I've worked for/with some complete losers as well. But rambling, misspelled, ungrammatical rants aren't the way to convince people.
It looked like E was pretty important to RH (new default WM and tightly integrated to GNOME). And Raster was the main E developer. So if he had a problem with a manager, why not go to a higher up and complain? Surely RH is smart enough not to lose the goose that lays the golden eggs.
No, I think it is much more likely that Raster acts in person a lot like his emails paint him out to be--and his manager wanted someone a little more mature to headup a crucial project like a Window Manager for "The People's Distro". The manager probably tried to get Raster to clean up his act (if not his code) and that just "broke the camel's back".
-- "Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
All this seems much ado about nothing. Some guy out there wanted to quit his job so he did. Who really cares? Let the man make his personal decisions in peace.
This celebrity obsession is really tacky and inconsiderate to "Raster".
No offense, but you sound like a manager's worst nightmare. If you write code like you write English (ahem)I wouldn't be surprised to hear the word "festering" used in the same sentence.
Proofreading is like debugging.
-- "Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
From the tone of the argument, the Mac people seem to have developed quite a snooty tone towards "closed" OSs, even though this is what the Mac has historically had, and I would argue still has. Try asking (former) Power Computing employees what they think of Apple's "openness", or should I say "revoke whenever we feel like it" openness.
Listening to all of these "pundits" pontificate about the moral high ground of open-source is nauseating. We're looking at Johnny-come-lately claiming an intellectual heritage of open source software that is nearly twenty years old.
1) MS may have raised barriers to entry (low prices, integration, etc) into various fields (OS and browsers in particular) for the express puposes of causing rival companies (particularly startups like Netscape) would have a disproportionately hard time, so that
2) MS could exploit consumers by raising their prices. And note that "raising prices" doesn't necessarily mean "charging more money". It can also mean "getting less value". I think we can all agree that $1.98 spent on Linux has more value than $100 spent on Win98.
All Justice has to prove is that #1 has already taken place to show that MS is a monopoly. It doesn't matter if #2 has or ever will, because monopolies are inherently illegal.
Now, many of you are going to respond that there are monopolies in many other fields that aren't be prosecuted. True. There are also speeders who don't get caught or do get caught but not ticketed. Usually the judge likes to see that some harm has been done beyond just plain "you broke the letter of the law".
In the case of MS, though, their past behavior shows pretty clearly that they will do some harm when they get the chance. (DR-DOS anyone?) -- "Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
Whatever. Sorry I perturbed your little flaming mind, obviously I struck a nerve. Congratulations on getting lucky and not messing up your computer yet...I know plenty of people who have. Just because you've deluded yourself into worshipping your cheapo celery doesn't mean it has suddenly overcome its inherent technical shortcomings. I don't really see any "sour grapes" at work here...I could overclock my cpu if I wanted to, but I don't, because I don't think it's worth voiding my warrenty and risking downtime in order to gain nothing but bragging rights. The people I know who overclock do it for two reasons:
1. They're cheap/poor. 2. They think it makes them "cool."
Since you claim not to be cheap, I'll assume you're a member of the latter group, which is apparent anyway by your cocky attitude. I personally don't care if you consider yourself a "rebel" or not, but I do think it's ludicris for this article to perpetuate the notion that overclockers are somehow "sticking it to the man." That's nonsense, all they're doing is setting a few jumpers on their motherboards and then bathing in self-centered egotism.
Ma Bell employees are voting, tax paying Americans. Hence some effort will be made to appease them in any ruling. The company will not be broken up, so you can forget that right now.
-- "Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
It doesn't seem to that attacking the FBI website is any smarter than trying to burn down a Police Station. Destroying/damaging government property is minor, but directly attacking a law enforcement agency is grounds for some serious jail time.
Computers didn't get where they are now because everyone followed all the iddy biddy standards that made everyone happy. We need to constantly innovate and explore. If somebody wants to create his operating system the way he see's fit let him and the market decide. We all know honor doesn't work. it puts us in neat little boxes and expects us to behave according to some vague rule nobody really understands
Yes, abuses of the judicial and criminal system are every citizen's business - but there are more drastic abuses that should trouble any of us, like the manner in which death sentences are handed out, and the manner in which parole is granted to violent criminals.
Jon, please don't be so arrogant as to determine for all of us what is important and what isn't. You haven't demonstrated the wit to be my philosopher king just yet.
Yes, abuses of the judicial and criminal system are every citizen's business - but there are more drastic abuses that should trouble any of us, like the manner in which death sentences are handed out, and the manner in which parole is granted to violent criminals.
Jon, please don't be so arrogant as to determine for all of us what is important and what isn't. You haven't demonstrated the wit to be my philosopher king just yet.
This is a really good point & the first time I've heard it anywhere. I find it amazing that so many people immediatly dismissed this article as irrelevant, or repetitive. Are/.'ers so immature that they are unable to cope with the possibility that someone else had an inciteful idea?
Sometime I wonder if/. is completely populated by fruits. This guy didn't read the article, that much is plain. He is spewing out garbage that he doesn't understand. Hackers and crackers are all bad. They ruin things and cause trouble for sys admins. All hackers should be sent to China!
None of this is going to stop people from buying Windows. This whole case is a day late and a dollar short.
Microsoft employees are voting, tax paying Americans. Hence some effort will be made to appease them in any ruling. The company will not be broken up, so you can forget that right now.
As for any ruling making Windows "open source" - big deal. Unless you have ten years to spare, the source isn't going to help you much.
This book provides information that can almost entirely be derived from man pages. It adds very little to system documentation already in place (that any unix user should be comfortable using).
Once again Katz replaces a stereotype with one of his own choosing.
Gee, if I had only known "hackers" (whoever they are) are such great people, I would have invited them to dinner.
By the way - Milken has donated huge sums to the fight against cancer (yes, this is prompted partly by his own battle with it), so please do not paint him with your broad brush. Most people who actually know something about finance will tell you that many of Milken's "junk" techniques revolutionized aspects of corporate finance - and are still in use today.
I hate to bust the overclocker's bubble here, but who really cares? So you're too cheap to buy a good chip, and you decide to pump up a crappy chip so you can get almost as high a clock speed and still have a tiny cache. Does this make you some kind of rebel? I know a guy who keeps a celeron next to his open window with the case off, with several fans blowing on it at all times...is that really worth it, considering that cpu mhz is often not the best indicator of performace, especially in an application like a 3D game (by the way, I really liked that part where the guy has *3* 3D accelerators for "razor sharp graphics," now that was a scream).
How many times has this tired tale played out? The oss coder doesn't like the philosophy of the people he's working for, so rather than try and iron out their differences, he simply leaves. It is no wonder that oss is still second rate in many areas- too often do coders just have fits and go and start their own new versions of a program. If oss coders spent half the energy on actually getting decent stuff written that they did having tantrums about doing it, then we might be in business. Until then, the cold laughter of Redmont will be our only reward.
The point is not that they would close the source. But that they added a killer feature and THEN closed the source.
Remember, the example assumes RH becomes evil. So they come up with some moderately good idea, patent it (evil, remember), stick it in E and release binary only.
Suddenly GPL'd E loses the market and RH becomes MS. -- "Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
...it does matter. The owner of the copyright decides the license.
Example: Let's say RH owns E. Right now E is under the GPL so no big deal. Then RH becomes evil AND has a good idea for a new killer feature for E. They add the feature and re-release E binary only. They can do this because they are the copyright owner. If they were just a licensee then Evil RH is no problem. You can see how this would suck.
In the case of kernel code (particularly from you) it's a little different. First, I believe you contract to RH, do you not? Unless you signed something saying RH owns the code you write they probably don't--you aren't an employee, you are a separate company (although this would be worth looking into). Furthermore, even if they did own the stuff you write/wrote, it's only a small fraction of the total kernel (no offense). With E, we are talking about the whole ball of wax.
Now that I think about it, this is a good reason to worry about any company that collects kernel developers like action figures. If they get enough of them they can release non-GPL'd Linux code... -- "Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
well thats all well and good, but THIS user doesnt want a fancy UI that takes 10 many years to decipher the icons, with fancy xterms that zoom in from random sides of the screen (what an effing waste of code). This user wants something out of the box, with an UI that is not Windows, but can replace Windows in functionality. I guess KDE is the one for me.
Slashdot Mirror
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
I've worked for/with some complete losers as well. But rambling, misspelled, ungrammatical rants aren't the way to convince people.
It looked like E was pretty important to RH (new default WM and tightly integrated to GNOME). And Raster was the main E developer. So if he had a problem with a manager, why not go to a higher up and complain? Surely RH is smart enough not to lose the goose that lays the golden eggs.
No, I think it is much more likely that Raster acts in person a lot like his emails paint him out to be--and his manager wanted someone a little more mature to headup a crucial project like a Window Manager for "The People's Distro". The manager probably tried to get Raster to clean up his act (if not his code) and that just "broke the camel's back".
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
Posted by d106ene5:
All this seems much ado about nothing. Some guy out there wanted to quit his job so he did. Who really cares? Let the man make his personal decisions in peace.
This celebrity obsession is really tacky and inconsiderate to "Raster".
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
No offense, but you sound like a manager's worst nightmare. If you write code like you write English (ahem)I wouldn't be surprised to hear the word "festering" used in the same sentence.
Proofreading is like debugging.
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
Posted by d106ene5:
From the tone of the argument, the Mac people seem to have developed quite a snooty tone towards "closed" OSs, even though this is what the Mac has historically had, and I would argue still has. Try asking (former) Power Computing employees what they think of Apple's "openness", or should I say "revoke whenever we feel like it" openness.
Listening to all of these "pundits" pontificate about the moral high ground of open-source is nauseating. We're looking at Johnny-come-lately claiming an intellectual heritage of open source software that is nearly twenty years old.
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
There are two pieces:
1) MS may have raised barriers to entry (low prices, integration, etc) into various fields (OS and browsers in particular) for the express puposes of causing rival companies (particularly startups like Netscape) would have a disproportionately hard time, so that
2) MS could exploit consumers by raising their prices. And note that "raising prices" doesn't necessarily mean "charging more money". It can also mean "getting less value". I think we can all agree that $1.98 spent on Linux has more value than $100 spent on Win98.
All Justice has to prove is that #1 has already taken place to show that MS is a monopoly. It doesn't matter if #2 has or ever will, because monopolies are inherently illegal.
Now, many of you are going to respond that there are monopolies in many other fields that aren't be prosecuted. True. There are also speeders who don't get caught or do get caught but not ticketed. Usually the judge likes to see that some harm has been done beyond just plain "you broke the letter of the law".
In the case of MS, though, their past behavior shows pretty clearly that they will do some harm when they get the chance. (DR-DOS anyone?)
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
Posted by ^Pip:
Did anyone catch this?
"Richard Schmalensee, dean of the MIT Sloan School of Management"
Looks like Microsoft lined MIT's pockets to get an expert to testify on their behalf. (The new building.)
Posted by OGL:
Whatever. Sorry I perturbed your little flaming mind, obviously I struck a nerve. Congratulations on getting lucky and not messing up your computer yet...I know plenty of people who have. Just because you've deluded yourself into worshipping your cheapo celery doesn't mean it has suddenly overcome its inherent technical shortcomings. I don't really see any "sour grapes" at work here...I could overclock my cpu if I wanted to, but I don't, because I don't think it's worth voiding my warrenty and risking downtime in order to gain nothing but bragging rights. The people I know who overclock do it for two reasons:
1. They're cheap/poor.
2. They think it makes them "cool."
Since you claim not to be cheap, I'll assume you're a member of the latter group, which is apparent anyway by your cocky attitude. I personally don't care if you consider yourself a "rebel" or not, but I do think it's ludicris for this article to perpetuate the notion that overclockers are somehow "sticking it to the man." That's nonsense, all they're doing is setting a few jumpers on their motherboards and then bathing in self-centered egotism.
-W.W.
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
Ma Bell employees are voting, tax paying Americans. Hence some effort will be made to appease them in any ruling. The company will not be broken up, so you can forget that right now.
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
Posted by LOTHAR, of the Hill People:
It doesn't seem to that attacking the FBI website is any smarter than trying to burn down a Police Station. Destroying/damaging government property is minor, but directly attacking a law enforcement agency is grounds for some serious jail time.
Posted by Gates of Borg:
Computers didn't get where they are now because everyone followed all the iddy biddy standards that made everyone happy. We need to constantly innovate and explore. If somebody wants to create his operating system the way he see's fit let him and the market decide. We all know honor doesn't work. it puts us in neat little boxes and expects us to behave according to some vague rule nobody really understands
Posted by d106ene5:
Yes, abuses of the judicial and criminal system are every citizen's business - but there are more drastic abuses that should trouble any of us, like the manner in which death sentences are handed out, and the manner in which parole is granted to violent criminals.
Jon, please don't be so arrogant as to determine for all of us what is important and what isn't. You haven't demonstrated the wit to be my philosopher king just yet.
Posted by d106ene5:
Yes, abuses of the judicial and criminal system are every citizen's business - but there are more drastic abuses that should trouble any of us, like the manner in which death sentences are handed out, and the manner in which parole is granted to violent criminals.
Jon, please don't be so arrogant as to determine for all of us what is important and what isn't. You haven't demonstrated the wit to be my philosopher king just yet.
Posted by The Mongolian Barbecue:
/.'ers so immature that they are unable to cope with the possibility that someone else had an inciteful idea?
This is a really good point & the first time I've heard it anywhere. I find it amazing that so many people immediatly dismissed this article as irrelevant, or repetitive. Are
Sometime I wonder if /. is completely populated by fruits. This guy didn't read the article, that much is plain. He is spewing out garbage that he doesn't understand. Hackers and crackers are all bad. They ruin things and cause trouble for sys admins. All hackers should be sent to China!
TK427 - Do you copy?Posted by d106ene5:
None of this is going to stop people from buying Windows. This whole case is a day late and a dollar short.
Microsoft employees are voting, tax paying Americans. Hence some effort will be made to appease them in any ruling. The company will not be broken up, so you can forget that right now.
As for any ruling making Windows "open source" - big deal. Unless you have ten years to spare, the source isn't going to help you much.
Posted by d106ene5:
This book provides information that can almost entirely be derived from man pages. It adds very little to system documentation already in place (that any unix user should be comfortable using).
Posted by d106ene5:
Once again Katz replaces a stereotype with one of his own choosing.
Gee, if I had only known "hackers" (whoever they are) are such great people, I would have invited them to dinner.
By the way - Milken has donated huge sums to the fight against cancer (yes, this is prompted partly by his own battle with it), so please do not paint him with your broad brush. Most people who actually know something about finance will tell you that many of Milken's "junk" techniques revolutionized aspects of corporate finance - and are still in use today.
Posted by OGL:
I hate to bust the overclocker's bubble here, but who really cares? So you're too cheap to buy a good chip, and you decide to pump up a crappy chip so you can get almost as high a clock speed and still have a tiny cache. Does this make you some kind of rebel? I know a guy who keeps a celeron next to his open window with the case off, with several fans blowing on it at all times...is that really worth it, considering that cpu mhz is often not the best indicator of performace, especially in an application like a 3D game (by the way, I really liked that part where the guy has *3* 3D accelerators for "razor sharp graphics," now that was a scream).
-W.W.
Posted by OGL:
"Crackers", Jon, "Crackers."
Not "Hackers."
-W.W.
Posted by wnp:
Actually, before anyone gets their pants (or
something else) all in knots, let me make this
clear:
Ballmer said Apache was better than IIS "in hosting more than one site on a single computer",
i.e. as a virtual server.
That's ALL he said, he didn't say it was generally
better.
Posted by The Mongolian Barbecue:
How many times has this tired tale played out? The oss coder doesn't like the philosophy of the people he's working for, so rather than try and iron out their differences, he simply leaves. It is no wonder that oss is still second rate in many areas- too often do coders just have fits and go and start their own new versions of a program. If oss coders spent half the energy on actually getting decent stuff written that they did having tantrums about doing it, then we might be in business. Until then, the cold laughter of Redmont will be our only reward.
Posted by stodge:
Dont make him out to be the martyr that he isnt
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
The point is not that they would close the source. But that they added a killer feature and THEN closed the source.
Remember, the example assumes RH becomes evil. So they come up with some moderately good idea, patent it (evil, remember), stick it in E and release binary only.
Suddenly GPL'd E loses the market and RH becomes MS.
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
...it does matter. The owner of the copyright decides the license.
Example: Let's say RH owns E. Right now E is under the GPL so no big deal. Then RH becomes evil AND has a good idea for a new killer feature for E. They add the feature and re-release E binary only. They can do this because they are the copyright owner. If they were just a licensee then Evil RH is no problem. You can see how this would suck.
In the case of kernel code (particularly from you) it's a little different. First, I believe you contract to RH, do you not? Unless you signed something saying RH owns the code you write they probably don't--you aren't an employee, you are a separate company (although this would be worth looking into). Furthermore, even if they did own the stuff you write/wrote, it's only a small fraction of the total kernel (no offense). With E, we are talking about the whole ball of wax.
Now that I think about it, this is a good reason to worry about any company that collects kernel developers like action figures. If they get enough of them they can release non-GPL'd Linux code...
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
Posted by stodge:
well thats all well and good, but THIS user doesnt want a fancy UI that takes 10 many years to decipher the icons, with fancy xterms that zoom in from random sides of the screen (what an effing waste of code). This user wants something out of the box, with an UI that is not Windows, but can replace Windows in functionality. I guess KDE is the one for me.