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Anti-DIVX article
Zane sent us an article from Best Buy that basically sums
up all the problems with
Circuit City's DivX Specs.
Its actually a fairly complete article covering most of the
major flaws of the format. Its interesting watching
Best Buy & Circuit City duke it out too.
Can anyone confirm, I understood Disney to be a big backer of DIVX. But they are releasing movies in DVD and not DIVX. My take is that Disney has the audience to make or break DIVX and they just broke it.
Oh ye suckers...
Circuit City blows anyway.
jmr
. . . is an odd way to spell "hatchet job".
On the other hand, if the simple truth sounds like a hatchet job, then divx has some serious problems.
...Divx has some serious problems. There's
nothing that I could see was incorrect wrt that
comparison. A bit over-hyped in some respects,
but honest.
Ever since CC came up with their scheme, I've
shunned them. Used to be one of my favorite
toy stores, too!
Fairly good article, but overly redundant. So my question is, when are there going to be mod chips installable in the Divx machine to bypass those wonderful tracking features? Of course, still no reason to BUY a Divx hunk-o-junk from Circuit Shitty, but more or less to help out the suckers that have already wasted $ on their Divx players...
DVD is the way to go. It will be really nice, however, when Linux can use the decoder cards... (dxr2?)
Yeah, and it's probably a 1-900 # to boot :)
Prior to the introduction I really didn't have anything major against Circuit City. Sure the sales people are incompetent drones, but I didn't hold that against them as most mass market retail stores can't afford to pay people who really know what they are selling. But wait... combine that with the inane, stupidity of Divx and you have a real problem. I almost got into a shouting match one night with a Circuit City sales "counseler" over the problems with Divx. Everything he said was a pre-programmed response as if he was reading off of the corporate sales training manual for Divx.
Scary...
The reason your BS detectors didn't go off is because Best Buy didn't need to BS - people resort to BS when they have to (not that people mind resorting to it). In this case, DIVX sucks enough that it speaks for itself.
Since the TV standards make them effectively useless anyway (PAL, NTSC, SECAM), zoning isn't really a big deal.
Point taken... But what kind of sick person gives a circuit shitty gift certificate? :)
More interesting is that their FAQ says the call happens monthly, not when you start a movie. Which implies the keys needed to unlock any Divx disc are already available locally, so if they can be extracted from the tamper-resistant hardware....
They're interested in metered use of IP, but IMHO they'd rather sell Win98 (with allegedly-better DVD and multimedia support) to people who own computers with DVD-ROM drives (which will probably never officially support Divx), and set-top boxes (running Wince, of course) to cable companies. Besides, I imagine they already figured out how this fiasco would play out.
"Divx - The 8-track for a new millenium!"
tee-hee
What if you have to cross doorways. Large rooms.
Hardwood floors. There are plenty of things that
would make it difficult to hide the wire. Yeah
I know, computer people dont mind seeing wires
hanging out. But lots of other people do mind.
I think "you wanna watch that? let me check if that's OK" is a little too overtly sinister for even them (not to mention inconvenient).
At worst, each player might warn you about being charged, if it can't tell you'll already be billed for that rental. That's what they claim at least.
I think Divx is evil too, but I hear there is at least one advantage to it. Often DVD rentals are returned scratched, and so becomes a liability for rentals to carry it. Renters, such as Blockbusters may not rent Divx, but may sell the $5 cd's. It's a much smaller liability.
Still, I wonder how the numbers add up for Blockbuster on DVD's.
World wide (i.e. all zones, all subtitles) DVD players are GB£400 here in the UK from Maplin...
No, that's not cheap, but it's prety good all the same.
(Discreetly tucked away in a mail-order catalogue update)
They're unbranded black boxes, but they still look cool...
Get them while you still can, europeans. The picture quality is amazing, and US releases are almost always ahead of EC...
EC sounds much better than EU don't you think?
EU - eeeeeeeuuuuuuuuuuuggghhhh.....
EC - Easy
Too bad it exists.
Come on, linux users can't even use DVD's yet.
Let's try to keep Slashdot on topic...
Thanks,
Mark
Yeah, but I want to get some of that money, too.
This is a more legitimate concern, albeit still small in the grand scheme of things. It's certainly nothing that constitutes a sweeping indictment of the DVD technology itself. (BTW, one would think that if there were sufficient demand in a certain zone for a certain title, the publisher might consider releasing the title for a different zone. I would agree, however, that "sufficient demand" is pretty hard to quantify on paper, especially if you're trying to evaluate the financial logic of producing a new disc.)
>> After sneaking it around a wall, then another wall, then another wall, then over the back door curtain rod, you find that the cord is about 10 feet too short.
Oh, man, ain't it the truth! It drives me nuts when I put my new gizmo just where I want it, and the damn power/phone/whatever cord won't reach!
I've heard that Microsoft Solitaire '98 will be shipping on DVD-ROM. Two of them. Although if you don't need Vegas scoring, you only need the first one.
Only one slightly BS-y line; but otherwise dead-on. This one is stretching it a bit:
DVD: Many DVDs available for rent can be kept for
seven days. Watch a movie for 20 minutes a day.
Watch a concert video 10 times in one week. Take
your time; it's up to you!
Divx: Once you start watching a pay-per-view Divx
disc, you're on a 48-hour clock, no matter the
title. The pressure is on to get the viewing in.
But DivX is definitely not going anywhere...
Mark
divx will fail for one reason. The reason DVD is succeeding, the reason VHS succeeded, the reason 8mm film succeeded, and the one thing you can make money at 100% of the time on the Internet.
Porn. divx is porn free, and has "taste limits" on what is acceptable divx content, and what is not.
How utterly Ward and June of them.
oh, and divx STILL blows.
You meant "objective" instead of "subjective". And if you and your friends all play the same Divx disk, you will all get billed for it the next time the Divx player calls in to report on the movies you've watched. If you keep your player unplugged for too long (over a month or so), it will stop playing Divx movies. So I don't think your scheme will work like you want it to.
Yes, I don't think any DVD-ROMs exist that cannot also read CD-ROMs. Certainly, every one sold now will; the trick is that most are considered quite slow by today's CD-ROM speed standards, but the very recent ones are MUCH better.
Thank GOD we'll never see a portable divx player.
circuit shitty salesman:
"Oh yes, sir, you can use your divxman in the car... but you have to buy the modem and cellular phone attachment pack"
divx STILL blows.
oh, and BTW, the comment "as long as you and your friends don't plug in their players, you can all share a DIVX movie" is BS. In order to play a divx-crippled disc, the player MUST be plugged in, so it can call HQ. Go to a friend's house, and sure, they don't have to pay the full (ridiculous $4.50), but they still have to pay again.
Pay-per-view rentals (oxymoron, anyone???). How American.
Yes, quite well. A 5X DVD is roughly equivalent in speed to a 40X CD-ROM.
I have the Toshiba 5X in my greybox, and I love it...
Yes, there will probably be a HDDVD to supplant today's WONDERFUL DVD's.
The point is this, though. That's 7-12 years away from being realistic for everyone but Bill.
You can wait for enhanced DVD, but beware, it will shortly be supplanted by something better, which will be replaced by something newer, faster, better... you get the idea.
DVD is IT. It's clear, it's loud, it's got a great picture... If you want to buy a cheap format so you don't have to replace everything, do yourself a favor, don't get divx, get a good VCR. The sound, picture, and feature quality (along with availability) of divx films sucks.
From www.hdtv.org:
"High-Definition Television (HDTV) offers approximately twice the vertical and horizontal resolution (clarity) of NTSC television, an upgrade that looks like 35mm film and sounds like a compact disc. HDTV does not degrade through many generations of editing; its final broadcast is crystal clear. HDTV also has a wider screen or aspect ratio than does NTSC."
HDTV utilizes a true 16:9 picture ratio, like theaters.
Most likely, it'll be a while (if ever) that you see a front-projection HDTV. The physics of it are all wrong.
Remember, if you're afraid to replace tomorrow the technology you bought today, you picked a bad hobby.
That's `cause he owns it. I've read that Rick Sharp (head of Circuit City) thought up the outlines of the product, then assigned some good folks to flesh it out. I don't think he's going to fire himself. :-) (Hi, Rick!)
They're always good at removing crappy CEOs... :)
That's like saying, "I can get Windows software from (list tens of thousands of software companies).. I could only get Linux software from (list a few dozen companies)" or "I can get Windows software from CompUSA, Computer City, Electronics Boutique..." (Of course, nowadays Linux is making inroads, just like it's possible that Divx will make inroads into other big-name stores)
:P
No, it's like saying, I can only rent garden equipment from a few places, but I can BUY it anywhere (the paradigm is reversed, however...). divx won't make it anywhere. It's useless, and redundant, if not crippled by DVD. Oh, BTW, the linux arg is also bogus. There are THOUSANDS of places I could download a distro of Linux for free from. I'd have to go to warez to get a copy of windows...
Again, of course third-party support is going to be hard to come by at first. I could say, "I have three music systems - my computer, my discman, and my hi-fi. I can play CDs on all three of them. But i can only play MP3s on my computer. This new format doesn't work with my old equipment, so it sucks." uhh... err... wrong again. We're talking FORMAT COMPATIBILITY HERE. DVD/divx x-compatibility theoretically should be the same as a full-size tire and a donut spare. Sure, it isn't as good, but it still bolts onto the same axle! Your argument about MP3 is as valid as me complaining I can't stick a christmas-tree light into a 60W socket! Totally incompatible!
Thos idiots at circuit shitty are the ones who keep calling it "divx enhanced DVD". (divx crippled is more like it).
I guarantee you, you'll never see divx in a computer. NEVER. The pc users who are picky enough to want DVD don't want to pay for screw per view. They tend to be a little brighter than that.
Saying "Don't use the new thing because nobody else supports it!" is FUD, period. It's one of the pillars of FUD. Of course any new underdog is going to have trouble getting support. I'm sure you all know the chicken-and-egg problem with user base and support.
Underdog my A$$! divx is backed by circuit shitty, and a Hollywood LAW FIRM!!! DVD is out, and was out. divx came along and said, "get worse quality at higher cost, AND let us invade your privacy! All while your arse gets fatter and fatter (since you never have to take it back)"
They deserve what they will get. Failure.
...but we will forgive you if you admit that you didn't really think it through when the nice man at CC was giving you the sales pitch. You don't need to go on protecting DIVX this way, it'll be less painful in the end if you admit this mistake and move on.
Let me clue you in, fool... Slashdot is not exclusively a Linux site. It's "news for nerds", not "linux news for nerds".
/. so much better when these people weren't around.]
[I liked
I agree the strong encryption is probably false. You would need to trick the player into thinking it called CC or disable it.
I have come across numerous companies that claim they have great security on their products, only to find some major flaws in their design. Surf the net and you will find info. on how easy it is to reverse enginer stuff. It just take the right tools, time and A LOT of reearch.
You could just buy a real DVD player, and set a password for movies above a specific rating... Cool, eh? And it's in almost every DVD player...
But, sorry, divx discs don't support this.
> well, Dolby Digital, which is just MP3 with slightly different headers
BZZZZT! Wrong answer! Dolby Digital uses a similiar technology (time/frequency encoding), but it IS NOT BASED ON MP3!
Buy a Divx player *and* a DVD-RAM drive. Buy Divx disks really cheap. Then play them _once_, recording the output to DVD. Then throw away the Divx disk.
Expensive hardware layout, cheap "software" acquisition.
I can see hooking up a divx player to a redialer and make the redialer call a certain ... shall we say "creative/alternative clearinghouse" to authorize your attempt to watch a movie without ever having to charge your credit card.
:)
Since Divx is just encrypted DVD, it's certainly possible to make a good player. They just haven't bothered so far because they know the only people who will buy them won't be able to tell the difference anyway.
"What if the vendor goes out of business?" is a far more legitimate concern in this case, since when that happens the features you paid extra for simply stop working. I'd be a lot more concerned about the financial well-being of, say, AOpen and AMD if their demise would destroy my box.
Real-time bulk decryption with a symmetric algorithm isn't all that tough, especially if they just pipeline three DES-decoder chips or something. Public-key is a pig, but you don't have to do that for every frame.
Lots of VHS tapes are mastered even more poorly, and they wear out, yet they sell well for $15 and up. And people pay, what, $100 or more for a cracked cable box that undoes the analog scrambling on pay-per-view movies, and even more for digital satellite test cards (which the broadcasters fry every few months). If cheap Divx discs continue to sell, there will undoubtably be demand for cracked players.
There's a difference between "Divx doesn't support ___" and "nobody's making Divx discs that use ___". Are you sure they've somehow screwed up the basics of the DVD format they inherited?
"Stupidity should be painful."
Once too much time has passed or you've watched too many movies (they've limited the memory), a player will stop playing Divx discs until it calls Big Brother and settles your account.
Renting Divx discs would be stupid - everyone but the first viewer would have to pay another $3 or so to Divx, so Blockbuster could hardly make anything on that.
Actually the $5 for buying a disc includes the first viewing (they're serialized, so they can tell if anyone has ever watched that copy before).
They've been making DVD-ROM drives that they claim can read CD-R for a long time now. Are they lying? Or are you thinking of CD-RW?
Their FAQ claims you can still play (non-encrypted) DVDs even when the call to Big Brother is overdue. At least when Divx tanks, they players will just be low-end DVD players, rather than doorstops....
Good luck impersonating Big Brother without Divx' private key. Getting the disc decryption keys embedded in the player and using them with a DVD-ROM is the most practical attack.
I know JPEG artifacts compress really badly. How will the quality be after being passed through MPEG twice, especially when the second pass is on a consumer-grade encoder? Still better than VHS?
The cretins cloning and feeding, and I don't even own a tv.
Put me in the hospital for nerves and then they had to commit me. You told them all I was crazy. They cut off my legs, now I'm an amputee goddamnit.
Oh, I'm not sick, but I'm not well, and it's a sin, to live so well.
Not sure if all the lyrics are right, but I had to do that. Harvey Danger is neat.
Any way to erase the memory? Or sniff the phone line when a DIVX player connects, and find out the protocols and messages that get passed back and forth?
God knows we have enough of those already, thanks to another Virginia company -- which will remain unnamed but provides online service to America.
What is it about this state??
-OWJones
(a VA resident, & too lazy to log in)
Ok, maybe for the sake of argument you don't work for CC, but you are still full of FUD. Even bending over backwards to be nice to Divx, there is no way this concept makes sense for consumers in the long run. And we still haven't heard what Divx's "good ideas" are, either. The only thing good about Divx is that it might take down Circuit City with it, and in any case will be cited in business textbooks 100 years from now as an example of corporate stupidity - right up there with New Coke.
One of the anti-divx sites I saw included directions on how to decommission a divx player, wiping all the memory and clearing off the registration in the process.
I guess though DIVX would get a little suspicious when you continually re-registered your player over and over again...
I think it's also against the DIVX user contract to attempt to bypass their schemes, so techncially you're legally liable if you do get caught trying to beat the system.
It's easy to bypass PC hardware decoders (at least the Creative DxR2) and software decoders, so any non-Zone 1 encoded disc should be playable on PCs. Of course, there are dozens of "MOD" chips for DVD players to make them multi-region, and less and less DVDs are getting zoned, anyway (take a look at DVD Express' list, and you'll find that most discs aren't region encoded, anyway).
Of course, until Vampire Hunter D, Shin Sheki Evangelion, and Akira are released on DVD, my import impulse will still be low.
"As i was saying, the whole point is that you don't HAVE to go to Circuit City at 11 PM when you want a movie - you can have a whole bunch of unseen movies sitting around, and just pick one. You don't even have to get off the couch."
So, I'm just going to pay $5 a piece *ahead of time* for a bunch a movies that I think I might want to watch later?!? You make it sound as if they're giving them away for free at the store and don't have to pay anything until you play it for the first time - Wrong!
You have to shell out that first $5 (read $1.75 more than a DVD rental) up front for *every* disc you buy. The only benefit from this is a pre-payment to the Divx owners! What benefit do you as an individual gain? The previous poster's point was that you don't always know what you want ahead of time, and that DVD rental via Blockbuster, et al, provides both greater flexibility and availability now and in the foreseable future.
A related point brought up in the early debates on Divx was that of inventory storage and location. Currently, the only space taken up by DVD discs in your home are by those dics that you've liked well enough to buy and which therefore merit that space. One-time rental and experimental-quality DVD's are kept at the rental store and returned there, taking up only their space. Divx essentially shifts this inventory burden to the consumer.
How many people are honestly going to throw out that shiny new Divx disc they just shelled out $5 for? Wouldn't it be "safer" to just hold on to it and save $1.75 in case you ever watch it again, rather than getting stuck paying that first $5 twice and feeling stupid about it?
BAM! Your home just turned into free storage and advertising space for the Divx owners! You don't *really* want to throw that disc away, do you? Why not watch it one more time? Now we're up to $8.25 for a 4 day rental. And maybe you'll watch it again. Or maybe you should buy the Silver option this time. But maybe that's not offered on this particular disc...
The point is that DVD offers a superior product with greater flexibility for a lower price. Divx is a cheap power-grab by a narrow retailer & law firm partnership that has innovated only in the area of marketing, rather than developing any new or useful technology. They have merely limited consumer options and withdrawn features and flexibility that DVD already offers.
Buy as you like, but that's the score as I see it.
I don't think it would be hard to record a few DIVX phone calls, and reverse-engineer the protocol. People have figured out more complicated things. It might cost $100 or so, I'd think. Just one person needs to post their results/ specs in the 'net. Just get an old 14.4 (or older) modem for $5 and plug your player into your computer. Then run a nice little daemon :-)
anonymous for a reason.
Did you shop around before buying that DiVX player? I suspect you'd find that a better DVD player is available elsewhere cheaper than that DiVX player. Circuit City sells the DVD players for more than the DiVX players because they want to trap you into buying their proprietary format!
As for why people hate it is because they fear it will succeed and DVD will fail. DVD is the superior format, AND it doesn't bleed you dry. Think about it, it is the ultimate Corporate gimic, designed to take away your freedom!
"it sounds like an annoying, wasteful, proprietary idea."
Reminds anyone her of a certain 9 letter company and their 7 letter os?
Mighty Joe Young is available now and A Bug's Life will be available mid-April. They must have changed their minds.
Check out http://www.bitwizard.nl/udf/ or http://www.trylinux.com/projects/udf/index.html for a UDF driver for linux.
I had a similar experience. I was in CC to buy a fridge and just thought I'd check out the DVD players. The sales person immediately went into "why not Divx mode". I told him I just didn't think Divx offered any advantages to me (driving 2 miles to the video store is not a pain in the rear IMHO). He very aggressively started drilling me with "it costs the same as a regular DVD player. Why WOULDN'T you want it"? The scripted extra-commission induced spiel turned me off of Circuit City. I may go check out DVD players again this weekend. Although Best Buy isn't my favorite (do the Atlanta stores EVER have anything in stock??), I'll go there before CC. Pissing me off is NOT an effective way of convincing me that I need this technology...
Think about HDTV from the view of a money grabbing evil media baron.
The selling point is a better picture.
However Joe Bloggs has never used a 21" monitor at 1600x1200 and dosn't realise that his
TV picture is (relativly) poor quality.
I'v watched about 12 hours of TV in the past year
and 625line PAL looks awful to me.
You only get revenue once from HDTV when
you flog the morons and new TV.
Sending a higher res picture takes more bandwidth,
that means a broardcaster can send fewer channels
with their limited radio spectrum/satellite.transponders.
Digital TV allows broardcasters to pack more channels into the same bandwidth than conventional TV.
If you were a broardcaster would you choose
to give your viewers a better picture or
to give then a worse picture and hundreds more revenue generating channels?
The broardcasters here have choosen the latter.
Digital TV picture quality is generally worse
than conventional TV(ocasionally breaks up into
blocks etc).
"and the rep claimed that they didn't have any non-divx crippled players. " that is illegal, called bait and switch!
Something like 80% of the population is stupid. Look what happened to so many other BAD ideas, people bought them and forced the superior products out of business! hmmm... M$?
I'm not afraid to say it. I own a DIVX player, and the comments I've seen here only prove the depth of ignorance of the posters. At least I can speak from experience, and I can tell you, 80% of the comments are hogwash. The player didn't cost me any more. I don't have a phone line hooked up because I've never purchased a DIVX movie; however, I have played one. My brother loaned me one to try out. The player accepted it as a new movie. Duh!! Do you think these things write to the friggin disk?? There's nothing to keep you from watching a disk someone loans you for the first time for free. I bought DIVX for one reason. The option is there *IF* I decide to use it. Otherwise, it's a DVD player with all the same features as any other. I noticed the bestbuys article didn't link to any of those reviewers that noticed substandard quality either. Nothing like tossing in a little unsubstantiated "expert" comment to make your zingers sound plausable.
Who are you to deny me the right to buy what I want with my money. The Nazis could take lessons on intolerence from this group. You can flame all you like, the audience I'm talking to has enough brains to see thru the infantile posturing. I bet half of the jerks posting these messages don't even have a decent stereo, let alone a DVD player.
BTW, who want's to take a bet this post is moderated down below the threshold?
LWP
My apologies to the innocent bystanders splattered by friendly fire.
Circuit City stock is up almost 30% in the last couple of months.
You guys crack me up. Now that badbuys article was straightshooting. They agreed with my preconceptions.
I only dabble in computers. In Chemistry, the facts count. True computer geeks don't let those type of trivial details effect their thinking.
And that is CDs. I have found more imports and hard to find CDs at Circuit City than any other place. Granted where I live we don't have great CD stores, we have Circuit City, Blockbuster, Sam Good, Media Play and Tower. But out of those, Circuit City always has the best selection and the BEST prices. The only problem is that not all their stores carry CDs.
The divx machines are individually serialized
and the titles you buy are locked to that
machine.
So: What if you are dumb enough to buy more
than one machine? What, you say, I
have to buy movies more than once?!
What if your machine dies after a time.
how much does it cost to move all
your titles to the new machine?
Do they even have that ability?
Hmm what if you get on the phone while
the machine is reporting your viewing
habits and downloading propaganda?
Listening to modems is so much fun.
What if the machines fight for the phone.
It was a good article. I did not know that some
of the titles are not available for permanent
license. I doubt CC tells you that in their pitch.
Heh, I wonder if the stores get charged for
running demos. Someone could get a obscure divx
title and start it on every one of their machines.
Sigh...
And what, pray tell, are these "onerous restrictions" that you speak of? The zone encoding? I guess if you routinely take your DVDs with you on international travel, you might find zones to be an annoyance, although this scenario is a bit of a stretch. (And as the previous AC pointed out, given the differing television formats in different zones, the point is moot anyway.)
:-)
DVD is an awesome technology. Divx has shown no signs of gaining any sort of mainstream acceptance, and people as influential as us Slashdot regulars will easily be able to keep it that way.
The article does exaggerate a few points, such as the fact that you don't actually have to ever plug in a divx-crippled player. If you buy it, and only play DVDs on it, the POS never actually has to touch a phone line. But the minute you insert a divx-crippled disc, it always has to, or it won't ever work. Doesn't matter, because divx still blows chunks... You lose SO much over true DVD, and you have to have "the man" watching what you watch all the time. Too 1984 for me, thanks...
What kind of idiot buys a divx anyway???
So, lets say you have a dozen DIVX disks, all of them are either silver licensed (or whatever the name is) or safely locked in a box. You have a friend, who has the identical situation. Now, your kid invites their kid over, and their kid brings his favorite movie over, so they can watch it together (an likely mistake).
You then get a $3.25 (or whatever) bill for a movie you didn't approve of, you dispute it, and refuse to pay it. Are you saying that they can hold use of all of your hundreds of dollars in silver licenses ransom towards setting this $3.25 bill?!?!
----
Open mind, insert foot.
I'd have to wonder exactly _when_ the Divx player would call.. When you start a movie? In the middle of the night?
Imagine the scenario of sitting around one evening. The phone rings, just as the family is heading to the den to watch a movie on their Divx player. A lot of people would say "Go ahead, start the movie, I'll be there in a minute," but the family probably wouldn't be able to start the movie because the phone line was in use!
Silly people..
Alex Bischoff
---
Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
This also means that they would probably never license a DIVX-ROM device, even if they could use it to "rent" software -- it would give crackers a lot more access.
That's bullshit man. The majority of video renters check out new releases. If you buy 12 videos ahead of time and watch one per week, you are basically giving up on the idea of watching new releases... well after your first two, anyway. You're also doomed to the concept of buying flicks well in advance, because once you watch six of your twelve, you now only have six to choose from -- the six you had earlier decided you didn't want to watch -- so now it's back to the store to buy another six discs.
Furthermore, if you eventually decide you don't want to watch any of those discs (let's say your friend tells you how crappy one of them is), you are out that money, period.
WTF is so hard about going to a video store? I have four of them within three miles of my house. Are we so lazy that we can't stand a ten-minute trip outside? (If we are, we can still use NetFlix to rent over the web and get our full-DVD rentals by mail...)
The DIVX discs can't be churned out for pennies, because unlike ordinary DVDs, they are all *individually* serialized. The folks at Circuit City have to know what your player has played and how to bill it. That's one reason why they still have to charge about 5 bucks for that first-time disk purchase. They would love it if they could hand them out on street corners in the hopes that DIVX owners would eventually play the movies. But they can't.
'Course, when you have the country's largest electronics retailer team up with a Beverly Hills law firm to define a new technology, I guess getting something that works at all (let alone well) is a victory.
Bah that's not the point. The point is to crack this player and then laugh at Circuit City's "strong" encryption methods, not to actually *use* the cracked player to watch movies that you could just rent on DVD anyway.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
If that's the case, that means that it should be technically possible to crack the player. Since it's not actually calling up when you want to play the disc, that means the keys to decrypt the discs are already available locally on the player. All you need to do is somehow modify the player so that it *thinks* it's calling up once a month, when in reality it never calls anybody.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Supposedly the memory is tamper-resistant, so erasing it may be difficult. Also, it'll stop playing DivX discs after a certain number have been played until it can contact the company to sort out your bill, so you can't just somehow prevent it from ever calling.
The most feasible solution I've seen is for somebody with the appropriate equipment to watch their player make a few calls, and from them reverse-engineer the protocol it uses. Then you'd have to set up a closed-circuit fake phone circuit in your house, so when it dials the DivX billing number, your circuit connects it to your computer, which will then pretend to be the DivX billing computer.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
'Nuff said :).
A Divx player remembers the serial numbers of the disks you've played, using internal memory. Then the player dials up Divx Central Headquarters at 3 AM every two weeks, or something like that, and syncs its information with them.
So you don't have to have the phone free when you fire up the Divx player.
Reading this article reminded me of something else I saw on the Web the other day: the cluetrain manifesto.
Posted by wadageek:
Wait until you need after the sale service if you really want to find out.
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
Actually the dial in portion of divx isn't copy protection. You don't want to copy the disc, just watch it. Do you own the disc? Absolutely, a good enough lawyer (or team of lawyers) could kick CC's ass in court if they tried to crack down on a key distribution system.
But my main point is this, I too have heard claims about how "strong" divx encryption is, I think that divx players would be four times more expensive if they had the type of CPU power needed to decrypt (on the fly) and play 5.2 GB of strongly encrypted data. I've heard claims of triple des and what not, but I don't believe it.
If someone were to make the claim that he'd sell you a device that would octouple out gas mileage, double your car's hoursepower and protect you in case of an accident yet only costs $14.99 and fits in your trunk, chances are he's lying. Same thing with divx.
LK
Posted by AnObvious Coward:
What does that foolishness stand for? Divide
youself from 'X' $$$?
Takes a phone line? Charges you for each use?
Non-transferable? AND you have to call these
people if you have problems?(with the machine
USING your phone line?)
I don't know about Disney, but Microsoft must have
developed the marketing strategy. Probably the
software too, even though the article didn't
mention it randomly shutting your TV down.
Since Divx uses Triple-DES encryption, it is only available in the US (and only in 43 states). This is why regional coding shouldn't even play into the debate since it would not be apples to apples.
... you bought them in the same "zone" so regional coding would not matter than either.
If Divx every makes it off the mainland, then this should be considered an issue.
Also, there is a 99.9% chance that if you have a set top DVD player and a DVD-ROM
If you can read this message, your threshold is too low.
Disney backed Divx because they thought they could make even more money off the people addicted to their films.
This backfired when Warner sold MILLIONS in DVD product while Disney sold "Thousands" in Divx product. People didn't by into their pay-per-view (screw-per-view) scheme like they had hoped, even with little Jimmy crying about not being able to watch the Lion King 15 times a day.
If you can read this message, your threshold is too low.
Yes. A DVD drive can read CD-Roms, CD-Rs, CD-RW's, etc. (first generation DVD drives couldn't read CD-R's, but the newer ones can). I have a second-generation DVD drive that I use in linux as a CD-ROM drive. Unfortunately, I still have to boot Windows to play DVD movies as there isn't support for those yet in Linux. Hopefully that's coming.
However, only a DivX player can read DivX discs, and there are no DivX drives for PCs.
But my real problem with the article was how it exagerrated the problems. If you sell your player, you call them up and they transfer it. No big deal.
Um, yes, but if I sell my DVD player, I don't have to call anyone at all.
If you want to watch your movie somewhere else, i'm sure you can just call them up or push a few buttons on your remote, and it'll work at your friend's house.
"I'm sure". No indeed, if you want to watch a movie at your friend's house, they'll get charged for the next viewing. If you have upgraded the movie to "Silver" then you have to call Divx up and change the ownership of the movie to your friend. Then I guess you have to change it back later.
And complaining that "Not a lot of movies are out for Divx" is like complaining that Linux doesn't have any applications.
Actually it's almost entirely unlike complaining that Linux doesn't have any applications, mainly because that statement about Linux isn't true, while it is true about Divx.
The entire divx concept is pure crap. I can rent DVDs at any of several Hollywood video and Blockbuster outlets in my town, as well as one of the local smaller chains, and I can buy them at any number of places, even including Wal-Mart if I so choose! I could only get DivX at... Circuit City. I pay less for a 3-day rental of a DVD than I would for a first viewing of a DivX film. If I buy a DVD, it's mine and I can watch it wherever and whenever I want -- and the cost of most DVD movies is no greater than the cost of buying a DivX and upgrading it to silver. I don't have to call anyone in Virginia to transfer title of the thing if I watch it at a friend's house -- and if I rent a DVD and decide it's so cool I have to take it to my friends' house the next day and watch it there, I don't have to pay anyone a second time. No one in Virginia gets to send me spam or know my viewing habits.
Finally, I have two DVD players -- one a standalone DVD player in my living room, the other a PC with a DVD-ROM drive whose output is hooked up to a TV in my bedroom. Can't watch DivX on the PC, can I? And if I owned two DivX players, one for upstairs and one for down, I'd have to pay twice to see my own movies.
No thanks.
I could care less about DivX, it sounds like an annoying, wasteful, proprietary idea. And there is little love lost between me and Circuit City or Best Buy, even though they do have okay prices on electronics, and lately Radio Shack has been getting worse.
However, big thanks to Rob for not posting yet another April Fools non-news stuff that doesn't matter content-free rubbish-laden text. That was getting old.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
What I think is more likely is that Divx will go out of bussiness and a lot of angry people will be stuck with worthless players and movies and you will probally see a class action lawsuit against circuit city.
A lot of stupid angry people will be stuck with players that will probably still be able to play DVDs, but with arguably less quality and they still paid more for their machine. One could only hope that Divx bites the dust someday soon. As for the lawsuit.. I dunno... maybe it'll happen. I won't shed a tear for either side though. Anyone who bought Divx didn't do their research. It's not like it was a secret that Divx sucked.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I went to CC with a friend just to let them try to talk me into buying a Divx player instead of a DVD. I already knew I was going to buy a DVD player, and not from CC, but what the heck.. they're fun to mess with. ;) I brought up several of the points raised in the BB comparison just to see how he would try to squirm out of it. You're right though.. everything he said was like it was read out of a sales brochure. They must have a Circuit City Divx Re-education Camp somewhere. This guy was brainwashed. He kept trying to tell me what features I should want. I think the ASPCA should investigate. They aren't treating their trained mammals right at CC. ;)
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Yep. I don't care how many other people want the disc. If I want it, then I'd like to be able to buy it from whatever country it's available in and play it on my player. Bummer that it doesn't work that way. Might be able to play it on a PC player with the right software. Dunno for sure.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
My understanding of DIVX is that it uses some kind of rotating keyset. And it's not Motion-JPEG on DVD, it's using MPEG-2. So I don't know if your theory would work.
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
This one I don't get. Maybe it's a pain or unsightly to run a phone cord to the nearest jack, but they do include a 25' cord, and it sounds like they even include the requisite "Y" plug.
DIVX bites, but not particularly because it's hard to plug a phone cord into the wall.
Right from the start...
Large print giveth, and the small print taketh away
According to what I have read, that is when it calls.
'Course that doen't work so well for us night owls or those who use their phone to call their ISP all night every night.
I wonder how well it could be spoofed by connecting it to my Linux box through a dial tone/ring generator...
That's `cause he owns it. I've read that Rick Sharp (head of Circuit City) thought up the outlines of the product, then assigned some good folks to flesh it out. I don't think he's going to fire himself. :-) (Hi, Rick!)
(Dupe so I'm logged in---posting code forgot between preview and post last time.)
I refuse to believe corporations are people until Texas executes one. -- desert rain on http://www.dailykos.com/user/
HDTV uses a 16:9 (1.77:1) width ratio for its picture. While this is an improvement over current 4:3 (1.33:1), it still is a narrower picture than most movies (2.35:1). So a HDTV picture will still cut off parts of the frame.
I used to work for CC doing computer tech support at answer city, and I created their first web page. When I left about a year ago, they were planning on rolling out NT 4 on EVERY SINGLE MACHINE. Apparently they got a huge corporate license from MS that requires exclusivity on the desktops, and any servers capable of running the software.
It was a crappy company to work for, they treat employees and customers like dung. I am much happier where I am now.
At least, that's what Circuit City says. Just like they said they're committed to maintaining customer support before they closed down their computer support division. And when they closed that down, they told everyone they're still dedicated to supporting their other products, and no, the rest of the shop (supporting tvs, stereos, microwaves, etc), will definately not be closing within a year. Less than a year later, last month as a matter of fact, they closed their consumer support division completely. The only thing they support now is DivX. And they've sunk all their cash into it, if it goes, CC is going to be hurting something aweful.
Note that most DVD players (ie non-DVD-ROM drives) still can't play CD-R's...supposedly some of the higher end Sonys can, but most can't...
Note that I explicitly said "DVD Player" and NOT "DVD-ROM," I was talking tangentially about how the majority of set-top DVD Players (you know, for watchign movies on your TV) still *won't* read CD-R.
Some of the high end sonys have a dual laser pickup and will read CD-Rs. It's mainly a nice feature if you make your own music CDs. I've got a 200 disc changer but it's cumbersome to insert and remove discs. My DVD player is kindof nice cause I can use it as a "single tray" CD player to quickly play a disc without having to load it into the changer. Not all that big a deal but when you're paying a few hundred bucks for something like a DVD player, it's a tad grating that it can't do something your $70 portable can do. :>
But even if Disney had the audience to make or break it- the bad PR from all the grief caused by this stilted, broken, bogus videodisk format would have driven them out of the DIVX business as the people gave up in disgust over it all.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Simply put, it's a greedy power-grab by those parties in the entertainment industry that are most in need of a clue-by-fouring about things as they are and things as they're becoming. It's like the "secure music format" BS that the recording industry's trying to foist off as an alternative to MP3 (how many /.'ers out there think that's slowly going down in flames like DIVX is? ;-)
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Stupid box has to certify the use before it'll unlock the disk for 48 hours.
Yeah, and I envision your scenerio- and I'm amazed that they didn't include it into their comparision of the two formats.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
It's "News for Nerds. Stuff that matters." This "matters", if you must know.
/. talks about Linux/Open Source, but NO, it's not the only thing we talk about..."?
How many times do we all have to tell people- "Yes,
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
...for DVD vs. DIVX that I've seen. It says it exactly like it is without a LOT of marketroid BS- amazing that it's coming from a corporation.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Don't you see?!! There IS NO SUCH THING as DivX, this is just another April Fools joke!!!
-Eric
If you buy a Zone 1 DVD, you can only play it on a Zone 1 DVD player.
.reg file that will allow you to play zone1 or 2 or whatever with your DVD software
maybe on a DVD player, but on a PC it's easy to find a
--
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
I wander for less than a few minutes. Not to mention that I like to wander at 11 PM somtimes.
Ever see a Circuit City open at 11 PM?
Face it-- _nobody_ likes DIVX, except for the few of you who feel the need to play the devil's advocate. You probably don't even like DIVX yourself, and argue just for the sake of arguing. =P
You, as a /. reader, probably know your way around the backside of a workstation, so running the phone lines is no big deal. (This, of course, assumes that you have suffered sufficient blunt-force crainial trauma to actually buy a Divx player.)
Compare this to Joey Baggadonuts, fresh from getting smoke blown up his butt by a Circuit City salesdrone. He carts home his overpriced Divx player, pulls it out of the box, takes one look at the spaghetti they call a wiring diagram, and says "What the hell is this?"
Keith Russell
Whatever happened to peaceful coexistance?
This sig intentionally left blank.
You, as a /. reader, probably know your way around the backside of a workstation, so running the phone lines is no big deal. (This, of course, assumes that you have suffered sufficient blunt-force crainial trauma to actually buy a Divx player.)
Compare your experience to Joey Baggadonuts, fresh from getting smoke blown up his butt by a Circuit City salesdrone. He carts home his overpriced Divx player, pulls it out of the box, takes one look at the spaghetti they call a wiring diagram, and says "What the hell is this?"
Just connecting the Divx player to the TV and the phone may be confusing enough. Add the VCR. Add the modem line. Add the kids' Playstation/N64/Intellivision. What if a tech-savvy person hooked all that up, but isn't available now?
Customer satisfaction becomes customer confusion.
Keith Russell
Whatever happened to peaceful coexistance?
This sig intentionally left blank.
I don't have references, so feel free to flame if you must. I seem to remember reading somewhere that while DVD provides better resolution than VHS and sufficient quality for today's TVs it doesn't fully utilize the capabilities of HDTV. Is this true?
Will there be a new format in a few years that looks great on an HDTV set and makes DVDs look like old VHS tapes?
An enhanced DVD format would of course require you to buy a new player, but if future players are going to provide better quality wouldn't it be better to buy DIVX disks at $4.50 each rather than buying DVDs at $15-20 each and replacing them in 5 years with enhanced DVDs for another $15-20 each?
What is the resolution of HDTV anyway? Prices on LCD projectors have been dropping rapidly and so has the size and weight, resolution and brightness are increasing. Within 5-10 years I expect to have a ceiling mounted LCD projector that can display a picture the full height of a wall (i.e. at least 8-10 feet high maybe higher depending on the room) and with some ridiculous number of pixels. Do I really want to build a collection based on DVDs? I bet if I get the projector I've described I'll be replacing all my disks.
Question: hardware mpeg decoders are pure decoders
and don't give two dingos kindeys about zones, right? So if your software DVD interface cares about zones, can't you simply use a different software DVD interface?
I'd think this would be easier than modifying consumer units (which can be and _IS_ being done..)
Nobody is saying that. not even DVD works on old equipment (that VHS slot is a little too big)
If I buy 2 brand-new computers, I can play all my mp3s on either computer without paying extra. If I buy 2 brand-new DivX players, I have to buy seperate movies for each one. That is ridiculous. DivX is ridiculous.
my $ .02
...you are backing a crappy technology when your competitor can write an article like this and not set off anyone's BS detectors. Well written and had almost none of the expected "us vs them" that corporate comparisions usually have. I wonder if the people responsible for selling Circuit City on DIVX still work there? I'd imagine that heads have rolled by now. Wait I think I see one now...
"Dogs and cats, living together...it's mass hysteria!"
This is not a defense of Divx, but...
My father-in-law was thinking about buying one because he lives in very rural America. He wanted to be able to go into town, buy 10 or 20 divx movies, then watch them at his leisure. There are no video stores where he lives, so he felt this was a decent compromise.
I told him that www.reel.com rents movies by mail. He bought a DVD.
However, this is one case where a divx *might* be useful.
-dan
--Be human.
Get a DVD as a gift that just isn't what you thought it would be and you can pass it along to someone else after a preview. Pass along a Divix and they have to buy it again. It wasn't entirely clear, and I haven't seen anything to this effect, but does anyone know if a Divix disk can be unlocked on one player and then the "Silver" option purchased for another player in the future? What would the ramifications be if your player were destroyed (struck by lighning, the kids put a PBJ sandwich in it, whatever) and you had to replace it? Would you have to "repurchase" the movies or just spend hours on the phone getting it all sorted out?
Yep, sounds like what I want in an entertainment system, more hassle.
--Kit
Former Inmate, VA Linux Sanitarium
When did tentacles become a synonym for interest?
I don't doubt that there are a few good ideas there, but they're so overwhelmed by the flaws that they're difficult to detect.
But the discussion thus far has centered primarily on the technical, financial, and ease-of-use flaws in DIVX. Few have discussed the real problem with DIVX:
Suppose that technically and economically, DIVX were flawless. It would still be a really bad idea. Why?
Well, suppose DIVX really takes off, enough so that it kills normal DVD, videotapes, and laser discs. If it were technically and economically brilliant, it might have a chance of doing just that.
But suddenly, one centralized company controls everybody's ability to view movies. This, my friend, is a monopoly. And it means that Circuit City and their lawyer cohorts can now set prices as high as they like. And they will...just low enough that people still pay up, but not any lower than that. The studios love this idea because they'll be reaping the benefits as well.
You see, the best thing about DVD is that it encourages competition: between movie studios, between video stores, between DVD player manufacturers, etc. DIVX would eliminate virtually all of that.
And that's why DIVX, or any similar single-source scheme, cannot be allowed to flourish.
--
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
I wouldn't be the least surprised if Micro$haft and CC/Divx were in cahoots. Anyone know where you could get info like that? Has M$ dumped money into CC/Divx? Or have they just given FUD classes to CC drones?
Just so you know, DIVX was invented by and is owned by Circuit City (66%) and an L.A. law firm (34%), I can't remember the name of the firm, but one of the partners' last name starts with a "Z". Circuit City is blowing huge wads trying to get this crap accepted (over $100 million last year) and has publicly announced intentions to spend over $400 million more over the coming few years. They're also trying to find another partner to invest in and promote the format.
DIVX is invented/owned by the slimiest of electronics retailers and a group of L.A. lawyers.
Gee, there's a real news flash.
This reminds me of first year WebTV sales. It actually would have been cheaper for WebTV to wrap the boxes in ten dollar bills and give them away than to promote and sell them like they did. I expect CC will find that millions in promotion cannot make a stupid idea like DIVX popular.
The Circut City connection is why Divx will ultimately fail. It's a bizarre plan to push a new "standard" that's available through only one retail outlet.
Especially since (the article mentioned) that Circuit City has raised the price of their DVD players to make Divx seem more competititve. So, they are basically losing sales in order to push this crap.
Customer - "Why is this DVD player $100 more expensive than at Best Buy?"
Circuit City Salesman - "Because we have Divx which is better"
Customer - "Huh?"
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Maybe I just have too much money, but so what. To me this technology is usefull, if you don't like it, don't buy it. The fact of the matter is that for people like me, renting videos/laserdisks/dvds is a pain in the ass. I frequently rack up late fees far in excess of the divx rental fee. Its a matter of simple math for me, DIVX is cheaper.
I can see some concern about being stuck with a DIVX player if the company goes belly up. But my worry, although minimal, is really only cost of the machine and that of hassle. For approximately 100 dollars extra, I can get DVD functionality too.
I also see some advantages in availability of titles. It may very well be that video rental stores that carry DIVX will keep all titles in stock. Given the fact that the disks themselves have no value, and they can be produced very cheaply. It would make more sense for them to buy 100 divx cds of the latest hit at 50 cents or whatever a pop then to risk turning away potential customers.
While I would prefer a non-propietary solution, I'm willing to accept this 'risk'. They'll never totally corner the market anyways, with other technologies rolling out at a break neck pace, they'll be forced to lower their margins.
Can a DVD player in your computer also read regular CD-ROMs? Just wondering..
Sure you CAN buy a divx player and only watch DVDs. But that would just be stupid, when you can buy a DVD player for less and get better picture quality.
-matt
I doubt it will ever give unlimited usage. What I think is more likely is that Divx will go out of bussiness and a lot of angry people will be stuck with worthless players and movies and you will probally see a class action lawsuit against circuit city.
-matt
Well aparently the license for Silver discs can be transfered to another person if you sell the disc. I'd assume you could transfer it to yourself if you got a new player. This kinda makes me think of another bad point though. Accourding to the article a "silver" disc can only be "owned" by one player at a time. What happens when you get two players in one house? I know that doesn't seem likely now, but look at vcrs. Many people have 1 vcr per tv. Will you need spend $20 for each player in your house? That's just insane.
-matt
I prefered the comment about your kids eyes bugging out after watching a movie 100times in a row.
Seriously though, it was an excellent article with no BS at all, atleast as far as I could see. I especially liked the end where they reminded you that they are a competitor of circuit city, and encouraged you to go to circuit city and ask them to respond to the issues they raised. I'm sure they only did this because they knew circuit city couldn't provide decent answers, but it was still nice to see.
-matt
www.netflix.com - 7 day rentals
-matt
Not to mention the problems that arise when your home appliances start demanding time on your phone line... "Dear, can you call your friend back later? I want to watch a movie". Modems were bad enough!
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
I recall when you used to go to a video rental
place and rent movies for a few bucks. then
after watching them, you'de return them. If you
happened to rent one and it was fubard, you'de
just go back to the store and they'd give you a
new copy. If you liked the film enough, you'de
buy it. all the same format; rented or bought.
wait a second. they rent out DVD at my local
video store. what good is DIVX.
could you imagine walking into your video store
and renting a tape with them telling you you
could keep it (smile) but you'de have to let
your VCR call their system with your CC# to
watch it again (frown).
-Z
I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. Dave, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going.
think about it- it uses mpeg compression, which is not exactly a secret algorithm, and computers have DVD players nowadays. How hard would it be, once you get the key to a DIVX disk one time, to write a program that stores the keys and provides them when the player wants them?
Vidi, Vici, Veni
For most of us importing region encoded CDs is more relevant than taking them with you on trips. There are a couple of Japanese DVD releases that I would be interested in importing.
Interesting. So, lets say it just is keeping records of the playing in RAM, then, at some point it locks up because the RAM is full. Then, a) throw it away or b)you hook it up and get dinged for playing "there's something about mary" 256 times.
I know that some cable boxes do this, if they can't communicate back upstream they just cache the 'viewing' of a pay per view, then upload it later.
I mean, they don't have any intelligent people there. That is why I research before I go to any of those stores.
And I know that is a generalized stereotypical statement, but I have yet to be proved wrong in the stores I have visited.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - F. Voltaire.
Hmmm. Well, when DTV (digital TV or HDTV, take your pick) finally does make it to the mainstream in a couple of years (or more?) are you still going to use your analog TV? The fact remains that DVD is still MPEG-2 with an MP3 track (well, Dolby Digital, which is just MP3 with slightly different headers). When digital TVs come out in a few years just get a new DVD player which has a FireWire interface. All DVD players should have FireWire inputs/outputs (by then they should be recordable) and you can hook up to your DTV. DVD will still be MPEG-2, the only change you'll need to make is the interface on the components - the DVDs themselves will still work. It's for this exact reason that I didn't buy a top of the line Sony 7000 for $999. I knew that in a few years I'll upgrade a better player, but DVDs will still work.
I think by now the electronics industry has learned how much of a PITA it is to change standards within a couple of years - hence the reason that CDs and VideoCDs (bleccchh) still work in DVD players. And making a next generation digital video player should be more or less free (from a hardware/software implementation standpoint).
At any rate, I'm not worried about my DVDs going out of style any time soon. And I get to enjoy a wonderful picture in the meantime.
nick
You can't bypass the Divx phone call because they use strong encryption on the disks. In theory, if the phone protocol were reverse engineered, we could set up a Linux system to phone in, pretending to be a Divx player, and get the encryption key for *that disk*.
Then you could play that one disk all you wanted.
Most likely all Divx disks for a given movie use the same encryption--I can't see them independently burning every single disk. Hence, it would be possible to create a database of Divx encryption keys. Of course, such a database would be in violation of US copyright law. (I think they ran though the provision that makes it illegal to bypass copy protection schemes.)
Personally, I'm much more interested in seeing Linux able to play ordinary DVDs. Doesn't Alan Cox need a DVD-ROM drive...?
ooooo boy... I hear this stupid pro-divx argument all the time... so, for lack of anything else to do today, I am now answering it.
Yes. Plgging into a phone jack is hard! Here is why:
Suppose (like me) the nearest phone is in the kitchen.
Problem 1: After sneaking it around a wall, then another wall, then another wall, then over the back door curtain rod, you find that the cord is about 10 feet too short.
Problem 2: The phone in the kitchen hangs on the wall.
Now, let's see you hook your Y-splitter up to that and hang the phone up. First, it looks like a half assed job done buy a Winbloze user ("I can be a programmer! I have a computer at home!")
I do not own a DIVX (DVD all the way!) but I do own a Dish Network D-VHS deck. It has a kickass caller-id unit in it to show you who is calling while you are watching tv (this totally rocks, btw).
And yes, there is now a jack right behind the TV - but I do NOT have to have my Dish receiver hooked up... it is totally optional on my part.
What? You mean they are not already?????
This "product" practically screams for a good hardware cracker to come in and ... um, FIX a few little things. Like those cable TV "converters" you see advertised in the backs of comic magazines...
Oddly enough for something written by a competitor, my BS detectors did not go off. Nothing they say is untrue, or even particularly spun. A few points are repeated a few times (but considering the target audience, that's a necessity).
Also, I am surprised at the humor in it (especially towards the end):
DVD: If you put in the wrong DVD disc, hit yourself in the forehead and put in the correct one.
As much as i'm against any central authority having such control over a media standard, there are a lot of benefits to Divx. How often do you go to Blockbuster and wander around trying to decide what you want to rent? With Divx, you make a shopping trip and buy a dozen movies. Contrary to what the article says and what many people believe, your first 48 hour viewing period does not begin until the first time you play the disc. You take these movies home and then the next time you want to watch a movie, you pick one out, play it, and that's it. So you hardly ever have to go to the video store, and you never have to return a video. Have you ever rented a bunch of movies at once and then something came up or you didn't really feel like watching two movies after all, but you did anyway because you didn't want to return them unwatched?
Of course, i think that the price is way too high, because there is no way to compete other than coming up with a new format. And when you pay for repeat viewings, the money should count towards a Silver account if you want. In other words: you get Die Hard, planning to watch it once. You pay $5 for the disc, and then $4 for the first viewing. A Silver account would cost $20. Well, you end up watching it five more times. So you've spent $20 on viewings. You should then automatically get unlimited viewing. That way, you'll never say, "Damn, i should have gotten Silver access right away - instead i've paid for individual viewings 7 times!"
But my real problem with the article was how it exagerrated the problems. If you sell your player, you call them up and they transfer it. No big deal. If you want to watch your movie somewhere else, i'm sure you can just call them up or push a few buttons on your remote, and it'll work at your friend's house.
And complaining that "Not a lot of movies are out for Divx" is like complaining that Linux doesn't have any applications.
--
Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
I still think a Divx-like system could be extremely convenient, especially if the price you pay in the store is like 25 cents/disc.
I live in NYC. The nearest video store is six city blocks from my dorm. Also, being a college student, i have weird hours. With Divx, we can decide to watch a movie at 1 am, look through a shoebox filled with movies (maybe have them delivered to your home in bulk via subscription - CDs can be churned out for pennies) and watch it. That's it. The video store wouldn't even be open at that hour, and even if it is, it's a pain in the neck to go out. Hell, we have a hard time getting someone to volunteer to go downstairs to pick up the pizza from the delivery boy.
Video on demand, when it finally arrives, will revolutionize the couch potato world. (whether you think it's good or bad that it's easy for people to watch the drivel from Hollywood is another argument.. the relevant part is that people DO spend a lot of time doing it) Divx is the most practical approximation of video on demand right now.
Like i said, it's not perfect and i really don't like the centrality of it, but it doesn't deserve the hell it's been getting, and a slightly-different-yet-still-Divx-like format could be outstanding.
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Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
your post is pure FUD
You might as well have just said, "Oh yeah? Well YOU'RE pure FUD!" - it's meaningless name calling. There is no fear or doubt in my post. I suppose i'm a little uncertain, but i'm not trying to spread it.
On the other hand, let me try and illustrate why i think a lot of you are using FUD arguments. You said:
I can rent DVDs at any of several Hollywood video and Blockbuster outlets in my town, as well as one of the local smaller chains, and I can buy them at any number of places, even including Wal-Mart if I so choose! I could only get DivX at... Circuit City.
That's like saying, "I can get Windows software from (list tens of thousands of software companies).. I could only get Linux software from (list a few dozen companies)" or "I can get Windows software from CompUSA, Computer City, Electronics Boutique..." (Of course, nowadays Linux is making inroads, just like it's possible that Divx will make inroads into other big-name stores)
Finally, I have two DVD players -- one a standalone DVD player in my living room, the other a PC with a DVD-ROM drive whose output is hooked up to a TV in my bedroom. Can't watch DivX on the PC, can I?
Again, of course third-party support is going to be hard to come by at first. I could say, "I have three music systems - my computer, my discman, and my hi-fi. I can play CDs on all three of them. But i can only play MP3s on my computer. This new format doesn't work with my old equipment, so it sucks."
Saying "Don't use the new thing because nobody else supports it!" is FUD, period. It's one of the pillars of FUD. Of course any new underdog is going to have trouble getting support. I'm sure you all know the chicken-and-egg problem with user base and support.
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Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
You work at Circuit City, don't you?
I knew it was a matter of time before someone accused me of this. Jesus, people. I'm just saying that maybe one of your arguments doesn't hold water and that while Divx has its problems, there are a lot of good ideas there.
_nobody_ likes DIVX
FUD, FUD, FUD. If you have a genuine logical counterargument to add, say it. But don't try to say, "You hold an unpopular opinion, therefore it's wrong."
Ever see a Circuit City open at 11 PM?
As i was saying, the whole point is that you don't HAVE to go to Circuit City at 11 PM when you want a movie - you can have a whole bunch of unseen movies sitting around, and just pick one. You don't even have to get off the couch.
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Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
"Anyone remembers the un-duplicatable (sp?) playstation discs ?? And the soon-after-release mod chips ?? Well. They'll do the same for Divx... "
Sony also managed to get mod chips declared illiegal to sell in the US. I suspect Divx will do the same if a similar technology comes along for their players.
- Free tabletop fantasy gaming! Grey Lotus
Don't forget that had he done this, he would have been paying an up-front rental cost on the discs for the first 48 hours. So he would have effectively had to rent each movie twice in order to see it once (once when buying it, once again later when he's ready to watch it).
I just won't shop at Circuit City anymore because of Divx. No matter what, I will not enter a Circuit City retail outlet. I thought they sucked enough before, now they're trying to push this Divx crap on us? I'd do much better at Best Buy or Radio Shack or whatever.
BTW, those Circuit City commercials are just plain idiotic. Especially when they were trying to push Divx during the Super Bowl. They didn't mention a damn thing about how you are billed when you view a Divx disc each time. They just smiled and advertised this "DVD player with Divx" for only $399! (I'm not sure of the actual price, but I'm guessing it was that.)
Boycott Circuit City until they get rid of Divx forever. Just go to Radio Shack or Best Buy...
They forgot to mention that when the company doing /. effect, your local telco switches are overloaded when you pop in a disk, you're phone is out of order....
the backend stuff goes out of business, your disks are worthless. Guess you also can't watch them if the authentication stuff suffers from the
Now, what if the 2nd week never come ? And also, it was said that disc played history was stored in a chip, which means erasable. (It cannot possibly store all of the information forever.) I heard that +5v well placed could work wonder on said chips.
DivX will be and already is a fiasco, because people will work around it with so much ease. It's been like this forever, and I doubt it will ever change. (Anyone remembers the un-duplicatable (sp?) playstation discs ?? And the soon-after-release mod chips ?? Well. They'll do the same for Divx...
'Nuff said.
The Deal is : I dont speak for them, they dont speak for me. I dont get paid well enough to speak for them anyways.
Sun Tzu must have been running Linux...
- Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him. (Sun Tzu, The art of war)
Marriage is considered capital punishment for the theft of a goat in some third world countries...
I returned a three year old laptop for service, and ended up walking away with a brand new one--that is what I call service
Slackware: old school feel, new school gear.
Remember all those worthless AOL and MSN CD-ROMs? Now we'll have to deal with a bunch of left-over DIVXs that were worth viewing once, then get piled up in a local landfill.
You are correct. DVD gives you a very nice picture, but it is still an NTSC (or PAL, if you buy it in Europe) picture. This means 525 interlaced lines. There are multiple HDTV standards that have been agreed upon but they are all still duking it out amongst themselves, something that you will notice in 2-4 years (CBS's standard vs. NBC's standard, etc.) They are:
1080I: This is the longest talked about format, using 1080 lines interlaced.
720P: This is a competing format, using only 720 lines, but displayed progressively, like a computer monitor, giving you essentially double the resolution of an interlaced screen.
480P: This is a sort of intermediate format, and is the exact thing as playing a 640x480 video clip on a computer screen. This is not a high resolution for computer people, but because it is progressive it is a substantial improvement over standerd NTSC. To the average viewer, BTW, many people can not tell the difference between the three formats at a glance, though the difference between any of them and NTSC is very clear.
As to your question about saving money with Divx, HDTV has started being broadcast on the big networks, but almost nobody (even some of the broadcasting stations!) can see it so far. Full (or even 1/4) HDTV broadcasting will not happen for at least 1 year, and HDTV sets are expected to sell very slowly. (Though I hypothesize that HDTV tuner cards on computers with big monitors and hi-res video cards will be quick to catch on.) I imagine that anyone buying a DVD player at this time will want to buy a new player of some type by the time that such a consumer player (of which there are none right now) are availible. And further, even if you DID expect to buy an HDTV set and player in the nexty year, Divx players are said to cost $100 MORE than a DVD player, and most people, upon buying a disc, will be watching it at least four times, thus making DVD on par with, if not cheaper than, Divx.
Bottom line: HDTV is still a ways off and Divx still ain't worth it.
Will
I don't think there is a single DVD-ROM player on the market now that doesn't play CD-R. Only the very first generation of DVDs (I didn't even know it existed then) don't. I bought my "Creative Lab" DVD player over a year ago, and it already did play DVD .....
Is there a single set-top DVD player that does read CD-Rs? And if so, why would you want to???
I fail to understand what you would do with a CD-R in a DVD-player if they could read it... Because you can't duplicate a DVD on CD-Rs anyway. (sorry). Maybe you can expand on that.
If you're talking about playing audio cd (and CDRs) on your DVD player, I don't see that as really important since I suspect most people that own a DVD player already own "regular" CD players, which - as I understand it - will do a much better job at playing music anyway. (and will give you th e 100 disc crousel, etc...)
AFAIK, the only person I know who "bought" a DIVX player had a circuit city gift certificate for a large amount and the rep claimed that they didn't have any non-divx crippled players.
but on free will, nobody.
This is very reminiscent of the infamous WebTV, a device which sucks up the two greatest points of contention in a "typical American household", the TV and the phone at the same time. I imagine there are several parents of teenagers who are at home wondering why their movies won't play.
why a circuit shitty employee of course.
or a non-techie who doesn't have a best buy in town, as the case would have it.
Last I heard, Disney still hadn't decided to release it's theatrical animation on DVD -- just direct-to-video and live-action features. Has this changed? If so, I'll be buying a DVD sooner than later.
But as the article says, most Divix discs are feature-poor - offering only the Pan&Scan version of the movie, no extras. I wouldn't pay a nickel for them, much less $4.95, even if I could watch it forever!
That combined with the limited number of Divix only movies, yields little gain to be had in cracking the machines.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
"News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"
not
"Linux News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters relating to Linux"
> DVD: Your DVD discs are playable on any
> computer's DVD-ROM player.
While divx sounds pretty horrible, lying about the product you support isn't good. If you buy a Zone 1 DVD, you can only play it on a Zone 1 DVD player.
I think they both *stink*. Maybe if there werent' such onerous restrictions, DVD would be cool, but really, it's just the lesser of two evils.
Just because you're on the Right Side (tm) and are in favor of the Right Thing (tm), it doesn't give you the right to lie about it. And DVD isn't even Right (tm)!
You're a suburbanite.
Well, I know two people who have bought DVD drives. One of them travels to Germany and Egypt every other month or so. I don't remember whether Germany and Egypt are in the same zone or not, but even having two zones to deal with is two zones too many, especially since he probably would try to legitimately buy a DVD in Germany and be ticked off when it didn't work.
You're a suburbanite.
It's like a tax for stupid people. We need more things like this, if you're stupid, you not only get a crappy product, you pay extra too! Look how well it's worked for the software industry.
Before the advent of home video the studios ran only on a "Pay-Per-View" system - you went to a movie house and paid & watched the show. Later, with the networks and later cable TV this was brought to your own home, but still pay-per-view as far as the studios were concerned (the cable companies paid the studios for each showing of the movie, just like always). To the studios DVDX is a change to return to their old ways of doing business.
When Video came out most studios resisted the idea but reluctantly decided to release videos on tape at high prices. Most Studios refused to support LaserDisk. Many studios had an anti-rental policy for their videos. However, the anti-rental policy was struck down by the courts. But, the point here is that the studio's no longer had a pay-per-view economic model with video renting.
DVDX is a return to that environment and there apparently is at least one studio who has bought into the idea completely as its bought it completely and intends (so rumor has it) not to support DVD at all.
Conclusion - I would exit the rental market than participate in with these conditions, much rather use real pay-per-view off of cable than DVDX.
I went into my friendly neighborhood Circuit City the other day (comparison shopping to replace my dying TV) and was immediately assaulted by a CC drone.
He proceeded to throw FUD, BS, and outright lies at me trying to get me to buy into Divx (I'd rather be forced to watch my DVDs on a 14-inch monitor).
I wouldn't be the least surprised if Micro$haft and CC/Divx were in cahoots. Anyone know where you could get info like that? Has M$ dumped money into CC/Divx? Or have they just given FUD classes to CC drones?
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To understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.
I was just about to point that out about renting online. Don't know if you are aware of it, but netflix.com is also an online DVD rental site.
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Jason Eric Pierce
Nah, you have to register all your players on one account.
Still sucks, though.
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Jason Eric Pierce
To be fair, I seem to remember them publicly
supporting DVD over DIVX. This makes sense, as
M$ doesn't really have any tentacles in the home
entertainment business. They'd rather have people
using DVD-ROM so they can ship even more bloated
software.
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Jason Eric Pierce
In the interest of reducing FUD, I must point out that the player calls during the middle of the night once a month. It doesn't actually need to call before it can unlock a movie. The call is just for billing purposes (including locking down
your machine if you don't pay the bill).
Well, for billing and to sell your name to god knows how many spam lists...
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Jason Eric Pierce
Discs are unlocked for accounts, not for players. So if your player dies, your fine. Of course, you then have to buy another player and tell DIVX to hook it up to your account. The same goes for multiple players - they are all on one account and can swap discs freely.
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Jason Eric Pierce
For geeks, wires criscrossing the room is no big deal. Non-geek folk don't like this much. Especially those with children who like to trip over any exposed wire, thus ripping it and possibly some components out of the socket.
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Jason Eric Pierce
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Jason Eric Pierce
http://dir.yahoo.com/Business_and_Economy/Compa
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Jason Eric Pierce
This is a pretty important question, and some nearsighted studios manage to miss it.
Yes, DTV will come along with its higher resolution picture and current DVDs won't take advantage of it.
However, as long as they are good transfers, DVDs already rival film. Granted, if you blew the picture of to the size of a movie screen, it wouldn't look good. But at TV size, it's a damn fine picture. Along with this, I must stress the importance of doing an anamorphic (or 16x9 enhanced) transfer. This means that the film is recorded on the DVD at like twice the normal number of lines (this is a rough explanation). However, when you play it back on a standard TV, it drops every X line. To the person on the standard TV, this is indistiguishable from the non-anamorphic transfer. But when you pop that thing into a high-res tv or monitor, it displays ALL the resolution. It's quite forward thinking.
Be sure to look for this feature, as it will become very important in the future when you upgrade to a 16x9 tv. Plus, an anamorphic print requires a new transfer to be made. In other words, they don't just take some old crummy transfer they used for a laserdisc which was transferred from a slightly degraded copy of the film to begin with and just copy it to DVD. They go back to the source and make a new transfer. Obviously, this is not going to be practical for every film (plus, it costs a bit of $$$). But for most, especially for any new movies by major studios, there is no reason not to do it.
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Jason Eric Pierce
Ok, this guy is either completely lying or he is just misinformed.
If the DIVX player is unable to contact the mother ship for a certain period of time, it locks up. The only way to unlock it is to have it call up so they can bill you.
So your story about just not plugging it up and playing all the DIVXs you want is true - for about a month. Then your choice is too pay your bill or leave it disabled.
I can't say this for sure, but I think it DVD playing is disabled as well as DIVX playing when this happens.
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Jason Eric Pierce
You can stop trying to sell me on DVD. I'm perfectly happy with my Toshiba 2107.
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Jason Eric Pierce
divx shouldn't be allowed - it impinges on ownership - eventually, like isp's, divx will get to unlimited usage. But until then, it's not worth it.
ls:
(A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore?
But reel.com doesn't rent movies anymore, they just sell them.
If you are stuck way out in the boonies, I think that satellite pay-per-view would be a better solution than Divx. Of course, it all depends on the selection of pay-per-view movies too. I think there is a better selection of movies on pay-per-view than there is on Divx, though.
Agreed about the writing -- most corporate "writing" is drab and soulless, but this piece show off some skill, which means that (a) the writer had it, and (b) management let them use it. Refreshing.
There is an undercurrent of FUD -- what if they go under and turn your divx box into a paperweight, etc. -- but mostly based on valid concerns, which sets me to wondering about the idea of "Good FUD". FUD is almost exclusively a pejorative term, yet here it's clearly being used in the service of Good. An odd feeling!
You could just cut and past this into the GNU web
page and people would not believe it. People should think about this as a picture of things
to come. How much longer before software starts
being licenced this way?
People _really dislike_ DIVX and do not want to see it catch on. DIVX makes an _inappropriate mix_ of the common sales models that exist today... ownership, rental, pay-per-view. This is confusing to some, annoying to others, and least-cost-effective to even more. In addition, their new model is one that favors the distributor, not the consumer.
The animosity is partially from those who are offended by the quite sincere and innocent looking Circuit City ads (and sales/pricing policies), and the rest is simple the market working in an efficient manner. DIVX has been promoted to hell by a single entity, but isn't catching on with the informed consumer.
The market has voted with its dollars, and the sooner they abandon it, the better for all parties.
This article isn't subjective at all. I have a DIVX/DVD player and agree that DIVX sucks, but this article is wrong. First of all connecting it up is easy. Second, if you think of DIVX like renting a movie that you don't have to return the calling the 800 number to register is not a problem. It took 2 seconds. Also, the player does not have to be plugged in to work. Actually, I think that is a flaw in our favor b/c as long as you and your friends don't plug in their players, you can all share a DIVX movie. It has no way of knowing a mivie has been played one some one else's player withough the DIVX database.
just my 2 cents
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in a world without bounderies or fences, who needs Gates anyway?
All I can say is that I have five movies that came with my DIVX player in december. I watched the first one a month and a half later and have been watching them (once each) since then and have never had my player plugged in to the phone. It is possible that it could stop working but it hasn't happened yet. You cannot do this with movies that have already played on your divx player but it seems to work fine with movies that you play for the first time.
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in a world without bounderies or fences, who needs Gates anyway?
I'd call this more of an accidental omission -that, and the fact that "zones" don't bother 99% of DVD users - I doubt I'll be exporting my DVD's to Europe anytime soon. For almost every user, it's true - any DVD player will play any DVD movie.
Seems like Slashdot has a readership which may include people that have enough knowledge to allow DIVX players to play the discs without paying... Not that I advocate that. But it would certainly ruin the DIVX sponsor's day.
Maybe I'm naive about this, but isn't the DIVX standard is pretty much the same information that's on a DVD (compressed MJPEG) just encrypted with triple DES?
:)
If that's the case, then doesn't the DES key have to be downloaded to the DIVX player before it can play the movie?
If that's the case, then couldn't someone get the DES key from the smartcard (or whatever stores it) and put the key on a floppy?
If the key's on a floppy, couldn't someone use that key with a software DVD player to playback a DIVX disc on your computer DVD ROM?
I know it probably wouldn't work on a DVD player, but on a computer....who knows....maybe even a DIVXKEYS.COM will come of this
LOAD "SIG",8,1
LOADING...
READY.
RUN
No, the 48 hour viewing period begins when you first put in your disc in the DIVX, not when you buy the disc.
So in this scenario, the guy would only have paid the $4.49 once. If you count shipping/handling, still a little bit cheaper than renting from those mail order rent-a-dvd houses.
And.. if one had one of those handy "video stabilizers", you could dub your copy on SVHS/DV cassette and watch it again later.
- K-ster
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What I don't understand is why everyone is so bent out of shape about DIVX? Is it really hurting you? Does it offend your values?
I got a DIVX player because my buddy works at C-City and I got a deep discount on a floor model. It cost less than a comparable DVD model, so I'm happy.
I'm treating it as a DVD player, so for me there's really no difference. I got 5 free DIVX discs as part of the deal from C-City. After I watch those 5, I'll most probably unplug the unit since, as everyone points out, who wants to go to C-City to rent a movie?
But I really don't feel that impassioned about the unit. It's a DVD player that can play DIVX discs. I'll never use the DIVX features. I don't get enraged at the sight of it, nor am I in love with it.
It's just technology. Deal. Chill.
- K-ster
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Sure I shopped around. I hadn't seen any DVD units with Dolby Digital and DTS for the price I got mine, so I sprung for it. So basically I got a DVD player (literally, "with DIVX") cheaper than otherwise.
I wish people would get their fear and loathing straight. Are people afraid that DIVX will succeed? Or do they think it will fail because it stinks?
Or, of course, worse, are they afraid that something that is both technologically and marketing-wise a terrible flop
I don't think so. I think DIVX will flop because the software just ain't there and you can't buy DIVX movies anywhere. They gotta be losing money on it and it won't last another two years.
But is it worth getting in a tizzy about? If Microsoft was pushing it, I'd be worried, they have the money to make it succeed past the golden 2-year mark, but I doubt we'll see little old DIVX past this Christmas.
Am I worried? Not really, for all I care, I just got a DVD player with some neat features for still less than other folks, because of my friend at Circuit City. No complaints.
K-ster
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There's at least 2 multi-regional players that I know of ... they play Region 1 (USA, Mex, Can) and Region 2 (Euro, Japan) discs.
There's also a Pioneer player that can be converted to a multi-regional player with about 10 minutes, a phillips screwdriver and a soldering iron. I did it, it ain't that hard.
YAY! More coasters!!!!
censorship is a form of noise, which actively seeks to drown out content with silence - Crash Culligan
This is one of the finest pieces of polemical commercial writing I have ever read. In other words, it tears DIVX a new asshole. Without resorting to overblown rhetoric or exaggeration it quietly and calmly explains every single thing that's wrong with DIVX. No sentient human being could be left unpersuaded.