There's been a thread in comp.emacs.xemacs about that over the past week or so.
It doesn't look especially hopeful, which is really a shame. Competing projects are all well and good to a point; when they are as similar as gnu emacs and xemacs are, it becomes wasteful.
When xemacs 21.0 comes out (RSN) I'm afraid that I will probably defect from using gnu emacs and switch to it. It's still Free Software, and it has a lot more features. *sigh* I really do want to be loyal to the FSF, but they make it difficult at times.
This is kind of off topic, but.. I heard an advertisement on the radio about a year ago, where they offered to name a star after someone in return for a donation to research causes.
Anyone know more about this? I think I would be interested.
I used to code BSD style (and before that, GNU style. Love the FSF, but their indentation style causes nightmares.). I switched to 1TBS because there are only so many lines of code you can fit into an emacs buffer. Every extra line helps.
I still think that BSD style brace placement is better aesthetically, and if I ever had an infinite monitor, I would revert to it.:) Until I get that infinite monitor, though, I'll economize where I can, and live with the slightly less pretty 1TBS.
Curious -- What is the average number of loads per day? Also curious -- what are some of the really flagrantly abusive numbers like? How many times do they load per day?:)
That's just BS. Cut and paste in X sucks. It's works OK for some apps -- a simple highlight to copy is fine (most of the time), but that won't work with netscape (and probably other motif apps). You have to go use the menus. Sometimes, copying from the Edit menu doesn't even work. And of course, you don't find this out until you've switched 3 desktops away, hit the middle mouse button, and out pastes the last thing you had highlighted somewhere else. Arg!
I'd (probably inaccurately) estimate that about 1/3 of the copying and pasting I do while using X involves taking URLs and opening them in netscape. Face it; it's a PITA. It's probably the single biggest weakness of X.
I've heard that RMS has plans to update the GNU GPL in some minor ways. When the second version of the GNU GPL was written, the Internet wasn't being used nearly as widely; the GPL supposedly will be modified in ways that reflect that, eg explicitly stating that making your source available over FTP is OK.
I can't even imagine RMS changing the GPL in its intent, though.
"I might add one thing, they state that a user should be able to modify the program and keep it to themselves, without even mentioning their existence to anyone else. Is this not, however, completely contrary to the idea of free software, where everyone contributes? I smell hypocrisy."
I see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's a case of hypocrisy. Say, for example, you have a program that you use, and you customize it by adding some hard coded values into the source code. (You might do this to speed some things up, or to workaround some problems with your setup, or whatever.) These values would be specific to you, but probably useless for virtually everyone else. Why should you make that public? Why would anyone want you to?
On the other hand, if you make some in-house changes that other people might find useful, it's probably in your own best interests to release them. Other people might pick up on them and take them further; everyone would benefit from this.
Question: Does Symantec make much of anything other than virus scanners and recovery tools? Possibly some development tools? In any case, it doesn't seem like there'd be much of a market for their stuff on Linux -- AFAICT, they make the bulk of their money on the unreliability of MS and Apple OSs.
WRT Microsoft, remember that $1 millin/day fine that Janet Reno announced a while back? What happens if they lose the trial? Will they have to pay it, retroactively? (It's not too big of a deal for MS financially, but it would be a nice slap in their face, anyways.)
Hey, isn't a guy from DH Brown going to be in that panel with the MS Drone, Linus, and Maddog?
It could be interesting, but I don't know. Linus and Maddog are engineers (I think Maddog is, anyways), while the other two are not. Somehow, I doubt they'll be speaking the same language. (This happens a lot when people whose opinions on some issues are so different.)
Do they really have the resources to do that? Don't forget that adding more programmers to a late software project very commonly will only serve to make the project even later.
Somehow, I doubt Steve Case has ever heard of Frederick Brooks, much less read MMM.
At this point, I think that the best thing for Mozilla would be to keep it as it is; it won't get better by having AOL become more involved with it. It'll get better when more people see a useful product and want to start hacking on it. I think their best move is to just keep moving along as they are. If they (the people actually doing the coding) persevere, things can and will get better.
Gotta love Walter Slovotsky.:) I like the one that goes something along the lines of "It ain't over till it's over, and maybe not then, either." It's been true for me so many times.:)
Well, I know two people who have bought DVD drives. One of them travels to Germany and Egypt every other month or so. I don't remember whether Germany and Egypt are in the same zone or not, but even having two zones to deal with is two zones too many, especially since he probably would try to legitimately buy a DVD in Germany and be ticked off when it didn't work.
> DVD: Your DVD discs are playable on any > computer's DVD-ROM player.
While divx sounds pretty horrible, lying about the product you support isn't good. If you buy a Zone 1 DVD, you can only play it on a Zone 1 DVD player.
I think they both *stink*. Maybe if there werent' such onerous restrictions, DVD would be cool, but really, it's just the lesser of two evils.
Just because you're on the Right Side (tm) and are in favor of the Right Thing (tm), it doesn't give you the right to lie about it. And DVD isn't even Right (tm)!
The most popular TV shows are always on Thursday nights. Seinfeld wasn't always on Thursdays, after all. Remember the original Cosby Show? For that matter, remember when the Simpsons went on Thursdays for a while?
Apparently, Thursdays are statistically the nights when people have the least stuff to do, and that's why the more popular good shows are on then.
Nah, we don't need no steenkin' compilers, right? And without compilers, we don't need no steenkin' debuggers.
And we don't need any of the GNU tools that are generally regarded as superior to the competition, because Free alternatives to these exist, and we're kind of annoyed with RMS so we should go and spite him, right?
And we're sure that nobody gives a damn about the FSF, because only a few commercial companies sprang up mainly to support GNU software before Linux was even started!
Ok, good; I just wanted to make that clear.
The people who have written GNU have done so not just because they like technology, but because they believe in what they're doing. They want to make the world a better place. They have a mission, and they want to further that mission. They've also done a lot of work worthy of credit; by demanding credit for the work they've done, they're both trying to get what's due to them as well as trying to further their cause. Both are worthwhile goals.
Having said that, there are certainly things that he FSF could and should have handled better; pushing acceptance of the GNU/Linux label is only one such thing (although probably the the most noticable and noisiest one, since it tends to attract a lot of semi-clued people into the fray). Jonas' article here certainly could have been better written; the XFree bit was definitely a mistake.
What frustrates me is that most of us generally want the same thing, but we still can't agree how what the best way of going about getting it is.
One night many years ago, I had a dream where I made a light saber in wood working class. It's been seven or eight years since I've had shop class. Anyways, in the dream, my lightsaber wouldn't cut anything, but it would melt wood. It was a weird effect, to say the least.:)
Man, I have no idea!:) I've been wondering the same thing for quite some time, asked around a bit, and never got any answers.
I just hope that Harmony doesn't end up being sucked into what looks like a project black hole at Yggdrasil. Back about two years ago, Yggdrasil "took over" the development of the Arena web browser (anyone remember that?), and nothing's come of that. Over a year ago (Feb 1998), they opened their "Ground Zero" software repository. It sounded like a cool idea, but I never heard anything about it again. (I found something dated from June 1998 after poking around a little bit.) In their Products/ subdirectory, we can see this somewhat dubious message: "Coming Soon!!! Linux Internet Archives - Winter 1995".
I think they still sell the Linux Bible, but AFAIK, it's just a collection of HOWTO documents culled from the LDP -- back in 1996 or so!
So, yeah, I'm pretty mystified. Anyone else know anything?
Mmmmhmm, good idea. 'Course, it would take a lot of time going through various media sources. I mean, how long ago did he say that oft quoted nonsense about 640k being enough for anybody? I bet there are other gems further back in the mists of time (ha!), and a helluva lot between then and now.
Speaking of quotes, there is a list of Linus and Linux related quotes somewhere on the net. (Can't remember exactly where.) And, damn, some of them are FUNNY!:)
Slashdot Mirror
There's been a thread in comp.emacs.xemacs about that over the past week or so.
It doesn't look especially hopeful, which is really a shame. Competing projects are all well and good to a point; when they are as similar as gnu emacs and xemacs are, it becomes wasteful.
When xemacs 21.0 comes out (RSN) I'm afraid that I will probably defect from using gnu emacs and switch to it. It's still Free Software, and it has a lot more features. *sigh* I really do want to be loyal to the FSF, but they make it difficult at times.
This is kind of off topic, but.. I heard an advertisement on the radio about a year ago, where they offered to name a star after someone in return for a donation to research causes.
Anyone know more about this? I think I would be interested.
I used to code BSD style (and before that, GNU style. Love the FSF, but their indentation style causes nightmares.). I switched to 1TBS because there are only so many lines of code you can fit into an emacs buffer. Every extra line helps.
:) Until I get that infinite monitor, though, I'll economize where I can, and live with the slightly less pretty 1TBS.
I still think that BSD style brace placement is better aesthetically, and if I ever had an infinite monitor, I would revert to it.
Curious -- What is the average number of loads per day? Also curious -- what are some of the really flagrantly abusive numbers like? How many times do they load per day? :)
Of course you mentioned emacs. It does everything. :))
Also be sure to have a look through the LDP howtos -- there is an Emacsspeak howto. Should be handy.
It's this kind of story that really enforces one's belief that working for yourself can only be a good thing.
That's just BS. Cut and paste in X sucks. It's works OK for some apps -- a simple highlight to copy is fine (most of the time), but that won't work with netscape (and probably other motif apps). You have to go use the menus. Sometimes, copying from the Edit menu doesn't even work. And of course, you don't find this out until you've switched 3 desktops away, hit the middle mouse button, and out pastes the last thing you had highlighted somewhere else. Arg!
I'd (probably inaccurately) estimate that about 1/3 of the copying and pasting I do while using X involves taking URLs and opening them in netscape. Face it; it's a PITA. It's probably the single biggest weakness of X.
I've heard that RMS has plans to update the GNU GPL in some minor ways. When the second version of the GNU GPL was written, the Internet wasn't being used nearly as widely; the GPL supposedly will be modified in ways that reflect that, eg explicitly stating that making your source available over FTP is OK.
I can't even imagine RMS changing the GPL in its intent, though.
I see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's a case of hypocrisy. Say, for example, you have a program that you use, and you customize it by adding some hard coded values into the source code. (You might do this to speed some things up, or to workaround some problems with your setup, or whatever.) These values would be specific to you, but probably useless for virtually everyone else. Why should you make that public? Why would anyone want you to?
On the other hand, if you make some in-house changes that other people might find useful, it's probably in your own best interests to release them. Other people might pick up on them and take them further; everyone would benefit from this.
Question: Does Symantec make much of anything other than virus scanners and recovery tools? Possibly some development tools? In any case, it doesn't seem like there'd be much of a market for their stuff on Linux -- AFAICT, they make the bulk of their money on the unreliability of MS and Apple OSs.
WRT Microsoft, remember that $1 millin/day fine that Janet Reno announced a while back? What happens if they lose the trial? Will they have to pay it, retroactively? (It's not too big of a deal for MS financially, but it would be a nice slap in their face, anyways.)
Hey, isn't a guy from DH Brown going to be in that panel with the MS Drone, Linus, and Maddog?
It could be interesting, but I don't know. Linus and Maddog are engineers (I think Maddog is, anyways), while the other two are not. Somehow, I doubt they'll be speaking the same language. (This happens a lot when people whose opinions on some issues are so different.)
Relax. English isn't C or Perl, but it is certainly allowed to borrow some stuff from it occasinoally.
Besides, we all know it's true; whether you follow perfect C or Perl grammar isn't, in this case, all that important.
Somehow, I doubt Steve Case has ever heard of Frederick Brooks, much less read MMM.
At this point, I think that the best thing for Mozilla would be to keep it as it is; it won't get better by having AOL become more involved with it. It'll get better when more people see a useful product and want to start hacking on it. I think their best move is to just keep moving along as they are. If they (the people actually doing the coding) persevere, things can and will get better.
Gotta love Walter Slovotsky. :) I like the one that goes something along the lines of "It ain't over till it's over, and maybe not then, either." It's been true for me so many times. :)
Well, I know two people who have bought DVD drives. One of them travels to Germany and Egypt every other month or so. I don't remember whether Germany and Egypt are in the same zone or not, but even having two zones to deal with is two zones too many, especially since he probably would try to legitimately buy a DVD in Germany and be ticked off when it didn't work.
> DVD: Your DVD discs are playable on any
> computer's DVD-ROM player.
While divx sounds pretty horrible, lying about the product you support isn't good. If you buy a Zone 1 DVD, you can only play it on a Zone 1 DVD player.
I think they both *stink*. Maybe if there werent' such onerous restrictions, DVD would be cool, but really, it's just the lesser of two evils.
Just because you're on the Right Side (tm) and are in favor of the Right Thing (tm), it doesn't give you the right to lie about it. And DVD isn't even Right (tm)!
The most popular TV shows are always on Thursday nights. Seinfeld wasn't always on Thursdays, after all. Remember the original Cosby Show? For that matter, remember when the Simpsons went on Thursdays for a while?
Apparently, Thursdays are statistically the nights when people have the least stuff to do, and that's why the more popular good shows are on then.
No credit, huh?
Nah, we don't need no steenkin' compilers, right? And without compilers, we don't need no steenkin' debuggers.
And we don't need any of the GNU tools that are generally regarded as superior to the competition, because Free alternatives to these exist, and we're kind of annoyed with RMS so we should go and spite him, right?
And we're sure that nobody gives a damn about the FSF, because only a few commercial companies sprang up mainly to support GNU software before Linux was even started!
Ok, good; I just wanted to make that clear.
The people who have written GNU have done so not just because they like technology, but because they believe in what they're doing. They want to make the world a better place. They have a mission, and they want to further that mission. They've also done a lot of work worthy of credit; by demanding credit for the work they've done, they're both trying to get what's due to them as well as trying to further their cause. Both are worthwhile goals.
Having said that, there are certainly things that he FSF could and should have handled better; pushing acceptance of the GNU/Linux label is only one such thing (although probably the the most noticable and noisiest one, since it tends to attract a lot of semi-clued people into the fray). Jonas' article here certainly could have been better written; the XFree bit was definitely a mistake.
What frustrates me is that most of us generally want the same thing, but we still can't agree how what the best way of going about getting it is.
One night many years ago, I had a dream where I made a light saber in wood working class. It's been seven or eight years since I've had shop class. Anyways, in the dream, my lightsaber wouldn't cut anything, but it would melt wood. It was a weird effect, to say the least. :)
Man, I have no idea! :) I've been wondering the same thing for quite some time, asked around a bit, and never got any answers.
I just hope that Harmony doesn't end up being sucked into what looks like a project black hole at Yggdrasil. Back about two years ago, Yggdrasil "took over" the development of the Arena web browser (anyone remember that?), and nothing's come of that. Over a year ago (Feb 1998), they opened their "Ground Zero" software repository. It sounded like a cool idea, but I never heard anything about it again. (I found something dated from June 1998 after poking around a little bit.) In their Products/ subdirectory, we can see this somewhat dubious message: "Coming Soon!!! Linux Internet Archives - Winter 1995".
I think they still sell the Linux Bible, but AFAIK, it's just a collection of HOWTO documents culled from the LDP -- back in 1996 or so!
So, yeah, I'm pretty mystified. Anyone else know anything?
Geez, invoking Godwin's law so early on?
Mmmmhmm, good idea. 'Course, it would take a lot of time going through various media sources. I mean, how long ago did he say that oft quoted nonsense about 640k being enough for anybody? I bet there are other gems further back in the mists of time (ha!), and a helluva lot between then and now.
:)
Speaking of quotes, there is a list of Linus and Linux related quotes somewhere on the net. (Can't remember exactly where.) And, damn, some of them are FUNNY!
There is an option to see highest scored posts first, one for newest posts first, and one for oldest posts first.
:)
You forgot the option to see the lowest scores first!!
DOH!
Um, yeah, you. :)
Client: Act like an asshole, and do some damage to society while you're at it. [Face it, that happens a lot.]
Me as a lawyer: No. My scruples won't allow something that wrong.
If more lawyers had those scruples, the world would be a much nicer place. It's really not the people who are behind it.
There is a law student who is active on the Debian mailing lists, and I think I've seen him post on slashdot before, too.
;-)
His name's Nate, iirc.
He even seems like a nice guy. And a future lawyer. Go figure.