I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but this one brings up points I would like to address.
I am not a developer, I am a user. I don't believe the developers of open source software are obligated to me in any way shape or form and I thank them for the efforts they put in to making the wonderful software I use.
I am not saying do not report bugs, I am not saying to not request features. I am saying do not think you are entitled to them. Do not cry, bitch and whine because developer X isn't fixing your particular bug fast enough. Do not rant and rave because project Y does not have the feature you want and the developers do not want to impliment it. You are not a unique and beautiful snowflake. GET OVER IT.
responsibility food
n 1: the social force that binds you to your obligations and the courses of action demanded by that force
Indeed I do, and since there are no obligations there can be no responsibility. Simply because I post my code for all to use does not oblige me to be slaves to the people who choose to download and use it.
Simply because I hand out free pepperoni pizza to people on the street today does not obligate me to do it tomorrow. Nor does it obligate me to give someone deluxe because he doesn't like pepperoni. Why do you not understand this?
You obiously have no idea what a community is.
Obviously, because I think a community is a group of people sharing common interests. Simply because I share common interests with you does not make me in any way responsible or obliged to you.
And if you don't want people to use your software, why bother to release it? Or do you just like wasting people's time looking at it and resources like Sourceforge? Do you write OS software? Let us know now, we won't bother to try it and it can die in peace.
Who said I didn't want people to use software I have written? The topic is not whether developers want their software used or not, that is irrelevant. The topic is whether developers are obligated to maintain open source software after it has been released. The answer is no.
As far as entitlement, most of us don't feel 'entitled' to updates. But it would be nice to be treated civily when we report bugs or suggest improvements.
I see, and if "it was fixed in CVS two weeks ago" is not civil enough for you then you have a warped sense of reality.
Ever run a BBS or moderated a discussion group?
Yes x2.
feel a responsibility to make my software as useful as possible to my users rather than what can make it through the corporate bureaucracy.
And I would feel just such a responsibility also if people were paying for my software. I however do not feel such a responsibility for my hobby, nor should people expect me to.
What's hilarious is that just a few days ago there was an article here on Slashdot lambasting Linspire because they were following the *word* of the GPL and not the *spirit* of it (by bundling proprietary software with their OS.) Now you're just posting the exact opposite viewpoint...
Which is it?
1. I never lambasted Linspire for their actions. 2. You operate under the false assumption that my views are contrary to the spirit of the GPL.
That too is a cop-out. There is a difference between taking responsibility for a project and being legally responsible.
I do not think responsibility means what you think it means. Please look it up in a dictionary and come back to the conversation after you have been educated.
If they want us out there promoting their product, they need to take some responsibility for addressing bugs and feature requests.
Who said all open source developers want you to do this? You talk like advertising their "product" is in some way benifitting them. You speak in capitalistic terms.
What would happen if Debian, Mozilla, or Samba (for example) said "our license doesn't require us to fix any bugs, and we just don't feel like it".
One of two things: 1. It would be forked. 2. It would fall in to disuse and die of bit rot.
Open Source is described as a community, so while you might not be legally responsible, you might have some obligations to the community at large.
No, you don't. Developers have no responsibilities to the OSS community, no one does. They develop because they want to, they fix bugs and add requested features because they want their software to be useful. The OSS community is a voluntary one. Do not assume for a minute that you are in some way entitled to any of this software, entitled to any bug fixes or entitled to any new features of any kind but be thankful to the people who provide them.
For christ sake, you all speak of the developers responsibility as if they are in some way indentured servants to provide you with your every whim. To whip out bug fixes in seconds and slave over millions of lines of code. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. If the entire development population of debian, mozilla or samba got it in their heads to stop all development of their projects today they could do so. They are under no obligation to you or anyone else.
Seriously, why do you people feel you are in some way entitled to updates, bug fixes, new features or the software at all?
I think you missed out on the whole "THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES PROVIDE THE PROGRAM "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU" part in almost every OSS license. (Quoted verbatim from the GNU GPL v2)
This means, in effect, that they do not have any responsibility to you, period. You can either accept it or not use it. This is not a cop-out, this is the way it is.
The problem is that people like you believe you are entitled to something. You are not. Get over it.
In the current FFXI economy 5 million gil isn't really a huge amount of money. At level 70 you really should be able to make 5 million in under a day's play.
5 million gil is a huge amount of money. You can make it in a day if you are *lucky* doing BC/KSNM (which I have never been), otherwise it will take months of farming/crafting/HELM.
I have no idea what server you play on where you can make 5 mil a day guaranteed but I sure hope they open migrations to it.
World of Warcraft hasn't been having anywhere near as large problem with goldsellers than FFXI has. The reason is that WoW was designed well, and FFXI - well, wasn't.
Right, just yesterday my friend at work bought WoW gold. Another friend told me if he traded in his truck for a car which would be better on gas then he could afford to buy 1000 gold every two weeks. Yet another friend offered to give me items purchased through bought gold. WoW has huge RMT problems, it's just not as evident because it is a lot easier in WoW to make gold than it is to make gil in FFXI.
RMT has many negative effects, but the assertation that you have to buy gil to progress is just flat out wrong. Anyone who believes it is just looking for an excuse for their cheating.
If you are insinuating that I buy gil then I expect you to retract your statement.
I am a level 70 black mage on the Unicorn server. I have never bought gil. I did not say you have to buy gil to *progress*. I did say however that you have to buy gil to be able to afford items of moderate worth. I currently have around 1.4 million gil and I cannot afford many equipment peices that I should have. Some are over the 5 million gil mark.
I wish he would speak for himself! RMT has almost destroyed the economy of FFXI to the point where you have to buy in game currency (gil) in order to afford anything of even moderate worth. This was due to the RMT gil sellers dominance and monopoly over entire mines, harvesting and logging areas, notorious monsters, etc. Only recently that SE has banned 700 accounts and seized over 300 billion gil have things been normalizing. This was done in early Feb and prices are still dropping, slowly but surely, on most commodity items.
RMT has real effects on MMORPGs, some games more than others depending on how the economy works.
Wow, NCSoft just made up my mind for me. Auto Assault looked like it might be a pretty good game so I sighed up for the beta, downloaded it, patched it all up and was presented an activation key to play this weekend.
Since this article came out I have uninstalled it completely, deleted every single email I have ever received from NCSoft and vow never to play any of their games until they change their stance. If I'm paying for a service there better not be ads no matter how "unintrusive" they may be.
I hope NCSoft reads these comments, I am a heavy gamer who subscribes to multiple MMOGs and they have just lost any chance to gain my money.
Planetside's core gameplay has remained close to its original concept despite rather large (pun) additions to the game.
Oh I wish that were true. I stopped playing because the game got too rediculous, LIU runs, these shielded capitol bases, etc. Hell, I remember when there was no lattice. When the game was simple it was fun, you could jump on, find a hot spot, HART in and kill some NC/TR scum. But because of all this extra junk it just became stupid.
Wow, you completely missed the point. The point is the only way to find out about most softwares EULAs is to buy the software package first. At that point every software retailer I am aware of WILL NOT accept open software package returns for refund if you disagree with the EULA you wern't able to read!
Right, EULAs on web pages are really great sources of information, unless I'm buying my first computer. Then what?
And even if I do have a computer they are not universally available. For example, please find for me the EULA for the full version of the game F.E.A.R.
Slashdot Mirror
Ahh, but you could unfold it completely as such:
OOO
OOO
OOO
AAAXXXBBBGGG
AAAXXXBBBGGG
AAAXXXBBBGGG
MMM
MMM
MMM
And be able to see the entire contents. It may not be as pretty but it would all show up.
If anything, you seem to have a highly inflated sense of your capabilities just from the comment you made.
I think you have a highly inflated sense of your own capabilities if you think you have any way to know what the GPs capabilities are.
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but this one brings up points I would like to address.
I am not a developer, I am a user. I don't believe the developers of open source software are obligated to me in any way shape or form and I thank them for the efforts they put in to making the wonderful software I use.
I am not saying do not report bugs, I am not saying to not request features. I am saying do not think you are entitled to them. Do not cry, bitch and whine because developer X isn't fixing your particular bug fast enough. Do not rant and rave because project Y does not have the feature you want and the developers do not want to impliment it. You are not a unique and beautiful snowflake. GET OVER IT.
You mean like this?
responsibility
food
n 1: the social force that binds you to your obligations and the courses of action demanded by that force
Indeed I do, and since there are no obligations there can be no responsibility. Simply because I post my code for all to use does not oblige me to be slaves to the people who choose to download and use it.
Simply because I hand out free pepperoni pizza to people on the street today does not obligate me to do it tomorrow. Nor does it obligate me to give someone deluxe because he doesn't like pepperoni. Why do you not understand this?
You obiously have no idea what a community is.
Obviously, because I think a community is a group of people sharing common interests. Simply because I share common interests with you does not make me in any way responsible or obliged to you.
And if you don't want people to use your software, why bother to release it? Or do you just like wasting people's time looking at it and resources like Sourceforge? Do you write OS software? Let us know now, we won't bother to try it and it can die in peace.
Who said I didn't want people to use software I have written? The topic is not whether developers want their software used or not, that is irrelevant. The topic is whether developers are obligated to maintain open source software after it has been released. The answer is no.
As far as entitlement, most of us don't feel 'entitled' to updates. But it would be nice to be treated civily when we report bugs or suggest improvements.
I see, and if "it was fixed in CVS two weeks ago" is not civil enough for you then you have a warped sense of reality.
Ever run a BBS or moderated a discussion group?
Yes x2.
feel a responsibility to make my software as useful as possible to my users rather than what can make it through the corporate bureaucracy.
And I would feel just such a responsibility also if people were paying for my software. I however do not feel such a responsibility for my hobby, nor should people expect me to.
It's not my fault it wasn't funny. Get over it.
What's hilarious is that just a few days ago there was an article here on Slashdot lambasting Linspire because they were following the *word* of the GPL and not the *spirit* of it (by bundling proprietary software with their OS.) Now you're just posting the exact opposite viewpoint...
Which is it?
1. I never lambasted Linspire for their actions.
2. You operate under the false assumption that my views are contrary to the spirit of the GPL.
That too is a cop-out. There is a difference between taking responsibility for a project and being legally responsible.
I do not think responsibility means what you think it means. Please look it up in a dictionary and come back to the conversation after you have been educated.
If they want us out there promoting their product, they need to take some responsibility for addressing bugs and feature requests.
Who said all open source developers want you to do this? You talk like advertising their "product" is in some way benifitting them. You speak in capitalistic terms.
What would happen if Debian, Mozilla, or Samba (for example) said "our license doesn't require us to fix any bugs, and we just don't feel like it".
One of two things:
1. It would be forked.
2. It would fall in to disuse and die of bit rot.
Open Source is described as a community, so while you might not be legally responsible, you might have some obligations to the community at large.
No, you don't. Developers have no responsibilities to the OSS community, no one does. They develop because they want to, they fix bugs and add requested features because they want their software to be useful. The OSS community is a voluntary one. Do not assume for a minute that you are in some way entitled to any of this software, entitled to any bug fixes or entitled to any new features of any kind but be thankful to the people who provide them.
For christ sake, you all speak of the developers responsibility as if they are in some way indentured servants to provide you with your every whim. To whip out bug fixes in seconds and slave over millions of lines of code. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. If the entire development population of debian, mozilla or samba got it in their heads to stop all development of their projects today they could do so. They are under no obligation to you or anyone else.
Seriously, why do you people feel you are in some way entitled to updates, bug fixes, new features or the software at all?
I think you missed out on the whole "THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES
PROVIDE THE PROGRAM "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED
OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS
TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU" part in almost every OSS license. (Quoted verbatim from the GNU GPL v2)
This means, in effect, that they do not have any responsibility to you, period. You can either accept it or not use it. This is not a cop-out, this is the way it is.
The problem is that people like you believe you are entitled to something. You are not. Get over it.
I wonder how the government proposed "Copyright reform" would look like.
Wonder no longer, it was the DMCA.
The mini flopped because of its lack of features out of the box.
The mini flopped?
In the current FFXI economy 5 million gil isn't really a huge amount of money. At level 70 you really should be able to make 5 million in under a day's play.
5 million gil is a huge amount of money. You can make it in a day if you are *lucky* doing BC/KSNM (which I have never been), otherwise it will take months of farming/crafting/HELM.
I have no idea what server you play on where you can make 5 mil a day guaranteed but I sure hope they open migrations to it.
World of Warcraft hasn't been having anywhere near as large problem with goldsellers than FFXI has. The reason is that WoW was designed well, and FFXI - well, wasn't.
Right, just yesterday my friend at work bought WoW gold. Another friend told me if he traded in his truck for a car which would be better on gas then he could afford to buy 1000 gold every two weeks. Yet another friend offered to give me items purchased through bought gold. WoW has huge RMT problems, it's just not as evident because it is a lot easier in WoW to make gold than it is to make gil in FFXI.
RMT has many negative effects, but the assertation that you have to buy gil to progress is just flat out wrong. Anyone who believes it is just looking for an excuse for their cheating.
If you are insinuating that I buy gil then I expect you to retract your statement.
I am a level 70 black mage on the Unicorn server. I have never bought gil. I did not say you have to buy gil to *progress*. I did say however that you have to buy gil to be able to afford items of moderate worth. I currently have around 1.4 million gil and I cannot afford many equipment peices that I should have. Some are over the 5 million gil mark.
IGE = RMT, which is not the Devil
I wish he would speak for himself! RMT has almost destroyed the economy of FFXI to the point where you have to buy in game currency (gil) in order to afford anything of even moderate worth. This was due to the RMT gil sellers dominance and monopoly over entire mines, harvesting and logging areas, notorious monsters, etc. Only recently that SE has banned 700 accounts and seized over 300 billion gil have things been normalizing. This was done in early Feb and prices are still dropping, slowly but surely, on most commodity items.
RMT has real effects on MMORPGs, some games more than others depending on how the economy works.
Wow, NCSoft just made up my mind for me. Auto Assault looked like it might be a pretty good game so I sighed up for the beta, downloaded it, patched it all up and was presented an activation key to play this weekend.
Since this article came out I have uninstalled it completely, deleted every single email I have ever received from NCSoft and vow never to play any of their games until they change their stance. If I'm paying for a service there better not be ads no matter how "unintrusive" they may be.
I hope NCSoft reads these comments, I am a heavy gamer who subscribes to multiple MMOGs and they have just lost any chance to gain my money.
Planetside's core gameplay has remained close to its original concept despite rather large (pun) additions to the game.
Oh I wish that were true. I stopped playing because the game got too rediculous, LIU runs, these shielded capitol bases, etc. Hell, I remember when there was no lattice. When the game was simple it was fun, you could jump on, find a hot spot, HART in and kill some NC/TR scum. But because of all this extra junk it just became stupid.
Yeah, no one went to see the remake of a remake, I wonder why...
Then I ask for immediate acceleration.
You ask to be launched immediately at great speed?
My original comment was about EULAs and companies *in general*.
If you don't understand that, then you missed the point.
EULAs are laws are they? Hmm, strange, they seem to be END USER LICENSE AGREEMENTS, which are CONTRACTS.
A contract requires a MEETING OF THE MINDS, which means if one party does not understand what they are agreeing to the contract is NULL and VOID.
You know - single-source, limited configuration, with custom cases?
Ohhhh yeah! Like Dell.
Wow, you completely missed the point. The point is the only way to find out about most softwares EULAs is to buy the software package first. At that point every software retailer I am aware of WILL NOT accept open software package returns for refund if you disagree with the EULA you wern't able to read!
This is moral?
Notice I said "a company" and not Apple.
Please research for me the EULA for the full version of the game F.E.A.R.
Right, EULAs on web pages are really great sources of information, unless I'm buying my first computer. Then what?
And even if I do have a computer they are not universally available. For example, please find for me the EULA for the full version of the game F.E.A.R.