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FBI Admits It Controlled Tor Servers Behind Mass Malware Attack
MikeatWired writes "It wasn't ever seriously in doubt, but the FBI yesterday acknowledged that it secretly took control of Freedom Hosting last July, days before the servers of the largest provider of ultra-anonymous hosting were found to be serving custom malware designed to identify visitors. Freedom Hosting's operator, Eric Eoin Marques, had rented the servers from an unnamed commercial hosting provider in France, and paid for them from a bank account in Las Vegas. It's not clear how the FBI took over the servers in late July, but the bureau was temporarily thwarted when Marques somehow regained access and changed the passwords, briefly locking out the FBI until it gained back control. The new details emerged in local press reports from a Thursday bail hearing in Dublin, Ireland, where Marques, 28, is fighting extradition to America on charges that Freedom Hosting facilitated child pornography on a massive scale. He was denied bail today for the second time since his arrest in July. On August 4, all the sites hosted by Freedom Hosting — some with no connection to child porn — began serving an error message with hidden code embedded in the page. Security researchers dissected the code and found it exploited a security hole in Firefox to identify users of the Tor Browser Bundle, reporting back to a mysterious server in Northern Virginia. The FBI was the obvious suspect, but declined to comment on the incident. The FBI also didn't respond to inquiries from WIRED today. But FBI Supervisory Special Agent Brooke Donahue was more forthcoming when he appeared in the Irish court yesterday to bolster the case for keeping Marque behind bars."
Great, FBI...now if you would go ahead and put tormail back up, that'd be great...
Nope, the NSA controlled the servers, it led to an NSA controlled IP address and they have the hackers needed. The BIG FAT LIE was that this block could be used by other agencies. Since potentially NSA broke the law for USA domestic Tor users, we have the FBI stepping forward to take the blame.
But we know its the NSA that tracks and monitors TOR because it was in their leaked document as one of their many excuses for surveillance:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/20/exhibit-b-nsa-procedures-document
Also go read the first leaked warrant that let the NSA collect all the data (link below), it had the FBI's name on it. It was an FBI request to hand the data from Verizon's phone records to the NSA, a simple reacharound the domestic spying laws. The FBI acts as wing man for the NSA:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/verizon-telephone-data-court-order?guni=Article:in%20body%20link
FBI doesn't have the experts, or the IP address or the interest in Tor, it was NSA and it was timed just as the NSA was trying to prevent further leaks from its own analysts. At best the FBI simply provides the excuse, as it did with the Verizon incident.
Land where Freedom will not be tolerated.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Remember when we used to think that U.S. LEOs still had some sense of ethics and would never actually send child porn to anyone to make a case? Now we know that, at least for a while, the FBI was running the servers. The FBI was responsible for serving up, by all accounts, half the *.onion-based child porn sites in the world.
Is this the first time they crossed this line? Or have they done so before?
Its called "unauthorized access of a computer" which is a federal offense.
Oh, I forgot. The internet is US soil, right?
It's far more likely a case of planting "pedo" porn so they would have an excuse to break in and monitor everything in a fit of Snowden based paranoia.
From what I've read, they could have made the payload attack a lot more kinds of browsers to at least reveal their IP address, and the bug they used to run arbitrary code existed on a lot more versions than the single version they attacked.
So why was the attack so targeted? Were they looking for a single person and already knew what code they were running?
Naw the answer has to be more incompetent than that.
"all the sites hosted by Freedom Hosting — some with no connection to child porn"
Uh...huh... More than likely, 99.99% had nothing to do with child porn.
Uhh ... given that he who was the gold makes the rules, if there was a court order allowing it, or a clause in some law allowing it, it was authorized, just not by the owners of the computers.
First they came for the pedophiles on Freedom Hosting, and I said nothing because pedophiles are scum.
Then they came for the drug dealers on Silk Road, and I said nothing because drug dealers are scum too.
Then they came for the leakers on {Wiki|Live|you pick one}Leaks, and I said nothing because I don't have time to read that stuff anyway.
Then they passed a law against using privacy tools such as Tor, Mixmaster, proxies, and crypto, because terrorists 9/11 OMG, and I said nothing because I have nothing to hide.
Then I tried to fly to my Dad's funeral and found out that I'm on the no-fly list. I still am. No one will tell me why, and there's nothing I can do to change it.
Then the police broke down my door because I had set up my wireless router wrong and someone had done something illegal over my connection, and it took me three years to get the charges dropped, and I lost my job and had to file bankruptcy, and I never did get my computer back. And what happened to the government agents who had wrongly prosecuted me? Nothing whatsoever. And what compensation did I get? The court ruled that the government had not violated its rules and therefore I was not owed anything. Have a nice day.
You joke about that but the county next to mine just had the sheriff arrested for that very thing. He would find his opponents or others who made him angry, arrest them for child porn, plant the child porn, and then splash their name all over the news to ruin their reputation. He finally got caught when he arrested the wrong person. This guy called the FBI and the County District Attorney, who both pressed charges against him. I think the total charge count is around 30 felony counts of evidence tampering, witness tampering, intimidation, and other corruption issues. This stuff is too good to be made up sometimes.
Then the "child porn" has done its job nicely.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
Uhh ... given that he who was the gold makes the rules, if there was a court order allowing it, or a clause in some law allowing it, it was authorized, just not by the owners of the computers.
Sorry, but I'm failing to follow your point here. Since when is an electronic device a waiver to standard privacy and due process?
Perhaps if the FBI were trying to break into my car I would understand this analogy better, but my point still stands. A "computer" is not automatic grounds for illegal wiretaps (and when I use the term "illegal", I'm referring to my Constitutionally protected Rights, not some secret court horseshit that "authorized" a waiver around said Rights, which remains illegal no matter who granted it.)
How is any of this remotely legal? Every day we have a new article explaining how the feds have been pounding our apparently imagined liberties in the goat ass, they get 300-500 comments (a lot for ./ these days) and then nothing happens. I'm a healthy skeptic, but this is literally the paranoid conspiracy-theorist's worse nightmare incarnate. I'm flabbergasted. In all seriousness, do we need to just move to a different country at some point? Is this what the start of a pseudo-democracy looks like and we just can't believe the warning signs are real? Just crazy...
Buy your next Linux PC at eightvirtues.com
If there's a court order behind this, it's less problematic in my mind. Not all court orders are publicized even by normal courts; search warrants aren't provided to the targets to challenge before execution precisely so they can't hide or destroy evidence.
The problem I have with this operation is that it was conducted on servers located in France, which means that either French law enforcement was also involved (very possible) or the FBI is hacking servers across international boundaries. That puts at risk any agents involved as they could be tried under French law for such trespass, though given that it was to deal with child pornography, the political result is that it probably wouldn't result in much more than a warning.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
Given the message of the original "First they came ..." by Martin Niemöller, are you suggesting that people "stand up" for pedophiles and drug dealers?
You have quite a confused hodgepodge of things in your list. I see agitation, but not insight.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
And now they can serve gigabytes of child porn to pedophiles, then serve malware to practically everyone who uses Tor, pedo or not, and even stupid fascists who love to ramble on about justice and other shit to justify practically everything will still defend them.
Maybe next they can sell crack too schoolchildren in an attempt to find the crackheads who steal it from them.
So what source do you have to prove this?
because this totally helps things. You make it sound like that people actually have control over their government or something these days.
yes! stand up for rights and freedom regardless.
"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." -- H. L. Mencken
A US court order might as well be toilet paper in France or anywhere else in the world. No US court has the authority to authorise that.
In fact many countries would take that as an act of war.
*cough* alleged paedophiles technically.
Oh an a whole lot of completely legal, less seedy things like email.
This is a reasonable use of their power as long as they had a warrant for the seizure. The problem with FBI computer tactics is that they often don't go through the Constitutional requirements for searches and seizures. But if those requirements are met, then it is completely reasonable for the FBI to hack a pedophile database.
it appears that someone or some group is attempting to intimidate the writers of insightful comments.
it is possible this is an attempt at sardonically drawing attention to the process of intimidation.
eitherway, i believe ALL THESE virtually identical POSTS should not be modded down and hidden, but instead MODDED UP.
everyone should see the violence inherent in the system. help help im being repressed, you saw him didnt you ;)
+5 for unsourced anecdotes?
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Then the police broke down my door because I had set up my wireless router wrong and someone had done something illegal over my connection, and it took me three years to get the charges dropped, and I lost my job and had to file bankruptcy, and I never did get my computer back. And what happened to the government agents who had wrongly prosecuted me? Nothing whatsoever. And what compensation did I get? The court ruled that the government had not violated its rules and therefore I was not owed anything. Have a nice day.
Ah, yes....
Remember all those long-ago Slashdot discussions with one side shouting "Tin-foil hat!" every time possible chilling effects like this were postulated?
Dude, your ID shows that you signed up not much longer after I did (in an era when we told ourselves the old baddies--those twisted, ruthless peronality types--couldn't possibly exist in our groovy postmodern times.
--now--
--here we are!
You're probably on that list for being an opinionated online malcontent.
Good luck to you (and me).
Maybe there is such a law or court order allowing it and it's just hidden? Do you have security clearance enough to know whether they broke the law?
It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
France should take it as such too!
Surrender in 5...4...3...2...
It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
Actually you'd need to turn scripts on in tor, and use it outside of tor too. Two things you are never suppose to do with tor. In fact, it's a security problem that the tor browser pack even allows either of those things to be turned on at all. It ended up serving malware to pretty much nobody, I'd figure. I don't know how stupid the average tor user is.
It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
The presidents of European nations all heal to the same masters as ours. Seen a NYTimes photo of Turkeys elected leader. Same suit, same tie, same generic lapel pin, on the same side. They are uniformed soldiers doing their duty. If there's any outrage from a local or lower government official it will just be to placate the masses, save face, the end of said officials careers. Might as well be clones IMO.
Its not the first time I have read about it. I read about an incident similar to this several years ago in a mainstream news outlet... NYTimes, Time, or some other magazine.
The problem is that it occurs more then once every few years.
I have no strong feelings on this controversy.
Paedophiles, huh?
So you have no strong feelings against YOUR rights being violated as long as it's to catch paedophiles.
Greeting citizen, you have passed the first step towards being permitted to remain a citizen.
Why are drug dealers on SilkRoad scum? Is your local bartender scum as well?
Try felony counts evidence tampering, witness tampering, intimidation and sheriff in google with a one year date limit.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
A US court order might as well be toilet paper in France or anywhere else in the world. No US court has the authority to authorise that.
In fact many countries would take that as an act of war.
They don't need a court order in France or anywhere else in the world other than the US. The concept of "legality" doesn't work the same when you're talking about a government agency operating inside the borders of a different nation.
The insight is a list of ip hunting drag net operations and how just been found reading news via privacy tools on the 'net' could soon be a life changing event ie no-fly list or soon a no buy list.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
This might be the story, or at least a similar one: http://www.wlox.com/story/23305442/look-back-mike-byrds-career-as-sheriff
Did the court order also say they could plant child porn on those computers?
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Which then raises two difficult questions:
Why don't they have control over their government?
What is being done to regain control?
Using that same logic, no court ordered warrant was needed then.
Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
They hacked servers to stop "sharers", and in doing so, planted pedo to make more arrests.
Learn to love Alaska
Yes, that is the implication. If they take away your right to speech by targeting the pedos first, then yes. It's your rights that are gone, and if you don't speak up for the social democrats or gypsies, there won't be anyone left to speak up when they come for you.
That saying was just a re-telling of "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Learn to love Alaska
This is why the ACLU gets so much bad press. They tend to protect the rights of everyone by protecting he rights of the worst of us.
Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
Oh good since I'm in Australia I can hack the CIA with impunity! :D
No, fuck 'em. Take 'em out back and shoot the fuckers.
In fact, no country would actually act on such an "act of war" and few would even claim it was such.
not correct
for some yet to be explained well reason
ff 17.0 and up in the tor-bundle
have "allow javascript " turned ON BY DEFAULT !!!!!
you as the user must DISABLE IT !!!!!!
the BS reason so far has been
"we want more people to use tor on the "clear net" and most clear-net sites NEED javascript
"I don't pitch OpenSUSE Linux to my friends, i let Microsoft do it for me
All they did was to create there very own "home grown ...( fill in the blank ) " .
and the Govt. wonders where they come from
the Govt. makes them .
"I don't pitch OpenSUSE Linux to my friends, i let Microsoft do it for me
You're probably on that list for being an opinionated online malcontent.
And for openly giving money to WikiLeaks :)
Now you touch the point the FBI relies on... Yell childporn and most people shy away. Defending rights and such is nice and well, but who want to be seen as defending childporn. And so people happily ignore the rights of other users being ignored. It works equally well with terrorism. The RIAA screaming how illegal downloading supports terrorists. By now any bittorrent traffic is seen as something illegal.
That may cover Larry Flynt, for better or worse, but it won't cover Geoffrey Portway .
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Yes! Crime against children should be death. They keep doing it until they get caught. They start with pictures and then end up at playgrounds. There is no treatment. Repeat offenses are more than 90%.
Eh, well. Don't really have a problem with bartenders or those who only sell weed. Relatively harmless. Was thinking more in terms of the people, at all levels of the business, who made meth and sold it to my brother, thereby helping him thoroughly fuck up his head and destroy his life. (Unlike the no-fly list etc. above, not speaking rhetorically this time.) And all the other people who likewise make their living by helping people fuck themselves up.
(Of course, the perfectly legal tobacco industry is ethically in the same category -- only difference is that it generally doesn't destroy the victim until after they've left the workforce, so people don't care as much.)
It shows exactly the point. Yes you need the defend the rights of pedophiles and drugs dealers. The are the same rights as the rights of the innocent people. It leads for example to laws against encryption because terrorists and pedophiles can use encryption. Rights are stripped away because we fight terrorists and pedophiles, but its not just the rights of pedophiles and terrorists that are being stripped away, it's everybody's rights that are being stripped away...
He wrote "pedophiles," not "alleged pedophiles," and "drug dealers," not "alleged drug dealers ." I assume he knew what he meant with his rhetorical device.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
There is no "right" to molest children.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." -- H. L. Mencken
Brilliant, as most of the stuff Mencken said/wrote!
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
You have this correct, "Yes you need the defend the rights of pedophiles and drugs dealers. The are the same rights as the rights of the innocent people." They have the same Constitutional rights as other people, but they do not have the right to engage in their crimes. Pedophiles have the right to remain silent, and trial by jury, but not to molest children.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Yes, including this: "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
So the FBI had a treasure trove of evidence that would lead to the prevention of actual children being abused, and instead of tracking down all those leads they decided to prosecute the people who provided them that treasure trove.
There. FTFY.
Were I director of the FBI, I'd be obtaining warrants based on this info left and right. That would be perfectly legitimate; but NooooO. They have to go after the network instead. Why? Is it possible that they actually depend on pedos? Kinda like the DEA--make drugs a public health issue rather than a law enforcement issue, and they're out of a job. Get the actual kiddie porn producers off the street, and a lot of FBI agents might be out of jobs too.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
I thought it is constantly promoted as the best democracy there is..
Don't tell me that was marketing and PR bullshit. LOL.
And being a socialist/communist is wrong, why?
http://www.wlox.com/story/23301502/byrd-indictment-details-charges-involving-surveillance-sex
might be more relevant
http://ftpcontent4.worldnow.com/wlox/Byrd%20Indictment.pdf
However although there are charges essentially relating to misuse of police resources and abuse of his position. There are no charges relating to planting of evidence with regards to the 2 cases of child porn and cannabis where the defendants were cleared. However if there were such charges then you would have to assume that any cases brought by his department may be tainted and that is a massive can of worms to open.
Blarney Quality Restaurant, Plants
Sorry. Teachers need to live too.
Signed W.W.
The famous case of the UK hacker who got into US government computers looking for an alien cover up established that the US will seek to extradite people who do that even if they don't set foot in the US.
I don't watch the show, but it sure would be ironic if someone in W.W.'s family ended up addicted to meth, wouldn't it? I don't know if they've done that or plan to, but I'm sure they've thought of it.
Actions have consequences. W.W.'s score: plus 10 for trying to provide for his family, minus several million for doing it by enabling hundreds of people to destroy their lives.
You should add this one to H. L. Mencken's wikiquote page.
This is like saying a truck driver should be arrested and sentenced for mass murder due to the fumes coming from their exhaust -.- (Jakizak)
Would it be that conspiracy theorist to suggest the feds just asked them to turn it on.
It shouldn't even be able to be turned on. Like even if people tried. And it shouldn't let you access clear-net either. If you're going to write a bundle with clear security problems, if people do things wrong, you should not allow those things to be done.
It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
straw men much?
Nor is there a right to trample over the rights of everyone to get a very few...
Without Windows OS, the kiddie fiddlers would not be able to view CP on a computer.
Therefore ARREST BILL GATES! MS have a major HQ in Ireland, so DO IT.
The claim is 500% bullshit.
There is no treatment. Repeat offenses are more than 90%.
100% wrong on both counts.
There's no "right" to teach your child creationism. And it's as demonstrably harmful to the psyche of the child to teach them christianity as to fondle their hairless bits.
So shall we arrest parents who indoctrinate their kids?
There is also the right to a fair trial.
Or is that not possible for people who are accused of paedophilia, you paedo scumbag?
(NOTE: There is no need for me to prove my case, all I have to do is accuse it. And, being an accused paedo scumbag, you cannot defend yourself, since there's no "right" to molest children, you paed shitstain).
How is judging a political leader's skills and ideology by the clothes they wear, insightful?
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Time to start null routing all address blocks known to be used by the FBI?
Don't really have time to debunk this properly, but I do recall that the ACLU has defended the right of Nazis to have a parade. How does that jibe with your claim?
Murderers have rights. Pedophiles have rights. Rapists have rights.
They have rights because the best of us and the worst of us share these rights. The powers-that-be want to nibble away at rights of the seemingly most deserving parts of the community, but we'll ALL suffer if these rights cease being universal. As someone else here quoted : "The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." -- H. L. Mencken
>I have no strong feelings on this controversy.
They kept servers running distributing illegal media. For a while FBI was probably the biggest distributor of child pornography on the planet.
That is the american law enforcement way: "we're the good guys so we can break the law". actually that is the whole american government way.
but tor itself appears safe from government intercept for time being(due to them having to stick to this).. it's just what you visit it that might not be.
and also due to the way their tracking hack worked(if it worked as reported some time ago already) they probably had a high false positive rate(if they went on to bust everyone on their list) on their tracking and if you ran a tor exit node you probably ended up on their tracked list.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Child protection is one of those Law enforcement things that seems to have gotten its shit together with better than normal coporation.
You have 5 Moderator Points!
Which Helpless Linux zealot/MS basher do you want to mod down today?
Get Linus to perm block NSA IP addresses in the linux kernel.
Get every one at home and at all levels of business etc... and android phones/tablets to block all those IP addresses too in all firewalls/modems.
Infact we could probably black list dozens of A classes by default, and not one would notice.
We need a distributed ipchains black list that includes all governments of all countries.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
If you blame drug dealers for messing up your brother's life, you also have to blame bartenders for all the alcoholism, convenience store clerks for all the smoking related deaths, farmers for the obesity epidemic, etc, etc, etc. Or you could just admit that your brother made his own choices and it's no one's fault but his own.
You have this correct, "Yes you need the defend the rights of pedophiles and drugs dealers. The are the same rights as the rights of the innocent people." They have the same Constitutional rights as other people, but they do not have the right to engage in their crimes.
Neither do other people, so that's correct too.
There already is such a thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PeerGuardian
It's been around for years and there is a "Government IP blocklist"
The problems with these lists are they are overly broad. You end up blocking a lot of ranges that really aren't what you think they are.
And the NSA/FBI/CIA can just get new IP's at a whim. They likely have compromised equipment in nearly every company out there as well so they could make it look like they were coming from just about anywhere.
The anonymity of the internet is one of their greatest weapons despite the fact it's what they're trying to destroy.
I don't think a US court order granting permission to hack a computer in France is valid in France, and probably not in Ireland either.
France should take it as such too! Surrender in 5...4...3...2...
Dude, it's 2013, not 2003. France are the US's new best chums now, because they were going to help with the planned strikes in Syria. In fact, John Kerry referred to France as their "oldest ally" in a manner widely interpreted as a snub to the UK, whose parliament had voted against taking part (although the Prime Minister had been in favour).
Of course, we've been here before with the positions reversed- we all remember when the UK went along with the Iraq war and France were against, how pathetically childish Bush was towards France and how he publicly flattered the UK and Tony Blair as the US's closest ally and best chum. Of course, Blair being an egotistical ***** continued sucking up to the US in the belief that this would buy further influence over them long after it was obvious to anyone that the US only did what it would have done anyway (and admitted as much in private). I commented on this circa 2007 and also noted that- even though Bush was still in power then- France (and Germany's) defiance of the US earlier in the decade had not resulted in any long term damage to their relationship with them, just as the UK had not gained any substantial influence with its sucking up.
In short, even if one is an amoral realpolitician (realpolitikian?!), it shows that public sucking-up to- and being publicly flattered as a junior partner by- the US buys little substantial long-term influence, and isn't worth worrying about as much as paranoid-about-losing-global-power British leaders like to think.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
I can't wait until China drops the big, fat bomb that it has rooted every corporate, private and government server in the entire US, probably like circa 2002.
Corrupt sheriffs and cops getting busted for planting evidence against political opponents is all-too-common where I'm from in the South. I can think of dozens of cases just off the top of my head. It's almosr a shock here to encounter cops who AREN'T corrupt.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
That's a common argument that is told to conservatives to convince them that the ACLU is an evil liberal organization who should be hated. It was, as you point out, originally created to defend Communists from unconstitutional harassment, but that had a lot to do with the fact that Communists and people with communist ideas were unconstitutionally targeted by the US government from about 1880 until about 1990.
Some examples of causes the ACLU has helped protect their civil rights:
- National Socialist Party of America.
- Westboro Baptist Church
- atheist Michael Newdow
- NAMBLA
- Anyone who drives
- Anyone who wants to be able to view adult images on the Internet
- Senator Mitch McConnell (R-KT)
- An ISP that didn't want to spy for the government
I am officially gone from
Murderers have rights. Pedophiles have rights. Rapists have rights.
That's right, they do. They have the same rights as the rest of us, including the right to a speedy, fair, trial by jury, and the right to remain silent. What they don't have is the right to murder, molest children, and to rape. I don't know how people don't get that.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Noone said they did, so pack away that straw man. ;) The argument is our privacy is sacred, and even though it can sometimes shield the guilty it shields the innocent from tyranny too.
"No one it going to war for more thing like this. Go watch more tv dramas."
Exactly, they'll stop harassing copyright violators for a couple of years , let US cars rot for months in customs an other such niceties.
Or they just take away Justin Bieber's monkey.
They also have the rights to:
speech, or of the press;
or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,
to petition the Government for a redress of grievances
The right to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
the right to have no Warrants issued, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized
Note, an awful large number of there have to do with things the FBI did wrong. Also, note, that we have no idea who the murderers, pedophiles and rapests are until AFTER the speedy, fail trial by jury.
"in fact, John Kerry referred to France as [our] "oldest ally" "
Well, that is true. They did help us in the Revolution.
But, yes, politicians are back-stabbing assholes in general.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
Translation: Incompetence is irrelevant. Move along, nothing to see here.
The real problem being the US government doesn't really have a duty of care to anyone it arrests or labels a 'security risk'. The government's duty to provide legal representation is diluted into an overworked, barely competent public defender. A multitude of news reports contradict the propaganda pouring out of cop-dramas. Once convicted, a US citizen can no longer oppose any laws and policies. This leaves a flock of sheeple thinking 'The government would never do that" until it's too late.
He didn't say it was wrong. He said they focus more on rights that lead to the empowerment of the socialist/communist, and not so much on rights that do the opposite.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
there are two issues here: illegal search of the hosting computers and the illegal installation of software on computers visiting those hosts. You might be able to get away with the first if the servers are hosted in your country of jurisdiction and you have a warrant. I do not see how any court order can allow the installation of malware on other computers. This would be akin to the FBI installing a tracking device (and one which might cause harm) on every car which parks in a lot which serves legit businesses as well as an "adult bookstore of interest". That doesn't fly.
I prefer to think of criminal lawyers as the people watching the police. If lawyers worked as champions of (judicial) transparency, prosecutors couldn't claim:
- national security
- I do not have to obey the law
- the defendant has no rights
- hearsay is evidence of guilt
So. has TOR now been permanently compromised?
So let's follow your logic to its final conclusion.
I accuse you of being a pedophile. By your own admission, you now have NO rights what so ever, as pedophiles don't have the right to rape children, which I claim you did.
I have a secret court order that I can't show you, and you can't even tell anyone about under penalty of death.
You'll just have to trust me on that one (Clearly not a problem for one such as yourself who admits people such as yourself have no rights)
Now you have just given me the right to murder you, I mean "kill you" as you put it. (Murder is the crime, killing is when its legal like this)
If you resist, I can rely on the fact you have no rights due to being called a pedophile that rapes children, which you have no right to do, and you make no distinction based on if you have actually done it or not so thankfully that detail doesn't matter.
If you DON'T resist, I can also kill you, since the secret court order I can't show you says I can, despite the fact you can't even verify that as truth.
Lastly, not only are you dead, but due to your opinions on the law, literally anyone can kill anyone else using the same rules you setup justifying your own murder.
Way to destroy freedom, pedo!
Route all United States Government IP addresses to 127.0.0.1. Update /etc/host files as necessary.
Murderers have rights. Pedophiles have rights. Rapists have rights.
That's right, they do. They have the same rights as the rest of us, including the right to a speedy, fair, trial by jury, and the right to remain silent. What they don't have is the right to murder, molest children, and to rape. I don't know how people don't get that.
I don't see anyone here suggesting otherwise.
In a cybernetic fit of rage she pissed off to another age...
... a US court order granting permission to hack a computer in France isn't legal in the US either.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
How the hell did they miss "possession of child porn"? Are they too slow to figure out that you can't plant child porn if you don't posses it?
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Dude, it's 2013, not 2003. France are the US's new best chums now
So you're saying that they surrendered beforehand to save everyone the trouble of declaring war.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
You should learn to see. You should also learn basic civics. Nobody is suggesting that people "stand up" for the rights of pedophiles and drug dealers to be pedophiles and drug dealers. It is the right against unreasonable search and seizure, and lets not forget evidence planting. Your rationalization (it isn't a rationale, it's a rationalization) is that the people are guilty and so there is therefore no reason to follow due process to determine their guilt.
That being said, the US government absolutely stands up for the rights of drug dealers to be drug dealers all the time. Perhaps you have never heard of Anheuser-Busch or a Methadone clinic? The US is fine with drug dealers as long as they get their cut and there isn't too much public outcry with the hypocrisy dial set to 11.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
I know what you mean. I think we can fairly criticize them for not taking their unlimited temporal, manpower, and financial resources and failing to defend every wrong. Whomever came up with the idea that you have to pick your battles clearly was a scoundrel!
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
It isn't that they pick their battles, but what battles they pick.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Actually, reading more carefully perhaps one could argue they did. I don't think that was the meaning, but if it was I guess they'd be saying "all men have the freedom to be good or evil, unless they don't in which case they are not free". I wouldn't agree - it sounds libertarian to me, and I'm not of that flavour and believe that some impingements on freedom given human failings are warranted. In the tradeoff between dangers, however, an out-of-control secret service is FAR more terrible than even a pedo epidemic, and terrorists are a pathetic crazy few unless they actually have a legitimate grevance or their host population is humiliated enough to give them popular support eg. parts of Iraq and Afghanistan. I've also got family history backing up the danger of secret services and state power too (disappeared family members, multiple state-based dark events to escape from over the years). Hell, democracy is based on division of power precicely because concentrated it is so corrupting and dangerous.
Yes. They do. OTOH, reading something isn't "absorbing it as information." It can be used as a talking point just like Tom Sawyer is often used. Why the hell would anyone think otherwise. Unless you want to outlaw the Bible it is certainly a right for people to read mass quantities of ludicrous information.
It is fine to discuss these in Science class, and they have never said it wasn't You can't teach it. Discussion of why they are morons is totally acceptable. I'm sure the ACLU also won't allow the banning of Tom Sawyer from access to students. That doesn't make the ACLU pro-slavery. The whole article reads exactly like what it is: the ramblings of idiots who feel that their imaginary friend has been insulted. I'm not even going to follow the second link.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
That is like saying you found a bigger turd in the toilet bowl.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
I have to wonder how much longer the people in this country are going to sit back and shake their heads whenever the government breaks the law for convenience, or the congress hacks off another chunk of the bill of rights, or middle class America is handed the bill for another round of horrible investments made by professional investors in banks, , before they begin standing up over such events and making a big noise about it. Apathy may have already led us too far, I'm not sure. My crystal ball sees middle class America continuing to lose their rights, ultimately their right to vote. Those in control think the country would run better if decisions were made by knowledgeable people of their chosing, and put a stop to too many uninformed Joe Blows throwing wrenches in the works. Get rid of most of the government and remove restrictions on business. The middle class will come to serve corporations, who will control most everything anyway. These same corporations will continue to treat their employees as they do now, or it will get worse. Social Security will be cut--after all, old people aren't productive and contribute little to the economy, so why help them to live longer? Besides, they can't complain as well as younger people, so what they have is like a reserve asset to be raided when necessary.
Until US citizens stand up and in no uncertain terms let the politicians know that we're not going to tolerate it any more, things are going to get progressively worse, I'm afraid.
NR
Nobody is suggesting that people "stand up" for the rights of pedophiles and drug dealers to be pedophiles and drug dealers.
Actually yes there are, not only in advocacy, but also in various legal and legislative fights. There are people that post such advocacy on Slashdot with some regularity.
It is the right against unreasonable search and seizure, and lets not forget evidence planting.
That should apply in any case. There will obviously be debates about what constitutes "unreasonable."
Your rationalization (it isn't a rationale, it's a rationalization) is that the people are guilty and so there is therefore no reason to follow due process to determine their guilt.
No, I think that due process must be followed.
You should learn to see. You should also learn basic civics.
I might suggest the same to you, as well as to become better informed.
"Pedophilia Chic" Reconsidered
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
It must have been the line "are you suggesting that people "stand up" for pedophiles and drug dealers?" that confused me. For some reason I thought that meant that they don't have the right to due process. In my defense, that is because that is exactly what you implied.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
From the article at the first link:
... Last week, the ACLU was in federal court, arguing that a Miami-Dade County school board broke the law by removing from its school libraries a book entitled Vamos a Cuba (Let’s Visit Cuba), which offers a strangely luminous view of life in Castro’s island “paradise.” A federal judge has already ruled that the book be returned to the shelves until the case can play out in court.
The school board’s beef isn’t with what is on the pages, but with what isn’t. Parents filed complaints after finding the book to be devoid of any mention of the oppressive regime instituted by Fidel Castro nearly 50 years ago. Instead, its pages are filled with breezy commentaries on how Cubans enjoy chicken with rice (under the country’s subsidized ration plan, the average Cuban is allotted a whopping 8 ounces per month) and boating as a leisure activity (“boating” being a rather ironic term for the fragile, homemade rafts so many launch out onto the ocean, in desperate bids to escape the regime).
The book’s cover, available in both English and Spanish versions, is adorned with beaming children dressed in the uniform of the Pioneers, the Communist youth organization that Cuban children are required to join. They look like Cuban Bobbsey Twins.
Obviously, the Miami children targeted for this book have never been told that questioning the Cuban government is likely to lead to imprisonment that milk is far too expensive for most on the island to purchase that access to everyday activities like surfing the Internet is not only severely limited, but closely monitored by the government for any shred of dissent against Castro and his cronies.
Absent from the pages of Vamos a Cuba is any mention of the ruthless 20-year prison sentences levied on Cuban poets and journalists and priests who failed to fawn over their fearless leader. Instead, the book depicts Cubans as living as freely as they please.
I think that is a more substantial concern that you let on.
I'm not even going to follow the second link.
I think I can understand why you might find it disagreeable.
The ACLU’s untold Stalinist heritage
Other documents released in the 1990s by KGB defector Vasili Mitrokhin show the American Communist Party was under the Moscow’s direct control until 1989.
“These guys were advocating a regime that arguably was the biggest mass murderer in all of human history,” Kengor said. “Where is the moral authority in that?”
Kengor told The Daily Caller he found numerous other documents in the Soviet Comintern archives that also show a close relationship between the Communist Party and the ACLU.
These documents corroborate rumors that have circulated about the ACLU’s founders and early leaders dating back to the 1920s.
The ACLU would not comment on Kengor’s research, but the ACLU’s official history describes its founders as a “small group of idealists” who began the organization amid the “Palmer Raids” of late 1919 and early 1920 against “so-called radicals”.
“The problem here is what is being left out of the narrative,” Kengor said. “Palmer, who was attorney general to Woodrow Wilson, the great progressive’s progressive, understood, as did the Wilson administration, that many of these radicals were American communists who were literally devoted to the overthrow of the U.S. government and its replacement with a ‘Soviet-American republic.’
“American communists actually stated such things in their proclamations, documents, and fliers.”
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Plonk.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Agreed. But, not all pedos are child molesters, and not all people charged with possession of CP and abuse are guilty of those crimes But hey, 'THINK OF THE CHILDREN!' sure is handy in getting some potential opposition to turn off their brains and go with the flow, or to stay silent because who wants to defend pedos?
Accused "X" have rights, which is probably the most important thing.
A person accused has the right to a FAIR trial. Fair includes not having one's life ruined in pursuit of a witch-hunt.
Convicted "X" have less rights, but they still have rights too. However these days even the accusation is being treated as assumed guilt.
Now you touch the point the FBI relies on... Yell childporn and most people shy away. Defending rights and such is nice and well, but who want to be seen as defending childporn. And so people happily ignore the rights of other users being ignored. It works equally well with terrorism. The RIAA screaming how illegal downloading supports terrorists. By now any bittorrent traffic is seen as something illegal.
Here's a great example, from Canada
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/tories-on-e-snooping-stand-with-us-or-with-the-child-pornographers/article545799/
They are. I totally love France. They are great. But, just because Bush was actually an asshole about it above and beyond a gentle ribbing. Doesn't mean the standard fair of croissant eating surrender monkeys stopped being a go-to joke. What next I can't make fun of the British's teeth because their health plans added it and they largely have fine teeth now? Or that they boil their food because sometimes they don't?
It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
Someone needs to write this generations 1984 or uncle toms cabin. that is what
We put a virus in your virus. So we could pwn your computer while it was being pwned.
Have gnu, will travel.
The US doesn't extradite anybody for any action which is protected here by the US constitution. So for example, if I were to post Nazi propaganda on a German server somewhere, Germany wouldn't have any luck getting me extradited since it is protected by the first amendment.
I'm not sure how far down that extends to regular laws though, but I do know that it does. If these agents were acting within US laws (i.e. everything was done by the book,) France would have an extremely difficult time seeking extradition.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
It's more correct to say we helped them in one of the intermediate phases of the Second Hundred Years War.
It was about as noble and glorious as when the US created Panama. France provided most of the guns, gunpowder, and cannon, landed a sizable army, provided military advisors for the Americans, and not only provided all of the naval forces but pretty much won the war for us at the Battle of the Chesapeake. Also, they spent over 1 billion livres, increasing their national debt by about 1/3.
If you look up the numbers involved, it's pretty impressive, perhaps equivalent in proportion to the US involvement in Vietnam.
The problem with the ACLU is that it's sticking to a legal strategy that has consistently lost for 40+ years. Trying to find "perfect arguments" and "perfect clients" that they think are "just right" to advance the legal field on isolated legal issues just doesn't work anymore. There are just too many variables in too many jurisdictions you can't control for.
What does work? Look at the conservatives' wins over the past 40 years. (And for that matter, the liberals at the CCR who farmed out the Gitmo habeas cases simultanously.) If you actually help everyone who asks for it, eventually you'll get enough relevant case law on the subject. It may not be the most ideal case law on the planet, but at least it'll be answering the question you initially asked. Consequently, the judges who are already in your court make laws can craft arguments that lean in your favor. If you don't, then there's a very good chance that they'd dismiss it. May not be perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than what's been going on since 1969.
That said, the ACLU PR team just can't be beat.
"9/11 couldn't have been an inside job. The ability to keep it secret would be impossible."
For 6 years the US government has been running the worlds largest spying network. Many billions spent. Nobody knew until someone at the center revealed the truth.
9/11 would have been trivial to pull off by comparison.
For those of us that aren't averse to conspiracy, Masonic symbolism is a big one =)
Also, birds of a feather, flock together. Fashion is dictated more by station then personal preference in those circles.
th[a]n
Straw man? Hardly. It is fairly common to see people advocate for the normalization of aspects of pedophilia and their interests on Slashdot, and there is an undercurrent of it in society.
Nor is there a right to trample over the rights of everyone to get a very few...
Fair enough. But uncritically accepting whatever content is in a passage aping a respected literary form is a way to end up in an absurd position. "First they came for the pedophiles...." indeed.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Unless it is the US and the target is a government organisation of course.
How many people has the US attempted to extradite who have never stepped foot in the US again?
"Eric Eoin Marques, had rented the servers from an unnamed commercial hosting provider in France, and paid for them from a bank account in Las Vegas. It's not clear how the FBI took over the servers in late July, but the bureau was temporarily thwarted when Marques somehow regained access and changed the passwords, briefly locking out the FBI until it gained back control"
...
I figure that's why they subsequently flung the kiddy porn charge at him, no one is going to go to the trouble of defending a paedophile
So how would you feel if the FBI came to your door and said that they'd like to see your computers to see if there was any child porn on them?
How would you feel if you were walking down the street and the FBI stopped and searched you to see if you had any child porn on you?
They're doing it to find pedos, so that would fine for you, right?
"Investigators have not commented on the case but local press accounts reported that FBI Supervisory Special Agent Brooke Donahue testified in court that Marques dove for his laptop when agents raided his home this summer. A forged passport was found in Marques’ possession and" ..
a. No FBI agents were present when they raided his home.
b. Marques did not 'dove for his laptop`.
c. Marques did not possess a forged passport.
c. The FBI uploaded the porn that was subsequently used to arrest Marques.
That include Iraqi and Afghani children?
No kidding. If I was a governmental agency trying to act all secretive, I'd probably start with a comcast or fios account that leads to a storage unit or something. It would be mind bogglingly stupid to engage in surveillance that can be traced back to the IP block of the agency.
...are you suggesting that people "stand up" for pedophiles and drug dealers?
Can't we punish those who are abusing children while ignoring those who are merely trading copies of the evidence? Those exceptions to free speech make a convenient excuse for the government to crush anything that allows speech that they cannot monitor.
There is no "right" to molest children.
No, but perhaps it wouldn't hurt to have a right to possession of evidence of the crime. After all, if watching people being robbed at gunpoint gets you off, you'll find lots of "gunpoint porn" on YouTube in the form of security camera footage, and you can watch it all day without worry that the FBI might kick down your door and shoot you when they "see" you reach for a gun you don't even own. Also, if "murder porn" is your thing, then good for you because that's 100% legal as well. Granted, anyone who is caught producing murder porn will be put in jail for life if not executed, but the resulting video is completely legal. ...and why shouldn't it be? As long as there's one exception to free speech, the government has a wonderful excuse to shut down anything that allows people to communicate in ways they can't monitor.
There is no "right" to molest children.
True, but it is REALLY easy to sign away your rights in the name of chasing boogeymen...child molesters exist. Using insane measures to catch a small but terrible portion of society is not acceptable.
Technically,.. the French ARE our oldest ally... wasn't it they that helped us kick the British out of the US?
Its called "unauthorized access of a computer" which is a federal offense.
What the FBI is saying is that they planted the PORN, and all the other crap, since they had taken over his servers.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
wonder which one of those professions are different?
All of them?
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
It just so happens that Everyone's rights are protected when you protect the rights of those that you dislike. So even if the ACLU only fought to protect commies, they would still be protecting everyone's rights.
To blow your mind a little more, The NRA and the ACLU are working Together! against the NSA spying.
Protecting any groups right to assemble and speech protects everyones right to assemble and speech.
Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
It depends on the treaty involved, but generally one cannot be extradited for an act which is not a crime in the hosting country. As you mention, someone in the US (even a German citizen) who posts something pro-Nazi is protected from extradition to Germany because the First Amendment applies to anyone in the US. A US citizen who goes to Europe and has sex with a 17-year-old has broken US federal law, but not necessarily the laws in some countries in Europe, and so might not get extradited to the US.
Extradition law gets complex, though. Even where there is overlapping criminal law, there can be subtleties in the laws broken, whether there would be enough evidence if the crime occurred in the hosting country, etc.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.