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iPhone's Liquid Sensors Can Be Triggered By Wintertime Use
An anonymous reader writes "The Polish website Moje Jabluszko ran an experiment that proves the poor reliability of the liquid contact indicators (original, in Polish) installed by Apple in the iPhone. They performed three different tests to challenge the LCIs, which they recorded as a movie. They decided to mimic regular usage of the iPhone — meaning, you go outside where it could be cold or warm, then move inside in a building where temperature might be dramatically different, but still within covered conditions. So, they placed the iPhone in its box for one hour outside at -11 C, then moved it inside at room temperature for 24 hours. They repeated the experiment 3 times, and after the third cycle they could show that the LCI located in the audio jack plug started turning red! This is a clear proof that LCIs are not reliable and could turn red while the iPhone has been used under the defined environmental requirements defined by Apple. Here, only the condensing water could have been in contact with the sensor. In other words, even moving in and out during regular winter time will make you iPhone LCI turn red!" (In the tech specs for the iPhone, Apple rates the non-operating temperature range as -20 to 45 C.)
We do a lot of service on macbooks at work, and there's been times when we've taking a unit in for service that "won't turn on" and the user "has no idea why", only to find out they're drippy inside, and none of the liquid sensors are tripped.
LCI are just a way for companies to worm out of actually delivering on warranties.
[quote]defined environmental requirements defined by apple[/quote]
hope that worked.
also, redundant sentence is redundant.
The operating temperatures of 0 to 35C are completely held within the non-operating range of -4 to 45C. Sounds like a trick way of saying the phone isn't actually meant to work.
Taking something made of metal indoors and outdoors with a big temperature gradient is just *begging* for humidity to condense on it.
As anyone who wears glasses could probably tell you, if you go outside for a while, then come back inside (mimic the conditions of the 'experiment'), the glasses are highly likely to fog up with condensation. Is this not a liquid?
Sounds to me like the sensors are working just fine.
I've built up so much character I have an alter-ego
Move to California.
Wow - why do they even sell them here in Canada, then? Am I not supposed to take it outside below -20C? That's almost every night for half the winter! In fact, though, I've had my iPod Touch (1st Gen) for about 3 years, and I take and *use* it outdoors in -30 to -20 temperatures all the time - no problem. It's actually survived a dunking in the bathtub, too.
? syntax error
I wonder how much condensation has to do with it.
Its freezing here in chicago and walking from the bus to the lincoln park conservatory, my camera gets cold enough that it instantly condenses when i get inside the conservatory.
When changing temperatures that drastically, I cant help but wonder the non liquid stress those indicators get
Im a troll because I disagree with you.
As a confirmed and committed Apple loather, I have to say HA!
But I can also read. The line directly after the temperature limits says "Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing"
Noncondensing. Even the damned summary claims "only the condensing water could have been in contact with the sensor."
Goodness, look at that, saying "the iPhone has been used under the defined environmental requirements defined by Apple" is like saying it's some big conspiracy that running over it with a car breaks it, as long as it's been within -20 and +45C. You can't just pick ONE environmental limit to stay within and damn all the rest.
Noncondensing, people.
While it's true that some portion of your customers are going to lie when they say there has been no water intrusion, including, at extra cost a device aimed at proving that your customer is lying on every device is unfair. Let alone close to the external extremedies of the device.
Here's a prediction: First they will deny the problem, and try to cast doubt on the testing methodolgy, then they will acknowledge the problem but claim that it only occurs in a very limited set of circumstances and offer restitution but only for those who complain loudest. Then they'll make a minor change that doesn't actually fix the problem and claim it is fixed (oh and raise prices to cover this change). They'll stall at every step. This seems to be right out of the Apple customer service manual, and they're not the only ones (but they are some of the worst). No different to scratchable iPod minis, or cracked laptop cases. Fucking horseshit.
But it's Apple, it just works, right? Come on fanbois, mod me into oblivion. I don't give a shit.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
I know that the sensors turn red or a different color when they get wet, is this because they litmus paper? I have thought that they could change colors because of the pH of water. Does anybody know exactly what causes the color change. What the sensor is made of.
Doctors do Massage in Longview WA now, who knew?
Apple's specs DO allow those temperatures ranges. However, they clearly state that the humidity must be non-condensing. Since the phone is being abruptly moved from extremely cold to warm locations, and the resultant condensing humidity is the cause, it seems pretty obvious that the damage is occurring from mis-use, not from use in spec-approved conditions.
So where's the story? Water is water. It doesn't matter if it's condensation or spilled coffee, the result is damage to the electronics that is no fault of Apple's. They can't protect their devices against every retard who doesn't have enough common sense to not expose their iPhones to environmental extremes.
Also, the tech specs only say that the iPhone will WORK at -20 C, it makes no mention of suddenly exposing it to warm, moist air.
The question is whether the LCI's can be triggered by exposure to condensation, moisture, etc., which won't actually harm the device. Clearly those LCI's are more sensitive than the device they're attached to to water damage. If the manufacturer refuses to honor a warranty because of a LCI positive reading, but the damage to the device wasn't in fact caused by water, then you ought to be able to sue them for breach of contract.
I had a cell phone battery fail (because of a defect), but the manufacturer wouldn't replace it because the LCI was tripped on the phone. The failure mode wasn't one that would have been caused by water damage.
While this might be viewed as morally reprehensible, but so is
voiding the warranty for a little bit of condensation.
If you put a little bit of hairspray on the sensor, would it trigger it?
And if it doesn't, then would it protect the sensor from condensation?
Is this unique to the iphone or will some/most/all cell phones have their LCI tripped if treated in this way?
So, Apple's LCI can trip unexpectedly...
A few years back, I dropped my Motorola RAZR V3 into a hot tub. It was submerged about 3-5 seconds before I got it back out.
The phone was dead, as expected - but the LCI did not "go off."
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
The purpose of the sensor is not to detect water. The purpose of the sensor is to give Apple and the insurance company a technical strawman to point to as to why you're not gonna get the warranty replacement you've morally and legally got coming.
"We're not honoring the warranty because the machine says you've been bad," sounds sbetter than "We don't wanna honor your warranty 'cause that would cost us money to live up to our obligations."
It's the same function polygraphs, e-meters and other "lie detectors" serve. They're technically nonsense, but they give the organization an excuse you can't refute since it's nonsense in the first place.
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Come on now, ya have to know apples stuff is condensation proof :) Thats just not possible,and if condensation is thinking on doing it Steve Jobs will scream at to not too heheheh
Jack of all trades,master of none
This just means they need more separation between the electrodes of their submersion sensor. Which is a problem in a small device.
To sense water reliably, while ignoring condensation, you need contacts some distance apart and some distance from a surface. The distances needs to be bigger than a water droplet. The size of water droplets is limited by surface tension. About 0.3 inch is probably big enough. In a tiny device, getting an air space that big is tough.
And in the very next line of the specs it says "Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing", while the article summary clearly states the testers caused condensation to trip the sensors.
You can debate the appropriateness of the spec, but you ought to at least read it before claiming parts don't operate according to spec.
In other words, even moving in and out during regular winter time will make you iPhone LCI turn red!
Yes, Apple is doing something that lots of companies do! But you'll never hear reports about those other companies doing it, because they aren't Apple!!
... and then they built the supercollider.
What has become of my beloved Slashdot?! Where are the knowledgeable nerds?
Here we are 50 posts in. We've had bitching about Apple's sneakiness. We've had bitching about foggy glasses. We've had bitching about condensation in general.
What we haven't had is someone who knows how to AVOID condensation. How do you take a piece of kit from cold outside to warm inside without having moisture appear on it? Is it even possible?
1)Apple sells this phone in northerly climates (Canada for one)
2)Apple specs that it can be (when turned off) in environments down to -20 Celsius
3)I don't think anyone will argue with me that the nominal purpose of a cell phone, is as a communication device that a person CAN CARRY AROUND WITH THEM.
Combining these 3 facts, I think a reasonable person would conclude that they can take the phone in and out of the house with them when it is warmer than -20 C outside.
Thus, It seems reasonable that the warranty should still apply when this "reasonable person" has taken the phone in and out of the house at, oh, say -15 C
However, this test shows that doing so can trigger the humidity sensor, thereby voiding the warranty. Even though the person has not done anything unreasonable.
The think that I think some of you (who live in warmer climates?) are missing is this: the environment changes used in this test simulate normal daily use for those of us who live in colder climates.
Also, I doubt this issue is limited to iPhones: I had at least one motorola phone's warranty voided by the water sensor, even though I was unaware of having ever gotten the phone wet. This article could finally explain that issue as well...
It clearly stated that the non-operating temperature range is -20 to 45 C, so you would expect that if the iphone is subjected to this temperature range, is *will* become 'non-operating'.
Why is it that most of the people that I encounter seem to have been shat from the Sphincter of Mediocrity?
Get an ipad and shut up.
Never buy the lifetime warranty!
You don't want to lose your life over a consumer product!
The liquid sensor is right to go off, as it should since many electronic gadgets/laptops were destroyed this way.
Really what is the problem?
Your typical keyboard is quite waterproof. I've spilled coffee on mine several times. Into the dishwasher it goes. I let it dry for about a week and then it's just fine. (Yes I have a backup keyboard). I have done this several times now and the keyboard still works fine.
I hate to say it, because it's also a scam, but this won't matter if you buy an ADP plan that includes spills/immersion (SquareTrade sells them for all kinds of phones).
It doesn't matter who you buy it from though, if they know all you have to do to force them to fix it is to pay a $50 deductible, they are less likely to claim mishandling.
It's not fair, but they know if you don't have that insurance, you have no choice but to buy a new phone.
Apple wants you to buy expensive waterproof sleeves for your iPhones so your warranty wont get void! Apple gets revenues from customers buying waterproof sleeves!
My dad had a similar experience with a Sony water resistant camera however the result were quite opposite. It was about 80-90 degrees out and he dunked the camera in 50 degree water hoping to get a close up of some trout. That ended up condensing the air inside the lens fogging it up on the inside. When he contacted Sony about it they were very interested in getting the camera to investigate the problem and fix it on future models as well as replacing it at no cost.
Are there any cases of people actually being refused service because one of these sensors has been tripped?
I think maybe they should put the USERS outside at -11C
By the way, expressing common measurements like this, in units that are so stupidly useless is my main beef with the metric system. WTF is a negative degree in this context?
and before you mod me down - (Romer didn't like using negative numbers in his weather logbook EITHER!)
Don't buy an iPhone, problem solved.
Sure... the HCI in the audio jack could change color. That's why there is supposedly a SECOND HCI on the inside of the unit. They'll open it up to examine the second one as well... 2 spots.. relatively far apart... and the 2nd one would probably be less subject to condensation.
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
I can't quite figure out if this is flamebait, or if I'm just the only person who can't make a connection between liquid sensors in a consumer electronic device and a dystopian police state.
Orwell wrote a couple other things besides 1984. Just sayin'. . .
so, i haven't noticed a comment stating that every cell phone you've ever owned probably had the same sensor inside. The triggering of that sensor voided it's warranty as well.
I have queried Apple Support in Singapore about this.
This is my post on another forum on 12-01-2010
The $350 stated below is in SGD.
---
It is official. TS got pwned.
Just talked to an Apple Support person at 800-186-1087. My comments in [ ].
She is very firm that:
1. LSI turn pink/red means no warranty. Even for non water related damages 1 year later. No Warranty.
2. They won't do anything if LSI turn pink/red, and the phone is perfectly ok, and no trace of water.
You can continue to use your phone as usual, just no more warranty.
3. You cannot return the product to get a refund if you don't agree to this policy.
[and they didn't even state point 1 (above) clearly in their own "Water damage is not covered by warranty" page]
4. Out of warranty "repairs" is a flat fee of $350 to change the whole phone.
Even for any minor issues like a button drop off.
She said that
* the LSI system is a world wide system used by everyone. It is not an Apple invention.
[don't blame Apple for this unfair policy. Everyone does it!]
* there is a certain threshold for the LSI to trigger, but she cannot say what is the threshold.
[so it is up to everyone to speculate what is the threshold, and how reliable
is the LSI thingy (false positive rates?)]
* the indicators are inside the phone.
[potato chips inside an open bowl will not turn soggy! they are inside the bowl!]
So victims will need to go to Small Claims Tribunals.
http://app.subcourts.gov.sg/sct/index.aspx
For those that seems to be more protective towards Apple than the consumers, don't worry.
True water damage will show up with other evidences when you open up the chassis. There are another 2 LSI indicators inside the chassis. Water will leave stains in the interior of the chassis. Singaporeans are rich enough to prefer paying $350, then to go through the hassle of submitting documents and attending court hearings. So I think Apple can laugh all the way to the bank by being firm.
For consumers, your argument is weak if you show someone a damaged phone and red LSI at the same time. But they don't care if you show a dry and functional phone and a red LSI. So it is LLST all the way.
----
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/showthread.php?t=2629267
This is actually already fairly well "documented," that LCIs aren't what one would call reliable. This happens a lot with other types of phones' LCIs - for example, I was able to change my liquid detection strip in my Nokia, albeit just a corner of the square, after having my phone sit on the bathroom shelf while I showered. Sure, a steam-filled room might not be the BEST place for a phone, but it shouldn't void my warranty either. And no surprise that Apple wouldn't use anything beyond the same detection methods, especially when they get to cry foul and turn a blind eye to your issues because a tiny piece of paper turned red. They're going to get you any way they can, and this is one of those "that's how they get you" ways.
If the sensor is reading a false positive, can't you take it in to get replaced...If enough people do this maybe they will re-think even using it....
I happen to sweat a decent amount. In the summer, if I keep my phone in my pocket, it will trip the sensor. What am I supposed to do to prevent that from happening?
If I can not smoke in heaven, then I shall not go. -- Mark Twain
Ok, I understand the somewhat conspiracy-theory concern over the fact that the sensors are too sensitive and give false positives. And frankly, I agree with you. But how is Apple actually using the sensor? Are there reported cases of Apple refusing warranty over false positives from the sensor? Or do they simply use it as an indicator when debugging and looking for possible problems? If they use it as the final answer, then that is wrong, but if they use it as only one piece of a larger puzzle, that seems completely reasonable.
Very true. For instance, by applying methods first outlined in the paper "Equidistant Letter Sequences in the Book of Genesis" (Statistical Science 9: 429-438) to Orwell's Animal Farm, I discovered the following statement appears no less than 16 times!
"Android good, iPhone Bad!"
What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
I live in a coastal humid and mediocre temperature weather area... I have *never* gotten my phone right into water... not even in the rain; I don't use them in the rain.
And yet every single battery-area 'got it wet indicator' that turns red when you get it wet.... yep.. every single one would be triggered and appear like I got it wet or something. I'm not even talking about putting em in sweaty or wet clothes or something, either... I'm pretty careful and this happens usually within the first couple months of owning a phone.
If you keep the thing in your pocket there shouldn't be nearly that much of a problem, you would have to regularly be talking on the thing for an hour at a time in cold weather to reproduce this.
£342m of mobiles dropped in toilet
Brits drop 855,000 mobile phones into the toilet each year
Tuesday, 05, Jun 2007 09:15
http://www.myfinances.co.uk/insurance/news/-342m-of-mobiles-dropped-in-toilet-$474415.htm
Britons are dropping 855,000 mobile phone handsets into the toilet every year - worth a collective £342 million.
But that is just a fraction of the 4.5 million handsets lost and damaged every year, making mobile phone insurance more useful than many say.
Silly Slashdotter.
Orwell only had Airstrip One not some strip that detected water.
As a technician at a rival company to ATT in the US, I can tell you that the LDI or LCI is usually just that, an indicator. We see one of those tripped and then dig deeper into the device to see if there is further evidence that the device has been exposed to abnormal conditions, like a toilet. Some of the non-full service stores may not look so deep, but all of ours will take a device completely out of it's housing before making the determination. We're really not out to screw the customer, unless he's a douche.
Are you saying the iPhone won't work if you're inside a whale? Can clergymen's daughters get a discount?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
as the operators were starting up, Orange came along as a new entrant. The monthly charge was a little bit more expensive, but they did have beautifully simple contracts (I paid £30 a month, I got x many minutes and if I didn't go over that, my bill was £30). That £30 also included a quite wonderful warranty. If ANYTHING happened to your phone, it broke, it got lost, you'd gone swimming with it in your pocket etc - you just called them up (and they answered pretty much immediately) and with no quibble, the next day there'd be a courier at the door with a replacement phone to swap out (or give if the phone had gone AWOL).
It all went wrong about 5 years back (roughly) when all manner of weird policies started appearing - in my case my p800 broke, which seemingly required their smart phone dept to authorize the return, except neither I or the rep I was calling could actually find out why it took a month for them to accept the phone in my hand was dead etc - so I left them after 5 or 6 happy years.
I'd love to know why they changed. Might have been their takeover, might have been the policy was costing them too much money, might have been they wanted to just lower their up-front prices to appear competitive. There's just something rather lovely about a contract where you know "Every month I will be paying £x, and as long as I pay £x a month I will never be more than 24 hours without a phone, whatever happens."
unless he's a douche bag. There, fixed it for you. And like you are a rival. You can't compete, face it -- douche bag!
Can't you just dry it out using the warm glow of a mac users self smugness?
Would it be feasible to replace a defective humidity detector with an aftermarket component that performs the function more accurately and with fewer false positives?
I am not a lawyer, but according to Magnuson-Moss, this seems like it should be within your rights.
There are no karma whores, only moderation johns
Yes.
The Liquid Contact Indicators all indicate when in contact with liquid.
You realize condensation is a liquid, right?
Liquid Contact Indicators indicate contact with liquid.
Condensation is liquid.
It takes a fair bit to turn the indicator.
People living in cold climates usually have enough experience to understand that electronic devices are best kept in an inside pocket.
The Indicator is used as an obvious sign that water damage may have occurred.
If you ask a support droid about it over the phone, of course they are going to tell you it voids the warranty.
They have no way of examining the phone to confirm, so they have to err on the side of most likely case - which is water damage.
However; I have taken more than one Iphone that I knew for a fact had been abused and had likely water damage to the Apple Store and had it replaced under warranty.
The tragically hip chick at the "Genius Bar" listened to the problem description, ran a diagnostic which confirmed hardware malfunction that explained the problem I described, checked the LCI and advised that she'd have to crack the case to determine if the water exposure contributed to the failure, and took the phone into the back for a moment.
Two minutes later, she came back and announced that there was no internal sign of water damage, and handed me a new phone and a work order to sign.
Everything worked exactly as it should.
Now I'm not a fanboi by any means - I'm just the PC Slob who has to truck all of my employer's mac crap in for repair when they manage to break it.
You couldn't get me to switch from my Win Mobile phone to an Iphone for anything.
We've had an unusually high number of Iphone failures - and that's even discounting the two guys who I know are abusive to their gear.
Still, with the Iphone I can get immediate resolution at the Apple Store.
I've been prepared to eat the repair cost numerous times - it's often clearly our fault rather than a defect - but have never had to do so.
The Stepford feel of an Apple Store still creeps me out, but the folks at the Genius Bar are typically technically competent to the level required.
Anymore - that's high praise.
The only time they've failed me is when they offered to try to recover the data from a failed partition for $99.
Figuring in the cost of my time, that would be a bargain, so I jumped on it.
Got a call from them the next day advising that they were unable to recover anything.
I was able to get it all back myself except for a couple of junk files, but it did take several hours.
There was no charge, so they just wasted a little bit of my time.
Overall, I can live with that.
No, it should be
"iPhone good, Android better!"
"Do not taunt Happy Fun LCI". ;)
Big whoop, they can trip the headphone jack indicator.
What about the ones on the actual inside of the phone? You know, the ones on the damageable components?
Untrue. My phone's sensor was visibly a different color within two months of my buying a brand new phone. I think it's caused less by usage outdoors and more by condensation that happens bringing it indoors after I've been outside (in colder weather) for a while. I've had no problems with my phone so far, but it sucks to know that the company won't honor the warranty (which is actually going to be up before the summer anyways) if something does happen to go wrong with it before the warranty is up (I know this because I asked them about it when I first noticed the sensor was a different color, hoping to get some peace of mind about it and instead all I got was "you're on your own").
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
A particular danger to electronic items, regardless of the stated operating humidity range, is condensation. When an electronic item is moved from a cold place (eg garage, car, shed, an air conditioned space in the tropics) to a warm humid place (house, outside tropics), condensation may coat circuit boards and other insulators, leading to short circuit inside the equipment. Such short circuits may cause substantial permanent damage if the equipment is powered on before the condensation has evaporated. A similar condensation effect can often be observed when a person wearing glasses comes in from the cold. It is advisable to allow electronic equipment to acclimatise for several hours, after being brought in from the cold, before powering on. The inverse is also true.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Half a dozen posters here have said "This causes water to condensate inside the phone" or something equivalent.
Please don't do this.
"Condensate" is a noun, not a verb. The verb is "condense." Using "condensate" in this context is just silly, since we have a perfectly good word in the form of "condense".
In before "verbing a noun is perfectly cromulent."
Yet another generic phone story slapped as "iPhone" to improve SEO hits. The little stickers with powdered red dye is them have been in every phone I've ever seen for almost 10 years now.
from 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
to 45 2F 6E 40 3C DF 10 71 4E 41 DF AA 25 7D 31 3F
Has anyone had a sensor turn red from normal use and then had their phone subsequently break and then been refused warranty service?
*chirp* *chirp* *chirp*