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Red Hat 6.0 and Arm?
Bert de
Bruijn writes "As Red Hat prepares all RawHide packages
for RedHat 6.0 (codename "BlueSky"), support is being added
for the ARM architecture. Obviously, Red Hat Software plans
to release the next version of their distribution for the
ARM architecture (Corel Netwinder & co.)" I dunno
if this is proof but it looks hopeful.
Ok, what does pm for SPARC have to do with RH6.0 for ARM? Fix the link, guys. Thanks.
I'm surprised. I would have thought Redhat would wait for Linux 2.2 before heading to version six.
They are.
To repeat for the umpteenth time: Rawhide is NOT an officially released product. What's in Rawhide now is NOT necessarily going to be Red Hat 6.0. Rawhide is a development/testbed release, NOT a major release of anything. Do NOT judge Red Hat's release policies based on what's in Rawhide. Got it?
I take it you still believe in the Micro$ost way.
Get with it, /. -- this is old news. It was almost three full months ago that Redhat announced this arrangement with Corel. I also just spoke with a Corel rep. yesterday (while placing an order for a Netwinder -- woohoo!) and he confirmed it.
Paul Iadonisi / Consultant
Collective Technologies
Team Yankee, Local Linux Lobbyist
Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux.
I can.
I just did a fresh, clean install of 5.2 last night. The first thing I did upon logging in was go to my recent GNOME RPMs collection via NFS, and type "rpm -Uvh *".
rpm segfaulted after getting through most of the packages.
(I had to fresh, clean install because at some point during trying to build GNOME from CVS, it had reached the point where the panel would do nothing but segfault, and rolling back to a stable release didn't fix it, nor did rolling my 2.2 kernel back to the shipped kernel help.)
waiting for Godot?
Isn't RedHat 6.0 due out in April or May?
:), gnome 1.0, and the new Samba etc...
:)
Which means that (hopefully) they will have 2.2.1 or 2.2.2 and release versions of Enlightenment 0.15 (Raster has said he is cleaning it up for release, but would deny everything
So if all goes well, Redhat 6.0 will deserve the full version increment.
Of course, odds are they will forget SOMETHING! But lets hope it's not too bad
Adam Kennedy
Freelance Perl Programmer
ARM-support based on only one word in the info of the GPM-package? Hmm, long shot.
However, it would be great.
Browse the newsgroups, if someone is having trouble compiling (or a group of people) they.ve got Redhat 5.2.
Is the free verison of WordPerfect 8 gonna be in
RH 6.0
The current fvwm95/Anotherlevel crap is the worst WM i have ever used and I am sorry to say, Gnome is just not stable enough and IMHO is not as functional (many design flaws) and if compared to KDE 1.1 pre (latest CVS) even with enlightenment and all the eye candy enabled,
the clean sleek interface of KDE wins out IMHO and the HO of my friends (functionality first then beauty).
I hope they also deside to follow Caldera's lead and bundle Partition Magic 4.0 as fips is no good.
besides all that RedHat's 5.2 release is very good. kbee
The reason you hear no bitching about SuSe is that nobody's using it :-) At least, not in the US.
As for GNOME, it is funded by RedHat, so gnome.org isn't "vaguely" related to RedHat. GNOME is supposedly going to be the user interface of RedHat 6.0. It's still under beta, but I like it a lot. It's on par with Windows95/98, interface wise, and I like the default theme a lot better than the default Windows95/98 theme.
I'd imagine they'd have the decency to include GNOME 0.99.99999 or some such, which, thank the gods, includes E.
I could see them shipping KDE as an option, as they do now with GNOME, but I doubt they'd place it as their default desktop.
What's the matter with GNOME anyways? I gather that KDE is further along in terms of development, but is there some fundamental feature that makes it worth looking at? When I was deciding between GNOME and KDE, I basically said to myself "hmmm... GNOME is being heavily supported by my vendor... maybe I'll take a look." And when I got it up and running, I was perfectly happy, obviating the need to look at K.
So, what am I missing out on?
(first, let me say this is intended to be sincere and not sarcastic. if you read it without keeping that in mind, I suppose it could sound rather nasty)
Hmmm, could this possibly be because of the popularity of RH? Large percentages of the linux community use this dist (wouldn't want to hazard I guess as to the actual number, though). And, more often than not, it's the less skilled user that picks it up. Note that I include myself in that list. So, being fairly green, RH users are much more likely to run into problem. And it's probably always 5.2 because that's the current version. Most of these people will always upgrade to the current version.
So this could explain the results of your survey, while still pointing out no actual problems with 5.2 (at least, other than the types of problems with any dist).
--
Jason Eric Pierce
For a mirror try:
ftp://ftp.netwinder.org/pub/mirrors/
This was a severe pain int he ass for me... I had compiled and installed several KDE apps w/5.0 (g++) and when I upgraded to 5.2, I had to recompile QT/KDE/and several other c++ apps so they would work properly. Of course I could have installed g++ again instead, however then if I downloaded any c++ linked bin from redhat, it wouldn't work, so I decided to recompile myself.
I had too spend an hour on IRC trying to find out why my old c++ bins wouldn't work w/5.2. RedHat should have better announced this, perhaps putting a note during the upgrade process.
That is something most people can agreee on.
then,
I would prefer KDE as one among equals. I will
not even think of buying the set unless KDE
becomes installed during installation (if you
select so) in the same manner as GNOME.
There are so many other (very good) dist. that
this will not be a difficult choice.
I agree, RedHat should either include a watered down version of PQMagic like Be and Caldera or add a umsdos installation option. Either one of the two, would tremendously ease the installation process for numerous newbies.
KDE is in the rawhide packages...
Since RedHat is of the opinion that:
"After fully considering all the issues, including the questionable legality of linking GPLed software with Qt, and the restrictions its license
places on our users, we have decided that we will not include Qt as part of our standard Open Source based Linux operating system as long as it is distributed under its current non-Open Source license" (http://www.redhat.com/redhat/qtlicense.html)
I don't think they will be able to ship a binary
version of KDE. If I understand Marc Ewing correctly, it might even be illegal for RedHat
to link KDE against Qt. I don't think they want
to risk a legal case.
Waldo Bastian
bastian@kde.org
SuSE does not work. Where is Japanese support?
Most people prefer Pacific HiTech, which
really does work.
SuSE is not even a free software distribution
like Red Hat, Debian, and Pacific HiTech.
Richard Stallman says SuSE is "the worst".
I used Redhat for years. And then bought Red Hat Linux 4.0 for x86. My worst mistake ever. It didn't function correctly and I had to ftp 40 MB with my 14.4k modem just to get a functional system again. I went to Debian. After a while I got tired of upgrading binary packages.
:-(
I installed FreeBSD side by side and was very impressed by it's CVSup system for the entire base system(not just the kernel) and erased my Linux partitions after a while.
IMHO, the best Red Hat release was 2.1, the later ones was full of old and buggy packages.
Regards, Tommy - happy FreeBSD-STABLE user
i just upgraded to 5.2 last night. after that failed (none of my modules would work...) i did a clean install....
does that mean by binaries will seg fault sooner or later (wp8, netscape, etc...)? or does that mean just that i will compile or did compile using g++ against the prebuilt libraries that come with RH 5.2? and will that affect dynamically linked libraries?
thanks,
newbie boy
Well, RedHat has lots of "cred" but very little dough right now. I don't think RedHat's support is going to tremendously impact Corel's bottom line.
But on the other hand, I could definitely imagine Corel getting bought out by one of the big computer makers (Dell comes to mind). Consider a Dell StrongARM laptop with the Corel office suite preinstalled. I'd sure as hell buy that.
I have a 5.0 machine under a regular moderate load as an SMB/NFS file server that's been up for 208 days, and about at least a hundred days at a time before that. It's never crashed. I took it down 208 days ago to fix some security problems, which have been the main thing plaguing Red Hat 5, and I took it down a couple times before that when I was swapping UPSes or reorganizing the equipment room.
Security stank, terribly, in Red Hat 5.0, but I've never had a system crash on me. If rpm segfaults, that's a problem with rpm, not the whole system. rpm is just a user app, not a critical system daemon or something, the world isn't over if it breaks.
I've never seen a Linux system crash--I got into Linux after the 2.0 kernel which has been pretty stable. But before I was working with Linux I was working with FreeBSD and that used to crash quite frequently in its early days. Oh, and OpenBSD/sparc 2.0, yeccch! I love OpenBSD but man was 2.0 a bomb. On OpenBSD/i386 2.0, the kernel would panic if you changed the system date with the 'date' command. Hell, SunOS 4.1.2 wasn't exactly the king of uptime--brought me into work plenty of times at 3 am.
I'm sure they're every bit as stable as Linux is now (except SunOS 4, I don't know if that ever got any better before Sun killed it), and they probably got there sooner, but BSD people have no business being snotty about their OSes. They went through their own infancy just like Linux did, and BSD was working with mostly mature code!
KDE was on my Cheapbytes RedHat 5.1 and 5.2 CD in the /kde directory.
That is something most people can agreee on.
Please speak for yourself and not for anyone else unless they ask you to, OK?
There are a considerable number of us that prefer fvwm, because it works quickly and easily, doesn't clutter the screen with docks and wharves and clips and other such BS, and doesn't need to have a million and one graphics libraries linked against it to support silly "themes".
Furthermore, there are many of us that use Linux to rejuvenate older machines, like 386/486 boxes and old m68k machines. Window managers like Windowmaker or Enlightenment or whatever else are just dog slow on such a machine. fvwm works a lot better for these things, in my experience.
There seems to be a growing number of Linux users in the past few years that put form before function and fashion before comfort. If you have a beefy enough machine that you can run a window manager like WM or E, more power to you. But try not to forget that there are people who want to use something less heavy, or gaudy, or whatever. (One man's "ugly" is another man's "spartan and useful", y'know.)
P.S. This idea that fvwm "must go away" because you consider it ugly is directly in conflict with the slashdot party line that Microsoft is bad because it forces people into one GUI. More choices is better, remember?
Why put this dualistic nonsense up? Linux can be both kickass and easy! If you can perform such a feat as creating Linux, you can also make a GUI wich allows you to stuff away that which is too dificult for beginners, yet keep it available for the powerusers.
Duh, why do I even bother with this? This is all really elemental, but what it eventually comes down to is that you geeks want to feel that you are better than the rest, and loudly oppose all tendencies towards mainstream use. But you always go down the drain in the end! The evolution goes towards BETTER as in: easier, faster, more powerful! But you want to halt it just below your level for the benefit of feeling superior. WELL #%# AND "%#!%243 YOUR "#&" AND #"%"# MY "#%"#%# UNTIL #%"#%"#%#%"#%/&%//&(%&"#"!!!!!!
|-[
Are you sure there might not have been something in the Gnome rpm's or an arpm you installed just before them that caused the problem?
Well considering how much Linux is growing and what distro most of the new Linux users are using it should be no surprise. Who is going to have problems with Slackware? I'm willing to bet almost all the people using slackware or more die hard linux geeks who manage to fix most of the problems they have on their own. This is probably true to some extent of the other distros. Red Hat is the easiest for a newbie to instal and in the US it is the most popular distro. Naturally, when you consider all of this you would *expect* there to be more people asking for help that are running Red Hat.
This release is going to be a real revolution.
Almost everything we knew about Linux is going to
change, or to jump a level. Many new packages (e.g
GNOME, E15), and even the old packages had major
upgrades (e.g. Samba, kernel). The installation is
written from scratch, and will make Linux very
easy to install. Wine will be included too, and it
is exciting because it just started to run Word97
better than anytime.
The delta between 5.2 and 6.0 is MUCH bigger than
the total delta between 4.0 and 5.2. You were so
wrong in your claim - I would say that calling
this release only 6.0 is too less.
This is the perfect package we have dreamed about
for so long time. ALMOST perfect; there is also a
catch: It is not so close. I am afraid that we
will have to wait at least 2 months before seeing
this release.
Doesn't SUSE come with KDE? I finally tried out the kppp program on an old 486. It was a snap setting it all up. In a few minutes I had a script working, able to log in with no problems.
RedHat is the crappiest distro I've seen. Unfortunately, it is the first distro many people (myself included) install when they are first instroduced to Linux. Even worse -- many people now assotiate Linux with RedHat.
1. Disk Druid KILLS partitions. This is the buggiest piece of shit I have ever seen. I can't believe they released such a poorly debugged utility which performs such a vital task.
2. RedHat is the ONLY distro I've seen that doesn't have keybindings set up properly. Try pressing Home, End, or Delete in a console in RedHat. Now try the same thing in SuSE or Debian. Notice the difference?
3. It seems that all their config utilities are getting buggier in every release. For instance, 5.0 detected my video card (ATI 3d pro Turbo, Mach64 X server) and mouse (Logitech 2 button, standard serial) properly. Since 5.1, video card detection was broken, and 5.2 doesn't detect my mouse!!!
4. RedHat's config file are located all over the place.
And finally, the default desktop is the butt-ugly fvwm95.
RedHat has become the Microsoft of Linux. It is a disgrace to the Linux community.
I used RedHat too, and it sucks!
RedHat is *the* buggiest Linux distro.
I could go on and top you on each point of your pride, but let's not burden slashdot with braggarts saying they can do this or that; it's counterproductive to the people who want to use our work. And besides; there'd be someone right behind me with an IQ of 200 and an 8 figure salary, and this would all get messy.
It's to the advantage of even the intelligent for the average consumer to use Open Source Software, not only because it's economically efficient, but also because it prevents one company's domination from subverting everyone else.
If the setup becomes X-based or VGA-based, they should have a windowmanager choice screen, with previews of the titlebars. Even the Windows 95 installer gave (gives?) a choice between using PROGMAN and EXPLORER as shells.
IMHO, RedHat 6.0 will come off the CD with complete GNOME integration (login screen to configuration tools to desktop), with Enlightenment as the _default_ WM, and the 2.2 kernel.
/. article the other day about RHAD Labs. RedHat hired Rasterman because of E. And the stuff he does with GNOME is all tied in to WM's, with E getting the meat of it.
Why E? I'm convinced it will be after reading the
Of course, the other stuff makes sense: GNOME went from 0.30 to 0.99, and is frozen for 1.0. GTK 1.2 is about ready, and Linux 2.2 is about ready. I think RedHat 6.0 will be one hell of an OS and make big news.
Granted, but as a newbie, I first installed rh 4.2 and was very happy with it. then I upgraded to 5.0 and bitterly regretted it : many things broken, which I was unable to fix. I finally switched to Suse and am still running it, because eveything seems to work out of the box. The auto config of all the installed wms after each new software install (entries are added to the appropriate menus) saves a tremendous amount of time. Also, as far as i can tell, it comes with more software than RH.
But then, I haven't checked out RH 5.2.
Jumping in:
Sure RedHat releases buggy software. So what? Red Hat is for people that are too stupid to get Debian, and Red Hat is for companies that wet themselves when they don't have "support". Why lament over these people buying Red Hat? Do you think these poor and uneducated morons deserve sympathy or contempt? It's only 50 bucks, it's not like they are saving for a year to buy it or that Red Hat is an order of magnitude worse than Debian. It has a few bugs. Woopie.
Guess what? Red Hat is in the business of making money. That's why they are a corporation and not a volunteer group like Debian. They aren't all bad, they do support GNOME for example - purely for self-serving reasons but it helps US out, so don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
I don't understand why people bitch and moan. It's not like Debian is going to "go under" if Red Hat gets bigger and better. It's not as if Red Hat is so terrible that it is worse than Windows NT. It's just that Red Hat isn't perfectly polished to a shine, like most COMMODITY products. Just be happy that Red Hat is a commodity product, that's a huge step.
ok i'll bite
where on my redhat 5.2 cd can i find kde
because i dont see it.
The highest IQ of anyone on record in the world is 210, you must feel very privleged to be sitting next to that person. Either that or you're simply full of it. Statistically speaking it probably is the later.
:)
I think Einstein had an IQ measurement of 160, but what did he know? Not the Heisenburg Uncertainty Priciple, that's for sure! What a doofus HE was.
IMHO RedHat should promote it's system as "easy to install newbie system", because that's definitely not the case.
Maybe their marketing department believes this is necessary.
RedHat is OK if you don't mind having to update your system all the time, and if fixing smaller bugs and quirks is not a problem for you. Then you get a decent server system.
But for end users, especially newbies, all should work out of the box. They should rather take SuSE.
AFAIK they plan to ship an Alpha version as well, I don't know when, though (this info is a couple of months old).
Obviously they had to wait for libc6 to become stable enough for them.
My guess is that they won't release it until in say 3 months, given the intensive testing they usually do.
Since I/SuSE haven't yet got PPP to work,
Strange, I found SuSE's ppp implementation pretty good. But you should reaaly try kppp from KDE. It's definitely one of the gems of KDE 1.0, and it's a breeze to set up a connection with it.
YaST will hang the system if you are installing to a hard drive which has extra space not assigned to any partition...
True, this a known bug in the US version, there is a patch on SuSE's site. But what's really interesting is how they handled it. They called back all distro packages that weren't already sold, and made new one's. Direct customers from SuSE Inc. got a T-shirt, as they had to wait for it.
I've seen several severe bugs in RedHat, but they would never have dreamed of such a customer-friendly behaviour!
Basically, my point is, fuck the masses. I don't care what they think about Linux. It simply doesn't matter to me. It pissed you off because you expect it to do exactly what you tell it to do, the masses DON'T. Red Hat is designed for the masses.
:) I'm sorry, but I gave up on idealism. Linux is a nice system, I like it very much, it is a technical ideal but there is nothing in it for me to popularize it. It's our toy, a neat toy, and if society is too damn stupid to recognize a work of art that is better and cheaper than Windows because of a window manager, fuck it. They don't need to use it. They can continue with what they have until hell freezes over because it is impossible to ever convince most narrow-minded bastards there is a possibility that 200 million people can be wrong and 10 million might be right.
Also, Red Hat isn't THAT buggy. Windows 95 will wipe the disk too. They expect it. Thank god for Microsoft because they have single handedly lowered the expectations of every company that produces software. It's permissible to have bugs because of them. "If MS can't do it, well, we can't expect you to be perfect" Haha. I love it.
You may also want to consider the implications of having a company produce a software package that is damn near impossible to program for. When I was 9 I was playing with assembly and BASIC on a C=64. Today, nine year olds play with Star Wars, and Quake II. No competition = job security. Just you try to program Windows 95 without spending $300 in software - the same price that it cost to get a complete system with all the goodies at 9. Thank's Mr. Tramiel(sp?) you secured my future! You're the man!
Now, I'm not saying MS is evil, I'm just saying it advantages me. If the masses want to screw themselves over 10 years down the road, and if the masses insist on giving people that make over 100 thousand a year a tax break, who am I to say no? I've reached a point in my life where I've said "fuck it". That's my point. I'm still not a Republican, but I know who butters my bread, it's not the Democrats (it's not the Republican's either but they come closer.) I always root for the underdog, even if it isn't my home team.
So Red Hat isn't perfect. Fuck it. So Suse is better. Fuck it.
I'm not saying my philosophy is the end all and be all of living, but you might want to consider it.
Resource hog?
There are some weird configurations where KDE 1.0 uses up much more memory than it should, for no apparent reason. Maybe you have such a system.
I even ran it on an Amiga (NetBSD) with 18megs. Not lightning fast, but acceptable.
The new KDE is apparently sleeker, as I've read here.
but running linux on one of those neat little ARM/strongARM powered portables (like the hp jornada) would be cooler... how about it, hackers?
j deadbird (at work)
The GPL very clearly states that it is not allowed to distribute a dynamically linked version of KDE without dsitributing/providing the source as well. The GPL defines source as:
"The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for
making modifications to it. For an executable work, complete source
code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any
associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to
control compilation and installation of the executable. However, as a
special exception, the source code distributed need not include
anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary
form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the
operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component
itself accompanies the executable."
Since RedHat/Linux does not include Qt as "major component of the operating system" it will have
to provide the source to Qt if it wants to distribute a binary version of KDE.
Summary: It is illegal for RedHat to distribute dynamically linked versions of KDE without providing the Qt sources.
Waldo Bastian
bastian@kde.org
But there'd isn't a word, yet there's is a word, not to mention that fact that 's' on the keyboad is right next to 'd'. This is a frequent typo, at least for me.
Posted by stodge:
:P At the moment I use Afterstep (looks great!), but for the future? I'd like to try gnome if I can get all my libs to the current versions (damn you RPM!).
I do love the KDE integration and the look of the windows, but KDE is an absolute resource hog. I hate the look of the icons though
What Red Hat release is going to have the 2.2.0 kernel & (approximately) when will it be?
/dev/brain /dev/brain: No such file or directory
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What is your Slash Rating?
Cool...thanx
/dev/brain /dev/brain: No such file or directory
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It wasn't on my cheap bytes CD even though AfterStep, fvwm2, and Gnome all were. Stupid, too, because KDE is one of the more popular "window managers".
/dev/brain /dev/brain: No such file or directory
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find: cannot open
What is your Slash Rating?
I like KDE, but I'm not sure I'd refer to it as sleek...KDE is a bit of a resource hog compared with fvwm2...as you pointed out, tho, fvwm95 is the crappiest interface ever...worse, even, than Windoze
/dev/brain /dev/brain: No such file or directory
I agree, too, that they ought to include pqmagic...would be nice if they could also integrate it into the install process...neither fips nore the much touted disk druid are any good compared with pqmagic.
# find
find: cannot open
What is your Slash Rating?
:)
/dev/brain /dev/brain: No such file or directory
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I'm running a Presario 4814 (stock) which means I have 32 meg of ram and a 233 MHz MMX processor. I reduced the load by killing off some of the networking processes and by removing my kde backgrounds, but it still eats a chunk. And when I run VNC on my friend's computer, kde takes a noticeable chunk out of that one too. And that one is a dual-processor 200 MHz system running with a whopping lot of ram. Maybe KDE just likes your system :)
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What is your Slash Rating?
Oddly enough, I never had any problems with ipfwadm and the 5.x Redhats. Although Xconfigurator has had it's problems.
If the user has to download any updates, or go running to the newsgroups (lack of rtfm excepted) then it is indeed broken despite being your pet distro.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Do you really think the typical Windows crowd can actually take the culture shock of being dumped into a WindowManager that makes no attempts to immitate the look of Windows whatsoever?
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
A 2.2 kernel does not a major distro release make.
Oh, but doesn't it? If you think about it, all of the tools and system utilities released with RH5.x were designed to work with the 2.0.x kernel. A great many of those are going to need to be upgraded/replaced to work with 2.2 (ipfwadm -> ipchains, for example, along with whatever GUI front-end they use, if any). As a result, I would expect version numbers of RPM's included in 6.0 to differ a lot more from 5.2 than 5.2 did from 5.1.
I do hope that RH takes it a bit further, though, and doesn't just upgrade the programs that need to be upgraded to work with 2.2. It should "feel" like a new major version.
I thought he was right-on. He did say "At least not in the US", and he was correct. SuSE is mainly a European popularity, which I think he adequately addressed.
Don't be so quick to jump down somebody's throat and start calling them names. Re-read their post to see if maybe you missed or misunderstood something.
To continue on with what he was saying, RedHat is the most popular distribution, which is why you tend to more hear things (both good and bad) about RedHat than you do about lesser-known distributions such as SuSE. That's the point he was trying to make.
And take a pill..
I propose we slashdot the website of the company formerly known as Acorn, and tell them what we think of their disgraceful behaviour towards their computer division.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
WindowMaker and AfterStep are provided in 5.2. Either is easy to specify as the default window manager. For wmaker, there are a few themes and styles provided and the initial popup menus refer to most RH admin utilities.
--
Since where on the topic of Redhat 6.0, has anyone heard if they are going to improve the RPM's? I left the redhat camp due to how difficult it could be to update/upgrade the system.
It would really be to thier advantage to get something similar to dselect that will update/upgrade a package & all it's dependencies in one step.
So a single comment deep in the pages of RedHat say that ARM support is going to be included with RedHat 6? That's a huge stretch! What about a link to a site on RedHat's site saying that they plan to support it. It just seems like a huge assumption that because one person put a comment on a page that the entire organization is set to support it!
Subject speaks for itself.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Kind of. You'll still need to upgrade a number of utilities. Noticeably absent is glibc 2.1, which is understandable: I installed it (2.0.95) by hand last week (by rolling my own rpm) and had lots of problems with it, so I reinstalled glibc 2.0.7. There are probably some newer 2.1 versions I'll have to try when I get the time.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
It also defeats the purpose of login security. For instance, when you try to login on the console as a user who does not exist it still asks for a password and will tell you "Login incorrect", the same as if the user did exist but the password was wrong. This is just a means of keeping such information on a need-to-know basis. Providing names and pictures of users kind of defeats that purpose.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Just because fvwm95 sucks doesn't mean that fvwm2 itself sucks. All it needs is GNOME-compliance and it's still the best (IMHO) [hell, even without GNOME-compliance it's the best :-) ].
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
I love fvwm2! Don't base your experiences on fvwm95/AnotherLevel. Hell, you can even find themes for fvwm2. In terms of functionality what is it really missing? The ability to put side buttons on your window borders? I mean, in terms of necessary functionality it's all there, and it's highly configurable as well (in fact, next to E it's one of the most configurable wm's). It's also been there longer, and is more stable and robust than E (haven't used WM so can't speak for it).
If you're interested in fvwm2 themes, check out fvwm.themes.org. They don't have very much there, but it's a nice proof of concept.
What I'd like to know is, do either GNOME, or KDE define hints to set a mini-icon image, just as ICCM has hints for full-size icon images (e.g. Netscape uses this). That's one of the few things I'd like to see in fvwm2, if such a standard existed (that and full GNOME-compliance).
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
As long as it's linked dynamically, they could ship KDE sans Qt and make you have to go get Qt yourself (or a variant such as Harmony).
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
There are still issues involved with mixing Qt and GPL/LGPL software, even when the new Qt license takes effect.
I'm sure there is some politics mixed in with Red Hat's reasoning. Even if they shipped Qt, I could understand them not wanting to install it by default if only because you still can't develop commercial software using Qt (even with the new license) without paying royalties to Troll Tech. Note that even Motif does not have this restriction on it (AFAIK, and I might be wrong about that).
In the meantime (before the license change), Red Hat probably can't even ship the Qt libraries without paying royalties to Troll Tech. So they decided to go with GNOME and I'd be disapointed to see them waffle back and forth between KDE and GNOME and end up supporting both in a half-assed manner, even if all the sudden Qt became LGPL'd.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Note all my comments were about Qt, and not KDE, per se. I understand KDE is itself covered by the GPL, so there would not be any issues in including KDE (as long as any potential issues between KDE and Qt are resolved).
If I was incorrect about the royalties thing, I apologize.
As for Motif, I don't believe there is a mandated royalty for developing an app with Motif; I think that is left to the implementation of the Motif libraries (of course, I could be wrong about that too, but one could easily link to LessTif libraries instead). However, to get the SI of Motif you have to pay and you have to pay for any copies of your Motif implementation which rely on the SI, which is why Red Hat's Motif (and CDE...ugh) is so damned expensive.
Further, I do not want to start a KDE/Qt flame war, I'm only trying to grasp and convey the rationale of Red Hat and other distros such as Debian in not going with KDE/Qt (at least, not in their mainstream distributions).
There are a grand total of 5 apps out of 50 in KDE main packages that use GPL code from other authors.
I'm not sure what your point here is.
If it is that GPL and Qt can coexist peacefully, it doesn't prove it, it only proves that someone seems to think so. Until a definative ruling is made (for instance, in court) or at least an announcement by the FSF or SPI on the matter, the question remains unanswered.
If it is that KDE and GPL applications are compatible, then I agree and wouldn't have asserted otherwise, since KDE is, itself, under the GPL.
If it is that KDE apps are compatible with the GPL, then this is dependant on the license covering the given apps. If they are using code from GPL'd source code, they have to be GPL'd themselves or they are violating the GPL. I assume that you know this as well as I.
In short, using GPL'd code in one's KDE application does not show that the current Qt license or the forthcoming QPL are compatible with the GPL.
As for #2, I'll clarify that there is a problem (or rather, a potential problem) with the current draft of the QPL. The longer it takes for Troll Tech to come up with a workable version of the QPL, the less it matters what is in it at all. As you say, there may be a problem there may not be, but I can't find fault in Red Hat for remaining cautious about the whole situation when their next release will be sometime in the Spring; they can't make decisions based on a license which doesn't exist yet and a piece of software which may or may not use code covered by that license when it does appear. I'm not saying that Red Hat would be doing the right thing by not shipping Qt and/or KDE, but I think there is justification for their decision (and the similar decision of Debian). IMO, if there turns out to not be serious licensing issues or implications then by all means they ought to ship it. I won't use it, but that's no reason not to ship it at all. Of course if they don't, I won't lose any sleep over it.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Well, believe it or not, fvwm95 really is fvwm2, it's just a configuration that makes it look like a crappy rip off of windows. Actually, the name was changed to AnotherLevel, I don't know why, but most of the config stuff still refers to it as fvwm95 (I do believe that fvwm95 was once a derivative work from fvwm2, but now I use the term to refer to the AnotherLevel configuration). Nonetheless, it was ill-thought up and ugly. And it is obviously giving fvwm2 a bad name just by looking at all the posts against fvwm in these replies.
I've never used fvwm2 with KDE (and hopefully never will ;-), but it works find with GNOME, if you don't mind missing some of the features of GNOME-compliant window managers like root window drag and drop and such (BTW the fvwm2 pager is more functional than the GNOME-pager and it can be swallowed into the panel, so there's no big loss there).
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
RedHat - harmful to Gnome, thus boycotted, i.e. economical reasons.
Your mistake is that KDE was around before GNOME. So that begs the question of why Red Hat chose GNOME over KDE? Furthermore, what economic benefits does Red Hat get from not shipping KDE? (BTW, apparently they did in fact ship it with 5.2 in a seperate directory.) Since GNOME is under the GPL and LGPL, it's not like they're losing money either way. In fact, if they dumped GNOME support altogether they wouldn't have to pay the several RHAD developers who work on GNOME, so they would actually save money.
The point is apparently that they could've taken out those packages and distribute it anyway. But they didn't want to, see above.My point is that the fact that any of the KDE apps use GPL'd code from other apps is irrelevant, since they themselves are GPL'd. The issue is (and always has been) with Qt, not necessarily with KDE. Since KDE's core uses Qt, any Qt license issues, real or imagined, affect all of KDE itself, not just those parts that use code from other applications.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
You're correct, but in fact the GPL taliban uses the HURD kernel, which I doubt Qt or KDE has been ported to yet, so that issue is irrelevant.
As for Red Hat, they certainly ship non-GPL'd apps with their distro...Netscape and the Real Audio server come to mind. The difference is that those are apps and not libraries, and Qt being an integral part of KDE, shipping KDE as the default standard means your distribution depends (in some extent) on a non-open library (Qt). Even after the QPL is applied, the current draft does not allow for free commercial development using Qt, and thus may not be fully compatible with GPL/LGPL.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
The problem will be caught at the linker, where one compiler requires symbols that the other doesn't export.
I think you can still run your old C++ programs as long as you have both libstdc++ & libg++ installed.
Commercial apps take the most paranoid route and link C++ libs in statically.
I'm surprised. I would have thought Redhat would
wait for Linux 2.2 before heading to version six.
SuSE looked real nice, but has some bugs that have made things difficult for me to switch completely from Windows. SuSE does seem easier and has more bundled applications than RH 5.0. Troll Repellent: Just my _opinion_...
Since I/SuSE haven't yet got PPP to work, and X Windows is unreliable (it only works until I reboot), I'm going to give RH 5.2 a shot tonight.
...
To expand on the SUSE bugs, YaST will hang the system if you are installing to a hard drive which has extra space not assigned to any partition... something that is not hard to do if you want a DOS partition also.
The other SuSE problem was X appears to work fine, but once I reboot out into Windows and then back X will fail to load (some connection error). Since this is my only working system I might as well give it a shot with RH 5.2 and download the extras later..
But I would give SuSE 6.0 another shot. Aside from the install bug, which I got around, it seems from my newbie position to be a VERY GOOD distribution, esp. for a home user (even includes the old computer/console emulators). RH is a bit more conservative, but if 5.2 gives me less throuble then it is what I will use, for now...
That's very exculsionary opinion, don't you think? Remember most people consider the windows manager to BE the OS!
I personally (MHO!!) think it is a noble goal for Unix to replace Windows entirely. It can be all things for all people, with the right installers and config tools. For example a server does not need (nor should it have) a window manager, at all.
Someday we'll all look back at the fall of Microsoft and chuckle at how the world came so close to being truly "dominated".
Corel announced a while back that RedHat was going to be doing the dist for the netwinder.
Have you been hibernating all winter? :-)
QT 2.0 will be Open Source compatible.
They are after next major release once again?
To early I suppose. They ought to release
5.3 first. 5.2 is by no means as stable as
4.2 was. What we need is a good stable system
which shouldn't be upgraded more than once
a two years. Redhat 4.2 was such a system.
As time come I'll probably install Debian 2.1.
Hope that RedHat would wait for Postges 6.5 and
kernel 2.2.1 before shipping their 6.0
I agree, that fvwm, as shipped with RedHat is hell to configure. AnotherLevel is evil. fvwm, as it comes out of the box is a bit better. At least all configuration is in one file and you can edit it as you wish.
But nothing prevents you from writing your own modules - you need not even know C, you can do it on Tcl and invent your own configuration mechanism. Too bad that all newcomers, which have good ideas about interface, think that if they want something new, they have to throw whole thing away and write new one from scratch.
Even worse, they think that C++ is only language, while such things as desktop goodies should be written on Tcl or Python to let anyone customize them.
This reminds me that a lot of people come up with screams "xdm is evil" and new login managers, which are nice, but don't support most basic feature of xdm - XDCMP protocol.
Let the thing do what it does well (in case of fvwm - drag window around and assign actions to buttons), and wrote small things that do well something, which old thing does wrong. But don't ever attempt to sacrifice functionality to look and feel.
Yes, It is thing which needs to be said
(and _considered_).
Once upon a time, when two distributions fit on one CD, it was a good idea to provide catch-all distribution. Now, when even binaries don't fit
it is better to make a range of distributions.
"RedHat 6.0 Internet Server"
"RedHat 6.0 Application Server"
"RedHat 6.0 Graphic Workstation"
"RedHat 6.0 Developer Workstation"
and so on. Each of them would fit on one cd
(may be even with sources), and default install
would better fit to purpose. And you'll have
no troubles to download and install bunch of
rpms if you suddenly decide to convert your
graphic worstation to internet server.
Or special add-on CD can be released, which
contains all the srpms which may not included
in any branch of distribution. (Once you are
accustomized with "Home version", you probably
know how to install from srpm when you decide
to run web server)
see ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/linux/redhat/redhat-5.2/i3 86/RedHat/RPMS/WindowMaker-0.20.1-3.i386 .rpm
However, I'm not sure it installed by default....
Window Maker is included with RH5.2. It's just not installed by default. You'll find it in the RPMS directory. Personally, I find it much more elegant and useful than Afterstep (which does get installed by default I believe).
I should also remind you to install WMPrefs which is also in the RPMS directory. It's a very nice
Anybody know if they're going to go with a decent window manager this time... WindowMaker perhaps... dare I say it, even KDE? Anything but that God-awful embarassment FVWM thingy. If RedHat was my first view of Linux, which it is for many people, I'd be put off right there.
It's a Unix system - I know this.
Yes, yes yes. I know alternatives comes with 5.2. My point is the default, which is what most new users will stick with until they are competent enough to change it, is terrible. If RH started up in a nicer environment, folks might be more inclined to stick with it until they figure out how to change the bloody thing.
It's a Unix system - I know this.
My understanding is that they are releasing it 6.0 because of the new kernel, the finalized version of GNOME 1.0 (which has some really nice code by the way), and a rewritten manual, and other features. The rumour is that the installation will be somewhat different as well. Some programs will be dropped and others will be included that normally havn't been in Red Hat releases. After all I really didn't see much difference between Red Hat 5.0,5.1,and 5.2 Thanks God that we're more concerned with good code and functionality than backwords compatability. :-) It should be a kick-A#&! release. I guess we'll just have to see.
Cheers,
Nick
Couple things here. First I'm using LinuxConf
ver. linuxconf-1.13r12-1 It is your responsibility to upgrade it...not theirs.
Customer Service, (even they admit) has been cruddy. They are in the process of restructering their department to provide the enterpise level support they have been talking about. (as a test) I recently spoke to a staff member at Red Hat regarding support and was told to contact a support partner. When I asked for the names of them he told me to look at the web site.
If I did that I would soon be out of business.
I suspect that Red Hat has been growing through some growing pains. As the owner of a technology company myself, I know what they are going through.
RE: FTP Sites. They could stand to put up two more servers on site in a redundant array of many gigs. that should suffice and wouldn't be prohibitively expensive.
Price: I would not mind spending $100.00 for a Linux distribution. I might be mistaken on this but I've heard Caldera is going to go to a licensing system (why I have no idea, I think this would be very bad)??
Cheers,
Nick
PS: M$ is a brilliant example of a single company, using free resources, bundling them together in 20 year old technology and markting them to the public for an outlandish fee.
Let me assure you that many of the errors in GNOME pre-releases are being fixed. I've spoken (and emailed bug reports) to many of the folks at RH-LAbs and The Midnight Commander people regarding it's issues. Frederico has been doing been improvements in GMC and it should be "Pretty Damn Cool" (tm) I just like GNOME better than KDE because KDE looks to much like the TK widget set and it is so blocky looking. I also like the GTK/GDK API better ... just my HO.. KDE has some cool stuff though... I like the menu editor!
Cheers,
Nick
LSG
Just for info, our company uses ICEWM and GNOME.
I like IceWM becuase it is simple, fast, and no bloat. GNOME works well with it and we don't even bother to install AFterStep, or WindowMaker etc.
If Red Hat just ships with E, GNOME, ICEWM, and KDE I'll be a happy camper.
Nick
LSG
I suspect the guy who said that is an M$ plant....
Trying to cause more rift in the community.
You'll be seeing alot more of that soon.
I suspect the guy who said that is an M$ plant....
Trying to cause more rift in the community.
You'll be seeing alot more of that soon.
Nick
LSG
Red Hat does pretty much _everything_ well. If you use it as a server, you have to work around the bugs and the updates. If you use it as a home system, you have to manually set up your GUI ( not a big deal, but newbies sure seem to hate vi) to get something decent.
But Debian does the rock-solid-server thing _really_ well. Very SA friendly and runs like a kitten-the most bugfree release out there.
And, as much as I hate using it ( YaST is a beast and KDE eats up too much real estate on my desktop and RAM), SuSe does provide the beginner a friendly experience. I dislike SuSe for the same reasons RMS does, but beginning users really don't care about politics. They just want to have something that runs while they learn about all the neat things they can do under Linux that they never would have fathomed under Windows.
And for a corporate desktop, a group that promotes the term "open source" because it hides their underlying hipocrisy regarding information freedom, where TCO and reliabilty are the issue, then Caldera does a fine job at that, again much better than Red Hat.
To put it bluntly, Red Hat isn't the best at anything. But they are _good_ at everything. One is forced to wonder if this compromise has become popular with the crowd who does _everything_ on their Linux system ( and thus advocates the platform, drawing in newbies).
Among the changes I would like to see:
The last time I asked for this last item here, RedHat personnel responded that there were many mirrors and the money would be better spent on other things. Balderdash I say - they had better get their act together and quit assuming others will pick up their slack. They've got the money - there is no room for excuses.
RedHat and Linux in general are making huge strides towards delivering a quality product at a great price, but I really want to see them go the last 10% and do it right. I'd rather spend $20 more and get the finished product done right.
KDE 1.0 is very easy to use, has nice, consistent looking tools that can interoperate, there are equivalents to most Win tools, and nearly everything can be configured graphically. It also offers the best filemanager for X and the window manager with the most features. kISDN is about the only easy way to set up an ISDN connection if you haven't a SuSE distro.
IN short, it's a must for newbies, great for users, and nice, but not necessary for sysadmins.
KDE 1.1 however, is a totally different beast (should be KDE 2 IMO anyway).
It offers *real* functionality, is more flexible, bug-free, better integrated etc.
Just to name a few features:
The most important point is the increased maturity. They haven't tried to introduce new and funky technologies and experiments, but made real improvements 'under the hood' not only on the surface.
I'm sure many of those bitching here will be pretty surprised by KDE 1.1
RedHat *definitely* need to make their ftp servers usable. they accept so few connections that they're pretty much always full. the company is getting big, they surely can afford a bit more bandwith!
I'm not a RH user. I use debian. I'm probably wrong about this, but can't anyone use any kernel? I'm currently running 2.2.0pre8 just fine. Sure you need ipchains, but not many people are implementing firewall/network stuff.
While I agree that RH releases quite often, every two years would be too seldoom. Had they done that, they might have missed the 2.0 kernel all-together. I don't think Debian waits two years, either.
Why didn't you just stay with 4.2? If it ain't broke...
3fer
Hm. 5.2 instable? 5.0 was full of security holes (yes, I run 5.0), and 5.1 I never used. 5.2 is just a heavily patched 5.1 which is just a heavily patched 5.0, and since 5.0 is stable, I don't see how 5.2, even if slightly more instable, could be less then reliable.
Dogma: Dead (mostly because your Karma ran it over)
From the looks of RawHide, 6.0 will likely have GNOME, KDE, and WindowMaker. Now, they need to either use kdm or modify xdm to allow window manager selection at login time. I've hacked my system here to allow me to select E or KWM from the kdm login screen.
World Beach List, my latest project.
And I'm not talking about fvwm2 here. That's too big and bloated. The original fvwm is the best. It's small, it's fast and sleek, AND it has a seemless virtual desktop. Everything a window manager should be.
KDE is just wonderfully simple to use and learn and add onto and configure.
I like its file directory program a lot better than Midnight Express, although it does have its occasional problem. (Like when I want to look at a directory's file listings -- if there's an index.htm file, that's all that appears and not the file listing. I have to look for a solution on that one.)
But everything is integrated really well. It's easy to look at, it comes with its own flavor of all the programs you'd need to get started with a computer.
I'll probably give GNOME a test when 1.0 comes out, but until then KDE is what saved Linux for me.
-Augie
I'm using Linux-Mandrake, which defaults to KDE. On the start-up (login) screen, it has an option as to what window manager you wish to start off in. So I'm sure it wouldn't be a big problem to incorporate that in. It's a handy program, too, in that it has an icon for all the users on the system so you can click on yourself rather than typing your name in, in case you're really lazy. ;-)
-Augie, fast turning into a KDE Evangelist
Most of the complaints about RedHat posted here are based on a poster's single gripe. If you have only one gripe with a product it can't be all that bad.
Its not much use saying RH 4.2 was stable, and RH 5.2 isn't. Its not a one way street. Most of the security fixes in recent versions fix problems that were there in every older version. They are just part of the process of refining stuff.
RedHat has problems, but the time consuming problems I get are usually nothing to do with RedHat. Like I have hassle at the moment with a lot of incompatible versions of GTK. Now its a great package, and I know they need to make incompatible changes to create a better world for the future. Its hard to eliminate the hassles I get. Nevertheless, I think this type of problem is where most of us spend most of our problem solving time.
I use RH5.2 on a 486, a Pentium and an Alpha. Its OK on the Intel chips, but the Alpha has some REAL problems. Seg. faults on Intel seem to exist, but be a rarity (I have only seen a couple). On Alpha you get frequent alignment faults. Also, I fill the whole of my 64MB of RAM just by booting and starting X. RISC code is bigger, but not THAT much.
Yes, I think most of us have Linuxconf 1.13r12-1 So what? Its a joke. As a proof of concept it would be OK, and I would say they may be heading in a good direction, but they call it 1.something. That is what makes it a joke. There is hardly anything it will configure properly.
Worst of all RedHat describe it as the bee's knees in configuration software. Not the future bee's knees, but the "we were blown away when we saw this package" right now bee's knees.
A couple of things... First, I do see KDE & QT 1.42 in the current Raw Hide tree. Granted, it might not get included in Red Hat 6.0, but I think it likely, especially since QT 2.0 will be supposedly Open Source (leaving aside any debates on the nature of the QPL)... Perhaps Red Hat is experimenting with it for its own purposes to get ready for it? In any case, they have not said anything publicly about their complete reversal of direction on this issue, after stating that they were completely opposed to it... So who knows??
As to kernel 2.2... Red Hat has DEADLINES to meet on releasing the new versions. Notice that 5.2 shipped with a pre-version of the 2.0.36 kernel (package hence named as 2.0.36-0.7), and 5.1 shipped with a 2.0.34-0.7. I noticed also that the Raw Hide trees that were around before the release of 5.2 included the most recent 2.1 kernel they could get their hands on at the time... When 5.2 finally came out, it included the most recent stable kernel they could get their hands on... The pre-2.0.36 version they had. I suspect that Red Hat was getting fed up waiting for Alan Cox to release the final 2.0.36, hence the pre-version in the release, just so they could meet the release deadline. At this point though, with 2.2 now in the pre stage, I suspect they will release the latest pre-2.2 they can get their hands on, if the final release is not yet available. That is my best guess, based on my experience in the past.
While attending Lisa 98 (USENIX) in boston I took a class on linux as a server (so work would allow it to be used there) by the head sysadmin at redhat. He was asked and did say that as far a he knows RH 6.0 will be with kernel 2.2.0 but of course that could change......
Too bad he's earning in Turkish Lira...
Hmm... That's a first :-) Not that I don't think that the cooperation between RedHat and Corel is great - it is. But RedHat is still dwarfed by Corel, so it is a bit funny to see someone talking about Corel being backed by RedHat, instead of the other way around.
And as for Gnome vs KDE, it's no problems getting Gnome to look as "clean and sleek" as KDE if that's what you want. Personally I think that's boring. I run a fairly clean look, and I just love the draggable screen functionality in Enlightenment, and the look of themed GTK...
As for functionality and stability, the only piece of Gnome (0.99.1) I've had problems with is gmc (the Gnome frontend for Midnight Commander) - but I've not enjoyed using a GUI file manager since the Amiga Workbench and Disk Manager II anyways ;).. Even though TkDesk gets close for a Disk Manager replacement.
I think that you segmentation faults were probably related to your dev kernel and not to 5.2 as a scratch OS(2.0.36). I have done the same with gnome .992 and .993. I did have some problems with failed dependencies of the Imlibs but I think this was a bug with .992. I did'nt have this problem with .993. You might also want to check your hardware compatibility and memory.
There will be some major package updates in the new distribution (such as kernel 2.2.0, glibc 2.1, gnome 1.0 (?), kde 1.1 (?) and others).
/ RedHat/RPMS/cxhextris-1.0-13.sparc.html )
You can still argue that they should go with 5.3, but there are as many pro's as there are con's.
btw, we are sure that Red Hat will use 6.0, because they mention it in the rpm changelogs of some other rawhide rpms : e.g. the cxhextris rpm (changelog available at
http://rufus.w3.org/linux/RPM/rawhide/1.0/sparc
(as you can see, they made the decision more than a month ago.)