Funny, I distinctly remember being with more Apple layoffs in one room at a single job fair.
Don't know what to tell you. Since it is a publically held company, Apple has to report any sizeable layoffs. And regardless, the Mac sites would hear about it. As I understand it, many of those that have been laid off were contractors, not employees.
The "50" number is rough, though. I should have clarified that. What I meant was "very few."
The legal system doesn't protect "ideas", it protects patents, trademarks, and copyrights. Which is Aqua supposed to be?
You'd have to ask Apple legal. I'm sure they've taken steps to see that Microsoft can't ship Aqua. How that pans out in legal terms, I don't know.
Probably because people don't give a * about Apple's wishes, and because people want to make the point that Apple's IP claims are both futile and bogus.
So they make a theme just to spite Apple? Not exactly constructive.
Wouldn't it be more noble to aim at making something better, or at least, different. I don't see what justice there is in copying something Apple created, and saying "you don't own it."
Hehehe. You know that MS did save your precious PC maker known as Apple. They really did.
Oh it was a huge boost, no doubt. And Office is essential. But Microsoft doesn't "own a good chunk" as the one post put it.
You are crazy about company that fucks you over with every piece of hardware they sell.
If that was the case, I wouldn't be buying it. I cannot recall ever screaming in anger at Apple hardware. I have cursed out x86 hardware on more than one occassion.
Yeah, I know it's an inanimate object, but I felt better afterwards.
Its funny, but everyone gets so riled up about how great Apple is, but it is exactly the same thing as Microsoft.
I'm going to be blunt. This is garbage. If you really believe that Microsoft and Apple are at all the same, you don't know Apple very well.
The reason they ask theme makers to take down Aqua clones is very simple: they cannot play favorites. If they don't vigorously defened their rights and brand image, they lose them. Apple needs to ability for somebody to look at the screen and say "hey, that's Mac OS X."
If I am a painter and you made a painting that looks like my painting, does that mean I get to tell you not to show anyone your painting?
I invite you over to my gallery and show you a painting I created. You then go home and set out to paint something that looks as close to mine as possible, then release it to the public without asking my person. Is that good ethics?
But this doesn't have much to do with what's going on. The main issue is that the law says Apple has to always defened its creations, or never. There is no in between. That's why they have to go after theme makers.
is there a double standard here between Apple and Microsoft? I just can't understand why when Microsoft does something like this it's the "Evil Empire" but when Apple does the same it's defended by the community
Well, Microsoft is out for world domination, for one.
Apple announces Darwin, Microsoft announces product activation. You make the call.
Apple's the one with $4.2 billion in the bank, who has laid off a total of 50 people since the PC industry downturn, and (with one exception) has profitable every quarter since Q1 1998. Contrast this to all the mass layoffs throughout the industry. There is tremendous value in the company.
PC makers, along with motherboard designers integrate more cutting edge features that ever, and do so with great stability and success
Stability? Which industry are you talking about? Certainly not the one with Gateway, Compaq, VA and HP in it.
Apple has some of the best hardware overall in the industry. The were the first to ship DVD-R, first with built-in wireless antennas, first (and only, as far as I can tell) with gigabit ethernet standard on desktop hardware, and the legacy-free aspect of the iMac certainly drove USB acceptance. Their machines are quite energy efficient, and in some cases, fanless. Their towers are the easiest to manipulate of any manufacturer I've seen. There are weak spots, like the bus speed, but there is plenty to appreciate as well.
Software makers, especially Microsoft, cater to both the newbie while still offering powerful professional features (much like FontSync and ColorSync) all while maintaining tight integration with said PC makers
Tight intergration with PC makers? Is that intergration as in "include Netscape and we'll revoke your license" or as in "this driver keeps giving me error messages?"
Build some cool enclosures that both look nice and are a dream to work with. Boom. No more need for Apple.
It's just that simple, eh?:) I'm always surprised to hear people really do believe people buy Macs just because they look cool. That's just icing. And the bit about a "dream to work with," you sure make that sound easy to implement. It's not a one time thing. It's a design philoshopy, one that costs substantial time and money to develop, maintain and enforce. Apple spends a considerable amount on continually evolving the concept of a personal computer. Those 30% margins? A lot of it goes right back into the products.
It should be no surprise that Apple wants to defend one of the very things that differentiates itself from the commodity Wintel PC market.
You're right, it's not. The legal system says Apple has to virgiously defend its ideas at every point along the way, or loses the right to do so later. I don't think Apple's really all that concerned about people buying a machine to run Linux instead of a Mac just because E has an Aqua theme.
But here's something else I'm wondering about -- why are people still creating Aqua themes? Apple has asked repeatedly for people to stop. Why does this continue? Surely theme creators can come up with something new. Why not just respect Apple's wishes? It's not like OpenSSH, where you need replication for compatibility reasons.
You don't even have to look at it from a legal perspective since they haven't actually sued anyone. What if somebody asked you to remove a desktop picture they created from your theme package? Wouldn't you do it? Is this all that different?
But this is some pretty serious hardware. The TwinView thing is a video card with two ports on it. The SuperDrive is a DVD/DVD-R/CD-RW drive.
iMacs start at $999. Towers start at $1699. Apple averages ~30% gross margins because it has a software, hardware and a platform to develop and maintain. Much of the software is outright free, and all Mac users also get free email and 20MB web space/nework storage -- all without ads.
dev tools comes on a separate CD, so id highly doubt theyd send you both
This is from the page I referenced in my original post:
Full Upgrade Program
The Mac OS X full upgrade package includes:
-- Mac OS X version 10.1 CD (upgrade install)
-- Mac OS 9.2.1 CD (upgrade install)
-- Developer Tools CD
-- User guide and electronic documentation
Basically, the right button works the same as a control click, and the wheel scrolls the Finder windows and application windows. Functionality in Classic mode is dependent on software.
The right button worked universally on most USB mice even under 10.0.0. The wheel only worked in some apps.
I believe Mac OS X is the brand name, and 10.1 is the revision. The official name is:
Mac OS X 10.1
My guess is the X is to clearly distinguish this Mach/BSD platform from the earlier versions of Mac OS X. If it all seems strange, remember the whole Solaris/SunOS thing.
The one thing we discovered was that some applications (notably Foxpro, etc.) worked far slower on the Macs. I'm not sure but I was guessing that this was an optimization issue..
This probably had a lot to do with the fact that Microsoft apps on the Mac were direct ports of the Windows versions for long time. Performance was horrible, and Word 6 was probably the epitome of this situation.
In 1997, Microsoft created the MacBU -- Macintosh Business Unit. It's run as a separate company. (I believe it's based in Mountain View, CA). They develop Office, IE and Outlook Express. All of these apps were written from the ground up for the Mac. They are seperate products from the Windows family (different features), but they are compatible. Office 2001 got rave reviews across the board, and many felt it was actually better than its Windows counterpart.
I suspect (though cannot guarantee) you will not see the performance problems you describe in Office X.
There is still Microsoft software for the Mac that is not developed by the MacBU. This includes Media Player, Outlook and Messenger. These applications are direct ports from Windows, and are generally considered, well... it can certainly be argued that there's room for improvement.
However, one thing that worries me is whether or not they will include Dev Tools.
From reading this page, it sounds like ordering a copy through the mail ($20) version will get you the Dev Tools, but the one in the stores will not. Depending on how you interpret the text, the $20 version may also give you a FULL 10.1 CD, rather than just an updater. That would explain all the shinanigans you have to go through to get it.
The 6-12 week thing for delivery is annoying. Of course, you can also download the dev tools for free.
I am also a big fan of MSIE:Mac, but it has a really nasty SSL bug that prevents me from using it for anything other than basic browsing. Basically, most sites are unable to establish an SSL connection and respond with an error like "Decryption error"
I've never ever seen this. But the MacIE team has recently been made aware of an issue with mod_ssl.
Depends on what you do. I spend a lot of time in Photoshop, but the presence of Apache/PHP/MySQL + BBEdit, SSH and Office all in the same package is a boon.
Native Illustrator 10 is specifically discussed here:
A DVD iBook with a 12" screen costs about $1500. An Intel-based laptop gives you an equivalent or faster processor, DVD and a 14" or 15" screen for a little less than that.
And it comes with firewire, ethernet and wireless antenneas? Is the processor actually faster, or just a higher clock rating?
Anyway, the point is moot. Apple has higher gross margins because it has an entire platform and various software products (many of which are free) to develop and market. Many grey box makers just slap a bunch of components in a box and compete to provide the lowest margins. That makes PCs more accessible financially, but it does not solve the problem of making them more accessible in terms of human interaction. It is a not an equation for evolving the concept of a personal computer. That takes product development. Forgetting that has undoubtably contributed to the huge downturn in the PC market.
The other problem is that you don't get much of a choice: if you don't like Apple's choice of peripherals (like their awful touch pad), you are out of luck.
How is the touch pad "awful?" And in terms of peripherals, the vast majority of wintel USB/FireWire devices work out of the box, or you can find drivers for them.
And, with its G3 processor, it's questionable whether the iBook is even fast enough to run reasonably complex OS X applications.
Is this based on personal experience with Mac OS X 10.1 on an iBook?
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Funny, I distinctly remember being with more Apple layoffs in one room at a single job fair.
Don't know what to tell you. Since it is a publically held company, Apple has to report any sizeable layoffs. And regardless, the Mac sites would hear about it. As I understand it, many of those that have been laid off were contractors, not employees.
The "50" number is rough, though. I should have clarified that. What I meant was "very few."
The legal system doesn't protect "ideas", it protects patents, trademarks, and copyrights. Which is Aqua supposed to be?
You'd have to ask Apple legal. I'm sure they've taken steps to see that Microsoft can't ship Aqua. How that pans out in legal terms, I don't know.
Probably because people don't give a * about Apple's wishes, and because people want to make the point that Apple's IP claims are both futile and bogus.
So they make a theme just to spite Apple? Not exactly constructive.
Wouldn't it be more noble to aim at making something better, or at least, different. I don't see what justice there is in copying something Apple created, and saying "you don't own it."
- Scott
I think he meant hardware stability, not corporate stability.
Then I direct my comments to the "success" portion of that sentece.
Still, I don't understand how hardware itself is inherently stable or unstable. I guess it could tip over, though.
- Scott
Hehehe. You know that MS did save your precious PC maker known as Apple. They really did.
Oh it was a huge boost, no doubt. And Office is essential. But Microsoft doesn't "own a good chunk" as the one post put it.
You are crazy about company that fucks you over with every piece of hardware they sell.
If that was the case, I wouldn't be buying it. I cannot recall ever screaming in anger at Apple hardware. I have cursed out x86 hardware on more than one occassion.
Yeah, I know it's an inanimate object, but I felt better afterwards.
- Scott
Its funny, but everyone gets so riled up about how great Apple is, but it is exactly the same thing as Microsoft.
I'm going to be blunt. This is garbage. If you really believe that Microsoft and Apple are at all the same, you don't know Apple very well.
The reason they ask theme makers to take down Aqua clones is very simple: they cannot play favorites. If they don't vigorously defened their rights and brand image, they lose them. Apple needs to ability for somebody to look at the screen and say "hey, that's Mac OS X."
- Scott
If I am a painter and you made a painting that looks like my painting, does that mean I get to tell you not to show anyone your painting?
I invite you over to my gallery and show you a painting I created. You then go home and set out to paint something that looks as close to mine as possible, then release it to the public without asking my person. Is that good ethics?
But this doesn't have much to do with what's going on. The main issue is that the law says Apple has to always defened its creations, or never. There is no in between. That's why they have to go after theme makers.
- Scott
For example, why did Apple limit all the licensing agreements so noone could manufacture a Mac clone?
Because it was driving the platform into the ground. The Mac, as a platform, is in much better shape today then when the cloner makers were around.
Hell, I'd love to have a Mac at my home, but not for a price that would make my parents broke!
iMacs start at $999, and iBooks at $1299.
But the only thing they've returned back is the kernel, which is of very little practical use.
Ummm... what? How about QuickTime Streaming Server, NetInfo, OpenPlay, and CDSA? They've also submitted patches to FreeBSD and Apache.
- Scott
the apple faiths would not be yelling about how M$ spent 'so much time and money' on developing the 'look and feel'
:)
Mac users certainly wouldn't, but hardcore Windows advocates might.
If M$ copied aqua, apple would lose a lot, however in the *nix world I feel that they would ony gain.
But the law doesn't care about this. It punishes you for playing favorites.
BTW doesn't M$ own a good chunk of apple?
It's very small. They're all non-voting shares.
TrollTech would probably release OS X QT
Already done.
- Scott
I would pay $5 for a really nice Aqua theme. Would you?
I suspect the theme community would crucify and attempt to dismantle any effort to charge for a theme.
- Scott
This attack on creativity and free speech should be defeated for the priciple alone.
Please explain how Apple protesting plagiarism of Aqua is an attack on creativity.
- Scott
is there a double standard here between Apple and Microsoft? I just can't understand why when Microsoft does something like this it's the "Evil Empire" but when Apple does the same it's defended by the community
Well, Microsoft is out for world domination, for one.
Apple announces Darwin, Microsoft announces product activation. You make the call.
- Scott
Personally, I think Apple should sue Microsoft for stealing the rubber ducky and putting it in Windows XP! That's just SO WRONG!!
Apple and Microsoft signed a cross-licensing contract back in 1997. The rubber ducky is covered under this agreement.
- Scott
Apple is always on the brink of disaster.
:) I'm always surprised to hear people really do believe people buy Macs just because they look cool. That's just icing. And the bit about a "dream to work with," you sure make that sound easy to implement. It's not a one time thing. It's a design philoshopy, one that costs substantial time and money to develop, maintain and enforce. Apple spends a considerable amount on continually evolving the concept of a personal computer. Those 30% margins? A lot of it goes right back into the products.
Apple's the one with $4.2 billion in the bank, who has laid off a total of 50 people since the PC industry downturn, and (with one exception) has profitable every quarter since Q1 1998. Contrast this to all the mass layoffs throughout the industry. There is tremendous value in the company.
PC makers, along with motherboard designers integrate more cutting edge features that ever, and do so with great stability and success
Stability? Which industry are you talking about? Certainly not the one with Gateway, Compaq, VA and HP in it.
Apple has some of the best hardware overall in the industry. The were the first to ship DVD-R, first with built-in wireless antennas, first (and only, as far as I can tell) with gigabit ethernet standard on desktop hardware, and the legacy-free aspect of the iMac certainly drove USB acceptance. Their machines are quite energy efficient, and in some cases, fanless. Their towers are the easiest to manipulate of any manufacturer I've seen. There are weak spots, like the bus speed, but there is plenty to appreciate as well.
Software makers, especially Microsoft, cater to both the newbie while still offering powerful professional features (much like FontSync and ColorSync) all while maintaining tight integration with said PC makers
Tight intergration with PC makers? Is that intergration as in "include Netscape and we'll revoke your license" or as in "this driver keeps giving me error messages?"
Build some cool enclosures that both look nice and are a dream to work with. Boom. No more need for Apple.
It's just that simple, eh?
It should be no surprise that Apple wants to defend one of the very things that differentiates itself from the commodity Wintel PC market.
You're right, it's not. The legal system says Apple has to virgiously defend its ideas at every point along the way, or loses the right to do so later. I don't think Apple's really all that concerned about people buying a machine to run Linux instead of a Mac just because E has an Aqua theme.
But here's something else I'm wondering about -- why are people still creating Aqua themes? Apple has asked repeatedly for people to stop. Why does this continue? Surely theme creators can come up with something new. Why not just respect Apple's wishes? It's not like OpenSSH, where you need replication for compatibility reasons.
You don't even have to look at it from a legal perspective since they haven't actually sued anyone. What if somebody asked you to remove a desktop picture they created from your theme package? Wouldn't you do it? Is this all that different?
- Scott
what would be the point?
Marketshare.
Marketshare of what?
- Scott
The top-of-the-line stock desktop machine doesn't even cost $4000:
$3,499.00
Dual 800MHz PowerPC G4
256K L2 & 2MB L3 per processor
256MB SDRAM memory
80GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce2 MX w/TwinView
Gigabit Ethernet
56K internal modem
But this is some pretty serious hardware. The TwinView thing is a video card with two ports on it. The SuperDrive is a DVD/DVD-R/CD-RW drive.
iMacs start at $999. Towers start at $1699. Apple averages ~30% gross margins because it has a software, hardware and a platform to develop and maintain. Much of the software is outright free, and all Mac users also get free email and 20MB web space/nework storage -- all without ads.
- Scott
A 750MHz Pentium is probably at least as fast as a 500MHz G3.
:)
Why do you say that?
A mouse, a pointing stick, and (to a lesser degree) a trackball give you that. A touchpad doesn't really.
So plug in a mouse.
It's my impression based on experimenting with a bunch of different machines at a computer store, as well as reading reviews of OS X in the Mac press.
10.1 is a whole different ballgame.
- Scott
dev tools comes on a separate CD, so id highly doubt theyd send you both
This is from the page I referenced in my original post:
Full Upgrade Program
The Mac OS X full upgrade package includes:
-- Mac OS X version 10.1 CD (upgrade install)
-- Mac OS 9.2.1 CD (upgrade install)
-- Developer Tools CD
-- User guide and electronic documentation
Basically, the right button works the same as a control click, and the wheel scrolls the Finder windows and application windows. Functionality in Classic mode is dependent on software.
The right button worked universally on most USB mice even under 10.0.0. The wheel only worked in some apps.
- Scott
I believe Mac OS X is the brand name, and 10.1 is the revision. The official name is:
Mac OS X 10.1
My guess is the X is to clearly distinguish this Mach/BSD platform from the earlier versions of Mac OS X. If it all seems strange, remember the whole Solaris/SunOS thing.
- Scott
The one thing we discovered was that some applications (notably Foxpro, etc.) worked far slower on the Macs. I'm not sure but I was guessing that this was an optimization issue..
This probably had a lot to do with the fact that Microsoft apps on the Mac were direct ports of the Windows versions for long time. Performance was horrible, and Word 6 was probably the epitome of this situation.
In 1997, Microsoft created the MacBU -- Macintosh Business Unit. It's run as a separate company. (I believe it's based in Mountain View, CA). They develop Office, IE and Outlook Express. All of these apps were written from the ground up for the Mac. They are seperate products from the Windows family (different features), but they are compatible. Office 2001 got rave reviews across the board, and many felt it was actually better than its Windows counterpart.
I suspect (though cannot guarantee) you will not see the performance problems you describe in Office X.
There is still Microsoft software for the Mac that is not developed by the MacBU. This includes Media Player, Outlook and Messenger. These applications are direct ports from Windows, and are generally considered, well... it can certainly be argued that there's room for improvement.
- Scott
However, one thing that worries me is whether or not they will include Dev Tools.
From reading this page, it sounds like ordering a copy through the mail ($20) version will get you the Dev Tools, but the one in the stores will not. Depending on how you interpret the text, the $20 version may also give you a FULL 10.1 CD, rather than just an updater. That would explain all the shinanigans you have to go through to get it.
The 6-12 week thing for delivery is annoying. Of course, you can also download the dev tools for free.
- Scott
I am also a big fan of MSIE:Mac, but it has a really nasty SSL bug that prevents me from using it for anything other than basic browsing. Basically, most sites are unable to establish an SSL connection and respond with an error like "Decryption error"
I've never ever seen this. But the MacIE team has recently been made aware of an issue with mod_ssl.
- Scott
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/
...
Not yet compatible with Mac OS X
Site is either confused or simply misleading. Mac OS X 10.1 comes with the newest version of QuickTime.
- Scott
I really wish they'd incorporate multiple virtual desktops like in X
I believe what you want is Space.dock.
- Scott
but if I'm in Classic all day, why upgrade
Depends on what you do. I spend a lot of time in Photoshop, but the presence of Apache/PHP/MySQL + BBEdit, SSH and Office all in the same package is a boon.
Native Illustrator 10 is specifically discussed here:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/
I hear there's a SourceForge project called NewsFlash, which is a Cocoa newsreader.
- Scott
A DVD iBook with a 12" screen costs about $1500. An Intel-based laptop gives you an equivalent or faster processor, DVD and a 14" or 15" screen for a little less than that.
And it comes with firewire, ethernet and wireless antenneas? Is the processor actually faster, or just a higher clock rating?
Anyway, the point is moot. Apple has higher gross margins because it has an entire platform and various software products (many of which are free) to develop and market. Many grey box makers just slap a bunch of components in a box and compete to provide the lowest margins. That makes PCs more accessible financially, but it does not solve the problem of making them more accessible in terms of human interaction. It is a not an equation for evolving the concept of a personal computer. That takes product development. Forgetting that has undoubtably contributed to the huge downturn in the PC market.
The other problem is that you don't get much of a choice: if you don't like Apple's choice of peripherals (like their awful touch pad), you are out of luck.
How is the touch pad "awful?" And in terms of peripherals, the vast majority of wintel USB/FireWire devices work out of the box, or you can find drivers for them.
And, with its G3 processor, it's questionable whether the iBook is even fast enough to run reasonably complex OS X applications.
Is this based on personal experience with Mac OS X 10.1 on an iBook?
- Scott