Umm. duhh... That is why I said if the pictures where from a U2 it would be more likely! Actually a lot of photo recon pictures are taken at an oblique angle. If for no other reason then you don't have to fly over the target. Of course you can often get a lot more data from the side.
Wow don't people every read the entire post! What I said was that it was impossible to read tail numbers from an early spy sat! I then said that it was possibile from a U2 airplane! Good FREAKING heavens READ PEOPLE!
Do you have a source because what you are saying is physically impossible? Tail numbers are on the vertical stabilizer. You can only read them from the side not from the top. Think about the slant range involved and do the math. We are talking about 1950s/ tech so think solid lenses and film with not digital image processing.
Now if the pictures where from a U2 or if they put the numbers on the wing, that is a bit more reasonable but not from an early spy satellite.
Yea whatever... you have decided in your mind that random ballot is a requirement and any objection is not valid. Sorry but I don't buy your logic that randomization which will lead to confusion is a requirement. It is an interesting idea I will give you that but I think it would lead to more unintended votes than the minor bias of being near the top. The bias that is introduced by being near the top only effect selections where the selector has no strong preference is is making a selection in ignorance. In those cases randomization can actually cause the selector more harm than an ordered list. A none political example would be the list of browsers that the EU required. If you completely randomize the list an uneducated person could pick some highly incompatible, insecure, and buggy browser because it happens to be at the top of the list. Where as a list ordered by popularity would group IE, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, and Opera near the top. All of which are good choices. Now in politics since it will be based on the majority that randomization will have little positive effect. The Majority will still vote for the two prime candidates. The only effect may be to cause a lot of miss cast votes to happen and trow the election from one of the main candidates to the other. So no I feel that the introduced error will be greater than any decrease in order bias.
A timeout like a key dedbounce will work. Also remember that when you actually cast a vote you pick the candidate and then hit next. Picking the wrong candidate isn't that big of a deal since you can change it before you hit the next button.
It should be fixed. Is it that terrible an error? I don't think so because it is so noticeable. Also the other errors that must happen for it to have any effect is HUGE. For the wrong vote to be cast these are the errors that must happen. 1. You must hold down the button too long on the language selection. 2. You must then NOT pick a candidate or decide that the computer knows best and leave the miss selection. 3. You must not check the paper ballot that it prints with your actual vote.
It really should be fixed. That is not in doubt. Is it that big of an error? Only because it is causing people to distrust the system. It is so easy for the voter to catch and it is showing up in the early voting so hopefully everybody will double check their ballot. Which they should do because they may have made a mistake and hit the wrong person even without this glitch!
And what about problem that will cause with sending out ballots ahead of time?
And if a voter is influenced by whose name is first then frankly their is little hope for them at all. Maybe we should make the first selection always Iam Tostupidtovote. Anyone that picks that you just toss their ballot.
Yep I do because I have seen this type of error a 100 times. First of all this error isn't even really an error. It is a none optimal UI design. Odds are that in testing no one held down their finger too long or even better they did and noticed it. Some one in testing made the error but they knew they had caused it! What is also likely is they would say that it was no big deal. You see when you select who you meant to vote for it removes the check. Think about this error in a rational way and not in the paranoid fantasy that people seem to live in today. You hit English and the next screen pops up and your finger is on a selection and it also gets checked. You would go... "well I held down my finger too long woops" and then you would check the correct box and get on with your life! And actually this system has a lot of safeguards built in. You can go back and review your votes at anytime to double check that the ballot is right. At that point it then prints your ballot so you can check that. You then cast your vote! This system has a paper trail as well as electronic which everybody on Slashdot has been yelling for. And yes I have made this same type of error in programing myself and it got through testing. In a DOS program we set the command to copy from floppy to CTRL FF and the command to copy to a floppy to CTRL FT. It never occurred to use that someone would think that they had to hit all three keys at once! We thought that everybody knew that you used CTRL like a shift key and would tap a key at a time. All of a sudden we where getting reports of people edits being deleted. I mean hours of and hours of work gone. We couldn't figure how it was happening. We say a user tryiing to hit all three keys at once and then it dawned on us what was happening. They where holding down the F long enough that autorepeat was causing them to hit CTRL FF when they meant to hit CTRL FT! And then they failed to read the overwrite warning.... Bingo. Almost the same type of error and yes it got past a lot of in house testing and most people never ran into it! So this is not a blatant UI bug at all. It only seems that way to you now that I pointed it out. AKA hindsite is 20/20.
I would say it is of very little importance. It doesn't vote for you unless you accept the default that is selected. Now if it then flipped automatically to the next screen then yes that would be a major problem. I do not think that it is too much to expect that people will read actual ballot. Not a good thing but not a conspiracy or the nightmare that people are making it out to be.
Interesting idea but I wouldn't say that is a design flaw.
Paper ballots are not randomized and in my state they send out copies of the ballot so you can study them and see who is running.
Suppose I did study the ballot sent to me and then I am presented with one that doesn't match? I am allowed to take may study ballot in with me and for some people a randomized ballot could be more confusing. A non-randomized ballot is no worse then a traditional paper ballot.
Well if you read the link and not Slashdot's terrible, slanted, and sensationalist summary you will see that wasn't said. The problem is a simple UI issue. From reading the article it seems that they implemented the select language touch as select on touch begin and not select on touch end. So if you hold your finger down long enough the next screen pops up and your finger will be on one of the candidates. It is a simple UI issue combined with people being on auto pilot. Honestly not a huge issue because you should really check it before you hit next anyway but it should be fixed.
Not evil or a conspiracy or anything but a UI error that really isn't that terrible if people bother to read. And yes it is so the type of UI problem that I would expect in any program like this.
Actually if one reads the link you will see that Slashdot is at it again. They are touch screen systems. If you keep your finger on them to long you end up with double picking. This is a coding error. They just need to change the select from touch begin to touch end and maybe add a next button to take you to the next screen. In other words it is a UI error and not some great evil conspiracy.
Okay Slashdot please stop using the FOX News and the Daily Workers guide to ethical journalism when writing the summaries!
Hey I am a big fan of FOSS but something like an office suite isn't easy. The thing is I am not sure that Office or even OpenOffice is such a good solution for most people. Yes they are both very powerful and you can do anything with them but how many people need that level of power? Take a word processor for example. How many people even use them anymore? Once you get out of college just how often does one need a word processor? I will bet that most people use email for written communication these days. Everybody needs one now and then but really how often? And how many people really know how to use Word? I don't mean just enough to get by but know it inside and out? Then you have spreadsheets with have got to be the single most abused piece of software on the planet. They have almost replaced databases in a lot of places. Not well but they have. The reason is that they are a good way to manage a list of data, not great but good. That leads to people using them when they really shouldn't.
That is why I suggested a FOSS google docs is more important than full office suite. It think Google Docs does 99% of what people need to do.
Actually they failed to produce a any good aircraft after the P-40. Even the P-40 was looked down on as an also ran. I feel rather unfairly. I was mainly speaking of the Engine division which built several of the best piston aircraft engines in history. But they failed to invest in jets until it was too late. They believed that piston engines would always be more fuel efficient and would always be the better choice for long range aircraft. They where wrong and lost the market. Pratt and Whitney on the other had invested early and built Rolls Royce jet engines after the war and put a lot of effort into them.
Okay the make control systems. But that company was a merger of The Curtiss company as in Glen Curtiss and the Wright Engine company an in the Wright Brothers. The company that made the P-40 fighter plane and the Engines that powered a good percentage of US aircraft in WWII including but not limited too the B-17 Flying Fortress, the B-25, and the B-29!. After the war they produced the engine for long range aircraft. Until the Jet came along. They failed to make the leap and are now a relatively small company compared to their main rival. They did survive but I would say that they went from being a major player to being a supplier.
Frankly I am starting to wonder if Microsoft is going to be the next Curtis Wright. In 1954 just about every airliner on the planet used their engines. The president of the company said that they could keep making that one engine until the end of time and people would still be buying them. By 1960 they where no longer a major producer of aircraft engines. Today they make valves for hydraulic systems.
"GM didn't have to pay for the social costs of that, the taxpayer is. But the taxpayer is also paying the price in greater carbon emissions, lower quality of life (at least for the unemployed), and loss of tax revenue, etc. " Why should a company have to pay any social cost? They pay taxes just like everybody else. GM closed the plants because people stopped buying their cars. It is as simple as that. Not only that but just look at the anti GM hate over the Volt. Frankly I am deeply confused what people are complaining about. The Volt was from the start a plug in serial hybrid. Now we find out that it can also be a parallel hybrid when that is the most efficient mode and people get BENT! My goodness that is some great tech people but because it is GM it is somehow evil. I am all for making stuff in the US but even your statement about companies not paying the social cost is enough to make people run to Mexico in a heartbeat.
Yep you are correct in many categories. However I am not endorsing more security or less. I am endorsing intelligent discusion of the subject without insults, exaggerations, lies, or other types of FUD. Someone taking my off had comment as an endorsement and simply replaying with what they thought was a witty comment just ticked me off. I am trying to show both sides of this issue so people can start thinking about the subject instead of just reacting to it.
I completely agree that it merits discusion. I am not even a real supporter of it. I am just pointing out just how stupid the discussion has gotten. There is so much FUD on this subject from both sides that it makes me want to scream. If someone dares to say that some of the security changes may have saved lives people will flat out state you are stupid, a "neocon", or some other insulting term. Not really a healthy way to have a discusion or a good way to balance the benefits to the risks.
Those are not counted as attempted attacks. So your statement is a complete lie. AKA you are using exaggeration and falsehoods because you feel your point is more important than the truth.
What is sad is that I am not really for this mobile body scan crap. If anything we are way to worried that someone will bring a toenail clipper on a plane. I just don't see the threat from that. But their must be some reasonable middle ground where the risks and benefits will balance. However anything that isn't the 100 the truth is harmful and useless. It is in fact propaganda like your statement.
However let's go with your statement as being 100% factual. So people had to put some pocket knives in their luggage and or throw them away and others had to throw away some baby formula. However your number show that those actions prevented at least one terrorist attack on a plane that would have cost several million dollars and somewhere around 100 lives! That is going with your exaggerated and none factual numbers trying to prove that those actions are not helping. Since there can be no faction of a terrorist attack you numbers show at least one. It is all fantasy from start to finish but it a fantasy of your making based on your data.
I have looked at it and it does look interesting. The problem is that Zimbra doesn't really replace exchange unless you pay for the enterprise version.
You are also living with a logical fallacy. How can one judge security measures except by the lack of successful attacks? Why do you lock you car? Have you ever had your car stollen? I bet if you left it unlocked just once that nobody would steal it.
The deterrence value of a security measure is just about un-measurable. However their have been attempted attacks so unlike your tiger and elephant repelling rock there is data to suggest that their is a real threat still. Now as to the trade off between security and liberty that is a different discusion.
"Granted, none of it's a polished, drop in replacement for Google Docs, but that's life." That is not a good answer. So what you are saying is that I am correct in that this need is not being met by the FOSS community. Frankly this is what FOSS is supposed to solve. The there isn't a good open solution for this yet problem.
Try running a browser from 1997 and I am sure it will work just fine in 8MB as well. Chrome =1.71 MB on my Mac OpenOffice well over 400 MB I am sure a lot of that is data but Yes I would put a browser as a much smaller program than an office suite from the same time.
Slashdot Mirror
Umm. duhh... That is why I said if the pictures where from a U2 it would be more likely!
Actually a lot of photo recon pictures are taken at an oblique angle. If for no other reason then you don't have to fly over the target. Of course you can often get a lot more data from the side.
Wow don't people every read the entire post! What I said was that it was impossible to read tail numbers from an early spy sat! I then said that it was possibile from a U2 airplane!
Good FREAKING heavens READ PEOPLE!
Do you have a source because what you are saying is physically impossible?
Tail numbers are on the vertical stabilizer. You can only read them from the side not from the top. Think about the slant range involved and do the math. We are talking about 1950s/ tech so think solid lenses and film with not digital image processing.
Now if the pictures where from a U2 or if they put the numbers on the wing, that is a bit more reasonable but not from an early spy satellite.
Yea whatever... you have decided in your mind that random ballot is a requirement and any objection is not valid. Sorry but I don't buy your logic that randomization which will lead to confusion is a requirement. It is an interesting idea I will give you that but I think it would lead to more unintended votes than the minor bias of being near the top.
The bias that is introduced by being near the top only effect selections where the selector has no strong preference is is making a selection in ignorance.
In those cases randomization can actually cause the selector more harm than an ordered list.
A none political example would be the list of browsers that the EU required. If you completely randomize the list an uneducated person could pick some highly incompatible, insecure, and buggy browser because it happens to be at the top of the list. Where as a list ordered by popularity would group IE, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, and Opera near the top. All of which are good choices.
Now in politics since it will be based on the majority that randomization will have little positive effect.
The Majority will still vote for the two prime candidates. The only effect may be to cause a lot of miss cast votes to happen and trow the election from one of the main candidates to the other.
So no I feel that the introduced error will be greater than any decrease in order bias.
A timeout like a key dedbounce will work. Also remember that when you actually cast a vote you pick the candidate and then hit next. Picking the wrong candidate isn't that big of a deal since you can change it before you hit the next button.
It should be fixed. Is it that terrible an error? I don't think so because it is so noticeable.
Also the other errors that must happen for it to have any effect is HUGE.
For the wrong vote to be cast these are the errors that must happen.
1. You must hold down the button too long on the language selection.
2. You must then NOT pick a candidate or decide that the computer knows best and leave the miss selection.
3. You must not check the paper ballot that it prints with your actual vote.
It really should be fixed. That is not in doubt. Is it that big of an error? Only because it is causing people to distrust the system. It is so easy for the voter to catch and it is showing up in the early voting so hopefully everybody will double check their ballot. Which they should do because they may have made a mistake and hit the wrong person even without this glitch!
And what about problem that will cause with sending out ballots ahead of time?
And if a voter is influenced by whose name is first then frankly their is little hope for them at all.
Maybe we should make the first selection always Iam Tostupidtovote.
Anyone that picks that you just toss their ballot.
Yep I do because I have seen this type of error a 100 times.
First of all this error isn't even really an error. It is a none optimal UI design.
Odds are that in testing no one held down their finger too long or even better they did and noticed it.
Some one in testing made the error but they knew they had caused it! What is also likely is they would say that it was no big deal. You see when you select who you meant to vote for it removes the check.
Think about this error in a rational way and not in the paranoid fantasy that people seem to live in today.
You hit English and the next screen pops up and your finger is on a selection and it also gets checked.
You would go... "well I held down my finger too long woops" and then you would check the correct box and get on with your life!
And actually this system has a lot of safeguards built in. You can go back and review your votes at anytime to double check that the ballot is right. At that point it then prints your ballot so you can check that. You then cast your vote! This system has a paper trail as well as electronic which everybody on Slashdot has been yelling for.
And yes I have made this same type of error in programing myself and it got through testing.
In a DOS program we set the command to copy from floppy to CTRL FF and the command to copy to a floppy to CTRL FT. It never occurred to use that someone would think that they had to hit all three keys at once! We thought that everybody knew that you used CTRL like a shift key and would tap a key at a time.
All of a sudden we where getting reports of people edits being deleted. I mean hours of and hours of work gone.
We couldn't figure how it was happening.
We say a user tryiing to hit all three keys at once and then it dawned on us what was happening.
They where holding down the F long enough that autorepeat was causing them to hit CTRL FF when they meant to hit CTRL FT!
And then they failed to read the overwrite warning....
Bingo.
Almost the same type of error and yes it got past a lot of in house testing and most people never ran into it!
So this is not a blatant UI bug at all. It only seems that way to you now that I pointed it out. AKA hindsite is 20/20.
So take off your tin foil hat.
Actually the solution is easier than those.
Change select on down to select on up. Don't go to the next screen until you lift your finger.
I would say it is of very little importance. It doesn't vote for you unless you accept the default that is selected. Now if it then flipped automatically to the next screen then yes that would be a major problem. I do not think that it is too much to expect that people will read actual ballot.
Not a good thing but not a conspiracy or the nightmare that people are making it out to be.
Interesting idea but I wouldn't say that is a design flaw.
Paper ballots are not randomized and in my state they send out copies of the ballot so you can study them and see who is running.
Suppose I did study the ballot sent to me and then I am presented with one that doesn't match?
I am allowed to take may study ballot in with me and for some people a randomized ballot could be more confusing.
A non-randomized ballot is no worse then a traditional paper ballot.
Well if you read the link and not Slashdot's terrible, slanted, and sensationalist summary you will see that wasn't said.
The problem is a simple UI issue.
From reading the article it seems that they implemented the select language touch as select on touch begin and not select on touch end.
So if you hold your finger down long enough the next screen pops up and your finger will be on one of the candidates.
It is a simple UI issue combined with people being on auto pilot. Honestly not a huge issue because you should really check it before you hit next anyway but it should be fixed.
Not evil or a conspiracy or anything but a UI error that really isn't that terrible if people bother to read. And yes it is so the type of UI problem that I would expect in any program like this.
Actually if one reads the link you will see that Slashdot is at it again.
They are touch screen systems. If you keep your finger on them to long you end up with double picking.
This is a coding error. They just need to change the select from touch begin to touch end and maybe add a next button to take you to the next screen.
In other words it is a UI error and not some great evil conspiracy.
Okay Slashdot please stop using the FOX News and the Daily Workers guide to ethical journalism when writing the summaries!
Hey I am a big fan of FOSS but something like an office suite isn't easy.
The thing is I am not sure that Office or even OpenOffice is such a good solution for most people. Yes they are both very powerful and you can do anything with them but how many people need that level of power?
Take a word processor for example. How many people even use them anymore? Once you get out of college just how often does one need a word processor?
I will bet that most people use email for written communication these days. Everybody needs one now and then but really how often? And how many people really know how to use Word? I don't mean just enough to get by but know it inside and out?
Then you have spreadsheets with have got to be the single most abused piece of software on the planet. They have almost replaced databases in a lot of places. Not well but they have. The reason is that they are a good way to manage a list of data, not great but good. That leads to people using them when they really shouldn't.
That is why I suggested a FOSS google docs is more important than full office suite.
It think Google Docs does 99% of what people need to do.
Actually they failed to produce a any good aircraft after the P-40. Even the P-40 was looked down on as an also ran. I feel rather unfairly. I was mainly speaking of the Engine division which built several of the best piston aircraft engines in history.
But they failed to invest in jets until it was too late. They believed that piston engines would always be more fuel efficient and would always be the better choice for long range aircraft.
They where wrong and lost the market. Pratt and Whitney on the other had invested early and built Rolls Royce jet engines after the war and put a lot of effort into them.
Okay the make control systems. But that company was a merger of The Curtiss company as in Glen Curtiss and the Wright Engine company an in the Wright Brothers.
The company that made the P-40 fighter plane and the Engines that powered a good percentage of US aircraft in WWII including but not limited too the B-17 Flying Fortress, the B-25, and the B-29!. After the war they produced the engine for long range aircraft.
Until the Jet came along.
They failed to make the leap and are now a relatively small company compared to their main rival.
They did survive but I would say that they went from being a major player to being a supplier.
Frankly I am starting to wonder if Microsoft is going to be the next Curtis Wright.
In 1954 just about every airliner on the planet used their engines. The president of the company said that they could keep making that one engine until the end of time and people would still be buying them.
By 1960 they where no longer a major producer of aircraft engines.
Today they make valves for hydraulic systems.
"GM didn't have to pay for the social costs of that, the taxpayer is. But the taxpayer is also paying the price in greater carbon emissions, lower quality of life (at least for the unemployed), and loss of tax revenue, etc. "
Why should a company have to pay any social cost? They pay taxes just like everybody else. GM closed the plants because people stopped buying their cars. It is as simple as that. Not only that but just look at the anti GM hate over the Volt. Frankly I am deeply confused what people are complaining about. The Volt was from the start a plug in serial hybrid. Now we find out that it can also be a parallel hybrid when that is the most efficient mode and people get BENT!
My goodness that is some great tech people but because it is GM it is somehow evil.
I am all for making stuff in the US but even your statement about companies not paying the social cost is enough to make people run to Mexico in a heartbeat.
I use the community build which is GPL.
But there is also Xen and KVM.
See no problem.
Yep you are correct in many categories.
However I am not endorsing more security or less.
I am endorsing intelligent discusion of the subject without insults, exaggerations, lies, or other types of FUD.
Someone taking my off had comment as an endorsement and simply replaying with what they thought was a witty comment just ticked me off.
I am trying to show both sides of this issue so people can start thinking about the subject instead of just reacting to it.
I completely agree that it merits discusion. I am not even a real supporter of it. I am just pointing out just how stupid the discussion has gotten.
There is so much FUD on this subject from both sides that it makes me want to scream. If someone dares to say that some of the security changes may have saved lives people will flat out state you are stupid, a "neocon", or some other insulting term.
Not really a healthy way to have a discusion or a good way to balance the benefits to the risks.
Those are not counted as attempted attacks. So your statement is a complete lie.
AKA you are using exaggeration and falsehoods because you feel your point is more important than the truth.
What is sad is that I am not really for this mobile body scan crap. If anything we are way to worried that someone will bring a toenail clipper on a plane. I just don't see the threat from that.
But their must be some reasonable middle ground where the risks and benefits will balance.
However anything that isn't the 100 the truth is harmful and useless. It is in fact propaganda like your statement.
However let's go with your statement as being 100% factual.
So people had to put some pocket knives in their luggage and or throw them away and others had to throw away some baby formula. However your number show that those actions prevented at least one terrorist attack on a plane that would have cost several million dollars and somewhere around 100 lives!
That is going with your exaggerated and none factual numbers trying to prove that those actions are not helping.
Since there can be no faction of a terrorist attack you numbers show at least one.
It is all fantasy from start to finish but it a fantasy of your making based on your data.
I have looked at it and it does look interesting. The problem is that Zimbra doesn't really replace exchange unless you pay for the enterprise version.
http://www.zimbra.com/products/compare_products.html
The Community version is not feature complete.
While close not really a FOSS solution for an Exchange replacement.
You are also living with a logical fallacy. How can one judge security measures except by the lack of successful attacks? Why do you lock you car? Have you ever had your car stollen? I bet if you left it unlocked just once that nobody would steal it.
The deterrence value of a security measure is just about un-measurable. However their have been attempted attacks so unlike your tiger and elephant repelling rock there is data to suggest that their is a real threat still.
Now as to the trade off between security and liberty that is a different discusion.
"Granted, none of it's a polished, drop in replacement for Google Docs, but that's life."
That is not a good answer. So what you are saying is that I am correct in that this need is not being met by the FOSS community.
Frankly this is what FOSS is supposed to solve. The there isn't a good open solution for this yet problem.
Try running a browser from 1997 and I am sure it will work just fine in 8MB as well.
Chrome =1.71 MB on my Mac OpenOffice well over 400 MB I am sure a lot of that is data but Yes I would put a browser as a much smaller program than an office suite from the same time.