I strongly suggest that you read Parasite Rex by Carl Zimmer. Hopefully my point will be much clearer to you then.:)
I'm not saying that fight is all there is, but the evidence presented by parasitologists and zoologists suggest that cooperation and competition go hand in hand (cooperate with your fellow group-mates, so that you can out-compete the other group in the same territory -- perhaps even wage war on them. Baboons and chimpanzees do fight each other, y'know).
Also, the fact that we can prevent the spread of certain diseases, like SARS, doesn't change the rules of biology at all, anymore than a primate who hollers when a tiger or some other big predator approaches does. Humans don't have a monopoly on communicating threats.
To say that humans are "above evolutionary pressures" only demonstrates a lack of understanding on what evolution is. If the environment decides to throw a ten kilometer diameter asteroid at Earth and wipes out humanity, then it is pretty obvious that we did not yet evolve enough to deal with this disastrous change in environment!
Provided of course that we don't destroy ourselves first, which would be a demonstration of how humans can place evolutionary pressure on themselves.
You are thinking in the macro, not the micro. Multicellular organisms have contended with bacterial infections, viruses, and other parasites for millions upon millions of years. The host organism is directly competing with these smaller, more adaptable organisms for the resources that the host spent the energy to attain.
The more successful parasites (like the common cold, the flu, fleas, etc.) don't have to kill the host. They use the host's body as an incubator for the parasite's reproductive needs. And, given enough time, the parasites can become part of the organism itself...a symbiotic cooperative relationship can develop (mitochondria may have been the result of such a process). But, obviously, not all organisms "choose" cooperation in their evolutionary development.
There is a species of mice (or is it a marsupial? can't remember) that takes the "Until death do us part" literally.
Humans are not monogamous by the way...they are polygynous!
What animal practices gang-rape?
A species of bottle-nosed dolphins has been observed where the males travel in pods, harassing female pods, and singling out a female and kidnapping her for their evil nefarious purposes. Just like humans sometimes do!
Humans possess a lot of traits exhibited by many animal species it seems. In that respect, they are the "pinnacle" of evolution's creation.
All of them do, given their ability to sense their surroundings.
> What animal can split the atom?
The sun splits atoms all the time. You don't have to be an animal to do that!
> What animal is loved by God?
I recall a passage in the old testament about how God tried to force the Egyptians to adopt frogs and grasshoppers...so it's gotta be them!
> What animal can build an engine?
Funny, I know millions of humans can't build engines either. But I have seen hamster powered bicycles!
> What animal can love?
Ever seen elephants visit the graves of their loved ones year after year? Ever own a dog?
> What animal can speak?
Quite a few parrots and other bird species are quite capable of speech. Remember that parrot that can speak the names of objects or name an action?
> What animal can appreciate beauty?
Peahens lusting after the prettiest peacocks.
There is a cool species of birds that builds multi-story birdsnests to impress the female birds of the same species. Complete with porch entrances, awnings, the whole works! The best house-builders get the most bird tail.
> What animal can write poetry?
Chimpanzee sign language could be considered poetry. It's probably better than the post-modern crap published in recent years.
> What animal other than man is the utter pinnacle of all creation?
Toxoplasma Gondii...it's the master of humans AND cats! It's the coolest parasite out there...
That site is the absolute BEST discussion forum I have ever seen in my life. Take a look at their rules/policies, and you'll quickly see why. And the moderation is extremely fair. I have not seen ANY evidence of abuse or hypocrisy anywhere on that site.
Quite frankly, it frequently puts Slashdot to shame in the quality of content and signal-to-noise ratio.
Still, I find Slashdot an amusing place. Sure, most Slashdot folk don't have a clue about home theater hardware hacking, but hey, it's fun!
So far, the HTF has not been threatened by any lawsuits that I know of, even though they deal with movie studios and their employees.
Not in the Promise of Sleep, but it does mention that sex, even at night, seems to have no effect on sleep patterns. In other words, hot sex won't won't change how well you sleep that night.
Hmmm...that sounds pretty dangerous. Also, I'm pretty sure it was Thomas Edison (the inventor guy) and not Jefferson who attempted this schedule. I could be wrong, but I do know that Edison attempted the same schedule, but his assistants witnessed him dozing for hours when he was supposedly "napping" for 20 minutes!
Now, the claim about the 1.5 to 2 hours of REM sleep being required (and not the typical 8 hours minimum) per day is interesting, but does contradict the research conclusions found in the Promise of Sleep book. Lack of REM didn't affect the subjects, when they were awakened repeatedly during REM sleep, but allowed the total 8 hour requirement of "deep-wave" and other non-REM stages of sleep.
Also, I think this system is extremely dangerous for long driving trips. What happens when you've been driving for more than 2 hours? Hitting REM sleep would likely be involuntary if you adjust to the author's schedule, and will undoubtedly be fatal!
Good advice. Unfortunately, I could never get into the napping thing. I always end up too wide awake a few hours lately, and never get back to sleep.
Damn those weekends...going to sleep at 2 or 3 am Friday and Saturday nightmesses up my sleep rhythm for the rest of the week. I'll blame computers...yeah that's the ticket!:)
Yeah...college students have it bad! Odd how many early sleep studies were skewed because they used sleep-deprived college students! ("Hey, these students sleep 10-11 hours a night for 2 weeks, then they miraculously only need 8 hours a night." -- hence the discovery of sleep debt)
Fortunately, most college students can't afford to drive a car, or can't afford to commute. So, they sleep on the bus.
Truckers, salesmen, executives, and blue collar workers likely are at highest risk of sleeping at the wheel.
Yes I totally agree. It is such an obvious fact that people just can't believe it's true. Stupid!
I already posted a comment detailing how to tell if you're sleep deprived...it's simple, really. Too simple for the media to report, apparently. Dumbasses.
I can't believe this...no one seems to understand the costly effects of sleep deprivation. The article doesn't even point out that people shouldn't be so stupid as to drive when drowsy. Here's a clue. Take two, they're small!
Sleep deprivation, that results in drowsiness during repetitive activities as driving and assembly line work, is one of the leading causes of car accidents at night. Mix in a small amount of alcohol, and you have a potentially lethal situation, even when you're very much under the legal blood alcohol limit. Alcohol + sleep debt = ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL.
The problem is, people are too stupid to realize they are sleep deprived. Here's a clue:
1) Complaints that they are always tired (then don't drive at night. Are they stupid? YES!).
2) Do the Stanford sleep test...hold a spoon or loud toy out over the floor while sitting down. Have a timer or clock nearby. Close your eyes. If you fall asleep, you will hear the object hit the floor. If it fell 5 minutes or less after your eyes were closed, you have serious sleep deprivation and probably shouldn't be driving for long periods AT ALL. USE COMMON SENSE FOLKS! If you fall asleep and don't hear anything, you are in serious trouble.
3) Get plenty of sleep. Some people need eight hours of sleep a night, others need more or less. Also, sleep debt is CUMULATIVE. If you require 8 hours of sleep a night, but have only slept 4 hours a night for a week, then you have 4*7=28 hours of sleep debt. The more sleep debt you have, the fast you drop the object in point 2 above. I believe there is a sleep debt maximum (40 hours debt?) but the research is inconclusive.
This should be common sense folks...but unfortunately the media lacks the vision to let the public know these simple facts.
References, easily looked up at Amazon.com:
The Promise of Sleep, by William C. Dement.
The Sleep Thieves, by Stanley Coren
*sigh* It only takes a few minutes to learn all this, folks. Anyone want to buy a book on Hell and Handbaskets?
I strongly suggest you read "How We Believe : The Search for God in an Age of Science" by Michael Shermer. Look it up on Amazon.com, has complete arguments on the existence of God and theories of why "we" believe in one.
I find your "research" conjures up arguments based on pseudo-science...they are not even close to being scientific I'm afraid (I don't mean to insult you, it's just that many people are not informed as to what science really is, and are easily mislead by many creatism arguments disguised as "science").
I don't see why this is a big deal...think of it as training for the real world, where you will not always have a chance to use what YOU want.
Besides, you will a learn a lot this way...everyone at slashdot values cross-platform development right? And what better way to learn than by coding your project in code-warrior, and porting it to g++, or vice-versa?
Instead of making this a religious issue, treat this as a real learning opportunity for yourself. You will become a much better programmer for it!
It seems a lot of you have missed the point about the question posed by the poster...the question isn't "What should the Linux GUI be like?" but rather "What should we change about the Open-Source model to allow user feedback on user interfaces?"
Actually, I think the article should've been posted as an "Ask Slashdot" instead of being a "news item" (which has been discussed before, as someone has already pointed out).
It is a good question. From what I have seen, some open-source projects openly discourage regular users from submitting suggestions on user interface improvements [flamebait] (you GNOME/KDE/Linux zealots have only yourselves to blame...;) [/flamebait]
Other OS projects are structured such that only developers/programmers have any say as to the design of the system. Obscure mailing lists with awkward majordomo commands certainly make it difficult for the average joe to participate, and it doesn't help when the rest of the participants are developers who have no sympathy for the poor guy because he can't "hack it".
I'm hoping great projects such as SourceForge(is that right?) stuff will open the communication lines, and blast the doors held closed by these "open source is for everybody, but to heck with the user" hypocrites.
Open source has to be truly open-source for everyone...not just the programmers, who, by necessity, have a very narrow few of the system they are designing. In fact, when you allow the people who will actually use the program in, we may actually get around this "the source is everything" mentality and gravitate to an "Open Design Project", where everyone works together ont he specification, design, AND coding of the system.
Too allow the people without the programming expertise to participate, you'll need to add an extra cycle or two to the phases of an Open Source project...requirements gathering (you must ask what users want) and requirements verification (is this what the user wants?).
Excuse my ramblings...I just think that the term Open Source is just too limiting.
If you can make sense of this, paraphrase it so that my befuddled brain will know what I am talking about.:)
You have some good points there. I agree, open source projects often put far too much emphasize on code over design (the early versions of GNOME and Enlightenment spring to mind).
I think the only real solution to removing jerks from an open source projects is simply to never let them in. Rigorous peer review can help with this. For example, if someone wants to join an open source project, they have to cite work done on previous projects AND there should be a "dossier" on the person himself. This dossier would contain an assessment of the person's abilities, especially the ability to cooperate in a group project, written by members of other projects the programmer has worked on before.
In essence, it is like a resume written by your peers.
Of course, if the person has never worked on an open source project before (or does not have a dossier), a probation period could be in effect, similar to what many corporations practice when getting new hirees.
Hugs and kisses to those who can improve on my little suggestion!
I'm wondering how the wacko cults are handling this...the world hasn't ended. Armageddon hasn't happened.
And I still can't believe that my apartment managers decided do shut down the elevator before midnight "To show that management is prepared for Y2K".
Please! In this supposed time and age, why do people insist on believing outright fallacies...UFO's, alien abductions, the Aurora Project , Y2K bug, armageddon, demons, virgin Mary visions...the list goes on and on.
What will be the new demons of the next century? Solar flares wiping out life on Earth? The conjunction of the planets coming, I believe, in May, causing major natural catastrophies (like, all the volcanoes on Earth erupting at once...talk about extra fibre in your diet!). Or maybe there'll be a widespread and deadly flu epidemic...Or perhaps the world will be destroyed sometime in 2040 like some nostradamus enthusiasts believe.
Choose your poison...but hey, maybe it'll make you rich!
At any rate, hear's a toast to those of us who aren't hiding in makeshift bunkers!
According to my financial advisor, it is "illegal" for Canadians to participate in an IPO. Canadians have to wait until the company is public before they can buy any shares.
It really really sucks. I think those VA Linux IPO offer letters sent out to Canadian developers may in fact be asking Canadians to break the law!
Or maybe I am missing something here? Obviously I have not read the letter, as I don't qualify. Doesn't VA Linux have a legal department?
Slashdot Mirror
I suggest going through this reading list. I hope it will help you sort out nature/nurture:
"Nature Via Nurture", by Matt Ridley
"The Red Queen", by Matt Ridley
"The Blank Slate: The Denial of Human Nature", by Steven Pinker
"The Moral Animal", by Robert Wright
I highly recommend "Nature via Nurture" myself - excellent and very enjoyable to read!
Be sure, many scientists are studying these issues, and the results may surprise you...
(Be sure to check the reviews of these books at Amazon.com)
...but only after adopting Western methods. Q.E.D.
The non-deluxe doesn't use an nForce chip...I believe it is C-Media, which explains why it sounds like crap.
I strongly suggest that you read Parasite Rex by Carl Zimmer. Hopefully my point will be much clearer to you then. :)
I'm not saying that fight is all there is, but the evidence presented by parasitologists and zoologists suggest that cooperation and competition go hand in hand (cooperate with your fellow group-mates, so that you can out-compete the other group in the same territory -- perhaps even wage war on them. Baboons and chimpanzees do fight each other, y'know).
Also, the fact that we can prevent the spread of certain diseases, like SARS, doesn't change the rules of biology at all, anymore than a primate who hollers when a tiger or some other big predator approaches does. Humans don't have a monopoly on communicating threats.
To say that humans are "above evolutionary pressures" only demonstrates a lack of understanding on what evolution is. If the environment decides to throw a ten kilometer diameter asteroid at Earth and wipes out humanity, then it is pretty obvious that we did not yet evolve enough to deal with this disastrous change in environment!
Provided of course that we don't destroy ourselves first, which would be a demonstration of how humans can place evolutionary pressure on themselves.
You are thinking in the macro, not the micro. Multicellular organisms have contended with bacterial infections, viruses, and other parasites for millions upon millions of years. The host organism is directly competing with these smaller, more adaptable organisms for the resources that the host spent the energy to attain.
The more successful parasites (like the common cold, the flu, fleas, etc.) don't have to kill the host. They use the host's body as an incubator for the parasite's reproductive needs. And, given enough time, the parasites can become part of the organism itself...a symbiotic cooperative relationship can develop (mitochondria may have been the result of such a process). But, obviously, not all organisms "choose" cooperation in their evolutionary development.
Whoops...premature submitification there. :)
What animal practices genocide?
Ants. Chimpanzees.
What animal practices monogamy?
There is a species of mice (or is it a marsupial? can't remember) that takes the "Until death do us part" literally.
Humans are not monogamous by the way...they are polygynous!
What animal practices gang-rape?
A species of bottle-nosed dolphins has been observed where the males travel in pods, harassing female pods, and singling out a female and kidnapping her for their evil nefarious purposes. Just like humans sometimes do!
Humans possess a lot of traits exhibited by many animal species it seems. In that respect, they are the "pinnacle" of evolution's creation.
> What animal has free will?
All of them do, given their ability to sense their surroundings.
> What animal can split the atom?
The sun splits atoms all the time. You don't have to be an animal to do that!
> What animal is loved by God?
I recall a passage in the old testament about how God tried to force the Egyptians to adopt frogs and grasshoppers...so it's gotta be them!
> What animal can build an engine?
Funny, I know millions of humans can't build engines either. But I have seen hamster powered bicycles!
> What animal can love?
Ever seen elephants visit the graves of their loved ones year after year? Ever own a dog?
> What animal can speak?
Quite a few parrots and other bird species are quite capable of speech. Remember that parrot that can speak the names of objects or name an action?
> What animal can appreciate beauty?
Peahens lusting after the prettiest peacocks.
There is a cool species of birds that builds multi-story birdsnests to impress the female birds of the same species. Complete with porch entrances, awnings, the whole works! The best house-builders get the most bird tail.
> What animal can write poetry?
Chimpanzee sign language could be considered poetry. It's probably better than the post-modern crap published in recent years.
> What animal other than man is the utter pinnacle of all creation?
Toxoplasma Gondii...it's the master of humans AND cats! It's the coolest parasite out there...
You forgot a few other questions:
What animal practices altruism?
Vampire bats.
www.hometheaterforum.com
That site is the absolute BEST discussion forum I have ever seen in my life. Take a look at their rules/policies, and you'll quickly see why. And the moderation is extremely fair. I have not seen ANY evidence of abuse or hypocrisy anywhere on that site.
Quite frankly, it frequently puts Slashdot to shame in the quality of content and signal-to-noise ratio.
Still, I find Slashdot an amusing place. Sure, most Slashdot folk don't have a clue about home theater hardware hacking, but hey, it's fun!
So far, the HTF has not been threatened by any lawsuits that I know of, even though they deal with movie studios and their employees.
Not in the Promise of Sleep, but it does mention that sex, even at night, seems to have no effect on sleep patterns. In other words, hot sex won't won't change how well you sleep that night.
:)
That's a good thing.
Hmmm...that sounds pretty dangerous. Also, I'm pretty sure it was Thomas Edison (the inventor guy) and not Jefferson who attempted this schedule. I could be wrong, but I do know that Edison attempted the same schedule, but his assistants witnessed him dozing for hours when he was supposedly "napping" for 20 minutes!
Now, the claim about the 1.5 to 2 hours of REM sleep being required (and not the typical 8 hours minimum) per day is interesting, but does contradict the research conclusions found in the Promise of Sleep book. Lack of REM didn't affect the subjects, when they were awakened repeatedly during REM sleep, but allowed the total 8 hour requirement of "deep-wave" and other non-REM stages of sleep.
Also, I think this system is extremely dangerous for long driving trips. What happens when you've been driving for more than 2 hours? Hitting REM sleep would likely be involuntary if you adjust to the author's schedule, and will undoubtedly be fatal!
Good advice. Unfortunately, I could never get into the napping thing. I always end up too wide awake a few hours lately, and never get back to sleep.
:)
Damn those weekends...going to sleep at 2 or 3 am Friday and Saturday nightmesses up my sleep rhythm for the rest of the week. I'll blame computers...yeah that's the ticket!
Yeah...college students have it bad! Odd how many early sleep studies were skewed because they used sleep-deprived college students! ("Hey, these students sleep 10-11 hours a night for 2 weeks, then they miraculously only need 8 hours a night." -- hence the discovery of sleep debt)
Fortunately, most college students can't afford to drive a car, or can't afford to commute. So, they sleep on the bus.
Truckers, salesmen, executives, and blue collar workers likely are at highest risk of sleeping at the wheel.
Yes I totally agree. It is such an obvious fact that people just can't believe it's true. Stupid!
I already posted a comment detailing how to tell if you're sleep deprived...it's simple, really. Too simple for the media to report, apparently. Dumbasses.
I can't believe this...no one seems to understand the costly effects of sleep deprivation. The article doesn't even point out that people shouldn't be so stupid as to drive when drowsy. Here's a clue. Take two, they're small!
Sleep deprivation, that results in drowsiness during repetitive activities as driving and assembly line work, is one of the leading causes of car accidents at night. Mix in a small amount of alcohol, and you have a potentially lethal situation, even when you're very much under the legal blood alcohol limit. Alcohol + sleep debt = ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL.
The problem is, people are too stupid to realize they are sleep deprived. Here's a clue:
1) Complaints that they are always tired (then don't drive at night. Are they stupid? YES!).
2) Do the Stanford sleep test...hold a spoon or loud toy out over the floor while sitting down. Have a timer or clock nearby. Close your eyes. If you fall asleep, you will hear the object hit the floor. If it fell 5 minutes or less after your eyes were closed, you have serious sleep deprivation and probably shouldn't be driving for long periods AT ALL. USE COMMON SENSE FOLKS! If you fall asleep and don't hear anything, you are in serious trouble.
3) Get plenty of sleep. Some people need eight hours of sleep a night, others need more or less. Also, sleep debt is CUMULATIVE. If you require 8 hours of sleep a night, but have only slept 4 hours a night for a week, then you have 4*7=28 hours of sleep debt. The more sleep debt you have, the fast you drop the object in point 2 above. I believe there is a sleep debt maximum (40 hours debt?) but the research is inconclusive.
This should be common sense folks...but unfortunately the media lacks the vision to let the public know these simple facts.
References, easily looked up at Amazon.com:
The Promise of Sleep, by William C. Dement.
The Sleep Thieves, by Stanley Coren
*sigh* It only takes a few minutes to learn all this, folks. Anyone want to buy a book on Hell and Handbaskets?
It would be ironic if the accident was caused by a cellphone using driver!
I strongly suggest you read "How We Believe : The Search for God in an Age of Science" by Michael Shermer. Look it up on Amazon.com, has complete arguments on the existence of God and theories of why "we" believe in one.
I find your "research" conjures up arguments based on pseudo-science...they are not even close to being scientific I'm afraid (I don't mean to insult you, it's just that many people are not informed as to what science really is, and are easily mislead by many creatism arguments disguised as "science").
I don't see why this is a big deal...think of it as training for the real world, where you will not always have a chance to use what YOU want.
Besides, you will a learn a lot this way...everyone at slashdot values cross-platform development right? And what better way to learn than by coding your project in code-warrior, and porting it to g++, or vice-versa?
Instead of making this a religious issue, treat this as a real learning opportunity for yourself. You will become a much better programmer for it!
Gnome 1.2 acts very little like Gnome 1.0? You mean it doesn't core dump everytime you moved the mouse??!!
Boy, gnome sure has gone a long way!
Too bad you didn't properly read the status reports...You would have known that he was driving a HONDA CIVIC.
Sheesh, don't people ever READ?
It seems a lot of you have missed the point about the question posed by the poster...the question isn't "What should the Linux GUI be like?" but rather "What should we change about the Open-Source model to allow user feedback on user interfaces?"
;) [/flamebait]
:)
Actually, I think the article should've been posted as an "Ask Slashdot" instead of being a "news item" (which has been discussed before, as someone has already pointed out).
It is a good question. From what I have seen, some open-source projects openly discourage regular users from submitting suggestions on user interface improvements [flamebait] (you GNOME/KDE/Linux zealots have only yourselves to blame...
Other OS projects are structured such that only developers/programmers have any say as to the design of the system. Obscure mailing lists with awkward majordomo commands certainly make it difficult for the average joe to participate, and it doesn't help when the rest of the participants are developers who have no sympathy for the poor guy because he can't "hack it".
I'm hoping great projects such as SourceForge(is that right?) stuff will open the communication lines, and blast the doors held closed by these "open source is for everybody, but to heck with the user" hypocrites.
Open source has to be truly open-source for everyone...not just the programmers, who, by necessity, have a very narrow few of the system they are designing. In fact, when you allow the people who will actually use the program in, we may actually get around this "the source is everything" mentality and gravitate to an "Open Design Project", where everyone works together ont he specification, design, AND coding of the system.
Too allow the people without the programming expertise to participate, you'll need to add an extra cycle or two to the phases of an Open Source project...requirements gathering (you must ask what users want) and requirements verification (is this what the user wants?).
Excuse my ramblings...I just think that the term Open Source is just too limiting.
If you can make sense of this, paraphrase it so that my befuddled brain will know what I am talking about.
I haven't read Iain's latest book, The Business, yet, but it might explore some of these themes. Check it out on Amazon.com for the reviews...
You have some good points there. I agree, open source projects often put far too much emphasize on code over design (the early versions of GNOME and Enlightenment spring to mind).
I think the only real solution to removing jerks from an open source projects is simply to never let them in. Rigorous peer review can help with this. For example, if someone wants to join an open source project, they have to cite work done on previous projects AND there should be a "dossier" on the person himself. This dossier would contain an assessment of the person's abilities, especially the ability to cooperate in a group project, written by members of other projects the programmer has worked on before.
In essence, it is like a resume written by your peers.
Of course, if the person has never worked on an open source project before (or does not have a dossier), a probation period could be in effect, similar to what many corporations practice when getting new hirees.
Hugs and kisses to those who can improve on my little suggestion!
Rectal Prolapse
I'm wondering how the wacko cults are handling this...the world hasn't ended. Armageddon hasn't happened.
:)
And I still can't believe that my apartment managers decided do shut down the elevator before midnight "To show that management is prepared for Y2K".
Please! In this supposed time and age, why do people insist on believing outright fallacies...UFO's, alien abductions, the Aurora Project , Y2K bug, armageddon, demons, virgin Mary visions...the list goes on and on.
What will be the new demons of the next century? Solar flares wiping out life on Earth? The conjunction of the planets coming, I believe, in May, causing major natural catastrophies (like, all the volcanoes on Earth erupting at once...talk about extra fibre in your diet!). Or maybe there'll be a widespread and deadly flu epidemic...Or perhaps the world will be destroyed sometime in 2040 like some nostradamus enthusiasts believe.
Choose your poison...but hey, maybe it'll make you rich!
At any rate, hear's a toast to those of us who aren't hiding in makeshift bunkers!
May this year be the Year of the Space Moose!
According to my financial advisor, it is "illegal" for Canadians to participate in an IPO. Canadians have to wait until the company is public before they can buy any shares.
It really really sucks. I think those VA Linux IPO offer letters sent out to Canadian developers may in fact be asking Canadians to break the law!
Or maybe I am missing something here? Obviously I have not read the letter, as I don't qualify. Doesn't VA Linux have a legal department?
IANAL.
What state was this? Remind me never to go there...
BTW, those local "pigs" are moronic...I can't see how NOT having ABS would help...
Unfortunately, this event could only reinforce anti-american stereotypes.