"Once again this is the israeli point of view. If you listen to other people they seem to have a different recollection of what happened."
This is also the point of view of the last 2 presidents of the united states, as well as the state department (the State Departement is rarely pro-israel). Furthermore it's the view of both the house and senet with a total of one senator and 22 house representatives desenting. All of these people are much closer to what happend at Camp David than any of us, and they have stated and voted in public that the facts I stated are true.
The palastinians point of view on camp david is irelevent. They also believe that jews back the blood of arab children into matzah, that the protocols of zion are actually true, and that it was the mosad that blew up the WTC. Their media sources make ours look positivley upright. They live in a place of state controled media, and rampant bias so extream that they actually told them that the IDF was droping pigs from the sky to eat up their crops and starve them out... the palastinian POV is therefore some what suspect.
"They blame Barak for lying to them and then stabbing them in back."
How did Barak stab them in the back? I have never been able to figure this out. Barak offered more than any other PM in history, and far more than anyone in the international community expected. How could he have stabed them in the back?
"There is nothing preventing israel from lifting the occupation unilatirally"
There is a daying. "If the Arabs put down their weapons their would be peace. If the Israelies put down their weapons there would be no Israel."
A Palastine formed on land less than maximalist demand will end up in another Sheba Farms episode. (every nation on earth has, including most of the Arab ones said that Sheba farms (3 acres) was part of Israel, but Hizbola says they have to keep killing to drive the israelies out).
A Palastine formed with no treaties for arms limitations will result in a staging area for a full out war against Israel.
The palastinians don't want west bank and gaza, they want israel, all of it. And they wont stop till they have it all. Religiously they cant. It's considered Wakf. All land ever owned by muslims can never be returned or sold.
" It's been decades since the israeli army starting occupying the palestenians if they didn't want to they could have ended this at any time. They never have and I submit that that's because they don't want to. "
They did pull out. Under the Oslo agreement. By 1998 95% of all Palastinians were under PA rule.
"A healthy palestenian economy will have devestating effects on the israeli position."
This is as oposed to endless suicide bombers? The number of wholes in this theory are countless. The biggest is that the only source for cheap labor are the palasnians. Palastinian labor hasn't been in major use for nearly a year. Most unskilled labor now comes from India, Russia, and the pacific rim. Cheap labor isn't hard to find, anywhere in the world. It's a sad fact of life. But if what you say is true, then America must be doing the same thing to Guatamala and Mexico, since most of our unskilled labor comes from them.
The bulk of Israels economy comes from skilled labor, diamonds, technology, agro-tech, biotech and medical export. Agroculture comes in pretty low on the list, and there is very little manufacturing industry in israel, it is almost all outsource to Europe. Most Palastinian labour was used for construction (of those blasted settlements!!), janitorial and taxi driver positions. Not exactly the kind of dependency that would warnt the kind of conspiracy your talking about.
Besides, there are hundreds of thousands of either unempoyed or under paid (avg $600 a month with a family of 6) jews that would be happy to do the work.
"As for the standard of living I highly doubt the israeli arabs have a higher standard of living then the people in abu dhabi, kuwait, or even saudi arabia."
The average income for Saudi Arabia is $32 a week, which has decliend more than 300% in the last 20 years. Women are treated like slaves, and are legaly the property of their husbands/fathers.
Kuwait &Abu Dahbi are welfare economies with 95% of the population recieving money from the state. Neither country has any industrie other than Oil export (realisticaly). Welfare economies dont' count, since standard of living includes freedom of entreprenuership.
In Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, & Abu Dhabi women are not allowed to vote or stand for election, nor can they decide whether or not to be married or divorced. Killing your wife is not considered murder, and is punishable by a maximum of 3 years. When I said standard of living I meant for men AND WOMEN!
Also Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, & Abu Dhabi have no REAL democracy. In the rare cases that they can elect someone you can either vote for only one person, or the person you do vote for has no power in the goverment. They are ALL Patriarcal Monarchies.
Lastly is the most condeming part, a Palastinian shop owner living in Jeruselam area B circulated a petition to the PA asking that they be left under Israeli jurisdiction when the PA's status is finalized. Before the shop owner was shot 6 times in a the chest, he had collected over 2,000 signitures. I'm looking for the name. The article is now over 2 years old and a little tough to find. Will get back to you.
"Hopefully the war crimes tribunal will act and hold him responsible."
He was already tried, and exonerahed by the UN war crimes tribunal 20 years ago. Unfortunatley the world community has no double jepordy laws like the US, he's being tried by the EU in absentee, that didn't exist at the time. Wow... I can't believe that's even legal!!
"Oh man that's a funny one. I laughed so hard when I read this. But then again they have a built in excuse to kill the palestenians and take their land they simply claim that god promised that land to the jews ans voila kill with a clear conscience. Nice heh?"
Go pick up a Talmud, it's how this argument started. Talmud is THE book of jewish law. And it states bluntly that you may not kill wontonly in a war of expansion. Furthermore you are not allowed to retake Israel in an any war of expansion. The only exception is for defense. Any teritory gained in an act of self defense is legitmate. However if you have the oportunity to limit your enemies casualties, or allow him to escape, you have to take it.
However Israel is a secular state. These rules only apply if the ultra-right wingers take office. (since in israel the right wing is generaly relgious, and they are compeled to abide by Talmudic law)
"It will be bloody as hell and the mass murder of palestenians by the israelis will forever be compared to the treatment of jews"
Unless you lost family, or were yourself in the Nazi camps, I would please ask you to refrain from commenting on them. You simply don't have the right. And yes, holocost victims (jewish or otherwise) DO have an exclusive on this!!
There is NO equivilancy to what Hitler did to the Jews. Hitler would not allow even one jew to live, or to escape. And I have proven over and over that Israel has tried to make peace, and even risked the lives of it's own sons and daughters to avoid hurting palastinian civilians. Even the gethoization of the Palastinians is done to them by thier own, not by the israelies.
In the holocost the Jews weren't allowed to run. We tried. We ran everywhere we could find a spare place. But we were sent back at the point of a barel to the concentration camps. Not just by the Nazie's but by the US, British, Canadians, Russians, Italians, Spanish, French, and every other nation on earth save the Chinise and Brazilians. When the Allies carpet bombed ever inch of germany, they wouldn't bomb the railways to the concentration camps, because it was a strategic advantage that the Nazi's wasted resources against the Jews. No one would defend us. No one would take us in. And when that wasn't enough they helped to kill us. That is what Israel is for! Never Again, means that NEVER again will jewish blood be cheap. Israel was created to defend jews where ever in the world they may be. And that is what Israel is doing!
If the Palastinians realy thought they were going through another holocoust then they can run! Because that's what we did. But they aren't going through that, and it isn't as horific, because no sane human would stay and be slautered like that (The Shoa)! They are surrouned by culturaly IDENTICLE countries, where they could live in peace! Before 1973 both Syria and Jordan claimed to be the actual "Palastinians". In situations like the holocost people run. They aren't running. Where there is smoke there is fire. There is no smoke, and certainly no evidence of genocide.
Europeans still feel guilty for the holocost, that's why they lay this claim on Israel. Because if the jews are as bad as them, then they have no reason to feel guilty for their complicity.
Yes you have the right to defend yourself against opression. But not against inocent civilians. You have the right to your land. But no plot of land is worth a human life. And if given the option between resorting to terrorism, and loosing.. you have the right to loose.
"I have seen coverage of Israeli fighters launching missiles into crowded citites, helicopter gunships strafing inside citites, and tanks shelling inside of cities"
So you missed the parts where the helcopter hovers over head for 3 hours with a megaphone saying get out were going to blow this building up? I'm not kidding they do this. Not every time. Especialy not when they plan to fire a missle in and take out one or two guys. But usually (and yes there have been exceptions) they warn of the attack ahead of time. CNN doesn't like to mention this, so check multiple sources, some where in the middle is the truth.
"If that is true".. " 1) lift the occupation. Pull out all troops to the border, seal it off and let the palestenians be. 2) Agree on a date on which palestine will be an independent state.
Since it is unwilling to do either one I will not believe you when you say they don't want to babysit the palestenians."
They did. Camp David, 1998. for 7 years preceding that 95% of all palastinians, 40% of the west bank, and 97% of the gaza strip were under exclusive PA control. At Camp David Barak (who the arab press still calls a Butcher, though I have no idea why) and Clinton offered all that pluss 100% of gaza and 95% of the west bank, pluss israels only oil wells, natural water springs, land in israel proper, 3/4 of Jeruselam, and internationalization of the TempleMount to make up for the missing 5%. Arafat walked away without any discussion or counter offer. To quote President Bill Clinton, refering to Camp David "Arafat made a fool of me."
Israel did exactly what you asked for. It's in writing. You can look up further details on the agreement. It was even endorsed by the President of the United States.
"First of all it's illegal under international law."
Yeah... better a few die while breaking the law than millions of lemmings to their deaths by adhering to it's letter. And make no mistake, when talking about this conflict, the present casualty numbers are nothing compared to the real stakes, which are in the millions.
The old phrase: "If you could have shot Hitler before he came to power. would you?", Arafat and his PA are just getting warmed up.
"They do this to keep the palestenians poor and destitue which supplies them with a ready stream of cheap labor to clean their toilets and to bus their tables. It's all calculated."
So I suppose it's also big Jewish conspiracy that Israeli-Arabs have the highest living standards of any Arab group in the entire middle east (baring oil princes, who hoard their money, instead of feeding their starving people). It's probably also a massive plot that Israel kept giving money to the PA untill nearly a year into the war? Oh and my other favorit plot is that it was the jews who kept he palastinians poor during the 20 years they were under Jordainian rule!
There is not one industrialized Arab nation on earth. Nor is their a arab democracy. Or any muslim or arab country that alows palastinians to have a job within their borders. But this is also a plot by those crafty israeli's to keep the palastinian down, and working for cheep.
" they want to remove the palestenians from that land."
problem. Were not talking about one indigenous peoples, and a european invader. These are two indigenous peoples (counting back 300 years). Now if you want to have a pissing contest on who's more indiginous fine. But your going to loose, 'cause I have british, ottoman, and roman historacle records on hand. (not the originals, I need to save up more money for that:)
Besides much of the land that Palastinians claim as their own was purchased by jews while under ottoman and british mandate goverments. This land was taken from them in 1948, and no one has offered it back since.
"1) Sharon completes his genocide."
Sharon didn't have anything to do with Sabra and Shlita, he just doesn't care enough about muslims to do it. (actually Arab-Christians did the butchering to Arab-Muslims) Quite frankly he neither likes nor hates muslims. He never cared about them at all. So he just ignored the report of what was going on. As far as he was concerned it was just the christians getting back at the muslims for what had been done to them for the last thousand years. That's negligence not homicide, and even the act it's self doesn't qualify as genocide, it was done against a relgious group, by it's own race. Unless the butchers of Sabra and Shlita commited suicide it's not genocide. (actually the term is xenocide)
And I should also mention, under jewish law your not allowed to kill the palastinians to take their land. The only reason you can kill is for self defense (using mandatory draft, it's complicated).
"3) Jesus comes back."
Just in case some one relgios is reading.
It's odd that the Torah (old testament) starts off with a story of creation. Now adays we take it for granted, of course you should start a book about G_d and the world by describing the begining of it. But the problem is that the Torah isn't in cronological order to begin with. And besides it's a book of laws, not stories. The answere given by sages is that the reason why the Torah starts out with G_d creating the world is so that everyone will understand that it belongs to him, not us, and whom ever he decides to give the land of Israel to, it's his to give.
sorry for the religious diatribe. But if anyone thinks Jeasus is coming back, this is a big point.
"4) United states puts it's foot down "
Then what happens when the US leaves? This is what the US did in '79 between Egypt and Israel. Now the US gives 6 billion every year to Israel and Egypt (even split). But when the US pulled out it's troops from the Sinai (down to 23 now) the Egyptions started smuggling weapons over the border, agrivating the situation.
"Like you said peace is not possible."
It's possible, just not in any sort of pleasent way. Whether there will be Peace or War it's going to be a bloody one.
One of the greatest leaders of the jewish people (no matter how controversial, especialy after his death) in recent years was Menachem Mendel Schnereson (and you thought it was hard to pronounce Moshe?) was once aproached by a man who came to him and said "Thankyour Rebbi, but I have to admit, I don't believe in god." to which he replied "The same god you don't believe in I don't beleive in either."
The moral of the story? Contrary to popular beliefe most of the world does not bleive that Jeasus has any devine nature. Nor does most of the world believe that G_d is an old man with a beard. Those who do believe that are free to do so, that's what makes the world great.
But you need to remember that to the majority of the world your idea of the god, and the reasons you don't believe, do not apply in any way to the rest of the world's faiths.
Both sides are guilty. (I'm not even getting in to the Sharon thing, I don't think he's a war criminal, but he should have been dishonarably discharged for criminal negligence)
Israel does not make it it's intent to kill civilians, if it does it does so accidentialy. Do acidentaly injured or killed people deserve compensation? Probably depending on their complicity, and in the middle east that can be a tough thing to figure out. And right now they couldn't pay anyhow, because the EU has trashed their economy (but sending weapons to Iran is ok?)
Israel goes in because it has to. Israelie's have NO desire to babysit the Palastinians, and no want to risk the lives of their sons and daughters to police them. Remember this whole thing started AFTER Arafat turned down national soverenty at Camp David. (at the time of Camp David 95% of desputed territory was under PA rule. Most areas hadn't seen an IDF soldier in 5 years)
Israel assasinates Palastinian leaders? Yeah, they do. Personaly I think it's better to take out the leader of a riot, than to gun down the crowd. I also think they just need one more asasination... (now this is MY oinion)
Torture... can't disagree one bit. Sucks. It's cruel and shows a lack of efficiency. I would try to defend it if I thought it actually did more good than harm. But drugs can be so much faster, and are relatively more humane.
Holding without trial. True, israel lacks the US's bill of rights, but this is the case in most countries. Also this is standard operating procedure in the PA too. It's not a justification, but it does explain the situation in the middle east as a whole.
The problem is that now you have two bad neighboors.
The Israeli's at least show more intrest in building up an economy and living confortably, it's leverage and can be used to make them good neighboors.
On the other hand, the palastinians stand a snowballs chance in the Negev of building any sort of infastructure, furhtermore the PA has spent the last 8 years shoving hate literature down childrens throughts. Even if they totaly relplaced the PA, you would still have to deal with a hostile neighboor, who's poor and pissed and looking for a target to take out their anger. Compounded with blockd of non-contiguous teretory, other arab countries smuggling in weapons, and the fact that they still think that all of land between the jordan and the mediterainian is theirs.
The second one Palastian fires a rocket over the border, Israel will react with "Never Again" mode, and go way beyond what any other nation would consider normal. (the Holocost may be history to you, but to Jews it never ended, and Israel is the first line of defense)
My point is that peace may not be possible. Both sides harbour hate and fear of eachother in a way neither of us can understand.
When I was the president of my highschools computer club, we ran a fund raiser. after school for 50 cents students could come in and Doom their hearts out (or any other game) on the network. Made a heck of allot of money that way.
We were shut down after about a month when they caught onto us. (never did get a good reason why we couldn't)
You know, I was going along with this thread thinking, "TLC, there are two sides to every story. You, your biased. And this debate may give you the opportunity to see the other side." Thanx for proving me wrong on at least one count.
I've given you facts, dates, UN friggen statistics. I can even back them up with a bibliography if you choose to ask. All you are doing is making some assumed, and emotional, alegations. PROVE IT!! Because the stuff your saying sounds allot more like propoganda from where I'm sitting. Please prove me wrong.
If you'd actualy be reading you would have seen that I'm not trying to justify anything. Israel screwed up, even they admit that. But just like the palastinians they are in a tough situation and doing things that only desperate people would do. Both sides are under attack.
You for your part are obviosly starting from a heavily biased POV. You keep bringing up israeli torture and shootings. Palistinians do that too. They even get parades in their honor if they do it a whole lot. BTW: do you think the PA will make this kind of restitution too?
You are also making a BIG assumption that this is the "Palastinian's Land". Sorry to break it to you charly but it's as much their land as it is England's or Frances. They don't even have a historical record. The first recorded use of the word "Palastinian" to represent a national identity was 1973, by none other than Arafat. Ironicaly arabic doens't even have a "P" sound, the name Palastinian was chosen for political purposes, the asumtion of identity with the land. (I always think it's cute to hear Arafat call his people "the Balastinian Beapol"). If they do have an unique identiy apart from other indigionous mulsims, I'm trying to find out. But funny me I beleive in research somehting before I take a pasionet stand on it.
It's a little hard to defend your country from people who have sworn a blood oath to wipe you out, without shooting them. Oh other's have tried... but handing floowers to the nice gentelman making bombs just makes him laugh. Most studies have shown that the most effective way to stop an attacker from killing you is a large caliber rifel shot, between his eyes.
The Israeli's are under attack. And quite frankly I don't care who started it!!! It started frigging 80 years ago!! The point is both sides are under attack and both sides have a right to self defense. But neither side has the right to target non-combatants. If they do then so be it.
(BTW: Have you heard anything about how they will determine who was rongfully hurt in afganistan? And seing as how the average afgani makes less than a dollar a week, what the hell are they going to do with $10,000? that's about a 300 year salary over night. Sounds like a quick way to make a couple people really rich, really fast.
Also since you think the US's behavior is so noble, do you realize who they are putting back in power? The same people that the taliban kicked out in the first place! Not because the taliban are religios nuts, they are. But because the former goverment was going on genocidal rampages and killing people. We may not like the taliban, hell the Afgani's and the rest of the world may not like them. But when they took power they were hailed as heros, for liberating that country from opression. Let it be a lesson, it's no good to trade one dictator for another, even if the new one is your own.)
Look I'm doing my best to be open minded about this, care to give a little of the same back?
First, this thing has got very little to do with relgion. I know it sounds weird. But the fact of the matter is that neither the Israelis or the Palastinians are all that religious. Yeah, we see CNN shots of mosques and men with long beards (both sides:) Fact is that 70% of Israel's population is on record as ANTI-Relgios, and with the exception of Hamas (not so active these days) violent factions amongst the Palastinians are secular (including the politicaly named Alasqa Brigades).
It's the forward looking that's really killing us too (as well as the back looking). Israeli's are largley decendent from holocost survivors, and Jews in general have a very long memmory. When Palastinians go marching down the street chanting "Death to Jews" it does not fill Israeli's with compasion and sympathy for their plight.
Likwise, when border guards humiliate palastinians who are just trying to make a living and support their faimlies over stupid bigotries. It doesn't help to calm the situation.
I will never claim that Israel is inocent. They aren't. But then again Israel is not a monoculture hell bent on the destruciton of all non jews. Some factions are nazi-ish lunatics, others camp out side border patrolls to take notes and video tape IDF violations.
On compensation, your sorley mistaken. Not only has humanitarian aid been shipped into Jenin and the west bank, but Israeli hospitals have been taking palastinian wounded since the begining. Health officials sent over a hundred thousand huff 'n mouth vacinations to the PA. During the seige at Ramalah, the IDF supplied not only basic supplies but cigarettes and toiletries (not much good the water was cut). Furthermore the FIRST country to send humanitarian aid to Afganistan was not Saudi, America, France or GB, it was Israel.
1) Arafat was elected 8 years ago. But no one else was running against him. There have been no elections since, despite calls from a palastian "senet" for new elections for the last 4 years.
2) 90% of israeli arabs voted FOR Sharon. It's whole debate just trying to figure this one out.
3) None of this would have happend in the first place if Arafat didn't through away Camp David. Barak was anything but bloodthirsty, and defied the vast majority of his own people and offered even Jeruselam!!
"Ocupation vs Defense"
BOTH sides are defending them selves. Israeli's are being attacked too.
Like I said, since no Palastian state has ever existed, and Jordan relinquished all claims to the west bank, there is not Ocupation. You have a refugee problem, but again Israel isn't alone in this (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt all have refugee camps originating in 1948)
The world? Who partel should represent the world?
The UN? All regional actions are handled by the the Regional Security council. In wich israel is allowed no vote (since it would need to be voted in), and is controled entirley by countries that have had a declared a state of war with israel for over 50 years! (eceptions to Egypt and Jordan). (side note, the UN has never condemed anyone who attacked Israel, and it's a long list)
How about France? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!! (oh I needed a good laugh!) I'll be old and gray before I can list all the problems with that.
England? They created this mess in the first place. Besides their still ocupying Ireland.
Oh even better, how about brining in Saudi Arabia, yeah thats great. We can listen to them talk about peace in english while they broadcast TV stations into Israel, in arabic, on how to make bombs from house hold materials.
Egypt? No. They founded the PLO!
How about someone with no vested intrests? China? No, besides some of the worst human rights violations on record, they have arms deals with Israel.
Humiliation is not grounds for murdering civilians. Last I checked children sitting in school or nursing from their mother's never humilated an Palastinian.
BTW: I chalange you to prove that anything Israel has done to the Palastinians is unique. i.e. is not done by surounding countries with minority arab poplulations. (a hint, this is a violent area of the world, with or without Israel)
Or better yet, since your educated more than I on the palastian point of view. What the heck is a palastinian?
If you want to check for propganda please do, but provide some sort of proof that this is untrue or that I have skewed the facts.
the above were facts, and are available in any public record. My interpretation was of course slanted. But what facts in particular do you take issue to? What do you feel I omitted?
When it comes to the middle east, nothing is simple, and everything is about history.
1) Up until Intefada II Israel had pulled out of 95% of "Palestinian Territories". At that time, this most recent mess started, it could hardly be refereed to as a military occupation. Also consider the region for a moment; Syria "Occupies" Lebanon presently and shoots anyone who brings the subject up, but no one protests them. Under the 1949 armistice between Israel and Jordan, Jordan stipulated that the borders of Judea/Sumeria were NOT national boundaries but war time boundaries and subject to change. Hence, Jordan was also occupying the west bank (I guess that would be their east bank...). Both the Jordanians past treatment of the Palestinians and Syria's treatment of it's own citizens, the Lebanese and their own Palestinian refugees makes Israel look like a Palestinian pleasure resort. Does this justify Israel's treatment of the Palestinians? No. But it puts it in perspective. This is "Normal" for the region. And you can't expect anyone to switch to an "enlightened" western view over night.
2) It's awful that the Palestinians don't like being occupied. But you know what... that doesn't justify killing civilians, women, children, and whole families. I'm not talking about accidentally killing innocents. I'm talking about walking into high schools and kinder gardens with rifles and unloading. Nothing justifies this, nothing.
3) First, those settlements are legal. Second, most of the land and cities that the Palestinians live in now, belonged to Jews who were forced off their land ILEGALY in 1948, no one has asked for it back. Third, no one ever talks about Palestinian settlements, yes they do the same thing as the Israeli's. Each one is trying to lay claim to as much land as they can before the borders are finalized. Since their has never been a Palestinian state there are no "original" borders to work from, so it's a land grab by both sides.
4) Israel does reserve the right to retaliate and defend it's self, furthermore it reserves the right to hunt down any terrorists that are not being detained by their host countries. Just like big brother USA.
First the US asked the Taliban to arrest Osama Bin Laden and Alquada, the US waited less than 2 months. Israel asked the PA to reign in Hamas, Fatah, the PFLP, etc. and waited 7 years, during witch time over 2000 Israelis died in terrorist attacks.
Then the US went in and carpet bombed what was left of Afghan cities, exacting unknown death tolls, but according to US senators the death toll was in multiples of 9/11. The reasoning for this action was to avoid any further loss of life to US soldiers. Israel went in on the ground (though they had the capacity for carpet bombing) and did everything they could avoid civilian casualties, including telling the terrorists (as well as the general public) when and where they would be operating 3 hours in advance to give innocents an opportunity to evacuate. So effective are the Israelis at this, that when they went into a situation like Jenin, with booby traps and human shields, in a civilian neighborhood, that even the Palestinian Gov't admits to less than 60 casualties, mostly non-civilian.
The US expected a bunch of backwater thugs to round up and arrest one of the most advanced terrorist networks in the world. Israel asked the PA to round up specific individuals, while the PA was claiming a "Police Force" larger than any other in the world per capita.
The Palestinian people are not evil. Neither is Israel. The villain is the PA (aka PLO) which has made the Palestinians even poorer then when they started, and filled them with so much hate that this war may take generations to end.
A) What the heck does this have to do with linux development??
B) Jews have been living in Israel continuously since 1500BCE (BC), mostly with the blessings of the Ottoman empire. Return in earnest began in aprox 1880CE (AD). Up until the Balfour Declaration (November 2nd, 1917), Muslims and Jews lived in peace, and there was already a substantial Jewish population present. Soon after this the rioting started. (I'm not saying there weren't any problems before hand, but nothing out of the ordinary for the time period). Under the Balfour declaration alone, the land as legally GIVEN to the nation of Israel, without conflict (since the owner of the time was Great Britain). GB reneged on it's promise and signed it's name to UN proposition 181 (November 29, 1947) that repartitioned the land between the Jordan river into 2 NON-Contiguous states. One was an Arab state, to be given to Arabs already living in this region (not called Palestinians at the time), the other was a Jewish state. While most European countries ratified the agreement, none of the then 27 Muslim countries (which now make up the ENTIRE regional security council) in the region approved it. 181, was never ratified. Never the less, in compliance with UN rules regarding colonial holdings, GB pulled out entirely from the region, leaving over 90% of its entrenchments and weapons in the hands of Muslim countries, despite repeated declarations of intent to go on a genocidal rampage and wipe out any Jews found in then Palatine. When the dust settled, the region took on what is now called the pre-1967 boundaries.
Up until this point, it is incontestable that all actions in the creation of a state of Israel were STRICTLY DEFENSIVE. Which is not only permitted under Jewish law but REQUIRED. Few western authorities take issue with any of these points. Up until this point in time, Israel is CLEARLY in the legal right. And it's mostly the UN/GB and Israel's bad neighbors who are held to blame.
The issues start in 1967, when after several months of blockades by Egypt, and military build ups by Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon along Israel's borders, Israel initiated open hostilities against Egypt, to end the blockade. Under international law, naval blockades are considered an act of war. So who started the war is at issue. But the bottom line is that for the first few hours it was just Egypt and Israel slugging it out. Egypt was loosing bad. In the first 5 minuets (since Israel did STRIKE first) most of Egypt's air force had been destroyed while still on the ground. Egypt contacted Jordan and told Jordan that Egypt was winning the fight, and that a second front would cause the Israeli army to collapse. Jordan then fired on Israel, initiating hostilities with Israel. The outcome of those wars can be seen on any map of the present day.
Again the above, while it does present numerous moral issues, is not factually in contest.
Because of the debate over who started conflicts, Israel or Egypt, the Gaza strip is a legitimate area of debate. The West Bank (judea/sumaria) is under every international law, the property of Israel (especially since the treaty was signed between Jordan, the previous owner, and Israel, relinquishing and claims to said territory).
Here's the big issue. When Israel captured the west bank, they inherited a HUGE problem. Domestic Arabs living in the Judea Sumeria region, were living in ghettos. Some quarter million of them, this is a condition which had been in place since 1948, when millions of Arabs fled the conflict between revolutionary armies of the then newborn state of Israel, and 7 other allied Arab nations. It is on public record that these residents were asked by their proper governments to flee the area so as not to be hurt during the conflict. Since this time, until 1967 (and indeed until the present day in every middle eastern country except Israel) it had been ILLEGAL for these refugees to leave or work out side of these camps. What ever the motivations of Jordan (at the time Trans Jordan), they had created the refugee camps, rather than allow natural sprawl or integration into their society.
Israel attempted to alleviate the problem by building expansions of these camps into towns, and adding water, electric etc... Even offering full citizen ship to anyone living in the Jerusalem area. Resistance cell's quickly formed amongst the Arabs of Judea/Sumeria, now officially calling themselves Palestinians (which before 1948 referred to anyone jew/christian/muslim born in this region). Intimidation of moderates became the norm for both sides. Routine claims were made by both Jordan and Syria claiming that culturally Palestinians belonged to them. Raising serious issues about the validity of nation hood for an non-distinct culture that already has national independence in a bordering location.
Israel's treatment of the Palestinians has since been less than spectacular. IDF soldiers are drafted, so the entire spectrum of society is present in the military. From the well educated, to the... well... the Israeli equivalent of trailer trash. It's this trailer trash which is usually put on duty in the "Territories". Whether this is intentional by the IDF or the result of political strings being pulled by soldiers who's parents can afford to have them posted safer places is also a matter for debate.
Baring Jerusalem and Hevron, "Jewish settlements" do not displace domestic Arab populations, and are there for legal under international law.
With respect to Jerusalem and Hevron, both were predominately Jewish cities before 1948, when they were driven out by Jordanian forces, neither city has reached it's pre-1948 Jewish population, nor has any property lost during that war been returned to it's former owners. But that was 54 years ago, and most people who live there now have no memory of their properties previous owners or how it was acquired. This brings up major issues of how long a displaced peoples should be allowed to maintain their claim to their land.
Bottom line. It's not a simple situation, it can't be explained while standing on one foot. It takes weeks worth of research just to get a fledgling idea of what this conflict is about.
However this also isn't some ancient conflict stretching back beyond history. The records are recent, detailed and available to anyone who can find and use a library. Note: I recommend NOT using the Internet to do research for this... emotions are running way to high, and so is misinformation.
A) Orthodox Jewdiasm does not care one way or another about technology. It's neither evil nor good. It's a tool.
B) Divorce issues in Orthodoxy mostly revolve around a woman's right to initiating/demanding the seperation. But this has nothing to do with technology and far less to do with Linux development.
C) The proper authority isn't a programmer who studies Talmud. The proper authority is an internationaly respected rabbi, who programs.
Although I am trying to find holes in Microsoft's EULA, that would prohibit Orthodox jews from agreeing to it. Now that's a slashdot aplication of Talmud!!
It will be interesting to see which wins out, Metacity or Sawfish. Because this brings up a major issue. With all the corporate support in Linux these days, who carries a bigger voice in development, corporate sponsers with teams of programers or OS hackers with "carismatic" leaders?
I say given Sun's mixed history in OS they probably won't be able to sway GNOME development and will eventually switch back to the mainstream.
As shocking as it sounds, that a company (or "Aliance" of companies") would sue their customers. And even more shocking that they would persue an institution that, legal copies or not, is cranking out new customers adicted to their products every year.
This will become the norm.
Just like people got used to their computers crashing 4 or 5 times a day, just like people are getting used to having their privacey invaded by not only the goverment but private corporations a well; people will also get used to being audited for software licenses.
That is of course if we let this sleeping dog lie.
Right now companies, goverments, and universities are outraged at being audited. Now is the time to strike, while the iron is hot (wow I'm nocking out cliche's today!)!
First we can get into these places (if they don't through us out first) and evangilize OS.
But more importantly I think allot of our technical know how should go into drafting changeover guidlines and senarios. Set up documentation specificaly targeting different size universities, goverment agencies, and corporations of various sizes. Plans that are detailed and specific to a type of situation. Covering details like hardware repurchases (for non compatible hw), architechture options, software compatibility options, network layouts and RETRAINING plans!! (that includes retraining IT Staff from the ground up)
The only reason an organization would not bail on Microsoft after being attacked like this by MICROSOFT (AKA the BSA), is because they feel like they have no other practicle option. But there is and they NEED to know that. The information needs to be available.
Our house is ready for guests, now we just need to open the door and invite them in.
How hard would it be to figure out (given a fair training cycle) the orientation of a users head?
The human head isn't THAT iregular of a shape(ok some people).
couldn't you also track the movement of key color groupings as the head moves?
This seems cool but:
1) how do you click the mouse? (it would be cool to do it by blinking one eye or the other)
2) I am not sticking a dot to my head. I can barely remember to take my head phones off before I leave my desk (CHOKE!!) I dread the idea of going all afternoon not remembering to take that stupid dot off.
Pressed for profits, Internet companies are increasingly selling access to their users' postal mail addresses and telephone numbers, in addition to flooding their e-mail boxes with junk mail.
Yahoo (news/quote), the vast Internet portal, just changed its privacy policy to make it clear that it has the right to send mail and make sales calls to tens of millions of its registered users. And it has given itself permission to send users e-mail marketing messages on behalf of its own growing family of services, even if those users had previously asked not to receive any marketing from Yahoo. Users have 60 days to go to a page on Yahoo's Web site where they can record a choice not to receive telephone, postal or e-mail messages in various categories.
Similarly, when Excite, another big Internet portal, was sold in bankruptcy court late last year, the new owner asked Excite users to accept a privacy policy that explicitly allows it to rent their names and phone numbers to marketing companies. (Those users, too, could check a box on the site to opt out of such programs, if they had not already done so on the old Excite.)
The sites say that direct marketing to their users, both by e-mail and by older means, is an important source of revenue that can help make up for the rapid decline in sales of online advertising.
"It has been our orientation from the beginning to be straightforward with the user," said Bill Daugherty, the co-chief executive of the Excite Network. "They are getting free content and utility that is unparalleled, and in return we will be marketing products to them."
But even many marketing experts say that the risk to the reputations of these companies may outweigh any revenue they may receive.
"What Yahoo has done is unconscionable," said Seth Godin, Yahoo's former vice president for direct marketing. "It's a bad thing, and it's bad for business. They would be better off sending offers to a million people who said they want to receive a coupon each day than to send them to 10 million people and worry about whether you have offended them by finally going too far." While at Yahoo, Mr. Godin published "Permission Marketing" (Simon & Schuster, 1999), which argued that marketing messages should be sent only to people who ask to see them.
Both Yahoo and Excite say they are not loosening their privacy policies, just making them more explicit. In the past, both companies simply asked users to check a box authorizing the Web sites to "contact" them with marketing messages. The sites assert that such wording did not rule out mail and telephone contacts in addition to e-mail messages.
Privacy experts say such a legalistic interpretation of the privacy policy is at best misleading because, in practice, almost all contact from the sites has been by e-mail. "It's unfair," said Mark Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "People thought they were going to get e-mail solicitations. They didn't expect that their dealings with Yahoo would cause them to receive phone calls."
Both Yahoo and Excite say they have not actually used users' phone numbers for any marketing programs so far and have made relatively few mailings to members.
Other sites have been much more liberal in renting customer names. America Online, the biggest Internet service, has long rented customer addresses, and it also calls users to promote its services and those of its business partners. Lycos, the big Internet portal, and CNET's ZDNet, a technology site, also rent users' names through mailing-list brokers.
For example, Direct Media, a mailing list broker in Greenwich, Conn., offers access to 2.9 million Lycos users at a cost of $125 per thousand names for a single mailing. (An extra $15 per thousand lets marketers select users showing an interest in a topic like cats or gambling.) Advertisers typically pay for the right to send a single mailing or make a single phone call to a name on a list they rent; they do not own the information outright.
Stephen J. Killeen, the United States president of Terra Lycos (news/quote), the parent of the Lycos portal, said mailing list rentals were a small but growing part of its marketing revenue. It does not yet rent phone numbers, a service that has a smaller market. "We look at ourselves as a way to match the right consumer with the right product, whatever the medium," Mr. Killeen said. "A lot of advertisers are looking at the Internet as part of integrated marketing campaigns."
The privacy policy of Microsoft (news/quote)'s MSN portal lets it send mail and make phone calls to customers on behalf of advertisers, but it has yet to do so. Microsoft lets users specify whether they do not want marketing via e-mail, postal mail or phone.
"We value our customers' privacy," said Brian Gluth, a senior product manager at MSN, "and we have never changed a customer's preference of opt-in or opt-out, like some of our competitors have done."
In many ways the Internet is simply joining the mainstream of American business, where the names of people who subscribe to magazines and who buy from catalogs are freely traded.
Steven Sheck, the president of Infinite Media, a mailing list broker in White Plains, said he was seeing an increase in the number of Web sites renting access to users' names.
"Given the state of the economy," he said, "Internet companies are looking at their customer lists as an asset with which they can generate revenue."
Yahoo says its move to send mail and make calls to users on behalf of advertisers is far more limited than simply renting its customer file to companies with no relationship to Yahoo. It compares itself with American Express (news/quote), which has long sent offers to cardholders for its own services, like insurance, and for those of other companies, like airlines and department stores.
"To the extent we have been successful," said Lisa Nash, Yahoo's director of consumer and direct marketing, "it's because we have been extremely respectful of our users' time. We fully plan to continue that." She said the company had no immediate plans to start telemarketing programs, but she added, "We intend to have maximum flexibility."
Ms. Nash said, however, that Yahoo's biggest objective in its new policy was to give it more freedom to sell its own services rather than those of its advertisers. Yahoo has been trying to recover from the slowdown in online advertising by introducing a raft of new fee-based offerings, like online games and expanded e-mail services.
Unlike other sites, Yahoo has never asked users specifically if they want to receive information about its own services. Rather, it has asked a single question authorizing it to send both messages for Yahoo services and messages for advertisers (which include Columbia House and the Discover Card, offered by a unit of Morgan Stanley Dean Witter (news/quote)).
Now Yahoo has sent tens of millions of users e-mail messages saying that it has given itself permission to send messages on behalf of its own services. Users have 60 days to go to a section of the site (subscribe.yahoo.com/showaccount) and reject such messages in 13 categories -- one by one. The categories range from games to job hunting.
The distinction between messages from Yahoo and those from advertisers is not always clear because many companies do business under the Yahoo umbrella. Yahoo's travel channel, for example, is largely a Yahoo-brand version of the Travelocity (news/quote) online travel agent. Similarly, a message about back-to-school specials on Yahoo's shopping channel, for example, could well be paid advertising from some of the more than 10,000 stores in Yahoo's online mall.
"We believe in the products and services we offer," said Srinjia Srinivasan, vice president and editor in chief at Yahoo. "Our network has grown so much we want to tell users about them."
Truste, a nonprofit group financed by Internet companies that creates standards for privacy policies, agreed to endorse Yahoo's move after an extended discussion with the company. "I would not call what Yahoo did `best practices,' " said Fran Maier, the group's executive director. "To the extent possible, you would like companies to honor the preferences that were previously set by the users. But on the other hand, we don't want to tell companies they can't do something when their business strategy changes. We have to balance those things."
They just dont sell old movies, and over packed theme parks.
I lived for 2 years in Orlando, Fl... seat of the Disney/Eisner Kingdom...
Let me tell you something... Disney owns EVERYTHING. They have a 10billion dollar a year general aquisition fund, for buy NON-Disney like companies...
Though you may not like them the Cristian Coalition also tried to boycott Disney... they failed miserably..
BTW: Disney is not all bad. They were one of the first major coroporations to offer benifits to same sex couples. (since this message will be archived for the next Gazillion years on Google, I should probably mention I'm not gay) And they do a heck of allot of charity. Just because they don't GET tech doesn't make them evil, just a little (or a lot) slow.
Could FreshMeat make money by offering premium d/l service? I know I'd pay good money to be able to download the latest kernel patches and distro releases in a timely fashion. FreshMeat is in a unique position that for a small fee they could offer up the LARGEST collection of OpenSource downloads in the world. Note: They could also offer a premium, developer-site-cacheing, so that subscribers can see the dev-site even when they are down or defunct.
NewsForge? Same as slashdot I guess.
Sourceforge could also charge for premium d/l and maybe even advanced features, like nightly CVS/RPM builds, or automatic notification of subscribers when an update is released.
OSDN's job site could always make a good buck in the (I hope) recovering economy.
A Slashdot PAC would also be a good fundraiser (so long as some of the money is spent to counter bribe M$)
Heck, they could even sell tickets to TacoBob's wedding!!
ok: Let's say you get past robot security. Let's say slashdot leaves you alone. Let's say freeslashdot.org is popular.
Well... freeslashdot is going to get SLAMMED by hits just like slashdot... and not long after freeslashdot is either going to be shut down for not paying their bandwidth fees, or it wont be free for much longer.
Besides, Slashdot has been good to us. The least you can do is look at some extra ad's to keep them in buisness. (or better yet you COULD subscribe)
If this is how they do it, the DMCA would be a HUGE boon for forign manufacturers. Most forign companies are primarily going to be interested in the USA markets. Sony can shut some one out just by putting them on a list? Would such a company have any legal recourse? Could they sue in there own contries? Could they apeal to US courts? If so companies like Sony could do REAL damage to their emerging competition.
Companies like MS could even delclare forign products "piraticle" and have them banned.
Granted this is far-flung, but couldn't MS do the same thing by declaring Mandrake Gaming Eddition a "piraticle" product, since it interfaces with their API's without their permission?
Even the windows OS is complicated and buggy. But it just goes to show, users don't really want simple (if they did they'd by Mac), they want what they already know.
It's gonna be a long hard trip.
Let's keep shoveling.
Slashdot Mirror
"Once again this is the israeli point of view. If you listen to other people they seem to have a different recollection of what happened."
This is also the point of view of the last 2 presidents of the united states, as well as the state department (the State Departement is rarely pro-israel). Furthermore it's the view of both the house and senet with a total of one senator and 22 house representatives desenting. All of these people are much closer to what happend at Camp David than any of us, and they have stated and voted in public that the facts I stated are true.
The palastinians point of view on camp david is irelevent. They also believe that jews back the blood of arab children into matzah, that the protocols of zion are actually true, and that it was the mosad that blew up the WTC. Their media sources make ours look positivley upright. They live in a place of state controled media, and rampant bias so extream that they actually told them that the IDF was droping pigs from the sky to eat up their crops and starve them out... the palastinian POV is therefore some what suspect.
"They blame Barak for lying to them and then stabbing them in back."
How did Barak stab them in the back? I have never been able to figure this out. Barak offered more than any other PM in history, and far more than anyone in the international community expected. How could he have stabed them in the back?
"There is nothing preventing israel from lifting the occupation unilatirally"
There is a daying. "If the Arabs put down their weapons their would be peace. If the Israelies put down their weapons there would be no Israel."
A Palastine formed on land less than maximalist demand will end up in another Sheba Farms episode. (every nation on earth has, including most of the Arab ones said that Sheba farms (3 acres) was part of Israel, but Hizbola says they have to keep killing to drive the israelies out).
A Palastine formed with no treaties for arms limitations will result in a staging area for a full out war against Israel.
The palastinians don't want west bank and gaza, they want israel, all of it. And they wont stop till they have it all. Religiously they cant. It's considered Wakf. All land ever owned by muslims can never be returned or sold.
" It's been decades since the israeli army starting occupying the palestenians if they didn't want to they could have ended this at any time. They never have and I submit that that's because they don't want to. "
They did pull out. Under the Oslo agreement. By 1998 95% of all Palastinians were under PA rule.
"A healthy palestenian economy will have devestating effects on the israeli position."
This is as oposed to endless suicide bombers? The number of wholes in this theory are countless. The biggest is that the only source for cheap labor are the palasnians. Palastinian labor hasn't been in major use for nearly a year. Most unskilled labor now comes from India, Russia, and the pacific rim. Cheap labor isn't hard to find, anywhere in the world. It's a sad fact of life. But if what you say is true, then America must be doing the same thing to Guatamala and Mexico, since most of our unskilled labor comes from them.
The bulk of Israels economy comes from skilled labor, diamonds, technology, agro-tech, biotech and medical export. Agroculture comes in pretty low on the list, and there is very little manufacturing industry in israel, it is almost all outsource to Europe. Most Palastinian labour was used for construction (of those blasted settlements!!), janitorial and taxi driver positions. Not exactly the kind of dependency that would warnt the kind of conspiracy your talking about.
Besides, there are hundreds of thousands of either unempoyed or under paid (avg $600 a month with a family of 6) jews that would be happy to do the work.
"As for the standard of living I highly doubt the israeli arabs have a higher standard of living then the people in abu dhabi, kuwait, or even saudi arabia."
The average income for Saudi Arabia is $32 a week, which has decliend more than 300% in the last 20 years. Women are treated like slaves, and are legaly the property of their husbands/fathers.
Kuwait &Abu Dahbi are welfare economies with 95% of the population recieving money from the state. Neither country has any industrie other than Oil export (realisticaly). Welfare economies dont' count, since standard of living includes freedom of entreprenuership.
In Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, & Abu Dhabi women are not allowed to vote or stand for election, nor can they decide whether or not to be married or divorced. Killing your wife is not considered murder, and is punishable by a maximum of 3 years. When I said standard of living I meant for men AND WOMEN!
Also Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, & Abu Dhabi have no REAL democracy. In the rare cases that they can elect someone you can either vote for only one person, or the person you do vote for has no power in the goverment. They are ALL Patriarcal Monarchies.
Lastly is the most condeming part, a Palastinian shop owner living in Jeruselam area B circulated a petition to the PA asking that they be left under Israeli jurisdiction when the PA's status is finalized. Before the shop owner was shot 6 times in a the chest, he had collected over 2,000 signitures. I'm looking for the name. The article is now over 2 years old and a little tough to find. Will get back to you.
"Hopefully the war crimes tribunal will act and hold him responsible."
He was already tried, and exonerahed by the UN war crimes tribunal 20 years ago. Unfortunatley the world community has no double jepordy laws like the US, he's being tried by the EU in absentee, that didn't exist at the time. Wow... I can't believe that's even legal!!
"Oh man that's a funny one. I laughed so hard when I read this. But then again they have a built in excuse to kill the palestenians and take their land they simply claim that god promised that land to the jews ans voila kill with a clear conscience. Nice heh?"
Go pick up a Talmud, it's how this argument started. Talmud is THE book of jewish law. And it states bluntly that you may not kill wontonly in a war of expansion. Furthermore you are not allowed to retake Israel in an any war of expansion. The only exception is for defense. Any teritory gained in an act of self defense is legitmate. However if you have the oportunity to limit your enemies casualties, or allow him to escape, you have to take it.
However Israel is a secular state. These rules only apply if the ultra-right wingers take office. (since in israel the right wing is generaly relgious, and they are compeled to abide by Talmudic law)
"It will be bloody as hell and the mass murder of palestenians by the israelis will forever be compared to the treatment of jews"
Unless you lost family, or were yourself in the Nazi camps, I would please ask you to refrain from commenting on them. You simply don't have the right. And yes, holocost victims (jewish or otherwise) DO have an exclusive on this!!
There is NO equivilancy to what Hitler did to the Jews. Hitler would not allow even one jew to live, or to escape. And I have proven over and over that Israel has tried to make peace, and even risked the lives of it's own sons and daughters to avoid hurting palastinian civilians. Even the gethoization of the Palastinians is done to them by thier own, not by the israelies.
In the holocost the Jews weren't allowed to run. We tried. We ran everywhere we could find a spare place. But we were sent back at the point of a barel to the concentration camps. Not just by the Nazie's but by the US, British, Canadians, Russians, Italians, Spanish, French, and every other nation on earth save the Chinise and Brazilians. When the Allies carpet bombed ever inch of germany, they wouldn't bomb the railways to the concentration camps, because it was a strategic advantage that the Nazi's wasted resources against the Jews. No one would defend us. No one would take us in. And when that wasn't enough they helped to kill us. That is what Israel is for! Never Again, means that NEVER again will jewish blood be cheap. Israel was created to defend jews where ever in the world they may be. And that is what Israel is doing!
If the Palastinians realy thought they were going through another holocoust then they can run! Because that's what we did. But they aren't going through that, and it isn't as horific, because no sane human would stay and be slautered like that (The Shoa)! They are surrouned by culturaly IDENTICLE countries, where they could live in peace! Before 1973 both Syria and Jordan claimed to be the actual "Palastinians". In situations like the holocost people run. They aren't running. Where there is smoke there is fire. There is no smoke, and certainly no evidence of genocide.
Europeans still feel guilty for the holocost, that's why they lay this claim on Israel. Because if the jews are as bad as them, then they have no reason to feel guilty for their complicity.
Yes you have the right to defend yourself against opression. But not against inocent civilians. You have the right to your land. But no plot of land is worth a human life. And if given the option between resorting to terrorism, and loosing.. you have the right to loose.
"I have seen coverage of Israeli fighters launching missiles into crowded citites, helicopter gunships strafing inside citites, and tanks shelling inside of cities"
.. " 1) lift the occupation. Pull out all troops to the border, seal it off and let the palestenians be. 2) Agree on a date on which palestine will be an independent state.
:)
So you missed the parts where the helcopter hovers over head for 3 hours with a megaphone saying get out were going to blow this building up? I'm not kidding they do this. Not every time. Especialy not when they plan to fire a missle in and take out one or two guys. But usually (and yes there have been exceptions) they warn of the attack ahead of time. CNN doesn't like to mention this, so check multiple sources, some where in the middle is the truth.
"If that is true"
Since it is unwilling to do either one I will not believe you when you say they don't want to babysit the palestenians."
They did. Camp David, 1998. for 7 years preceding that 95% of all palastinians, 40% of the west bank, and 97% of the gaza strip were under exclusive PA control. At Camp David Barak (who the arab press still calls a Butcher, though I have no idea why) and Clinton offered all that pluss 100% of gaza and 95% of the west bank, pluss israels only oil wells, natural water springs, land in israel proper, 3/4 of Jeruselam, and internationalization of the TempleMount to make up for the missing 5%. Arafat walked away without any discussion or counter offer. To quote President Bill Clinton, refering to Camp David "Arafat made a fool of me."
Israel did exactly what you asked for. It's in writing. You can look up further details on the agreement. It was even endorsed by the President of the United States.
"First of all it's illegal under international law."
Yeah... better a few die while breaking the law than millions of lemmings to their deaths by adhering to it's letter. And make no mistake, when talking about this conflict, the present casualty numbers are nothing compared to the real stakes, which are in the millions.
The old phrase: "If you could have shot Hitler before he came to power. would you?", Arafat and his PA are just getting warmed up.
"They do this to keep the palestenians poor and destitue which supplies them with a ready stream of cheap labor to clean their toilets and to bus their tables. It's all calculated."
So I suppose it's also big Jewish conspiracy that Israeli-Arabs have the highest living standards of any Arab group in the entire middle east (baring oil princes, who hoard their money, instead of feeding their starving people). It's probably also a massive plot that Israel kept giving money to the PA untill nearly a year into the war? Oh and my other favorit plot is that it was the jews who kept he palastinians poor during the 20 years they were under Jordainian rule!
There is not one industrialized Arab nation on earth. Nor is their a arab democracy. Or any muslim or arab country that alows palastinians to have a job within their borders. But this is also a plot by those crafty israeli's to keep the palastinian down, and working for cheep.
" they want to remove the palestenians from that land."
problem. Were not talking about one indigenous peoples, and a european invader. These are two indigenous peoples (counting back 300 years). Now if you want to have a pissing contest on who's more indiginous fine. But your going to loose, 'cause I have british, ottoman, and roman historacle records on hand. (not the originals, I need to save up more money for that
Besides much of the land that Palastinians claim as their own was purchased by jews while under ottoman and british mandate goverments. This land was taken from them in 1948, and no one has offered it back since.
"1) Sharon completes his genocide."
Sharon didn't have anything to do with Sabra and Shlita, he just doesn't care enough about muslims to do it. (actually Arab-Christians did the butchering to Arab-Muslims) Quite frankly he neither likes nor hates muslims. He never cared about them at all. So he just ignored the report of what was going on. As far as he was concerned it was just the christians getting back at the muslims for what had been done to them for the last thousand years. That's negligence not homicide, and even the act it's self doesn't qualify as genocide, it was done against a relgious group, by it's own race. Unless the butchers of Sabra and Shlita commited suicide it's not genocide. (actually the term is xenocide)
And I should also mention, under jewish law your not allowed to kill the palastinians to take their land. The only reason you can kill is for self defense (using mandatory draft, it's complicated).
"3) Jesus comes back."
Just in case some one relgios is reading.
It's odd that the Torah (old testament) starts off with a story of creation. Now adays we take it for granted, of course you should start a book about G_d and the world by describing the begining of it. But the problem is that the Torah isn't in cronological order to begin with. And besides it's a book of laws, not stories. The answere given by sages is that the reason why the Torah starts out with G_d creating the world is so that everyone will understand that it belongs to him, not us, and whom ever he decides to give the land of Israel to, it's his to give.
sorry for the religious diatribe. But if anyone thinks Jeasus is coming back, this is a big point.
"4) United states puts it's foot down "
Then what happens when the US leaves?
This is what the US did in '79 between Egypt and Israel. Now the US gives 6 billion every year to Israel and Egypt (even split). But when the US pulled out it's troops from the Sinai (down to 23 now) the Egyptions started smuggling weapons over the border, agrivating the situation.
"Like you said peace is not possible."
It's possible, just not in any sort of pleasent way. Whether there will be Peace or War it's going to be a bloody one.
One of the greatest leaders of the jewish people (no matter how controversial, especialy after his death) in recent years was Menachem Mendel Schnereson (and you thought it was hard to pronounce Moshe?) was once aproached by a man who came to him and said "Thankyour Rebbi, but I have to admit, I don't believe in god." to which he replied "The same god you don't believe in I don't beleive in either."
The moral of the story? Contrary to popular beliefe most of the world does not bleive that Jeasus has any devine nature. Nor does most of the world believe that G_d is an old man with a beard. Those who do believe that are free to do so, that's what makes the world great.
But you need to remember that to the majority of the world your idea of the god, and the reasons you don't believe, do not apply in any way to the rest of the world's faiths.
yeah yeah yeah.. Rashi, 5762 years + 6 days...
Ram Bam.. on and on and on..
I know, you know, but in the end he has to explain it to everyone else while standing on one foot.
And any short answere sounds like apologetics, no matter how many times you point out that your evidence predates darwin.
Besides, Moshe isn't going to convince any athiests with a 10 quesiton interview on Slashdot.
For the most part your right.
Both sides are guilty. (I'm not even getting in to the Sharon thing, I don't think he's a war criminal, but he should have been dishonarably discharged for criminal negligence)
Israel does not make it it's intent to kill civilians, if it does it does so accidentialy. Do acidentaly injured or killed people deserve compensation? Probably depending on their complicity, and in the middle east that can be a tough thing to figure out. And right now they couldn't pay anyhow, because the EU has trashed their economy (but sending weapons to Iran is ok?)
Israel goes in because it has to. Israelie's have NO desire to babysit the Palastinians, and no want to risk the lives of their sons and daughters to police them. Remember this whole thing started AFTER Arafat turned down national soverenty at Camp David. (at the time of Camp David 95% of desputed territory was under PA rule. Most areas hadn't seen an IDF soldier in 5 years)
Israel assasinates Palastinian leaders? Yeah, they do. Personaly I think it's better to take out the leader of a riot, than to gun down the crowd. I also think they just need one more asasination... (now this is MY oinion)
Torture... can't disagree one bit. Sucks. It's cruel and shows a lack of efficiency. I would try to defend it if I thought it actually did more good than harm. But drugs can be so much faster, and are relatively more humane.
Holding without trial. True, israel lacks the US's bill of rights, but this is the case in most countries. Also this is standard operating procedure in the PA too. It's not a justification, but it does explain the situation in the middle east as a whole.
The problem is that now you have two bad neighboors.
The Israeli's at least show more intrest in building up an economy and living confortably, it's leverage and can be used to make them good neighboors.
On the other hand, the palastinians stand a snowballs chance in the Negev of building any sort of infastructure, furhtermore the PA has spent the last 8 years shoving hate literature down childrens throughts. Even if they totaly relplaced the PA, you would still have to deal with a hostile neighboor, who's poor and pissed and looking for a target to take out their anger. Compounded with blockd of non-contiguous teretory, other arab countries smuggling in weapons, and the fact that they still think that all of land between the jordan and the mediterainian is theirs.
The second one Palastian fires a rocket over the border, Israel will react with "Never Again" mode, and go way beyond what any other nation would consider normal. (the Holocost may be history to you, but to Jews it never ended, and Israel is the first line of defense)
My point is that peace may not be possible. Both sides harbour hate and fear of eachother in a way neither of us can understand.
When I was the president of my highschools computer club, we ran a fund raiser. after school for 50 cents students could come in and Doom their hearts out (or any other game) on the network. Made a heck of allot of money that way.
We were shut down after about a month when they caught onto us. (never did get a good reason why we couldn't)
You know, I was going along with this thread thinking, "TLC, there are two sides to every story. You, your biased. And this debate may give you the opportunity to see the other side." Thanx for proving me wrong on at least one count.
I've given you facts, dates, UN friggen statistics. I can even back them up with a bibliography if you choose to ask. All you are doing is making some assumed, and emotional, alegations. PROVE IT!! Because the stuff your saying sounds allot more like propoganda from where I'm sitting. Please prove me wrong.
If you'd actualy be reading you would have seen that I'm not trying to justify anything. Israel screwed up, even they admit that. But just like the palastinians they are in a tough situation and doing things that only desperate people would do. Both sides are under attack.
You for your part are obviosly starting from a heavily biased POV. You keep bringing up israeli torture and shootings. Palistinians do that too. They even get parades in their honor if they do it a whole lot. BTW: do you think the PA will make this kind of restitution too?
You are also making a BIG assumption that this is the "Palastinian's Land". Sorry to break it to you charly but it's as much their land as it is England's or Frances. They don't even have a historical record. The first recorded use of the word "Palastinian" to represent a national identity was 1973, by none other than Arafat. Ironicaly arabic doens't even have a "P" sound, the name Palastinian was chosen for political purposes, the asumtion of identity with the land. (I always think it's cute to hear Arafat call his people "the Balastinian Beapol"). If they do have an unique identiy apart from other indigionous mulsims, I'm trying to find out. But funny me I beleive in research somehting before I take a pasionet stand on it.
It's a little hard to defend your country from people who have sworn a blood oath to wipe you out, without shooting them. Oh other's have tried... but handing floowers to the nice gentelman making bombs just makes him laugh. Most studies have shown that the most effective way to stop an attacker from killing you is a large caliber rifel shot, between his eyes.
The Israeli's are under attack. And quite frankly I don't care who started it!!! It started frigging 80 years ago!! The point is both sides are under attack and both sides have a right to self defense. But neither side has the right to target non-combatants. If they do then so be it.
(BTW: Have you heard anything about how they will determine who was rongfully hurt in afganistan? And seing as how the average afgani makes less than a dollar a week, what the hell are they going to do with $10,000? that's about a 300 year salary over night. Sounds like a quick way to make a couple people really rich, really fast.
Also since you think the US's behavior is so noble, do you realize who they are putting back in power? The same people that the taliban kicked out in the first place! Not because the taliban are religios nuts, they are. But because the former goverment was going on genocidal rampages and killing people. We may not like the taliban, hell the Afgani's and the rest of the world may not like them. But when they took power they were hailed as heros, for liberating that country from opression. Let it be a lesson, it's no good to trade one dictator for another, even if the new one is your own.)
Look I'm doing my best to be open minded about this, care to give a little of the same back?
First, this thing has got very little to do with relgion. I know it sounds weird. But the fact of the matter is that neither the Israelis or the Palastinians are all that religious. Yeah, we see CNN shots of mosques and men with long beards (both sides
It's the forward looking that's really killing us too (as well as the back looking). Israeli's are largley decendent from holocost survivors, and Jews in general have a very long memmory. When Palastinians go marching down the street chanting "Death to Jews" it does not fill Israeli's with compasion and sympathy for their plight.
Likwise, when border guards humiliate palastinians who are just trying to make a living and support their faimlies over stupid bigotries. It doesn't help to calm the situation.
I will never claim that Israel is inocent. They aren't. But then again Israel is not a monoculture hell bent on the destruciton of all non jews. Some factions are nazi-ish lunatics, others camp out side border patrolls to take notes and video tape IDF violations.
On compensation, your sorley mistaken. Not only has humanitarian aid been shipped into Jenin and the west bank, but Israeli hospitals have been taking palastinian wounded since the begining. Health officials sent over a hundred thousand huff 'n mouth vacinations to the PA. During the seige at Ramalah, the IDF supplied not only basic supplies but cigarettes and toiletries (not much good the water was cut). Furthermore the FIRST country to send humanitarian aid to Afganistan was not Saudi, America, France or GB, it was Israel.
1) Arafat was elected 8 years ago. But no one else was running against him. There have been no elections since, despite calls from a palastian "senet" for new elections for the last 4 years.
2) 90% of israeli arabs voted FOR Sharon. It's whole debate just trying to figure this one out.
3) None of this would have happend in the first place if Arafat didn't through away Camp David. Barak was anything but bloodthirsty, and defied the vast majority of his own people and offered even Jeruselam!!
"Ocupation vs Defense"
BOTH sides are defending them selves. Israeli's are being attacked too.
Like I said, since no Palastian state has ever existed, and Jordan relinquished all claims to the west bank, there is not Ocupation. You have a refugee problem, but again Israel isn't alone in this (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt all have refugee camps originating in 1948)
The world? Who partel should represent the world?
The UN? All regional actions are handled by the the Regional Security council. In wich israel is allowed no vote (since it would need to be voted in), and is controled entirley by countries that have had a declared a state of war with israel for over 50 years! (eceptions to Egypt and Jordan). (side note, the UN has never condemed anyone who attacked Israel, and it's a long list)
How about France? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!! (oh I needed a good laugh!) I'll be old and gray before I can list all the problems with that.
England? They created this mess in the first place. Besides their still ocupying Ireland.
Oh even better, how about brining in Saudi Arabia, yeah thats great. We can listen to them talk about peace in english while they broadcast TV stations into Israel, in arabic, on how to make bombs from house hold materials.
Egypt? No. They founded the PLO!
How about someone with no vested intrests? China? No, besides some of the worst human rights violations on record, they have arms deals with Israel.
Humiliation is not grounds for murdering civilians. Last I checked children sitting in school or nursing from their mother's never humilated an Palastinian.
BTW: I chalange you to prove that anything Israel has done to the Palastinians is unique. i.e. is not done by surounding countries with minority arab poplulations. (a hint, this is a violent area of the world, with or without Israel)
Or better yet, since your educated more than I on the palastian point of view. What the heck is a palastinian?
If you want to check for propganda please do, but provide some sort of proof that this is untrue or that I have skewed the facts.
the above were facts, and are available in any public record. My interpretation was of course slanted. But what facts in particular do you take issue to? What do you feel I omitted?
When it comes to the middle east, nothing is simple, and everything is about history.
1) Up until Intefada II Israel had pulled out of 95% of "Palestinian Territories". At that time, this most recent mess started, it could hardly be refereed to as a military occupation. Also consider the region for a moment; Syria "Occupies" Lebanon presently and shoots anyone who brings the subject up, but no one protests them. Under the 1949 armistice between Israel and Jordan, Jordan stipulated that the borders of Judea/Sumeria were NOT national boundaries but war time boundaries and subject to change. Hence, Jordan was also occupying the west bank (I guess that would be their east bank...). Both the Jordanians past treatment of the Palestinians and Syria's treatment of it's own citizens, the Lebanese and their own Palestinian refugees makes Israel look like a Palestinian pleasure resort.
Does this justify Israel's treatment of the Palestinians? No. But it puts it in perspective. This is "Normal" for the region. And you can't expect anyone to switch to an "enlightened" western view over night.
2) It's awful that the Palestinians don't like being occupied. But you know what... that doesn't justify killing civilians, women, children, and whole families. I'm not talking about accidentally killing innocents. I'm talking about walking into high schools and kinder gardens with rifles and unloading. Nothing justifies this, nothing.
3) First, those settlements are legal. Second, most of the land and cities that the Palestinians live in now, belonged to Jews who were forced off their land ILEGALY in 1948, no one has asked for it back. Third, no one ever talks about Palestinian settlements, yes they do the same thing as the Israeli's. Each one is trying to lay claim to as much land as they can before the borders are finalized. Since their has never been a Palestinian state there are no "original" borders to work from, so it's a land grab by both sides.
4) Israel does reserve the right to retaliate and defend it's self, furthermore it reserves the right to hunt down any terrorists that are not being detained by their host countries. Just like big brother USA.
First the US asked the Taliban to arrest Osama Bin Laden and Alquada, the US waited less than 2 months. Israel asked the PA to reign in Hamas, Fatah, the PFLP, etc. and waited 7 years, during witch time over 2000 Israelis died in terrorist attacks.
Then the US went in and carpet bombed what was left of Afghan cities, exacting unknown death tolls, but according to US senators the death toll was in multiples of 9/11. The reasoning for this action was to avoid any further loss of life to US soldiers. Israel went in on the ground (though they had the capacity for carpet bombing) and did everything they could avoid civilian casualties, including telling the terrorists (as well as the general public) when and where they would be operating 3 hours in advance to give innocents an opportunity to evacuate. So effective are the Israelis at this, that when they went into a situation like Jenin, with booby traps and human shields, in a civilian neighborhood, that even the Palestinian Gov't admits to less than 60 casualties, mostly non-civilian.
The US expected a bunch of backwater thugs to round up and arrest one of the most advanced terrorist networks in the world. Israel asked the PA to round up specific individuals, while the PA was claiming a "Police Force" larger than any other in the world per capita.
The Palestinian people are not evil. Neither is Israel. The villain is the PA (aka PLO) which has made the Palestinians even poorer then when they started, and filled them with so much hate that this war may take generations to end.
A) What the heck does this have to do with linux development??
B) Jews have been living in Israel continuously since 1500BCE (BC), mostly with the blessings of the Ottoman empire. Return in earnest began in aprox 1880CE (AD). Up until the Balfour Declaration (November 2nd, 1917), Muslims and Jews lived in peace, and there was already a substantial Jewish population present. Soon after this the rioting started. (I'm not saying there weren't any problems before hand, but nothing out of the ordinary for the time period). Under the Balfour declaration alone, the land as legally GIVEN to the nation of Israel, without conflict (since the owner of the time was Great Britain). GB reneged on it's promise and signed it's name to UN proposition 181 (November 29, 1947) that repartitioned the land between the Jordan river into 2 NON-Contiguous states. One was an Arab state, to be given to Arabs already living in this region (not called Palestinians at the time), the other was a Jewish state. While most European countries ratified the agreement, none of the then 27 Muslim countries (which now make up the ENTIRE regional security council) in the region approved it. 181, was never ratified. Never the less, in compliance with UN rules regarding colonial holdings, GB pulled out entirely from the region, leaving over 90% of its entrenchments and weapons in the hands of Muslim countries, despite repeated declarations of intent to go on a genocidal rampage and wipe out any Jews found in then Palatine. When the dust settled, the region took on what is now called the pre-1967 boundaries.
Up until this point, it is incontestable that all actions in the creation of a state of Israel were STRICTLY DEFENSIVE. Which is not only permitted under Jewish law but REQUIRED. Few western authorities take issue with any of these points. Up until this point in time, Israel is CLEARLY in the legal right. And it's mostly the UN/GB and Israel's bad neighbors who are held to blame.
The issues start in 1967, when after several months of blockades by Egypt, and military build ups by Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon along Israel's borders, Israel initiated open hostilities against Egypt, to end the blockade. Under international law, naval blockades are considered an act of war. So who started the war is at issue. But the bottom line is that for the first few hours it was just Egypt and Israel slugging it out. Egypt was loosing bad. In the first 5 minuets (since Israel did STRIKE first) most of Egypt's air force had been destroyed while still on the ground. Egypt contacted Jordan and told Jordan that Egypt was winning the fight, and that a second front would cause the Israeli army to collapse. Jordan then fired on Israel, initiating hostilities with Israel. The outcome of those wars can be seen on any map of the present day.
Again the above, while it does present numerous moral issues, is not factually in contest.
Because of the debate over who started conflicts, Israel or Egypt, the Gaza strip is a legitimate area of debate. The West Bank (judea/sumaria) is under every international law, the property of Israel (especially since the treaty was signed between Jordan, the previous owner, and Israel, relinquishing and claims to said territory).
Here's the big issue. When Israel captured the west bank, they inherited a HUGE problem. Domestic Arabs living in the Judea Sumeria region, were living in ghettos. Some quarter million of them, this is a condition which had been in place since 1948, when millions of Arabs fled the conflict between revolutionary armies of the then newborn state of Israel, and 7 other allied Arab nations. It is on public record that these residents were asked by their proper governments to flee the area so as not to be hurt during the conflict. Since this time, until 1967 (and indeed until the present day in every middle eastern country except Israel) it had been ILLEGAL for these refugees to leave or work out side of these camps. What ever the motivations of Jordan (at the time Trans Jordan), they had created the refugee camps, rather than allow natural sprawl or integration into their society.
Israel attempted to alleviate the problem by building expansions of these camps into towns, and adding water, electric etc... Even offering full citizen ship to anyone living in the Jerusalem area. Resistance cell's quickly formed amongst the Arabs of Judea/Sumeria, now officially calling themselves Palestinians (which before 1948 referred to anyone jew/christian/muslim born in this region). Intimidation of moderates became the norm for both sides. Routine claims were made by both Jordan and Syria claiming that culturally Palestinians belonged to them. Raising serious issues about the validity of nation hood for an non-distinct culture that already has national independence in a bordering location.
Israel's treatment of the Palestinians has since been less than spectacular. IDF soldiers are drafted, so the entire spectrum of society is present in the military. From the well educated, to the... well... the Israeli equivalent of trailer trash. It's this trailer trash which is usually put on duty in the "Territories". Whether this is intentional by the IDF or the result of political strings being pulled by soldiers who's parents can afford to have them posted safer places is also a matter for debate.
Baring Jerusalem and Hevron, "Jewish settlements" do not displace domestic Arab populations, and are there for legal under international law.
With respect to Jerusalem and Hevron, both were predominately Jewish cities before 1948, when they were driven out by Jordanian forces, neither city has reached it's pre-1948 Jewish population, nor has any property lost during that war been returned to it's former owners. But that was 54 years ago, and most people who live there now have no memory of their properties previous owners or how it was acquired. This brings up major issues of how long a displaced peoples should be allowed to maintain their claim to their land.
Bottom line. It's not a simple situation, it can't be explained while standing on one foot. It takes weeks worth of research just to get a fledgling idea of what this conflict is about.
However this also isn't some ancient conflict stretching back beyond history. The records are recent, detailed and available to anyone who can find and use a library. Note: I recommend NOT using the Internet to do research for this... emotions are running way to high, and so is misinformation.
A) Orthodox Jewdiasm does not care one way or another about technology. It's neither evil nor good. It's a tool.
B) Divorce issues in Orthodoxy mostly revolve around a woman's right to initiating/demanding the seperation. But this has nothing to do with technology and far less to do with Linux development.
C) The proper authority isn't a programmer who studies Talmud. The proper authority is an internationaly respected rabbi, who programs.
Although I am trying to find holes in Microsoft's EULA, that would prohibit Orthodox jews from agreeing to it. Now that's a slashdot aplication of Talmud!!
It will be interesting to see which wins out, Metacity or Sawfish. Because this brings up a major issue. With all the corporate support in Linux these days, who carries a bigger voice in development, corporate sponsers with teams of programers or OS hackers with "carismatic" leaders?
I say given Sun's mixed history in OS they probably won't be able to sway GNOME development and will eventually switch back to the mainstream.
(then again, some say Miguel is easily swayed)
As shocking as it sounds, that a company (or "Aliance" of companies") would sue their customers.
And even more shocking that they would persue an institution that, legal copies or not, is cranking out new customers adicted to their products every year.
This will become the norm.
Just like people got used to their computers crashing 4 or 5 times a day, just like people are getting used to having their privacey invaded by not only the goverment but private corporations a well; people will also get used to being audited for software licenses.
That is of course if we let this sleeping dog lie.
Right now companies, goverments, and universities are outraged at being audited. Now is the time to strike, while the iron is hot (wow I'm nocking out cliche's today!)!
First we can get into these places (if they don't through us out first) and evangilize OS.
But more importantly I think allot of our technical know how should go into drafting changeover guidlines and senarios. Set up documentation specificaly targeting different size universities, goverment agencies, and corporations of various sizes. Plans that are detailed and specific to a type of situation. Covering details like hardware repurchases (for non compatible hw), architechture options, software compatibility options, network layouts and RETRAINING plans!! (that includes retraining IT Staff from the ground up)
The only reason an organization would not bail on Microsoft after being attacked like this by MICROSOFT (AKA the BSA), is because they feel like they have no other practicle option. But there is and they NEED to know that. The information needs to be available.
Our house is ready for guests, now we just need to open the door and invite them in.
How hard would it be to figure out (given a fair training cycle) the orientation of a users head?
The human head isn't THAT iregular of a shape(ok some people).
couldn't you also track the movement of key color groupings as the head moves?
This seems cool but:
1) how do you click the mouse? (it would be cool to do it by blinking one eye or the other)
2) I am not sticking a dot to my head. I can barely remember to take my head phones off before I leave my desk (CHOKE!!) I dread the idea of going all afternoon not remembering to take that stupid dot off.
Pressed for profits, Internet companies are increasingly selling access to their users' postal mail addresses and telephone numbers, in addition to flooding their e-mail boxes with junk mail.
.yahoo.com/showaccount) and reject such messages in 13 categories -- one by one. The categories range from games to job hunting.
Yahoo (news/quote), the vast Internet portal, just changed its privacy policy to make it clear that it has the right to send mail and make sales calls to tens of millions of its registered users. And it has given itself permission to send users e-mail marketing messages on behalf of its own growing family of services, even if those users had previously asked not to receive any marketing from Yahoo. Users have 60 days to go to a page on Yahoo's Web site where they can record a choice not to receive telephone, postal or e-mail messages in various categories.
Similarly, when Excite, another big Internet portal, was sold in bankruptcy court late last year, the new owner asked Excite users to accept a privacy policy that explicitly allows it to rent their names and phone numbers to marketing companies. (Those users, too, could check a box on the site to opt out of such programs, if they had not already done so on the old Excite.)
The sites say that direct marketing to their users, both by e-mail and by older means, is an important source of revenue that can help make up for the rapid decline in sales of online advertising.
"It has been our orientation from the beginning to be straightforward with the user," said Bill Daugherty, the co-chief executive of the Excite Network. "They are getting free content and utility that is unparalleled, and in return we will be marketing products to them."
But even many marketing experts say that the risk to the reputations of these companies may outweigh any revenue they may receive.
"What Yahoo has done is unconscionable," said Seth Godin, Yahoo's former vice president for direct marketing. "It's a bad thing, and it's bad for business. They would be better off sending offers to a million people who said they want to receive a coupon each day than to send them to 10 million people and worry about whether you have offended them by finally going too far." While at Yahoo, Mr. Godin published "Permission Marketing" (Simon & Schuster, 1999), which argued that marketing messages should be sent only to people who ask to see them.
Both Yahoo and Excite say they are not loosening their privacy policies, just making them more explicit. In the past, both companies simply asked users to check a box authorizing the Web sites to "contact" them with marketing messages. The sites assert that such wording did not rule out mail and telephone contacts in addition to e-mail messages.
Privacy experts say such a legalistic interpretation of the privacy policy is at best misleading because, in practice, almost all contact from the sites has been by e-mail. "It's unfair," said Mark Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "People thought they were going to get e-mail solicitations. They didn't expect that their dealings with Yahoo would cause them to receive phone calls."
Both Yahoo and Excite say they have not actually used users' phone numbers for any marketing programs so far and have made relatively few mailings to members.
Other sites have been much more liberal in renting customer names. America Online, the biggest Internet service, has long rented customer addresses, and it also calls users to promote its services and those of its business partners. Lycos, the big Internet portal, and CNET's ZDNet, a technology site, also rent users' names through mailing-list brokers.
For example, Direct Media, a mailing list broker in Greenwich, Conn., offers access to 2.9 million Lycos users at a cost of $125 per thousand names for a single mailing. (An extra $15 per thousand lets marketers select users showing an interest in a topic like cats or gambling.) Advertisers typically pay for the right to send a single mailing or make a single phone call to a name on a list they rent; they do not own the information outright.
Stephen J. Killeen, the United States president of Terra Lycos (news/quote), the parent of the Lycos portal, said mailing list rentals were a small but growing part of its marketing revenue. It does not yet rent phone numbers, a service that has a smaller market. "We look at ourselves as a way to match the right consumer with the right product, whatever the medium," Mr. Killeen said. "A lot of advertisers are looking at the Internet as part of integrated marketing campaigns."
The privacy policy of Microsoft (news/quote)'s MSN portal lets it send mail and make phone calls to customers on behalf of advertisers, but it has yet to do so. Microsoft lets users specify whether they do not want marketing via e-mail, postal mail or phone.
"We value our customers' privacy," said Brian Gluth, a senior product manager at MSN, "and we have never changed a customer's preference of opt-in or opt-out, like some of our competitors have done."
In many ways the Internet is simply joining the mainstream of American business, where the names of people who subscribe to magazines and who buy from catalogs are freely traded.
Steven Sheck, the president of Infinite Media, a mailing list broker in White Plains, said he was seeing an increase in the number of Web sites renting access to users' names.
"Given the state of the economy," he said, "Internet companies are looking at their customer lists as an asset with which they can generate revenue."
Yahoo says its move to send mail and make calls to users on behalf of advertisers is far more limited than simply renting its customer file to companies with no relationship to Yahoo. It compares itself with American Express (news/quote), which has long sent offers to cardholders for its own services, like insurance, and for those of other companies, like airlines and department stores.
"To the extent we have been successful," said Lisa Nash, Yahoo's director of consumer and direct marketing, "it's because we have been extremely respectful of our users' time. We fully plan to continue that." She said the company had no immediate plans to start telemarketing programs, but she added, "We intend to have maximum flexibility."
Ms. Nash said, however, that Yahoo's biggest objective in its new policy was to give it more freedom to sell its own services rather than those of its advertisers. Yahoo has been trying to recover from the slowdown in online advertising by introducing a raft of new fee-based offerings, like online games and expanded e-mail services.
Unlike other sites, Yahoo has never asked users specifically if they want to receive information about its own services. Rather, it has asked a single question authorizing it to send both messages for Yahoo services and messages for advertisers (which include Columbia House and the Discover Card, offered by a unit of Morgan Stanley Dean Witter (news/quote)).
Now Yahoo has sent tens of millions of users e-mail messages saying that it has given itself permission to send messages on behalf of its own services. Users have 60 days to go to a section of the site (subscribe
The distinction between messages from Yahoo and those from advertisers is not always clear because many companies do business under the Yahoo umbrella. Yahoo's travel channel, for example, is largely a Yahoo-brand version of the Travelocity (news/quote) online travel agent. Similarly, a message about back-to-school specials on Yahoo's shopping channel, for example, could well be paid advertising from some of the more than 10,000 stores in Yahoo's online mall.
"We believe in the products and services we offer," said Srinjia Srinivasan, vice president and editor in chief at Yahoo. "Our network has grown so much we want to tell users about them."
Truste, a nonprofit group financed by Internet companies that creates standards for privacy policies, agreed to endorse Yahoo's move after an extended discussion with the company. "I would not call what Yahoo did `best practices,' " said Fran Maier, the group's executive director. "To the extent possible, you would like companies to honor the preferences that were previously set by the users. But on the other hand, we don't want to tell companies they can't do something when their business strategy changes. We have to balance those things."
Do you realized how hard it is to boycott Disney?
They just dont sell old movies, and over packed theme parks.
I lived for 2 years in Orlando, Fl... seat of the Disney/Eisner Kingdom...
Let me tell you something... Disney owns EVERYTHING. They have a 10billion dollar a year general aquisition fund, for buy NON-Disney like companies...
Though you may not like them the Cristian Coalition also tried to boycott Disney... they failed miserably..
BTW: Disney is not all bad. They were one of the first major coroporations to offer benifits to same sex couples. (since this message will be archived for the next Gazillion years on Google, I should probably mention I'm not gay) And they do a heck of allot of charity. Just because they don't GET tech doesn't make them evil, just a little (or a lot) slow.
Could FreshMeat make money by offering premium d/l service? I know I'd pay good money to be able to download the latest kernel patches and distro releases in a timely fashion. FreshMeat is in a unique position that for a small fee they could offer up the LARGEST collection of OpenSource downloads in the world. Note: They could also offer a premium, developer-site-cacheing, so that subscribers can see the dev-site even when they are down or defunct.
NewsForge? Same as slashdot I guess.
Sourceforge could also charge for premium d/l and maybe even advanced features, like nightly CVS/RPM builds, or automatic notification of subscribers when an update is released.
OSDN's job site could always make a good buck in the (I hope) recovering economy.
A Slashdot PAC would also be a good fundraiser (so long as some of the money is spent to counter bribe M$)
Heck, they could even sell tickets to TacoBob's wedding!!
ok:
Let's say you get past robot security.
Let's say slashdot leaves you alone.
Let's say freeslashdot.org is popular.
Well... freeslashdot is going to get SLAMMED by hits just like slashdot... and not long after freeslashdot is either going to be shut down for not paying their bandwidth fees, or it wont be free for much longer.
Besides, Slashdot has been good to us. The least you can do is look at some extra ad's to keep them in buisness. (or better yet you COULD subscribe)
Now we don't even have to walk to the vending machines!! Wooo hoo! I can be even more sedentary!!
What is the theory behind segways anyway. Americans don't get much excersize to start with, now we've decided they should waste their time walking?
So you put on that extra 100lb and you need a bigger segway. It's ok, it's all part of the buisness plan!!
Sorry Sony=Sega
If this is how they do it, the DMCA would be a HUGE boon for forign manufacturers. Most forign companies are primarily going to be interested in the USA markets. Sony can shut some one out just by putting them on a list? Would such a company have any legal recourse? Could they sue in there own contries? Could they apeal to US courts? If so companies like Sony could do REAL damage to their emerging competition.
Companies like MS could even delclare forign products "piraticle" and have them banned.
Granted this is far-flung, but couldn't MS do the same thing by declaring Mandrake Gaming Eddition a "piraticle" product, since it interfaces with their API's without their permission?
Has the compnay you bought this from been flaged by Sony as a maker of pirated materials?
How did they know to stop and inspect your package?
If Sony flaged this company/product, you may have no recourse.
Totaly agree!
Even the windows OS is complicated and buggy. But it just goes to show, users don't really want simple (if they did they'd by Mac), they want what they already know.
It's gonna be a long hard trip.
Let's keep shoveling.
Uhh.. about your website...
you do know that MS sell Network licenses?
It's allot cheaper.
Not that I have any problems with MS bashing...
Say using microsoft is dangerous 'cause it leave the city vulnerable to black hat hackers, and terrorists!
... ok that might not work so well.
"They could steal your land from you by changing city records!!"
"Use Linux or the terroists win!"
Run off posters with pictures of Osama bin Laden next to Bill Gates. "If you were an international terroist what OS would you use?"
You could also make a stuffed penguine your running mate (yes I know you don't have running mates for such a position, but it's funny)
"Linux, an OS for the people, by the people" - of Finland... but leave that last part out.
"Linux, if it's good enough for the communists it's good enough for us!"
"Linux is developed by people living right here in our own city! Not some faceless corporation in Redmond Washington!"
If all else fails I agree.. hand pupets.