I think many people know who he is, at least inside the game industry. It would be intresting to see how many people outside the industry knows who these people are.
Well, I suppose it depends, really. I mean, I wouldn't think that coding a big-ass relational, multidimensional database would be 'easy' or anything, but for something like Word For Windows can't be that difficult (other then some of the zanier things like AutoSummarize). Hell, WordPad was nothing more then the MFC libs thrown together with just a little bit of glue.
As far as game programmers go Doing what John Carmak Or Corrine Yu do would be amazingly difficult for the average hacker. But then again, I can't imagine that something like Starcraft would really be that difficult ether...
That said, I don't think its unreasonable to make assumptions about what other people do, as programmers. We all have brains, and can guess what programmers do. And, all in all, I would have to say that game programming probably does take more skill then BizApp programming. That said, I do think there's a bit more to it then "figuring out financial formulas" or whatever R.I.P said.
Yes, I was aware of the Fact that Windows keeps some of DOS "around" somewhere to be used for DOS apps to start, etc. But my main point, was that windows itself was not running on top of DOS. Really, kind of 'beside' it or something... I don't know.
The part about the drivers is true though. It's a little muddled, but Saying that windows is a shell for dos is patently wrong.
Windows boots from DOS. Windows does not Use the functions of the MSDOS operating system while it is running. Load a large file into edit.com in pure dos mode, then try it in a windows DOS box. The DOS box is much faster, because of the 32bit DMA-enabled IO drivers.
Windows is not DOS, Windows does not run 'on top' of DOS.
Since you've never dug into the internals of Win9x (or, at least, this piece of the internals), I'm going to give you step by step directions on how to see that Win9x is still just a shell over the top of DOS, just like Win3.1.
Yeh, your right, what was I thinking. After All, I've never done any pure assembly coding for windows only pure-DOS! What would I know. The only programming I've done for windows has been in C++!
I'm going to give you step by step directions on how to see that Win9x is still just a shell over the top of DOS, just like Win3.1....
WTF? You think I don't know what msdos.sys's BOOTGUI option does? Do you think I'm a moron? Let me ask you, what the hell does that have to do with whether or not windows is a shell for DOS, and why the hell wouldn't I just hit the F8 key at boot? BeOS starts in MacOS, NT can run in Linux, and Linux can run in NT.
Lets play another game. Find the file called Loadlin.com on your distro's CD. I know Red Hat has it. Copy the Linux kernel to a DOS partition and type "Loadlin.com Linux.krl or" whatever. What happens? Why? Linux boots from DOS!!!! I guess that means Linux is just a shell for dos! I'm sure Linus will be surprised.
Oh? What's that? You've never heard of loadlin.com? I guess you must not know very much about Linux then.
May I suggest some proof? Take win '95 (original, not OEM, Rev 2.5.3.56.3 etc...). Shut down. Type:
mode co 80 [enter]
and tell me that isn't a DOS prompt... Looks a hell of a lot like win 3.1 to me with a "nice" little graphic displayed at the end to confuse people.
What the hell does that prove? Do you know anything about Operating System Design? With Enlightenment, Linux Can "Look" like MacOS, does that mean it is MacOS? Clearly not.
Windows dosn't run "on" DOS, it starts from dos, and then unloads DOS from the system (keeping environment for other DOS apps to use in). Thats like saying that NT is part of Linux beacuse the NT bootloader can start Linux.
As for not being based on legacy code, I have a hard time believing that MS would do a clean rewrite of all the DOS bits that were included into win95.
Hrm, I'm not sure, I do think they would have had to have rewriten quite a bit though to get it to work in windows... For instance, int21 (hex) can be used to write to graphical DOS boxes, and uses Windows' 32bit file access mode (with cashing, DMA, etc). But who knows exactly how it works?
Get an NES cleaning kit. You can still get them ant FuncoLand. I got one, and after just one cleaning I could usualy get games to run in just two or three tries!! it's fantastic! If you've got an NES you should serously get one:)
Members of the Cult of the Dead Cow, opon hearing the latter part of this outburst, are reputedly planning an IPO next week, proceeds of which will be used to sue the newly-merged MPAA-CO$ organization into oblivion on grounds of trademark dilution.
Wow, the idea of starting a company just to sue someone. Ingenious! Kinda like Caldera... (Well, the Caldera that makes OpenDos, not OpenLinux. They are seperate companies.(but have the same CEO))
Cliffords comments on the other hand outline simply that Linux and *nix have much stricter file permissions and unless your log in as root, your pretty safe.
I log in as delmoi. I get a virus. All my stuff is now gone.
Why couldn't someone simply write a userspace TTY program that interfaces with the TTY underneth it? So, to the user, it dosn't apear that there is anything wrong, when infact all the keystrokes go to the program?
hrm... Generaly Republicans are more intrested in economic stablity, you'll note that in 1981, the economy was mostly the result of Jimmy Carter.
But, anyway, I think the decline of the arcade is in that it just can't keep up anymore with the home systems, as well as the fact that near-sighted arcade game makers made it imposible to get more then a few minutes at the system without plunking down more quarters (at the behest of the arcade operators) Thereby taking away the 'inexspensiveness' of the game.
From the article: My first exposure to modern console gaming was in 1989 when I first played Revenge of Shinobi on the Genesis, followed by hours of time lost to Tetris, and Golgo 13 for the NES.
One of the interesting, and really, sad things about old video games is how much they suck. A friend of mine had a Golgo13 NES game, and I played it for the first time a few months ago when he finally got his NES hooked up again. That game sucks, and sucks bad. (btw, has anyone here seen the Anime it's from? I thought it was pretty bad to, actually)
I think the most fun old games are the ones that didn't try and 'push' the system to far. By that I mean, games that didn't try to produce 'amazing' graphics, because by default those graphic will appear to suck to future generations. When you compare a game like "super Mario bros. 3" for the NES, to a game like "Batman 3" or something, witch was supposed to have lush graphics at the time, looks like crap.
Not that this has anything to do with anything, but...
I'm sorry, what does this post have to do with anything? You cite a bunch of commonly known facts to back up your argument, but, you don't have an argument.
Yes, games used to be made by one person, now there made by lots (although, actualy the number of people who work full time on the game is usualy less then 10). Movies used to be cheap, now there not. But what does it mean?
Um, there's not such thing as an 8-bit x86 CPU, the first the 8086 was a 16-bit word machine, on a 16 bit bus, and the second, the 8088 was a compatable 16-bit word macine on an 8-bit bus. If you've ever done any DOS assembly programing, as I have, you would know that DOS is entirely a 16 bit system.
90% of desktop computers around today run on a dos kernel of some sort (this includes windows 95).
Windows 9x does not run on a dos Kernel, the main system controler is vmm32.vxd, I think and it is not based on anyway on Legacy dos code. NT has its own Kernel as well. Just being DOS compatable does not make an operating system a version of DOS. Infact Linux is probably more DOS compatable (with DOSemu) then NT.
Saying that windows95/98 runs on DOS is ether pure FUD or pure ignorance
Normaly, a sig is on every post. If you click the little link that says 'user info' you will see that it is not on every post. Therefor it is not a sig.
The only conclusion I can draw here, is that you are an idiot
Well, yes it is posible to make a bit for bit copy of a dvd, in theory. But theory dosn't really matter. What DVDCCA is worried about is people at there home computers, copying away like we do with CDs. some people can make bit-for-bit copies, but you cant, unless you've got some custom hardware that I don't know about.
"Subtle Mind control? why do html buttons say submit?",
The size of DeCSS for windows, with GUI and everything is exactly 32,768. It came with some DLLs, but it looks like my copy of windows already has the functionalty. The sorce itself is small enough to fit on a Teeshirt..
Slashdot Mirror
I think many people know who he is, at least inside the game industry. It would be intresting to see how many people outside the industry knows who these people are.
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
Well, I suppose it depends, really. I mean, I wouldn't think that coding a big-ass relational, multidimensional database would be 'easy' or anything, but for something like Word For Windows can't be that difficult (other then some of the zanier things like AutoSummarize). Hell, WordPad was nothing more then the MFC libs thrown together with just a little bit of glue.
As far as game programmers go Doing what John Carmak Or Corrine Yu do would be amazingly difficult for the average hacker. But then again, I can't imagine that something like Starcraft would really be that difficult ether...
That said, I don't think its unreasonable to make assumptions about what other people do, as programmers. We all have brains, and can guess what programmers do. And, all in all, I would have to say that game programming probably does take more skill then BizApp programming. That said, I do think there's a bit more to it then "figuring out financial formulas" or whatever R.I.P said.
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
Yes, I was aware of the Fact that Windows keeps some of DOS "around" somewhere to be used for DOS apps to start, etc. But my main point, was that windows itself was not running on top of DOS. Really, kind of 'beside' it or something... I don't know.
The part about the drivers is true though. It's a little muddled, but Saying that windows is a shell for dos is patently wrong.
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
Windows boots from DOS. Windows does not Use the functions of the MSDOS operating system while it is running. Load a large file into edit.com in pure dos mode, then try it in a windows DOS box. The DOS box is much faster, because of the 32bit DMA-enabled IO drivers.
Windows is not DOS, Windows does not run 'on top' of DOS.
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
Since you've never dug into the internals of Win9x (or, at least, this piece of the internals), I'm going to give you step by step directions on how to see that Win9x is still just a shell over the top of DOS, just like Win3.1.
Yeh, your right, what was I thinking. After All, I've never done any pure assembly coding for windows only pure-DOS! What would I know. The only programming I've done for windows has been in C++!
I'm going to give you step by step directions on how to see that Win9x is still just a shell over the top of DOS, just like Win3.1....
WTF? You think I don't know what msdos.sys's BOOTGUI option does? Do you think I'm a moron? Let me ask you, what the hell does that have to do with whether or not windows is a shell for DOS, and why the hell wouldn't I just hit the F8 key at boot? BeOS starts in MacOS, NT can run in Linux, and Linux can run in NT.
Lets play another game. Find the file called Loadlin.com on your distro's CD. I know Red Hat has it. Copy the Linux kernel to a DOS partition and type "Loadlin.com Linux.krl or" whatever. What happens? Why? Linux boots from DOS!!!! I guess that means Linux is just a shell for dos! I'm sure Linus will be surprised.
Oh? What's that? You've never heard of loadlin.com? I guess you must not know very much about Linux then.
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
May I suggest some proof? Take win '95 (original, not OEM, Rev 2.5.3.56.3 etc...). Shut down. Type:
mode co 80 [enter]
and tell me that isn't a DOS prompt... Looks a hell of a lot like win 3.1 to me with a "nice" little graphic displayed at the end to confuse people.
What the hell does that prove? Do you know anything about Operating System Design? With Enlightenment, Linux Can "Look" like MacOS, does that mean it is MacOS? Clearly not.
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
Windows dosn't run "on" DOS, it starts from dos, and then unloads DOS from the system (keeping environment for other DOS apps to use in). Thats like saying that NT is part of Linux beacuse the NT bootloader can start Linux.
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
As for not being based on legacy code, I have a hard time believing that MS would do a clean rewrite of all the DOS bits that were included into win95.
Hrm, I'm not sure, I do think they would have had to have rewriten quite a bit though to get it to work in windows... For instance, int21 (hex) can be used to write to graphical DOS boxes, and uses Windows' 32bit file access mode (with cashing, DMA, etc). But who knows exactly how it works?
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
Get an NES cleaning kit. You can still get them ant FuncoLand. I got one, and after just one cleaning I could usualy get games to run in just two or three tries!! it's fantastic! If you've got an NES you should serously get one :)
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
Members of the Cult of the Dead Cow, opon hearing the latter part of this outburst, are reputedly planning an IPO next week, proceeds of which will be used to sue the newly-merged MPAA-CO$ organization into oblivion on grounds of trademark dilution.
Wow, the idea of starting a company just to sue someone. Ingenious! Kinda like Caldera... (Well, the Caldera that makes OpenDos, not OpenLinux. They are seperate companies.(but have the same CEO))
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
CIH came from taiwan...
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
Cliffords comments on the other hand outline simply that Linux and *nix have much stricter file permissions and unless your log in as root, your pretty safe.
I log in as delmoi. I get a virus. All my stuff is now gone.
I would hardly call that safe
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
Why couldn't someone simply write a userspace TTY program that interfaces with the TTY underneth it? So, to the user, it dosn't apear that there is anything wrong, when infact all the keystrokes go to the program?
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
Well, he may be refering to the late nights spent by programers, or posibly the lower pay even. In any event, I'm going to be late for class...
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
hrm... Generaly Republicans are more intrested in economic stablity, you'll note that in 1981, the economy was mostly the result of Jimmy Carter.
But, anyway, I think the decline of the arcade is in that it just can't keep up anymore with the home systems, as well as the fact that near-sighted arcade game makers made it imposible to get more then a few minutes at the system without plunking down more quarters (at the behest of the arcade operators) Thereby taking away the 'inexspensiveness' of the game.
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
From the article :
My first exposure to modern console gaming was in 1989 when I first played Revenge of Shinobi on the Genesis, followed by hours of time lost to Tetris, and Golgo 13 for the NES.
One of the interesting, and really, sad things about old video games is how much they suck. A friend of mine had a Golgo13 NES game, and I played it for the first time a few months ago when he finally got his NES hooked up again. That game sucks, and sucks bad. (btw, has anyone here seen the Anime it's from? I thought it was pretty bad to, actually)
I think the most fun old games are the ones that didn't try and 'push' the system to far. By that I mean, games that didn't try to produce 'amazing' graphics, because by default those graphic will appear to suck to future generations. When you compare a game like "super Mario bros. 3" for the NES, to a game like "Batman 3" or something, witch was supposed to have lush graphics at the time, looks like crap.
Not that this has anything to do with anything, but...
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
I'm sorry, what does this post have to do with anything? You cite a bunch of commonly known facts to back up your argument, but, you don't have an argument.
Yes, games used to be made by one person, now there made by lots (although, actualy the number of people who work full time on the game is usualy less then 10). Movies used to be cheap, now there not. But what does it mean?
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
Um, there's not such thing as an 8-bit x86 CPU, the first the 8086 was a 16-bit word machine, on a 16 bit bus, and the second, the 8088 was a compatable 16-bit word macine on an 8-bit bus. If you've ever done any DOS assembly programing, as I have, you would know that DOS is entirely a 16 bit system.
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
90% of desktop computers around today run on a dos kernel of some sort (this includes windows 95).
Windows 9x does not run on a dos Kernel, the main system controler is vmm32.vxd, I think and it is not based on anyway on Legacy dos code. NT has its own Kernel as well. Just being DOS compatable does not make an operating system a version of DOS. Infact Linux is probably more DOS compatable (with DOSemu) then NT.
Saying that windows95/98 runs on DOS is ether pure FUD or pure ignorance
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
Normaly, a sig is on every post. If you click the little link that says 'user info' you will see that it is not on every post. Therefor it is not a sig.
The only conclusion I can draw here, is that you are an idiot
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
The MFC maybe?
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
You were going to buy frontpage 98? That program is worse then hard coding HTML, even for someone who's never used HTML before.
Besides, its dumbasses running around with braindead editors that made the web so ugly..
"Suble Mind control? why do html buttons say submit?",
Well, yes it is posible to make a bit for bit copy of a dvd, in theory. But theory dosn't really matter. What DVDCCA is worried about is people at there home computers, copying away like we do with CDs. some people can make bit-for-bit copies, but you cant, unless you've got some custom hardware that I don't know about.
"Subtle Mind control? why do html buttons say submit?",
The size of DeCSS for windows, with GUI and everything is exactly 32,768. It came with some DLLs, but it looks like my copy of windows already has the functionalty. The sorce itself is small enough to fit on a Teeshirt..
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
What about the pending legislation that alters the UCC regulations to make EULAs and shrinkwrap licenses enforceable?
But, its only pending, and will probably (hopefully ???) not get passed. But intill then, it is meaning less.
"Subtle Mind control? why do html buttons say submit?",