Please explain economics to me then. I have bought nearly all my tickets from scalpers at less than face value so I don't think I'm wasting money.
I'll lay out the premise so you can easily understand:
There are a fixed number of tickets (supply is inelastic thus a vertical supply curve) [See here and here] Demand is how many tickets will sell at a given price (demand is elastic and will change with price)
Most high demand concerts that I've seen price their tickets in such a way that there are not enough to satisfy demand at that price even if every ticket was purchased by a person going to the show. So that means at face value of the ticket demand will not be satisfied and equilibrium will not be reached. Pretty basic economics (think what happens in rent control).
To totally clear ticket demand there should be no face value and tickets should be sold using some sort of dutch auction. The scalpers are crudely filling this gap in demand at a certain price and supply by raising the price.
Dumping the scalpers will not change supply one bit (it won't suddenly add seats to the event). High demand events will still end up without enough tickets because of the artificially low prices. The difference is that if you miss the click lottery you will have no other option to find a ticket. They will be sold out.
What I think we'll eventually see is all tickets will be sold auction style. When the organizers see scalpers making this much money on under priced tickets they will want in on it. When that happens I'm sure the same people will cry about tickets costing too much but then they won't have the scalper boogeyman to blame.
Why lock the ticket to a person? You're basically putting DRM on a ticket. And show ID to buy a ticket, that's absurd.
I'll just go with that you agree that some dutch auction style selling of the tickets is the way to go. Obviously we'll get the people crying who can't afford whatever the bid price ends up being, but it will substantially cut down on the scalping.
BTW, I lived in a small town for a very long time I've never seen this sold out show where no one showed up. A link to an article that talks about how 20%-30%+ seats were empty at some show because scalpers refused (ROFL) to sell the tickets would be a big help.
We tend to call it "buying tickets at face value from the venue or predetermined representatives of the venue who charge a price set by the venue."
The only thing recognized by scalping is that many even tickets are simply under priced to begin with. Would it make you feel better if the ticket prices were increased or if some sort of auction was used? That would finally match the ticket price with actual demand and put the scalpers out of business.
Otherwise, the artificially low prices mean that in order to see a high demand show you have to get lucky and win the click lottery. Right now we have both, win the click lottery and pay the artificially low price or if you lose you can pay market rates.
When I go to see Wynton Marsalis and the 8 rows ahead of me are empty but I had to pay a scalper 4x face value to get a seat
You didn't have to pay him anything. Obviously demand was high if he got you to pay 4x face value. Would you have rather not had that option at all because you lost the click lottery when tickets became available? Or maybe you just want to government to force the entertainer to do addition showings until everyone who wants to go gets to go at that great low price?
How are the limiting supply? Find me a story where the scalpers were buying and destroying tickets because that is the ONLY way they can limit the supply.
You can blame the market for increasing the price. The supply of tickets is constrained by the venue (and number of shows). As demand goes up the supply doesn't move so prices increases (we're talking basic econ 101 stuff now). It works in the opposite also, as I have taken advantage of many times.
Do you really think an event with any popularity (the only time scalpers can really sell tickets at higher prices) is going to still have tickets available at the box office the day of the show? Yeah, lets just head up to the box office the day of the Rolling Stones concert and buy some tickets. They won't be sold out and if they are it's because of those scalpers! ROFL.
Like I said before, the only way to get rid of scalpers is to raise ticket prices (either just raise then or do some auction) or raise supply by doing more shows.
This is econ 101 stuff. A scalper can only get those high prices if the demand is there. You have a great example of the Yankees tickets. Obviously the demand was there and the supply was constrained by the number of seats. The scalper made the market and met the demand. What do you suggest should have happened? Should the box office continued selling $5 tickets until game time? That's IMPOSSIBLE because all those tickets would have sold out in minutes. The other solution would be to auction the tickets, but then you're paying as much as you would pay a scalper.
You act like a scalper can buy the tickets and just double the price and people will buy. That's not how it works. An event is optional for people to do. If the scalper isn't selling any tickets the price will come down. This is how I continually get tickets to weekday basketball games at below face value. If the event is sold out and demand is high (Yankee playoff game) the price will skyrocket. The scalper doesn't 'set' this price, the market does.
If the scalper can buy the tickets and sell them all at much higher prices then the event was under priced to begin with.
They are not causing any ticket scarcity unless they are destroying tickets. The venue determines the supply (plus public demand) and thus ticket scarcity.
Any events that are worth the scalpers time are events that are selling out in minutes. If an event is sitting with 1/2 it's tickets unsold until the day of, scalpers will not bother. There isn't enough demand to drive their profit. The only way a scalper makes money is when demand outstrips supply and drives up prices. So to say if there were no scalpers there might still be tickets just isn't true. I've been to many events pre-internet time and many sold out as fast as it was possible to sell tickets at a box office (and many I couldn't go to because they sold out).
The scalper could buy all of those 1/2 of the tickets left, but if the demand was that low with the old price how much demand is there going to be with the scalper trying to make some profit...hint - even less.
The only way to get rid of scalpers would be to raise tickets prices (which will lower demand) or add shows (which will raise supply). Outlawing scalping doesn't do anything except make winning the click lottery all the more important and giving people who lose that lottery no other option to see the show.
So you think a scalper is simply going to swallow the loss on a 100 tickets? A scalper who does that won't be in business very long.
I've only paid more than face value for a ticket once (got to see Michael Jordan in the playoffs!) and every other time I've attended an event that I had to buy tickets on the street I paid far less than face value. You just have to remember that once the event kicks off those tickets quickly go to zero value.
You're again ignoring the point - before scalpers got in and scooped up massive numbers of tickets and artificially inflated the price, regular fans were able to get tickets from the box office at a reasonable price for a longer period of time. Since scalpers were able to get large numbers of tickets, the pool of tickets has decreased, thus raising the price.
I've been going to events since way before the internet. Scalpers have always been around.
No one has 'artificially inflated' the price. The price has simply risen to meet demand. What's happened is that demand in general has risen. There are many more people who want to attend most every event than there is space at the venue.
The pool of tickets has not decreased, it's the same as it every was - the size of the venue. The problem is that as demand has risen, venues haven't gotten much bigger (for various reasons).
So you end up with 2 problems. Either you lock people out of attending because the lose the click lottery or you lock people out because they can't afford the ticket. If you want everyone who wants to attend be able to attend the only solutions is to add more shows.
Look at something like the shows in LV. Very few scalped tickets for those because the casinos did 2 things. They raised prices to the meet the true level of demand and then added shows.
Regardless, you can't blame the scarcity of the ticket (venue size) or the price (demand) on the scalpers. They are simply acting as the market clearing mechanism.
The artifical scarcity produced by the scalpers who make it harder for people to find the tickets is important.
Do you think scalpers are buying and burning tickets to provide scarcity? The scarcity is caused by the size of the venue. It's real scarcity and there are only so many seats to go around. So what's the best way to distribute tickets? The click lottery or through a market mechanism? Right now we have both since people can win the click lottery, or if they don't they can buy tickets at true market value.
How have the scalpers skewed the price? They are NOT creating demand. The demand is already there. They are not creating ticket scarcity (the size of the venue causes that) because they certainly want to sell all of their tickets.
At worst the scalpers are removing someone else's chance to win the click lottery and buy the tickets on the cheap. At best they are providing options for people who lose the click lottery to still see the event.
And any event that isn't sold out or takes awhile to sell out will not have a huge markup for the scalper because the obvious demand isn't there to drive it. If the demand isn't there then the final buyer can often get the tickets for LESS than face value because any tickets left in the scalpers hand equals lost money.
I'm confused why you keep saying 'artificial' demand. If a scalper sells every ticket he has, the demand was real. The demand hasn't changed at all, if anything it has gone down while the prices have gone up until they meet (the classic price/supply/demand curve). You could argue that scalpers effect supply, but even that's spurious because they want to sell all their tickets too. I don't see scalpers buying and burning a bunch of tickets to drive up prices of the tickets they have left.
And the argument that you're cutting out people who can't afford to attend is bogus. What about the people that can't stand in line for days or who miss the lottery or clicking and buying? Maybe the government should force an artist to play as many events as possible in a given city until everyone who wants to attend has been able to attend.
If all tickets were priced at market value, that would price a lot of average people out of the market. The problem comes when you have a big name act who really wants average people to be able to attend their events.
Then how do you plan on distributing a limited number of tickets? Right now I'm put out of your market because I don't have the time to click refresh over and over and over on ticket release day. It has nothing to do with letting the average person attend an event. The event will be priced at whatever the sponsor feels they can sell all the tickets for.
As for Nokia, they are, as other posters have noted, trying to hit up Apple with more stringent terms than other companies. Apple wants to be treated fairly.
Please explain the unfair terms, since to my knowledge nothing about the actual deal has been released yet. Knowing Apple they probably tried to push Nokia around. I own and like Apple products, but I hope in this case they get smacked. The level of hubris coming out of Apple has reached new all times highs (and I didn't think this was possible).
With scalpers in action, he's unable to get tickets anymore and is forced to use scalpers. Without them, he's able to get his tickets directly even a few days after they went on sale.
If scalpers are able to sell the tickets at the increased price it means that demand exceeded the supply of tickets at the fixed price. Thus, if all tickets were sold at the fixed price there would not be any tickets left soon after the tickets had gone on sale. You're assuming that if there were no scalpers there would magically be tickets left at the low, fixed price days later. The fact that the scalpers can sell tickets at such a high markup tells me that the original lower fixed price was too low and that all tickets would have sold early on.
An auction is basically what is already happening. The scalpers are acting as the auctioneers in this case. They are selling the tickets right at the level at what people are will to pay.
Then everybody will wait till last day to get a discount.
And possibly not get a ticket. I bet you would see more tickets sold before that last day than you think because it would allow each person to make their own value calculation.
ROFL. You're talking about the same government that poisoned it's own citizens during prohibition? The same government that spies on its citizens? Just checking.
No one is arguing for zero government. That would simply be anarchy. What people argue for is that we need much much less government than we have now.
furthermore, in my example above, if the people can't afford $5, they starve. you don't consider that a problem?
No, they won't starve. If the people pay the higher price someone else will come along and offer a lower price because of the profit involved. If the people don't pay the higher price for a week or two, then the new seller will simply lower their price so they are not sitting on a lot of useless product.
What you are trying to get at is a total monopoly situation where no competition can or will exist. Those are already regulated in capitalist economies.
You missed the point. The scalper did you a service by even giving you the chance to see the concert. If there were no scalpers and every ticket sold was legit then there would be no tickets on ebay and your action of missing the ticket sale means you have zero options to attend.
Would you prefer that the concert simply have been priced at the scalpers prices from the get go? At least that way there might be some tickets left when you finally got around to checking the box office.
But the thing is, if "all" the tickets hadn't been scooped up by scalpers, there would still have been legitimate tickets available through normal channels even at a date quite close to the event, so the "poor planners" could have gotten them for face price.
How do you know this? If there would have been legitimate tickets left on the day of the event then that would lead me to believe that the scalpers are going to have a hard time selling all their tickets at increased prices. The whole reason the scalpers can do what they do is that the ticket price was set too low to begin with and more people wanted to attend (and pay the original price) than there were tickets. The poor planners still would not have a ticket.
You're assuming there is something wrong with scalping in the first place. These evens are all optional to attend. If someone pays more for a ticket than face value why is that a problem? The scarcity of the ticket drove the price up and the person who paid did their own personal value calculation for the ticket.
If you're for banning scalping do you also want to ban people who sell tickets below face value? I routinely wait till a couple days before an event and pay less than face value for tickets (if you're willing to go to a weekday sporting even for example). Should that also be stopped?
How the F can they sell this phone in northern climates? I live in WI and in Feb I will frequently go outside on a nice day to take a conf call and get some fresh air. A nice day being, at least, in the upper 20's.
This most likely has to do with the battery. At cold temperatures many batteries simply stop working. Last time I was snowboarding I pulled my iPhone out to take a picture. It was 0 or below that day and the phone flashed low battery and shut down before I could get a picture snapped. In the lodge the phone warmed back up and worked fine.
You know, it happens. Apple routinely comes up as providing some of the best customer service/support among all the other computer sellers. It doesn't mean they are perfect, but in my and my friends experience Apple usually does the right thing.
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Please explain economics to me then. I have bought nearly all my tickets from scalpers at less than face value so I don't think I'm wasting money.
I'll lay out the premise so you can easily understand:
There are a fixed number of tickets (supply is inelastic thus a vertical supply curve)
[See here and here]
Demand is how many tickets will sell at a given price (demand is elastic and will change with price)
Most high demand concerts that I've seen price their tickets in such a way that there are not enough to satisfy demand at that price even if every ticket was purchased by a person going to the show. So that means at face value of the ticket demand will not be satisfied and equilibrium will not be reached. Pretty basic economics (think what happens in rent control).
To totally clear ticket demand there should be no face value and tickets should be sold using some sort of dutch auction. The scalpers are crudely filling this gap in demand at a certain price and supply by raising the price.
Dumping the scalpers will not change supply one bit (it won't suddenly add seats to the event). High demand events will still end up without enough tickets because of the artificially low prices. The difference is that if you miss the click lottery you will have no other option to find a ticket. They will be sold out.
What I think we'll eventually see is all tickets will be sold auction style. When the organizers see scalpers making this much money on under priced tickets they will want in on it. When that happens I'm sure the same people will cry about tickets costing too much but then they won't have the scalper boogeyman to blame.
Why lock the ticket to a person? You're basically putting DRM on a ticket. And show ID to buy a ticket, that's absurd.
I'll just go with that you agree that some dutch auction style selling of the tickets is the way to go. Obviously we'll get the people crying who can't afford whatever the bid price ends up being, but it will substantially cut down on the scalping.
BTW, I lived in a small town for a very long time I've never seen this sold out show where no one showed up. A link to an article that talks about how 20%-30%+ seats were empty at some show because scalpers refused (ROFL) to sell the tickets would be a big help.
The only thing recognized by scalping is that many even tickets are simply under priced to begin with. Would it make you feel better if the ticket prices were increased or if some sort of auction was used? That would finally match the ticket price with actual demand and put the scalpers out of business.
Otherwise, the artificially low prices mean that in order to see a high demand show you have to get lucky and win the click lottery. Right now we have both, win the click lottery and pay the artificially low price or if you lose you can pay market rates.
You didn't have to pay him anything. Obviously demand was high if he got you to pay 4x face value. Would you have rather not had that option at all because you lost the click lottery when tickets became available? Or maybe you just want to government to force the entertainer to do addition showings until everyone who wants to go gets to go at that great low price?
How are the limiting supply? Find me a story where the scalpers were buying and destroying tickets because that is the ONLY way they can limit the supply.
You can blame the market for increasing the price. The supply of tickets is constrained by the venue (and number of shows). As demand goes up the supply doesn't move so prices increases (we're talking basic econ 101 stuff now). It works in the opposite also, as I have taken advantage of many times.
Do you really think an event with any popularity (the only time scalpers can really sell tickets at higher prices) is going to still have tickets available at the box office the day of the show? Yeah, lets just head up to the box office the day of the Rolling Stones concert and buy some tickets. They won't be sold out and if they are it's because of those scalpers! ROFL.
Like I said before, the only way to get rid of scalpers is to raise ticket prices (either just raise then or do some auction) or raise supply by doing more shows.
This is econ 101 stuff. A scalper can only get those high prices if the demand is there. You have a great example of the Yankees tickets. Obviously the demand was there and the supply was constrained by the number of seats. The scalper made the market and met the demand. What do you suggest should have happened? Should the box office continued selling $5 tickets until game time? That's IMPOSSIBLE because all those tickets would have sold out in minutes. The other solution would be to auction the tickets, but then you're paying as much as you would pay a scalper.
You act like a scalper can buy the tickets and just double the price and people will buy. That's not how it works. An event is optional for people to do. If the scalper isn't selling any tickets the price will come down. This is how I continually get tickets to weekday basketball games at below face value. If the event is sold out and demand is high (Yankee playoff game) the price will skyrocket. The scalper doesn't 'set' this price, the market does.
If the scalper can buy the tickets and sell them all at much higher prices then the event was under priced to begin with.
They are not causing any ticket scarcity unless they are destroying tickets. The venue determines the supply (plus public demand) and thus ticket scarcity.
Any events that are worth the scalpers time are events that are selling out in minutes. If an event is sitting with 1/2 it's tickets unsold until the day of, scalpers will not bother. There isn't enough demand to drive their profit. The only way a scalper makes money is when demand outstrips supply and drives up prices. So to say if there were no scalpers there might still be tickets just isn't true. I've been to many events pre-internet time and many sold out as fast as it was possible to sell tickets at a box office (and many I couldn't go to because they sold out).
The scalper could buy all of those 1/2 of the tickets left, but if the demand was that low with the old price how much demand is there going to be with the scalper trying to make some profit...hint - even less.
The only way to get rid of scalpers would be to raise tickets prices (which will lower demand) or add shows (which will raise supply). Outlawing scalping doesn't do anything except make winning the click lottery all the more important and giving people who lose that lottery no other option to see the show.
So you think a scalper is simply going to swallow the loss on a 100 tickets? A scalper who does that won't be in business very long.
I've only paid more than face value for a ticket once (got to see Michael Jordan in the playoffs!) and every other time I've attended an event that I had to buy tickets on the street I paid far less than face value. You just have to remember that once the event kicks off those tickets quickly go to zero value.
I've been going to events since way before the internet. Scalpers have always been around.
No one has 'artificially inflated' the price. The price has simply risen to meet demand. What's happened is that demand in general has risen. There are many more people who want to attend most every event than there is space at the venue.
The pool of tickets has not decreased, it's the same as it every was - the size of the venue. The problem is that as demand has risen, venues haven't gotten much bigger (for various reasons).
So you end up with 2 problems. Either you lock people out of attending because the lose the click lottery or you lock people out because they can't afford the ticket. If you want everyone who wants to attend be able to attend the only solutions is to add more shows.
Look at something like the shows in LV. Very few scalped tickets for those because the casinos did 2 things. They raised prices to the meet the true level of demand and then added shows.
Regardless, you can't blame the scarcity of the ticket (venue size) or the price (demand) on the scalpers. They are simply acting as the market clearing mechanism.
Do you think scalpers are buying and burning tickets to provide scarcity? The scarcity is caused by the size of the venue. It's real scarcity and there are only so many seats to go around. So what's the best way to distribute tickets? The click lottery or through a market mechanism? Right now we have both since people can win the click lottery, or if they don't they can buy tickets at true market value.
How have the scalpers skewed the price? They are NOT creating demand. The demand is already there. They are not creating ticket scarcity (the size of the venue causes that) because they certainly want to sell all of their tickets.
At worst the scalpers are removing someone else's chance to win the click lottery and buy the tickets on the cheap. At best they are providing options for people who lose the click lottery to still see the event.
And any event that isn't sold out or takes awhile to sell out will not have a huge markup for the scalper because the obvious demand isn't there to drive it. If the demand isn't there then the final buyer can often get the tickets for LESS than face value because any tickets left in the scalpers hand equals lost money.
I'm confused why you keep saying 'artificial' demand. If a scalper sells every ticket he has, the demand was real. The demand hasn't changed at all, if anything it has gone down while the prices have gone up until they meet (the classic price/supply/demand curve). You could argue that scalpers effect supply, but even that's spurious because they want to sell all their tickets too. I don't see scalpers buying and burning a bunch of tickets to drive up prices of the tickets they have left.
And the argument that you're cutting out people who can't afford to attend is bogus. What about the people that can't stand in line for days or who miss the lottery or clicking and buying? Maybe the government should force an artist to play as many events as possible in a given city until everyone who wants to attend has been able to attend.
Then how do you plan on distributing a limited number of tickets? Right now I'm put out of your market because I don't have the time to click refresh over and over and over on ticket release day. It has nothing to do with letting the average person attend an event. The event will be priced at whatever the sponsor feels they can sell all the tickets for.
Please explain the unfair terms, since to my knowledge nothing about the actual deal has been released yet. Knowing Apple they probably tried to push Nokia around. I own and like Apple products, but I hope in this case they get smacked. The level of hubris coming out of Apple has reached new all times highs (and I didn't think this was possible).
If scalpers are able to sell the tickets at the increased price it means that demand exceeded the supply of tickets at the fixed price. Thus, if all tickets were sold at the fixed price there would not be any tickets left soon after the tickets had gone on sale. You're assuming that if there were no scalpers there would magically be tickets left at the low, fixed price days later. The fact that the scalpers can sell tickets at such a high markup tells me that the original lower fixed price was too low and that all tickets would have sold early on.
An auction is basically what is already happening. The scalpers are acting as the auctioneers in this case. They are selling the tickets right at the level at what people are will to pay.
And possibly not get a ticket. I bet you would see more tickets sold before that last day than you think because it would allow each person to make their own value calculation.
ROFL. You're talking about the same government that poisoned it's own citizens during prohibition? The same government that spies on its citizens? Just checking.
No one is arguing for zero government. That would simply be anarchy. What people argue for is that we need much much less government than we have now.
No, they won't starve. If the people pay the higher price someone else will come along and offer a lower price because of the profit involved. If the people don't pay the higher price for a week or two, then the new seller will simply lower their price so they are not sitting on a lot of useless product.
What you are trying to get at is a total monopoly situation where no competition can or will exist. Those are already regulated in capitalist economies.
You missed the point. The scalper did you a service by even giving you the chance to see the concert. If there were no scalpers and every ticket sold was legit then there would be no tickets on ebay and your action of missing the ticket sale means you have zero options to attend.
Would you prefer that the concert simply have been priced at the scalpers prices from the get go? At least that way there might be some tickets left when you finally got around to checking the box office.
How do you know this? If there would have been legitimate tickets left on the day of the event then that would lead me to believe that the scalpers are going to have a hard time selling all their tickets at increased prices. The whole reason the scalpers can do what they do is that the ticket price was set too low to begin with and more people wanted to attend (and pay the original price) than there were tickets. The poor planners still would not have a ticket.
You're assuming there is something wrong with scalping in the first place. These evens are all optional to attend. If someone pays more for a ticket than face value why is that a problem? The scarcity of the ticket drove the price up and the person who paid did their own personal value calculation for the ticket.
If you're for banning scalping do you also want to ban people who sell tickets below face value? I routinely wait till a couple days before an event and pay less than face value for tickets (if you're willing to go to a weekday sporting even for example). Should that also be stopped?
And those same nerds are the ones who are paying for pr0n in the app store when it can be found for free all over the internet?
This most likely has to do with the battery. At cold temperatures many batteries simply stop working. Last time I was snowboarding I pulled my iPhone out to take a picture. It was 0 or below that day and the phone flashed low battery and shut down before I could get a picture snapped. In the lodge the phone warmed back up and worked fine.
1984 is probably banned in most public schools. Can't have anything getting in the way of government/corporate indoctrination.
You know, it happens. Apple routinely comes up as providing some of the best customer service/support among all the other computer sellers. It doesn't mean they are perfect, but in my and my friends experience Apple usually does the right thing.