I am curious how many people will actually jump from Linux back to a proprietary OS like Windows or MacOS. If anything people will jump to the HURD and I think that that itself is highly unlikely. -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Always wondered, Apple likes Linux, but hates Be?
on
After Linux-Apple?
·
· Score: 1
Why would Be have to reverse-engineer the G3? Why can't they just look at the work the LinuxPPC folks did? I don't mean copy source code per se (cause then Be would have to be GPL'd;-), but they could use the specs that they reverse engineered (or reverse-engineer the source code to avoid the GPL). -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Do you really want imbeciles and secretaries using the best operating system around?
Yes! Since what the imbeciles (management) and the secretaries use will be what the rest of the folks in a company use (because you have to actually interact with imbeciles and secretaries, which means the communication protocols must be compatible, which is unlikely on any proprietary system), I want them using what I want to use. -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
I don't know if there are specific rules governing the use of names similar to Toys 'R Us, but obviously "Toys 'R Gus" not only uses the same type of wording, but it sounds like "Toys 'R Us" too. I doubt that it could be shown that it was not contrived from "Toys 'R Us". -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
And this has traditionally been used to protect privacy. Also, amendment 9 reads:
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Meaning that just because the Constitution does not explicitly declare a right does not mean that there is no right there.
BTW, I think the Senate really does have nothing better to do. The longer the trial goes on, the less they are mucking up stuff and raising taxes so that they can have more stuff to muck up. =)
-- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Call me crazy, but this flurry of announcements that major computer manufacturers are optionally bundling Linux with their machines seems to have a hint of the Chairman's work behind it.
What's Mao have to do with this? -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Well I'm sure they make a profit off of Windows (I mean...$100 for a bugfix to Win95? and look at NT's price disparity between Workstation and Server, which really are mostly the same). But the biggest thing they get from owning the OS is the ability to leverage it for their applications. -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
....and Linux International, which would probably be the litigants in any actions (and ironically include SGI). -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Why can't you compile your own color ls for IRIX? It uses ANSI-compatible colors, I believe so even in a monochrome term (like vanilla xterm or wterm) you'll get bold (bold yellow in wterm's case) at least.
As for Eterm, transparent terms are not really transparent, they just grab the background image and display a cropped version in the proper alignment in the Eterm (in other words, you won't see other windows through your Eterm). But to do this, Eterm has to know what the background image is and how it is aligned. If you're not using Englightenment, you have to set your background with the command Esetroot, which should have been included with Eterm. I've found Esetroot to be very slow in putting the image up (compared to xv), and the coolness of transparent terms soon runs down, especially when you have different backgrounds (I have a loop that changes my background to another one randomly every hour) in which some conflict with your character colors. -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
The acX suffix means "Alan Cox patch X". It's basically a pre-patch for the next version (in this case, 2.2.1). They only come in patch form. There is a special area of www.linuxhq.com dedicated to Alan Cox's prepatches. Note that if you apply an ac patch, you typically have to reverse it ("unapply" it, as it were) before applying an official patch (such as the 2.2.1 patch). I don't know if you have to reverse a previous ac patch when applying a later ac patch but I think so. -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
I used to think it was bad when the banks fought to keep the credit unions small...but think of it, the whole problem is that banks have merged and gotten bigger and bigger and less concerned with the little guy. So by keeping the credit unions localized, the banks are inadvertantly making sure that the credit unions remain attractive to us.
I'd rather see lots of localized credit unions than big ones which act like the corporate banks we all know and love. -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Not only that, but by porting the Glide you are supporting a proprietary API and limited the audience to your product. Using OpenGL doesn't have these effects, and since Mesa can work on top of Glide, you still can get Glide-acceleration. Hopefully some other chip vendors (NVIDIA, I'm talking to you!) will release their 3D specs or at least provide an SDK like 3dfx did for Glide, so that Mesa and GGI can work on top of those drivers too.
Hey...if NVIDIA released an SDK to their chip on Linux, we'd pretty much have a port for DirectX 6, wouldn't we, since that's the API that the TNT was designed for. That'd be great because if WINE were built to use it, Baldur's gate would actually be playable;-) -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Use Mesa (OpenGL-compatible) and you'll get hardware support on your 3dfx cards by way of Glide (Mesa can be built to use Glide). -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Considering Raven uses Id's engines, I would think Id knows a little bit more about this stuff than Raven. -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
You're correct, but in fact the GPL taliban uses the HURD kernel, which I doubt Qt or KDE has been ported to yet, so that issue is irrelevant.
As for Red Hat, they certainly ship non-GPL'd apps with their distro...Netscape and the Real Audio server come to mind. The difference is that those are apps and not libraries, and Qt being an integral part of KDE, shipping KDE as the default standard means your distribution depends (in some extent) on a non-open library (Qt). Even after the QPL is applied, the current draft does not allow for free commercial development using Qt, and thus may not be fully compatible with GPL/LGPL. -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Debian - not compliant with their DSFG RedHat - harmful to Gnome, thus boycotted, i.e. economical reasons.
Your mistake is that KDE was around before GNOME. So that begs the question of why Red Hat chose GNOME over KDE? Furthermore, what economic benefits does Red Hat get from not shipping KDE? (BTW, apparently they did in fact ship it with 5.2 in a seperate directory.) Since GNOME is under the GPL and LGPL, it's not like they're losing money either way. In fact, if they dumped GNOME support altogether they wouldn't have to pay the several RHAD developers who work on GNOME, so they would actually save money.
The point is apparently that they could've taken out those packages and distribute it anyway. But they didn't want to, see above.
My point is that the fact that any of the KDE apps use GPL'd code from other apps is irrelevant, since they themselves are GPL'd. The issue is (and always has been) with Qt, not necessarily with KDE. Since KDE's core uses Qt, any Qt license issues, real or imagined, affect all of KDE itself, not just those parts that use code from other applications.
-- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Superluminal travel (faster than light) has not been disproven, in fact wormhole theory allows for it, if only in an unpredictable manner.
Anyways, superluminal vessals are our only hope for meaningful exploration of the galaxy. You'll never talk enough stable, intelligent folks into a giant tin can to spend their lives with no hope of obtaining their goal. -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
fvwm95 is a piece of trash, and the fact that it refers to itself as fvwm* hurts its predecessors.
Well, believe it or not, fvwm95 really is fvwm2, it's just a configuration that makes it look like a crappy rip off of windows. Actually, the name was changed to AnotherLevel, I don't know why, but most of the config stuff still refers to it as fvwm95 (I do believe that fvwm95 was once a derivative work from fvwm2, but now I use the term to refer to the AnotherLevel configuration). Nonetheless, it was ill-thought up and ugly. And it is obviously giving fvwm2 a bad name just by looking at all the posts against fvwm in these replies.
I've never used fvwm2 with KDE (and hopefully never will;-), but it works find with GNOME, if you don't mind missing some of the features of GNOME-compliant window managers like root window drag and drop and such (BTW the fvwm2 pager is more functional than the GNOME-pager and it can be swallowed into the panel, so there's no big loss there). -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Note all my comments were about Qt, and not KDE, per se. I understand KDE is itself covered by the GPL, so there would not be any issues in including KDE (as long as any potential issues between KDE and Qt are resolved).
If I was incorrect about the royalties thing, I apologize.
As for Motif, I don't believe there is a mandated royalty for developing an app with Motif; I think that is left to the implementation of the Motif libraries (of course, I could be wrong about that too, but one could easily link to LessTif libraries instead). However, to get the SI of Motif you have to pay and you have to pay for any copies of your Motif implementation which rely on the SI, which is why Red Hat's Motif (and CDE...ugh) is so damned expensive.
Further, I do not want to start a KDE/Qt flame war, I'm only trying to grasp and convey the rationale of Red Hat and other distros such as Debian in not going with KDE/Qt (at least, not in their mainstream distributions).
There are a grand total of 5 apps out of 50 in KDE main packages that use GPL code from other authors.
I'm not sure what your point here is.
If it is that GPL and Qt can coexist peacefully, it doesn't prove it, it only proves that someone seems to think so. Until a definative ruling is made (for instance, in court) or at least an announcement by the FSF or SPI on the matter, the question remains unanswered.
If it is that KDE and GPL applications are compatible, then I agree and wouldn't have asserted otherwise, since KDE is, itself, under the GPL.
If it is that KDE apps are compatible with the GPL, then this is dependant on the license covering the given apps. If they are using code from GPL'd source code, they have to be GPL'd themselves or they are violating the GPL. I assume that you know this as well as I.
In short, using GPL'd code in one's KDE application does not show that the current Qt license or the forthcoming QPL are compatible with the GPL.
As for #2, I'll clarify that there is a problem (or rather, a potential problem) with the current draft of the QPL. The longer it takes for Troll Tech to come up with a workable version of the QPL, the less it matters what is in it at all. As you say, there may be a problem there may not be, but I can't find fault in Red Hat for remaining cautious about the whole situation when their next release will be sometime in the Spring; they can't make decisions based on a license which doesn't exist yet and a piece of software which may or may not use code covered by that license when it does appear. I'm not saying that Red Hat would be doing the right thing by not shipping Qt and/or KDE, but I think there is justification for their decision (and the similar decision of Debian). IMO, if there turns out to not be serious licensing issues or implications then by all means they ought to ship it. I won't use it, but that's no reason not to ship it at all. Of course if they don't, I won't lose any sleep over it.
-- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Back in my Slackware days this pestered me too, until I learned that you can edit the/etc/rpmrc file and include lines like this:
Provides:/bin/bash Provides: libc . . .
rpm will see these and will consider those things installed. So basically when you go to install a package and you get missing dependancies, you first see if indeed you have those dependancies installed by hand (via cpio or something) and then add them to that file. BTW there is also a tool called rpm2cpio which should translate the rpm files into cpio files which can be installed on a Slackware (or any Unix) system. -- Aaron Gaudio "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Slashdot Mirror
What don't you like about X, specifically?
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
I am curious how many people will actually jump from Linux back to a proprietary OS like Windows or MacOS. If anything people will jump to the HURD and I think that that itself is highly unlikely.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Why would Be have to reverse-engineer the G3? Why can't they just look at the work the LinuxPPC folks did? I don't mean copy source code per se (cause then Be would have to be GPL'd ;-), but they could use the specs that they reverse engineered (or reverse-engineer the source code to avoid the GPL).
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Do you really want imbeciles and secretaries using the best operating system around?
Yes! Since what the imbeciles (management) and the secretaries use will be what the rest of the folks in a company use (because you have to actually interact with imbeciles and secretaries, which means the communication protocols must be compatible, which is unlikely on any proprietary system), I want them using what I want to use.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
I don't know if there are specific rules governing the use of names similar to Toys 'R Us, but obviously "Toys 'R Gus" not only uses the same type of wording, but it sounds like "Toys 'R Us" too. I doubt that it could be shown that it was not contrived from "Toys 'R Us".
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
*Bop*
I think that was his point.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Amendment IV reads:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
And this has traditionally been used to protect privacy. Also, amendment 9 reads:
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
Meaning that just because the Constitution does not explicitly declare a right does not mean that there is no right there.
BTW, I think the Senate really does have nothing better to do. The longer the trial goes on, the less they are mucking up stuff and raising taxes so that they can have more stuff to muck up. =)
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Call me crazy, but this flurry of announcements that major computer manufacturers are optionally bundling Linux with their machines seems to have a hint of the Chairman's work behind it.
What's Mao have to do with this?
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
What did they include from their cookie jar savings?
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Good idea. Then when crackers break into your web page, they control your house as well. ;-)
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Well I'm sure they make a profit off of Windows (I mean...$100 for a bugfix to Win95? and look at NT's price disparity between Workstation and Server, which really are mostly the same). But the biggest thing they get from owning the OS is the ability to leverage it for their applications.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
....and Linux International, which would probably be the litigants in any actions (and ironically include SGI).
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Why can't you compile your own color ls for IRIX? It uses ANSI-compatible colors, I believe so even in a monochrome term (like vanilla xterm or wterm) you'll get bold (bold yellow in wterm's case) at least.
As for Eterm, transparent terms are not really transparent, they just grab the background image and display a cropped version in the proper alignment in the Eterm (in other words, you won't see other windows through your Eterm). But to do this, Eterm has to know what the background image is and how it is aligned. If you're not using Englightenment, you have to set your background with the command Esetroot, which should have been included with Eterm. I've found Esetroot to be very slow in putting the image up (compared to xv), and the coolness of transparent terms soon runs down, especially when you have different backgrounds (I have a loop that changes my background to another one randomly every hour) in which some conflict with your character colors.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
The acX suffix means "Alan Cox patch X". It's basically a pre-patch for the next version (in this case, 2.2.1). They only come in patch form. There is a special area of www.linuxhq.com dedicated to Alan Cox's prepatches. Note that if you apply an ac patch, you typically have to reverse it ("unapply" it, as it were) before applying an official patch (such as the 2.2.1 patch). I don't know if you have to reverse a previous ac patch when applying a later ac patch but I think so.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
No that just makes the computers that store sells hard to buy. ;-)
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
I used to think it was bad when the banks fought to keep the credit unions small...but think of it, the whole problem is that banks have merged and gotten bigger and bigger and less concerned with the little guy. So by keeping the credit unions localized, the banks are inadvertantly making sure that the credit unions remain attractive to us.
I'd rather see lots of localized credit unions than big ones which act like the corporate banks we all know and love.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Not only that, but by porting the Glide you are supporting a proprietary API and limited the audience to your product. Using OpenGL doesn't have these effects, and since Mesa can work on top of Glide, you still can get Glide-acceleration. Hopefully some other chip vendors (NVIDIA, I'm talking to you!) will release their 3D specs or at least provide an SDK like 3dfx did for Glide, so that Mesa and GGI can work on top of those drivers too.
;-)
Hey...if NVIDIA released an SDK to their chip on Linux, we'd pretty much have a port for DirectX 6, wouldn't we, since that's the API that the TNT was designed for. That'd be great because if WINE were built to use it, Baldur's gate would actually be playable
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Use Mesa (OpenGL-compatible) and you'll get hardware support on your 3dfx cards by way of Glide (Mesa can be built to use Glide).
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Considering Raven uses Id's engines, I would think Id knows a little bit more about this stuff than Raven.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
You're correct, but in fact the GPL taliban uses the HURD kernel, which I doubt Qt or KDE has been ported to yet, so that issue is irrelevant.
As for Red Hat, they certainly ship non-GPL'd apps with their distro...Netscape and the Real Audio server come to mind. The difference is that those are apps and not libraries, and Qt being an integral part of KDE, shipping KDE as the default standard means your distribution depends (in some extent) on a non-open library (Qt). Even after the QPL is applied, the current draft does not allow for free commercial development using Qt, and thus may not be fully compatible with GPL/LGPL.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
RedHat - harmful to Gnome, thus boycotted, i.e. economical reasons.
Your mistake is that KDE was around before GNOME. So that begs the question of why Red Hat chose GNOME over KDE? Furthermore, what economic benefits does Red Hat get from not shipping KDE? (BTW, apparently they did in fact ship it with 5.2 in a seperate directory.) Since GNOME is under the GPL and LGPL, it's not like they're losing money either way. In fact, if they dumped GNOME support altogether they wouldn't have to pay the several RHAD developers who work on GNOME, so they would actually save money.
The point is apparently that they could've taken out those packages and distribute it anyway. But they didn't want to, see above.My point is that the fact that any of the KDE apps use GPL'd code from other apps is irrelevant, since they themselves are GPL'd. The issue is (and always has been) with Qt, not necessarily with KDE. Since KDE's core uses Qt, any Qt license issues, real or imagined, affect all of KDE itself, not just those parts that use code from other applications.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Superluminal travel (faster than light) has not been disproven, in fact wormhole theory allows for it, if only in an unpredictable manner.
Anyways, superluminal vessals are our only hope for meaningful exploration of the galaxy. You'll never talk enough stable, intelligent folks into a giant tin can to spend their lives with no hope of obtaining their goal.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Well, believe it or not, fvwm95 really is fvwm2, it's just a configuration that makes it look like a crappy rip off of windows. Actually, the name was changed to AnotherLevel, I don't know why, but most of the config stuff still refers to it as fvwm95 (I do believe that fvwm95 was once a derivative work from fvwm2, but now I use the term to refer to the AnotherLevel configuration). Nonetheless, it was ill-thought up and ugly. And it is obviously giving fvwm2 a bad name just by looking at all the posts against fvwm in these replies.
I've never used fvwm2 with KDE (and hopefully never will ;-), but it works find with GNOME, if you don't mind missing some of the features of GNOME-compliant window managers like root window drag and drop and such (BTW the fvwm2 pager is more functional than the GNOME-pager and it can be swallowed into the panel, so there's no big loss there).
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Note all my comments were about Qt, and not KDE, per se. I understand KDE is itself covered by the GPL, so there would not be any issues in including KDE (as long as any potential issues between KDE and Qt are resolved).
If I was incorrect about the royalties thing, I apologize.
As for Motif, I don't believe there is a mandated royalty for developing an app with Motif; I think that is left to the implementation of the Motif libraries (of course, I could be wrong about that too, but one could easily link to LessTif libraries instead). However, to get the SI of Motif you have to pay and you have to pay for any copies of your Motif implementation which rely on the SI, which is why Red Hat's Motif (and CDE...ugh) is so damned expensive.
Further, I do not want to start a KDE/Qt flame war, I'm only trying to grasp and convey the rationale of Red Hat and other distros such as Debian in not going with KDE/Qt (at least, not in their mainstream distributions).
There are a grand total of 5 apps out of 50 in KDE main packages that use GPL code from other authors.
I'm not sure what your point here is.
If it is that GPL and Qt can coexist peacefully, it doesn't prove it, it only proves that someone seems to think so. Until a definative ruling is made (for instance, in court) or at least an announcement by the FSF or SPI on the matter, the question remains unanswered.
If it is that KDE and GPL applications are compatible, then I agree and wouldn't have asserted otherwise, since KDE is, itself, under the GPL.
If it is that KDE apps are compatible with the GPL, then this is dependant on the license covering the given apps. If they are using code from GPL'd source code, they have to be GPL'd themselves or they are violating the GPL. I assume that you know this as well as I.
In short, using GPL'd code in one's KDE application does not show that the current Qt license or the forthcoming QPL are compatible with the GPL.
As for #2, I'll clarify that there is a problem (or rather, a potential problem) with the current draft of the QPL. The longer it takes for Troll Tech to come up with a workable version of the QPL, the less it matters what is in it at all. As you say, there may be a problem there may not be, but I can't find fault in Red Hat for remaining cautious about the whole situation when their next release will be sometime in the Spring; they can't make decisions based on a license which doesn't exist yet and a piece of software which may or may not use code covered by that license when it does appear. I'm not saying that Red Hat would be doing the right thing by not shipping Qt and/or KDE, but I think there is justification for their decision (and the similar decision of Debian). IMO, if there turns out to not be serious licensing issues or implications then by all means they ought to ship it. I won't use it, but that's no reason not to ship it at all. Of course if they don't, I won't lose any sleep over it.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
Back in my Slackware days this pestered me too, until I learned that you can edit the /etc/rpmrc file and include lines like this:
/bin/bash
Provides:
Provides: libc
.
.
.
rpm will see these and will consider those things installed. So basically when you go to install a package and you get missing dependancies, you first see if indeed you have those dependancies installed by hand (via cpio or something) and then add them to that file. BTW there is also a tool called rpm2cpio which should translate the rpm files into cpio files which can be installed on a Slackware (or any Unix) system.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.