Where do you get this stuff???? So who do you believe then, Fox News? Al Jazeera is the only one inside of Gaza because Israel wont let press in. So you can believe the people who are there, or the people who justified the bullshit Iraq war with lies about weapons of mass destruction -- even Rumsfeld admitted they weren't there. But he still wont admit to lying, lol.
So in other words, if your rights were completely trampled, and you had no way to direct your force, you would give up. Fine then. Welcome to 17 years of martial law, what all the palestinians who became Israeli citizens in the 1940s got. Welcome to reservations, that the American Indians have had for hundreds of years. Welcome to apartheid, like in South America.
What you don't understand is that the underdogs here CAN'T CHOOSE TARGETS VIA GPS-GUIDED SMART-BOMBS, because they have no fucking air force or real military. They can only hit easy targets BECAUSE OF THIS. It's not a matter of morals, it's a matter of practicality..
I'm anti violence -- but if someone fucks me so bad that I have to decide to go to war -- I might not have a choice where to aim. Israel, however, has all the choice they need. Sattelite imagery, GPS, and yet when Denmark gives them the coordinates of a school they can't bomb it?
Kind of like when we "accidentally" bombed the Chinese embassy in Kosovo -- were you naive enough to think that an accident too?
No, I haven't forgotten. You're just repeating phrases like "how many" without citing any specific numbers of facts. Israeli has killed 10-100X as many people. No matter how you try to phrase it.
And the human shields thing is a fucking myth. They live in a densely populated area. When you drop huge american bombs that take out entire buildings, that's not human shields, that's collateral damage. Remember the Danish UN school they just bombed? NO FIGHTERS THERE, ASSHOLE. Look it up. Israel isn't talking about it because it makes them look bad.
And actually, the preferred method of bombing is roadside bomb. The suicide bombers are a minority, like the white supremecist skinheads that are rising in popularity in america and germany due to hatemongers like you.
p.s. regarding my last comment, keep in mind that Israel has the most sophisticated weapons on the planet - american weapons payd for by my tax dollars. And BIG FUCKING BOMBS THAT KICK ASS. So, uh -- who's killing more children here? 800 dead in GAza, over 230 children according to UN. In the same period in Israel? 13 dead, I think 8 were soldiers that were rightfully killed while committing asymmetric warfre.
It's always interesting to me that when a small group fights a larger group (i.e. terrorist attack on a large army/nation), that it's considered "asymmetric warfare" and therefore terrorism --- but when you turn the tables, and have the larger army attack even higher civilians -- that is not called terrorism, that is called defending themselves.
ESPECIALLY if you kill more bad guys. For instance "X killed 100, 20 of them civilians". Most people will think, "that's fine. 20 civilians died, but we got 80 bad guys".
You do realize that's the same logic suicide bombers use. Most muslims hate them -- especially when they kill Muslims. 911 killed some 100+ Muslims, so a lot of Muslims don't support that.
But people like you -- warmongers -- and people like the suicide bombers and actual terrorists (which do exist) -- they are quite content killing a few good people as long as they think they've killed bad people.
The only difference between you and them is that your respective definitions of who is bad merely point to the other side.
I wish I could teleport you all into a steel-caged deathmatch so you could all fight each other until no one is left (not even anyone to "come for you", as you laughingly claim). I'd love to see the evil people on both side STOP, but it's not going to happen. Especially with people like you getting online to talk about how killing civilians is okay as long as it's THEIRS AND NOT YOURS. What a hypocrite! You want to kill people just like you! haha
You keep using school children as an example. Last I checked, the only way Gaza can hit children is if one of their Quassam rockets that has no guidance and is randomly fired, happens to randomly hit a child. Whereas the Israeli army, after being given coordinates of the UN buildings by the Danish government, then bombed a Danish school full of children. The UN has admonished this act and opened an investigation, and Isreal had to send someone over to Denmark to explain themselves.
So, very funny example you give there. If I had no choice but to fire rockets randomly or do nothing, I'd be brave and fight for my country. You seem to be pro-fighting, but now you're saying you'd just sit it out like a pussy. I don't believe you.
The funniest thing is that the link you sent me says that what Israel did was illegal under international law! Even funnier is a comment on the page that is smarter than anything you've said today: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Who said it? Gandhi.
Anyway, I must be missing something, because I don't think that link really helps you here, bud.
UN came, violated the rights of people, they fought back, tried to take their own land with military action, and were greeted with the Deir Yassin amssacre, and things only ever got worse since... But the root cuase is people's rights being violated. And I wonder if you're going to answer my question about whether you'd puss out if someone forcefully took 100% of your family's property...
Um let's see, the UN comes in and says "you can't live here anymore". Are you saying you would just pussy out and not attack someone who did this to you?
You just don't get it, do you? 100% of palestinians were oppressed by the Israelis. It is not "eviction". That's like calling terrorism "collateral damage". You obviously still never read the comment I directed to you, indicating your inability to challenge your own views.
The people now firing rockets on the Israelis are a subset -- not 100%, not even 50%. (The American Revolution had less than 10% support, you know! Most people are docile and don't want to fight!)
So there you have it: An entire society can be crushed by one, and that's okay with you. But should a small subset fight back -- then you support a bully continuing to crush them at a genocidal race. Real nice. Genocide victims committing genocide on another race. Their inability to learn reminds me of your inability to learn.
I think we're on the same side, but I'll answer you nonetheless in an argumentative fashion:)
1) Um, NO, actually. In your own example you cite that the Civil War was what had to be ignited to garner their release. And what a war it was; the most american lives lost in any. I don't think that's exactly a shining example of non-violence freeing slaves, no matter how you try to twist it. Someone sitting on the sidelines saying "we shouldn't fight" while other people fight and free that someone does not connote that their non-violence did the freeing.
2) It is be definition a different situation. It's kind of hard to compare a situation to itself, when making a list of comparisons. It also means the list can never have more than 1 entry:)
3) I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm aware of all this -- but the Jews didn't get freed via non-violent tactics. A war -- a WORLD war -- was required to do this.
Now I'm against violence, but it's also a very right thing to do a lot of the time. If someone forcefully takes the deed from my house and gives it to someone else based on nationality or race -- which is exactly what happened to the Palestinians -- then I am justified in fighting them until I get my house back.
Of course, if I do fight, they use that as justification to kill innocents. The cycle grows. It's important to look at the root causes. Someone IS right, and someone IS wrong. It's easy to sit down and say "all violence is bad, so i'm going to support the society that is more like my society, or the team that is more like my team" -- but that's lazy justice thinking.
The indigenous people of Canada didn't exactly have their land taken from them, did they? I don't really know, I just know Canda is a BIG FUCKING EMPTY COUNTRY FULL OF LAND. Not like tiny little Israel and tinier little Gaza.
They are also, what, 200 years dead?
And if you look at the American Indians today? Do you think their treatment is a shining example of what happens when you go along with your oppressor? Why don't you look into what life is like for the average American Indian. They, too, are a good 200 years dead from the original ones who lost their land, AND ARE STILL TREATED LIKE SHIT. Exactly why nobody should ever let their land be invaded.
Your points are really just helping my view, as far as I'm concerned.
The difference between Palestine in that is that THESE PEOPLE ARE STILL ALIVE, still the original families (and children of original families) that had this done to them.
It's very interesting to me how your cognitive dissonance did not permit your tiny brain from answering my question: How would you feel if your family home was taken away from you int he way I had described in earlier comments? You conveniently ignored that. How did you feel about their Jewish tenant being turned around and given their house for no reason? What's a matter? Brain can't comprehend that injustice happens and people don't just sit down and take it?
I'm anti-concession, anti-appeasement. In fact, I've blogged a lot about the Muslim appeasement where it seems Muslims can criticize other religions, but if other people criticize Muslims, they get hailed in front of a Canadian Human Rights Tribunal. Fuck that, fuck giving concessions and appeasement to anybody. It didn't stop Hitler, and it will never stop the bloodlust of warmongers like you.
Giving people land they rightly own is not a concession.
And funny thing about Germany... It had this thing that helps it become a real threat to the world -- this thing called ARMED FUCKING FORCES AND AN AIR FORCE THAT COULD AND WOULD DROP NUKES THAT THEIR MILITARY SCIENTISTS WERE DEVELOPING ON US... Something which Palestine lacks. No, some people with homemade Qassam rockets doesn't count. Show me their airforce. What's that? They don't have one? Yea, some fucking threat. You're a fucking coward if you're so scared by people with homemade rockets half a world away that you justify killing civilians with YOUR tax dollars. Someday someone as equally cowardly as you will justify killing an American using your exact logic.
Actually, they wont come after me. The Palestinians have never attacked america, and never will. Israel might, though. They have nukes. Be careful who you wish for to be your friend -- friends have bad habits of turning against each other. Google U.S.S. Liberty. Even Iran is more likely to attack us (but they would attack Israel first, so we would have AMPLE warning) than the Palestinians. But we should really be keeping our eye on North Korea and Saudi Arabia, in case you haven't been paying attention.
And actually, America did NOTHING TO STOP HITLER. Only once Japan bombed us did we give a fuck, TO SAVE OUR OWN ASSES FROM BEING ATTACKED we entered the war, YEARS after we KNEW about the Jews being killed.
You see, just like with Rwanda and Darfur, if there's not oil in the region, WE DON'T GIVE A FUCK.
Nice try, but you fail. People like you did nothing to stop the Holocaust until people like you were attacked. People like you didn't give a shit until OUR TEAM, the americans, were attacked in Pearl Harbor. Meanwhile people like me were saying "stop fighting" years before.
Of course, WW2 was the one good foreign war we ever fought (besides independence, 'natch). It was the only war we ever fought in that had a clear good and evil side, and a clear side to join in.
But we didn't. We only joined in once WE WERE PERSONALLY THREATENED. Only then did PEOPLE LIKE YOU give a shit. And then you called for war. YOu would have been right - ONCE. Then. And only then.
p.s. I meant "The history of Gaza, and indeed all history is *relevant*". All history is RELEVANT. No history is IRRELEVANT. That is what I meant. Your idiocy makes me mad, and being made makes me mis-type. So double-fuck-you for that!
Jew-hating ass? Fuck you, dick. I'll have you know my grandmothers entire fucking family was decimated in the Holocaust, with her being the sole survivor. She was liberated from a Nazi labor camp by my grandfather who was a Sergeant in 1st Infantry Division and stormed Normandy (1st wave, I think, not sure though). He smuggled her out of the country in the back of a military jeep so he could marry her.
You are clearly a "team player" who just wants to justify what your team is. I guess you have divided people into "people who hate jews" and "people who don't", but that is the classification system of a fucking simpleton.
The history of Gaza, and indeed all history is irrelevant. If history is irrelevant, I guess the Holocaust is irrelevant too, huh? NO. NEITHER IS IRRELEVANT. You don't get to write away the history of the Team B just because you play for Team A. That is asshole high-schooler sports-level neanderthal thinking. Go watch a football game if that's your only capability of understanding conflict between two people. Or better off, professional wrestling, since you're so susceptible to grandstanding and sides talking smack about each other.
Your "but no...fucks" sentence is not comprehensible to me. "their own nation of they'd just quit being suck fucks". What is that supposed to mean? Are you typing through a translator or something?
It's funny that you are using the United Nations as an excuse for them existing, when they themselves have condemned the attacks.
Funny thing is -- the enemies and terrorists who kill innocent people -- they think EXACTLY LIKE YOU. Zero deaths is acceptable to them AND to you, and both them AND you are willing to wage wars where 100 innocents on both sides die. YOU ARE THE SAME. Have fun killing each other.
The assholes that fight must die on all sides. For this to be accomplished, it needs to be a fair fight so both sides can kill each other equally. Withdraw all american support. When all the violent fucks who want to kill each other decimate each other to nothingness, the few remaining civilians who don't want to fight can establish a secular, non-religious state that grants freedom to all -- something like America. Fancy that. But it ain't gonna happen now. That war is about as likely to end as the War IN Iraq. Maybe if we just kill enough of them tharr terrorists they'll all be dead? Hahaha!
Your response is fulled with such factual and ideological bullshit that you are a lost cause.
By the way - If I kick you out of your house, and force you into the woods behind your house -- I am not occupying your woods!!!!! HAHA. Nice logic there, but you missed the point that they are there because they are forced there, and they are not occupied out of choice. And actually right now, they are, because the military is occupying them, and dropping leaflets telling them not to leave their houses. And actually, historically, they came in and forced people out of the houses their families owned, and then occupied them. Did you follow the link I provided? Read about my friend's family home. They didn't care about Jews. They had a Jewish tenant! But when Israel was created, the country forced their tenant to be the owner. He tried to sell the house back to them -- Israel wouldn't let him. So finally he sold it to other people and tried to give 100% of it to them -- but of course the guy refused the money, as this would be an acceptance of being forced out of your house. My question to you is -- would you just walk away and take this shit? Because those who did, and became Israeli citizens, had to live under martial law for 17 years afterwards. Some fucking reward for cooperating, but I know your puny brain doesn't want to think about such complicated things.
Your human shield logic is bullshit too. DO you understand compression? That if you compress people into a ghetto and not let them out, that it becomes a HIGH POPULATION CENTER. There's no such thing as human sheilds when the bombs you drop are so large they take out neigboring buildings. Say you live next door to a serial-killer -- does that give the police the right to drop a bomb on his house so big it kills YOU? No, it doesn't. Fortunately for us, America is pretty spread out compared to ghettos like Gaza.
Or better yet, say the World Trade Centers were in Gazi. We would TAKE THEM THE FUCK OUT if there was even ONE member of Hamas in them. Civilians be damned. Which is basically exactly what's happening.
Then someone on the other side who THINKS EXACTLY LIKE YOU has a friend killed, so now they, using your logic, are free to kill *100* of the enemy.
And then one of the enemy gets killed, and someone WHO THINKS EXACTLY LIKE YOU has a friend/family killed, and now USING YOUR LOGIC is justifiable in killing 100 people.
You are the same as Al Queda. You think 0 deaths of your people are acceptable, and are willing to make excuses to kill civilian in the name of your cause. The only difference between you and bin laden is that you happen to be a citizen of my country.
And actually, I support gun ownership and self-determination to the point that I think smoking bans should be illegal, every house should have a gun, and all drugs should be legal. Nice try to pen me down as a fucking liberal; I hate liberals. Don't call me a libertarian either:) (and in case i have to be clear, FUCK republicans).
I'm reposting what my Palestinian friend in college wrote on my blog HERE... Now my grandma was in a Nazi labor camp and liberated by my grandfather who stormed Normandy on D-Day, and i *still* think the Israelis are barely any better than Hitler in their behavior:
You said the the Arab nations are blocking the recognition of Israel. But, that is not true. In 2002, the Arab League met in Beirut and unanimously agreed to recognize Israel and sign a peace agreement with them if Israel withdraws to its pre-1967 borders, addresses the 1948 refugee issue, and establishes a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem (the Arab side) as its capital. Then in 2007, it was again endorsed by the Arab League in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
The Arabs (especially the oil-producing Gulf of Persia countries) have every interest to make peace with the Israelis because a lot of direct foreign investment does not makes it way there because of the geopolitical risk of the region. By removing that risk, a lot of money can flow to the region and enrich those countries.
But my point is this, I think there are two ways to think about this and they seem contradictory at first, but if you keep an open mind, you might agree they are not.
Point 1: The Israel of 1948 Does Not Have a Right to Exist.
Point 2: The Israel of 2008 Deserves to Exist.
So, let me start off with saying something. I do not support Hamas. As a Muslim and a half-Palestinian, Hamasâ(TM) actions and beliefs affect me more than they affect the Israelis. If its not self-explanatory why both are the case, then I can go into it in a later post if you want.
So, the first point is in defense of my mother. Her sister in Jordan has a legal title of ownership (certified by the British Authority) of a house my grandfather owns in Yaffa. Yaffa was renamed Jaffa when Israel was formed. My grandfather was a bureacrat who worked for the British in Palestine and he worked hard, saved money and bought land. He then then saved more money and built one floor of a house. He then saved more money and built two more floors where they all lived and he rented the ground floor to a Jew from Palestine. This tenant made the first floor into an ice cream shop. My mom remembers how her father would leave work at 2 pm and go straight to constructing the upper floors until dinner. The Jewish tenant (whose name I canâ(TM)t remember) used to give my mom free ice cream whenever she wanted and she used to call him âoeAmoâ (which is a very respectful term the young say to elders that means Uncle in Arabic). Back then there was no made-up Hannukah.. just Rosh Hashanah and my grandfatherâ(TM)s present to the Jewish tenant was free rent during that week. They also had a lot of orange trees that were on the property that her older brother used to go to pick fruit from for her that she constantly talked about (once a snake almost bit him and he teased her that her orange cravings almost got him killed). When she was dying of cancer in 2004 and was in the hospital staring blankly at nothing, I would ask her what sheâ(TM)s thinking about? She wouldnâ(TM)t say sheâ(TM)s thinking about her 50-year marriage, her 4 kids, her 8 grandchildren, her world travels or the relatively good life she lived, she would keep talking about how the ice cream tasted â" nearly 60 years before! She never got over that being away from her. In 1948, Israeli snipers were shooting random people in Jaffa. So my grandfather packed up the kids and sent them to Lebanon to stay for a few weeks because the Arab leaders were promising to drive the European Jews out â" that was the last time any of them would see their home. The Arab leaders were bribed (with power, and pro
People like you are a joke. You just posted a comment on slashdot saying it's okay to kill innocent people if some people in their country have twisted thinking. Of course, that's the same type of thinking Al Queda uses to attack us. You're no different, you just happen to be on "our side".
AS long as people think "to stop deaths, we must kill people", the killing will never stop.
I suggest you read the history of why these people are pissed off. They absolutely should not stop fighting. 60 years going by does not make a wrong a right.
And then ask yourself: What would the gun-totin' redneck american militias do if we were occupied by China in a similar fashion? Even if America wanted peace, you think they wouldn't be out there lobbing bombs at the occupying Chinamen every day? Of course they would. And they'd be hailed as heroes by americans left and right. The brave.
So in the end, my friend, you are a subjective fuck. You don't care about what's right; you care about being on the winning team. This may not be what you THINK you care about, due to your ignorance, but when faced with the facts, the only way anyone could side with a country that illegally occupies another is "jungle thinking" - might makes right, and always play on your team's side, even if your team is warmongering assholes that think you have to kill people in order to stop killing.
I seriously doubt you'd be satisfied with having your family home taken from you, and then have the Jew it was given to try to sell it back to you for 1 penny, only to have Israel stop the sale:
REad this.
But I guess if a few years pass, then theft is okay? If I kick you out of your house, and 30 or 60 years pass -- does that mean if you try to take your house back from me, It's okay for me to kill your wife, kids, cousins, and parents? Because that's basically the logic being employed here -- both by Israel against Gaza, and by the US against Iraq and Afghanistan.
All you people simultaneously WANT killings because you think 0 killings are justified. You're all such hypocrites.
Because non-violent responses earned blacks their freedom in america?
Because non-violent responses earned America's independence from Britain?
Because non-violent responses stopped Hitler from killing the European Jews?
Because non-violent responses stopped the genocide in Rwanda?
Actually, if you check your history, when Israel illegally stole the country from the people who had lived their their whole lives (side-by-side with non-european Jews, in many cases) -- some Palestinians DID decide to be non-violent, and become citizens of Isreal.
And guess what happened? 17 years of martial law. But only for the Palestinan citizens.
Sounds like they made the wrong choice to me. As the founding fathers who protected our freedoms via their VIOLENT revolution stated: I'd rather die on my feet, than live on my knees.
Try reading comments #7 and #10 (especially) here and enlighten yourself a little. So far, non-violence hasn't worked. Nor has violence. But you're using the violence as an excuse to perpetrate more violence itself. Sad:
HERE.
I think I agree with you actually. I think you thought I didn't understand that the bank industry was caused by deregulation. I do. But the existing regulations not being enforced means that deregulation is simply that much stupider, and the point about the regulations that were there not working is still true, regardless of if the reason is that they are stupid, or not being enforced.
Erin Brockovitch is based on a true story, by the way. To raise awareness that yes, things like this happen, and good luck getting any justice when they do.
I might have been unclear or argumentative, but what I'm saying is: Deregulation sucks as bad as not enforcing regulations -- it is de facto the same thing. I'll add to that that OVER-regulation really sucks as well! Some (or all!) situations need to be taken case-by-case, but regulations that exist also need to be enforced so as not to muddy up our conversations!
It's a good thing our finance industry has stayed so heavily regul.. oh. wait.
It's a good thing regulations protected the people who got screwed by Enr... oh wait.
It's a good thing regulations protected the town that the movie Erin Brockovicth was based on.. oh, wait.
You, sir, got lucky, and think that because things went a certain way for you, they go that way for everyone. They don't. The world is a larger sample set than the town you lived in.
Pardon me for not being specific enough for you. Tagged pictures on Usenet? That's really weak. How does search work when you don't have infinte retention anyway? But yea yea, the devil's in the fucking details, I get it. We've lost sight of our original conversation.
So what sites out there prior to 2000 let people tag and upload images? Don't say Kodakshare or anything like that. Those didn't even let you write captions.
The original BT client only supported 1 file at a time. What a joke. It also pre-allocated 100% of the space used. Talk about a waste of resource -- it was useless. Hardly anybody used it back then. Emule/Edonkey and even Limewire was easier to use back then. I'd say the real BT tipping point was Azureus, but it was a resource hog since it required Java. But since it required Java, I assume mac people got on it. uTorrent toppled it. It's nice to have torrents take 2% of your cpu instead of a constant 15-50% (I don't remember specifically, but it suuuucked and was not really possible to use with your primary computer if it's your music/video player), and to have a 160K binary that requires no installation to run (hmm.. thumbdrive at work on a locked down computer works), handles everything, and handles it well. (And still has a scheduler for bandwidth management.)
Slashdot Mirror
Where do you get this stuff???? So who do you believe then, Fox News? Al Jazeera is the only one inside of Gaza because Israel wont let press in. So you can believe the people who are there, or the people who justified the bullshit Iraq war with lies about weapons of mass destruction -- even Rumsfeld admitted they weren't there. But he still wont admit to lying, lol.
What you don't understand is that the underdogs here CAN'T CHOOSE TARGETS VIA GPS-GUIDED SMART-BOMBS, because they have no fucking air force or real military. They can only hit easy targets BECAUSE OF THIS. It's not a matter of morals, it's a matter of practicality..
I'm anti violence -- but if someone fucks me so bad that I have to decide to go to war -- I might not have a choice where to aim. Israel, however, has all the choice they need. Sattelite imagery, GPS, and yet when Denmark gives them the coordinates of a school they can't bomb it?
Kind of like when we "accidentally" bombed the Chinese embassy in Kosovo -- were you naive enough to think that an accident too?
And the human shields thing is a fucking myth. They live in a densely populated area. When you drop huge american bombs that take out entire buildings, that's not human shields, that's collateral damage. Remember the Danish UN school they just bombed? NO FIGHTERS THERE, ASSHOLE. Look it up. Israel isn't talking about it because it makes them look bad.
And actually, the preferred method of bombing is roadside bomb. The suicide bombers are a minority, like the white supremecist skinheads that are rising in popularity in america and germany due to hatemongers like you.
It's always interesting to me that when a small group fights a larger group (i.e. terrorist attack on a large army/nation), that it's considered "asymmetric warfare" and therefore terrorism --- but when you turn the tables, and have the larger army attack even higher civilians -- that is not called terrorism, that is called defending themselves.
ESPECIALLY if you kill more bad guys. For instance "X killed 100, 20 of them civilians". Most people will think, "that's fine. 20 civilians died, but we got 80 bad guys".
You do realize that's the same logic suicide bombers use. Most muslims hate them -- especially when they kill Muslims. 911 killed some 100+ Muslims, so a lot of Muslims don't support that.
But people like you -- warmongers -- and people like the suicide bombers and actual terrorists (which do exist) -- they are quite content killing a few good people as long as they think they've killed bad people.
The only difference between you and them is that your respective definitions of who is bad merely point to the other side.
I wish I could teleport you all into a steel-caged deathmatch so you could all fight each other until no one is left (not even anyone to "come for you", as you laughingly claim). I'd love to see the evil people on both side STOP, but it's not going to happen. Especially with people like you getting online to talk about how killing civilians is okay as long as it's THEIRS AND NOT YOURS. What a hypocrite! You want to kill people just like you! haha
So, very funny example you give there. If I had no choice but to fire rockets randomly or do nothing, I'd be brave and fight for my country. You seem to be pro-fighting, but now you're saying you'd just sit it out like a pussy. I don't believe you.
Anyway, I must be missing something, because I don't think that link really helps you here, bud.
UN came, violated the rights of people, they fought back, tried to take their own land with military action, and were greeted with the Deir Yassin amssacre, and things only ever got worse since... But the root cuase is people's rights being violated. And I wonder if you're going to answer my question about whether you'd puss out if someone forcefully took 100% of your family's property...
Um let's see, the UN comes in and says "you can't live here anymore". Are you saying you would just pussy out and not attack someone who did this to you?
The people now firing rockets on the Israelis are a subset -- not 100%, not even 50%. (The American Revolution had less than 10% support, you know! Most people are docile and don't want to fight!)
So there you have it: An entire society can be crushed by one, and that's okay with you. But should a small subset fight back -- then you support a bully continuing to crush them at a genocidal race. Real nice. Genocide victims committing genocide on another race. Their inability to learn reminds me of your inability to learn.
1) Um, NO, actually. In your own example you cite that the Civil War was what had to be ignited to garner their release. And what a war it was; the most american lives lost in any. I don't think that's exactly a shining example of non-violence freeing slaves, no matter how you try to twist it. Someone sitting on the sidelines saying "we shouldn't fight" while other people fight and free that someone does not connote that their non-violence did the freeing.
2) It is be definition a different situation. It's kind of hard to compare a situation to itself, when making a list of comparisons. It also means the list can never have more than 1 entry :)
3) I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm aware of all this -- but the Jews didn't get freed via non-violent tactics. A war -- a WORLD war -- was required to do this.
Now I'm against violence, but it's also a very right thing to do a lot of the time. If someone forcefully takes the deed from my house and gives it to someone else based on nationality or race -- which is exactly what happened to the Palestinians -- then I am justified in fighting them until I get my house back.
Of course, if I do fight, they use that as justification to kill innocents. The cycle grows. It's important to look at the root causes. Someone IS right, and someone IS wrong. It's easy to sit down and say "all violence is bad, so i'm going to support the society that is more like my society, or the team that is more like my team" -- but that's lazy justice thinking.
They are also, what, 200 years dead?
And if you look at the American Indians today? Do you think their treatment is a shining example of what happens when you go along with your oppressor? Why don't you look into what life is like for the average American Indian. They, too, are a good 200 years dead from the original ones who lost their land, AND ARE STILL TREATED LIKE SHIT. Exactly why nobody should ever let their land be invaded.
Your points are really just helping my view, as far as I'm concerned.
The difference between Palestine in that is that THESE PEOPLE ARE STILL ALIVE, still the original families (and children of original families) that had this done to them.
It's very interesting to me how your cognitive dissonance did not permit your tiny brain from answering my question: How would you feel if your family home was taken away from you int he way I had described in earlier comments? You conveniently ignored that. How did you feel about their Jewish tenant being turned around and given their house for no reason? What's a matter? Brain can't comprehend that injustice happens and people don't just sit down and take it?
Giving people land they rightly own is not a concession.
And funny thing about Germany ... It had this thing that helps it become a real threat to the world -- this thing called ARMED FUCKING FORCES AND AN AIR FORCE THAT COULD AND WOULD DROP NUKES THAT THEIR MILITARY SCIENTISTS WERE DEVELOPING ON US... Something which Palestine lacks. No, some people with homemade Qassam rockets doesn't count. Show me their airforce. What's that? They don't have one? Yea, some fucking threat. You're a fucking coward if you're so scared by people with homemade rockets half a world away that you justify killing civilians with YOUR tax dollars. Someday someone as equally cowardly as you will justify killing an American using your exact logic.
And actually, America did NOTHING TO STOP HITLER. Only once Japan bombed us did we give a fuck, TO SAVE OUR OWN ASSES FROM BEING ATTACKED we entered the war, YEARS after we KNEW about the Jews being killed.
You see, just like with Rwanda and Darfur, if there's not oil in the region, WE DON'T GIVE A FUCK.
Nice try, but you fail. People like you did nothing to stop the Holocaust until people like you were attacked. People like you didn't give a shit until OUR TEAM, the americans, were attacked in Pearl Harbor. Meanwhile people like me were saying "stop fighting" years before.
Of course, WW2 was the one good foreign war we ever fought (besides independence, 'natch). It was the only war we ever fought in that had a clear good and evil side, and a clear side to join in.
But we didn't. We only joined in once WE WERE PERSONALLY THREATENED. Only then did PEOPLE LIKE YOU give a shit. And then you called for war. YOu would have been right - ONCE. Then. And only then.
p.s. I meant "The history of Gaza, and indeed all history is *relevant*". All history is RELEVANT. No history is IRRELEVANT. That is what I meant. Your idiocy makes me mad, and being made makes me mis-type. So double-fuck-you for that!
You are clearly a "team player" who just wants to justify what your team is. I guess you have divided people into "people who hate jews" and "people who don't", but that is the classification system of a fucking simpleton.
The history of Gaza, and indeed all history is irrelevant. If history is irrelevant, I guess the Holocaust is irrelevant too, huh? NO. NEITHER IS IRRELEVANT. You don't get to write away the history of the Team B just because you play for Team A. That is asshole high-schooler sports-level neanderthal thinking. Go watch a football game if that's your only capability of understanding conflict between two people. Or better off, professional wrestling, since you're so susceptible to grandstanding and sides talking smack about each other.
Your "but no...fucks" sentence is not comprehensible to me. "their own nation of they'd just quit being suck fucks". What is that supposed to mean? Are you typing through a translator or something?
It's funny that you are using the United Nations as an excuse for them existing, when they themselves have condemned the attacks.
Funny thing is -- the enemies and terrorists who kill innocent people -- they think EXACTLY LIKE YOU. Zero deaths is acceptable to them AND to you, and both them AND you are willing to wage wars where 100 innocents on both sides die. YOU ARE THE SAME. Have fun killing each other.
The assholes that fight must die on all sides. For this to be accomplished, it needs to be a fair fight so both sides can kill each other equally. Withdraw all american support. When all the violent fucks who want to kill each other decimate each other to nothingness, the few remaining civilians who don't want to fight can establish a secular, non-religious state that grants freedom to all -- something like America. Fancy that. But it ain't gonna happen now. That war is about as likely to end as the War IN Iraq. Maybe if we just kill enough of them tharr terrorists they'll all be dead? Hahaha!
By the way - If I kick you out of your house, and force you into the woods behind your house -- I am not occupying your woods!!!!! HAHA. Nice logic there, but you missed the point that they are there because they are forced there, and they are not occupied out of choice. And actually right now, they are, because the military is occupying them, and dropping leaflets telling them not to leave their houses. And actually, historically, they came in and forced people out of the houses their families owned, and then occupied them. Did you follow the link I provided? Read about my friend's family home. They didn't care about Jews. They had a Jewish tenant! But when Israel was created, the country forced their tenant to be the owner. He tried to sell the house back to them -- Israel wouldn't let him. So finally he sold it to other people and tried to give 100% of it to them -- but of course the guy refused the money, as this would be an acceptance of being forced out of your house. My question to you is -- would you just walk away and take this shit? Because those who did, and became Israeli citizens, had to live under martial law for 17 years afterwards. Some fucking reward for cooperating, but I know your puny brain doesn't want to think about such complicated things.
Your human shield logic is bullshit too. DO you understand compression? That if you compress people into a ghetto and not let them out, that it becomes a HIGH POPULATION CENTER. There's no such thing as human sheilds when the bombs you drop are so large they take out neigboring buildings. Say you live next door to a serial-killer -- does that give the police the right to drop a bomb on his house so big it kills YOU? No, it doesn't. Fortunately for us, America is pretty spread out compared to ghettos like Gaza.
Or better yet, say the World Trade Centers were in Gazi. We would TAKE THEM THE FUCK OUT if there was even ONE member of Hamas in them. Civilians be damned. Which is basically exactly what's happening.
Then someone on the other side who THINKS EXACTLY LIKE YOU has a friend killed, so now they, using your logic, are free to kill *100* of the enemy.
And then one of the enemy gets killed, and someone WHO THINKS EXACTLY LIKE YOU has a friend/family killed, and now USING YOUR LOGIC is justifiable in killing 100 people.
You are the same as Al Queda. You think 0 deaths of your people are acceptable, and are willing to make excuses to kill civilian in the name of your cause. The only difference between you and bin laden is that you happen to be a citizen of my country.
And actually, I support gun ownership and self-determination to the point that I think smoking bans should be illegal, every house should have a gun, and all drugs should be legal. Nice try to pen me down as a fucking liberal; I hate liberals. Don't call me a libertarian either :) (and in case i have to be clear, FUCK republicans).
http://clintjcl.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/politics-rants-is-israels-treatment-of-palestine-any-different-than-how-we-treated-the-native-americans/#comment-87050
You said the the Arab nations are blocking the recognition of Israel. But, that is not true. In 2002, the Arab League met in Beirut and unanimously agreed to recognize Israel and sign a peace agreement with them if Israel withdraws to its pre-1967 borders, addresses the 1948 refugee issue, and establishes a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem (the Arab side) as its capital. Then in 2007, it was again endorsed by the Arab League in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative
The Arabs (especially the oil-producing Gulf of Persia countries) have every interest to make peace with the Israelis because a lot of direct foreign investment does not makes it way there because of the geopolitical risk of the region. By removing that risk, a lot of money can flow to the region and enrich those countries.
But my point is this, I think there are two ways to think about this and they seem contradictory at first, but if you keep an open mind, you might agree they are not.
Point 1: The Israel of 1948 Does Not Have a Right to Exist.
Point 2: The Israel of 2008 Deserves to Exist.
So, let me start off with saying something. I do not support Hamas. As a Muslim and a half-Palestinian, Hamasâ(TM) actions and beliefs affect me more than they affect the Israelis. If its not self-explanatory why both are the case, then I can go into it in a later post if you want.
So, the first point is in defense of my mother. Her sister in Jordan has a legal title of ownership (certified by the British Authority) of a house my grandfather owns in Yaffa. Yaffa was renamed Jaffa when Israel was formed. My grandfather was a bureacrat who worked for the British in Palestine and he worked hard, saved money and bought land. He then then saved more money and built one floor of a house. He then saved more money and built two more floors where they all lived and he rented the ground floor to a Jew from Palestine. This tenant made the first floor into an ice cream shop. My mom remembers how her father would leave work at 2 pm and go straight to constructing the upper floors until dinner. The Jewish tenant (whose name I canâ(TM)t remember) used to give my mom free ice cream whenever she wanted and she used to call him âoeAmoâ (which is a very respectful term the young say to elders that means Uncle in Arabic). Back then there was no made-up Hannukah.. just Rosh Hashanah and my grandfatherâ(TM)s present to the Jewish tenant was free rent during that week. They also had a lot of orange trees that were on the property that her older brother used to go to pick fruit from for her that she constantly talked about (once a snake almost bit him and he teased her that her orange cravings almost got him killed). When she was dying of cancer in 2004 and was in the hospital staring blankly at nothing, I would ask her what sheâ(TM)s thinking about? She wouldnâ(TM)t say sheâ(TM)s thinking about her 50-year marriage, her 4 kids, her 8 grandchildren, her world travels or the relatively good life she lived, she would keep talking about how the ice cream tasted â" nearly 60 years before! She never got over that being away from her. In 1948, Israeli snipers were shooting random people in Jaffa. So my grandfather packed up the kids and sent them to Lebanon to stay for a few weeks because the Arab leaders were promising to drive the European Jews out â" that was the last time any of them would see their home. The Arab leaders were bribed (with power, and pro
AS long as people think "to stop deaths, we must kill people", the killing will never stop.
I suggest you read the history of why these people are pissed off. They absolutely should not stop fighting. 60 years going by does not make a wrong a right.
Go read this post and some of the comments and educate yourself.
And then ask yourself: What would the gun-totin' redneck american militias do if we were occupied by China in a similar fashion? Even if America wanted peace, you think they wouldn't be out there lobbing bombs at the occupying Chinamen every day? Of course they would. And they'd be hailed as heroes by americans left and right. The brave.
So in the end, my friend, you are a subjective fuck. You don't care about what's right; you care about being on the winning team. This may not be what you THINK you care about, due to your ignorance, but when faced with the facts, the only way anyone could side with a country that illegally occupies another is "jungle thinking" - might makes right, and always play on your team's side, even if your team is warmongering assholes that think you have to kill people in order to stop killing.
But I guess if a few years pass, then theft is okay? If I kick you out of your house, and 30 or 60 years pass -- does that mean if you try to take your house back from me, It's okay for me to kill your wife, kids, cousins, and parents? Because that's basically the logic being employed here -- both by Israel against Gaza, and by the US against Iraq and Afghanistan.
All you people simultaneously WANT killings because you think 0 killings are justified. You're all such hypocrites.
Because non-violent responses earned America's independence from Britain?
Because non-violent responses stopped Hitler from killing the European Jews?
Because non-violent responses stopped the genocide in Rwanda?
Actually, if you check your history, when Israel illegally stole the country from the people who had lived their their whole lives (side-by-side with non-european Jews, in many cases) -- some Palestinians DID decide to be non-violent, and become citizens of Isreal.
And guess what happened? 17 years of martial law. But only for the Palestinan citizens.
Sounds like they made the wrong choice to me. As the founding fathers who protected our freedoms via their VIOLENT revolution stated: I'd rather die on my feet, than live on my knees.
Try reading comments #7 and #10 (especially) here and enlighten yourself a little. So far, non-violence hasn't worked. Nor has violence. But you're using the violence as an excuse to perpetrate more violence itself. Sad: HERE.
Erin Brockovitch is based on a true story, by the way. To raise awareness that yes, things like this happen, and good luck getting any justice when they do.
I might have been unclear or argumentative, but what I'm saying is: Deregulation sucks as bad as not enforcing regulations -- it is de facto the same thing. I'll add to that that OVER-regulation really sucks as well! Some (or all!) situations need to be taken case-by-case, but regulations that exist also need to be enforced so as not to muddy up our conversations!
It's a good thing regulations protected the people who got screwed by Enr... oh wait.
It's a good thing regulations protected the town that the movie Erin Brockovicth was based on.. oh, wait.
You, sir, got lucky, and think that because things went a certain way for you, they go that way for everyone. They don't. The world is a larger sample set than the town you lived in.
Pardon me for not being specific enough for you. Tagged pictures on Usenet? That's really weak. How does search work when you don't have infinte retention anyway? But yea yea, the devil's in the fucking details, I get it. We've lost sight of our original conversation.
So what sites out there prior to 2000 let people tag and upload images? Don't say Kodakshare or anything like that. Those didn't even let you write captions.
The original BT client only supported 1 file at a time. What a joke. It also pre-allocated 100% of the space used. Talk about a waste of resource -- it was useless. Hardly anybody used it back then. Emule/Edonkey and even Limewire was easier to use back then. I'd say the real BT tipping point was Azureus, but it was a resource hog since it required Java. But since it required Java, I assume mac people got on it. uTorrent toppled it. It's nice to have torrents take 2% of your cpu instead of a constant 15-50% (I don't remember specifically, but it suuuucked and was not really possible to use with your primary computer if it's your music/video player), and to have a 160K binary that requires no installation to run (hmm.. thumbdrive at work on a locked down computer works), handles everything, and handles it well. (And still has a scheduler for bandwidth management.)