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Apple Still Says No To Aqua-Like Themes
JoFo writes: "Eric Yang, creator of several Aqua-like themes and skins for GTK+, KDE, Mozilla, gkrellm, and others, was forced by Apple to take down all Aqua-related projects on his web site. It appears they went to his employer as a way to strong-arm him. He writes on his web site 'I went to Apple to test cocoa for Mac OS X 10.1, and found a drag and drop problem with NSPopUpButtonCell. They didn't even pay me for my effort, yet they try to shut down my project. Isn't that ironic?'" Apple seems at least to be consistent in objecting to nearly any non-Apple project that reminds the company of Aqua, so maybe this was just a matter of time.
If they're that concerned about other people "copying" the look of their desktop, perhaps they're a bit too shallow and consider the aesthetic aspects of MacOS its best attribute.
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
Let me spell this out: Apple owns the copyright on the design. Apple has the right to enforce this. Anyone who thinks they can get away with it is kidding themselves.
Aqua is not the only thing they have going for them in Mac OS X(.1), but it's a big thing; it's what differentiaates them from MS in screenshots, etc. If any system can look like theirs, they lose out. I know it's nice, I'd like it on my Linux desktop as well, but it's Apple's property and this is their right, so let's not act too surprised that they try and stop it.
Let us, however, ignore that Be never cared, QNX doesn't care, and MS really, really doesn't care (it probably even makes them laugh when a Linux WM has a Windows theme). Apple is 'special' in that they have to keep their lawyers fed or they start to go ambulance chasing when they get bored.
I don't think that they will ever be able to claim rights to "all pretty translucent themes."
Just name it something else already.
If you get into trouble, throw some prior work, like your favorite drinking glass into evidence.
Why doesn't Apple seem to care about other older MacOS-like themes? Seems strange that they would only persue Aqua themes.
-- I'll cut you up so bad, you'll wish I'd never cut you up so bad!
. . . didn't Apple try this 'look and feel' legal action crap against M$ regarding Windows? If it didn't apply to M$ (as it obviously didn't), why can't we just tell them to get bent? Other than the fact that The Rich Make the Rules in the US, that is.
i thought apples were red? oh well...
im sorry, but i refuse to recognize apple as anything but a totalitarian institute that makes strange colorful (now, non aqua) boxes...
This might be flame bait for some, but why are we so upset about companies wanting to keep their own image?
Of all things to fight about, it seems that the appearance of a desktop should be the least of our worries. If Apple wants to keep their Aqua desktop to themselves, fine. Let's be creative and make something better. There are many themes out there that rival Apple in functionality and appearance.
I found a bug in NSImage that makes deallocating objects across the Objc-Java bridge fail, and I doubt I'll get a t-shirt. When he filed a bug report, apple make no cliam of repaying people for their free services. I don't think Linus sends people cash or free Tux Dolls when they make fixes to the kernel.
.rsrc file and split it into two, for instance).
I am kind of peeved at apple not allowing themes. Maybe they're just holding back on their own theming system for sometime before Macrh 23rd of next year. I guess they're philosophy makes sense: they want people to look at a Mac OS X machine and know for sure that it's a Mac OS X machine. Plus, if it's a theming system not from apple, future updates could hose the system over (The move from 10.0.4 to 10.1 to one
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
The law is designed such that if companies want to stop a few people from taking advantage of their work, they have to stop everyone.
For example, if a collection of friends decide to create an Aqua-like theme and distribute it, what's that to prevent Microsoft from doing the same?
Clearly Apple is in competition with Microsoft, and it doesn't have any particular desire to permit Microsoft to make use of it's so-called user interface innovations.
Apple clearly built the Aqua theme, and spent a lot of time and money developing it into something that Apple hopes to be a brand-identifier. For a 3rd party to create a very similar branding, and then release it in such a way that Microsoft could use it flys in the face of why Apple developed the interface to begin with: To outpace Microsoft in interface design.
So although I feel for the individuals who have spent so much effort to clone the Aqua interface, it is also easy to appreciate Apple's stance on this issue.
I guess Apple has not learned the lesson which resulted in their nearly single digit share of the computer market- namely that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
The more people who are familar with the Aqua theme the more people will admire it and the more people who will purchase OSX or an Apple product to run it on. The more people who see Aqua, the more people will realize how truly lame Microsoft Windows has become.
We users of Linux are not the enemy. It's our nature as evolutionists to adapt what is superior and advantageous and disgard what is not. We spread the word, we improve the breed. We also turn vicously and persistently against those who oppose this natural way. Their legal actions can't change nature, they can only create ill will.
I hope someone outside the US will take up the Aqua bandwagon and propagate the theme. It's beautiful.
They didn't even pay me for my effort, yet they try to shut down my project. Isn't that ironic?'
After waxing stupid about the irony, perhaps you might try and learn something from your experience.
1. Don't copy or modify a company's crown jewels. They get testy about this.
2. Don't expect to get paid unless you have it in writing.
Boring subject. But let me tell you: I've switch a while ago from proprietary OS (Windows and OS X) to a more open-minded one, LInux. Even if at first it wasn't perfect and a little painful, all I can say when I read this, is that I am really glad to have made the move. Thinking I could have given my money to such an arrogant and stupid company brings me chills in my backspin. Apple may be thinking they are after a golden goose with Aqua and their OS X, but they apparently don't even listen to their own users who are all bitching and complaining at their unusable semi-transparent windows and unproductive dock.
-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
It's a good thing I downloaded the Aqua Mozilla skin a couple days ago! lol, it's pretty sweet. Fuck Apple.
Now, we leave his capture to Apple's lawyers.
Trolltech had to recreate the Aqua look for Qt (the GUI toolkit, not QuickTime), since Qt emulates the look of the native system rather than wrapping. Like all other QStyles, there is probably close to no platform specific code in the engine. Unfortunately, only the Qt/Mac release will feature this style, as it apparently would go against "Apple rules" to distribute this into other Qt releases, like X11. So I guess it is ok to emulate the Aqua look as long as you are going to run on the Apple platform. That or Apple specifically granted Trolltech this permission, as Trolltech has mentioned they "coordinated with Apple" to make Qt/Mac.
While I have suspected Qt/Mac will not be GPL for other reasons, I believe this is a really strong reason as to why it won't be. If it were GPL, then any coder could just snag the style and compile with X11. Why mess with pixmap styles when you have close to the real-deal as a rendering engine?
Apple has a really bad taste in their mouth from the last time their "look and feel" was blatantly copied. I've used Aqua quite a bit since it came out (one of our machines here at work runs OS X) and it is a *very* slick interface. If they set the precedent of tolerating copying by allowing us Linux users to use similar themes, M$ would have a very good argument to cover their butts when Apple inevitably sues them for doing the same thing.
-sting3r
as I understand it, MS won a case against apple years ago because "look and feel" were not considered copyrightable. now if these developers are pulling images from screenshots of the aqua gui and then copying those in to themes for other OS, that would be a clear cut copyright violation.. however I seriously doubt that is the case. It seems that this is just another case of big companies sicking their lawyers on the little guy. The little guy usually concedes because he doesn't have the money or the time to fight it.
It seems that the Steve Jobs dick mentality continues to permeate through apple.
-- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley
This is why IBM Compatible computers have the majorty of the computer market, Apple doesn't let anyone use any of their stuff, they are even more of control freaks then M$. Like a year ago our school got a price list from apple with upgrades and to upgrade the IMac 233mhz to 350mhz was fricking $300??!?!? Well, it really seems they haven't learnt their lesson, have they? They have made the same mistake they did years ago by closing off most 3rd party support. Proof? Pricewatch.com check out all the PC components to Apple components same with eBay Download.com, look at the huge selection of PC Software compared to Apple software..
How different is this from the lawsuit with Microsoft oh so many years ago over look and feel? Apple lost that battle, right? If so, then what possible claim can they have over a theme, which is essentially just look and feel?
If people are ripping off the actual icon files then that's one thing. But making something very similar, though not identical, seems like another look and feel issue.
In a real emergency, we would have all fled in terror, and you would not have been notified.
I think this is absolute nonesense.
6 24 6&mode=thread
In its barest sense they are tring to enforce their "ownership" on a mix of colors. What if i was to paint my car like a mac desktop.
Would they come after me?
Could they come after me?
Patent laws are just getting more and more ridiculous, especially with regards to electronics
its like the guy here in australia who patented the wheel
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/07/02/113
pffft
The Borg assimilated my race & all I got was this lousy T-shirt
"KaKa", the translucent runny brown theme.
Just imagine if Burger King has decided to sue Jack-in-the-Box because Jack's new chicken sandwich looks too close to Burger King's Chicken Sandwich.
Jack's new chicken sandwich is long and shaped identicial to Burger King. Shouldn't BK have the exclusive right to make this shaped Chicken sandwich.
Of course NOT!, so should Apple have exclusive right's to a theme? No.
Looking for any old 8-bit Heathkit/Zenith software/hardware - http://heathkit.garlanger.com
I'm surprised you could upgrade. 233-> 350 is a new mb, processor, memory, case (350 == no fan) and slotloading cdrom. All for a few mhz.
that can use the Ferrari prancing horse logo without express permission. Ferrari is even the only company, by actual court order, that can make cars that are SHAPED like Ferraris.
Ferrari is NOT the only company that can paint its cars red.
There are limits to claiming 'themes' as a trademark.
KFG
[First, please don't use the word "ironic" until you learn its meaning. That goes for all of you out there. This has been a major pet peeve of me since the early 90s when all those black and flannel-clad, angsty gen-Xers were big on the word "ironic" without actually knowing the definition of the word.]
Oh, they didn't pay you for your "testing" of their OS? Did they ever say they would pay you? Did they imply they'd pay you? Did they insinuate in any way that they'd pay you? Then why would you expect to be paid? This attitude is disconcertingly common in Free Software types. The 'look at me, I'll fix this problem for you, nevermind the fact you didn't ask me to, and you're a bastard if you don't pay me for it' attitude reeks of social maladjustment.
I don't see how the fact that you've pestered Apple for money makes it any more "ironic" that they'd try to shut you down when you rip off their interface. Apple went easy on IP-theft once, ONCE, which was enough to give Windows, the cut-rate Mac imitator, take over the desktop market.
I think Apple has learned its lesson. Just because your project is "free" doesn't make it any less of a threat to Apple's resurgence. Apple is hanging by threads as it is. Rats biting at the heels of elephants should not be surprised when they are trampled upon.
The bottomline? Apple invested heavily to develop the Aqua look and feel to set the new standard for desktop computing; Eric Yang attempts to profit (if only in terms of community recognition) from Apple's work. Who can be surprised when Apple takes offense?
If you have a problem with my views, REPLY, don't moderate!
Chicken sandwich is not very complex. A better example would be if HP started releasing their calculators, and they looked EXACTLY like TI's on the outside, but on the inside they were completely different. That could cause huge amounts of customer confusion.
It's not like you can patent the circle, but if you develop a multidimensional implementation of a mechanical device that utilizes circles, you've got something to claim IP over.
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Postus primus
Posta prima
Postum primum
take your pick depending on gender. In your case the third is probably appropriate.
How interesting. You bought something without checking compatibility, and it is somehow Apple's fault.
I love the "I hate Apples because I hate them" attitude. I am using an iBook right now, and can't for the life of my figure out why you have the keyboard so much, or what the problem is with the single mouse when the OS *expects* you to have a mouse with one button. I also can't figure out what the problem was with '95 Macs when compared with '95 era PCs. I don't remember a big speed differential.
When you have some actual rational reasons for disliking Macs then check back.
(Prepare to lose all karma)
Apple has changed, Apple is no longer the company it once was. Aside from the fruit-shaped logo and the menubar running across the top of the screen, Apple Computer is pretty much a modern consumerish NeXT. I've used Apple machines since my former job bought a small group of Lisas in 1983. While I mainly used Amiga and Windows machines at home, I had grown to love the Mac and it's various shaped beigeish gray enclosures. Over the years Apple had made one hellofa a platform. By 1992 we were using Quadra 950 and 800 machines stuffed full of ram, video and graphics nubus cards, and all sorts of wild accelerators. The MacOS (System 7.1 at the time) had no problem with our multiple monitors or our 640x480@30fps streams of mjpeg compressed video. Color correction, TrueType fonts, postscript, ethernet networking (both TCP/IP and AppleTalk/Ethertalk) worked great right out of the box. Macs in that era were ungodly expensive and worth every penny. Perhaps they still are today, though in a slightly different way.
Then came 1993 when Apple start seeding their early PowerPC machines, and eventually began selling them in 1994. Apple forgot how to make great hardware. They began to rely on the CPU to do everything. Sure the PowerPC had some great oomph, but it alone could not make up for poor design elsewhere. Luckily, the second generation of PowerPC based macs in 1995 (7500, 7600, 8500, 9500) were **very** improved, yet still nothing like the Quadras were back in their day. Eventually the third generation (G3) of Macs shipped, first in beigish gray boxes and later in the funky blue&white swing-down enclosure. By now Apple was bring back the performance, incorporating USB and Firewire. But what they had was nothing much more than a modern PC with a different CPU and OS. The G4 machines with their mighty PowerPC 74X0 CPUs have allowed us to do some pretty exciting things with the CPU alone, but again, it's nothing too special.
So what has Apple done to differentiate itself? When Steve Jobs returned he and his gang of NeXT thugs took the marketing and software angle. They introduced a funky new interface that looked nothing like MacOS, NeXTstep, or Windows. They created some cool consumer and pro apps (iMovie, iDVD, iTunes, Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro) that made use of the G4 architecture and other features of their machines. They've also become far more mainstream with their retail stores, online ordering, and strict warranty policies.
It comes to me as no shock that Apple wants to defend it's GUI look-and-feel. I love the Macs I use at work, but to be honest, Apple is always on the brink of disaster. Consider the following: PC makers, along with motherboard designers integrate more cutting edge features that ever, and do so with great stability and success. Software makers, especially Microsoft, cater to both the newbie while still offering powerful professional features (much like FontSync and ColorSync) all while maintaining tight integration with said PC makers. Drop the price a bit, woo some users. Build some cool enclosures that both look nice and are a dream to work with. Boom. No more need for Apple.
If you think about it, this is already happening. And fast. As every month ticks by, Apple has to work harder, better, and faster to keep up. It should be no surprise that Apple wants to defend one of the very things that differentiates itself from the commodity Wintel PC market.
Apple has done some great things over the past 25 years, perhaps more so than any other company short of maybe SiliconGraphics and IBM. I applaud their efforts and love working with their products. I also wish them the best.
On one hand, I can see how Apple might be a bit sensitive about people copying their look and feel, especially after loosing their Windows battle with Microsoft in the late 80's.
On the other hand, if Apple were smart, they'd parly the desire for Aqua themes into Mac sales. A simple and direct ad campaign, "why settle for a cheap immitation when you can have the real thing..."
Perhaps instead of shutting down Aqua themes, require that they include an icon and link back to Apple
Hmmm
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
... If I were an Apple executive, it'd seem like free advertising to me. Besides, they took his product, so the least they could do is allow him to continue development on it.
And since everyone in the open source 'movement' seems to believe that Apple supports them, why didn't Apple just offer to pay him for the project and make him one of their developers?
It's what I would have done.
Do you like German cars?
Apple legal has always been very brutal. If you go back far enough, you'll see that they have not lost a match yet, except for Apple vs. Microsoft. Even so, they did get Microsoft to basically admit that they just ripped off the MacOS. They won the legal battles with Colorsync, Quicktime VR, some company that copied the imac, and some other stuff. Not to mention a million and one Cease And Desist orders to places like macosrumors.com.
Personally, I think Apple should sue Microsoft for stealing the rubber ducky and putting it in Windows XP! That's just SO WRONG!! it's Apple's ducky, and those punks at Microsoft think they can just horizontally flip it and call it theirs. It doesn't work that way! I'd go so far as to say the rubber ducky should be Apple's mascot.
Wait. I think I heard from somewhere that Microsoft did remove the rubber ducky. Any truth to this?
I can understand why Apple doesn't want other operating systems to look like OS X, but why don't they want Mozilla to be able to look like an OS X app?
The shareholder is always right.
All I have to say to Apple is:
SOSUMI
y not go for the purely markting-whore stance and call it MacO-Sex... surely combining a Unix backend and something else most geeks pine for constantly'd have to push up sales?
I don't believe in nothing no more... I'm going to law school!
Alright seriously people. As a company, apple makes most of it's money off of computer sales if i'm not mistaken (which i might be, but we'll ignore that for now). That's why their computers are more expensive, but they have the mac-fanatics out there to buy them. What this means is: the clones were good for consumers, however bad for apple, because they could produce cheaper computers, which's where most of apple's money comes from. So it's fairly obvious why Apple *did* get rid of them, so atleast from Apple's perspective this wasn't quite the *bad* move you seem to think it was.
If somebody was trying to sell Mercedes-looking hood ornaments, so you can put it on your used honda, I imagine they would get sued.
Yes, I disagree with this, no car aficionado would mistake a junky hundai with a mercedes hood ornament *coughlinuxcough* for the real thing, but the "rest" of the population(the unwashed slobs) wouldn't know better. That's how I see the whole OS X UI debacle.
I would pay $5 for a really nice Aqua theme. Would you?
True, but not allowing developers to use the Aqua guideliness for OS X apps is simply moronic. Seriously.
Mozilla is an OpenSource project. This aqua skin could've very well made it into the nightly OS X builds as well as the final version of Netscape 6.x. But nooooooooo, Apple legal couldn't see that, could they. Idiots.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for Apple keeping the Aqua UI on OS X. It is one of the things that makes OS X what it is. However this was a dumb move that keeps the Aqua UI off of the very OS that it is intened to be used for. I sure as hell don't see Apple telling MS to stop using the genie effect within Office X pallets or white lines within Illustrator 10.
Apple legal has been going overboard for a little over a year now. I would advise all of you to complain.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
"He writes on his web site 'I went to Apple to test cocoa for Mac OS X 10.1, and found a drag and drop problem with NSPopUpButtonCell. They didn't even pay me for my effort, yet they try to shut down my project. Isn't that ironic?'"
Translation:
Gee Golly, I submitted a bug report once, and I can't understand why I'm not legally allowed to pirate their software. The interface designs arn't public domain and I'm so confused why theyre not letting me rip it off! They even sent lawyers after me, no Linux open-source project would do that!
C'mon guys.
=/
that every damn new neighborhood looks exactly like every other?
Why are there no lawsuits flying about that?
Why are there no lawsuits over the fact that midsize sedans are indistinguishabe at distances greater than 100 yards?
(e.g. Accord, Camry etc)
They have made the same mistake they did years ago by closing off most 3rd party support. Proof? Pricewatch.com check out all the PC components to Apple components same with eBay Download.com, look at the huge selection of PC Software compared to Apple software..
:)
Ahhh, the comforting statical clarity one can achieve by checking out things on PriceWatch and eBay.
I think that you are a bit misleaded. "Apple components" for the most part aren't made by Apple just the same as the components inside a Dell aren't manufactured by Dell. If you want a processor upgrade you aren't going to be buying it from Apple but from a 3rd party source (Sonnet is one name I think). Yeah, replacing a processor is far more expensive in an Apple machine but I think this has most to do with economies of scale. In some machines the processor sat in a ZIF slot making it a real easy no brainer to simply pop a new processor in. Expensive, but easy. (Not so with current machines I gather, though)
What closing off of 3rd party support are you referring to? I don't think that this is relevant to the subjec at hand (Aqua). Apple did kill of the clones but that was killing them. I think that Apple is actually more open for 3rd parties these days. Most internal components are industry standards (same RAM as in a PC, using PC standard ports (USB) instead of the Apple-specific ADB port...) I think that Apple has taken steps to try to foster a good symbiotic relationship with companies that make 3rd party hardware because it helps, not hinders the platform. Copying the visual appearance of the OS onto another platform is the opposite though - it dilutes their unique offering and their marketing (very important, that).
xylix
Why don't apple do some real work and put out real usable machines with a real operating systems. Ssshh, the way they (or any other company for that matters) has to pull out all stops just to defend a couple of colors like it is really important. If you make a usable and good product, people will like it and help you defend it - regardless if it's stripped purple and painted to look like your dog's butt... Oh well, the color schemes they have now aren't that far from that!
Spend your time, money, and effort doing something worthwhile. Stop harassing other people who are trying to do real work. Spin better Karma! Spread it around.
No, Eric Yang, it is not ironic. What it is going on is very simple. You are unilaterally, and retroactively, trying to impose some sort of bargain, agreement or understanding upon Apple. One that that they had no prior notice of, much less agreed to in advance.
When you, Eric Yang, tested cocoa for Mac OS X 10.1, and found a drag and drop problem with NSPopUpButtonCell, you did so without any prior expressed or even reasonably understood conditions, understandings, agreement, or contract. You gave a gift of your own free will. Apple had absolutely NO reasonable notice that you were doing your testing pursuant to your secret, unilateral, unexpressed subjective belief that if you did such work, you could "of course" help yourself to the intellectual property embodied in Apple's themes.
The solution next time is quite simple. Be honest and up-front. Contact Apple before you do the work and offer an explicit, clearly express contract: "I will do 'X' if you let me do 'Y.'" If Apple refuses your offer, then simply do not do the work.
What you should not do is give a gift -- or what every reasonable person would construe as a gift -- of service while holding a secret, undisclosed, subjective, unilateral understanding that the "gift" is in fact conditional, and then whine and complain when your previously undisclosed condition has not been satisfied.
Only Women Bleed (Sex, Sharia remix)
> I went to Apple to test cocoa for Mac OS X 10.1,
> and found a drag and drop problem with NSPopUpButtonCell.
> They didn't even pay me for my effort, yet they try to
> shut down my project. Isn't that ironic?
If I babysit your kids a few times, is it okay for me to smack them around a bit also?
Whew, that was close. That car nearly killed you. I saved your life. Shall we go back to my apartment?
Irony? No. Misplaced entitlement? Yes.
Nothing. Microsoft has already done this, in a way. The user interface for windows XP (called Luna) seems to take a lot of inspiration from Mac OS X without directly copying it.
And look at this shot. of Mac OS X:
Now look at these shots of the next version of windows CE (Pocket PC 2002).
Notice any similarities in the upper right of the screen?
As to whether this is legal (or would be if MS didn't happen to have billions of dollars), IANAL.
How's this, then...
I hate Macintrash because they suck.
--
It's true. 5 out of 5 doctors agree.
1. Apple's look and feel is pretty general, and there is tons of prior art for it. (pick your favorite shiny, transluscent, pretty image/skin)
2.
3.
4.
so that no one else can make a shiny transluscent pretty skin.
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
looks like win ce to me - would be a BIIIIIG stretch to say it rips off apple
If it's "illegal" for a PRIVATE CITIZEN to write frigging buttons and frames that just LOOK like some corporations' product then maybe what this country needs is a good old fashioned REVOLUTION.
Buddy, take it easy. This country may need many diverse things, but what we DON'T need right now are more disaffected assholes crying revolution, of all things, because Apple wants to NOT go out of business like every other tech company.
Just relax. It will be ok, I promise. If you *really* want to make themes for free, you can innovate and invent your own damn theme that isn't a copy of a large coporation's primary product differentiator.
If you people had any idea what people like me go through to create successful interfaces I don't think you would take this so lightly. Just because we do our work in Illustrator instead of emacs doesn't mean we're sitting there doing a paintjob. I used to code, I once wrote a device driver for Solaris [for a Gretag SPM-50 spectrophotometer if you're interested] but real UI design is the same amount of work.
Developers in general don't have to deal with criticism from VPs or C*Os about the validity of how their stored procedures are set up. You don't have to sit behind a one-way mirror and watch a user rip the result of the last 3 months of your life to shreds.
As far as Apple and Aqua goes, you have to realize what it is that Apple really sells. They provide a whole experience that spans hardware, software and everyhting else. They invested millions upon millions of dollars in developing Aqua so I don't think it's a big suprise when they see someone mucking with their stuff. I think they are less worried about "competition" than they are about their work being "diluted" and offered on a system that doesn't work as elegantly.
What is everyone's great desire to rip off Apple's look anyway? Make something better if you're the expert.
"Look and feel" arguments made by Apple have been lost in the past. Being "similar" is not a good enough reason to be shut down. Many cars are similar to others. Many tools are similar to Crescent's tools.
You cannot copyright a "look" or a "Feel." Perhaps a "Feel" can be patented as it involves a process or a series of processes. But a non-specific look cannot be copyrighted.
First, I would take the approach that making these themes can be a form of satire and is protected speech. The expression can be as deep or twisted as you like.
But only specific works can be copyrighted. Simply making a gui "shiney, blue and semi-transparent-looking" shouldn't be considered enough. Prior to the creation of Mac's Apple, I am certain other artists have created graphics with shiney, blue and semi-transparent-looking things in their works in the past. If Apple can sue based on that amount of similarity, the surely people who created their art prior to Apple's Aqua can sue the hell out of Apple.
But there must be hundreds of cases where copyright suits were lost on the grounds that the work in question weren't similar enough or were protected speech. This attack on creativity and free speech should be defeated for the priciple alone.
Apple's lawyers are just trying to earn their pay and justify their jobs. I hold them blameless. Apple believes they are protecting their stockholders' interests. I can blame them only for their lack of conscience and good sense.
Thoughts?
The buttons in the Aqua theme look like Dr. Mario vitamin pills. Is Apple infringing nintendo's look and feel now?
Actually, the "Vitamins" game in the freepuzzlearena package infringes both nintendo's patent 5,265,888 on the game of Dr. Mario (although non-infringing gameplay is also available, and the infringing gameplay can be compiled out) and Apple's trademark on clickable buttons that look like vitamin pills (the default theme; create others with the Allegro Grabber).
On Windows, you just need binaries, themepaks, source, and this DLL. On *N?X systems, you can recompile it from the source archive; it requires the Allegro library.
Have fun stepping on the toes of big corporations!Will I retire or break 10K?
No doubt. XP borrows quite a bit from the Aqua theme.
you asshole. how dare you compare BK to JB food ... I'm a starving college student.
thanks man. now i guess i'll go knaw on the refrigerator door or something for a while
Mirror:
Kde Aqua theme
I have to add this line because of the stupid Slashdot zlib filter.
My girlfriend bought a new Titanium G4 when it first came out (~ $5k w/ extra RAM so that she could run both Photoshop and browse the web at the same time). While it looks nice and all the magnetic clasp that everyone was wooed by has broken so that it will no longer close and the bastard runs fscking hot. I am not lying and am pretty certain I could fry an egg on the bottom of the casing. One thing I will give it is that the battery lasts alot longer than my laptop but mine weighs less and cost about 2k less.
If it's "illegal" for a PRIVATE CITIZEN to write frigging buttons and frames that just LOOK like some corporations' product then maybe what this country needs is a good old fashioned REVOLUTION.
It's not illegal to do that; go ahead and make one for yourself. Just don't distribute it.
-Waldo
I wish I could say Apple is pricing themselves out of the market, no one wants a low cost Mac more than me, but if you use eBay as a capitalist marker of machine worth, you'll have a hell of a time finding a cheap Mac. Seriously, I look for it every couple of days.
The hardware is a little pricey, but have you priced Windows lately? How about server licenses? Novell Netware licenses? Apple is selling a solution, and trying to make enough money to survive. Thay are surviving, and people use those machines, and aren't willing to part with them for less. It's crazy, but it's true.
And really, if all you want to do is copy what other people have done then you will never be in the lead. The last thing Linux needs is to look like a Mac. It needs its own look. It needs to do its own innovation.
I cross platforms several times / week, and they each have their advantages. Apple has UI, hands down. The only time Windows products seem to come close is when they are Mac ports. Linux comes close in tiny spurts, but it's really shallow. Complaining about not being allowed to copy is the biggest indication of an inability to innovate that I have ever seen.
i use sawmill on one puter, and macos on the other. i can't change the button bindings in macos, so i set up sawmill to use the same bindings and button positions.
... thanks apple!
:)
this works well, and stops me hitting the window menu every time i try to close an app (or worse). they don't have to look identical, just so long as they work the same on the subconcious level we use switches on (what stops you having to think "which is the indicator switch" in your car).
ironically, now that i'm using the (unthemable) macos x, i am confused as all hell again because i'm used to macos 8.6. shite
apple should realise that user interface should be more flexible (and easy to restore, if you want to enforce consistency), and that there are legitimate reasons for using an aqua or macos workalike on a non-mac platform.
what's the best way to report improvements to apple for bugs and the like? i've got a call sheet here
if aqua is good, it'll get copied. sorry, Apple.
that's all there is to say about that...
I get tired of Apple's lawyers telling people what to do. Its the law, so what. There are more important things you know. A legal right is different from a natural right, you know. We're talking ethics here. If I am a painter and you made a painting that looks like my painting, does that mean I get to tell you not to show anyone your painting? Of course not!
But, if I am that same paining and I am copying it a hundred times so that I can sell it and the only way I can make money off of it is by being unique and different; then can I tell you to put your painting off the wall and not give it to anyone?
Yes! Of course they can! Because I am a poor company and spent so much money on my own paintings and if I allow you to paint something similar, I would not make as much money as I could have (also known as "losing money" in business speak) so of course I have this right!
Truth is, there is no ethical reason for taking this project down. It seems that the guy is having problems through his employer...well, that sucks.
So what do I say to do about it? Screw them. Stick the whole thing on freenet and tell people where to get it. Put it on newsgroups and get people to mirror it if they want to risk it.
What we do on our free time is our business and screw the intellectual property laws. They don't have an ethical leg to stand on!
Ok, let's see how fast I can get rid of all my karma....
I don't mean to start a holy war or anything, but after reading the majority of the posts thus far I'm confused. While I agree with most people on here, that Apple has a right to defend its design from being copied, is there a double standard here between Apple and Microsoft? I just can't understand why when Microsoft does something like this it's the "Evil Empire" but when Apple does the same it's defended by the community. Then again, I guess I shouldn't try to understand the mindset of a group of people that post goat sex links and racist jokes more than anything else.
Keep Austin Weird!
Microshaft stole thier implementation of Xerox's "desktop" operating system and ruined thier OS business.
Then a clone maker came along for IBM hardware and ruined the margin on making machines.
Apple has been screwed by others since the day computers became available to the people.
Regardless of my (or your) opinions of thier hardware, software, OSes, and so on, if you were Apple, would you not fight with every single fiber of you being to protect everything you could?
They are not going after people for money... they are simply saying "we made Aqua, at consideralbe expense (and again, I don't care what you think of it... it cost them heaps of money to develop) so please don't give it away to other platforms".
Windows XP, Linux, or whatever does not DESERVE a GUI as nice as Mac OS X. My mom can buy a crappy box with Win XP and be frustraed by it. Having an OS X look alike theme could amke her biased agiant Macs. My mom would have no f*ing clue how to use Linux, so if see ever had to use a machine with Linux installed, and it had an Aqua theme, she might think that So X was hard to use. I *did* buy my mom an iMac, and installed OS X on it. She damn well humps the machine she loves it so much.
So porting one is not only an infrigement of copyright, but just plain wrong as well.
Department of Homeland Security: Removing the rights real patriots fought and died for since 2001
I find it really interesting that a guy who just got in trouble for copying a company's graphics (whatever you believe the merits of that are) is using the sky background image STAIGHT OFF OF TRANSMETA'S OLD WEB SITE.
Is this a quiet way to rebel or is he just stoopid?
http://kered.org
or whatever color it is. they fought and won a court order which says that their distinctive color cannot be used in any other soda brand.
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
Because OSex isn't how you say Mac OS X you should say Mac OS Ten.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
To me if an OS looks good fine but what I'm really intrested in is can it get my work done? True apple has a point they do own the copyright to aqua but if the biggest thing they worry about is it's looks then I'm not too intrested, thanks but no thanks.
Thanks Snoozer
every month as Apple sues some other User or Site for *Gasp* either Talking about or Promoting Apple.
They're all asleep now.
But soon they'll wake up.
Be prepared.
Are they also so stingy about anything resembling the iMac?
Even the new George Foreman(tm) grill (which I use religously) has various iMac-like coloring schemes..
I need my grilled meat!! Apple, dont take that away from me!
humor != flamebait
only outlaws will have themes!
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
Apple is always on the brink of disaster.
:) I'm always surprised to hear people really do believe people buy Macs just because they look cool. That's just icing. And the bit about a "dream to work with," you sure make that sound easy to implement. It's not a one time thing. It's a design philoshopy, one that costs substantial time and money to develop, maintain and enforce. Apple spends a considerable amount on continually evolving the concept of a personal computer. Those 30% margins? A lot of it goes right back into the products.
Apple's the one with $4.2 billion in the bank, who has laid off a total of 50 people since the PC industry downturn, and (with one exception) has profitable every quarter since Q1 1998. Contrast this to all the mass layoffs throughout the industry. There is tremendous value in the company.
PC makers, along with motherboard designers integrate more cutting edge features that ever, and do so with great stability and success
Stability? Which industry are you talking about? Certainly not the one with Gateway, Compaq, VA and HP in it.
Apple has some of the best hardware overall in the industry. The were the first to ship DVD-R, first with built-in wireless antennas, first (and only, as far as I can tell) with gigabit ethernet standard on desktop hardware, and the legacy-free aspect of the iMac certainly drove USB acceptance. Their machines are quite energy efficient, and in some cases, fanless. Their towers are the easiest to manipulate of any manufacturer I've seen. There are weak spots, like the bus speed, but there is plenty to appreciate as well.
Software makers, especially Microsoft, cater to both the newbie while still offering powerful professional features (much like FontSync and ColorSync) all while maintaining tight integration with said PC makers
Tight intergration with PC makers? Is that intergration as in "include Netscape and we'll revoke your license" or as in "this driver keeps giving me error messages?"
Build some cool enclosures that both look nice and are a dream to work with. Boom. No more need for Apple.
It's just that simple, eh?
It should be no surprise that Apple wants to defend one of the very things that differentiates itself from the commodity Wintel PC market.
You're right, it's not. The legal system says Apple has to virgiously defend its ideas at every point along the way, or loses the right to do so later. I don't think Apple's really all that concerned about people buying a machine to run Linux instead of a Mac just because E has an Aqua theme.
But here's something else I'm wondering about -- why are people still creating Aqua themes? Apple has asked repeatedly for people to stop. Why does this continue? Surely theme creators can come up with something new. Why not just respect Apple's wishes? It's not like OpenSSH, where you need replication for compatibility reasons.
You don't even have to look at it from a legal perspective since they haven't actually sued anyone. What if somebody asked you to remove a desktop picture they created from your theme package? Wouldn't you do it? Is this all that different?
- Scott
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
I didn't think so. I'm formally trained in niether psychology nor psychiatry, nor have I met Eric Yang; but I am a member of MENSA and a student of human behavior. I think I know a sociopath [slashdot.org] when I see one.
And DAMN you know how to pound your dick on the table to try and convince everyone you are right!
Being a student of behavior doesn't really make you any more qualified than anyone else to make the observation of if someone is a sociopath or not. And a MENSA membership doesn't qualify you either - which kinda makes me question your wisdom of posting that you are a MENSA member. Plus, anyway - 2% of the world can be a MENSA member. If you would have said you were a IQuadrivium member, I might have been more impressed ;-) (only .1% of the world can qualify for that one. And there's ones with even more stringent restrictions on IQ - of course, there's certain problems with quantifying extremely high IQ's in the first place!)
In other words - please, if you are going to try and use something to prove your point, how about I dunno... use the wonderful ability to hyperlink to relavant information instead of trying to turn this into an "I'm smarter than you" style contest. More people listen when relevant information is presented, while attempting to make people believe you have a bigger dick really doesn't do anything but make people scoff at you, and totally disreguard your statements completely.
What's really IRONIC (damned if I'm not havin' some fun now!) about this is that you've claimed Eric Yang to be a sociopath. However, you've already exhibited at least one sign of a sociopath - excessive boasting. More likely than not based on your MENSA comment, you could also potentially have a second problem that's commonly exhibited: Grandiose sense of self-worth.
So quit callin' people names and flingin' terms when you think the ignorant masses don't really follow what you are saying. You might be surprised - a really large number of us are actually somewhat intellectual ourselves, and do know the definition and meaning of large words.
(Ok, I SWEAR - that's the only time I've ever used the term 'intellectual' attached to a group of people that includes myself. Sheesh.)
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
Personally, I think Apple should sue Microsoft for stealing the rubber ducky and putting it in Windows XP! That's just SO WRONG!!
Apple and Microsoft signed a cross-licensing contract back in 1997. The rubber ducky is covered under this agreement.
- Scott
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Hmm, similar, but not exactly the same. Not even close. Sorry, try again.
BTW, what godaweful plugin do I need to look at the Mac OS screenshot? All I see is a blank square...
...that's gotta be worth something
Nope, sorry, ain't worth shit.
The 11th Armor Cavalry Regiment (US Army) uses that black horse for their shoulder patches (granted it's on a red & white field and not a yellow one).
:).
I guess copyright doesn't apply if you have a Bradley
Not even close? There is nothing on the Windows CE screenshots that remotely reminds me of Aqua. If you're confusing the two looks to the point of calling for a lawsuit, you need glasses.
"Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
In any case, it's not worth worrying about. Aqua looks slick, but there are lots of nice looking themes, many of them more usable than Aqua. Rather than trying to clone Aqua, perhaps it would be better to port more free themes to MacOS X and give it a fresh, non-Apple look.
It is very sad to me that Apple has lost it; yet it is true. It became Just Another Big Corporation, with all the appropriate consequences.
For example, why did Apple limit all the licensing agreements so noone could manufacture a Mac clone? Hell, I'd love to have a Mac at my home, but not for a price that would make my parents broke!
Their attitude to Open-Source is also very unilateral. As long as they need a kernel, a shell, a web server, a telnet server they're cool with it. But the only thing they've returned back is the kernel, which is of very little practical use. I'm sure it's fine by them as long as they've got their revenue.
This post is rude, but that does not make it either off-topic or flamebait. It expresse a course of action which is perfectly admissible, albeit risky as Apple likes lawsuits.
This is not a signature.
Legal basis is 10%, from art, photos, etc in the real world - per a art major working in commercial industry (not me)
Now defining 10% of a software interface... thats a horse of a different, er, color.
Coz I'm using NeXT themes...
:-O
Oh, wait, they could sue them too!
It both fustrates and absolutely amuses me how computers are such a religion (myself included).
.I'm betting on the latter (after which TrollTech would probably release OS X QT and we would have the heart of the desktop anyway). . .
.I'm waiting for the day that they have such a large market share that they create self-induced problems and break stuff so that they seem like "heros" when they come and "save the day". Although "Code Red" was probably not written by them, they did such a good job at saying "we saved the day" after that that I wouldn't put it by them at this point. . .
The ironic thing (and this is the proper use of ironic) is if M$ sued any of the upcoming "Windows clone" companies about "look and feel", the apple faiths would not be yelling about how M$ spent 'so much time and money' on developing the 'look and feel'. . .
This is a tough one from a legal standpoint, but from a marketing standpoint that was pretty stupid of Apple. No GUI-orinted mac person would ever drop a mac because *nix graphics looked like it, however there are MANY *nix users who love to have toys and a bright, shiny desktop that they are told was 'inspired' my a mac would probably make them buy the mac as a new toy (Hell, I know of MANY people who bought OS X just because it has some UNIX in her heart).
If M$ copied aqua, apple would lose a lot, however in the *nix world I feel that they would ony gain.
BTW doesn't M$ own a good chunk of apple? I wonder what they would do if apple started to get a large market share. Usually they either copy the competition and beat them at their own game, or buy controlling stock and make the company choke themselves (like the kid in "Full Metal Jacket"). . .
I'm on the conspiracy theory side about M$. .
This attack on creativity and free speech should be defeated for the priciple alone.
Please explain how Apple protesting plagiarism of Aqua is an attack on creativity.
- Scott
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
The design of aqua stands out from any other computer os... Of couse others want to steal it. But it belongs to apple and deserves to be unless aaple stole it too...
||| I still can't believe Parkay's not butter.
After the Microsoft Windows incedent with MacOS I can see why the legal department of our friends at Apple may wish to protect their look and feel. After all thats all that Apple is really known for-- design. Now the problem comes down to this... they are now entering the world of open source and whenever they begin to make it clear that they are closing a door some programmer will find a clever way to avoid it until Apple either gives up or ends up sewing some poor bastard who will cry Skittle(tm) colored wolf (now avalible in platinum pink) at the EFF until we all hate Apple for trying to do something smart (come on guys don't you want to see *nix take over the universe... we have IBM... we are getting Apple... all we need is Radio Shack and we have the original PC industry) well until next post...
mod me down for redundant see if I care...
Remove *your pants* to send me email.
the apple faiths would not be yelling about how M$ spent 'so much time and money' on developing the 'look and feel'
:)
Mac users certainly wouldn't, but hardcore Windows advocates might.
If M$ copied aqua, apple would lose a lot, however in the *nix world I feel that they would ony gain.
But the law doesn't care about this. It punishes you for playing favorites.
BTW doesn't M$ own a good chunk of apple?
It's very small. They're all non-voting shares.
TrollTech would probably release OS X QT
Already done.
- Scott
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
If I am a painter and you made a painting that looks like my painting, does that mean I get to tell you not to show anyone your painting?
I invite you over to my gallery and show you a painting I created. You then go home and set out to paint something that looks as close to mine as possible, then release it to the public without asking my person. Is that good ethics?
But this doesn't have much to do with what's going on. The main issue is that the law says Apple has to always defened its creations, or never. There is no in between. That's why they have to go after theme makers.
- Scott
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Nice one.
;)
Never heard of that Iquadrivinium site myself. I took a look at it, and it basically looks like scam - sort of like the Skeptics Society
P.S. A 1450 on the old SAT is considered 99.9%? I happen to test well myself, but other 1600's out there are are smart, but they're not THAT smart.
If you look on TV, you'll notice that everything about an Apple computer is easily recognizable. Apple's computer designs are one big marketing ploy, turning the owner him/herself into an advertisement. Much like Abercrombie&Fitch t-shirts.
If you see a PC across the room, you barely notice it. If you see a Mac across a room, you notice. Nothing else looks like an iMac, a G3/G4 tower, an iBook, etc. Apple wants to be visible, and that makes sense.
The same goes for Aqua. Aqua looks like nothing else - and Apple wants to keep it that way. If Aqua themes became popular, then screenshots from Apple computers would not stand out as much - and therefore, Apple would not burn itself into peoples heads nearly as clearly.
They charge for RING TONES now. A DOLLAR for a RING tone. If you make the ring tone on your own - playing a pop song with the 9 different beeps your phone can make via numkeypad, they'll sue you.
That's like banning people from singing in front of their friends.
Because I am a poor company and spent so much money on my own paintings and if I allow you to paint something similar, I would not make as much money as I could have (also known as "losing money" in business speak) so of course I have this right!
No, you do NOT have any such right.
You would make more money if you enslaved your workers or threatened to kill them if they didnt work for free.
You would make more money if you bounced all your rent checks.
You would make more money if you hid bombs in the competitions packages so they're customers would all die and drive the frightened people to use your product instead.
You would make more money if you were able to invent a device which would remove all the oxygen in the air and sell it to people that needed it for a fee.
Nothing gives you the right to do that though.
Matter of fact, you don't even have a right to breath if your in the middle of pool and too tired to swim to the edge.
You big lug, you're just flirting with me because I'm svelte and fleet of post.
That's the same lame excuse that comes up again and again, and it's false. If Apple claims protection under trademark law, yes, they need to enforce their trademark, but they can still license it to whoever they want to. If Apple claims protection under copyright law, they can enforce as selectively as they like without losing their copyright.
Whether Apple actually has rights under either trademark or copyright law to gumdrop-based, colorful interfaces really has never been tested. So far, it's all just hot air and lots of expensive lawyers.
How ironic it is, everyone is focussing on MSFT bashing these days, and Apple, using a BSD-based (i.e. UNIX based) operating system now is often perceived as an ally in our battle against MSFT.
In contrast, it is not Microsoft that was ever opposed in particular by GNU (of course they are/were opposed by GNU just as any closed-source company is, but nothing in particular). It is Apple, because they have always had this "tradition" of militant protection of their look and feel. For many years GNU boycotted Apple because of this and forbade that any GNU software be ported to Apple (might be a reason why Apple chose BSD and not Linux as foudation for OS-X).
At the Justice League of America, Aquaman has decided to sue Apple, Inc for infringement upon his look and feel...
He was quoted as saying, "Apple has touted it's user interface as being fast and sexy. Baby, that's all me..."
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Then they'd get a pretty nasty surprise when they found out that chicken sandwiches aren't copyrightable. The recipe, however, might be protectable as a trade secret, but you would have to prove that A) you had used reasonable means to protect your trade secret and B) Jack in the Box still stole it.
Folks, PLEASE HAVE A BASIC UNDERSTANDING OF IP LAW before acting like you know what you're talking about. This is a copyright issue, plain and simple. If Apple wants to defend the work of its artists, it's damn well able to do that.
I shudder to think of a world in which everybody can just copy anything they like without regard to the rights of the original author. I make a living writing software, and I'm pretty happy that nobody can just appropriate it and sell it as their own.
ZFS: because love is never having to say fsck
I was denied to use this interface unless I used their library.
I don't know exactly what he was denied to use, but it sounds to me like he tried to implement his OWN version of the interface rather than just using the available library, which Apple provides in thier development kit.
So he has to buy the SDK and use the actual Apple library so that Mac OS X (under development for YEARS) doesn't have a bunch of half-assed imitation interfaces lurking around. They've been doing this since the beginning: enforcing a UI standard.
Use the Apple library. It's there. It damn near ensures UI compatibility, and it's probably more flexible than anything you can easily concoct.
I'll back Apple on this one. Knowing how hard they've worked, they're going to make sure that anything you develop for for OS X (or to look like Aqua) is going to use Apple's libs.
What's the problem?
Is he suprised he didn't get paid?
As I understood his comments, he was only pointing it out that Apple is all to happy to take input from the community, but doesn't allow the same community the freedom of artistic expression.
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
I thought Apple lost the lawsuit because MS successfully argued that Apple had stolen the UI from Xerox long before MS could steal it from Apple.
So we get yet another bitch-about-Aqua article, but nothing on Apple's release of OSX 10.1? Hmm. Well, I'm sure there's more important stuff going on, like another press release from whoever owns rights to the Amiga at the moment.
A.
Here: http://kde.themes.org/themes.phtml
:o)
is a download able aqua theme for kde 2.1.
Looks quite nice, but somehow all the light burns in my eyes
--
Karma 50, and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt.
What is everyone's great desire to rip off Apple's look anyway? Make something better if you're the expert.
I chose that quote for the subject, and for a reason. Did you consider the fact that people have looked at Aqua and liked it very much? Apple has a history of making usable UIs, so Aqua may not be an exception.
Yet, quite a few of us are not willing to switch the platform we're currently on. Not to mention buying a completely new set of hardware, should we want to have an Aquaish UI. I think you could call it the freedom of choice. Personally, I think Aqua is a bit too bleak for my taste but I do understand why some folks would want to use it.
As to why ripping off a good design? You pointed out why professional UI design can manage such wonderful results: there are several professionals who get paid to shred the unfinished work to pieces. If they have high enough standards, they won't allow their work to be left unfinished and a half-baked UI to leave the door. Add a good number of designers, working in unison to get results that will withstand such brutal approach and in time, something worthwhile WILL come of all of it.
Such resources are just not available to OS folks. At least, not a good majority. These folks have to rely on user feedback and bug reports. And who do you think writes them? Geek users, not professional usability experts.
So please forgive us for wanting to use our platform of choice, probably with a very attracting UI. Apple has managed to create a UI that draws mimics like a pot of honey would flies. They should be very, very flattered. For all I know, they very well may be - they just have chosen to limit Aqua's availability to only those running their operating system.
You make your own decision whether this is a good or bad choice. I am not competent enough to decide it for someone else.
There is no such thing as good luck. There is only misfortune and its occasional absence.
This is yet another case of giving trademark protection to a distinctive interface. Trademark protection should be limited to the words and symbols used to identify a product. Things which are part of the product itself, like an interface, ought not to be covered by trademark.
I'll go even further and say that the color brown should not be an UPS trademark, and that the curvy bottle should not be a Coca-Cola trademark. Only names and logos (markings, you see) should be covered by trademark.
"In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
Everyone keeps talking about how great Themes are and of course, the power users tends to like them. However, the first time computer user often finds themes confusing, especially if they have a problem with a program or with the OS. Moreover, they tend to cause needless complexity and even affect the stablility of the OS. On a pure marking perspective . . . say how would you know if a particular program can be used on MacOS X without finding the system requirements? Simple. If the screenshots show that the program had the Aqua GUI then you have a reasonable guess that it could work on MacOS X. Themes tend to cause confusion between which program are conpatible for MacOS X and which can be used for other OSs. This may sound like ridiculous reasoning to the "savy: computer user, but then again, savy users have a BRAIN, novice users don't!
Putting law issues aside, I like UI that doesn't distract me of what I'm doing, and aqua and other "shiny buttons" UIs does exactly that. I don't think that's design worth copying.
..that commercial software needs to be put out to pasture. When the heck are companies going to give up and realize that the future belongs to Open Source.
But who says Apple never ripped off MS?
The custom toolbar in IE 5 for Mac was taken and tweaked to be used in the custom finder for OS X!
I think little things like this go both ways.
People think Microsoft is the answer. Microsoft is just the question, "No" is the answer.
So, my Apple party member friends (You know who you are hehe) always tells me that a 500MHz Apple box is roughly the same as any 750 MHz Wintel box, in other words, a factor of about x1.5 extra punch.
Makes little difference when they overload the computers with GUIs that takes x3 extra resources.
And not to offend anyone (I hope), but it is stomachturningly cuddly with all those brightly colored thingummies. Think childrens TV on LSD. And this people wants to copy?
There is a reason there is a way of measuring speed in MacOSX called "bouncemarks". Yuck.
Done venting. Thanks.
Now if Microsoft cloned Aqua then why not just name the themes after XP to get Apple lawyers off your back?
Remember back when MS was first getting in trouble, and Apple had been in trouble? And Microsoft saved their ass with a stock purchase? I believe as part of that deal M$ got rights to some of Apple's intelectual property for a few years time, and that is why the creators of "Aqua" aren't sueing the creators of "Luna," which is the most major influenced-by-aqua work I have seen lately. Since Apple can't sure them, they figure they better get rid of the rest of the potential violators, no matter how minor.
The situation sucks. A KDE scheme isn't going to put Apple out of business. No one uses OSX simply because it looks good. Sure it's nice and all, I like it, but i don't choose it because of it's funny widgets, i choose it for what it can do, and i used to choose MacOS because it was customizable enough to :look and feel" however i set it up, but i'm not so sure anymore...
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
.... But really it is easy to associate this kind of crap that Apple pulled with the kind of censoring of information that the current administration in the white house is doing in regards to the "world biggest story".
See what corporations do? The White house is a corporation, with total corporate sponsorship, Apple is a corporation, with no damn excuse.
It was some themes somebody built. Thats how the net works you guys; folks build themes, folks make X-Files fan sites, and that what they do.
But if you want more about the whitehouse, click the link below to find out some fun info on some of the BS they have been throwing out (with proof!) since that tragic day.
and then trying to stamp out and adjust what people say. Just like Apple in this story.
Apple Computers should just make the hardware (x86), and pre-install windows XP(possibly even port over the entire macOSX to x86).
MOST people would buy the apple box, not only for the cool looks - but for their known build quality.
He didn't just take it, and not from a fighter squadron.
It was the symbol of a famous Italian WW1 fighter pilot (who got killed while on duty, by the way). His mother later donated the logo to Ferrari for use on his cars. Here's the full story..
Linux user since early January 1992.
Why Apple's suck
By: Seventeen year old Slashdot genius fag.
Apples suck. They suck because there is no command line interferance like the one I use in the terminal box in Xtrees86
Apples suck because my friend mike told me they suck. Mike is so cool, he has a tattoo and has sex with a girl.
I used to be an 31337 Windows HaX0r, but then we got rid of aol and my aohell programs didn't work any more. But then Mike showed me astalavista and there were programs that made me a 31337 HaX0r again.
Apples suck!
Then once MaximumPC (the only magazine worth reading except from NextGen) had put Mandrake Linux on the free CD.
I knew installing Linux would make me a HaX0r.
But it was hard, and I could not get the stuff my mom bought with this computer from the gateway store like the printer to work. Mom was mad she lost all the MicroSUCKS Word files she needed and got fired.
Mom is a bitch. I am an 31337 HaXor.
Apples suck because they do anything and nothing works on them and they suck.
So my mom and my sister went out to get a computer for themselves. I have drilled a blowhole in my gateway AMD 700MHz Athlon and installed a 500watt powersupply to drive the 54 fans. I overclocked my "DREAM MACHINE" to 1.9 GHz. It may only run for 18 minutes max, but it fucking RULZ.
ALL OF YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!!!! RIGHT GUYZ??!!
They bought a shitty Imac on sale for $700, IT IS SO GAY!!!!! FAG APPLE SuckyMac is what I call it.
It is a G3 (whatever the fuck those are) 500MHz (heh so 1999)... and it is a piece of shit.
Oh sure my sister says that she uses it in college to "edit digital Video". She is a stupid slut.
My sister will never be 31227 haX0r.
Oh what the fuck is a macromedia flash?
W00t!
And um. Can anyone tell me where I can find some new HaX0r scripts?
... I really did buy a Mac because it looked nice. Not just nice, but Schweeeet. Love me, love my TAM.
Colors can be trademarked. When Madden 64 came out for N64, they were unable to use the exact shades of colors on uniforms in real life. This was b/c they never made an agreement w/ the NFL to license team names, colors, etc. However, they were still able to use actual player names (licensed by the NFLPA) and city names.
Is it a language problem? Much bigger C-based GTK apps, like pan start up much faster than the smallest KDE C++-based app. But, again, pretty much all Windows apps are MFC based, so what did they do to improve speed?
The linker is still the biggest problem with C++ app startup speed under Linux. It's simply never really taken into account (and thus been optimized for) C++, because until relatively recently, there was very little software available for Linux that was written in C++. Now there's both KDE and Mozilla, both major flagship projects, and both suffer quite badly from the inadequacy of the Linux dynamic linker.
It's being worked on. In the last few months some very large bugs have been fixed in the linker which seriously affect app startup speed, and a proper library prelinker is also being worked on too. However, neither of these have yet appeared in an official release of glibc yet, and even when they do, it could take some time for them to filter down to the distros.
That's not to say there aren't some areas that KDE and Mozilla couldn't optimize in their own code, but that is relatively easy and well understood by comparison, and recent releases of both KDE and Mozilla have had some heavy work in these areas.
As for objprelink - well, it's an interesting and useful hack, but that's all it is - a hack. It does offer a significant decrease in app startup time, but nowhere near as much as a proper long-term solution will. There are also some concerns that it may decrease speed in certain areas once the app has started, or that it may introduce some subtle bugs.
One other thing to watch out for regarding app startup speed is the kernel VM system. I have seen KDE app startup speed cut by about 20% by upgrading to Linux 2.4.10, and there may be more to come later as the new VM is tweaked further. This is especially true of machines that have little memory, but it seems also to apply to a certain extent to boxes with lots of memory - the new VM appears to be somewhat faster at allocating pages for a new process.
Microsoft OSes don't suffer too badly these days from linking speed problems, as lots of Windows has been written in C++ for a long time, and thus the dynamic linker had any speed issues associated with C++ ironed out a long time ago. However, they have had their fair share of similar problems in the past - for instance, there was a bad speed issue in Windows 95 with dynamic linking if executables and DLLs did not have their data aligned to 4k boundaries (the size of an MMU page on IA32). Rather than fix the linker, Windows 98 runs a regular scheduled task which searches through all the executables and DLLs on the system and modifies them, aligning them to this 4k boundary. And don't forget Microsoft's other strategy for dealing with app startup time - to load all the required libraries for important apps at boot time so that they're all in-memory and ready-linked. Word doesn't start up nearly so quickly if you remove the Office Startup application from the Startup menu...
According to www.theregister.co.uk, 10.1 is still slow. Can anyone please confirm or deny? Possibly, an unbiased opinion?
Sigged!
> BTW, what godaweful plugin do I need to look
... don't disrespect it. 99.9% of the video you have ever watched on a computer was QuickTime, even the stuff that was turned into RealPlayer or Windows Media Player streams or DVD video discs.)
... couldn't they do better than to also copy the user icons when they copied the feature? Sad. Now the duck has been replaced by big cats in Mac OS X.
> at the Mac OS screenshot? All I see is a blank
> square.
It's an interactive QuickTime movie, not a still image. You need QuickTime Player for Mac OS or Windows. There are still shots of Aqua on Apple's site as well.
(QuickTime is the Unix of multimedia, man
The top-right of Pocket Windows is just a re-implementation of the Windows taskbar and its System Tray, but put up on the top of the screen, where it reminds one of the Mac's Menubar and System Menus. The menubar in Mac OS X just looks like a prettier, more colorful menubar from previous Mac OS versions (same clock, same system menus).
I agree that Windows XP looks a little too much like Mac OS X, though. I don't mind that, but I thought that naming the Windows XP interface "Luna" was about the weakest and most lame thing I had ever heard. Aqua, introduced in January 2000, and it's ugly step-sister Luna, barfed up in mid-2001. Sad. They are named like they are two products from the same company, which I guess is Microsoft's idea of innovation and competition. I think they should at least pretend to be original. The number of eye-rolls I saw when "Microsoft Luna" was announced!
Microsoft also copied the multiple Login panel from Mac OS 9 for Windows XP, and that would have been fine, too, except that they used the exact same rubber ducky picture as one of the user icons. I mean, there are only a handful of default user icons (the user is meant to drag in their own pictures, at least in the Mac version)
We will all laugh when the x-box 'look and feel' gets the same treatment and M$ start throwing its weight around.
I not an M$ fan but ign.com has got some VERY nice screen shots of the X-BOX gui.
ERR 411[Max number of witty sigs reached]
So a guy who spends his time copying other people's look and feel for different program finds a bug. Arguably a bug that millions of others would be able to find and probably already had reported to Apple. So he thinks Apple should give him rights to all their intellectual property? There is no irony here. If he wants to be paid to find bugs, he should get a job as a tester.
Aqua is pretty, I'll give them that. But it doesn't wear well. It's too slick for me. And I'm just looking at screenshots.
Most people in the long run would prefer something simple, like KDE's platinum or GTK thin ice.
I think the problem Apple really had. Was the themes the guy made for various window managers. It's perfectly understandable that Apple won't want others to make an OS that looks exactly like theirs.
That it hits the Mozilla theme seems like an error of Apple legal department. Applications are free to try and match their UI to look like the rest of the OS.
What is this Aqua theme people keep talking about? Define it, please. Is it the name, pixels, colors, sounds, look, feel? Come on... What is it that they've built, and what is it that we may not "copy"?
Unless you have'nt yet understood it, it's not
a theme. Its just same thing as what enlightment
would have been without a theme.
and the fruits they rode in on.
I have a Mac G3 running Yellow Dog Linux,
I also have the Aqua theme installed on my desktop. I paid for Mac OS X so why should I not be able to use its theme in conjunction with a different operating system ? I forked out for it after all !
polyp@tesco.net
That's right - If Apple wants to, it can license it's Aqua theme to someone else.
BUT that wouldn't permit someone else to license it under some other form such as the GPL. And that's the problem.
And this is why he was shutdown. Just read the FAQ on that page and you will see that he had a blue apple in his theme. I don't think this is look and feel at all. It's because he used the freakin LOGO is why he had his themes shutdown. In fact, I believe you can still get the Aqua like look in enlightenment and the like from Themes.org, just not the Apple logos.
Look and feel is ok, just don't use the TRADEMARKED logo.
Gorkman
Right! But this case is fundamentally different. It isn't as if you're making a simple copyright violation. This is the case where someone is cloning the work, and then redistributing that work under a new license.
Sorry pal, but making a few copies of a movie for your friends is fundamentally different than this case.
This is just as much about trademark as it is copyright - perhaps even more so. Aqua is just as much a brand identifier as it is a piece of art.
And although yes, Apple can license it to whom they wish, they don't have to. And if Apple doesn't wish to license it, it doesn't permit someone from relicensing it under the GPL or some other license agreement.
This is more a trademark issue than a copyright issue. Aqua is part of Apple's brand. The look and feel show you who they are, period.
And as such, trademarks get diluted if Apple isn't tough with ALL violators.
I know, it looks like a copyright issue on the surface, but it's not.
I was too young to follow the Microsoft vs Apple case when Windows came out but I am wondering: How come Apple can now copyright and defend a "Look and feel" but failed to do so against MS?
To err is human, but to forgive is beyond the scope of the Operating System...
Jobs is the pope and he can bite my arse. My favourite theme is fvwm2. Default.
I'll leave Islam out of it for now. Feel free to contribute.
:wq
Aqua Sucks! Graphics suck! They distract me! I am a jackass!
Only green or amber monitors are good! I love linux more then you do!
*bsd is dead because I just learnt linux! And Aqua sucks because I am DISTRACTED BY THE FUCKING BUTTONS!!!
What's Display PDF?!?! Display Postscript sucked! I have no idea what I am talking about! But some asshole wrote a post once that said it was bad and he was totally a leet linux user so I am agreeing!!!!
I AM DISTRACTED BY BUTTONS!!! GRAPHICS IMPEED MY ABILITIES!!!!
Does any one buy this shit?
I'm working on a cool multimedia tool. Apple
is lame attempting to lock people out of assimulating a decent theme. Well too bad Xerox
can sue thier ass for copying a window environment similar to thier own. This is why once my Multifli code gets out, I'll have a GPL, but I will lock it out of any use on OS/X.
Also Why don't we design a theme that rivals Aqua,
copyleft it, and make it illieagal for them to
assimulate it.
Apples days are numbered anyway. I have a multiplatform environment at home. I've got
a Apple 9600 running LinuxPPC (Firewall/Webserver/
Cable Modem/ NAT/IMAP email server), Apple G3 (Linux SMB server for house, icecast server), Dec Alpha (still trying to port more linux apps to this box), 486DX2 50 (My Linux based Mpeg
gateway for my Auto MPEG Player NE35, this allows me to have ethernet access to my MPEG player), MZ104 embedded controller based root w/wireless ethernet (My own design) And.. my Compaq 7100US
w 1.3GHZ Athlon and 256MB DDR RAM Linux box, everything is supported by the 2.4x kernel, including the DVD ROM and 1394 firewire. This box
is much faster then the Apple G4 that I had on lone. My kernel compile times are less than half the time taken with the G4. Yes the CPU speed is faster on the AMD, And the 7200RPM hard drives
aren't bad either. And.. the GFORCE Nvidia card.
So, go ahead apple. be a scrooge and put all your
eforts into preventing others from using a simular
desktop. What goes around comes around. You take
from the Open Source movement and you don't reciprocate. This is only going to have a negative
effect on you in the future.
Demand compensation for use of sky images!
Sky is a registered trademark of the Microsoft Corporation.
There were two major problems with the Apple v. Microsoft lawsuit.
1. Microsoft managed to worm around with a previous contract
2. Apple screwed up in a big way.
I did a report on it about 6+ years for a contracts class [no, I'm not a lawyer, civil engineering majors have to take a class on contracts]. From the summaries that I read, Microsoft had liscensed some bits from Apple for a previous version of Windows [2.0 ? Might have been 1.0], and when the next version came out, Apple sued them, as they didn't sign a new contract, so Apple would keep getting residuals.
Microsoft claimed [and primarily won], on their claim that the new version of windows was based on the old version of windows, which they had a contract from Apple for.
There were a few other points with specific issues, but Apple made the mistake of claiming that certain 'look and feel' elements were rip-offs of certain applications, and Microsoft pointed out that those items were a function of the Apple Finder, not the individual application, and so, the points didn't hold weight.
There were a few other items, such as Microsoft stating that an outline of an icon is fundamentally different from a shaded icon, window zooming animation was different, etc.
Basically, what this boils down to, to differentiate it from the MS case -- the designs are based on Aqua. They're based directly from Aqua, and at no time was there a contract giving permission for it.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
Firebaal ... I'm sorry, man, but you're really off-base here.
... eBay.com
... don't think of the hardcore gamer, think of the average person who just wants to grab the Sims and play with it without worrying about how to install it (on the Mac, you just drag-and-drop or one-click to install).
Apple computers feature more support for standards than any other system. From the OpenFirmware (IEEE 1275) that boots the system to the PDF window server, every place where a standard component or protocol could be used, it is used. Hardware includes AGP, PCI (4 empty 64-bit slots in every PowerMac), DVI, VGA, ATA, SCSI, USB, FireWire (IEEE 1394), AirPort (802.11b), Gigabit Ethernet, etc. Software includes PDF and PostScript output from any application, WebDAV, UFS, MPEG-1, MPEG-2, DV capture and editing, viewing of every common graphics format, playback of every common audio format, DVD-R and CD-RW data burning, CD to MP3 ripping, DVD video disc authoring, DVD video disc playback, Java2, QuickTime, Apache, Perl, 5.1 surround sound, 32-bit float audio (the first OS to support this pro audio format), MIDI, mLAN, ColorSync, Cocoa (OpenStep), Carbon (support for traditional pc apps like MS Word and Macromedia Dreamweaver), BSD Unix. This is all off the top of my head. Go to apple.com and check it out.
> Pricewatch.com
You might think that there is no Mac software or hardware, but you are wrong. The hardware is most of the same stuff you use on Windows, but on the Mac it is easy to install and you don't need drivers (Apple collects them now and ships them with the OS so stuff just works). Excluding games, the software is 75% the same as Windows (Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Word, Excel, etc) and often comes in the same box, and there are equivalents for the other 25% (Apache instead of IIS, Final Cut Pro instead of EditDV, Java2 instead of C#, etc). For games, you just get the hits (Tony Hawk 2, Alice, Sims, Quake III, etc), and sometimes about six months later, but you usually also get additional features and less bugs. It's fine for a lot of people
> This is why IBM Compatible computers have the
> majorty of the computer market
IBM-compatible computers have the majority of the market because that's what Microsoft runs its operating systems on, and Microsoft does whatever it takes to get a majority of the market. All the things that we hear about now that Bill Gates is a celebrity have been going on since day one. In the DOS days, Microsoft stole code from Stacker, included it in MS-DOS, and put Stacker out of business. By the time the court case was done, all the software in question was obsolete and Stacker stayed out of business. There are a thousand stories like that.
Mozilla is no different and was primarily motivated to go XP because native widgets couldn't do what the CSS specs demanded and that it was next to impossible to produce an decent XP frontend around them. And while this has lead to a few speed bumps on the way, it's turned out to be a good thing. The vast majority of Mozilla is now totally cross-platform and skinnable and most of the time you'd never know you weren't using native widgets.
It is for this reason you'll never see Mozilla use native widgets again. There are some vestiges of native widget support still in CVS but it's so bit rotten it would never work. In fact the only way you'll ever see an Aqua Mozilla is if:
Either option is quite likely to happen at some point. I don't see why Apple would get funny if Mozilla had an "official" aqua like theme just as IE does.
your point being?
Me too! All of these Apple appology posts are just amazing. What this says is that you can't make your computer look like what YOU want it to. I don't want to look like Aqua, but Eric Yang does and did. His buddies might like that too, but Eric has been forbiden to share the results of his work by a company that is afraid it will loose revenue that way! BOGUS.
Let's take this priciple to it's logical extreem, shall we. Will it become forbiden to have "windows" with an X, a box, and a line on them? Will it become forbiden to make windows slied up into a bar with a title? Where does it end? With 75 year IP half lives, it might become imposible to make your computer look like anything because some squatter bought the IP and might loose revenue. "Look and feel" is not well defined.
If look and feel is all that Apple has got, it does not have much. If this is what they do with what they have, I hope the don't do anything cool in the future.
Bad Apple, bad! Fix this now.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Want some cheese to go with that whine? Didn't this guy steal all the widgets from Omniweb?
How much helping of writing a library did you do? Bug-fixes shouldn't count. I think Apple is great with developers in OS X, short of bringing out Steve Ballmer to chant it. I wouldn't expect Apple to lend a hand with Mozilla, they have not a lot of interest in it.
As for Mozilla with an Aqua UI - it's a great idea - check out http://sourceforge.net/projects/qbati2/
Unless I'm completely wrong (which is entirely possible; I have a cold and it's early) you cannot *copyright* a design or a layout. And even if you did, only a direct copy would be infringing.
You can *trademark* certain symbols, phrases, or whatever that help differentiate your product, but I sincerely doubt that you can trademark an entire look and feel. For instance, if the theme developers used the Apple logo in their themes that would obviously be trademark infringement.
But if they just make green red and amber buttons, and themes that look like Apple themes I think they have some ground to stand on. Pontiac can make their cars look like Ford cars if they want, but they can't put Ford's logo on them. And these themes aren't even being sold.
I'm not saying that Apple is behaving like an evil dictator or anything, only that it's not a black and white case.
"He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."
Personally, I don't understand why this matters so much.
Sure, Aqua is pretty, but does it make anyone more productive? People don't actually believe the color of a button makes one more efficient. Do they?
copyright the themes as GPL too...and when Apple finally gets their own theming engine, sue them with anything that looks familiar.
Im running a site called www.apples.nu and also all the iNuke themes. For the first Apple hasnt contacted me about the webdomain name "yet". And they havnt contacted me about the themes also. Visit and take a look at:
Apples.nu
Not many people know this but if you get Xfree86 installed on an OS X system, you can compile and run your standard GTK/QT apps. One of the nice things about having Aqua themes for GTK et all is that your applications running under OS X will all look the same. Now I guess all those OS X users will be walking advertisements for Enlightenment instead of Apple.
Why can't I moderate something "Wrong" or at least "Grossly Misinformed"?
What it is going on is very simple. You are unilaterally, and retroactively, trying to impose some sort of bargain, agreement or understanding upon Apple. One that that they had no prior notice of, much less agreed to in advance...
You are unilaterally, and retroactively, putting words and motive into Eric's proverbial mouth.
Here's something that DID come out of his mouth. "I did not expect to get paid for fixing cocoa, but I felt bad that I helped Apple to write a interface library."
Can you quote anything that would suggest Eric retroactively imposed a bargain??? I can't.
AND... All he did was point out it was ironic that he did something nice for them, and they in turn piss all over him.
Irony - Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs.
It is IRONIC because most people expect a little common courtesy. Maybe you're not familiar with the concept...
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
Photographer A captures a breath-taking picture of a sunsite behind some buildings. Photographer B sees the picture and thinks that was he would like to take the same picture and after several weeks of waiting was able to get a picture that was almost identical to the original(you would have to compare them side by side to see the differences..)
Did photographer B violate A's copyright.. no it was created independently... Was B inspired by A, yes. does this violate copyright, no.. Same thing with apple, just because you inspire a copy of a work, does not be that it infringes on the copyright of that work.
Looking for any old 8-bit Heathkit/Zenith software/hardware - http://heathkit.garlanger.com
Why should anyone be allowed to steal something Apple owns? They developed the look, they tested it, they optimized the graphics, blah, blah, blah. Now they're trying to use it as another point of difference to other operating systems. More power to 'em.
It's theirs, whether you like Apple computers or not.
By the way, ever wonder why no one tries to copy the Windows interface?
You don't have to sit behind a one-way mirror and watch a user rip the result of the last 3 months of your life to shreds.
That sounds interesting, if you are a lingerie designer.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
okay, the hating something without chekcing if it is compatible is a bit silly. I went to their website and read to see if it was compatible. I asked 3 mac "gurus" (as all assholes that like macs tend to think they are), and I looked all over the website. nothing indicated that it would not work, and the photo they show is a pcmcia card - which would have worked. When you buy the product, it is a pcmcia card on a much larger board. I called them and they told me it wouldn't work.... what's the point of having web purchasing if you need to call to see if it works.
I love how my post got rated down b/c I dislike the product discussed, slashdot is funny that way... then again, you have to realise the ratings don't mean much either.
as for speed differences in '95 - I had a P90 with 32 megs ram running Win95 and it was WAAAAAY faster than my roommate's powermac (not sure of the number, but it was 7000's) - and he even said so - and he is a major mac zealot - he said even then "wait until darwin" - and my pc was far cheaper than his, and the components were too (his ram cost 3 times as much as mine, and that was back when ram was "cheap" if it was $3 a meg). and the funniest thing (not funny when you were using it) was that mac at the time couldn't multitask - so I'd set his e-mail sound to "stairway to heaven" and he couldn't do anything else until it was done playing. so I'd send him a lot of e-mail.
the reason I don't like the keyboard is exactly what I said - I grew up using a pc, so the fact that the mac keyboard is different and thereby non-intuituve, it is annoying as hell to me that I can no longer touch type using it.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
"You might notice that Aqua Mozilla was not updated recently, and the main reason was that Apple contacted my employer in attempt to shut down this project."
Just once I wish one of these idiotic Lawyers would try this bullshit with me. If a representative of a company ever contacted my employer regarding content on my personal website, the lawsuit I filed against that company would be in the news so fast it would make their head spin. The idiot who did it would be fired on the spot, because they would have to to protect themselves from collateral damages. Even if the suit never went to trial or yielded me a dime, the brain surgeon that thought he could intimidate me would get a serious and rapid re-education.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Apple has a really bad taste in their mouth from the last time their "look and feel" was blatantly copied [microsoft.com].
*sigh*
Here we go again...
As far as thievery goes, Steve Jobs has no right to be bitter. To create the very first Macintosh, he and a few companions took a tour of Xerox and copied anything that was decent. Just as Microsoft later copied Apple.
Sheesh. This has been repeated countless times here on Slashdot and the Apple-fans always seem to conveniently forget it and can only see red whenever the term "Microsoft" comes up. (The Bill-Gates-Borg icon doesn't help any.) I'm not saying that what Microsoft did was right, it was very wrong, but they stole no less than Apple did to get their (kick)start. And perhaps they have changed over time while M$ has not, but the constant pattern of malicious attacks such as this one keeps leading me back to the same conclusion: Apple is still full of worms.
I won't financially support any software company that throws lawyers left and right whenever it can.
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
ironic
...
2: characterized by often poignant difference or incongruity between what is expected and what actually is; "madness, an ironic fate for such a clear thinker"; "it was ironical that the well-planned scheme failed so completely" [syn: ironical]
Source: U.S. Gazetteer, brought to me me Omni Dictonary on OS X.
It's sad, but ever since Steve Jobs came back Apple has been cold and insensative to it's customers... It is part of the reason why I switched to Linux..
Let's see, they use Xerox's GUI and BSD's code. They're the masters at this (cloning, copying, whatever you call it) game and they want no competition, capice?
Artistic freedom would be inventing your own theme that was as creative and unique as Aqua, not implimenting a copy of someone else's creative content on another system.
People have always had their 'opinions' on what should be called 'art'.
When Van Gogh and the other impressionists started painting, the cultural-elite stated that since it didn't involve months and months of work, it realy wasn't art at all.
And now you are stating that since it imitades something that already exists, it isn't art ??
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
This seems like the least outrageous example of corporatism ever discussed on Slashdot. We're talking about a Bay Area technology company founded and run by a bearded vegan asking a "free software" Linux user not to distribute his clone of the public face of a nascent product that is perhaps the most mainstream open source project ever.
How diabolical.
No wonder nobody fully believes the truth about Microsoft when free software people also see Apple as the enemy. Trying to pretend like Apple and Microsoft are even playing in the same league of evil is a joke. Like the subject line implies, Apple is not even as evil as Adobe. Give me a break.
What this guy should do is make a distinctive skin of his own and give it over to his favorite distro so they can make it their default, and give Mandrake Linux or whatever a face that says "Mandrake Linux". Ask yourself for a second whether Apple might have a good tactic for introducing new technology even to Windows users.
What has been bugging me more lately is the misuse of the word "literally". Even newscasters are using it to mean "Virtually".
The city is being overrun by a herd of Lucy Liu's.
Copyrights only apply to a specific instance & medium of a work.
Trademarks apply to a specific design, logo, or name.
I think BlackBox has the right idea, efficiency. And they've done a fair job of giving it the ability to 'look good' at the same time.
Maybe it's that Aqua and OSX come across as bloatware to me. I get fed up with programmers/developers that program in such a way that (to me) says, "I'm writing for a G4 800, and my software is the only thing that will be running". Hello
Efficiency and organization
I say to Apple's way of UI design, "STOP WASTING MY MOTHER-FUCKING TIME!" -- Al Pacino as Vincent Hanna in "Heat"
~LoudMusic
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
It's just because he got so *dangerously* CLOSE to actually making an integrated competetive look and feel to Aqua. He was too good (all though there were still lots of errors!) Anytime anything starts to get popular and a company has a commercial interest that might be upset, they do what they can to rid of the disruptiveness. Apple thinks it has the monopoly on alternative GUIs. Now that X is starting to look danm nifty, with Apples widgets, they decided to do another crackdown.
--- Delta0.. makes no difference.
Much better example, thank you.
So, you've got photographer B deliberately imitating photographer A's work as closely as possible, yet he didn't actually *copy* photographer A's photograph. Still guilty.
A similar example would be if author B really liked author A's work, so he produced an identical story. Same plot, same characters, same pretty damned near everything save for some slight wording differences. This is a pretty clear case of copyright violation, even though the copy wasn't exactly the same.
In both cases, artist A did the work, and artist B (one way or another) copied it and thereby profited from it. Copyright law exists to prevent other people from profiting off of your work without your permission.
IANAL, but I'm pretty confident that that's how a judge would rule in these two cases.
ZFS: because love is never having to say fsck
Actual humor! And on Slashdot even!!
Is Armageddon near? Run for the hills!
(I've never understood what 'the hills' are going to do for you if all existence is really coming to an end... )
I went to Apple [Microsoft] to test [vb something] cocoa for [Windows] Mac OS X 10.1, and found a drag and drop problem with [some control] NSPopUpButtonCell. They didn't even pay me for my effort, yet they try to shut down my project. Isn't that ironic?
No, what's ironic is that "smart" people actually fall for this appler user as rebel crock, and are then shocked when it turns out they've been lied to by a big corporation run by a control freak.
I'm afraid I don't see the similarity. The bars aren't colored to create the illusion of a curve, they have the same left-right gradient they've had since 98...
Linux: Copying other operating systems since 1992.
Jesus. The entire industry has become a bunch of bawl-babies. Apple's crying because someone has taken their blue-lozenge looks, and other people are crying because Apple has started getting a little rougher.
Okay, these are all just my opinions, but:
1: I don't believe Apple really has any say over the blue-lozenge widgets, as long as we don't just cuttenpaste an Aqua screenshot. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know the laws; I'm speaking from an ethical standpoint.
2: Apple has a *right* to scream if anyone uses their logo, just like the Linux crowd has a right to scream if someone starts using Tux in a non-Linux context.
3: With something like "art," shouldn't we respect Apple's wishes? It's only polite. If someone in the Free Software crowd got upset about someone copying them (not their code, but their art), wouldn't we respect them?
Oh. Maybe not.
4: The shape and color of a widget set do *not* make up the interface!!!!! Aqua is *not* just clear blue freakin' buttons!!!!!
Anyway, just my opinion. I think this is a sign that we don't have enough important things to do-- (and I paraphrase): "The battle was so fierce because the cause was so trivial." Or something like that.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
My wife came back from shopping today with a tiny version of WC seat for our son. You know, that stuff you put on a normal WC seat, so that the little boy doesn't fall in. :-)
I turned it around, and to my surprise read "protected by copyright and patent rights" or something like that. Go figure?! I REALLY wonder what's left to "inovate" on a piece of plastic meant to sit on it and shit???
Want another example? Well, I went to visit my oncle, and he showed me some wonder-medicine advertisement, which boldly stated: "This is a medicament which has been used in india for thousands of years" first, followed by US patent nr... Cool, hein?
Something is really badly wrong with both patent and copyright system...
Now, to the question "and how does this reflect to allpe aqua themes"? Well, I could agree that Apple put a lot of $$ in this design, and I could imagine that some aspects of "Aqua" interface could be protectable by copyright. I'm even displeased by the fact that someone calls his theme "Aqua", though I don't really think such words should be copyrightable....
However, IMHO the idea of owning the copyright on every GUI featuring translucent buttons is just as rediculous as patenting something which has been used for 2000 years, or a toilet seat, and should not be tolerated by the system.
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I can't think of a major company with a more hypocritical ad campaign. "Think Litigacious" would be more apt. I used to be a pretty strong Apple supporter, but those days are gone.
They'd love to hear from you.
The lameness filter is killing me. The lameness filter is killing me. Hopefully this is enough comment for it.
Lies about crimes
Remember about 15 years ago folks, when a little company designed an OS that copied the Mac interface? You know it well, 75% of the gripes issued on Slashdot are in regards to it... Windows...
Remember when Apple took Microsoft to court over it? They were hosed, big time... And judging from their current degree of veracity in the courts, I'd say they learned from their experiences... I imagine when XP starts getting around and people start issuing themes that resemble Aqua for that, then we'll see a new onslaught of lawsuits against the creators *and* MS...
Don't like it? Create a GUI that is completely unique, make it such that it can be patented, then charge both software makers a mint to incorporate it into their OS... On the flip side, make it open source for nonprofit OS's and/or theme makers, but put in a stipulation that when the GUI is incorporated directly into the OS with the purpose of profit...
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
The claim was that Apple is required by law to defend their IP or lose it, and that claim is bogus. Apple goes after the little guys because they want to go after the little guys, not because they have to.
I sure hope not... even if I used his photographs to determine how to best frame my photograph, and especially if I didn't.
Looking for any old 8-bit Heathkit/Zenith software/hardware - http://heathkit.garlanger.com
I never wanted an Aqua theme for Windows or Linux until I was told I couldn't have one. Now I went and grabbed a couple just to make sure they stick around... and I'll distribute them as far and wide as possible, even though I won't bother to use them myself.
However, I think Apple is being ridiculous if they think people would resort to buying a Mac just because they couldn't get an Aqua-like skin for their PC desktop environment -- that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
That it hits the Mozilla theme seems like an error of Apple legal department. Applications are free to try and match their UI to look like the rest of the OS.
Actually, Apple has had the position that it isn't legal to copy or simulate an Apple designed look and feel without permission, especially not on other OSs. This fits right in with their stance on the Mozilla Aqua-ish theme(s), which not only are poor simulations of Aqua, but can be used on other operating systems.
Such efforts can have a negative impact upon Apple - some may associate the software, even the OS it is running on, directly with Apple. Indeed, sometimes I wonder if people here who make wildly inaccurate claims about Aqua aren't basing them upon poor simulations of Aqua in their favorite "themable" applications and OSs.)
Perhaps in the minority, but I agree and sympathize with Apple's position. I'm no lawyer so I can't comment on the legality of it, but while Microsoft can rely upon having a stranglehold on the market, Apple must rely upon its designs.
--- What?
Darwin is an open source operating system. OS X uses darwin, but OS X itself is not open source.
Is Apple to desperate about it's operating system that considers aqua theme such an advantage for it's 14 users?
Jack was first-to-market with a chicken sandwich, back in the'80s. Pretty much defined the genre. So the suit could get complicated...
Phil
Jack #32 '83-'84
Until Linux folks understand basic principles of GUI design and are willing to accept widget layouts based on principles of cognitive psychology and not on "because it looks cool" or "Windows does it", we are all far better off with linux looking plain butt ugly. I have gotten really, really sick of many developers in both KDE and GNOME being only concerned with aesthetics and making the ultimate critera for good GUI design being "it looks perty". If I had a dollar for every absolutely beautiful set of themed widget laid out in the most confusing and usuable manner possible, I could hire both desktop environments teams of competant HCI professionals. It might be far better that potential linux converts won't have aesthetically pleasing themes that might suck them into a world software with even less usability than Windows. Maybe a lack of attractive themes would force the linux desktop environments to focus on areas of the GUI that really count in a user getting their work done. A macintosh from 10 years ago is still more usable than tonights build of GNOME or KDE. And it's far, far less pretty. Themes? Prettiness? A really GUI programmer craves these things not.
The reason they ask theme makers to take down Aqua clones is very simple: they cannot play favorites. If they don't vigorously defened their rights and brand image, they lose them.
Under the Lanham Act and Dilution Act, a trademark owner also has the option of settling by just licensing the trademark to the defendant, without any ill effect on the trademark's strength.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Apple is considered in the list at #14. If you wanna deny facts feel free. I was not knocking Apple's proftiability merely the parents claim that they were one of the TOP PC companies in the world. Now as to Apples Opens Source commitments I can see by the news they are once again suing someone for infringing on that opens source product.
can we think of anything nicer to say than "they don't have a brain" ?? I mean really, think about it, do you mean that EVERYONE that can't comprehend themeing or the finer point of O.S. diffs & subleties truly is not capable of it or just plain stupid? Cmon man, ignorant, maybe, but not dumb. You probably don't know much about women's clothing/lingerie but if I claim that you are stupid because of the lack of knowledge (or interest I'm certain) on your part, does that mean you are most definitely, without a doubt, brainless? Oh yeah, in short, STFU
If the latest batch of Americans is too dumb to even be able to spell capitalism or jealousy, I have a feeling that they will be overtaken rather quickly. ;-)
(QuickTime is the Unix of multimedia, man ... don't disrespect it. 99.9% of the video you have ever watched on a computer was QuickTime, even the stuff that was turned into RealPlayer or Windows Media Player streams or DVD video discs.)
:) (or at least not very well...you can get plugger and such for NS4, but that doesn't play everything)
But...QuickTime doesn't run in Unix
Yes! That guy!
"Because it was driving the platform into the ground. The Mac, as a platform, is in much better shape today then when the cloner makers were around."
:)
So, are you saying that PC as a platform would be in much better shape if IBM never did allow people to make clones?
No, I'm saying "The Mac, as a platform, is in much better shape today then when the cloner makers were around." Part of the differentiation of the Mac from x86 platform is that the hardware and software are standardized and integrated. This delivers a different type of experience, it provides an alternative. The clones theatened some of that core value of the Mac.
Futhermore, the Mac cloner makers were completely clueless when it came to marketing their wares. They didn't try to open up new markets for the platform. They only advertised in Mac magazines, and the message was very fragemented.
People have this idea that if Apple allowed anyone to license Mac OS, then the platform would just take off, but nobody every really provides details other than "it worked for IBM." IBM and Apple are totally different types of companies.
Apple platform ( not company) is where it is ( scraping for measly few percent of the market) because of their stupid policies which result in overpriced and purely hype (coolness) driven systems.
Do you really think that's why people buy Macs? Just because they're "cool?" You should go to a Macworld Expo sometime.
A lot of people buy Macs because they have higher expectations of software design, and are willing to pay a little more for the better experience an integrated hardware/software platform provides. You don't have to agree with this, but you should recognize that the allure doesn't revolve around translucent plastics. The unique designs have certainly attracted attention, though, bringing new users to the platform. But, if the overall experience is not as important to you as the best specs for the lowest cose, then you probably don't want a Mac.
And that "measly few percent of the market" accounts for about $6-8 billion in income anually.
I looked at buying one of recent Macs for my son and, hell, they are simply not offering anything unique above your average PC while costing almost twice as much.
Twice as much? I'm sorry, they just aren't that expensive. You can find a bare bones, no-name 800MHz PC for half the price of a 867MHz G4, but that does not mean they are at all comparable.
It simply doesn't make sense to buy Mac, unless you want to be different just for the sake of being different.
It's intersting you would see it that way, and perhaps that is true for your purposes. However, plenty of other people want them because they:
[1] want to spend less time diddling with hardware/software conflicts
[2] want well-designed application software
[3] want a nice GUI on top of a unix-like core
[4] want great desktop video support
[5] want world-class development tools
[6] need cost effective professional video support
[7] need professional publishing tools
[8] want a better overall computing experience
...some just off the top of my head. A lot of this value might be missed if you only played with a Mac for thirty seconds. You definitely are missing out if you haven't tried Mac OS X 10.1 yet.
- Scott
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
If Apple weren't so irrelevant their litigious bullying would make MS look like good guys. The funniest thing about it all is that Job's army of fanatical whorshipers think of themselves and their hero as "rebels" and the last bastion against the borg! Please!
Oh, and OSX is slow. Check out Linus Torvald's autobiography "Just For Fun" for a good trashing of Jobs and the Mach OS X kernel.
hehe...a lot of spelling errors (you sound VERY young) and false authority (ooh..techsupp too eh? I worked for Gateway and Mindspring before moving UP from techweenie to a datacenter job)...you just make it tougher to accept your arguments with immature bravado and hasty generalizations. Oh yeah, when my cable modem goes down, I STILL have to call techsupp and jump through hoops to get them to come out and check my lines, etc....before they replace the modem (went through 2 in the first 6 months...haven't gone through another in 2 years) so does that mean because I had to call support that I'm stupid as well? You sir, are inexperienced, and someday you'll look back on your 10 years in the same job and wonder how ANYONE as smart as YOU could still be there....sheesh.
From MacNN.com:
Apple has apparently worked things out with Eric Yang, whom we earlier today reported was prevented from developing an Aqua front-end for Mozilla and Netscape: "What Apple objected to was not Aquafying Mozilla, but rather the way I was doing it via emulation, thus not giving Mozilla users a pure Aqua experience. Apple is willing to provide information for creating real Aqua experience for Mozilla. Right now, my efforts are focused on an Aqua interface for Tenon's iTools, so work on Mozilla for the moment is in abeyance."
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
is a trademarked color.
That you stink.
You posted stuff that was possibly controversial or someone else's property or something like that, but a bunch of community/share/freeware and whatever personal stuff you would post wouldn't even ATTRACT the ATTENTION of some co's legal team, I imagine.
Then, unexpectedly, the Chester White roots out Mohammed's penis and testicles, hungrily biting them off, gobbling them down with full porcine fury. We bury the newly castrated Mohammed up to his nose in pig manure. Two AIDS infected Bowery whores stuff their used condoms and clotted tampax down Mohammed's throat, and crack a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20 over his skull. We then leave him for the hogs to munch on. Mohammed is swine feed, and by tomorrow, he will be swine manure.
Everyone, check out my new website at http://www.goatse.cx
I implemented the new "Aqua" theme for PHP-Nuke, so let's see what Apple has to say about that!
Way to rip into the guy! filler filler filler