Males have fired charges against males. Granted, it's rare, but it has happened. And despite all the media coverage that we see when a charge is failed, the reality is that the vast majority of women don't file charges. So your risk is low.
I don't think people like her rule the roost. All the media and social media coverage might make it seem that way at the moment, but in the overall scheme of things, I don't think that's true. Even women are disagreeing with her feelings, how she handled them, etc. Representing the company at the conference was part of their job, so I think it was fair for the company to be upset if they think they weren't well represented. But I don't think PC should have fired anyone.
I agree that engineers are generally at the bottom of the org chart. But those at the top are still generally white males. So all white males are not in power. But most of those in power are white males.
The thing is, males are different from each other, too. There are males who are also offended by some of what they hear; they just don't say anything - at least not to the other males. I'm a female and I don't think things to change just because I enter a room. And there are rooms I deliberately don't enter unless I really need to. But I don't think it's too much to ask to have *each* us of move our lines of what we consider acceptable to accomodate the other person. And I absolutely agree with you about *some* women and their gossip, games, etc. And I tried to kind of quitely mentor them/manage the situation just so we could get the work done. And when that didn't work, I've called them out on it. So if you want to call out the females, do it. And I've had men call out the women because they thought we were being too crude. We were stunned and some of the women didn't want to tone it down. I said that we needed to, to be fair, and because we were would be ticked if the situation were reversed and they didn't comply. So we saved those crude jokes for lunch.
Agreed, unless some of your co-workers are not your frat buddies. Then, I think you can still make the jokes at work, but when around your non-frat buddies, just make an effort not to be overheard, unless you know that they are also okay with those jokes..
I agree that both men and women should be able to make the politically incorrect jokes. I just think each gender should be careful about where they make them and to whom. And it has nothing to do with gender - if you know women who are comfortable with those jokes, fine, continue to make them. And if you know men who are NOT comfortable with them - they do exist - then don't make those jokes around them. Especially at work. There are jokes that I make in my cube that I don't make in the elevator if other people are present, because those other people will overhear. But once I get out of the elevator and away from the crowd, I lower my voice and continue with the joke. I think of it more in terms of friends who "get it" vs. friends who "don't get it" vs. stranger. And I reserve those special jokes for the first group.
I don't think it's necessarily that she has no sense of humour - just a different sense of humour. I didn't think their joke was funny, either, though I wasn't offended by it. (I'm a woman, but a lot of men didn't think it was funny, either. )And if I had been offended, I wouldn't have reacted as she did. I would have spoken to them directly. And if I were afriad to speak to them directly (I'm not), I would have notified the PyCon staff. The last thing that would have occurred to me would have been to take their picture. Having said that, I don't blame her for the firing of the employee. Yes, her action may have triggered it, but they didn't have to fire him. They could have retained him and if they really had a problem with his behavior, they could have "trained" and "reprimanded" him. And whether they had a problem or not, they could issued the standard (admittedly BS) statement. "We regret. ..We don't condone. ..We have taken appropriate action. ..We won't release any details as this is a private personnel matter. .."
I think that's poor management. And probably poor HR policy. You're right. ..you need to know what you said that was so offensive. I'd also want to know how she came to overhear it. Management might not consider that relevant, but I've had co-workers who've "accidentally" seen my email, "accidentally" answered my phone, "accidentally" seen things while rummaging through my desk. ..and to me, the issue was with them, not me, because they didn't see or hear anything offensive during the normal course of business, only while they were violating my privacy. And yes, I know management has a right to go through anything of mine at work, but she was not management.
I wouldn't have done with Adria did, but I didn't view this as something in their personal lives. Granted, they were trying to have a personal conversation, but it was in a public place, where they could be easily overheard. As I said, I wouldn't have done what she did; I wouldn't have even been offended. But I don't think "personal life" applies here. And they were wearing their employer's t-shirt, so they were representing their employer, which most definitely takes it out of their "personal lives".
In today's corporate world, the test for "sexual harassment" is "made someone uncomfortable". No rationality applies. A manager can be sued personally (and lose) because someone on his team made a joke that made someone else feel uncomfortable. It has become over-the-top ridiculous these days.
I don't think the test is quite that stringent in most coporations, at least the larger ones. You also have to consider a "reasonable person" would be offended - and yes, I know that's subjective. And before any action is taken against the alleged perpetrator the alleged victim has to make it know to that individual that s/he is "uncomfortable". I do think the pendlum has swung too far, but I still think the policies need to be in place. Managers (and, yes, some courts) need to get a grip. I wouldn't have reacted as Adria did. I would have ignored it or spoken to them directly. I don't think the male should have been fired. And I understand why SendGrip fired Adria. She couldn't be a dev evangelist with so many devs ticked off at her. But I wish both companies had just done some educaiton. And I hate that SendGrip basically responded to blackmail.
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Males have fired charges against males. Granted, it's rare, but it has happened. And despite all the media coverage that we see when a charge is failed, the reality is that the vast majority of women don't file charges. So your risk is low.
I don't think people like her rule the roost. All the media and social media coverage might make it seem that way at the moment, but in the overall scheme of things, I don't think that's true. Even women are disagreeing with her feelings, how she handled them, etc. Representing the company at the conference was part of their job, so I think it was fair for the company to be upset if they think they weren't well represented. But I don't think PC should have fired anyone.
I consider myself a modern feminist and I don't agree with anything you just said.
I agree that engineers are generally at the bottom of the org chart. But those at the top are still generally white males. So all white males are not in power. But most of those in power are white males.
Kudos.
The thing is, males are different from each other, too. There are males who are also offended by some of what they hear; they just don't say anything - at least not to the other males. I'm a female and I don't think things to change just because I enter a room. And there are rooms I deliberately don't enter unless I really need to. But I don't think it's too much to ask to have *each* us of move our lines of what we consider acceptable to accomodate the other person. And I absolutely agree with you about *some* women and their gossip, games, etc. And I tried to kind of quitely mentor them/manage the situation just so we could get the work done. And when that didn't work, I've called them out on it. So if you want to call out the females, do it. And I've had men call out the women because they thought we were being too crude. We were stunned and some of the women didn't want to tone it down. I said that we needed to, to be fair, and because we were would be ticked if the situation were reversed and they didn't comply. So we saved those crude jokes for lunch.
Agreed, unless some of your co-workers are not your frat buddies. Then, I think you can still make the jokes at work, but when around your non-frat buddies, just make an effort not to be overheard, unless you know that they are also okay with those jokes..
I agree that both men and women should be able to make the politically incorrect jokes. I just think each gender should be careful about where they make them and to whom. And it has nothing to do with gender - if you know women who are comfortable with those jokes, fine, continue to make them. And if you know men who are NOT comfortable with them - they do exist - then don't make those jokes around them. Especially at work. There are jokes that I make in my cube that I don't make in the elevator if other people are present, because those other people will overhear. But once I get out of the elevator and away from the crowd, I lower my voice and continue with the joke. I think of it more in terms of friends who "get it" vs. friends who "don't get it" vs. stranger. And I reserve those special jokes for the first group.
I don't think it's necessarily that she has no sense of humour - just a different sense of humour. I didn't think their joke was funny, either, though I wasn't offended by it. (I'm a woman, but a lot of men didn't think it was funny, either. )And if I had been offended, I wouldn't have reacted as she did. I would have spoken to them directly. And if I were afriad to speak to them directly (I'm not), I would have notified the PyCon staff. The last thing that would have occurred to me would have been to take their picture. Having said that, I don't blame her for the firing of the employee. Yes, her action may have triggered it, but they didn't have to fire him. They could have retained him and if they really had a problem with his behavior, they could have "trained" and "reprimanded" him. And whether they had a problem or not, they could issued the standard (admittedly BS) statement. "We regret. . .We don't condone. . .We have taken appropriate action. . .We won't release any details as this is a private personnel matter. . ."
I think that's poor management. And probably poor HR policy. You're right. . .you need to know what you said that was so offensive. I'd also want to know how she came to overhear it. Management might not consider that relevant, but I've had co-workers who've "accidentally" seen my email, "accidentally" answered my phone, "accidentally" seen things while rummaging through my desk. . .and to me, the issue was with them, not me, because they didn't see or hear anything offensive during the normal course of business, only while they were violating my privacy. And yes, I know management has a right to go through anything of mine at work, but she was not management.
I wouldn't have done with Adria did, but I didn't view this as something in their personal lives. Granted, they were trying to have a personal conversation, but it was in a public place, where they could be easily overheard. As I said, I wouldn't have done what she did; I wouldn't have even been offended. But I don't think "personal life" applies here. And they were wearing their employer's t-shirt, so they were representing their employer, which most definitely takes it out of their "personal lives".
In today's corporate world, the test for "sexual harassment" is "made someone uncomfortable". No rationality applies. A manager can be sued personally (and lose) because someone on his team made a joke that made someone else feel uncomfortable. It has become over-the-top ridiculous these days.
I don't think the test is quite that stringent in most coporations, at least the larger ones. You also have to consider a "reasonable person" would be offended - and yes, I know that's subjective. And before any action is taken against the alleged perpetrator the alleged victim has to make it know to that individual that s/he is "uncomfortable". I do think the pendlum has swung too far, but I still think the policies need to be in place. Managers (and, yes, some courts) need to get a grip. I wouldn't have reacted as Adria did. I would have ignored it or spoken to them directly. I don't think the male should have been fired. And I understand why SendGrip fired Adria. She couldn't be a dev evangelist with so many devs ticked off at her. But I wish both companies had just done some educaiton. And I hate that SendGrip basically responded to blackmail.