $45,000 a year! I can safely say that Linuxgruven is a real company that provides real support for real companies, there is no funny bussiness going on here, just good ol' fashioned WORK.
I interviewed with Linuxgruven in June and was offered a job pending Sair certification. I was told I could sign up for the class or not, I just had to get certified because they needed network engineers. After some self study I attempted the first of the four Sair exams required for LCA certification. After failing 3 times I signed up for, and took the class. As a side note I graduated #1 in my class from the University of Missouri, so I know how to study. Obviously, the content of the class is difficult, but the instruction was exactly what I needed. I proceeded to pass three of the four Sair exams on my first try after the class. I have been an employee of Linuxgruven for 3 months now and have long since recouped my investment. The class is very demanding and certainly not for everyone, but for those who are bright and willing to work hard, Linuxgruven is an excellent path.
I first heard of Linuxgruven this summer when I responded to an ad offering network engineer positions and training. Like many people, I was slightly suspicious of the offer but was persuaded by the fact that I could pursue independent study; I was not REQUIRED to pay any money or take any class. I started to study on my own. I found that independent study was not going to work for me; I did not have enough *NIX experience to help me along.After a week of self-study, I couldn't have told you the difference between /etc/ and /var/. I called back and signed up for the course.
I won't say that the course was easy, or that it prepared me for all the questions on the certification tests. It certainly didn't prepare me for all the different things I have had to do since I started in October.It did prepare me to study and understand more than basic Linux material.Furthermore, after the class was over, help was available if I asked for it.
Since I have started, I have mostly configured VPN's and firewalls - not bad for someone who didn't know a command that wasn't identical to one in DOS. I routinely switch back and forth between about four or five different Linux distributions. I can set up DNS, Apache, ftp servers, print servers, NFS, NIS, Samba, and who knows what else. I am comfortable with almost any aspect of routine system administration or networking, and if it's not routine, I know how to look for help, RTFM, and understand the FM. Usually, I can get whatever I'm trying to do to work. In short, I have quite a few skills I didn't have a year ago because of Linuxgruven's training, and I'm learning more every day. I've even been promoted.
In most things in life, you only get rewards commensurate with your effort. Linuxgruven is like that. I worked like a dog studying and getting lots of hands-on practice, and now it's paying off. I'm not saying that Linuxgruven is perfect, because nothing is. However, anyone who feels slighted because they weren't able to get certified should take a long look in the mirror and ask why not.
I am an employee of Linuxgruven. I have been employed here for over 3 months. Since I have gotten here, the company has been constantly growing. It has been an excellent experience. My knowledge of the Linux operating system has grown tremendously, and the atmosphere within the company promotes an environment of continual growth. Besides gaining a wealth of knowledge and experience, the salary is far beyond excellent for an entry level position.
Without getting into discussion about potential legal issues or Linuxgruven's business practices, here is my experience. I had no Linux experience, took their course, passed 4 SAIR's exams and got hired. I have been with the company for over 6 months. Besides getting paid double what I was making before, I benefited in many other ways: I learned to program in Perl and PHP, learned how to set up and administer anything that works with Linux. Even if I lost my job tomorrow, I could easily find equally good one with the knowledge I posess now. There is nobody who got certified either by SAIR or Linuxgruven and didn't get a job with Linuxgruven. Nobody has to take their course. If you can do it on your own, great. People who are complaining are those who never tried or who are too dumb to get certified. If you have any further questions, feel free to ask. I heard a lot of people saying that a company will pay for your training. Yes, it's true but only if you already have experience or some kind of knowledge.
I currently work at Linuxgruven, Inc. I have worked their since July. I have gotten everything that was part of my contract. I took the training class. I got certified. I get a paycheck at every pay period. My knowledge of the Linux operating environment has grown more than three-fold. The company has been growing by leaps and bounds and I am honored to be one of the support legs that help us reach for the future of this company and of Linux in general. Linuxgruven might not be for everybody. It is an environment that requires hard work and dedication. I understand that getting certified is not easy. I know many people struggle, but it is obtainable goal for I am proof of that. Linuxgruven is a valuable opportunity to be part of the Linux future.
I would like to relate my personal experience eith Linuxgruven. I took the Linuxgruven course and subsequently the Sair certification tests. I received my Sair certification (LCA). Upon completion of my certification, I contacted Linuxgruven, they told me to come down and fill out employment papers. I started two weeks later and have been with the company for 4 months as a Network Engineer, working onsite with clients and providing telephone support. As far as I'm concerned they have delivered on there promises.
Firstly, I am an employee of Linuxgruven.com, inc., and I was hired one month ago. I am going to attempt to remain as neutral as possible regarding the above while composing this. I understand many students' and prospective students' concerns regarding Linuxgruven, as I also experienced similar feelings. However, I did take the Linuxgruven certification course, I was satisfied with the instruction and materials, and I did subsequently pass all four SAIR certification exams after two months of in-depth and organized study. Furthermore, I was offered an opportunity to get my foot in the door in a field where experience is essential in securing employment. Simply stated, I was appalled by the claim that Linuxgruven exists by selling lies. It is unfortunate that many people are upset at a great career opportunity. The company is growing rapidly, and, of course, they will need employees to fill their positions. Sadly, many seem perplexed by the business model which Linuxgruven incorporates. The bottom line for Linuxgruven is: If you receive a certification from SAIR or Linuxgruven, there is a position available for you with Linuxgruven. Now we get into the red tape. Linuxgruven is offering a preparation course for certification. When you interview for the job, you are offered the option to take this certification course (of course, you will have to pay a fee for this course). If, after having taken the course, you pass all certification exams, you are GUARANTEED a job with Linuxgruven. On a side note, you are NOT guaranteed a job if you have not taken the course and have, in fact, passed the requisite examinations (in this case, you must interview for the job just like any other tech job; prove that you know your stuff, and you're probably hired on). Now, why would anyone want to fork out all that cash just to get a job? Nobody pays for a job, right? I thought the same thing. I called my attorney. As you will remember, Linuxgruven guarantees to repay students who have been hired after one year of employment. My attorney reminded me of how much turnover there is in the IT field. I'm sure we all know someone who trained at, say, MCI, and then moved on to, say, AT&T within three months (at least, I know two such people). Well, what is a good way to keep your employees that you have trained? Well, one way would be to offer them an incentive. I believe that this is precisely what Linuxgruven is doing, and has done in the past. What I am stating here is not, to my knowledge, company policy. Nor is it simply bantering. Being an academic, I researched this company in-depth long before I agreed to paying for any type of certification course. Despite much of the negative feedback, which is often skewed and even distorted, I found that at its core, Linuxgruven is 100% kosher. Furthermore, I now have an exciting position in the IT field that did not require at least 2 years of experience! Finally, I am proud to say that I am working for a company that fully supports the open-source movement, has introduced Linux to literally thousands of people, and has innovative plans to further the future of the operating system. Go Linux! Go Linuxgruven! --Matty X
I think we can safely say that Linuxgruven employees are not a bit familiar with <br> tag.
Dancin Santa
My, oh, my...isn't it a grand coincidence that all of the positive ("Linuxgruven has been very, very good to me!") posts come from nearly consecutive /. user numbers, none of which show their email addresses.
I'm a *nix Admin from Saint Louis, and this suspect behavior bothers me!
Fixafone on 16:52 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311271 Info)
jc33 on 16:53 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311254 Info)
jmuse on 16:55 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311256 Info)
aowens on 16:56 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311261 Info)
maestro69 on 16:57 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311265 Info)
JavaJoeLinux on 17:07 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311263 Info)
scheat on 17:08 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311268 Info)
by Matty X on 17:10 Tuesday 30 January 2001 CST
(User #311262 Info)
Hello to all, My name is Tim and I am an employee of Linuxgruven.com and I am here to tell you this is a legit company. I did the Sair Certification via self study and was hired on with no problems. If you have any questions feel free to email me at tcoble@linuxgruven.com
I would like to issue a challenge...
If anyone has completed the Sair Certification and been turned down by Linuxgruven for employment, please reply to this. My guess is that no one will be able to reply, because the only people complaining about the company are people who could not handle completing the certification tests.
I would also like to reiterate that most of the people that take Linuxgruven up on their offer for training, are people with LITTLE or NO prior Linux skillsets. If you were an employer for a Linux company, would you train jo-schmo off the streets?...
They still have time to pass exams. And nobody ever said that everybody would pass. If everybody could pass, the certification would be meaningless.
www.linuxgruven.com
Look buddy, Just because you couldn't handle reading the IPChains Howto, why is it that someone else couldn't do it? Did it take you six months to kill telnet and replace with SSH?
What was that thing about a fool and his money?
This sounds like a new version of the old employment agency scam. Pay us and we'll get you a job. The trick is that you pay and maybe you get a job - usually something you could have culled from the want ads. Now, we have the techno-twist on the old scam - pay us for a "training class" and we'll give you a job.
45k with no or little experiance is outstanding for this area. Starting MCSE with non to little experiance makes 30kyr. JT
"Life is art...Paint your destiny"
I have a nearly completely non-tech background. I was a retail sales manager for about 17 years. My only tech experience was working with my own box at home for a few years. I left retail and worked as the Director of Data Processing for a small company and determined that I'd much rather be in a tech related field that in the retail grind.
I saw the ad from Linuxgruven, submitted a resume, took the aptitude test and had a couple of interviews. I admit it took a lot to overcome my skepticism. The explanation I received for the payment of the training fee up front and other aspects of the company's business model satisfied me enough to fork over the money.
I passed the SAIR exams (taking some more than once) after going through Linuxgruven's four week training. It wasn't easy, especially with my lack of a technical background, but if it was easy it would have little value.
I began my employment the first of the year. I am making what I was promised. We are doing the sorts of things I was told we would be doing.
For someone changing careers as dramatically as I did in the middle of my earning years, this is a great opportunity, and I have no regrets.
If you think that we won't defend ourselves, then you're even dumber than you sound.
Maybe it's just me, but here in the UK, and in Scotland in particular, I get the impression training is a dirty word. When I see the a job advertisement saying "Full training given," I ask myself whether that means a couple of hours reading the Health & Safety policy and then doing a questionnaire. I'm trying to get into IT, but with limited experience find it difficult finding anything other than call centre opportunities. Irate telephone enquiries isn't my bag, however. Even if training someone for a position costs a few grand, surely that could be recouped by paying a lower salary for a year or two. Companies seem to want everything up front.
Not exactly showing friendly community spirit, now are we?
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
hate to say this... but... 45k ain't shit if you can: a) breathe in _any_ state in the U.S.... and b) demonstrate a sembelance of unix skills......
This Linuxgruven thing is one hell of a great opportunity!
Judging from how much time everyone seems to have on their hands, there must be thousands of unemployed people surfing slashdot every day.
This is your big chance!! Just sell that kidney and sign up for Linuxgruven's wonderful training course.
Yikes. How many Linuxgruven employees have a new set of encyclopedias and a brand new electrolux vacuum at home?
Yes, I'm a Linuxgruven employee...and, for those of you that seem to care, you might notice I don't have a sequential Slashdot ID#, I've had this account for awhile. To help clear things up, let me say that as a company we provide excellent training to all of our students. We also keep our agreements. I was offered employment, contingent on becoming SAIR LCA certified. I went through the training course which helped me immensely, and I became certified. I was promptly hired, and I am making the salary (and benefits) that I was promised. Not only that, but I have been given a number of opportunities within the company to further myself, and since being hired some four months ago I have learned many valuable things about linux. Before working for the company, did I know how to build a Linux cluster? No, but I do now. I have been rewarded for my efforts, and am thrilled to be working for such a rapidly growing company that will clearly benefit the Open Source movement as a whole. Is our company perfect? No, I suppose it isn't... But I challenge you to show me a company that is. I can guarantee my job is a LOT better than what I would be doing if Linuxgruven didn't exist...I certainly wouldn't be employed by a company that even knows the meaning of Linux/GNU or Open Source, let alone base their business model on it.
I am a LG candidate who is hard at work studying to pass the Sair exams. I have had this exact same discussion with several of my future co-workers (ie other people who are learning/training with Linuxgruven). There are a couple of things that need to be considered. A key fact that people are missing is that Linuxgruven(LG) is looking to hire Linux certified administrators (LCA's). If you are not an LCA, they won't hire you. If you aspire to be one, you can either self-study or they will put you through a training course for a fee ($2500). This course gives you a good overview of what to expect from the job and what you need to know to pass the tests to do well at the job. If you take the training course and pass all of your exams, you will be hired and have a job @ $45,000/yr. ***If you stay with the compnay for a full year, you will be reimbursed for your training in full***. Also, when you get hired, (after passing the exams) the $$ that you spent on the LCA exams is reimbursed to you (4 tests @$99 apiece = approx $400). So, Think with me here: If you are going to hire someone, why not pay for their training? Well, from the class that I attended back in November, I am 1 of 2 students who are still serious about doing this. Everyone else has quit! This is out of a class of 15. If LG HADN'T charged all of us the training fee, they would be out the money that it costs to train 13 people!! I want my $2500 back so I am going to stick by the company and get my it back this time next year. This is not simply what I think, I HAVE ALL OF THIS IN WRITING!! A quick comparison: If you want to get a job, you need to have training. Some people choose to self train through books and experimentation, others choose to go to training classes. I went to class, I've taken the tests, I'm going to have a job. It's as simple as that. If you think that you can get a job without documentation of your knowlege either through a cert, a documented track record or some other way for the company to check and see if you know what you SAY you know, then brother, you are dreaming! A CERT like the SAIR cert is a good way to start establishing you credibility as a person who knows how to work with Linux. Please know all of the facts before spewing forth with these worthless comments. If you know about the situation from personal experience and have a different viewpoint, please share it. But, don't forget that everything I've said in this long-winded post is backed up and documented on paper by Linuxgruven. Cheers, Alex
I was one of those people who simply did not have the experience to easily get a good-paying IT job, though I did (and do) have the drive and desire to learn, which is, IMO, the foundation of the open-source movement. I went ahead and paid the money for the course after some discussion with friends and family who would have a better idea than me as to whether this company sounded legit. The class was as extensive as one can be for only being 4 weeks long, and it, along with a month of intense study aided me in passing all four Sair tests on the first try.
I have worked here two months, and so far I am satisfied with both my pay and my working conditions.
Finally, if you don't like Linuxgruven's method of hiring, don't take the class. It is that simple. I do know, though, that when I interviewed for the position, I was told that the one contingency for me being hired at the aforementioned pay was passing the Sair exams. Since I and my co-workers are making what we were promised, I would have to conclude that I was not being lied to and that this was (and is) a great opportunity for me.
The thing that strikes me the most about a lot of these comments is the use of the term TRAINING when in fact what we are talking about is EDUCATION. I'm not sure but my guess is that Linuxgruven would train you on what they want you to do WHEN you become an employee and they would do it at their expense. However, I believe what we are talking about is EDUCATION expenses that someone might incur in order to get a job with them or anyone else. I don't see to many people lining up to pay off my education expenses. These are expenses I incurred to secure a degree ( a nationally recognized certificate not much of a difference between that and a certification) It does not seem that Linuxgruven is asking anything different than what happens all over the country. The student pays for their own education to get the knowledge to get hired. The company will train for the specific task that they will be doing once they are hired. All they seem to be asking for is that a person have a Linux Certification BEFORE being considered for hire. Do you know how many jobs require degrees or certifications before hire? Ten's of Thousands maybe hundreds of thousands. The only difference is that Linuxgruven seems to provide this training as an option. But it does not seem to be a requirement for employment. However, from reading the comments and the articles, it does seem that they guarantee some people employment if they do get certified using their educational classes or not and that they will pay you back the expenses for your education after one year of employment. I only wish this had been offered to me, I would not now be working to pay off a HUGE debt. (And I had no job guarantee either, I was on my own)
I interviewed with them back in July in Kansas City. The interviewer was James Hibbits CEO (that is what's on his card). They never asked for my resume before the interview which I thought was strange. He talked about training and certification but I don't recall him mentioning any cost for it. He asked basic questions about open source and various simple Linux commands. I never heard back from them for any follow up's.
I would NEVER work somewhere where they wanted you up front to pay for your training. Also, no insult intended, but what kind of company who pays salaries like that to green employees with no work experience is going to make it. What services CAN they offer?
/.
No one can just take a cram course, pass a few tests, and be an instant expert. I've worked with Linux as a hobbyist for just over a year now, and I've run it mostly as my main OS. I started with RH 6.1, which won't impress many here on
But only NOW, after a year of using Linux, configuring it, playing with it, etc, do I even feel I'm ready to ATTEMPT to go after some kind of certification (Sair is probably the route I'll go). Fortunately, my last 2 months working for a major company in Durham, NC has accelerated my Linux education, as I've been able to use it on the job.
I'm FAR from a PC newbie. I've worked as a PC technician for over 8 years now (A+ certified). Linux is very different from the DOS/Doze world, so different that it was very hard even for someone like me in the beginning to grasp it.
Having worked in the tech industry as long as I have, I've come to be able to spot the difference between the people who KNOW what they are doing, and the ones who have paper that says they know it.
Certification training is NOT the be all and end all. It's only value is to validate to others that you are able to pass a certain level of tests of knowledge. It only goes WITH your experience to validate that you truly HAVE those skills. People who are only trained to pass tests are virtually worthless in the tech biz. Even worse, they devalue the certification itself (as the MCSE has become).
Simply put, if you have the ability, get yourself the training. Play with a PC. A PC that will run Linux adequately can be had very cheaply. Find an entry-level job working as a bench technician. You will learn all the fundamentals there.
If you have the talent, you will be better served by doing 6 months of even low level practical work than you ever will get out of years of book and classroom training.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
"I know several people who are self-taught and completely uncertified, who do small office networking and such, and charge $80-150 an hour. They have absolutely no trouble getting it"
Exactly what I've experienced. I'm 100% self taught. My computer expereince dates back to the VIC-20 in 1980. I worked as a PC tech for 6 years before getting the A+ certification, which was done because my employer required it (our techs had to be A+ certified for certain contract customers). I didn't study and got 93% on the core and 90% on the DOS/Windows part...
Now granted, someone can study books, take a training course, and get the 65% required to pass, but who are you going to hire? Someone with the A+ and 8 years experience? Sure I cost a lot more, but a service company that employs paper technicians is NOT going to keep customers happy.
Having worked with networks, Novell, Linux, and `Doze for the last 2 years, I'm now considering going for a network engineer certification. Not for it's own sake, but to VALIDATE my experience.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
-----------------------
Nicotine free Amish .sig.
I have been employed by Linuxgruven for several months. My entry level salary and benifits have been widely publicized. I went to the interview, I listened, I asked questions, and came away with a clear picture of what they had to offer. I was told I would be offered employment IF I recieved certification. There is no scam here. Either you can get certified or you can't. Sair certification was not easy, the questions and answers were not published on the internet. I came away with a working knowledge of the Linux Distributions. Everyday I work with a group of highly skilled, Linux professionals, most of whom have their own areas of expertise, it is an atmosphere where everyone gets a little more knowledgeable every day. So just why do we need so many people training and working for Linuxgruven? When Linux finally emerges as the premier operating system that it is, Linuxgruven will be there, with its pool of dedicated Linux professionals, to smooth the transition. Its not a scam. Its a plan.
How many ppl got trained by Linuxgruven and failed the Linuxgruven test. I only say this becuse i have talked to many ppl in dallas and they said the items on the test were not covered in training.
LINUXPOOPIN we will throw your money down the shitter!!
It is simple. You want to be more marketable, get certified. Linuxgruven will hire you if you are certified. They will also provide training, if you wish. I've looked at Quarom, PrimAmerica, and other MLM companies, linxgruven is not the same. your not asked to tap your friends. Your asked to get certified. I got my MCP in 97 when it was worth something. It is useless now. I've added a CCNA, and now, an LCA. these are worth something. I have a friend with compaq, that tells me about all the MCSE, that don't know anything. I interviewed with compaq, and got turned down, because I did not complete my MCSE. The reason I didn't, the companies I worked for kept me too busy to finish it. Regardless of what you may think Linuxgruven may or may not be, the certification will help those that get it. And there is a job offer if you take them up on it.
I remember my first programming job. I had very little college and I was sitting next to a grad that was earning 2 grand less then me. Lesson 1: Life is unfair. .com because of the carot. Lesson 7: You have to want to make money.
I've seen this befour. It was a Java shop they said to me. we will hire you if you take this coarse. Then we will consult you out. After a year we will pay you back. And then I was also offered that If I work a year for nothing they will invest money in me to go to classes. Lesson 2: There is no free ride.
The only job that would pay for me to go to school from day one asked that I wear a tie 4 days a week. Lesson 3: They scratch your back. You wash their car.
Now I'm very big. I'm a big important man. and the only thing thats different is underneath my hat. ( TMBG ). Well actually. I'm coming up on 7 years programming and 6 years using Linux. and 2 years working only on linux. ( no MS at my house ). I can go into any place and pimp all kinda skillz. Lesson 4: Expect to pay your dues befour you just go out and get a great job.
But I know some AS400 people that have thought about linuxgruven. I thought linuxgruven was being nice when they said they would hire her if she passed a exam. Actually I told her to get the RedHat Exam book and cram till i found out how much that was. Lesson 5: Sucks to be deprecated.
If I was linuxgruven I would expect a bunch of Slashdot Zealot types banging down my door expecting High paying jobs... It does not suprize me that Linuxgruven wants only LCA's. Lord knows I would not send some of the Linux guys I've met to a customer site with out something real under their belt. Also. I hired a "Linux Guru"-"All About Open Source"-"New Techno Rocker"-"Slashdot Flamer" and the joker could not show up for work till after noon. I'm damn glad that the company did not send him off to be trained in something when he first started only to find out that he can't show up for work. On another level I've been in Sun Classes where 35 year old guys skip the first 2 days because they are great programmers only to not be able to do the class work on the last day. Expecting a company to go out and spend money on every Knuckle head that can install apache on redhat in hopes they are not full of Cr@p when you send them to a customer site or training class makes no sense. Lesson 6: No one promised you a Rose garden. All you get is dirt.
I know a techie that earns over 200,000.00 a year. He is not married. Lives alone and is out of town almost 25 days a month. I know guys that work 70+ hours a week for almost nothing at a
Here's something for you dorm monkeys to go out and put in your pipes. Go find out how you become a Air Traffic Controler. If memory serves me correct thats over 7 thousand dollars for the training and you don't even get the promise of a job just a certification and a list of airports. And I think starting for that job is 35,000 dollars a year. Lesson 8: Something allways sucks more.
Maybe I'm wasting my breath. Half of you will want to be project management with in 2 years of working anyway. The you will just piss off the other half of us till we quit. Lesson 9: Talent leaves befour dead weight.
Last one in jail is a fascist.
Marketing Guys,
Take my advice, gleaned from many semesters of classes leading to a real-live undergrad degree in Advertising:
The attorney thing is a stretch. Just say you asked a friend who is an attorney, or maybe a neighbor. But posting as a regluar employee and claiming you have an attorney isn't lending any credibility to your claim.
Lose the "guarentee" bit. You should be going for a soft sell in this forum. No need to pound the details, that's been taken care of in other posts.
Hold back on the dramatic closing. Remember, this is a testimonial, it's not supposed to be glitzy or end in a bang.
And finally remember that ambigouity is your friend.
Cheers,
jonbrewer
I am currently enrolled in the Linuxgruven class. I have my first test on monday. I've been using Linux for about 2 years, and I've actually learned a _lot_ from this class. The one thing that separates the linuxgruven cert. from the sair ones is that they _require_ hands on testing. Meaning if you can't perform simple tasks (both networking and sys admin) you shouldn't be working or have any cert. period. LG is preventing "paper LCA's". if M$ would've done this their cert would be worth much more. Now an MCSE isn't worth squat because it's an oblsolete technology for one, and 2 you can find the answers to the MCSE online! I used to work for a "paper" CNA and she'd didn't know squat! I did all the work and got paid one_third of what she did. Just because she had that fscking paper! I decided not to stay at that job for a few years until I went someplace in the company thru normal channels. so I left... which put me in with linuxgruven. The thing you all seem to be overlooking is that the pay STARTS at 45k. I was offered a position making almost double because I have 2 years of hardcore linux experience. maybe i'm biased because I'm going to be working for them, but so far it's legit, and I get my money back after 1 year of service. they do that because LCA's are in such short supply right now they are worth a lot!!! i think they're trying to prevent people from using them to get a cert and then jumping ship to another company (because they would lose the $2500). lg reimburses you after 1 year of service for the class/cert. anyway, i've used linux for years and the class is difficult, yes. I think that makes my cert. look better. regardless, of the company you go through, a cert definately makes a difference...
cheers,
cb
and my userid isn't in series, i've been reading slashdot for a while...
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
A little dose of reality.
Linuxgruven happens to be the employer of Kara Pritchard, Director of Exam Development for
the Linux Professional Institute. Feel free to check it out yourself on either LPI's or Linuxgruven's web sites.
While she is actively involved in LPI development and holds an RHCE, I don't believe that Kara has taken any Sair exams.
I also note that Linuxgruven has been very supportive of LPI efforts, and is recognized as a
bronze-level sponsor of LPI.
- Evan
Most of those that have replied either outright hate Linuxgruven or are employed currently. Hardly impartial evidence, so I'll give this a shot.
I may work for linuxgruven, but I haven't decided yet. I don't neccessarily need to as I am amployed currently as a contractor. However that said as some of you may know this Linux thing (that I'm all for and have been using since '97 the thought of not having to get up at 4:00 am and fixing someone's stupid MS Backoffice server is enormously appealing)is something that is really hard to prove you're competent in without having been employed by a company that uses it. That being said linuxgruven is a good oppportunity and I will probably end out teaching or something for them.
Anyway, when I went on the interview I was told that I could take their course, Sair's, or Tony's house of Linux (a Microsoft backed company I suspect) and as long as I handed them a cert that was in Linux/GNU they would let me in. They didn't care. However in the interview the made you take a base skills test, making sure that you weren't a drooling idiot.
At this point I went to the class (in the am, I shut down all morning calls for about a month as I could get there in the afternoon if I had to). This class was quite comprehensive and helped out quite a bit. Worth 2500? No, unless the company's paying for it (which, in a sense, they are). But worth a good sum? Yes.
For the sake of arguement I also looked at what it would cost to take the sair course. 5000 was the cheapest I found. That isn't good, so I went with linuxgruven's.
5 weeks later I took the test. This test not only includes the standard write the answer down questions, but is like Cisco in that it requires you to do a hands-on and troubleshooting portion. All of which make this a little more worth while.
So, to review, yes the price is steep. Yes, it sounds like a scam. But the final answer is that they are desperate to get people into this field as it is very understaffed. At last count there is something like 80 LCA's running around and linuxgruven has half or so of them.
Makes me wonder if perhaps they know more than we do.
|Rob Hutchins (KoolKustom181@hotmail.com)
|Rob Hutchins (KoolKustom181@hotmail.com)
|So many idiots, so little ammunition...
One person did it, no call, no syncing, 1 minute between scurvy ID changes...
Sorry for the OT post, but does anyone have any suggestions for self training that they found particularly effective (O'Reilly books, etc.)?
I've been reading Slashdot for some time (Slashdot ID #1078) and playing about with Linux for something like 3 yrs now. I've never really had lots of time to invest in self training, but recently I've decided to give it a bit more priority. I would appreciate any suggestions (except those that are anatomically impossible) so fire away.
Some generalizations deserve a curt response...
YOU defend Linuxgruven! Ha...What actual contact or inside info do you have that qualifies you to do such. OOHH! I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, but the bottom line is , your retoric is all to common among people who have little knowledge and too much time to display it.As for my background and qualifications...You should be so lucky. There was never a need to follow the MS hype..."Be Prepared" not 'Prepare to Be'. As for McD's... sounds like you've been sending out resumes.Don't care for 'em much myself! ; Evolution:Stop monkeyin' around and be a part of it!
Heya. I'm currently involved with Linuxgruven so I felt the need to respond to this thread. I normally just scan thru the site. At any rate, This is my take on the whole thing. First off, I am not currently employed by Linuxgruven. I responded to an ad in the newspaper in November and went to an interview. After a short interview where my resume was scanned and the interviewer pitched the job at me (it almost felt more like I as interviewing him), I took an amptitude test which was required before any offers were made, to make sure you weren't a total dolt. After I passed the test, I was told the "deal". Get the LCA, and get a job. I was presented with the option of paying $2,500 for a 4 week, 80 hour course to prepare me for the exams. After going thru many details with the interviewer, I told him I'd have to call him back in a few days. Before I left, I expressed my concern that it sounded "too good to be true", in a sense, and that I was skeptical about the legitimacy of the whole operation. He then encouraged me to check into the company in any way I felt necessary, recommended the BBB and other resources. After I could find no evidence that the company was scamming people, after 2 on-the-spot tours of their office, and after corroborating facts about their clients, I agreed to sign up. This is where it's important to pay attention. I was given an "official" employment offer. In it, it was stated that "employment is dependent on achieving LCA certification". It also gave a list of ways to prepare for the certification, one of which was "Self-Study". I opted for their course. When I brought in my check, I was given a signed offer stating everything I had been promised. In it I was guaranteed a full refund of ALL Costs of certification (including course, testing, and all others incurred costs) after 1 year of employment. Signed document in hand I handed over the check. I took their class the first 4 weeks of January, so I just finished last week. I was slightly disappointed in the content of the class, it was not neearly as technical and in-depth as I had hoped. It was geared more towards the not-so-technically-inclined that made up a majority of the class. I do intend to take this issue up with their office manager. I'm taking my first test on monday. I get 2 shots at each Linuxgruven test for free. All in all, I've been involved with Linuxgruven for 2 months now and I have seen absolutely *no* evidence that they're operating illegally or immorally. I, obviously, cannot say for sure right now, as I still have yet to pass the tests and be hired. I was offered all the promises made to me in writing before I paid one cent, and they made an effort to make it clear that CERTIFICATION WAS REQUIRED, NOT THEIR COURSE. They don't care if you can pass the LCA without the course, as long as you pass the LCA. They also do not require you to take their Linuxgruven certification tests. So, you could self-study, take the SAIR tests, get certified and hired at Linuxgruven, without paying Linuxgruven one single cent. Anyway, this is getting long-winded. I will say this, I don't think I'll truly believe that there isn't some sorta catch until after I'm actively working for the company. I've still got small doubts inside me. But like I said, I've seen absolutely no evidence of any sort of bad practices on their part in the 2 months I've been actively visiting their office. The only thing I can say they may be doing that I would question is offering this to some people who are questionably knowledgable in technical aspects in general. There were some people in my class that I sincerely doubt have any hope of passing the tests, so I think they may avoid some pissed off people by making their aptitude test harder, to avoid some of these people making it thru the filter and paying for the course. Please feel free to email me with any comments/flames/etc, as, like I stated earlier, I don't really get the chance to do much more than scan this site. (damdaman6715@yahoo.com) If I run across this topic after my exams I'll be happy to shed more light on the subject if at all possible. Elad
I am sorry to say that Linuxgruven is indeed a fraud. When we signed our agreement, up at the top of the contract it says, "Network Engineer". But nobody is doing that here, unfortunately. The people who "love" linuxgruven are the ones who are skimming off the top of the company. Ask Linuxgruven why all of their bills are not paid. Ask LG why their power almost got cut off at the home office. It is a friends and family deal, and there are only a choice few people who are truly qualified. I admit that I am no guru, but I had taken the course in hopes that I would be after the experience that I could have gained from LG. Don't even get me started on the benefits package, and billing. Do a little research and you will find that some truly creative bookeeping is going on there at the home office. Most people walk into work and check their email, I walk in and ask, "what is today's latest debocle." I cannot say that I will not get a better job from this, because they are a stepping stone, but done expect to get in touch with somebody who will take accountablity for why I am getting screwed, because that person does not exist. The folks at Sair are organized and know how to do things right, and with the partnership with CompTia, they are on their way up. Linuxgruven has cajoled and scammed. Their business practices are to say the least suspect. I would not want to turn my network over to a company that can't even run their own internal business, would you? Have a wonderful day!!! And SLASHDOT, you have gotten more information from these people, than anybody I know ever could. At least they called you back.
It has been suggested that the posts from were either organized by Linuxgruven management or are the work of the same person with multiple accounts.
I would like to suggest it was neither. I believe that Linuxgruven is a cult along the lines of the Hale-Boppers. I believe that current Linuxgruven employees were the students in it's training program that showed the greatest potentional to open suggestion and thus were brainwashed. The popular press already depicts most Linux users as "geeks", "disenfranchised", or "outsiders" which is the perfect pool of humanity in which to recruit from.
Here is what I propose:
We need a syncronized raid on all 8 of the Linuxgruven offices to free these poor, misguided, brainwashed souls before it is too late. Linuxgruven has already publicly stated it intends to double the number of locations in which they can "recruit" new members.
We must act now before it is too late.
I am not an employee of Linuxgruven, though I work with them closely. My company supplies all the PC's for them and we host training space for them. I agree that it *seems* strange, but their model works, and from the people I've talked to nobody has been misled into believing they're going to get a job if they merely *take* the classes, it's understood that they've got to pass.
/. ID. I'm an old-timer. I don't spend a lot of time reading or posting to the comments anymore because of all the crap you have to wade through.
/. account before today...
As an aside, please see my
Anyway, all I can say (as I said when this came up on Kuro5hin months ago) is: they pay their bills on time. And they're big bills. They're making money somehow other than tuition in order to do that.
FWIW: The sequential ID's bother me alot, and I find it hard to believe that there's no other Linuxgruven employee who has had a
--J(K) DOS is like Unix in exactly the same way that a pinto is like an aircraft carrier.
This is an interesting enough scheme, but doesn't requiring the payment up front help them sort out who's really serious vs. who just wants a job? It's fishy, all right, but plenty of people work for borderline sleazy companies when they're just starting out, and when you get the experience, you take off. I should add that I got my start at a computer training company, and they were a scrappy little company which cut corners and blurred a few lines, but that's not bad experience for the business world.
At least they're not like Microsoft, who tells people that the avg MCSE salary is $67000/year in order to get their training bucks, flooding the market with MCSE's in an effort to promote their products. See, if they can make it look like the only "Systems Engineers" (term used loosely) out there know only Windows, then companies won't buy anything else, and won't hire anybody else because MCSE's are getting cheaper and cheaper to hire (on account of the recent explosion in paper expertise). That's how the big boys do it, and this Linuxgruven scheme is what you do when your small-time. Now the questions is: who gets hurt?
* Please do not read my signature.
Gee.. in New England 45k would barely buy you a pot to piss in. Then again, I'm not 18 anymore and have experience now. The only money I had to pay upfront was my college tuiition (OUCH!)
yes .......I paid $2,500 to be trained
yes .......I took and passed all four Sair tests
yes .......I have everything that was promised to me.
yes .......I am happy with my every growing knowledge, job satisfaction,sense of accomplishment, personal confidence, and bank account.
Linuxgruven is everything I believed it would be, and I am going to help bring this company to a level of expertise that no other will be able to touch. Make way.
I just had an experience a week ago. I can't believe I'm reading this.. Read On!
I'm currently at a job that I am comfortable in, although not challenged enough. I've been kind of keeping my eye open for something really nice, but not necessarily looking. One day, my girlfriend calls me at work and says "I found this perfect job for you". It was listed on Monster.com. She then said, "I went to their web site and it has pictures of that penguin you like". So I give them a call and some guy answers. I tell him that I am calling about the Linux Networking Specialist. He asks about my experience. I say that I am currently a Software specialist and enjoy using Linux, although I'm not an expert. He then proceeds to tell me they will train. He then sets up an interview right away. I asked for the Web Site and did further research in their careers section, and I went back to my girlfriend and said exactly this. "It seems like a scam, they didn't ask me anything yet, want to interview me for an hour for a job that I'm probably not qualified for. They didn't ask for a resume or anything. She said that I should go. Something told me not to waste my time. One week later, I see this story. Unbelievable!I first saw the ads for Linuxgruven in October of last year and have to admit, I too thought the offer sounded too good to be true. During the inital interview, I was told that all I really had to do to become an employee and make $45,000 per year was get Linux certified. I was informed of the complany's training options and was again told the training was not a requirement for employment. I did opt to take the training course and completed it at the end of November. The training was helpful but, as I was informed by the instructor, study out side class was required to pass the Sair exams. I have heard many people complain about training saying "I took the training and failed the tests". Well, this isn't High School. Linuxgruven will not spoon feed the answers for the tests to you. You have to want to learn the material and be willing to seek out more information on your own. Research is a HUGE part of being a Linux Administrator. Anyone who thinks they could possibly learn the entire Linux operating system in a couple weeks obviously knows nothing about Linux. I began taking the Sair tests the week after training and after three weeks of studying and testing, I became Sair certified. I contacted Linuxgruven and began working within two weeks. This company has done everything it said it was going to do. I do not know of anyone who is Linux certified that has been refused employment. Feel free to contact me at ghart@linuxgruven.com
Here's my experience with Linuxgruven: I interviewed with the Director of HR, who flew to Austin to do interviews back in mid-2000. Myself and one other person interviewed together. THere was a general review of our resumes, after which the HR guy decided that the other candidate should take a skills test (he was MCSE but had never had an IT job) before continuing, and that I had sufficient experience to continue talking.
Basically, I got exactly what the article said: if I'd pay for their course up front at around $2000, AND I passed the tests afterwards, I'd have a job @45K/yr. I tried to haggle with him quite a bit, since I really wanted the training (and the job) but didn't have $2000. He stated taht they used to train people for free, but they had a lot of people who got trained then abandoned the company, so they started charging. I offered to sign a contract stating that I'd remained employed for a year if they'd take the fee out of my salary, but he wouldn't do it.
It was made clear to me, then and later, that I didn't have to take the class to get the job. Passing their tests was what mattered, and even taking their class was no guarantee I'd pass the test. I was also told specifically that if I had a SAIR certification, I'd be hired on the spot, foregoing the test completely. I asked about RHCE and they said that Linuxgruven was trying to be distro non-specific and that having a RHCE cert didn't guarantee a job. Same for LPI.
While I was frustrated at Linuxgruven because I didn't get what I wanted, I didn't feel like it was a scam, because it was clear I could try the tests w/out taking the class, and if I passed I was hired. In fact, several people (incluing the DIrector of HR) have told me that the training materials would be available for free download from their website. As of December 2000 they were not, and emails regarding this were not answered. I felt like they pushed the class in a sort of semi-salesman way... "hey, you *might* be able to pass it without the class, but you'll have a MUCH better chance if you take the class first...", but again, I never thought it was a scam, and I was never offered a job if I took a class... only if I passed their test.
Whatever happened to JonKatz?
I interviewed with them and asked the HR Director for the company this exact question. He told me that it guaranteed that: a) only serious people were in the classes. b) People didn't take the class and then leave for another job.
In the situation you describe, there's nothing to stop people from getting the training, working there 2 months, then leaving for a better job somewhere else. They have to protect their investment, and one way to do that is to recoup their time up front in the form of cash.
Whatever happened to JonKatz?
$45K a year is a respectable starting salary here in TX.
Whatever happened to JonKatz?
The classes are open to anyone who wishes to take them. To not allow anyone who wants to give it a try would be wrong. As it's been said many times, the classes do not guarantee a job, nor do they guarantee that you'll come out with enough knowledge to pass the exams. The courses give you firm footing to further your knowledge on your own. As for the course materials, they are constantly under revision, and they appreciate any comments/suggestions you might have - just talk to your instructor about that.
Just as a side note, for those like you and I with some decent previous Linux experience, the classes don't get interesting really until the second week. Hang in there and good luck w/ the exams!
"why bother with the training course if you must pay out of pocket?"
.com that lied to me for over a year. At least Linuxgruven seems to be hiring 50% of the LCA's that should say something. I've had jobs where they promised me things and lied to me the whole time I worked for them.
Are you nuts? I had to pay for college. No really I had to pay for it. My mom didn't do it. As a matter of fact I had to Join the Army and lose the years most people get for education So I could pay for college. Durning my first two jobs I had to pay for Continuing education classes so I could get out of Crapy IVR ( or VRU, this is voice response phone programming and it sucks ) programming and go into something with C++. All this I paid for. I even worked for the largest company in the world (thats actual employees). General Electric. And they did not send me to classes for Jack Sh|t. And I was pretty high up on the corp/dev food chain.
There is the way that you want the world to work and there is the way things really happen. If you expect your employer to make you more valuable in a job market where employee turn over is almost every year then bully for you.
If you do get a employer that offers to train you and give you a good paying job with no strings then take it. Trust me Take it. I worked for a
"Don't.. get.. sad..... When people that you trust stab you in the back. So you thought they were your friends. Now you know... Now you know.. there is one thing in life that holds. Your on your own." theThe from the cd NakedSelf.
Last one in jail is a fascist.
No wonder Bill Gates rules the world. If this bunch of jealous unhappy sad people who call themselves Linux gurus are his competition, Microsoft/Windows will be no. 1 forever
Everything is fine as long as nobody is making any money off of the Open Source. As soon as somebody says, WOW! I made 80 000 this year selling packages and support including open source software, all these "linux gurus" jump and using Nazi-like Goebels tactics, try to discredit them.
These so called gurus always have to say something like: I'have been using Linux since 1964. actually, my mom was reading me C code while she was pregnant with me. No, no, I invented Linux before Linus who stole it from me. I sit in a dark room all day long and write my code. I don't have a job but I am helping humanity. Why do I code? For the code itself. My children don't have to eat. The fact that their father knows how to hack should be enough for them.
OH get a life losers. Or better, get a girlfriend, you know a 3D-one. That's what America is all about - Making money. Commies, go to China and work for free.
Unless things have changed.... I interviewed with them about 6 months ago and the deal was... You pay the money for the training class up front, if you successfully certify they will hire you at 45k, after one year with the company they would reimburse the amount of the class. I don't see any problem with this.... At the time I didn't have the money for the class and discussed studying for the tests on my own. Linuxgruven was more than happy to work this way as well... saying I should get back in touch with them after I finished the first exam. They offered to hire me with only one exam complete at a reduced rate. I am not working for Linuxgruven at this time. I accepted a position with a large tech company previous to my completion of the first Linux certification.
It started for me back in June of 2000. I had two interviews that day. One with Linuxgruven, and one with another local computer company. The other company offered me $26,000 a year. I was depressed because I thought my new MCSE certification would land me a great job paying a lot of money. Then I interviewed with Linuxgruven. The bottom line was that if I got certified, I would have a position at the company. I was told that I could do it on my own, or I could take the training course. I did not have any experience with Linux or Unix, so I took the training course. It was very in depth. It taught me the basics I needed to understand Linux. After the class was completed, I took a few weeks to study for the first exam. I failed it, but I kept studying. After 5 weeks, I had passed all of the Sair exams. Two weeks later I was working for Linuxgruven. It is a real company. There was a lot of work to be done there, and not enough people to do it. It was after I started working there that I realized that the company was growing faster than the number of staff members. The company has to be aggressive with their hiring due to this growth. I have been at Linuxgruven for three months. I am being paid what I was promised. I have already received a promotion. I consider myself lucky to have this job. I feel that the company is going to continue to grow. I plan on staying with this company for the rest of my career. To all current students in the Linuxgruven classes, study hard and put in the extra time to learn Linux. It is worth it To all former students that have not passed the tests, don't give up. Study harder. Linuxgruven is not a scam. Our whole staff is made up of Sair LCA's. It can be done. You have to force yourself to try harder. The company wants you to pass. You are upset because it is not easy to pass the tests. The tests are hard, but I passed them with no former Linux/unix experience. It isn't impossible. Do not get mad at Linuxgruven for you not passing the tests. Linuxgruven did not rip you off. You did.
Even my grandma has an A+ certifications and it took her only 3 years.
In perspective, Linuxgruven is offering those of us who don't have a BS:Comp. Sci, or a work history from the late eighties in IT, a chance to get in on the ground floor. I personally have been playing with computers for more than half my life (I'm 25 for those keeping score), that and a buck would've gotten me a cup of coffee before I hooked up with Linuxgruven. For the record, I did go through the Linuxgruven training, and I am a SAIR LCA now, check up on me if you want to at the SAIR website( http://home.linuxcertification.com Lastname: CARTER ID# 417010 ). See, it doesn't matter how much experience you've got, that piece of paper is still very important in an HR perspective, wihtout it you either won't get the job or get paid less for the work you do and generally play second fiddle to anyone who does have paper behind them, regardless of what they know. It might not necessarily make you a guru, but it does show that you have the capacity to learn, and what's more it shows that you have the persistence to accomplish a goal...Just think about it with an open mind, I think you'll see my point.
Responses? Send them to jcarter@linuxgruven.com
* Except for Linuxgruven, at least.
Plead sanity, then they'll know you're crazy...
If the company you work for is so bad, why do you stay. It pays your bills, and puts food on your table. When you stop getting a check, then you can complain. I challenge you to go into work, speak your peace, and quit. I say you don't have the guts.
Don't be upset with us just because we have an I.T. job and you don't. All we are doing is defending the company. We do this not because we have to, but because we want to. We want the company to be successful. If it is, then we are.
JEEZ, I hope nobody gets this far. There are some really badly negative egos out there. I thought this was the "open-community"? I thought Linux is the future. I thought starting up a company can be rough.... I know Denver has the fastest growing new Linuxgruven office. I know I'm glad to be there. I started working with Linux in September - never touched it prior. I have 14 years IT background as Admin and Engineer. I have always been the go-to guy. It has been a hugely overwhelming task to get the expanses of *nix knowledge cornered well enough that I might call upon it for passage of said SAIR certification exams. That done, I continue to dig for the other 90% of the iceberg. This isn't a scam. But many whiners are left in their own drone when having to put up or shut up. I welcome that. I always have. I have always had the best, most rewarding jobs when challenged to show what I know or that I have the potential, real abilitity, to, as someone else said, RTFM. There is a lot of background one needs in this realm to be able to do that. There are no ID10T's needing hand-holding, that are supposed to be techs in the trenches with me. Thanks Linuxgruven. I applaud you. I am no whiz-kid, yet. But I will be. And I will be doing it in a free environment of sharing, comraderie, and general support (this used to be called team-work). I feel for the nay-sayers out there who probably hold the higest percentages of depression, delusion, alcoholism, family deterioration, spousal decit, hatred, and general unhappiness etc. etc. etc.: May they find another venue for spewing their merk. I never read far enough down this list of replies (I was growing ill) to see if anyone mentioned Linuxgruven's prescreening test? If you couldn't pass that, they wouldn't even take your money... Scam? You tell me. And still, of those that passed the prescreening, many still fell out like flies in a winter freeze. Hmmmm, what does that mean?... Oh, I got it. We are the elite!!!! You snobs who've been in the *nix realm for years and posting derogatorily here, watch out. We're coming. And the people around you are tired of your little black cloud, following them around. Bye (uh... Good-bye.) Randy Cordell LCA, CCNA, CNA Network Engineer Linuxgruven, inc.
REALLY? And i MISSED this? Dammit. I never get invited to the FUN events.
On Thursday, February 1, 2001, during an interview with Open Source Radio, Linugruven CEO Matt Porter explained the nature of Linuxgruven's business to include professional services, staff augmentation for linux and open source projects and corporate training. He stated, "...our only requirement for technical positions is that you demonstrate a proficiency for linux." He went on to say that this demonstration may be done through the Sair examination or by a test they have developed internally.
In regards to training fees, Mr. Porter went explained that one received 80 hours of training in one month, unlimited lab use during that month, continued access to the lab for another 6 months as well as 6 months of technical support. Porter went on to emphasize that their training program is not a requirement of employment.
When asked about a potential lawsuit from Sair, Mr. Porter responded, "From what we know, there is no lawsuit between Sair and Linuxgruven." He went on to say that he has been in contact with the president of Sair's parent company and that they hope to meet in the near future to discuss "...the whole subject." Porter also said that if it is discovered that Linuxgruven has done something wrong they will admit it and state "...here's how we are going to fix it."
Mr. Porter dismissed rumors of hostilities between the companies, saying, "We are not trying to be completely hostile companies and just go after each other and dig our nails into each other."
The interview in it's entirety can be heard during the rebroadcast of the Open Source Radio Show at www.opensourceradio.com. This rebroadcast will continue to be played through the afternoon of Feb. 8. Check the schedule for details.