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Segfault and User Friendly threatened
Blank Space wrote in stating
"Someone claiming to be representing a corporation has
demanded that Segfault and UserFriendly
remove parodies using its trademarked name from their sites."
Anyone know which corporation?
In other nonsense today,
Niels Provos writes
"Theo de Raadt, OpenBSD Project leader, is being threatened
with legal action if he does not turn over his
domain theos.com
to the Theos Software Corporation (the proud makers of a
new 32-bit OS that can support more than 200 users at the same time!).
The said company only needed about three years to find out about it
and are so gracious to offer $35 as compensation, so
that he can register another domain." Theo de Raadt provides
contact information on his website.
it's mircosoft...i know it....the whole starwars spoof on ms in uf's cartoons around the end of november.......screw microsoft
According to the Jargon File, Death Star is a nickname for the logo of a certain telecommunications company..
what about my probably right????
Well, the name `Death Star' also used to be employed when referring to AT&T's logo. I have no idea what AT&T could have against UF & SF, though...
Frank (not AC, but no password either)
Just be careful when you send it to the bit bucket. A friend of mine owns the bitbucket.net domain name. It's just a personal domain name, and doesn't even have a web site, but he gets all sorts of junk mail destined people who use something@bitbucket.net as an anti-spam email address.
So, please, puh-lease, don't use an @bitbucket.net email addy to stop spam.
Yup!, have to agree...
They even ADMIT that by the letter of the law, he's protected. Since when have you ever heard a lawyer argue by anything *BUT* the letter of the law?
FUCK YOU whoever you are!
The company I work for recently (today) bought a domain from somebody who had thought to register it before us. Lawyers involved? no. Just the CEO of our company calling up some random guy and offering him five hundred dollars, the bidding went to five grand and it was a done deal. Everybody was happy, and it cost the same as about ten hours of lawyer time or so. Not bad
Sure in the US but maybe not in Canada, (where I believe Illiad is based). In Australia where I am there is no parody defence and libel and defamation greatly favours the rich or powerful corporations. Even truth is not a defence under our legal system in defamation cases. Canada has the same legal heritage as us ( British common law) and may have similar defamation laws. Worrying but true. ;)
AC - In case I can be sued for this
Looks a lot like the logo of a certain company that doesn't like to peer with little guys.
It's Bob McLoney from Little Shiteland Arkansas!
Remember the SegFault article that made fun of AOL and their users? THATS HIM SUING!
;)
First, they say they admit that he chose theos.com based on his own name.
Next they say they'll pay for him to register an laternate name "not contianing theos".
Huh?
Life must be hell when someone else has trademarked your name. Maybe I should name my son Walt Disney just get a certain company's goat.
neither segfault nor userfriendly are in the USA
Ummm... Actually somebody does own linuxsucks.com
Having already been burned today by a ZDNET April Fool's prank - microphones in computers, indeed - I smell a bit of FUD being dumped on Microsoft's doorstep.
At this very moment, Microsoft's PR people are probably resting their voices and taking bicarb against the moment CNN asks them about the reports of a lawsuit jamming their electronic mailbox.
MS suing websites only visited by people who already hate them, and probably completely unknown to their target market (90% of the planet?). That would be a bit like Bill Clinton publicly going after Matt Drudge the first day the Drudge Report brought up Monica.
Keep on slogging, Illiad.
Mitch M. (the guy with the cracked sysadmin, if you're reading this).
And that would explain death STAR, but I really doubt that Sun would sue. They're too busy writing top-ten lists.
I wonder how much it would cost for
news.com
or
biteme.com
Those could cost Theos Software(TM)(R)(C)(BH) a pretty penny.
I'm a .net because I obviously have no organization. Plus, it sounnds better.
There are plenty of other logos in there. And I don't think Sun would get pissed because some cartoon character bought one of their workstations to impress a chick.
But look back at the whole blow up the microsoft deathstar star wars series. It is very obvious who it is. That is Microsoft.
"Sheesh thank goodness your 2 cents dont matter in this issue."
/.'ing someone just because it's unpopular here. Sorry, find your sheep elsewhere.
And what's yours worth?
"Its this kind of ignorance that make domain disputes so damn messy in the first place. This company has nary a claim to the domain and if you would actually read a little about domain ownership"
I agree that they don't have a claim, and I imagine that the original poster knew that too. So I don't think it's necessarily ignorance on *our* part.
Other than the reference to being able to get the domain name from him, which is something that they would pretty much have to bring up, I felt that it was a polite, and relatively unthreatening email. If anything Theos (the person) went off the deep end when he got the message.
Now I do wish him the best in the defense of his site, and I expect him to win. I really don't think Theos (the company) has a claim.
But I'm not going to be sucked into
"and the parties involved before forming an opinion maybe next time you could make a valid one."
Hmm, I make mine with an open mind. Maybe that's the difference.
John Waalkes
jwaalkes@edge.net
"Now, when Phallus, Inc., comes along and tries to enforce manditory circumcision, then I have a problem."
:P
Especially if it were for the second time.
John Waalkes
jwaalkes@edge.net
The letter from theos software seems to be fairly nice. Theo should just respond with a, "no, thanks."
I don't think Illiad has been in "the Unix business" for a while. I've also read every one of his cartoons. The threat *is* Microsoft.
Anyone who's been in the Unix business a while knows that the Death Star refers to AT&T. Jeff;
What would you all be saying if it was the other way around? Like, what if
someone had linuxsucks.com? Or, even worse, what if someone, bought
linux.com, and just totally bashed it?
I'd cry until my sheet were wet? I'd have recurring nightmares?
You can't be serious. History has proven that Linux can withstand a lot of bashing. Even if it couldn't, people still have the legal right to bash it.
Micro$hit invents an innovative new toilet?
Crapdoze TT?
CraptiveZ?
If I were Microsoft I'd be pretty pissed. Of course there's nothing they can do about it as other posters pointed out.
BTW, it's a funny article - worth a read.
check http://www.jokewallpaper.com/letter1.htm
There's a letter from a Netscape lawyer to www.jokewallpaper.com sent in 1996. The letter is completely the same as letters sent to segfault and user friendly.
For what it's worth, my understanding is that "www.theos.com" is running openbsd behind 128k isdn, and appears to still be chugging along.
Judging by the mail server, theos-software.com is an NT shop, and it seems their web server withstood about 30 minutes of slashdotting before going belly up.
i would imagine that what they meant in the quote about basic and C was that the development platforms for the OS are BASIC and C (ie: "look how easy it would be for you to code for our OS, you know the languages"), not that they invented them, and that it was just a case of a bad writer writing an ambiguous sentence.
on the other hand..maybe they've just been hanging out with Al Gore a bit too much.
I think 'it' in this case is correct, because our lawyer friend is refering to the limited liability entity (theos-software corp) he is representing.
Corps don't have sex.
Too many rumors (rumours) flying around today to get this figured out.
But these sites and some others that have received cease-and-desist letters are all outside of the U.S.
But Illiad has talked with his lawyers, and they don't seem worried. It may take a return letter or two to shake off these scum, but that will have to happen before it ever gets to a court. And its a smart thing to not mention the name of the bastards before it becomes a court case, or before it is dropped.
But if it does get to court, then the moment it happens, Illiad can name the death star and set up a legal defense (defence) fund. I'll be sending in my money, Illiad is a cool guy.
hm... to ./ or not ./ - is that what you wanted?
theos software, whoever is paying for lawyer, is possibly pretty desperate (sic), just for hits, attention, or whatever.
grow up mister president.
anonymous "because i am not cool" coward.
One of Clinton's WH employees, Sid Blumenthal, is suing Drudge for millions. This is the first time a WH employee has ever sued a journalist.
It concerns the contents of a police report that Drudge posted briefly, then withdrew with an apology. Suing under these conditions is also without precedent.
It would be easier to resolve if the police report was publicly available.
If it's already registered then too bad for him, go out and find another domain. Something like lameOS.org might do him good.
Could it be that this is either the same law firm,
or perhaps a standard form letter in legal circles
for this sort of thing?
No other company would do something as stupid as suing a comic strip and a low-hit satire web site. You don't see them suing The Onion do you? Some MS middle manager was probably strolling along and found his underlings reading segfault or userfriendly and got pissed and initiated the whole thing. Death Star, Evil Empire.. we're not talking about the USSR here folks. It isn't rocket science to match the nicknames to Microsoft, especially after the entire series of strips on userfriendly in november and december! ;-) Hope Illiad doesn't get in trouble for hinting TOO much with the intent of us knowing the name... is that as illegal as just saying the name of the company?
In fact.. that was a very flattering clip! ;-) He bought a high powered Sun Ultra to impress geek-girl... where is the slander in that?
Yes, this is so unlike Microsoft to do something so stupid. It would be akin to telling Gateway to not use Linux on their PIII demo servers while the DOJ suit was going on.. even MS isn't THAT stupid as to shoot themselves in the foot.
microsoft employees call themselves "Softies"?
wow.
IIRC the 'parody' defense works in Canada too; witness
such television program as This Hour Has 22 Minues.
But even if it didn't, under Canadian libel/slander
laws, you have to prove that the act caused monetary
damages (ie that it cost you business deals) - and
you have to present this evidence when you file.
16 oak-ctx-gw4.ncal.verio.net (207.21.104.67) 85.961 ms 84.856 ms 81.365 ms
17 h207-21-75-1.theos-software.com (207.21.75.1) 103.218 ms 104.162 ms 103.174 ms
18 h207-21-75-1.theos-software.com (207.21.75.1) 2905.618 ms !H * 1014.323 ms !H
This sounds a lot like the whole fuss over www.veronica.org. It's a website devoted to a little girl named Veronica, and they got sued by the makers of Archie comics, but I believe the judge ruled in favor of the kiddie. (I mean, it was her name too...)
So, theo does have a precedent.
Life must be hell when someone else has trademarked your name.
Sure. I read about a guy named McDonald who set up a small restaurant. He used his own name. Guess what happened...
Is not the Lucent Symbol Refered to as the flaming asshole?
I seem to remember reading somewhere that British courts are NOT very tolerant of frivolous lawsuits. In fact, I think I read something to the effect that if the lawsuit was found to have no merit, not only does the defendant go free, but the plaintiff has to pay for the court fees and such. Guess they picked the wrong place to have a lawsuit...
I think your guess sounds the most reasonable. I really don't like the way Lucasfilm maliciously and agressively goes after 'alleged' infringements. Anyone remember when they went after Remedy Entertainment claiming their logo was too similar to the Lucasfilm logo? Believe me, they weren't that close (they both had an 'eye' in it, that was about it). In fact, they still haven't replaced the logo. Lucasfilm felt that because they were so famous that Remedy must have copied their logo.
A few years ago some friends of mine set up a webpage devoted to some "scientific" tests they did on twinkies as a way of relieveing stress during finals (http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~gouge/twinkies.html)
Anyway, I remember they received an e-mail from someone claiming to represent Hostess foods or something. Anyway, the school made them take the site down while they got things sorted out. (nice to have a legal department around of your own). Anyway, they contacted Hostess foods directly, who told them that, not only was this the first time they'd heard about the lawsuit, but that they thought the site was pretty funny and something of a good advertisement. No follow up letters were received, and the site was promptly restored. I urge Illiad and the owners of Segfault to take the initiative and contact the "Mystery Company" directly to find out if this is a hoax or if they're being serious. A phone call to the right place could probably clear that up and might get this whole episode over with.
This reminds me of Lucasfilm threatening Remedy Entertainment with legal action because of their logo. It's very similar to what you're talking about. This time it's the notion that a well-known company is more important than a smaller company. Read the following from a press release:
A letter (dated July 9) from LucasArts'attorney, John Sullivan, of Fenwick and West LLP, claimed: "The Remedy Entertainment logo so closely resembles the top portion of the LucasArts logo, which, like the Remedy Entertainment logo, forms an eye, that, considering LucasArts' prominence in the computer game industry, it is hard to believe that the Remedy Entertainment logo was not copied from the LucasArts logo."
I can't believe it! 200 whole users? Holy cow! I absolutely *have* to see this to believe it!
Nonsense! theos.com is worth far more to Theo than it is to Theos Software. Theo is widely known as being deraadt@theos.com, having www.theos.com, etc. Theos Software has _never_ been located at theos.com.
Theos is not one of those big bad guys that is trying to bully the little guys. They just want the "obvious" website for their product. Nothing wrong with that.
What is wrong is them thinking they have a right to have the "obvious" web site for their product.
Theo got there first, and theos.com has become a part of his online identity. Theos Software can sit and spin.
Umm...
Re-read the first message that was initially sent (the e-mail message.) It outlined a proposal to transfer the domain name with re-imbursement. Sure it was a low-balled figure ($35, come on THEOS, you know better than that!), but it did not contain any threat to sue.
Now look at it from the lawyer's perspective. He sends a nice letter offering money for a domain, and the owner posts a disparing comment, the private message, and the lawyer's own e-mail address on the previously _empty_ web site. To add final insult to injury, the site owner does not respond in _any_ fashion to the request, which means that the lawyer _can't_ do his job for his client. (ie - his firm doesn't get paid/he gets fired.)
This is not to say that Theo is not entitled to his domain. I would tend to say that Theo is not infriging on their trademark, especially since the web site had been empty previous to the action. It's kinda hard to infrige on a trademark when you're not doing anything.
However, after Theo's response, I am not surprised by the lawyer's response (though I wouldn't condone it.) Posting private, legal correspondance with negative comments of the company may open Theo up for libel action (IANAL.) I think that Theo's reponse was inappropriate, and escalated the situation more than needed.
Theo won't get my sympathy, although I do think he is in the right. I would care more if Theo had responded in a more appropriate manner.
But then again, I could be wrong...
Enforced? Have you seen Network Solutions new page? You have an option of registering .net, .com, and .org by clicking a radio button or a click box. Seems to me that they are encouraging it not enforcing against it.
MS, slow as usual, just found out about the REALLY LONG Star Wars parody that UF did a couple months back. They saw the Sunday edition comic where the Death Star looked like the MSIE logo, and now they think they've got grounds, since it wasn't called "MSIE," but used the logo of MSIE. Thoughts? Flames?
Mr. Williams,
This is an obvious reaction to two court cases which allowed a company to literally steal registered domains, but be advised that this action is not going to look good for your company, and those of us on the Internet are not going to sit idly by while unscrupulous companies like yours attempt to steal property under the guise of trademark infringement. I am going to openly protest your actions on the Internet, while petitioning Congress to stop the courts from allowing this blatant violation of freedom to continue.
Sincerely,
Jason Burke
then what TLD should individuals fall under?
Remeber the Crud Puppy going over to AOL.
AOL was called "the New Evil".
...because I can't get to the article from the link. No response.
Provides the option of torturing babies with either VB (Visual Baby) Script or J (Juvenile) Script! Import tortured babies into a Word document or an Excel spreadsheet! Email baby torture to your friends using the power of Microsoft Internet Baby Torture available on MSN!
Sorry, that probably wasn't necessary. Too much coffee this morning....
I clicked the URL to Remedy and quess what?
In the upper left corner it says 'Logo removed':-)
Maybe it's a worldwide crackdown.
Remember Bloom County?
There was a strip with a very blatant parody
of the AT&T/Death Star joke. It was funny
back in... the 80's?
I don't think the comic syndicate was sued by
either Lucas or AT&T.
> Is not the Lucent Symbol Refered to as the flaming asshole?
That's the Sphincter of Quality to you.
It's not, actually - to the best of my knowledge. Illiad states in his static that he's waiting for registered mail from said company, and that on advice from his lawyers he can't reveal who it is just yet.
Anyone who follows UserFriendly and has two brain cells to rub together can figure it out though.
--Ciannait
Short answer: yes.
Back in the sixties Mad was sued by a music publishing industry group for publishing parody lyrics such as "Hello, Deli", sung to the tune of "Hello, Dolly". Mad won, of course.
I forget all the details, but it was chronicled in Frank Jacobs' book "The MAD World of William M. Gaines" (the chapter was called "Sung To The Tune Of 'Sue Me'"), which is long out of print. Pity that. If I were going to start a business I would use Bill Gaines and Jay Ward as my role models.
No! No! I said Bill GAINES! Bill GAINES!!!
Well, I verified yesterday that Illiad will be receiving a notice via certified mail as well, and he said as much on today's static.
Email is a quick way to yell at someone while you're waiting for your nasty legal letter to be delivered by the Pony Express.
Didn't Mad Magazine set a precident many years ago concerning use of trademarks/names in satire, making it legal so long as it's for the sake of satire?
Since when is E-mail the lawyer choice for official corrispondence? If you're gonna send me a cease and desist, it damn well better be on paper (I'd be willing to consider one that was digitally signed with PGP or similar products.) Otherwise it gets classified as someone yanking my chain and into the bit bucket it goes.
Come on! If you knew how many Softies read UserFriendly on a daily basis...
... and if it is us, I'll be having stern words with my boss, and his boss, and all the way up the chain, if necessary.
Quoting, roughly, a famous lawyer whose name I forget:
Mind the Gap
Truth is an absolute defense against accusations of libel and slander (i.e. defamation) under Canadian civil law, and I'm 95% sure we get that from British common law.
Think about it: the offense involved in defamation is saying something bad about someone that isn't true. If it is true, the offense hasn't been committed. Otherwise, you'd never see headlines in newspapers like Multiple-Murderer Will Appeal Conviction. "Your honour, this article clearly and deliberately puts the Son of Sam in a poor light."
Now, I believe that in the U.S. you can get away with saying untrue things if you can show that you really truly did honestly believe they were true when you published them. There's not much of a history of people managing that in Canada, as I understand it.
IANAL, BTW.
Mind the Gap
What, according to the people who were threatening you? Well, of course: they'll say anything. You wouldn't expect them to say something like, "We'd never succeed in court, so we're hereby demanding that you comply with our wishes out of fear and/or the goodness of your heart," would you?
Truth defenses (and, arguably, parody or "fair comment" -- don't know as much about them) don't make your plaintiff-to-be vanish in a puff of smoke. If successful, they make the judge in a civil trial say, "Defense succeeds, case dismissed with costs."
If you're not interested in sitting through court action, your only choice is to negotiate with your opponent. If your opponent won't budge, you have to either fight after all or give up. There is no magic.
Mind the Gap
Bah.
The First Amendment is there for a reason. Lawyers have worked hard for a long time to chip away at what it actually means. If this is Microsoft, it's probably even more stupid -- they are entirely over-protective of whatever they think even might be theirs. The right to parody exists in the United States and on the Internet. Nobody should take that away (barring of course those cases where it puts lives at risk -- yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater or joking about bombs at the airport.. *sigh*)
Put simply.... No. Parody is protected in Canada. - Adam Schumacher
I would like to clarify that I am a Canadian citizen, and was basing my original post on my understanding of Candian Laws.
- Adam Schumacher
Put simply, they cannot make them stop. Parodies have long been protected from libel/slander suits, on the grounds of fair comment. I just hope that the guys at segfault and User Friendly know that, and don't just kowtow to whatever incarnation of the evil empire threatens them now.
This would actually be the third time... remember the announcement that segfault was opening? They went down like a $2 whore.
...
(FWIW, the whole reason I posted this was so I could say "went down like a $2 whore")
do the obvious if you want to email me
- A.P.
--
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
It never ceases to amaze me that people can't even spell "/." correctly.
--
Microsoft has that Windows 2000 deadline to meet. Why don't they work on that?
He parodied them a few days ago with the "Windows 98" install strip, and give the lawyers a few days to get off their butts to get the e-mail written (give or take a day for them to get MS Exchange working properly, etc) and the timing is right...
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
On topic: not a bad idea. I think I'll see about sending the FSF some money anyway (can't say when or how much, but I mean RSN); I've always wanted to.
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
Where does that saying come from and what exactly does it mean? I know it means you're talking utter rubbish, but I'm curious about it's more specific meaning and origins.
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
Microsoft couldn't sue based on an "IE" trademark infringement, since they do not hold the trademark to either IE or "internet explorer." In fact, Microsoft itself is guilty of trademark infringement over the term and its abbreviation, and has been being sued by the trademark holder for the last few years, but their team of high-paid lawyers seems to be delaying things.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
That's Rogue Squadron. I'm not quite sure what a Rouge Squadron game would be like, but it would probably be hard to play with all the reddish tints.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
That makes sense. If it was indeed a real letter from Microsoft, I was trying to figure out where the "backhanded compliment" fit in, since nobody has paid any sort of compliments to Microsoft on either site, backhanded or otherwise.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Posted by Wayne Steele:
It seems that the folks over at Be Dope (a BeOS-centric parody site) got the same letter. There is an article on their site about it.
IMO, this points the finger right back at Microsoft. I can't imagine why AT&T or AOL would have any problem with Be Dope. Microsoft, on the other hand, has been the focus of several articles over there.
Anyway, see http://www.bedope.com/ for more details.
Posted by Wayne Steele:
Be Dope - http://www.bedope.com/ - got the same letter.
Posted by Wayne Steele:
Be Dope IS in America and they got the same letter...
http://www.bedope.com/
Posted by Wayne Steele:
Even if Sun had a reason to go after User Friendly, why would Seg Fault and Be Dope get the same letter?
Posted by Wayne Steele:
Remember... User Friendly was not the only one to get this letter. Seg Fault and Be Dope did as well. I don't read Seg Fault much, but I can say that I don't recall Be Dope ever picking on Star Wars.
Posted by robradio:
Getting embroiled with the core of the open-source community on something as petty as this, seems similar to getting involved in a land war in south-east Asia. With many of the industry's best and brightest putting their weight and wisdom behind the open-source movement, it strikes me that you may have seriously underestimated (and now offended) this community.
Make a reasonable offer for the domain name. You obviously have the money, you just chose the wrong way to spend it.
virtually,
RobRadio@thenewbreed.com
Your point is irrelavent. Free speech is free speech. That's the problem woth freedom of speech; you have to put up with opinions you don't like.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
CPT is a Ralph Nader thing. Too big for them to take down. It would get them some seriously bad PR if they try to take out a "consumer protection site."
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
If he could find lawyers to stick it out until such a suit could come to fruition, then maybe he's got a chance. They simply countersue Microsoft for all the legal fees (and he should give all his lawyers a big raise :) and for emotional distress caused by a huge corporation filing a frivolous lawsuit against him. Yeah.. I like that.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Couldn't Theo argue that since they peacefully coexisted for three years that The OS Software diluted their own trademark? His site says that they registered theos-software.com 9 months after his domain was registered. Didn't they tacitly give up the trademark by not persuing his domain then?
Although the death star reference may make it seem like Microsoft, I have yet to receive any trouble from them over kmfms.com. I've been unable to get into Segfault to try and figure out exactly what they could have said to miff MS off, but I doubt they would target parodies before going after places like yamoo or the excellent CPT's Microsoft Antitrust Page which are far more direct in their criticism.
-----
Free P2P Backup, Windows & Linux
Reagan, maybe, but not lucas.
"Evil Empire" was a reference to the Soviet Union, known in its final days as the "U.F.F.R." (Union of Fewer and Fewer Republics), originating in one of Reagan's speeches.
So maybe it's the rump Communist Party in Russia . . .
:)
Scientologists have been accused of that tactic, they have an endless supply of money and they can lose law suit after law suit and financially ruin their detractors.
The Theos one is interesting, I bet they have no case. It sounds like they were willing to compromise though. They could have theos.com and give theos.net or theos.org to Theo, right? That would seem pretty reasonable to me, the dot com addresses will always get looked up faster by the web browsers... If it's a marketing gimmick, it's brilliant becuase they have pushed the right buttons just enough to get the attention but not too much to expose their ploy. They have a legitmate concern.
Well maybe not. I have no idea where segfault is bassed but UF is based in BC Canada. While US laws protect things like this (See Faldwell vs Flynt) I have no idea where Canadian law stands.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
Well, their corporate webserver certainly can't keep up with /. effect. For those interested:
% telnet www.theos-software.com http
Trying 207.21.75.2...
Connected to theos-software.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
HEAD / HTTP/1.1
HTTP/1.0 200 OK
Server: THEO+Server/1.0
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:58:20 GMT
Content-Type: text/html
Last-Modified: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:39:12 GMT
Content-Length: 0
Connection closed by foreign host.
It took me many tries to even get in, and then I come to find out that content length is zero. Not only would I not buy their software because of their wanting to steal Theo's domain name, but it looks like they, a corporation, can't either (a) afford the hardware to power the site or (b) have a webserver on par with IIS.
I've already sent the prez there my letter.
I don't think so... from what I read, it sounds like they will allow him to register any domain name that does NOT contain Theos in it at all... therefore theos.net and theos.org are out. that's bullsh*t if you ask me, but what do I know?
jaraxle
The e-mail that was sent (an e-mail no less) contains numerous grammatical and other errors. Like
:-(
My client would also to agree to forward to you any electronic mail that it receives after the transfer that was intended for
you.
Maybe a hoax? Who knows. Damn, this kinda crap pisses me off
Life would be better if common sense were more in demand...
Anyone who's been in the Unix business a while knows that the Death Star refers to AT&T. Jeff;
No, I don't think Theo should just roll over and play dead for these guys unless its in his best interest to do so. They never asked nicely, they offered him the cost of getting a new domain name and a threat to sue if he didn't comply. This is the same level of troglodyte behaviour as Archie Comics trying to force Veronica.org into giving over their domain name. The costs for a domain name is cheap. If you want to protect your trademarks its in your best interest to register them as soon as you even think of developing a company or product. It's the guys name, he didn't try and take over their trademark. I suppose that www.john.[org|com|net] should be disallowed because it might infringe on the trademarks of Taco John's restraunts and www.tony.[org|com|net] should be disallowed because it potentially infringes on Tony Roma's rib house.
You're right that this isn't the same as toysrus being a little miffed at all the *rus domains. In this case there is some truth that the sites are trying to make use of part of the image of Toys R Us ('Backwards R' Us) that is. I still basically think they can grin and bear it. For the most part its a poor attempt at satire and comedians have been making various jokes about *rus for years.
close, but no cigar. archie comics withdrew the suit. it never went to court. we have diddly. Log
Their stories sort of match up- give you ONE guess as to WHOM since Illiad oopsed and dropped a subtle hint as to whom was persecuting them. You'd think they'd leave well enough alone considering that their PR is not anywhere NEAR the high point. The use of parody and names within the same is allowed by law- if the company pursues this little action any further than they have SegFault AND User Friendly have grounds for harassment and the damages, whoo...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Ouch...
That'd explain the Deathstar refs equally as well. Problem is, it'd be giving Lucas' companies an UGLY black eye, PR-wise with us as much as MS doing the deed would- one of the market segments they DON'T want pissed at them with the release of the movie so close would be VERY pissed off at them (I know I would be!). The net's been a large dynamic in the PR and marketing of thier latest, soon to be released, film- attacking several of the more popular sites visited by that market segment's tantamount to suicide.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Lucasfilm has a long history of defending its copyright and images fiercely. Since Lucasfilm controls all merchandising rights from the Star Wars saga, they persecute counterfitters visciously. Remember that whole "Revenge" rather than "Return of the Jedi" name-switcheroo? It was a feint to foil early counterfitters into producing incorrectly-named merchandise. (I wish I still had my pirate "Revenge of the Jedi" poster too. That ersatz print would be worth more than an original on e-bay!)
In 1984 they sued FASA over the name of their new boardgame: "Battledroids." Get this: they successfully argued that 'Droid' was their word. FASA then renamed their game Battletech.
Illiad's "Y2K: The Phantom Menace" is just enough to flip those hyperactive copyright lawyers into a sabre-rattling fit.
Possible candidates: Microsoft, Lucas or AT&T.
:-)
Lucas could be the case because of the Death Star and the Evil Empire are named, and because there was a Star Wars parody in UF. However, not one single bad word is ever spoken about Lucas or about Star Wars as a whole; all Lucas could sue Illiad on is infringement of copyright.
AT&T. The connection with the Death Star is obvious when you look at their logo. However, AT&T has afaik never been named in UF, let alone dragged through the mud.
Microsoft. First of all, Microsoft is the only company that is consistently being degraded. Furthermore, Microsoft was used as the Evil Empire and Bill Gates as the Emperor in the Star Wars parody, which firmly ties Microsoft to the Evil Empire and the Death Star. And on top of that, Microsoft is crazy enough to sue for something like this.
Ladies and gentlemen, I think the evidence is obvious. The jury can come to no other conclusion than that Microsoft is the guilty party.
)O(
the Gods have a sense of humor,
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
To err is human, to moo bovine
Nonsense. That might happen occasionally, but Illiad's portrayal of Microsoft is usually pretty accurate.
:-)
Ah, but Microsoft doesn't _want_ to be portrayed accurately
)O(
the Gods have a sense of humor,
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
To err is human, to moo bovine
Please keep comments like this to yourself! Keyboards are expensive and dont' stand up to having coke spit up onto them! :)
"from the brain-stem-humor dept"
P.S. Any misspellings or faults of grammar you think you detect are mearly transmition errors, and probably your fault a
I decry your disparaging take on what it means to be a weasel. Weasels never did anyharm to anyone. In fact, they're good for the general well being. Well, unless you're a snake or or a hare in which case your s.o.l. I guess :->
anyone running crack against the router yet?
I think I'm with you on this one.
I read the letter the lawyer sent - to paraphrase -
We don't think you registered this to cause us
grief, and we don't want to cause you any. We'll
be glad to pay you the $35 registration fee and
do the required paperwork... thanks for the
cooperation.
That just wasn't your typical "We're gonna sue you
socks off" letter from a lawyer. They offer
reasonable compensation if you are operating
from the assumption that Theo didn't register
the domain to hold them hostage. (Which I
assume is the case.)
I think Theo is probably ought to go along - I don't
see this in the same vane as the "Death Star" threat
in the other part of the thread.
Steve
Have you compiled your kernel today??
Go look at the mail the lawyer sent.
For a lawyer - the was saying "Pretty
please with sugar on top!"
Now the point made that Theo might
consider it worth more than their
offering is a valid point - and he
may very well have as legitimate a
claim to the name as the company.
On the OTHER HAND - if the company
has indeed trademarked "Theos" along
with "Theos Software" then they are
duty bound to protect their trademark
or loose it! That is the way the
law is written. Most of you folks
may be to young to remember the Xerox
trademark lawsuit... Xerox had to go to
court to keep their name trademarked,
even though for all practical purposes
the name is used to imply making a copy
(which turns out to be both a blessing
and a curse if you're Xerox..)
If the company DOES have such a trademark
then they are merely following what the
law demands they do to protect that
trademark - no more or less...and
again..the letter Theo received doesn't
come across in near the same vain as
others have received.
If he replies by offering to negotiate
because he indeed has proper rights to
the name as well -then they have a
starting point..that is okay.
I just think that villifying every
company because the are acting to
protect their name brands is silly,
especially in this particular case
where they really dont come off sounding
like a vengeful bunch -
From reading Theo's tirade - I gather he
is really out of sorts cuz they didn't
contact him personally - well, alot
of things are done by mail in business -
maybe the right way would have been a
personal phone call - If the company was
smart -they'd pick up on that detail
and continue from there. BUT I can't
fault the company for starting out this
way.
Go read their letter - see if it is comes
off in a threatening manner.
Steve
Have you compiled your kernel today??
I know that in the 1700's, truth was not a defense to libel under British common law. A Boston printer was tried for (true) libel under British common law in the 1760's. As the judge pointed out, truth is not a defense for libel.
(The lawyer thanked the judge and pointed out to the jury that they should acquit if it's true, which they did, setting up the principles of jury nullification and truth as a defense to libel under American law.)
I wonder if this is a wide spread attack on the people that are parodying this company or if it was just one lawyer with some free time and decided that he would send some nice letters to these two sites.
There is also the possibility of it being a hoax in two senses. UF and SF could have gotten together and come up with this idea just to see how the community would react. The other theory would be that someone forged an e-mail. This most likely be wrong if Illiad gets a registered letter.
I am no lawyer (or much of anything for that matter) but the fact that there not allowed to say the companies name would in my universe fall under the idea of lack of freedom of speech. I know that UF is in Canada (i don't know what their laws are about) but I don't know were Segfault is.
I read UF all of the time and enjoy it. I have not read Segfault in recent times. I would not like to see eater of them disappear or be hampered in any means and would like to have the idea that I could also create a site without having to worry about what I said about whatever be it person country or company.
Long dream Nertopia
As far as the "Death Star" reference, I'd say that this strip and those around it give a pretty clear indication as to whom he is referring.
You made up my mind.. heh..
Down with Microsoft!
Stan "Myconid" Brinkerhoff
SB.
A LITTLE MORE ON THE DEATH STAR
:)..
09:50 PST 24 MAR 1999
Hey, thanks to everyone who's written in voicing their support for UF in the upcoming litigation. I have to make a couple of things clear, however. 1) At this point I can't divulge who it is, and maybe hinting was a bad idea. 2) Media attention right now isn't appropriate, so contacting Reuters might do harm. 3) I promise to keep you all updated on this. I'm waiting for a registered letter that will confirm the e-mail. Apparently I'll be getting it soon.
THE EVIL EMPIRE HAS REARED ITS UGLY HEAD
08:25 PST 24 MAR 1999
I can not believe the e-mail I got earlier today. It's from you-know-who's legal department. For legal reasons I can't reproduce the entire letter, but here's the gist of it: "You will cease and desist all negative connotations within your cartoon regarding [our client], or we will initiate a suit to claim damages for libel and defamation." Not only does this *irk* me, I'm going to call their bluff. Don't be concerned folks; my own lawyers say they don't have a leg to stand on, but for reasons not entirely clear to me I can't mention my accusers by name until proceedings are under way. I'm sure you can figure out *who* it is I mean.
I'd assume by the first (date wise) reference that the "evil empire" is usually microsoft. But put together with the 2nd message title, "Death Star" it almost makes you think its someone associated with Starwars, and with that long segment about it, it almost makes me wonder, there havent been any Microsoft parities in a while.
Its not FreeBSD, his current parity, he has USED WITH PERMISSION stuff, and I'm sure its not one of the Linux distros
My guesses are: Microsoft or Lucus Arts...
Stan "Myconid" Brinkerhoff
SB.
Too bad Theos Software and/or A.T.&T. and/or Microsoft. :) )for support. No mention of that other company on the outside of the box at all. :)
Let's see, if this Theos thing is for real and after 3 years they're just now getting around to shopping for a netname that would officially make them the*only*software company even slower than Microsoft to notice that new-fangled internet thing.
What can you possibly say about Microsoft in parody that's more defamatory than telling the truth about them.
Speaking of A.T. & T., years ago a guy I knew told me that the nickname "Ma Bell" was originally the idea of one of their PR types, to present them in a warm friendly image (back when they were all-enveloping), but during a telcom workers strike they wore T-shirts that said "Ma Bell is a real mother..." and that killed any official support for that name.
Speaking of Lucas Arts, I bought one of their games for my nephew, it was X-wing or Tie Fighter or some such, and the Lucas Arts name and logo were plastered all over the box and shrinkwrap, but once I took it home and opened it, there was a little piece of paper saying that Lucas Arts no longer supports that particular game and to contact some company neither you nor I probably ever heard of (maybe it was Theos software
While we're on the subject, can anyone steer me to a Star Wars space battle type game that's_lots_simpler and easier without all the cryptic keyboard combinations. The kid's only 6, he just wants to grab the joystick, zoom around without crashing and shoot the bad guys with out getting shot. Come to think of it, that's the kind of game I want too.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Obviously the unit the Rouge Baron flys for :)
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Here's a letter I've sent to the parties involved.
I really would like to see a clear statement of why Theos Software thinks they have both the right and the responsibility to take action in this case. At the moment I suspect/hope if the fellow from Theos Software had to present his case without Michael's help its ethical grounds (or lack thereof) would be plain to everyone.
Michael,
I have been a client of yours for the past few years. From time to time I've asked you to review contracts for me.
I'm writing you to indicate my profound displeasure upon hearing that you are personally involved in a matter against another personal acquaintance of mine, Theo De Raadt, in the action described on his web site (http://www.theos.com). Theo is a person of remarkable integrity and ability whose efforts over the past several years have benefited a large number of people.
Based on my past experience with him, I'm strongly inclined to believe the information he has presented on his web site. And based on my experience with you, someone whose legal and ethical judgement I've come to trust, I'm inclined to believe you would not take part in this kind of action if things are as Theo's site suggests.
Unfortunately, I haven't found any clear statement of your client's position on his site. So, in absence of information, it is my theory that there is either some sort of confusion here or that your client must have some evidence Theo's site has not presented that would explain why legal action is appropriate in this case or perhaps both.
So my question to you and your client is: can you direct me to a website where I can read your statement of your reasons for consdering bringing legal action against Theo? If you do I promise you I (and others) shall read it carefully without prejudice before considering what steps we should take.
Should your client remain silent on this issue, I would have no recourse but to believe Theo's version of these events in which case I would feel obligated to do what I could to oppose this action.
Regards,
Cimarron Taylor
cimarron@taylors.org
CC: Theo De Raadt, Tim Williams
Anonymous Female wrote:
Not an entirely hypothetical situation. Have you seen linux.org or linux.net lately? Ever? One is in frames (puke) and is owned by a guy who hypes Windows NT "solutions". The other is an embarrassment to the community of Linux users and developers, and owned by a guy who tried to get big software companies pay a fee to him and his (NT vendor) business partner so that they could set the standards for Linux.
There are some differences. Linux is not a company. Linux is (probably) not anybody's first name.
There's also a difference between the way the "Linux" TLD owners are treated and the way the holder of the theos.com domain is being treated. IIRC, linux.com went for a whole lot more than $35--even though it was not sold to the highest bidder. Linus has gone after unauthorized, misleading use of the Linux trademark. But though many people think the current use of the Linux TLDs is a shameful waste, you don't see lawyers hounding the owners to fork them over.
theos.com is named after the guy who owns it. Yet three years later, some software company thinks his personal name is an infringement of their trademark! And they sent him a laughable cease-and-desist letter.
Personally, I think Theos Software should rename their company, lest they offend the Almighty. "Theos" is the Greek word for "God," see, and God might not be too happy with trademark infringement either. ;-)
How is it dissimilar? Company A is currently threatening legal action against individual B for their unrelated, non-profit domain, which happens to match Company A's tradename.
.net, and .org) was actually enforced. (Ie, if you're a for-profit business, you cannot register a .org...if you're not for profit, you cannot register a .com, etc.)
Add to this the fact that theos-software.com has happily co-existed with theos.com for three years now, and you've got a company who is gambling with a lawsuit on the chance that they just migh win.
While I understand that there is no easy answer to this problem, I think there would be far fewer problems if there A) existed a TLD exclusively for personal web pages, and B) the distincitons between the TLDs (.com,
Of course, we all know that NSI will do that the day pigs learn to fly through hell's Winter Wonderland Family Theme Park.
It's getting to the point where soon parents will be trademarking the names of their children and sueing other parents for infringement.
Ok. I've said my piece.
"What do you mean, invalid parameters? 9000Gigs of RAM and it can't answer a simple question!" -- Earthworm Jim
Would be any of the Rebel Assault family. From what I've seen they are totally arcade with very little in the way of mission restriction and other features common in more in depth games like X-wing and it's family.
Several unofficial userfriendly.org mirrors have been setup - portal available at: http://uf.lart.org.uk/ Greets to #unix, and thanks to 'Pink' for the previously archived strips :^))
-=[| synak |]=----------
"Our proposal is that if you transfer your domain name to my client, it would reimburse you for the cost of registering any new domain name that does not contain "theos", as well as for any costs associated with that transfer."
:) ) Just gotta make sure that ya put in there the line would be paid for for 3 full years to make up for the 3 years they just didnt notice the domain name. Getting a T3 to yer house would suck if you had to pay for it :)
... and missing.
Hmmm... well, switching to a new domain name hosted from his house on that T3 line with the slew of Alphas behind it would count as an associated cost associated with the transfer. (or the hardware of your choice, I'm not trying to start a flame war on what the best OS/Hardware is
Perhaps he should propose this back at them. If they dont do it (which I seriously doubt they would), nothing is lost. But if they DO do it... COOL.
---------------------------------------
The art of flying is throwing yourself at the ground...
Paraody is protected by the constitution if I'm not mistaken. If not, almost every joke make on Times, Newsweek, CNN and blah would have to be censored. This is totally insane.
If M$shit is behind this, I'd be deeply distressed. If they really think they can get away with soemthing of this nature, bill gates should be put behind bars.
--
Sheesh thank goodness your 2 cents dont matter in this issue.
F /...
Its this kind of ignorance that make domain disputes so damn messy in the first place. This company has nary a claim to the domain and if you would actually read a little about domain ownership and the parties involved before forming an opinion maybe next time you could make a valid one.
---
Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
--- I do not moderate.
So if there is protection for parody, and
an adverse attorney knows this yet threatens
legal action, has he opened his client to
action by doing so? Perhaps they have exposed
the achilles heel that will be their undoing.
Could this be the one, seemingly tiny, error
in their judgement that finally costs them the
farm? Make it so!
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Where is the follow-up. C'mon we're used to
things happening FAST.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
hahahaha. must be a pretty robust OS.
Hey! It can handle 200 users!
What, Lucasfilm defend things agressively????
Never!
If it is LucasFilm, I think I'll be writing a nicely worded letter to George...
Parodies are protected by law for a reason...
oh well.
Keep in mind that Segfault is in the UK. I don't know what the laws are like over there, but they seem to do a lot of parodies on British TV. Hopefully, the British aren't as accepting of worthless lawsuits as we in the US are.
Well theos-software.com is down. theos.com is still up. I just wrote to both lawyers/ceo and Theo, theo replied in about two minutes. He's up working at 4am. He said that by his count theos-software has 52 emails to read tomorrow, judging by those who have emailed him. I'd prefer it to be 52,000 myself ;)
Ok, own up. Who broke their site? Guess "theos" isn't quite as robust as they would like.
Xwing is pretty good. Turn on the invulnerability option.
The thing that really annoys me about the Theos thing is the assumption in the email that his, or my, name is worth nothing, and a companies name is worth everything. The whole assumption that a company (an amoral entity) has more right to use my name than me is really offensive.
the last time CmdrTaco posted a story from segfault, something about top 10 slashdot flame comments or something that was on segfault.. boom within minutes :)
-- adraken
but, if this is true and illiad does recieve a registered letter from their lawyers, he's going to beat this easily...
it was proved in the flynt vs. falwell case (this is from someone's post in segfault.org before i hit the back button and segfault.org was /,'ed to hell) that parodies were protected, and corporations couldn't do much about it...
We really need a legal expert around here. lawyer or law student, whichever
p.s. if microsoft could really do this, i don't know why saturday night live isn't off the air yet. have you noticed their blatant use of real shows' title screens/logos? (like biography!), oh boy...
p.p.s. this is probably a hoax, if it becomes public on the mass media, (and confirmed) this would be another dumb-thing-that-ms-did story. sigh
-- adraken
from www.theos-software.com:
:BASIC and C programming languages to write :literally thousands of business software :applications
:For years, developers have used THEOS Software's
Wow, I wonder if K&R are going to be sued next for infringing on the rightfull owner of C?
From what I can see I wouldn't trust this lying bag of sh*t excuse for a company to write a small javascript much less an os.......
just my $.02
chris
Segfault is in the UK. UF is in Canada. The first amendment doesn't apply to them. Also, from what I've heard, the British courts take a very dim view of frivilous lawsuits, so segfault is probably safe. (and could possibly make a few bucks off a counter-suit) I don't know much about Canadian fair use/parody laws, but I suspect its something close to ours. If so, {mystery company} hasn't got a chance of winning. If illiad loses there, he can always move UF to a server here in the states, and fight them with legal precedent on his side.
I suspect that if this isn't just a hoax or an empty threat, the case will be thrown out of court so fast Bill's head will spin.
0 1 - just my two bits
My company is named Slashdot Software!
I command you to give me your hostname!"
I'll donate; I'll volunteer.
Now the beginnings of an OpenLaw organization can begin to sprout, as I predicted many months ago.
If there are lawyers who read this post, email me.
I have ideas... Internet kills law firms... True virtual organizations take over...
I'm your worst nightmare buddy...
raaaaaaaahhhhh!
see?
Wassup?
;)
email me...
PEACE...
Yeah I can be an asshole 1) when I get paid to; or 2) when I get units for it.
What people seem to forget is that it's the clients that say 'act like an asshole' and the lawyer HAS to say 'how wide?' (to an extent).
For every dickhead lawyer, there's a an every nastier SOB client. It's what I have eruditely deemed that asshole-dickhead yin-yang universal reem-job. You don't have to travel to outer space for this one ladies and gentlemen...
The inflammatory comments I made were not really intended to be taken seriously.
I agree with you that lawyers should not do whatever the client wants.
I'm my own person and can't change for damn near anybody (except my mama and my woman).
Indeed, I don't know who the moron that got the idea of suing segfault/UF was, but they managed to forget at least two principles:
Even if they were suing simply as a way to "win-by-bankrupt", they should be careful. The thing that this company seems to forget is that it's becoming much simpler these days to counter-sue for malicious damages. The courts are very receptive to summary judgments in cases like this, and, depending on the judge, I wouldn't be suprised if it's thrown out immediately, and counter damages awarded without even a basic trial. I'd really like to see Illiad and Segfault make a bundle off of them.
By the way, the "Death Star" thing actually got me to thinking of AT&T, even before LucasArts. Getting old....
-Erik
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
Only by doing so can we ensure that they will be subjected to the appropriate public ridicule for their inappropriate use of legal harrassment to get their way on the Internet.
Let's get that information soonest, guys. Whoever knows the folks at Userfriendly and Segfault should convince them to post the harrassing correspondence.
Sounding more and more likely to me.
But then again they went down so hard that I can't even read the story.
Hehe.
This sig is false.
:-)
This sig is false.
I dont have a big problem with "theos" asking for "www.theos.com". Of course, the "we-re gonna sue yor pants off" rhetoric is not very cool, but it's how these guys work. For them, it's messed up if someone actually does something just because you asked nicely. As for the $35, just be happy they arent jumping up and down like little brats saying - "my lawer will show YOU!".
This is not close at all to "archie -> veronica" or "toyrus -> *rus". I think whoever owns "theos" should just a nice person and give it.
Just my 2 cents
-Laxative
Um, I'm a student in university in Canada. I didnt even hear of theos before this. I'm not plugging. I have no special interest in this case. I'm not saying theos has a claim to theos.com, I'm just saying that he should be a nice guy - maybe negotiate a higher monetary payment. The right thing to do is just give theos the domain.
theos is not behaving childishly at all, their e-mail is very polite, and they offer what they think is a good enough monetary compensation. If "theo" does not like that, he should negotiate. Of course, it is entirely his choice to not even talk to theos, but then it will be HE who will be behaving childishly. Theos is not one of those big bad guys that is trying to bully the little guys. They just want the "obvious" website for their product. Nothing wrong with that.
Dont get offended too easily.
-Laxative
While I am going on as little info as everyone else, I would bet that Lucas Arts, Lucasfilm, etc. do not play any part here. After all, the hint from Illiad included a quote about "negative connotations within your cartoon regarding [our client]." This, coupled with UserFriendly's stance on Microsoft and the many parodies wherein they are the chief "victim," if you will, lead me to believe that it is Microsoft.
As far as the "Death Star" reference, I'd say that this strip and those around it give a pretty clear indication as to whom he is referring.
Yet I do not see the motive behind this move as UserFriendly is not exactly an unknown site, and it is well known that the Open Source community tends to protect its own. Legally, I do not believe they have a leg on which to stand. (Though I'm not a lawyer and could be talking through my hat.) I don't see any outcome other than bad PR for them, which makes me think that perhaps an overeager member of the legal department fired this off without doing his homework.
It will be most interesting to see how this pans out. Especially when our mystery guest is revealed.
Chris
"Wherever you go, there you are."
It was for his consulting biz (ie: pre-OpenBSD).
I agree with Corey. What next?
"Excuse me, Mr. de Raadt. We regret to inform you that due to legal reasons concerning copyright infringement you will forced by our lawyers to change your first name to something like George. Sorry for any inconvenience this may cause and we will gladly pay you $35 for compensation...."
"Gee uhm.... Mom..Dad... its uh...er.. George calling... the guy formerly known as Theo...you know...your son?"
Rock on Theo.
sincerely
Doug "Flynn" Boettcher
Actually, I do remember a MS parody not long ago at all. The one about the installation time of Windows, or more appropriatlty, the Microsoft Minute.
Humph. theos.com worked fine; theos-software.com is down, "Document contains no data".
:-) Either that, or theos-software is too embarassed to let us see the page.
I guess we know whose operating system works.
D
----
True enough, but neither User Friendly nor Segfault have parodied AT&T in any way, shape or form.
I would say it's likely to be Star Wars, since they have the greatest interest in protecting their trademarks, but I would think that:
(1) Illiad et al would be at least somewhat sympathetic towards a Star Wars argument; few people that I can see have any particular animus towards SW.
(2) Illiad and Segfault have been (deservedly) relentless in attacking Microsoft, but the Star Wars references have been fairly rare, and not negative towards SW.
So I would suspect it's Microsoft, especially with the number of really rude (and stupid, in my view) Microsoft stories that appeared recently.
Still hard to believe it's either - MS has had an "embrace and extend" attitude about anti-MS sites. When I was actively running mine, I got a call from a very nice MS employee who sent me a whole bunch of MS software, gratis, in an effort to get me to change my mind. Didn't work, but I was impressed by the gesture anyway.
D
----
Neah, the real culprit is actually none other than ID Games, who're mad at Illiad for implying that losers like Stef can't play Quake - they think it might discourage the butt-kissing wannabe market from buying copies of their games.
Then again, I could just be that the food I ate thismorning was a few weeks past it's best-before date, it would explain the weird colours I'm seeing, eh?
I believe Archie comics caved long before court action (something about bad publicity from suing a 1-year old baby). Since it was settled, no legal precedent was set.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
Oh! I get it! I thought this was about OpenBSD being "The OS"
Oh well...
prosebeforehos.com
On the one hand, huge companies with large legal staffs (who therefore don't pay anything significant to use their lawyers) can kill little people by sueing them to death.
On the other hand, particularly these days in our litigious society dominated by corporations richer than most countries, courts are quite likely to award legal fees to the winner. Thus, many extremely good law firms will take up a little person's case (plaintiff or defendant) for free, hoping to be repaid if/when they win.
So which is it? If Microsoft sues me tomorrow for slander because I told my girlfriend I hate Windows, besides the prospects for summary judgement, what defense do I have? Will I be able to find a firm that won't charge me anything to lose, or could I go bankrupt defending myself from spurious charges? Any corporate lawyers out there? =) J.
If anyone cares to read the infos on aolsucks.com, they talk about their legal defense against aol. Alterations of trademarked pictures, mentioning trademarked names, it's all legal when used in parody or critisism/commentary.
-lx
I saw a pretty funny news story involving a frivolous lawsuit in the uk(i can't remember the details), but one uk government higher-up was quoted as saying something to the effect of "If we permit this kind of lawsuit to go through, we'll become as bad as America." I thought it was amusing that in other parts of the world, we're known for being sue-happy.
-lx
I thought they were just parodying Segfault...
;)
-lx
Come on - think about it. If the word got out that Microsoft is suing UserFriendly.org on basis of either some kind of a cockamamie trademark infringement, or because UF has been dumping on Billy-boy (not that I have noticed, but I haven't been reading UF for long) this would be ... can't even find a good word for it except: really bad PR.
This would be akin to Bill Clinton suing Mad-TV for those wickedly funny Will Sasso skits.
Microsoft lives and dies by PR. Microsoft can't really be THAT dumb????
Can someone be kind enough to summarize the major targets that User Friendly has been mocking lately, with a brief synopsis, perhaps, of the plot?
I just remembered seeing a couple of panels a few weeks ago where one of the characters is downloading porn off the Internet.
Look at that Sun logo right there. Sun may not be too happy about their trademark in the archives, associated with net.porn.
Everything fits, except for the "Death Star" reference.
One of the newer games is very arcade like indeed. Called Rouge Squadron, availible for both win9x and N64.
sleepy
b
"Our proposal is that if you transfer your domain name to my client, it would reimburse you for the cost of registering any new domain name that does not contain "theos", as well as for any costs associated with that transfer."
As far as I can remember, 'Theos' is a greek word meaning 'God'. So Theos-Software want to lay claim to the name of God ? I'd sure like to see the letter from God's lawyer (I'm sure he could claim prior use)!
*--BigMan--- Time flies like an arrow.. but personally I prefer a nice glass of wine!
Sorry folks, but an individual shouldn't have a .COM domain. It just doesn't make any sense. COM is for businesses not personal home pages! (I get equally pissed when I see a business on an .ORG domain)
ORG.. or perhaps something else.. if we could break the internic monopoly.
I'm sorry to say this, but I think the time has come for some kind of fund or program to be set up so that lawyers can be hired to defend when needed against stupid lawsuits like this. I'm not sure if the comic strips would qualify for such help, but clearly the Internet is entering a new arena with different rules than what came before.
:)
Corporations with lots of money and lawyers are able to threaten and pick off small opponents on the Web like these comic strips and even individual coders or small companies. Look at all the bogus patents that have been filed lately. The terrible laws being proposed. We know most of these things are completely bogus, but who can fight them? Individual coders and small sites just don't have the money to put up even a small defense against a large corporate legal department with something to gain.
I think a legal fund needs to be set up, or even a staff that can used to challenge patents or fight off dumb lawsuits. Perhaps OSI can set up a marketing division for Open Source apps and get a cut of revenues from products that use the marketing service...the proceeds could go towards the funding of legal services, which would be available on request under certain conditions.
Microsoft is at risk because the open-source/free-software movement is changing the rules of the software business and yanking the rug out from under Microsoft's feet. But, the other side of the coin is that the new spotlight and the "mainstreaming" of open-source makes things like lawsuits and patents much more relevant to the open-source community than they used to be. The rules are changing for open-source too, and the community has to be able to respond, or it's possible that high-profile projects like GNU, Linux, KDE, GNOME and Apache won't be able to continue developing without being plagued with legalities that are like maggots on a rotting carcass.
Thanks if you're still reading. This is a lot longer than I meant it to be, but I had to get this off my chest. The rules are changing for open-source, just as the rules age changing for Microsoft et al. We know Microsoft will make some kind of response...what response will open-source make?
(Is this long enough to count as a feature?
-- John Truong
I think there are some more reasons why this could be a hoax that aren't mentioned yet: (I'm assuming we're talking about M$ here)
- there are plenty of anti-M$ sites that have much more reason to be sued. And, userfriendly is not even a anti-M$ site (although someone working at M$ might think so). There even are companies that are actually making money out of this. Check out www.winblows.com, for example. Why don't they sue them?
- We are talking about cartoons that are released months and months ago (in most cases). Why did they wait until now? Last months, there has not been much anti-M$ stuff on UF, as far as I can remember
- Even if they succeed, it would be very very bad PR for them (lawsuit?). If someone accidently notifies some newspapers of this...(hint hint)
- Even if they win, wouldn't moving the server to another country solve the problem (I'm not a lawyer at all, can anyone comment on this? Might be interesting for future lawsuits
:) - What are they trying to do? Give UF some free PR? Now nobody outside the geek-world knows about it (and those people are anti-M$ anyway). It might attract more people to UF (which is exactly what they don't want!)
(or maybe I'm just hoping it is a joke after allBtw . don't do this until it is clear that it's not a hoax!
Every expression is true, for a given value of 'true'
To tell you the truth.. I already knew who it is. It is basically Microsoft since they are cracking down quite few sites that is doing parodies of Microsoft plus those sites that likes to use Linux over MS
Microsoft really need to get their act together and realize the freedom of free speech...and basically..they cannot do anything about it.
-- Amazing how the Internet still humms along.... -- Dispite all the flaws of Micro$oft in their software!
Let's all send a little bit of money to the FSF (hey, we all know RMS wont spend it on himself ;) ), and start a lawsuit against theos software, representing Mr. de Raadt, saying that Theos software could unjustly represent mr de Raadt and his website. We will give them a chance, offering $35 to help them get a new domain name :).... :)
Why should corporations think that they deserve prefeered treatment when it comes to domain names... I can't wait for NSI to butt out of this stuff, ICANN probably wont give in to this load of bull
User Friendly is actually published in Canada, so US constitutional law may not make help much. I would hope that Canada has a similar stance with regards to parody and satire being protected, however. Of course, IANAL.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Parody/Satire is *not* a protected form of speech in Canada.
I was threatened with action last year as a result of a parody site I created (http://www.hellcanada.com) - they didn't think it was funny and I didn't have a leg to stand on...
The scary thing was that because the parody was not protected speech, I was flagrantly violating a ton of trademarks - which usually get expensive to defend....
-RWR
"Although we may build the technology that we define as tools, we must be vigilant that those tools do not define us."
It doesnt matter how their letter is worded.
In the current climate of domain dispute lawyers signal a willingness to attack an individual and go 'all the way' with an issue. Its an immediate escalation that did not need to happen.
To top it off, the 'compensation' offered is totally inadequate. It does not even COVER what Theo has spent on the internic fees alone, not to mention 4 years of hosting and maintenance as well as compensation for losing his cool domain name personally. Its totally insulting that they offered him $35 AND that they hired a lawyer to tell him.
They should be good capitalists and negotiate from the position of equals. They screwed up, they did NOT protect their trademark for the last _THREE_ years and allof a sudden its a priority. THEY BLEW IT by waiting this long. The only reason they are doing it now is that they see other companies getting away with this childish behavior ( boo hoo, we made a mistake and forgot something and do not want to pay for our mistake, boo hoo ) so they think that they can as well.
They will not. Their only way out of this is to engage Theo in a rational negotiation that is based in reality and not their particular fantasy world.
This sort of thing is not capitalism but something else entirely that I don't even have a word for.
In a true capitalistic society you do not have trademark disputes over non issues such as this and if you want something you BUY it, you don't bully people into not using items.
For example a friend of mine registered webstreetjournal.com a long time ago. The Wall Street Journal contacted him with a cease and desist. They dont WANT the domain they just dont want HIM to use it. This is de facto owenership and needs to be abolished. If you want to OWN something then you should be obligated to AQUIRE it legally By not allowing others to use such domain names you by default own it yourself.
This is wrong and needs to be fixed. ASAP.
(Assuming that Mikey$oft are the ones who (allegedly) wrote this letter, which isn't certain but does seem to have been implied...)
Let's step back and look at this for a moment, shall we?
No matter how badly they've mucked up the antitrust case in the court, Mikey$oft is not stupid. Certainly not stupid enough to pull a stunt like this.
Let's face it, this is the Land of the Free, Home of the Brave, and one of our greatest hot-buttons, as a nation, is the freedom of speech issue, especially when a Big, Evil, Nasty Corporation wants to take it away from The Little Guy. Mikey$oft might just as well adopt the slogan "We torture babies"--it could not get them too much more reviled than something of this nature.
As some of my friends have been saying...if this goes to trial, just think of the legal defense fund. Not only do sysadmins (many of whom are the strip's target audience) tend to make a fairly good income, but companies--especially Mikey$oft's competitors--will be falling all over themselves to get the positive publicity. "IBM contributes $1,000,000 to Internet Humorist's Defense Fund".
There's also the matter that this was an email--not a registered letter or other normal means by which you would think a lawyer would deliver such an ultimatum.
I'll admit, I could be wrong, and I have been before, and I'll be the first to shake my head in consternation if this is really real...but it sure smells like a hoax to me.
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
Certainly, he should be able to demand whatever he wants for the domain name, should he even choose to relinquish it at all, which is and should ever be his right
Absolutely right. It's his, rightfully so, and let him do whatever he wants. Maybe he'd sell it for a reasonable offer (he doesn't say on theos.com). They never even asked. They just had a lawyer threaten him. And don't try to make it seem nice because the lawyer used nice language... Any letter from a lawyer has teeth, as my lawyer is so fond of telling me. Getting a letter from a lawyer or law firm is a threat, it's meant to intimidate, and most times it does.
Maybe Theos Software could have offered Theo the few thousand dollars they spent in legal fees to handle this and all parties would have been happy. But as an earlier poster commented... Companies just don't think with that mentality. In the old corporate world, no one would ever just say, "here ya go, I don't need it." But in our world, that happens every day, we expect it, and our lives are better than theirs for it.
I do think the Open Source movement needs some legal help, and we'll need much more as time goes on. The more publicity we get, the more exposure we get, the more weaseley (sp?) infrastructure we'll have to support. But "lawyering up" should still be the last resort. Let's not become what we were bucking against in the first place.
and when did M$ become user friendly?
its never been and never will be.
besides.. ive never heard M$ use that phrase before.
-Z
I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. Dave, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going.
Interesting. Might you be from theos-software.com?
Explain who in their right mind, having purchased something with full intentions of using it for their own purposes, would want to give it back for a measley amount of money?
Last I checked, you bought it, it was yours. Do people come and demand that you sell them your license plates because it happens to be something they want? Comeon, get real, get a life.
Giving 'theos-software.com' a break means that ownership means nothing, and the first come first serve legacy of domain names is to be forever lost to the greed of an individual or company that says 'gimme'.
There's a behavior children embark upon that resembles this. It's called bullying and being mean and being jealous and doing anything to get what the other guy's got no matter how many dirty tricks must be played to get it.
Wow, theos-software.com lawyers must cherish childhood!
Todd Fries
I find it exceedingly hard to believe that a company which develops operating systems does not know who Theo de Raadt is. I cannot even venture a guess as to why they made the decision to threaten legal action against him and do NOT mean to imply it is for competitive purposes.
...
What infuriates me about this situation is that a company which from what I can gather is marketing an inferior product and is destined to go out of business in the near future is threatening a man who gave so much to the community. Although many people have personal grievances with Theo, few would disagree that his hard line attitude on security has benefitted both linux and the BSD's. And he is being sued by some third rate company that few have even heard of? Because their suits decided to file trademark papers, I'm sorry but this just represents all that has gone wrong over the past few years with what used to be OUR Internet.
I will refrain from bashing of the original poster, it's not his fault, if he doesn't even know who the Theo involved is
Why wouldn't they say which company was doing the threatening.? Sounds like a hoax to me.
I, for one, am far more offended by encroachments on my freedom than biased attacks on things I hold dear. Why should I give a damn if someone says "Linux sucks" or "your penis is small" as long as I am comfortable with both Linux and my penis?
Now, when Phallus, Inc., comes along and tries to enforce manditory circumcision, then I have a problem.
-tak
Honestly, "Death Star" was a nick for the logo among AT&T employees too. They had all sorts of nicknames for various logos. BTW, the incorrect logo mentioned in the Jargon File was on a lot of quasi-official AT&T stuff, mainly because a lot of the copiers at local offices were on the fritz :o)
I'd put some of the uncomplimentary names for the Lucent Technologies logo up, but I don't want to get sued. We did call the company "Aunt Lucy" however-the spinster engineer sister of Ma Bell.
BTW, does anyone know of a page listing Bell System-specific jargon? Darn there is a lot of old jargon out there, much of it still being used...
"We paid HOW MUCH for a big red 0?"
Because, well, youneverknow. What's there now is a personal site, but I was planning on doing some Web design work at the time the domain was registered. It was commercial in intent, thus the .com. I respect the original method of TLD distinctions.
'Course, I am in no way EVER going to do Web design, I know a lot of the coding but if you take a look at my site, I'm not exactly living on the bleeding edge here. I can't draw worth a darn either. Neither can a lot of so-called Web designers, but that didn't stop them!
E-commerce? Whazzat?
Wow, the "extra stoopid" of corporate America usually throw a few bucks onto the bed before they begin the nasty screw, but The OS Co. here apparently thinks they can get a free ride. I hope our friend Theo gets a lot of buckage out of these punks. Gotta hate calls from lawyers.
www.jackasscritics.com
Did you bother to do a whois on this before posting? Somebody in Massachussetts already has apotheosis.com. Besides, Internic is gone, gone....
Oh my god! I don't know (and don't really care) about we sent those e-mail. One thing is sure : they're trying to cut the freedom of speech and of opinion that is granted to every single human being born on this planet. This is ridiculous but I must agree with some of you : this is probably only an empty threat. I mean freedom of speech, be it in the form of parody or "serious" news has always been defended by the supreme court and I don't see why this should change on the web. Why should parody be forbidden on web sites but allowed on TV and in magazine?!?
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear"
For those who remember Bloom County, "Death Star" has a totally different meaning. I sugest you take a look at the AT&T logo.
I always think of AT&T when I hear of "Death Star" in refference to computing.
I checked out the User Friendly site, and Illiad was venting, also. He hinted a little more strongly at who the emails came from, and he said that he's going to "call their bluff". Should be interesting to see how this pans out...
Juiced? Or Not?
I guess this means I need to go out and register EVERYTHING that has to do with Skanky in order to keep my measly website operational. Bastards.
I just want to have fun with a cool name. I lucked out by getting it, but I know that eventually, I'm going to be in the same boat... especially by some porn place like skankyxxxtv.com or some other crap like that.
Solidarity!
Whoops.
As I was saying, reminds me of people who build a house next to an airport, then complain about the noise. Scroom. H-D tried to 'patent' the sound of a single-crankpin V-Twin, and couldn't because they've been made since 1903 and not defended. If a joke, cute. If not, definitely the embodiment of justification of a Shakespeare quote - "Kill all the Lawyers.
I turned up the brightness on my computer, but the postings aren't any smarter...
Here is the letter to segfault:
Dear Mr Remnant,
We write concerning your site, SEGFAULT.ORG, which we recently visited.
While we appreciate the humor, and the backhand compliment, we have an
obligation to protect the distinctive nature of our client's trademarks.
As we are certain you can appreciate, our clients have expended
substantial time and resources in developing the considerable recognition
and goodwill associated with their names and marks.
We understand and appreciate that parody is intended, and that parody is
permitted under the trademark laws. Nevertheless, we believe that your use
of our client's trademarks on your web site is against the spirit of this
allowance.
In the interest of cooperation, we would appreciate it if you could remove
the stories containing offending remarks against our clients, or alter
them to portray our clients in a more positive light.
I will look forward to receving your reply by March 27, 1999. Thank you in
advance for your understanding of our need to protect our client's rights.
And here's the letter from http://www.jokewallpaper.com/letter1.htm:
Dear Mr. Kremer,
We write concerning your NETSCRAPE NEGOTIATOR web site, which we recently visited. While we appreciate the
humor, and the backhanded compliment, we have an obligation to protect the distinctive nature of the NETSCAPE
trademark, logo and interface. As we are certain you can appreciate, Netscape has expended substantial time and
resources in developing the considerable recognition of and goodwill associated with the NETSCAPE name and mark.
We understand and appreciate that parody is intended, and that parody is permitted under the trademark laws.
Nevertheless, we believe that your use of our logo and a similar name creates a possibility of confusion and dilutes
the distinctiveness of our marks.
In the interests of supporting humor on the Internet, but at the same time protecting our rights, we would be willing to
grant you a short-term, three month non-exclusive license to use the mark and logo, as long as you are willing to
remove the confusing materials at the end of the three month period.
I will look forward to receiving your reply by June 18, 1996. Thank you in advance for your understanding of our need
to protect our trademark rights.
Sincerely,
Mitchell Baker
Associate General Counsel
-end letter-
This solves the mystery, then, except for who the sender is.
-Chris
http://www.usinternet.com/users/c.gregerson/
www.cgstock.com
What would you all be saying if it was the other way around? Like, what if someone had linuxsucks.com? Or, even worse, what if someone, bought linux.com, and just totally bashed it? Would you demand they return it back to Linus/the Linux community. Or would you all say, "well, they're protected under the first amendment, nothing we can do..." What if Microsoft had actually won the bid on the site. I doubt they would have put something nice on there...
Can't ping it either:
root@ct4-9:/home/justin > ping www.theos-software.com
PING theos-software.com (207.21.75.2): 56 data bytes
--- theos-software.com ping statistics ---
23 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss
root@ct4-9:/home/justin >
I'm sure there are OSes out ther that can do more than 200 users at a time anyway, with the appropriate amount of computing power behind them. Or maybe the correct term is "used to" before networking became big.
Glückwünsche, haben Sie Slashdot ermordet, indem Sie zum korporativen Druck beugten und Subskriptionen einlei
I'm sorry, but for how long is corprate american gonna push around the peple, and the government itself. We buy (or hopefully don't buy) thier products, yet they come after people and are doing anything to increase profits / get rid of competition. I won't say capitalism is bad, but damn, companies with armies of lawyers trying to almost put in a totalitarean type practices. And of course the biggest bully of them all, the US gov, is just being played with. Its obvious M$ hasn't learned sh*t from the anti-trust case, and that any company just can't go around doing that kinda crap. How is any one person or smaller company supossed to fight back, when large corporations are using the law as a weapon. I have always seen the law (in the USA) as a shield to protect the innocent and punish the guilty, right now in the hands of these companies the law is being used to hurt the innocent and protect the greed.
Sorry about all misspellings and the such, this was all written in fury.
Same here. People tend to forget that most US laws are based on British common law. The biggest single difference is the lack of a British constitution (unless you count the Magna Carta).
The problem is that in the US, even if there are not criminal legal grounds, there are always civil grounds. Of course, that goes both ways: Theo and UF could sue this `evil empire' for emotional pain and duress.
Mike
--
Mike
--
"Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yër?"
Pinging theos-software.com [207.21.75.2] with 32 bytes of data:
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Ping statistics for 207.21.75.2:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 0, Lost = 4 (100% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, Average = 0ms
(look, I know it's windows ping, so shoot me)
Apparently, their software is fault-intolerant. ;)
Mike
--
Mike
--
"Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yër?"
It reminds me of the evil empire of the healthcare industry, Columbia. They are columbia.net (!), because columbia.com was already taken by the sportswear company. Who the hell gave Columbia a .net?!
Mike
--
Mike
--
"Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yër?"
However, in the states where each pays his own (like mine, FL), the plaintiff usually sues for `damages and legal fees', and the defendant countersues for much the same. I know other countries laugh at our legal system, because I do too.
I will never forget the McDonald's coffee case. An old lady in the passenger seat of her son's car sets her coffee in her lap while he's driving. It spills and burns her. She sues McDonald's and f*cking wins! <grr>. In fact, the jury awarded her USD 2e6, which the judge later reduced to 6e5. As a result, McDonald's coffee cups now say "Caution: Hot" on them.
Mike
--
Mike
--
"Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yër?"
and rs0.internic.net seems to have gone missing. Part of NSI's dirty scheme?
Mike
--
Mike
--
"Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yër?"
I've heard stories of other companies protecting their trademarks to the end in very innocent situations. The one I remember was about a children's hospital that had an artist paint Walt Disney characters on the walls of the rooms. WD found out about it and made them remove the pictures. When Warner Brothers found out about it, they took advantage of the PR opportunity by going in and repainting the walls with their own characters. Of course, I probably heard this story third or fourth hand and have never heard another mention of it anywhere else so I don't know if its true or not. But I have heard of other instances of WD protecting their trademarks so I tend to believe it.
Regarding the notice by email; it seems to me some other infamous threatened litigations were initiated by email but followed up with hardcopy. After all, if you see a something on internet, email would be the easiest way to make contact.
I personally don't think MS could be so stupid as to try something like this unless they plan on moving their corporate offices to a courtroom. They can't seem to stay out of them these days anyway....
It does contain their registered trademark, after all. ;)
I'd be more impressed if they offered large sums of money. I mean, how much is it costing them to ship a bunch of their own software? FedEx charges are probably more than what the box, manual and CD-ROM cost.
(I'm always bemused when I see big headlines about some multimillion dollar donation MS or Gates has made to some organization or school, where most of that is in software. Yeah, they donate a few bucks worth of CDs and claim a few thousand worth (at retail) of donation.)
-- Alastair
Microsoft is the only company that is consistently being degraded.
Nonsense. That might happen occasionally, but Illiad's portrayal of Microsoft is usually pretty accurate.
-- Alastair
So if there is protection for parody, and an adverse attorney knows this yet threatens legal action, has he opened his client to action by doing so?
Possibly.
Are there laws against barratry in this country?
-- Alastair
If I remember right, "Spymaker" was forbidden in England, not Canada.
So I picked up a copy at Toronto airport before going to visit my sister in England... (The ban on it was later dropped.)
-- Alastair
Of course now I forget where I did read it. Too ... much ... Linux!
Anyway, someone was comparing MS to the Evil Empire, their FUD engine, which we of the Alliance thought wasn't complete (distracted by lawsuits, etc. etc. etc.) is, much to our chagrin, a fully operational Death Star.
This leads me to think Microsoft.
Also, if he was getting heckled by Lucas Arts, do you really think referring to them disparagingly using their own (property? stuff? creations?) is the smartest thing on earth?
Just my thoughts.
Okay, I got Linux installed. So where's the free beer everyone keeps talking about??
I had completely forgotten UF's references to M$ as the Evil Empire. When I saw on his site he was being served notices, and referred to the corporation as "The Evil Empire." I immediately latched on to an
article on MattsHouse that drew a cool parallel between M$/Evil Empire, Linux community/Rebellion, and FUD/Death Star in Return of the Jedi.
But he was probably just referring to his own work.
Okay, I got Linux installed. So where's the free beer everyone keeps talking about??
Why should Theo go along? The domain name is _his_. He registered it _first_, and it belongs to _him_. I don't know Theo other than having asked a question or two of him on an OBSD tech channel, but there are those who have spoken more with him that have a very high opinion of him.
Certainly, Theo is in the right. Certainly, he should be able to demand whatever he wants for the domain name, should he even choose to relinquish it at all, which is and should ever be his right.
I personally would be very pissed off if a lawyer contacted me regarding a domain name I registered instead of a CEO of a company that wanted to use it. I might have sold the thing to them reasonably if the guy in charge had simply had enough balls to ask. As it is, a lawyer making a request like that of me will find only a huge list of demands and high-priced goodies in order for me to give something like that up.
Rock on, Theo. Don't let the fuggers drag you down.
--Corey
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
Something I've thought for a long time. Perhaps software giant RedHat could be persuaded to set up a match-escrow account for folks who would be willing to donate bucks for such a thing.
I'm sick of seeing algorithms and useful-but-unpatentable ideas being patented and people who used them _first_ being harassed/harangued/sued for having done so.
I'll donate.
Where's the fund?
--C
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
Hahahah!
Nice guy? Lawyer-to-be? Nice won't last.
j/k
--Corey
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
What would we do without the MAD magazines, the Dennis Miller/Leary Raves.... Parody and Satire are the Spice of Life (i.e REALLY Fscking Hot Spice)I have accused UF of having a mole in my organization since what they report seems to coincide with what happens at my ISP, however... DO NOT shut them down "Free the Dust Puppy"... /. So I AM kinda bitter because of my own ignorance..... Free Them All.... The Tie-Dye Ribbon Campaign !!!
I however did make an embarassing report from seg. to
-- Life: Hate the Game... Love the cereal
I wonder if they can hold /. user liable for the down time, damage done to the server.. Hmmm.. I think I should shut up now.
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Hmm Their router is up..
(theosisdn) Enter password:
Love that login..hahaha..
I ate my tag line.
-=Ellis (D)25=-
Furthermore, I predict that UF, Segfault, Be Dope, and whoever else got this letter will receive letters exactly one week from today, with a two-word message.
What message? Guess.
--
Do I look like I speak for my employer?
OK, so I was wrong.
This sucks.
--
Do I look like I speak for my employer?
I'll be damned. I was right the first time.
--
Do I look like I speak for my employer?
I don't think he has to worry about it in Canada. Just look at This hour as 22 minutes and the other news parody show (I forget its name). Their prime time shows that really cut up everyone, and to my knowledge they havn't been sued
-?-
Excellent points. But something was forgotten. .) Admittedly, Illiad said he has good representation, and it's paid for, but the parody exemption is a US convention,
There may not be standing to sue Illiad in a US
Court, but the law is different in Canada: free
speech is NOT an absolute right under Canadian Law. Mind you, I'm not an expert on Canadian jurisprudence, but I recall government-enforced censorship of newspapers and books in Canada in the not-too-distant past (the cases that come to mind were a fairly sensational murder-rape trial
in Ontario, and the book "Spymaker", coverage of the former and sales/posession of the later being
prohibited in Canada. .
and applies nowhere else. . . .
(this excerpt alone doesn't make sense but you get the picture).
So Theos also has a right to this domain name.
Just a small argument, that might work. (it might not, I'm not a lawyer). But if it does work, the first registrant would probably win a dispute, especially since theos-software hasn't cared for a long while.
fre-style
My guess is Lucas Arts.
Traditionally, Microsoft don't sue people for parodying their mistakes. Although I have heard of situations where this might happen, I imagine that the book review about Bill's new masterpiece over on ZDNet is a lot less flattering than anything UF ever hit on.
But look at LucasArts. Recently they've been hitting on fan-sites, fan art, fan everything because they're worried about non-approved material devaluing the Star Wars name. (Can I even say Star Wars without threat of litigation?)
Evil Empire? Death Star? Although I certainly assocaite Empire with Microsoft, this seems not to suggest their presence. And who would argue that a horde of copyright lawyers are anything other than 'The Dark Side' (tm).
Personally, UF and Segfault have my utter support. Hopefully, it won't be necessary, but I can see a situation where this kind of litigious behavious could have the exact opposite effect that the orignators intend.
I'm sorry to say this, but I think the time has come for some kind of fund or program to be set up so that lawyers can be hired to defend when needed against stupid lawsuits like this. I'm not sure if the comic strips would qualify for such help, but clearly the Internet is entering a new arena with different rules than what came before.
Theoretically, this is exactly what the ACLU is for. (Anybody out there who doesn't know-- it's the American Civil Liberties Union. They are a prominent group of free speech/bill of rights supporters in the United States)
While the ACLU generally sticks to cases with a large profile, (due mostly because there are enough rights violations to protect, and also because their clients are generally not charged) something like this could easily be covered.
There is a good precedent for parody, as mentioned in some previous replies. And the precedent should be upheld. . . should comics such as Leno, Letterman, etc be sued for making jokes about the companies? I think most would agree, even among the ranks of the company doing the litigation in this case, that such a suit would be ridiculous.
What we're dealing with here is a medium issue, and the rights of this electronic medium seem no different to me than the rights granted a broadcast or print spectrum.
"My husband invented the internet, and I censored all the naughty stuff on it. .
You're correct, the US is thought of as being the land of litigation and the home of the frivolous lawsuit.
.uk but in .ca when a lawsuits goes to court, the settlement (if any) is decided by the judge, not a jury. Judges are pretty conservative about this, we rarely see multi-million dollar awards up here in the frozen north.
I can't speak for
(BTW, IANAL, but my GF IAL)
My current desktop wallpaper is the User Friendly where whashisname just got his T3 and Sun hardware installed. "What do I have to show for it? ... All the porn I could want."
It uses Sun's logo in the cartoon, and without permission, that's a no-no...
Did this come out because of that court ruling yesterday about the trademarks? Lord, that didnt take very long at all to propagate. The American Judicial system is in shambles. I wonder if I volunteer for the manned mission to mars if I could get a microwave connection to the net, and no worries about who wants to take my domain name.
-- toolie
I'm not a lawyer but I'm pretty sure its illigal to discuss a court case before the case is underway, this has to do with jury tampering and all that. Atleast in US, that I know of. Thats why UF said that they probably already said too much. Hope they don't lose the case just based upon that. That would be sad.
Far as I know, Canadian laws regarding freedom of speech/parody are fairly close to US ones. One major difference is that you can easily countersue for legal fees in Canada, which makes sue-them-and-bankrupt-them tactics more difficult.
Far as I know, the code Network Solutions follows is that if the name of a domain was trademarked before the domain was reserved (by another person, obviously), then the original trademarker has a right to the domain, provided they pay transfer fees and reimburse the original registrar for the cost of registering. And if Theos was registered before theos.com (I think it was, and it certainly must have been if they created BASIC and C like they say on their website :) ), then Theos does have the right. That said, a lawyer's letter is not the easy way to do things.
Frivolous lawsuits are a _lot_ less common in the UK; in this country, the loser of a lawsuit has to pay the winner's court costs. Is this the case in the USA as well? If not, who pays for all these lawsuits?
Segfault, which was threatened by the same company it seems, has been shut down, too. So if it's an April fool's joke, it's quite an elaborate one.
:-((
And if it isn't, I know that someone is now really annoyed, and that's me, and maybe 100.000 other fans of the sites.
I'm thinking that it could be aol as easily as MS, the only other person who i think it could be. both UF and SF have had comics/articles making fun of AOL. But, as i said it is just a thought, we will all just have to wait for now.
Pest
On the other hand, even if he didn't register the domain to hold it hostage, that doesn't mean that it's not worth more than $35 for the hassle of being forced to change his domain (which costs $70, anyway). The offer is fairly insulting, monetarily speaking.
There is no mechanism in the system for folks looking for Theo at theos.com to be able to easily find that he has moved once he gives up that domain name. The company who takes it over *might* provide a link, but even so Theo will lose a certain amount of traffic from people who will no longer be able to easily find him. This is a major difficulty when you, essentially, *live* at a certain address on the Net.
When I lost my old domain, I described it to my lawyer like this -- it's as if you've been forced to move away, and someone comes looking for your house and the house is gone -- there's nothing there but a hole in the ground. Not even a sign saying where you've moved to. Do not underestimate the stress that this causes.
My old domain name was shut down over a year ago and I still can't get some major sites to stop linking to the old address.
Even if he's not using the name to gain money, if this company really wants to treat him right, they should make an offer reasonable enough to make the name change less painful. Essentially they are asking him to "move" to a new home. I'm not saying that it should be megabucks, but it should be more than the mere cost of registering a new domain.
//
This happended to AOLSUCKS.COM once.
It's more of the smoking gun kinda thing.(in my opinion)
"That" coporation can't touch 'em.
heh. Your Probably right
Golly gee wilber!
TheOS software server is sure slowing down.
Wonder if it was slashdotted? heh...
sorry ;)
Disclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer. However....
According to U.S. trademark law (I don't know about Canadian or anything else) in order to keep your trademark, you must vigorously defend it. In other words, whenever you see that there may be a trademark infringement, you need to defend it then.
Considering that theos-software originally registered their domain name 3 years ago, and that Theo registered his about 9 months before they did, they must have known that he was using theos.com way back then.
Since it's taken them 3 years to call a lawyer, I wouldn't say that that's "vigorously" defending your mark. I suspect that if they insist on seeing it through to a court case, they'll end up with their trademark status being stripped.
But like I said, IANAL.
Pretend there is some witty statement here.
I may not agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.
Or something similar to that.
Tim Williams' phone number is on theo's web page, which is 925-935-1118.
However, his extension number is 214.
If you call off hours then you can leave a message in his voice mail.
hehe.
James Blachly
There is a law student who is active on the Debian mailing lists, and I think I've seen him post on slashdot before, too.
;-)
His name's Nate, iirc.
He even seems like a nice guy. And a future lawyer. Go figure.
You're a suburbanite.
Um, yeah, you. :)
Client: Act like an asshole, and do some damage to society while you're at it. [Face it, that happens a lot.]
Me as a lawyer: No. My scruples won't allow something that wrong.
If more lawyers had those scruples, the world would be a much nicer place. It's really not the people who are behind it.
You're a suburbanite.
And, here's their address, if anyone wants to write... You can also find their fax number and various e-mail addys, too...
1777 Botelho Dr. Suite 110
Walnut Creek, CA 94596
Just to take this to its pointless conclusion, if you're a company, get a .com . Slashdot, to me, definitely comes under the heading of "other" for which .org was intended.
Pleasantly enough, the only person wanted my domain name was kind enough to *offer to buy* it, and gracefully accepted the answer of "no".
Firstly, we don't know if this is a hoax or not (as a note Illiad's suspending judgement on this too). While (whoever it is)'s moves have rarely been too comprehensible, there are plenty of people out there who'd like to make them look bad (Probably a good few in here too...).
Let's wait on this one. If it's a hoax, forget it, or the press will have even more fud-filled-fun calling us fanatics.
If it's genuine, let's support the sites in question, and I for one will be "removing software using their trademarked name from my system" as soon as I have the time to install something that, in my unscientific-and-don't-take-it-for-fact opinion is one hell of a lot better. stddisclaimer.h, your mileage may vary, and I wasn't there at the time. And that's assuming it's a software company.
I *am* having trouble believing this is genuine, this would just backfire far too much on (whoever). Mind you, as it a hoax it could backfire rather a lot too. Assuming humanity to be rational, it must be a (whoever) sympathiser calling a double-bluff.
I mean, we're talking about people who create run on sentences that are pages long.
Why are they (Theos Inc.) even bothering with this? It's not like theos-software.com has a web site on it anyway (at least one that's up). This is like the kid who has a toy, sees a kid with another toy and wants that one, even though they aren't using the one they have.
First come, first serve. I say stand your ground and tell them to get bent.
If they want to make it worth your while, then that's another story.... I work with a guy who got some $$$ from pepsi when they wanted surge.com from him for their Surge soda product.
At least they didn't insult him with $35, but more like a number with 5 zeros...When they offer you something worth your time, then think it over, but $35! HA!
theos-software.com: get a life! get your own damn site running first why don't you....
Where does that saying come from and what exactly does it mean? I know it means you're talking utter rubbish, but I'm curious about it's more specific meaning and origins.
Sounds like a more polite form of "talking out your ass", which probably needs no definition/etymology lesson.
Ass or hat, Microsoft definitely is talking out of theirs, and I hope User Friendly comes out of this victorious and with a minimum of legal fees.
Just be careful when you send it to the bit bucket. A friend of mine owns the bitbucket.net domain name. It's just a personal domain name, and doesn't even have a web site, but he gets all sorts of junk mail destined people who use something@bitbucket.net as an anti-spam email address.
The same thing happens to nowhere.com (the owners of which I'm acquainted with) a bit of the time, though it's usually the spammers who use a @nowhere.com address as a mask. Boy, does that provoke some irate email from clueless recipients.
Now I wonder what the owner of devnull.com would have to say to all of this...
With the way they appeared in the antitrust trial maybe they are _that dumb_ . But I prefer to think that they are'nt really that dumb, but it is just a 'scorched earth' strategy and one of these days we will see the ultimte wisdom in their decisions, give up any alternative OS we may be using, and all get in line to upgrade to Windows 2000 lite (lite will be the consumer version). This will be completely bug free and on time by the way.
You know, now that I have made fun of them, am I going to get a letter from there legal department?
I believe satire is protected by copyright. I hope that UF tells whoever to get lost. I have $10 to go towards the legal fund.
With the way that some of those MCI telemarketars are on the phone they could be a verbal form of the storm troopers.
Hey, I'm not going to get sued for saying that? I knew I should have logged in as an Anomynous Coward.
jaraxle wrote:
>I don't think so... from what I read, it sounds like they will allow him to register any domain name that does NOT contain Theos in it at all... therefore theos.net and theos.org are out. that's bullsh*t if you ask me, but what do I know?
Oh... how gracious of them... you know, "allowing" someone to register a different domain name from the one they have owned for several years sounds like someone in marketing hasn't quite thought this one through...
Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this twisted.
make Linux, not Microsoft. sin(beast) = -0.809016994374947424102293417182819
Lawyers have to be extremely EXTREMELY precise in their language and choice of words.
A lawyer writing this sentence would be like a mathematician not being able to 6 and 7.
Whoa. Not quite.
If the company's name was "Theos", then they might have a case (c.f. the One-in-a-Million and McDonald's cases). However, the company's registered name is "Theos Software", not "Theos". Which effectively means they have no divine right to the domain theos.com whatsoever (let alone theos.net and theos.org, which are not really commercial TLDs). _If_ someone had registered theos-software.com before they had, they _might_ be able to argue that this was a potential source of confusion at best, a blatant case of "passing off" at worst. There could be any number of companies out there called "Theo's something-or-other" with as much right to the domain as these jokers.
Looks suspiciously to me like someone in the company finally read a superannuated article about the mcdonalds.com case and decided to try going opportunist, on the principle that the current owner on theos.com is an individual and therefore probably wouldn't know better or at the very least couldn't afford legal representation.
Jerks, the lot of 'em.
"If it's a bad idea, trash it. If it's a good idea, steal it and release the source code."
--
"This isn't the post you're looking for. Move along."
I think we should "slashdot" the president of that company and let him know that it isn't OK to do business like that.
...
I've already sent him an e-mail
lets let him know how we feel.
(the president's e-mail address)
mailto:twilliams@THEOS-SOFTWARE.COM
speaking of compensation, we had emmys.com for a few years (actually we still show up as the owner but I changed the contacts to them) and when they first threatened us we were offered two t-shirts and a coffee mug.
Pork is not a verb
Without that loophole however I think it's perfectly valid for a company which owns a trademark which predates the acquisition of a domain name to request that the owner of that website transfer the domain name.
As to the question of style employed by the company, that's a little icky, but in the real world it's not at all uncommon to have the corporate attorneys handle _everything_.
-- When I grow up I'd like to be a systems defenestrator.
What is wrong is them thinking they have a right to have the "obvious" web site for their product.
Theo got there first, and theos.com has become a part of his online identity. Theos Software can sit and spin.
Exactly! When my company went looking for a domain name, we found that the 'obvious' one had already been taken by a family. Being the reasonable folk that we are, we registered an alternate name and have been happy ever since. The actions of this company are quite reminicent of children pouting in the sandbox when they don't get their way.
The Internet was designed to have no single point
of failure.
The same tactic can be applied to litigation problems in this case.
If the current owners of the domain wait a while
until the agressor spends some money building a
case with lawyers, and THEN assign the domain
in dispute to a different (friendly) legal entity,
(preferably in a different country) - the agressor
is forced to start the legal process again. More costs.... and this process can be repeated ad-infinitum making it impossible to attack the
effective control of a domain name.
It is using the age old legal tactic of separating ownership and control of something. If the effective control of something remains where you want, it is irrelevant who owns something.
I believe that over here (UK), it's a valid defence that the person/thing that's being defamed isn't of high enough standing to be defamed (i.e. whatever you say about them, peoples opinion of them can't get any worse).
:)
Now that would be a _great_ defence to use
Paul
P.S. this could also be complete b#######
Illiad's reported heavy hinting notwithstanding, it would seem so contrary to MS's interests to pursue a few parody sites when so much anti-MS parody is out there, and they have several substantial things going on to keep their lawyers busy. It would just make MS look like a bully, a posture they have plenty of interest in avoiding at the moment.
Well, went to check out the UF site this morning and it looks like legal advice has prevailed. Whether it's Bill or Intel taking exception to Sunday's colour strip or even a April 1 joke (but hey, it's past midday here) I dunno, but someone must be pretty annoyed.
I guess this 200 user OS can only handle 200 users. But as soon as the 201 first user comes around, it's gone. Slashdot effect at it's best.
Maybe 200+ /.'ers tried to look at it at once. :)
Illiad hinted on the Userfriendly page that the company he was dealing with was M$ itself, speaking of the evil empire......
I am *not* an Atomic Playboy, but I *am* a cheese-eating surrender-monkey!
Actually, the "flaming asshole" terminology comes from
the US Army, where it is used to describe the 9th Infantry
Division, whose unit symbol is a flower. However, if
you look at it in a certain way, the flower bud _DOES_
resemble a sphincter, and the petals flames...
David - former "Jumping Junky" (82d Abn Division)
i really can't see that it'd be lucas arts threatening illiad (and segfault). how many people have seen "Troopers" and all the similar stuff that's around? i can't believe that a company that seems indifferent to humour like that would suddenly be sending out nasty letters to sites with humour in the same vein.
xxx
Lice