Slashdot Mirror
Gaza Debate Goes Virtual
Ian Lamont writes "The war of words over the conflict in Gaza has moved from the real world to the Internet. Besides a furious stream of mini-debates on Twitter between supporters of and critics of Israel's military actions, there have also been demonstrations in Second Life at an Israel-themed sim and a collection of Facebook applications, including 'QassamCount' and 'Stop Israel's war crimes in Gaza.' Another project — 'mapping the war in Gaza' — was launched by Al Jazeera and takes user-submitted reports, tweets, and Microsoft Virtual Earth to track the number of casualties and other developments."
In addition to this, the series of website defacements we discussed a few days ago has now extended to sites controlled by NATO and the US Army.
there have also been demonstrations in Second Life at an Israel-themed sim
...and it's only a matter of time until the virtual Islamic trolls fire virtual rockets and bomb their virtual busses while cowardly hiding amongst virtual women and children.
What, how does this go? Infidel! Terrorist! Am not. Are so! Twitter: insanely useless or just a huge waste of time?
Dog is my co-pilot.
Twitter debate? So Jews and Muslims follow each other on twitter?
The number one security issue for Obama is the US support of Israeli terrorism.
Massive funding and loans
Weapons
And cover and protection from world governing bodies
The Cold War is long over putting our support behind the nuclear armed South Africa of the Middle East makes absolutely no sense. Nor does supporting and whitewashing Israeli terrorism just because a bunch of Christian wackos think it is part of their ticket their particular version of Heaven through crazy end of world myths.
It sounds like having a "discussion" about this conflict is a great way to generate traffic to ones website.
This is how Wikipedia gets their info on the Gaza Conflict. Why have bother with [citation needed] when you can have a ninja to be your reliable source.
I should have said "virtual Zionists" instead of "virtual Jews" since a lot of Jews, including Israeli ones, have courageously condemned Israel's actions.
Israel, the Jewish state, wants to conflate itself with all Jews, and obfuscate the reality, but the fact is, it doesn't speak for all Jews anymore than Saudi Arabia speaks for all Muslims.
Israel has pretty much completely infiltrated the US government from top to bottom. Things will get better with the bat shit insane Neo Cons getting kicked out of office but purging the Israeli supports and flat out agents the Neo Cons littered the US government agencies with over the past decade is going to take years.
The US media no longer even tries to pretend to try to report news on the Middle East and is now just outright working as PR agents for every new Israeli atrocity against people living in Palestine or other countries.
people there get tired of killing each other. That doesn't seem like it is going to happen any time soon.
Since my side is completely blameless and your side is the obvious aggressor.
That's easily the stupidest thing I've seen in quite some time.
No wonder Israel is the pariah of the modern world. They're like the new South Africa - but with Weapons of Mass Destruction.
The US desperately needs to take go in and take out the Israeli weapons of mass destruction and illegal nuclear weapons. Take out a good portion of the military hardware the IDF terrorists use to murder civilians with.
Get the UN in there after the regime change and the leaders are put on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
We could massively cut our insane defense spending if we were no longer linked to supporting Israeli Terrorism.
One state, one country for the whole region. The economies and populations (especially in the West Bank) are so interspersed. Sure there are extremists on both sides who would hate it, but after a generation things would be drastically different. If you take a look at the West Bank, a Palestinian state is not viable unless there is massive evacuation of Israeli settlements, which is also unrealistic. Maybe it will take another 50+ years, but the only lasting peace/stability in the region will come by making the whole area one country.
Why in the world would you have a demonstration in Second Life? There's hardly anyone on there anymore now that all the hype has died down. It seems like the worst possible idea for getting publicity.
There's a flash game called Raid Gaza!. Player is Israel. Object: have highest palestinian death: israeli death ratio. Includes some nasty quotes by Israeli leaders.
It makes its point well; a minute into the game I found it more sickening than sarcastically funny.
There can be no peace with people that don't even recognise Israel's right to exist.
"You got to admit though, it's a lot easier to play the victim when you're starving, walled into a tiny area and can only defend themselves with scraps of old military hardware and bits of rubble against a rich country armed with the latest in US air power that assassinates their democratically elected leaders."
What are they "defending themselves" from? Oh right, retaliation from their rocket attacks.
It's a lot harder to play the victim when you chose the path of violence in the first place.
Imagine how this conflict would go if the Palestinian's weren't so cowardly and instead used non-violent protests. You know, like Gandhi.
Nah, that kind of stuff never works.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
No really. The definitive solution : me move all palestinian to say, the south pole. We move all Israelien to the north Pole. We let them cool down there. Then while everybody is gone, we double check no living being are left in the "holy" shitty land. Then we put atom bomb at regular space, to transform the whole shebang in a giant parking lot. Once this is done, we SALT the earth. In depth. Once this is done, we put all kind of traps, mine, bomb, automated gun sentries. Anybody trying to go back on their shitty holy land get blasted to smithern. Problem solved.
Some twenty eras ago people suggested that many conflicts might better had been solved by chess. Today, a Quake Deathmatch seems more appropriate.. And, it is virtual.
.
As long as I see 10 to 100 Palestinian casualties reported for every Israeli casualty, I will continue to view Israel as the aggressor and the one with the much larger share of the blame.
Sure, wall them in, take away their land by turning your settlers loose all over the place, freeze their bank accounts and turn off their electricity, bomb them with the latest US hardware, and then complain about how you 'just want to get on with your life' and whine about the occasional mortar while ignoring the damage your bombers and tanks do - just don't expect me to buy that.
"As long as I see 10 to 100 Palestinian casualties reported for every Israeli casualty, I will continue to view Israel as the aggressor and the one with the much larger share of the blame."
As long as you keep sharing your opinion, no one will care.
If the Muslims put down their weapons, there would be no more war.
If the Israelis put down their weapons, there would be no more Israel.
That alone tells you all you need to know about who is the good and who is the bad in this war.
When was the last time the Palestinians tried non-violent protests?
It would be very hard for Israel to justify a military response against people who openly acknowledge they have no desire for violence.
They would probably do it anyway, but world opinion would be decidedly different I suspect.
Instead you get geniuses who bring a knife to a machine gun fight, and complain that they're getting shot at for firing rockets into civilian areas.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
To give you a faaaaint idea of what I'm hinting at. Imagine if the US wasn't in the UN, and the UN decided that Native Americans needed their land back. So, they gave them the entire east coast of the US, to be their land. They were given basically whatever they wanted, and they began to push the US citizens gradually to the west, claiming various areas that are more desirable than others (IE, they take Yellowstone national park, leave us Death valley). They are far richer than the US citizens, and have far more support (although Canada and Mexico support the US citizens, lets just say the UN has marked them as third world terrorists). So, let's say that the US citizens scrap together some money, and a small group that want to win back their land, bomb the native Americans. The retaliation? The natives start bombing the civilians that didn't have a thing to do with it. They keep bombing, despite the UN telling them to stop.
Seems like a stretch.
Of course, I don't see why Israel was reinstated. People lived there after the Israelites got wiped out, and then the rest of the world told the Palestinians (arguably not the same exact people who did this), were told to shove over.
I'll probably get modded troll though...it's very mean and uncool to be pro-Palestine civilians. Nope, if you think Israel is wrong, you are a pro-terrorist.
There are three main factors that keep the US on the self destructive path of supporting Israeli state terrorism:
1. The Christian Fundamentalists who have their crazy beliefs about that region being part of their ticket to Heaven - they don't give a damn about how many civilian are killed by Israel.
2. The NeoCons in the US government who see Israel as a useful platform for their dreams of a US empire across the Middle East
3. Quirks of US election politics where a few key swing states just happen to have large Jewish populations that politicians end up being forced to pander to to get elected.
Nothing is going to change 1., they're just lunatics. Always will be
Things obviously are much better with 2. now that Bush is being dumped on the trash head of history, but the US government is riddled with the crazy people the NeoCons placed at all levels of agencies
Even with Obama's landslide he still completely sold out his foreign policy to the Pro-Israeli Terrorism Lobby, AIPAC in the process of getting elected. Perhaps if he had known he was going to win in a landslide he wouldn't of had to sell his soul to the anti-American AIPAC lobby.
Everyone who had hopes of the US getting safer under Obama better just get over it. The same support of Israeli State Terrorism that has threatened US security in the past will continue unchanged.
"So the occupation, colonization, and annexation aren't violent?"
Uh, yeah they are. Where did I make the argument that they weren't?
Which is why a non-violent response would be so effective, just like it has been in the past. Violence (from the Israelis) would be FAR less tolerated if they were using it against peaceful protesters.
Which was my point.
You seem to have trouble reading for comprehension, try actually reading what you're responding to please.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
Another "debate" is taking place on http://gaza.fotopages.com although its all pro-palestinian posts so far.
"Well actually the latest bout of fighting was begun when the Israeli government attempted to topple the elected government of the Palestinians."
Actually, you're wrong.
"The recent "first place" that you refer to was simply the end of a short, agreed ceasefire to encourage negotiation".
Thanks for actually admitting the truth. You equivocated, because you're biased, I get that.
Now, two things.
1) A non-violent response can begin at any time. The recent ceasefire was a perfect example, but instead The Plaestinians broke said ceasefire WITH VIOLENCE.
2) Unless people such as yourself stop pretending violence is somehow justified for your side but not for the other, the only thing you'll get is more violence.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
I suppose you believe that Israel should just accept the fact that no matter what they do, leave Gaze, let them elect their own government, etc. that the rockets will keep coming. The rockets will be come more and more sophisticated and eventualy kill more and more.
This notion of proportional response is bullshit. When someone is trying to kill you, then you you have the right to employ whatever amount of force is necessary to stop it.
Read this, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/09fighter.html?_r=3&scp=2&sq=islamic%20jihad&st=cse
"When we fire we run, but they hit back so fast. We run into the houses to get away." He continued smiling
"Don't you see that these people are hurting?" the militant was asked.
"But I am from the people, too," he said, his smile incandescent. "They lost their loved ones as martyrs. They should be happy. I want to be a martyr, too."
This is the kind of sick and twisted thinking that Israel is facing.
Best thing that could happen is for Israel and the Palestinian population is that the IDF martyrs every last one of these terrorist fucks.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
"I find it odd that you are so quick to condemn violence by some of the Palestinians, but not the aggression of the Israeli government."
I don't doubt that you find it odd, you seem to be pretending to know more about this than you actually do.
If you find it odd, it's because you don't understand the situation, and are drawing equivalency where none exists.
Israel is a state actor. It's response to attacks on its citizens are limited to primarily those available to police and armed forces. A non-violent response to someone who is actively seeking to wipe you off the earth is a bit difficult to coordinate, eh?
The Palestinians are not restricted in the same way.
Don't worry, you'll get this eventually.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
""Non-violent response" like mothers with babies in arms standing in the way death machines so they are forced to mow down innocent people?"
Yes.
"The Palestinians are doing that as well and are being demonized for using human shields."
You seem to be having difficulty thinking intelligently.
A person you force into a building to be killed by the military of the country you just fired rockets at is NOT a non-violent response.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
They razed cities, salted the earth, burned scared scrolls and even renamed the land from Judea to Palestine. Didn't work.
"If you and most people you know had someone close to them murdered by the Israeli army, I suspect you'd find it hard to think about non-violence."
Not at all, non-violent protests work so I'd win.
Winning in the end is what matters, not vengeance.
At least to me.
You seem to have different, less civilized priorities
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
"What happens at these non-violent protests, such as demonstrations against the construction of the "security wall" in the West Bank? The protesters get stoned by right wing Israeli settlers, or are dispersed by tear gas and rubber bullets from the Israeli army
Which is EXACTLY what they want.
Then some fucking imbecile fires off some rockets at Israel and undoes every single bit of sympathy those people who got stoned and shot at earned with their blood.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
"You Fucking Piece Of Garbage (Score:-1)
by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 10, @12:40PM (#26399553)
What a piece of shit you are.
Someone needs to drag your fucked in the head ass to Palestine and see first hand what it is like to live under constant Israeli Terrorism that is funded and supported by the world's sole superpower.
Would put an immediate end to the revolting garbage you are spewing you FUCKING HUMAN TURD."
I talk about non-violent protest, and a supporter of Palestine responded with that. That pretty much says it all.
T
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
"So, actually, the Palestinians are trying both violent and non-violent approaches"
No, they aren't.
ANY attempt at non-violence protest is immediately and totally undermined by accompanying violence. You cannot have any credibility when you are protesting non-violently in one place, and using violence in another
It's one or the other, and Palestinians chose violence.
And it's really telling how many people cam out of the woodwork to defend violence, or give lame idiotic excuses for why non-violence won't work.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
I doubt that kind of "peaceful resistance" would be popular among HAMAS supporters - its much more fun to burn cars and look jewellery stores in the real life.
Grandparent's right. You can't claim Israel's the victim when the casualties are so gigantically lopsided. There's "an eye for an eye" and then there's being totally disproportionate in your violence against a starving, destitute, walled in a ghetto, people.
Quite frankly, Israel's guilty of crimes against humanity; and its behaviour is only very barely skirting the boundaries of ethnic cleansing. Israel may well have the governments of the world sucking up to it like Neville Chaimberlain to a German, but, don't expect the world's people to be buying any it. (And speaking of which, the best thing we can all do as individuals to help is to boycott Israeli products. Let them know their war-mongering has a cost.)
will never end, til all of one side or the other is dead. We (the world) needs to back off, and let them go at it. Call it genocide, if you must, but when one side is killed off, or has lost their faith in God, feels abandoned and lost, and loses the will to fight, THEN we will see peace. Sun Tzu said as much. "It isn't necessary to defeat your enemy, it is only necessary to defeat your enemy's will to fight." Paraphrased, of course, from memory.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
"rocket and mortar fire all but completely stopped"
I sincerely doubt you'd be satisfied if the shelling of YOUR house had "all but completely stopped"
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
I agree with pretty much everything you've said there.
My point from the beginning was to question the efficacy of the current protests versus non-violent protests and their history of success.
I strongly suspect the situation would be much different if the Palestinians were able to mount an effective campaign of non-violence.
If nothing else, the equivocation from people who support Israel would vanish, and the Palestinians would look like the victims they are.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
It's a lot harder to play the victim when you chose the path of violence in the first place.
Where/When was the first place?, and by who?
I think it's pretty obvious that the Israeli government has "played the victim" definitely its fare share throughout history, but if you don't know much about the history well then it can be hard to distinguish who is the victim and who is the agressor....
Okay now before we begin I would like to say that the whole conflict deeply saddens me, but you have to take an objective look at the history.
Now if you want to go way back to the biblical/Torah references all you have to look at is exodus in which Moses led the Jews out of enslavement in Egypt, upon which Joshua took over leadership and attacked and exterminated (genocide) the Canaanites in order to secure the "promise land"
1. Part of it wasn't the Jews to begin with
2. They killed people in order to get it.
3. This is in Jewish text.
History did not begin in 1948 as the Israeli government wants everyone to believe.
Now really the modern day conflict begins around in the early 1900's with the Zionist congress in Switzerland,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Zionist_Congress
but let's move forward to 1937 with the Peel commission. The land now that encompasses modern day Jordan and Israel was then known as the British Mandate of Palestine. That's where the Palestinians get their name.
Now due to an influx of Jewish immigration (encouraged by the Zionist Congress) to the area this sparked lots of conflicts between the resident Arab population leaders and the new Jewish immigrants. Hostilities flared up on both sides and as the Mandate was soon to expire granting sovereignty to the region an agreement was to be sought. Given the populations at this time the Peel commission met to formulate the arrangement and this is what was proposed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Peel_map_pd.png
As you can see from the map it looks very different from today's common recognized maps of the region. The peel commission was not agreed upon by the Arabs or the Jewish immigrants as both sides wanted more than what was offered. The largest mistake was in part due to the Arab leaders stating that they could not assure the protection of the Jewish immigrants.
Now as we move forward in history this was debated back and forth as skirmishes still continued to flare up by both sides attacking the other until World War II broke out.
Now Britain, who still claimed the land as a province, was in dire need of financing for it's war with Germany. Members of the Zionist Congress in Switzerland helped in financing Britain's economic needs under pretense that a more favorable arrangement could be made regarding the Jewish Settlements.
In the meantime massive Jewish immigration began
to descend upon the British Mandate of Palestine exploding the population.
This of course sparks more conflicts with Arab leaders and residents in the area.
Now once the dust settles on WWII the British Mandate of Palestine expires and the moment it ends Israel declares it's independence. on May 14th, 1948. Now this declaration of independence doesn't sit well with the Arabs in the region as it was still thought to be up for discussion and arrangement.
With the aid of the British forces in the region whom the Arabs had no reason to believe would be allied with the Jewish population they were able to maintain there independence by defeating any aggressive forces put forth by the Arab population.
Here is a UN partition plan for Israel in 1947 a year before independence was declared.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png
Now what followed after that were a few short wars in which Is
"I searched pretty heavily for evidence of Hamas forcing people to be human shields but couldn't find any."
ANY evidence, or "evidence that I am satisified with"? If it's "ANY" you need to get better at web searching. If it's "evidence I'm satisfied with" then you're on your own, as you've displayed a level of bias that would be impossible for any evidence to overcome.
"but all of the evidence on that page is calls for people to voluntarily be human shields."
And by voluntarily, you mean "volunteer or risk the wrath of Hamas and their supporters".
Not even close to the same thing.
Last, this is for you
http://news.google.com/news?q=hamas+using+human+shields&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=news_result&resnum=1&ct=title
Go ahead and dismiss the evidence you don't like, your bias kind of makes your opinion irrelevant anyway.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
and exactly how many battalions does virtual have?
Posts, MyBio or Sig, may contain satire, sarcasm, bolded nouns be sardonic or even witty & be Church of SD
I am no revolutionary pioneer nor do I pretend that that I have any more political prowess than the next person. However I thought I would share an email I received from a relative who is currently traveling in the middle east regarding the current unfortunate situation:
"Hi everyone! I have so much to tell you all about my recent trip to Istanbul
and my job working as a medic on the ambulences of Magen David Adom through
the Jerusalem station (stay tuned for email in few days), but all of that
will have to wait because there is another more pressing issue that I would
like to discuss with you.
As I am sure you all know by now from watching the news, Israel has recently
come into the public eye in this situation it is facing with Hamas in Gaza.
What the media has done a lousy job with is explaining the full and real
story of what has been going on here. I was in Istanbul the morning of the
IDF's first air strike and was watching an Islamic News Station. I was
outraged and appauled with what I saw. "Israel Massacres. Unprovoked attack
- The Zionist regime attacks again." My jaw hit the floor. Unprovoked?
Massacres? Zionist regime? I was outraged at what the rest of the world was
falsely hearing about the situation occurring here. How will the Jewish
state ever be accepted in the world when the media is so one-sided and
spreading lies about the state?
THE REAL STORY from a front row seat to the situation. First of all,
Israel attacked the tunnels that had been dug on Israeli soil by Hamas
terrorists to kidnap Israeli soldiers and b ring them into Gaza as well as
tunnels to smuggle weapons into Gaza from Egypt. By destroying these
tunnels, Hamas will be deterred (for the time being at least), from
developing more rockets. Israel bombed 40 of these tunnels in 4 minutes.
There was no massacre - Israel eliminated a portion of the cause for terror
coming out of Gaza for innocent Isareli towns, like Sderot, Ashdod, Ashkelon
- which have all been affected my kasam rocket attacks from Hamas.
Also, what other country gives away the element of surprise just to take
precautions to spare innocent lives? Israel dropped leaflets throughout
Gaza telling the civilians to get out of the targeted zones.
This was not an unprovoked attack. Since we gave Gaza away - the Israeli
people have endured kasam rocket attack after rocket attack from Hamas in
the region. I was in Sderot 2 months ago and the aftermath of what Sderot
has had to endure can be seen so vividly by any visitor who takes a trip to
this town. Sderot has endured over 6,000 kasam rocket attacks. Every
street I walked through has a bomb shelter along the side walk. I spoke to
a 6 year old girl who told me that despite the seize fire, she is still
scared to shower or take a nap because she is scared that the Tzevah Adom
(or Red Alert) siren will go off and she will only have 15 seconds to take
cover. My heart broke for this little girl. I spoke with a woman, who lost
her neighbor to a kasam rocket, when he was outside gardening and couldn't
make it to the bomb shelter in the few short seconds of warning before the
kasam fell. These are just a few of the many stories of the people of Sderot
who have suffered and lost loved ones due to the constant shelling coming
out of Gaza on their town.
But still - Israel did nothing. What other country would endure rockets
being dropped on their towns daily, and still stay quiet and not react? The
answer: no one but Israel. Israel wants peace more than anything. I truly
believe that Israel would give back all of
All I can say is, if the Wall Street Journal is now finally printing articles that say Israel is committing war crimes then you KNOW things have gotten out of hand.
God why are you people so totally incapable of reading worth a fuck?
The first idiot AC made the claim that nonviolence doesn't work.
I gave example of why he was wrong.
Your moron ass AGREED with me, but your reading comprehension is so shitty that you didn't realize it.
No wonder you posted AC, you must know you're a fucking idiot.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
"Where/When was the first place?, and by who?"
Doesn't matter.
A policy of strict non-violence TODAY moots everything you posted.
If the Palestinians engaged in a policy of non-violence, then the stupid justifications of current violence by Israel as a result of historical differences would evaporate.
"Well, Hamas shelled us three years ago" is FAR FAR FAR less of a justification that "Hamas shelled us yesterday".
In other words, you posted a long winded reply that really has fuck all to do with my point.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
You can use Livestation.com for a continuous Al Jazeera (English) feed that you won't get on your cable. I won't claim it's objective, but I don't think you'll hear an unfiltered viewpoint from the "other side" in the U.S. media. Also, they have the only reporters inside of Gaza, since Israel has apparently banned the mainstream media.
If the UN had its way, Israel would be wiped off the map. Let's face it, Europeans hate Jews and will always hate Jews, even when Europeans themselves don't even see themselves as much as Christians any more. It's just irrational.
This is my sig.
For all of this talking about Palestinians, you know, when are they actually going to accomplish something with what they have. When is any arab state going to do anything. Let's face it, islamic cultural is terrible right now and will remain so until they choose to not be ignorant. Why is it that a few million jews have contributed more to science and the arts than a billion muslims? Geez, are jews really that smart, or are muslims that ignorant.
This is my sig.
Each coffin on this page represents a single person killed in the on-going Israel-Gaza conflict, which started on December 27, 2008. This page is updated regularly with new numbers taken from BBC's coverage on the conflict. http://moiz.ca/coffin2.htm
If they had a virtual deathmatch, they'd never stop fighting because neither side wants to ever admit defeat or can accept a peace of co-existence. So, the only deathmatch that there can be is a real one.
This is my sig.
"The events of history and poor decisions of the past influence and create the problems of today. How quickly you are to write off history."
What they're doing isn't working. As to "quick to write off history" well, sure if you think considering thousands of years of failed action and deciding to act differently that you have for thousands of years is "quick", but most people are smarter than that.
"Do you tell your doctor not to look at your past medical records? I hope not."
Do you live your life by stupid inaccurate analogies? I hope not.
See the reason your analogy fails (apart from being puerile) is tat I HAVE CONSIDERED HISTORY, AND IT SAYS THAT THESE PARTIES ENGAGING IN VIOLENCE DOESN'T WORK.
A better analogy would be insisting on getting penicillin from my doctor for treating something, even though penicillin hasn't EVER WORKED in the past for treating my illness.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
That's true, but it's also convenient for Egypt to keep things this way because it gives the Egyptian government (like the other Arab governments in the region) a very convenient distraction from all of its domestic problems. Hey, Egyptians, ignore our mismanagement of the economy, the torture that goes on in our prisons, and the pervasive corruption in our government -- instead, get angry at what the Israelis are doing to our Palestinian brethren! In the end these governments don't really want to help the Palestinians either -- they'd rather have big bad Israel as a convenient punching bag to distract their people's attention. It's the same thing Fidel Castro used to do with the US -- he loved the US embargo for that reason.
None of this excuses Israel, of course -- what they're doing in Gaza is both cruel and counterproductive. Besides the humanitarian tragedy, in the long run it only undermines Israeli security as well.
"To be fair, I don't think there's anyone posting on this story that you haven't called "fucking stupid". Well, except for yourself, of course. ;)"
That's not being fair, that's lying.
In other words, "I have DEFINITELY NOT called everyone engage in this discussion "fucking stupid", and by suggesting such, you are a LIAR."
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
haim moishe
@abdullah UR a ghey muslim terrorist LOL now eat lead 7 minutes ago from twitterific
abdullah
@IDF in your face infidels! radio shack DIY rocket kit FTW!! 9 minutes ago from web
ehud
taking a massive crap while ordering more bombs against @hamas 16 minutes ago from twhirl
Because non-violent responses earned America's independence from Britain?
Because non-violent responses stopped Hitler from killing the European Jews?
Because non-violent responses stopped the genocide in Rwanda?
Actually, if you check your history, when Israel illegally stole the country from the people who had lived their their whole lives (side-by-side with non-european Jews, in many cases) -- some Palestinians DID decide to be non-violent, and become citizens of Isreal.
And guess what happened? 17 years of martial law. But only for the Palestinan citizens.
Sounds like they made the wrong choice to me. As the founding fathers who protected our freedoms via their VIOLENT revolution stated: I'd rather die on my feet, than live on my knees.
Try reading comments #7 and #10 (especially) here and enlighten yourself a little. So far, non-violence hasn't worked. Nor has violence. But you're using the violence as an excuse to perpetrate more violence itself. Sad: HERE.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
I don't think all these people will fit in Poland.
"Well, if the people doing the shelling were being "all but completely" starved by my government's actions, I might consider a point of view that differs from your Zionist apologia."
One that includes being randomly shelled?
REALLY? You'd be willing to be SHELLED at random?
No, you wouldn't. You're a bloviating liar.
"But then again you're a Zionist shill whose comments on this thread show you to be abusive as well as stupid"
Yes, OF COURSE, I'm a "Zionist shill" despite coming out in SEVERAL posts for the Palestinians, and criticizing Israel.
In fact, my point from the beginning has been non-violent protest from Palestine will get them what they want.
Is your reading so bad that you can't see that? It seems to be.
Perhaps in the future you should read the whole thread, so you don't make such an embarassing mistake in the future.
As to abusive, "zionist shill" and "stupid" don't exactly show your tolerance.
So now you're an idiot and a hypocrite.
As to stupid, you're the one who thinks allowing yourself to be shelled and attacked by rockets is a good idea.
So, it appears I'm a stupid zionist shill, who owned you totally.
What does that say about you?
You're dismissed.
AS long as people think "to stop deaths, we must kill people", the killing will never stop.
I suggest you read the history of why these people are pissed off. They absolutely should not stop fighting. 60 years going by does not make a wrong a right.
Go read this post and some of the comments and educate yourself.
And then ask yourself: What would the gun-totin' redneck american militias do if we were occupied by China in a similar fashion? Even if America wanted peace, you think they wouldn't be out there lobbing bombs at the occupying Chinamen every day? Of course they would. And they'd be hailed as heroes by americans left and right. The brave.
So in the end, my friend, you are a subjective fuck. You don't care about what's right; you care about being on the winning team. This may not be what you THINK you care about, due to your ignorance, but when faced with the facts, the only way anyone could side with a country that illegally occupies another is "jungle thinking" - might makes right, and always play on your team's side, even if your team is warmongering assholes that think you have to kill people in order to stop killing.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
http://clintjcl.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/politics-rants-is-israels-treatment-of-palestine-any-different-than-how-we-treated-the-native-americans/#comment-87050
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Facts:
Israel is not occupying Gaza
The terrorists in Gaza elect to wage war with Israel and then hide among their women and children like sorry, cowardly sick fucks.
They have had their chance to have peace and prosperity and they rejected it.
They have as part of their government charter the stated purpose to "destroy" Israel.
They state publicly that they want to kill Jews and even die while doing it.
The "public" elected these scumbags to power.
In WWII, the public supported the Nazi regime. They died by the hundreds of thousands for doing so as the regime they supported waged a world war.
This conflict will not end until one side utterly destroys the other.
As far as you go, I'm sure you'd like to go to Gaza and sing Cuumbaya with them but they'd probably just cut your head off.
And despite the inane analogy you make with China and the U.S., I highly doubt that the "rednecks" would attack and then go hide among their women and children, or launch rockets and mortars from atop occupied school buildings.
They do this because they know that morons like you will side with them.
Your jungle thinking comment is merely an extrapolation of the mindset that says people should not have the right to defend themseleves, but call the police. Crazy man coming at you with a knife? Run, don't fight back. Give him what he wants.
Sorry, crazy man with a knife gets put down like the animal he is. Crazy country get's put down just the same.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
As a European I've got to say that's absolute rubbish. Can't believe you got modded up for peddling such bullshit.
I think your track record proves it. Let's see, prior to World War II, there's 2000 years of anti-semitism. Then, during the war, well, there's plenty of people collaborating on the holocaust, and then, after the war, pretty much every European state unanimously sides with Islamic states in continual condemnations of Israel, no matter what she does. I can't how many times the only reason some resolution condemning Israel made it through the General Assembly on a unanimous vote, and that really means, Europeans sided with the Arabs to curry favor with the muslims. And, you did it again in opposition to Operation Desert Storm, and you bitched at the USA until the world is going to basically let Iran get the atomic bomb!
This is my sig.
By the way - If I kick you out of your house, and force you into the woods behind your house -- I am not occupying your woods!!!!! HAHA. Nice logic there, but you missed the point that they are there because they are forced there, and they are not occupied out of choice. And actually right now, they are, because the military is occupying them, and dropping leaflets telling them not to leave their houses. And actually, historically, they came in and forced people out of the houses their families owned, and then occupied them. Did you follow the link I provided? Read about my friend's family home. They didn't care about Jews. They had a Jewish tenant! But when Israel was created, the country forced their tenant to be the owner. He tried to sell the house back to them -- Israel wouldn't let him. So finally he sold it to other people and tried to give 100% of it to them -- but of course the guy refused the money, as this would be an acceptance of being forced out of your house. My question to you is -- would you just walk away and take this shit? Because those who did, and became Israeli citizens, had to live under martial law for 17 years afterwards. Some fucking reward for cooperating, but I know your puny brain doesn't want to think about such complicated things.
Your human shield logic is bullshit too. DO you understand compression? That if you compress people into a ghetto and not let them out, that it becomes a HIGH POPULATION CENTER. There's no such thing as human sheilds when the bombs you drop are so large they take out neigboring buildings. Say you live next door to a serial-killer -- does that give the police the right to drop a bomb on his house so big it kills YOU? No, it doesn't. Fortunately for us, America is pretty spread out compared to ghettos like Gaza.
Or better yet, say the World Trade Centers were in Gazi. We would TAKE THEM THE FUCK OUT if there was even ONE member of Hamas in them. Civilians be damned. Which is basically exactly what's happening.
Then someone on the other side who THINKS EXACTLY LIKE YOU has a friend killed, so now they, using your logic, are free to kill *100* of the enemy.
And then one of the enemy gets killed, and someone WHO THINKS EXACTLY LIKE YOU has a friend/family killed, and now USING YOUR LOGIC is justifiable in killing 100 people.
You are the same as Al Queda. You think 0 deaths of your people are acceptable, and are willing to make excuses to kill civilian in the name of your cause. The only difference between you and bin laden is that you happen to be a citizen of my country.
And actually, I support gun ownership and self-determination to the point that I think smoking bans should be illegal, every house should have a gun, and all drugs should be legal. Nice try to pen me down as a fucking liberal; I hate liberals. Don't call me a libertarian either :) (and in case i have to be clear, FUCK republicans).
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
If the Negroes put down their weapons, there would be no more war.
If the Whites put down their weapons, there would be no more Apartheid south africa.
That alone tells you all you need to know about who was the good and who was the bad in that war.
FRA: STFU GTFO
This sounds most dumb when explained like this..
"Here have Gaza"
"Get out of Gaza"
*Bombs drop on your house*
Also where do you expect these people to go? They can't even escape if they wanted to, there's no where to run.
You can't have it both ways, either people were killed or they weren't. In short when you say two things which conflict with each other it's called lying.
You are clearly a "team player" who just wants to justify what your team is. I guess you have divided people into "people who hate jews" and "people who don't", but that is the classification system of a fucking simpleton.
The history of Gaza, and indeed all history is irrelevant. If history is irrelevant, I guess the Holocaust is irrelevant too, huh? NO. NEITHER IS IRRELEVANT. You don't get to write away the history of the Team B just because you play for Team A. That is asshole high-schooler sports-level neanderthal thinking. Go watch a football game if that's your only capability of understanding conflict between two people. Or better off, professional wrestling, since you're so susceptible to grandstanding and sides talking smack about each other.
Your "but no...fucks" sentence is not comprehensible to me. "their own nation of they'd just quit being suck fucks". What is that supposed to mean? Are you typing through a translator or something?
It's funny that you are using the United Nations as an excuse for them existing, when they themselves have condemned the attacks.
Funny thing is -- the enemies and terrorists who kill innocent people -- they think EXACTLY LIKE YOU. Zero deaths is acceptable to them AND to you, and both them AND you are willing to wage wars where 100 innocents on both sides die. YOU ARE THE SAME. Have fun killing each other.
The assholes that fight must die on all sides. For this to be accomplished, it needs to be a fair fight so both sides can kill each other equally. Withdraw all american support. When all the violent fucks who want to kill each other decimate each other to nothingness, the few remaining civilians who don't want to fight can establish a secular, non-religious state that grants freedom to all -- something like America. Fancy that. But it ain't gonna happen now. That war is about as likely to end as the War IN Iraq. Maybe if we just kill enough of them tharr terrorists they'll all be dead? Hahaha!
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
t's not because Europeans are anti-semitic or pro-muslim. It's simply because we have our own (usually quite sensible) opinions on how to find a resolution to the ongoing conflicts and Israeli politics is often (not always) the limiting factor.
Sensible? I think long standing anti-semetism automatically makes Israeli's actions seem less palpable to Europeans. If European standards for Israel were applied to similar European problems, Kaliningrad and Danzig would be German, Basque would be a separate country, and the Island of Ireland would be one country. But oh no, Israel is the only place on earth that has to accept land for peace. France doesn't have to. Poland doesn't have to. Britain doesn't have to, but then Israel does.
This is my sig.
Errr, strange question. Granted, the middle east (obviously mainly muslim) hasn't contributed a great deal to science in recent years
Recent years, that's 500 years ago since Islam made any real contributions to science and the arts. Secondly, babylonians, the world's first battery, etc, were all cultures that pre-dated Islam, and well, Christianity for that matter.
It seems like your views are somewhat narrow-minded and blinkered
500 years is an aweful long time without a showing in science or the arts dude. Face it, Islam is at a cultural dead end, a self inflicted dark ages.
This is my sig.
And your Grandmother's entire fucking family dies in the Holocaust because dicks like you didn't think it was worth it, right, justified, etc. to stop Hitler.
Ironic isn't? People who thought JUST LIKE YOU are responsible for Hitler's unempeded rise to power. In a way, they were responsible for the Holocaust.
And here's News To You buddy: All the violent fucks won't kill each other. One side will always win, then they will come after you.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
As happened in other conflicts, I think we should start doing human DDoS protests against Israel embassys, and Governments from USA and European countires (and any other country who supports the genocide in Palestine).
DDoS, if perfeformed *only* by humans, and not by botnets or any other form of automated DDoS, are the equivalent of strikes on the Internet. So I think it's perfectly legitimate, and more in this situation where 'legitimation', and not 'legality' is the keyword, since we've seen that our Governments doesn't consider Israel a criminal state outside internation and national legality.
So, go on human DDoS protesters, go on resistence!
By the way, to see an example of an early (1998) netstrike, see http://old.thing.net/wwwboard1/messages/650.html or just google for netstrike.
And actually, America did NOTHING TO STOP HITLER. Only once Japan bombed us did we give a fuck, TO SAVE OUR OWN ASSES FROM BEING ATTACKED we entered the war, YEARS after we KNEW about the Jews being killed.
You see, just like with Rwanda and Darfur, if there's not oil in the region, WE DON'T GIVE A FUCK.
Nice try, but you fail. People like you did nothing to stop the Holocaust until people like you were attacked. People like you didn't give a shit until OUR TEAM, the americans, were attacked in Pearl Harbor. Meanwhile people like me were saying "stop fighting" years before.
Of course, WW2 was the one good foreign war we ever fought (besides independence, 'natch). It was the only war we ever fought in that had a clear good and evil side, and a clear side to join in.
But we didn't. We only joined in once WE WERE PERSONALLY THREATENED. Only then did PEOPLE LIKE YOU give a shit. And then you called for war. YOu would have been right - ONCE. Then. And only then.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
No, I believe that Israel should recognize that grievous injustices towards Palestinians were committed when the state was founded, and ever since; withdraw every single settler and soldier from the West Bank, offer citizenship and substantial reparations to the current inhabitants of Palestine, and recognize that Israel has no more inherent 'right to exist' than any other state does.
That would not quite atone for all the killing Israel is guilty of, but would create something resembling a starting point for a peace process.
> When someone is trying to kill you, then you you have the right to employ whatever amount of force is necessary to stop it.
It's funny how you apply this to one side only in the conflict, isn't it?
Churchill tried to warn the world about Hitler. Warmonger they called him. Nevil Chamberlin thought he could bargin, make concessions, JUST LIKE YOU.
No one in Europe and America did anything until they were attacked because they thought JUST LIKE YOU.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Giving people land they rightly own is not a concession.
And funny thing about Germany ... It had this thing that helps it become a real threat to the world -- this thing called ARMED FUCKING FORCES AND AN AIR FORCE THAT COULD AND WOULD DROP NUKES THAT THEIR MILITARY SCIENTISTS WERE DEVELOPING ON US... Something which Palestine lacks. No, some people with homemade Qassam rockets doesn't count. Show me their airforce. What's that? They don't have one? Yea, some fucking threat. You're a fucking coward if you're so scared by people with homemade rockets half a world away that you justify killing civilians with YOUR tax dollars. Someday someone as equally cowardly as you will justify killing an American using your exact logic.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
"grievous injustices towards...were committed when the state was founded"
Substitute just about any nation or nationality and your argument is the same. So who would you have be next?
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
"Just about any nation", hardly. Some, sure. For example, South Africa faced up to the grievous injustices that have been done under apartheid, and so they now have a nation that's not without problems (who is?) but basically at peace. Before that happened, Mandela was also labeled a 'terrorist' by SA and US govts.
Most other nations with skeletons in the cupboard persist in denial, just like Israel does, and continue the cycle of bloodshed. As long as the other side is regarded as 'terrorist scum', the killing will go on.
"Giving people land they rightly own is not a concession"
So this would seem be what is at the heart of you inane ranting. So are you going to give up your home to the indigenous peoples of Canada?
Or perhaps you would think them justified in blowing a child care center.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Every nation on earth at one time belonged to different peoples, was taken over by force and a new nation created or an existing nation made larger.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
They are also, what, 200 years dead?
And if you look at the American Indians today? Do you think their treatment is a shining example of what happens when you go along with your oppressor? Why don't you look into what life is like for the average American Indian. They, too, are a good 200 years dead from the original ones who lost their land, AND ARE STILL TREATED LIKE SHIT. Exactly why nobody should ever let their land be invaded.
Your points are really just helping my view, as far as I'm concerned.
The difference between Palestine in that is that THESE PEOPLE ARE STILL ALIVE, still the original families (and children of original families) that had this done to them.
It's very interesting to me how your cognitive dissonance did not permit your tiny brain from answering my question: How would you feel if your family home was taken away from you int he way I had described in earlier comments? You conveniently ignored that. How did you feel about their Jewish tenant being turned around and given their house for no reason? What's a matter? Brain can't comprehend that injustice happens and people don't just sit down and take it?
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
1) Um, NO, actually. In your own example you cite that the Civil War was what had to be ignited to garner their release. And what a war it was; the most american lives lost in any. I don't think that's exactly a shining example of non-violence freeing slaves, no matter how you try to twist it. Someone sitting on the sidelines saying "we shouldn't fight" while other people fight and free that someone does not connote that their non-violence did the freeing.
2) It is be definition a different situation. It's kind of hard to compare a situation to itself, when making a list of comparisons. It also means the list can never have more than 1 entry :)
3) I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm aware of all this -- but the Jews didn't get freed via non-violent tactics. A war -- a WORLD war -- was required to do this.
Now I'm against violence, but it's also a very right thing to do a lot of the time. If someone forcefully takes the deed from my house and gives it to someone else based on nationality or race -- which is exactly what happened to the Palestinians -- then I am justified in fighting them until I get my house back.
Of course, if I do fight, they use that as justification to kill innocents. The cycle grows. It's important to look at the root causes. Someone IS right, and someone IS wrong. It's easy to sit down and say "all violence is bad, so i'm going to support the society that is more like my society, or the team that is more like my team" -- but that's lazy justice thinking.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
I sure as hell would not go find a school and blow it up. I wouldn't would blow up a bus full of civilians...why, would you? Yeah, it sucks for them. It has sucked for a lot of people all over the world throughout history. The Israelites were kicked out of the middle east by the Arabs. It sucked for them too. The Arabs conquered a large part of the middle east, should they give up their lands?
How about when they take my land and give it to a Condo developer? Should I go downtown and blow up city hall?
How about having my money taken away by the Feds for the Ponzi scheme called Social Security?
Where do you draw the line? I draw it having Rockets fired at me. Apparently you draw it at being evicted.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Simply facts
http://www.occupation101.com/
The people now firing rockets on the Israelis are a subset -- not 100%, not even 50%. (The American Revolution had less than 10% support, you know! Most people are docile and don't want to fight!)
So there you have it: An entire society can be crushed by one, and that's okay with you. But should a small subset fight back -- then you support a bully continuing to crush them at a genocidal race. Real nice. Genocide victims committing genocide on another race. Their inability to learn reminds me of your inability to learn.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
http://weblogs.asp.net/rosherove/archive/2009/01/05/political-the-truth-about-the-palestinian-loss-of-land-1946-to-2000.aspx
Read it if you dare.
Israel has been attacked from day one. They were never the initial aggressors. They took barren desert and created their nation. Add to that the fact that there has never been a state of Palestine.
You bring a knife to a gun fight, be prepared to get your head blown off. If you shoot at someone from behind your wife and children, you are responsible for their deaths.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
has nothing to do with retaliations for rockets fired. It is all due to Internal israeli politics .. the upcoming elections in Febraury is the prime motivator for the offensive.
The leader that can kill the most Palestinians and can rectify the embarrassment of Lebanon in 2006 .. will come up ahead in the elections.
The Israeli presidency is what is at stake here and The currency is the Palestinian body count.
Um let's see, the UN comes in and says "you can't live here anymore". Are you saying you would just pussy out and not attack someone who did this to you?
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Anyway, I must be missing something, because I don't think that link really helps you here, bud.
UN came, violated the rights of people, they fought back, tried to take their own land with military action, and were greeted with the Deir Yassin amssacre, and things only ever got worse since... But the root cuase is people's rights being violated. And I wonder if you're going to answer my question about whether you'd puss out if someone forcefully took 100% of your family's property...
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
That is apparently the way the U.N. and all it's supporters want you to think.
Even then, say China attacks and takes your home. Are you going to go up a bus full of school children?
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
I'll coin the phrase. It's when you want to glass a 'country' that cannot leave well enough alone.
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
So, very funny example you give there. If I had no choice but to fire rockets randomly or do nothing, I'd be brave and fight for my country. You seem to be pro-fighting, but now you're saying you'd just sit it out like a pussy. I don't believe you.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
I answered it. I would not kill women and children or other innocents. Unlike apparently you would. Oh, but Israel is killing women and children you say. It's one thing to strap on a bomb, take an automatic weapon and go to a market, school, or other place and kill women and children. It's another thing to shoot back at someone shooting at you from behind their women and children.
Like I said, what happened in the past if worth shit. Otherwise you'd have the locals blowing your ass up because Canada took their land. Or your would think it appropriate that the Apache's start talk scalps again at the local mall.
Rx for peace:
The Palistinians stop blowing people up, shooting rockets, etc.
Elect a government that is actually interested in living in peace and not constant war.
Put the same amount of energy into infrastructure/education/etc. in Gaza and the West Strip as they do smuggling arms and stockpiling weapons.
Accept the fact that Israel is here to stay.
Leave Israel the fuck alone.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
It's always interesting to me that when a small group fights a larger group (i.e. terrorist attack on a large army/nation), that it's considered "asymmetric warfare" and therefore terrorism --- but when you turn the tables, and have the larger army attack even higher civilians -- that is not called terrorism, that is called defending themselves.
ESPECIALLY if you kill more bad guys. For instance "X killed 100, 20 of them civilians". Most people will think, "that's fine. 20 civilians died, but we got 80 bad guys".
You do realize that's the same logic suicide bombers use. Most muslims hate them -- especially when they kill Muslims. 911 killed some 100+ Muslims, so a lot of Muslims don't support that.
But people like you -- warmongers -- and people like the suicide bombers and actual terrorists (which do exist) -- they are quite content killing a few good people as long as they think they've killed bad people.
The only difference between you and them is that your respective definitions of who is bad merely point to the other side.
I wish I could teleport you all into a steel-caged deathmatch so you could all fight each other until no one is left (not even anyone to "come for you", as you laughingly claim). I'd love to see the evil people on both side STOP, but it's not going to happen. Especially with people like you getting online to talk about how killing civilians is okay as long as it's THEIRS AND NOT YOURS. What a hypocrite! You want to kill people just like you! haha
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Grandparent's right. You can't claim Israel's the victim when the casualties are so gigantically lopsided.
This is very likely one of the dumbest things I've ever read. According to you, just because you are more powerful, others should be allowed to kill your people at will.
Learn more about the knuckle dragging mentality which permeates the thinking in that part of the world. That "gigantically lopsided" force is what allows the majority of Israel to have any sort of quality of life.
You can not reason with ignorant, blind, hatred. Until the Palestinians actually desire a life other than warmongering and professional victim, they are reaping what they sow. Change is completely in the hands of the Palestinian people. If they want peace, its theirs for the asking. The only catch is, they have to be sincere this time, unlike the hundreds of other times in the past.
You evidently have forgotten about the many homocide bombers blowing buses and schools. and gun men mowing down children. And don't even think of disputing these things happened and were perpetrated by the PLO.
You put a Rockets and other weapons on top of a school full of kids, you are responsible for their deaths.
This is the MO of these putrid fucks. Hide behide the innocent and when the innocent die, whine to the world and idiots like you take up their cause.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Again you miss the point, or ar ignoring it.
I come into your living room and shoot you and your family...bad.
You come at me and my family shooting while holding your kids kids in front of you, and as a result you and your kids die. Regrettable, but tough shit...your fault.
In fact in the court of law, if you take a hostage or do anything else that results in the death of a third person, you are responsible.
The terrorists that you so sympathize with are responsible for every last death in Gaza.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
And the human shields thing is a fucking myth. They live in a densely populated area. When you drop huge american bombs that take out entire buildings, that's not human shields, that's collateral damage. Remember the Danish UN school they just bombed? NO FIGHTERS THERE, ASSHOLE. Look it up. Israel isn't talking about it because it makes them look bad.
And actually, the preferred method of bombing is roadside bomb. The suicide bombers are a minority, like the white supremecist skinheads that are rising in popularity in america and germany due to hatemongers like you.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
You keep right on citing the U.N. and Hamas. They call anyone not wearing a uniform a civilian whether they have a gun and are shooting at you or not.
I believe shit from Hamas and the U.N.
As far as hate goes you seem to be displaying the majority of here. But that's the way of the Left, isn't it?
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
By the way, all the news of what's going on in Gaza is from Hamas and they don't want anyone there to ruin their little propgand bonaza.
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/01/10/world/worldwatch/entry4711989.shtml
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
What you don't understand is that the underdogs here CAN'T CHOOSE TARGETS VIA GPS-GUIDED SMART-BOMBS, because they have no fucking air force or real military. They can only hit easy targets BECAUSE OF THIS. It's not a matter of morals, it's a matter of practicality..
I'm anti violence -- but if someone fucks me so bad that I have to decide to go to war -- I might not have a choice where to aim. Israel, however, has all the choice they need. Sattelite imagery, GPS, and yet when Denmark gives them the coordinates of a school they can't bomb it?
Kind of like when we "accidentally" bombed the Chinese embassy in Kosovo -- were you naive enough to think that an accident too?
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Sigh...I said I would not target women and children. Plenty of soldiers and government officials to shoot at. And I would then not go hide in my kids room. Apparently you would just start shooting everyone in sight and then hide behind your wife when they came for you. Nice.
And the underdogs can avoid women and children by staying out of the schools, cafes, buses, etc.
And you will have to talk to Clinton about the Chinese Embassy.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Where do you get this stuff???? So who do you believe then, Fox News? Al Jazeera is the only one inside of Gaza because Israel wont let press in. So you can believe the people who are there, or the people who justified the bullshit Iraq war with lies about weapons of mass destruction -- even Rumsfeld admitted they weren't there. But he still wont admit to lying, lol.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
You don't seem to understand that these terrorists do not operate in a vacuum. They are a result of us-driven policy. That doesn't make it right, but if I beat the shit out of my kid every day and he becomes a serial killer -- am I blameless for his victims?
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Ahh.. so we are at the It's America's Fault argument.
Regardless of blame, they sure as hell would put your kid down if he was a serial killer now wouldn't they.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
The Israeli/Palestinian non-stop conflict is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It appears to be based on words in a book that said that siblings of the issue of Abraham would hate each other forever. They have in the past, they do currently, and it looks like they will in the future. There is no resolution to this conflict. I suggest that the U.S., the E.U.; and other power blocks; stay out of the conflict and stop wasting billions of economic resources trying to solve a problem that cannot be solved.
Anger at senseless deaths is not "hate". Calm justification of killing is a great deal closer.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
The difference is that for nearly all those countries, this happened in the past and it is too late to do anything to help those populations that were displaced or murdered. Israel and Palestine is a process that is happening now and we still have a chance to prevent unmeasurable suffering and death.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
>and criticism of Israeli actions is not dependent on "hating jews"
A lot of it is.
As long as I see 10 to 100 Palestinian casualties reported for every Israeli casualty, I will continue to view Israel as the aggressor
Oh how I love morons when they open their dumb mouths and speak what they think is deep insight. By your retarded definition the US was the aggressor in its 1942-45 war against Japan. England and France were the aggressors in their 1939-1940 war with Germany.
Why is it that thinking is so hard for these people? Were they born with no brains?
Presumably by murdering and displacing the Israelis eh?
A little Canadian Speak for ya there.
For six months Hamas was sending rockets into Israel and Israel did nothing. Where were all you folks protesting the violence then? Oh, It's just a few rockets, not a lot of people were hurt. No big deal, really.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
People like you are a joke. You just posted a comment on slashdot saying it's okay to kill innocent people if some people in their country have twisted thinking.
Eh, no, he didn't. He said that it was OK for IDF to martyr every one of the twisted terrorist fucks. Not the innocent civilians. Please try to read before you respond.
Interestingly you don't seem to get what the Hama "soldier" said. Basically he said that they fire at IDF, then they hide in houses. Given that Gaza is fairly over populated, do you think these houses are empty? No, they are full of civilians.
What this terrorist nutcase was saying can be summarized as follows:
He is a sick fuck this terrorist, and as a rabid dog he needs to be put down.
I'm not in favour of murdering anyone.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
She was liberated from a Nazi labor camp by my grandfather who was a Sergeant in 1st Infantry Division and stormed Normandy
Very interesting. Also very interesting that the parallels escape you entirely.
The aggressor in this conflict is, given the history you claim is relevant, the Arabs. The Arabs attacked in the same way that Nazi Germany attacked. Thankfully for those of us in Europe, and for your grandmother, and through her, you, the likes of you were not around at the time.
You see, if we were to take your stand, the European defeat of Germany in WWII was utterly immoral and should never have happened. We stopped German aggression with violence. The same way that Israel is trying to stop Arab aggression with violence. When we won we occupied Germany, in the same way that Israel, after successfully defending herself occupied Arab territory.
What is the difference? Germans stopped fighting after losing the war. Even after being occupied. Millions of Germans were thrown out of their homes in what you now call Poland. More than one million Germans died marching from Poland to Germany. After the war had ended. Do you see Germans firing rockets at Warsaw? Did/Do you see German suicide bombers in London? How many Japanese attacks have there been on Los Angeles since the US occupied them?
It was a lot easier for the allied fighting against the German and Japanese aggression. They fought a rational and thinking enemy, one that understood when it had lost. One that could be reasoned with. Israel should be so lucky.
Have a look at this graph of rocket attacks. You'll notice the nearly complete absence of attacks during the six months of the ceasefire. The handful of rockets that were fired were presumably not from Hamas which, contrary to what you posted, appear to have observed the ceasefire as agreed.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
>Imagine how this conflict would go if the Palestinian's weren't so cowardly and instead used non-violent protests. You know, like Gandhi.
Well it doesn't. Britain was not interested in annexing Indian lands. That's why Ghandi's methods worked. Israel would be more than happy if Palestinian protests limited themselves to petitions and peaceful sit-ins while they build their N-th settlement on Palestinian land.
interesting...Israel started the offensive near the end of December. Go Figure., That's after they started shooting rockets again.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Israel does not need your permission to exist.
Governments must step-in and give incentives to Inter-Faith marriages between Jews and Arabs.
I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
I believe I speak for the entire virtual community when I say: get a life!
I've never seen so many people so upset over propaganda being put out by a terrorist group. If you spent just a few minutes studying the information in any detail you would have noticed the same children being handled by different "parents", fake injuries and simply impossible casualty counts and injuries. One recent example that comes to mind is when the UNRWA (which admitted to employing Hamas members in the past) claimed that Israel shot its truck drivers but didn't actually know where the incident too place nor could they explain how tank shells that would normally blow up human bodies would somehow make tiny sniper holes in the bodies of these people.
Face the fact: they were shot by Hamas. Israel has no interest in harming civilians, it adds to international pressure against them. Hamas has all the interest in the world in harming civilians: it increases their support and hurts Israel. Also, this isn't the first time that a terrorist group has manipulated the media in this way: http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/
Wolverines!
some context.. in the last decade...5 million dead in the congo. yes, 5 million. 45,000 month death rate even just months ago, who knows what it is now. rape continues on an epic scale. dirty secret is our tech uses minerals from this area. fraction of bile spewed at parties in the congo vs israel? .0000001%
32,000 dead kurdish civilians over the last decade by the turkish army while they occupy kurdish land like the iranians and iraqis.
what happens? turkey considered for EU membership.
sudan? still in a total hell hole.
and on and on...
somethings warped with the international community, their "concern" for civilians really doesn't have any substance to it.
I've seen similar situation played out back in junior high. Long time back, but it's pretty much along the same lines.
Imagine some big kid sitting at his desk towards the front of the room. Relative newcomer to the area, and not exactly well liked. Now imagine that week after week, some other guys at the back of the room are taunting him and shooting spit balls at the back of his neck. Then spouting off like typical punks and giggling and saying more shit. Guess what? Eventually the big oaf in the front desk gets tired of this shit, gets up from the desk, walks up to the one responsible for most of the spitballs, and punches him in the face so hard knocking his ass from the chair. And if he's pissed enough, he might start curb-stomping. Not saying it's the right way, but is he justified in his action?
Now replace the spit-balls with rockets, and the oaf's big fists with an effective mechanized army with tanks and an airforce. Well, that's more or less the way I'm seeing the Gaza situation.
If you don't want civilian areas getting bombed, stop the shits that are firing the rockets from them. If you don't, don't be suprised if you're looking complicit in the act when the likely retribution finally comes.
I remember reading about the jewish Bielski partisans in Belarus that were being driven into the forest and attacked viciously due to the cause of Nazis war on terror (or massacre, depending on how you look at it, as how you look at the present situation here), and how they defended themselves with whatever little weapons they managed to smuggle in and fight the Nazi army..
It's a same to see history repeating itself with Zionism's "war on terror".
Middle East + Asteroid Strike = World Fucking Peace
LOL! Or maybe Ceiling Cat can hork up a mighty furball of doom.
SRSLY, what is there to debate? It's wall to wall fuckheads. I guess some folks side with one set of fuckheads or another.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
You know, I love how people talk about the situation in Israel as if it were about two equal parties, equally responsible for the situation. That is not the case. On the one hand you have a legitimate state doing what it must to protect its people. On the other, you have a huge mafia of terrorists whose favorite pastimes are blowing themselves up in cafes and shooting rockets from school rooftops toward people's homes. Unfortunately, the terrorists have turned propaganda and the act of generating horrible PR for Israel into an art form. They launch rockets from schools and dense neighborhoods because they know two things. First, Israel won't shoot back because of the risk of hitting innocents, so the terrorists are safe. Second, if Israel does shoot back, innocents may get hit and the terrorists can show the whole world how Israel is violent. Everyone knows this but still blames Israel. True, many of the people living in Gaza are innocent and want no part of this terrorism. They cannot speak or help the authorities because they know they will be killed. They're up shit creek without a paddle. So they sit back silently in fear of their lives. And true also that in rooting out the terrorists, Israel sometimes hits an innocent bystander. So Israel is between a rock and a hard place. What do you suggest, pulling out of Gaza, allowing the terrorists time to regroup and rearm? Leaving them alone and watching the rockets continue to rain down? Israel is extremely careful to avoid killing innocent bystanders, even when it means putting their own soldiers at higher risk. Contrast this with the terrorists, whose goal in life is to kill innocent bystanders. If Israel succeeds in rooting out the terrorists, life will be much better for the innocent people living in Gaza. Remember, they are terrorized at least as much by the terrorists as are the people in Israel whose homes are in the direct line of rocket fire.
I'd rather forfeit you sympathy and live. thanks.
Israel.
Heh - that's a good point. My favorite of all of yours (not being sarcastic). But they would do so through judicial process, not by dropping bombs on him from faceless airplanes that are so large they kill innocent people at a greater rate than the serial killer himself. I'm also against the death penalty (in favor of legalized personal honor killings; you kill my wife, I get to kill you. Nobody else deserves that honor.)
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
So which terrorist are you talking about anyway? Everyone in Gaza?
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
It's funny how denying the holocaust will get you put in prison in so-called democratic states that support free speech (you'd have to be an idiot to deny the holocaust, but I defend your right to be an idiot), but that denying that any theft happened with the Palestinian people allows YOU to tell ME that I'm not seeing the parallel here. There is a definite parallel: this time around, the jews are the nazis, and the palestinians are the jews. I guess turnabout is fair play.
I'm glad to have known two good people on both sides of the fight to gain some true perspective in things.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
This all started because there were Jewish colonies supposedly under the protection of the British that were constantly attacked by Arabs so the Jewish had to make their own militia and focus on defense. Holocost survivors started moving in and the Jews as a whole wanted independence from the British. They starting fighting the British and the British was arresting thousands. The Brits decided they wanted out and let the UN decide what to do.
The UN divided Palestine into Jewish and Arab sections with the UN in control of Jeruselum. The Arabs said heck no and went to war with the new Jewish state. Both sides were pretty well armed. Blah blah they fight and eventually lines were formed that became borders. The Arab world gets pissed and kicks out all Jews.. most migrate to the new country Israel. Pretty much the whole world was treating them like Crap (except Europe) and the US who was like.. hey, you guys want to be friends? We like friends. At this time Israel was being supplied weapons by France and Czech (bought them). Arab nations continued to harass Israel and one day Israel was like, we're tired of this and bombed the hell out of their enemy and pretty much destroying their militaries. They took Jerusalem and finally had control of the city. The US hadn't supplied them with any weapons yet. So now Israel was in control of the City the UN was originally supposed to be in control of. More fighting blah blah blah nobody can defeat Israel so they begin terrorizing, assassinating, and kidnapping Jews. One day some important british guy was assassinated (in Israel i think) and they had an excuse to invade Lebanon.. but it turned out that wasn't who assassinated the guy. That battle pretty much started Modern day hatred of Israel. Israel had been "colonizing" Jerusalem since taking it and a lot of friction occurred because of it. During this time Israel decided it wanted to depend on outside countries less and was developing and using their own weapons and tanks (which are considered some of the best tanks in the world). Bam, Gulf War happens.. Iraq invades Kuwait. The USA and UK go to war and bring a ton of friends.. they push Iraq out of Kuwait. Iraq retaliates by launching Scuds into Israel (wtf?) and Saudi. Anyways, Lebanon is terrorizing and shelling Israel so Israel starts putting up a HUGE wall and clearing out the border. People living there are displaced and nobody is happy. The hezbollah are shelling and shelling and shelling and Israel is doing very little back. So little in-face that the people of Israel started complaining... a LOT. This is pretty much present day.
Israel is so well armed today because they HAD to be to SURVIVE. If they weren't constantly attacked they probably wouldn't have more than modest army that relied on imported weapons. But they don't.. they have a trained army and their own weapons R&D. You can guess why
Also i wanted to say this about US weapons.. TONES of countries have US weapons (the ones that are friendly to the US anyways). They aren't exactly top of the line though.. usually weapon platforms a decade (or many) behind current US weapons tech. Why would they arm anyone with weapons that could possibly be used against the US?
Well I'm glad that you accept you were wrong in your last statement about six months of rocket attacks, even if you do disingenuously use it as an opportunity to pretend you aren't aware of the circumstances of the renewed violence. This has been discussed thoroughly above. December was the long agreed end of the ceasefire. Hamas asked to extend the ceasefire with their condition being that supplies of food etc. could be brought into Gaza. Unfortunately the Israelis had blockaded Gaza during the ceasefire, preventing supplies from getting through and they also, a few weeks before the end of the ceasefire period, killed six members of Hamas.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
Explain how what happened to his family home was NOT theft, please?
Until then, I'm proud to have known two people on both sides of the conflict, my grandmother from the labor camp, and my Palestinian friend who shared my dormroom hall in 1992. Out of the two of them and you, you are the one I don't believe when you say, "No theft occurred."
So there's the parallel. It's okay to deny this theft, but it's not okay to deny the holocaust. Two idiotic viewpoints I would never agree with.
You asked for parralels? The parallel is simple: The jews became the new nazis (to a much lesser degree, *obviously*, but possibly to a greater number of total-human-years-of-suffering since this has gone on for a long, long time), and palestinians became the new jews. It's a shitty metaphor but that's kind of what's happening here. They took they're land, and now they exterminate them -- just very slowly so it's not very "holocausty".
Note that my disdain of the situation is not a zero sum game. I'd just a soon put a bullet in the hole of the head of a terrorist with my own 2 hands if given the chance. But that's not really a judgment you can make from a military aircraft dropping bombs from the sky...
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
The biggest difference between what happens now in "Gaza with the Palestinian people" and the "Second War Holocaust" are the numbers, but the vast majority of issues remain:
Suppression of privacy.
Robbering of properties.
Killing childrens and disarmed population.
Suppressing the media access to the local, hiding the facts (Not fear implies in not hidding).
Another big difference between the two holocausts here are that now the oppression continues for generations past and probably many generations ahead.
The Israely state, to protect his people against a future holocaust, created the modern holocaust.
The Israely state born with a huge robbering of the Palestinian properties. The only way Israel finds until now to justify its existence is the violence against the Palestinian people. The best way to solve this problem is paying for the robbery already done and leaving in peace with the Palestinian people.
Deliberately targetting schools is one. Disproportionnate use of force is another.
And before says "rocket!" one more time, here's the thing:
Amount of crappy explosive (gun powder) in rocket: 10kg
Amount of high explosive in Israeli bomb: 1 tonne
People like you who act like this didn't happen.
Please try to understand the difference between what happened before the war of 1948, where nobody stole anything, and what happened to the people who attacked Israel. If you don't understand the difference, please ask an adult to explain.
But your analogy's not appropriate for the case at hand.
Consider this one: if I was locked up in a ghetto, unable to get a job because the economy is devastated by a blockade, that several members of my family had been killed by the enemy, and I was borderline starving because the enemy was stopping humanitarian aid,
would I be lobbing rockets?
You bet I would. And then some more.
By that logic, the first Gulf War would have been the fault of the US/coalition rather than Sadaam Hussein, as there were far more Iraqi than coalition casualties.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
The last paragraph of the book's sale blip says it all.
Therefore this book should be a must for all those interested in the creation of a harmonious one-world. It is also the book for every thinking Muslim.
This is my sig.
If you are reading this, please take a minute or two of silence to mourn the dead.
My Blog | Badsh
If it went on for decades, with the Iraqi army having only mortars and homemade explosives, at that point it would be. Thankfully Bush senior knew when to stop and get out.
"I did not lie about you."
You made a statement that is demonstrably false.
That is lying, no matter how you equivocate to pretend you weren't caught lying.
"I look forward to continuing to post facts in this discussion without your responses of calling people "fucking morons" and stating "you fail" when you see something that is wrong."
FYP
And if the epithet fits, sorry, but it fits. Don't blame me becuase you're a lying moron.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
"You're behaving like a classic troll, you dismiss all facts other people bring to the table due to lack of evidence, then you do the exact same thing you claim your opponents are doing, which is claim fact without any citation at all."
That is a lie.
"You claim you're unbiased while clearly only supporting the israeli side of the argument, how ludicrous is that. "
You're lying, apparently too stupid to read the entire thread.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
"You seem to be unaware what the meaning of the word lie means so I thought I should take the opportunity to educate you. For something to be a lie intent is required, a false statement without intent to deceive is simply a false statement."
Funny how in all that spew you totally forgot to apologize for "being factually incorrect" and trolling me because you weren't diligent enough to read the whole thread.
Since you also appear to be stupid, I'll fix your ignorance about lying too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie
"Fabrication
A fabrication is a lie told when someone submits a statement as truth, without knowing for certain whether or not it actually is true. Although the statement may be possible or plausible, it is not based on fact. Rather, it is something made up, or it is a misrepresentation of the truth. Examples of fabrication: "The dog ate my homework", or "I did unplug the iron".
OOPS! You were wrong again (I'll be charitable and not point out that you were also lying again).
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie
1 b: an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker
OOPS! you're STILL wrong. NO INTENT REQUIRED.
So, you lied. The fact that you posted what you THINK a lie is changes nothing because you were ignorant about that too.
Of course, you'll NEVER admit it, you're a cowardly piece of shit, and we both know you're not man enough to own up.
Go ahead, run and hide, you're a bitch and that what lying bitches do.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
"You're hilarious 10/10 troll points."
Ah the old "I have been proven wrong so I'll call him a troll" play. How obvious and expected.
So what if I am a troll, you STILL lied, you were STILL wrong and YOU"LL STILL "NEVER admit it, you're a cowardly piece of shit, and we both know you're not man enough to own up."
See, when your response to being proven a liar and shown to be wrong is to call someone a "troll", it's pretty clear you know you got STFU.
You're a bitch, and you know it.
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...
You;re aware you were definitively proven to be a lair, and have also proven every derogatory remark I've made true right.
And save the childish "you're iunsultign yourself' garbage, it's transparent.
I won, you LIED, and the best you can do now is troll me with stupid shit like "You're aware you're insulting yourself right? This is so much fun, I should probably go and get some popcorn."
Yeah yeah "I'm rubber you're glue" is next from you I'm sure.
How about instead you just STOP LYING.?
"The government grants you rights, not the other way around."-- beav007. Yes, these people really exist...