Who made up that myth with that old wine.... only the smallest fraction of wine (red, VERY tanin rich) has a chance to survive "decades" without spoiling at all.
Very true. Stelvin closures, Plastic corks, glass stoppers, all superior.
For the short term. Not for any wine that is expected to be held for a decade or more. In other words: only superior for at least 95% of all wine sold, but not for everything.
What needs to happen is that the USPTO needs to go back to being a government service the user fees need to be based upon the amount of time and energy it takes to deal with the application.
I've thought for a long time that the application fees should be increased 50%, with the 50% being rebated in the case of any patent that is issued, but retained for patents that are denied.
So what you are saying is that a consortium of non-Samsung mutually opposed companies are colluding to build 400 million devices this year, selling them for perhaps $120 billion, and losing money on every one. Because they love Google, I suppose, and want them to do well despite their duty to their own shareholders.
Well of course they're not losing money intentionally. However, they are losing money--it's called getting beaten in the marketplace.
To what are you referring when you speak of "the article"? There are several things linked in the posting.
I didn't even notice that. (So many/. summaries have multiple links to the same article...) Anyway to answer your question, the ZDNet article, and it seems that when I read it, I focussed more on the second part of what you quote than on the first. I never have thought of "common code base running across multiple systems" as "the code of entire apps being completely the same across multiple systems". But then again, I don't do much Java work, so maybe his phrasing is more open to interpretation.
So, 2 facts:
1) absolutely indisputable, most journalists writing about the 64-bit thing have no clue at all what it really means and are just spewing,
2) somewhat arguable, but I think true, Kingsley-Hughes seems to be a bit better than most.
" I think it'd be more accurate to say pushing the limit, rather than over it. And 64-bit helps expand the limit."
How can saying nothing be "more accurate" that the simple, straightforward, and correct comment you were replying to?
How is "too heavy to be useful on any ARM processor" is simple straightforward and correct, while "pushing the limit, but not over it" is saying nothing? You're really just spewing.
"True, but that is not what I'm interested in."
Right, you are interested in masturbating to large numbers that you don't understand.
No, I'm interested in exactly what I said I was interested in.
"Not beyond what I've already said. Sorry, but there's things I just should not discuss in a public forum..."
Right...another pretentious, ignorant juvenile. Can't wait to see the revolution you start with this pent-up 64 bit codebase that we all really need in a mobile phone...
Boy, talk about pretentious. Over and over again, you're pontificating with nothing but ignorance. You won't see any revolution, because the product I'm working on is in a boring, old, stagnant sector of business software that is dominated by Windows-only products. (There's good money to made in things like that!) And I never gave ANY implication whatsoever that I had in mind a product that "we all really need", that's just a straw man, purely your own bullshit that you injected. Finally, I am not a juvenile--I suspect I may be twice your age or more, given the immature nature of your attacks. (And don't even bother whining that I'm attacking you too. I'm just responding in kind, and I don't need any more proof that you're so full of shit that it's bubbling over out your mouth.)
They will to give a damn when their phone is 18 months old and no longer holding its charge like it used to, and they realize that progress in smartphones has slowed down and the latest models don't really offer anything new over their current handset, so the hassle of moving everything over to a new phone is not worth it. And they may be locked into a 2 year contract from their last upgrade, so need to wait another 6 months still until they qualify for an upgrade at subsidized prices.
What you're neglecting is progress in batteries. They hold up much better than they used to.
And since you call yourself a developer, and apparently one knowledgable in this area, you know that it's a pretty shitty codebase that has to change because of word size.
I never said anything at all about word size; it's all about virtual address space. In fact, I specifically said: "And yes, this is important. If you use algorithms that need a large virtual space on OS X, and you have to completely back off that and use something else on iOS..." But of course you ignore that part, because when I refer to "algorithms that need a large virtual space", you simply have no clue what the hell I'm talking about, so you come back with some lame non-sequitur about word size because that's the best you've got.
Considering that you are a developer who is "waiting" for 64 bit on iOS, what does this say about your code?
It says that I have something on Mac OS X that is literally orders of magnitude faster than competing products, and my solution will require a large virtual address space, NOT large amount of physical RAM, to work well on iOS. But, again, you have no clue what that means, do you?
Right back at you. Name one useful mobile app that could be enabled by > 4GB virtual space. Come on, Ace...
Well... An entire category of keyword/text search. There;-) Oh, of course it can be done in 32 bits and has been for decades. You go ahead and do yours in SQLite, and I'll do mine, well, my way. And for a decent-sized corpus I'll be somewhere around 1,000 - 10,000 times faster than you.
How many desktop apps, Windows, Mac, or otherwise, cannot be offered in 32 bit? I suspect the answer is essentially none.
Snicker, snort...
There is no market pressure whatsoever to produce a 4GB phone, much less one over 4GB...
Have you actually read one word that I wrote? Seriously, once again, hoping that you actually read it this time, it is NOT about the amount of physical RAM, it is about large virtual address space, alloc'ing and, in some cases, later extending fairly large blocks, and not running out of VIRTUAL ADDRESS space while there's still physical RAM left, but fragmented.
...and that's an existence proof that you are wrong.
Well, that's just the stupidest fucking thing anybody has said in the entirety of these comments. It's wrong in so many ways... First off, you have NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that there is no such market pressure. In fact, all the available evidence that exists points toward users wanting MORE memory. Second the lack of existence says nothing about the desirability, after all RAM takes space and power... Third, there have been 2GB phones shipping for over a year, and there will be a 3GB "phablet" shipping in less than 3 weeks, so 4GB is, right now, today, just one generation away.
Except that my notebooks are all SSD now. Can't the phones use the similar tech?
You're getting out of my realm of expertise, but I think that the flash in your SSD uses substantially more power. (It is also much faster, BTW, that I'm pretty sure of...)
Believe me, I'd like to see paging, but I'm sure Apple did not disallow it arbitrarily.
The IPhone 5s has 1 GB RAM. That is less than 4 GB. Inescapable conclusion is that the state reason is pure spin.
You really just don't know what you're talking about. 64-bit address space enables a lot of advanced techniques, whether or not there's more than 4GB physical RAM available.
4) Removable battery 5) Expandable flash slot
Except that most people don't give a damn about a removable battery. And the expandable flash shot is actually an awful idea from the usability standpoint. A great deal of effort has gone into the design of these Mobile OSs to free the users from having to be concerned with where their files are stored, and the flash slot just messes that up.
Parent wasnt making an absolute statement, he was (correctly) stating that 64-bit will have almost no benefit on a cellphone for a very long time;
That statement is unequivocally wrong. It will have a benefit very soon. It is exactly what I have been waiting for, and I know other developers in the same position. I was hoping for it in 2014, getting it a year early is incredibly sweet.
...and that the author of the article has no idea what they're talking about (since ARM being 64-bit has no relevance to compatibility with a 64-bit Intel processor.
But that's not what the article said. It talked about using the "same codebase", meaning same source code, and thought it didn't state it explicitly, it sure sounded like he was implying same backend data-handling code, not UI. And yes, this is important. If you use algorithms that need a large virtual space on OS X, and you have to completely back off that and use something else on iOS, what a pain--oh, and in some cases, the iOS version is lower-performance as well because of that change. And that sucks. Having to go to lower-performance algorithms on a mobile platform is a double hit to performance.
But hey, if you don't actually have a clue of all the things a 64-bit address space enables, then the above will sound like gibberish...
Not yet, not on your phone. In a few years, maybe.
Well, no shit sherlock. Of course there are not any algorithms running on our phones which require a large virtual address space, because phones don't have that. Duh. Are you really proposing that developers write such software for phones first, and then, upon passing some threshold for the quantity of super-cool new software developed for iPhones but which cannot actually run on iPhones, that then and only then Apple should go to 64-bit???
In the mean time if you're trying to use a DB that's larger than 4GB on your phone you need to get a laptop.
The article is pure speculation. I seriously doubt that bringing iOS apps to Macs is the reason to go 64-bit.
Plus, and this is not a small concern, I think there are plenty of Mac users (like me) who see the notion of OSX becoming more like iOS as something of a big step in the wrong direction.
I agree. Some of the features brought from iOS to Mac were actually nice. Some were very ill advised. What was obviously lacking was some good sense about making choices.
Phones are not going to have more than 4GB or RAM any time soon.
Right, because they don't already have 2GB.
64-bit is Marketing BS at this point.
Right, because there are no algorithms, none whatsoever, not mmapped in-memory databases, not modern runtimes, which benefit from having a large address space that will not be exhausted by fragmentation. Yep, none at all.
Looks like your electricity and Internet are holding up. Got access to clean water and food? I just read a report that residents of Jamestown a bit north of you are being evacuated by air...
Yes, power, internet, water, food. If it weren't for watching the news (both TV & online), I'd literally have no idea that there's so much destruction and so many actual life-and-death emergencies in the area.
Of course, if I tried to go anywhere today, I'd get clued in pretty quickly. What with the missing roads and all:-(
It's a really bizarre feeling. I've been in some (minor) natural disasters before, but never surrounded by it while being untouched. (Well, OK, I do have some leaking windows, but that's nothing.)
Slashdot Mirror
Who made up that myth with that old wine.... only the smallest fraction of wine (red, VERY tanin rich) has a chance to survive "decades" without spoiling at all.
THAT is a myth ;-)
Very true. Stelvin closures, Plastic corks, glass stoppers, all superior.
For the short term. Not for any wine that is expected to be held for a decade or more. In other words: only superior for at least 95% of all wine sold, but not for everything.
What needs to happen is that the USPTO needs to go back to being a government service the user fees need to be based upon the amount of time and energy it takes to deal with the application.
I've thought for a long time that the application fees should be increased 50%, with the 50% being rebated in the case of any patent that is issued, but retained for patents that are denied.
I've made molten steel from scrap in a "giant clay stove".
No you haven't, fire has never, never in the history of man, melted steel. I know this is true because I heard Rosie O'Donnell say so ;-)
I forget how many cat versions Apple used to say was finally ready for 64 bit. I think it started in 10.2, 10.3 definitly had it.
That is simply not true. 10.4 was the first version that offered any 64-bit support, and that was only for non-UI background processes.
One word: mmap()
450 comments, and as far as I can tell, precisely 2 people here who understand this. Fucking pathetic.
So what you are saying is that a consortium of non-Samsung mutually opposed companies are colluding to build 400 million devices this year, selling them for perhaps $120 billion, and losing money on every one. Because they love Google, I suppose, and want them to do well despite their duty to their own shareholders.
Well of course they're not losing money intentionally. However, they are losing money--it's called getting beaten in the marketplace.
To what are you referring when you speak of "the article"? There are several things linked in the posting.
I didn't even notice that. (So many /. summaries have multiple links to the same article...) Anyway to answer your question, the ZDNet article, and it seems that when I read it, I focussed more on the second part of what you quote than on the first. I never have thought of "common code base running across multiple systems" as "the code of entire apps being completely the same across multiple systems". But then again, I don't do much Java work, so maybe his phrasing is more open to interpretation.
So, 2 facts:
1) absolutely indisputable, most journalists writing about the 64-bit thing have no clue at all what it really means and are just spewing,
2) somewhat arguable, but I think true, Kingsley-Hughes seems to be a bit better than most.
Is this the first time they crossed this line? Or have they done so before?
IIRC, the USPS did this as long ago as the 80s...
" I think it'd be more accurate to say pushing the limit, rather than over it. And 64-bit helps expand the limit."
How can saying nothing be "more accurate" that the simple, straightforward, and correct comment you were replying to?
How is "too heavy to be useful on any ARM processor" is simple straightforward and correct, while "pushing the limit, but not over it" is saying nothing? You're really just spewing.
"True, but that is not what I'm interested in."
Right, you are interested in masturbating to large numbers that you don't understand.
No, I'm interested in exactly what I said I was interested in.
"Not beyond what I've already said. Sorry, but there's things I just should not discuss in a public forum..."
Right...another pretentious, ignorant juvenile. Can't wait to see the revolution you start with this pent-up 64 bit codebase that we all really need in a mobile phone...
Boy, talk about pretentious. Over and over again, you're pontificating with nothing but ignorance. You won't see any revolution, because the product I'm working on is in a boring, old, stagnant sector of business software that is dominated by Windows-only products. (There's good money to made in things like that!) And I never gave ANY implication whatsoever that I had in mind a product that "we all really need", that's just a straw man, purely your own bullshit that you injected. Finally, I am not a juvenile--I suspect I may be twice your age or more, given the immature nature of your attacks. (And don't even bother whining that I'm attacking you too. I'm just responding in kind, and I don't need any more proof that you're so full of shit that it's bubbling over out your mouth.)
They will to give a damn when their phone is 18 months old and no longer holding its charge like it used to, and they realize that progress in smartphones has slowed down and the latest models don't really offer anything new over their current handset, so the hassle of moving everything over to a new phone is not worth it. And they may be locked into a 2 year contract from their last upgrade, so need to wait another 6 months still until they qualify for an upgrade at subsidized prices.
What you're neglecting is progress in batteries. They hold up much better than they used to.
And you mean "that's YOUR theory".
It's not just my theory. It's well and widely know. The flash in mobile is not the same as SSD flash.
Judging by your other comments, it's an uninformed one.
Go fuck yourself you ignorant twit.
Why would you want demand paging on a device that (a) intentionally has more memory than any single application needs...
You wouldn't. But that most certainly does not describe any mobile device shipping now, nor in the near future.
And since you call yourself a developer, and apparently one knowledgable in this area, you know that it's a pretty shitty codebase that has to change because of word size.
I never said anything at all about word size; it's all about virtual address space. In fact, I specifically said: "And yes, this is important. If you use algorithms that need a large virtual space on OS X, and you have to completely back off that and use something else on iOS..." But of course you ignore that part, because when I refer to "algorithms that need a large virtual space", you simply have no clue what the hell I'm talking about, so you come back with some lame non-sequitur about word size because that's the best you've got.
Considering that you are a developer who is "waiting" for 64 bit on iOS, what does this say about your code?
It says that I have something on Mac OS X that is literally orders of magnitude faster than competing products, and my solution will require a large virtual address space, NOT large amount of physical RAM, to work well on iOS. But, again, you have no clue what that means, do you?
Right back at you. Name one useful mobile app that could be enabled by > 4GB virtual space. Come on, Ace...
Well... An entire category of keyword/text search. There ;-) Oh, of course it can be done in 32 bits and has been for decades. You go ahead and do yours in SQLite, and I'll do mine, well, my way. And for a decent-sized corpus I'll be somewhere around 1,000 - 10,000 times faster than you.
How many desktop apps, Windows, Mac, or otherwise, cannot be offered in 32 bit? I suspect the answer is essentially none.
Snicker, snort...
There is no market pressure whatsoever to produce a 4GB phone, much less one over 4GB...
Have you actually read one word that I wrote? Seriously, once again, hoping that you actually read it this time, it is NOT about the amount of physical RAM, it is about large virtual address space, alloc'ing and, in some cases, later extending fairly large blocks, and not running out of VIRTUAL ADDRESS space while there's still physical RAM left, but fragmented.
...and that's an existence proof that you are wrong.
Well, that's just the stupidest fucking thing anybody has said in the entirety of these comments. It's wrong in so many ways... First off, you have NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that there is no such market pressure. In fact, all the available evidence that exists points toward users wanting MORE memory. Second the lack of existence says nothing about the desirability, after all RAM takes space and power... Third, there have been 2GB phones shipping for over a year, and there will be a 3GB "phablet" shipping in less than 3 weeks, so 4GB is, right now, today, just one generation away.
Except that my notebooks are all SSD now. Can't the phones use the similar tech?
You're getting out of my realm of expertise, but I think that the flash in your SSD uses substantially more power. (It is also much faster, BTW, that I'm pretty sure of...)
Believe me, I'd like to see paging, but I'm sure Apple did not disallow it arbitrarily.
Anything that would benefit from the move to 64 bits is, most likely, too heavy to be useful on any ARM processor, much less in a phone.
Not quite. I think it'd be more accurate to say pushing the limit, rather than over it. And 64-bit helps expand the limit.
Sure, you can give each app its own chunk of memory addresses with little regard for fragmentation, but that's not an issue on any modern environment.
True, but that is not what I'm interested in.
But, you seem to have examples - care to support your statements with some of them?
Not beyond what I've already said. Sorry, but there's things I just should not discuss in a public forum...
The IPhone 5s has 1 GB RAM. That is less than 4 GB. Inescapable conclusion is that the state reason is pure spin.
You really just don't know what you're talking about. 64-bit address space enables a lot of advanced techniques, whether or not there's more than 4GB physical RAM available.
4) Removable battery
5) Expandable flash slot
Except that most people don't give a damn about a removable battery. And the expandable flash shot is actually an awful idea from the usability standpoint. A great deal of effort has gone into the design of these Mobile OSs to free the users from having to be concerned with where their files are stored, and the flash slot just messes that up.
Parent wasnt making an absolute statement, he was (correctly) stating that 64-bit will have almost no benefit on a cellphone for a very long time;
That statement is unequivocally wrong. It will have a benefit very soon. It is exactly what I have been waiting for, and I know other developers in the same position. I was hoping for it in 2014, getting it a year early is incredibly sweet.
...and that the author of the article has no idea what they're talking about (since ARM being 64-bit has no relevance to compatibility with a 64-bit Intel processor.
But that's not what the article said. It talked about using the "same codebase", meaning same source code, and thought it didn't state it explicitly, it sure sounded like he was implying same backend data-handling code, not UI. And yes, this is important. If you use algorithms that need a large virtual space on OS X, and you have to completely back off that and use something else on iOS, what a pain--oh, and in some cases, the iOS version is lower-performance as well because of that change. And that sucks. Having to go to lower-performance algorithms on a mobile platform is a double hit to performance.
But hey, if you don't actually have a clue of all the things a 64-bit address space enables, then the above will sound like gibberish...
I'm sure there's some reason like battery life or whatever but more than 64bits I want virtual memory.
Demand paging is too much writing, would kill the flash. Well, that's the theory anyway.
Um, what the hell are you talking about? iOS has had a complete implementation of virtual memory since day one.
I think it's reasonable to argue that without demand paging, it's not actually complete ;-)
Not yet, not on your phone. In a few years, maybe.
Well, no shit sherlock. Of course there are not any algorithms running on our phones which require a large virtual address space, because phones don't have that. Duh. Are you really proposing that developers write such software for phones first, and then, upon passing some threshold for the quantity of super-cool new software developed for iPhones but which cannot actually run on iPhones, that then and only then Apple should go to 64-bit???
In the mean time if you're trying to use a DB that's larger than 4GB on your phone you need to get a laptop.
Bullshit. 4GB is tiny.
But, if you read the article, you'll see this:
The article is pure speculation. I seriously doubt that bringing iOS apps to Macs is the reason to go 64-bit.
Plus, and this is not a small concern, I think there are plenty of Mac users (like me) who see the notion of OSX becoming more like iOS as something of a big step in the wrong direction.
I agree. Some of the features brought from iOS to Mac were actually nice. Some were very ill advised. What was obviously lacking was some good sense about making choices.
Phones are not going to have more than 4GB or RAM any time soon.
Right, because they don't already have 2GB.
64-bit is Marketing BS at this point.
Right, because there are no algorithms, none whatsoever, not mmapped in-memory databases, not modern runtimes, which benefit from having a large address space that will not be exhausted by fragmentation. Yep, none at all.
If the margins are so low, why are the owners so rich?
Did you fail basic arithmetic in 4th grade???
Looks like your electricity and Internet are holding up. Got access to clean water and food? I just read a report that residents of Jamestown a bit north of you are being evacuated by air...
Yes, power, internet, water, food. If it weren't for watching the news (both TV & online), I'd literally have no idea that there's so much destruction and so many actual life-and-death emergencies in the area.
Of course, if I tried to go anywhere today, I'd get clued in pretty quickly. What with the missing roads and all :-(
It's a really bizarre feeling. I've been in some (minor) natural disasters before, but never surrounded by it while being untouched. (Well, OK, I do have some leaking windows, but that's nothing.)