It is when you have maybe 45 minutes a day to teach it and you have to give timed tests.
Did you know that current tests are absolute garbage and are part of the reason the education system itself is abysmal? Maybe you should get rid of your abysmal tests that don't truly test for anything of note.
Memorization of the addition and multiplication tables is not done just for its own sake; it is done to facilitate later learning.
Pretty strange, because I never truly memorized the table and yet I understand math far better than the other students, and was learning calculus while the others were still on algebra, not bothering to do the useless busywork. Understood. Not just memorized facts.
It is done so that in classes such as algebra the teachers can skip a couple of details and still expect the students to follow along.
It's absolutely ridiculous to say that someone cannot follow along in a fucking algebra class if they don't memorize the results of calculations in a table. I have a feeling you don't really care about understanding at all.
It's done because dealing with big numbers is easier if you already know the answers for small numbers without having to calculate it out every time.
Dealing with big numbers is easier if you make a few simple observations and understand multiplication and addition. Besides that, I bet you're the sort that doesn't believe that humans are tool-using creatures, and everything should be done in one's head. There are a few mathematicians who have trouble doing basic calculations, and yet they understand math far more than most others. Math is about understanding, not speed. But saying otherwise, you are helping to keep our education system abysmal.
It sounds like you have at least the entire table memorized through 9x9.
As surprising as it may sound to you, I actually don't. I have some memorized, and that helps me find out the answers to ones I don't quickly, but that is all. My school went up to 20x20 at the time, but again, I forgot a grand majority of the ones I didn't see often, and forgot some I later started seeing often and then memorized them again naturally.
I have 8*8 memorized because it happened to come up often for me. I have a few other such calculations memorized as well, but definitely not all.
Can you provide an example of your thought process?
They are simple tricks or observations, and one trick is obviously to just memorize the results of various calculations from a table. Some include moving the decimal point depending on what power of 10 you're working with, taking off trailing zeros and adding them back on later, or splitting up the problem into parts and then adding it all up at the end. There are many, and all of them are pretty obvious. I guess you could be even faster if you memorized some results from a table, if you care about that.
I don't claim to be the fastest, or faster than people who have huge tables of results perfectly memorized, but I certainly don't stand around in the grocery store like a retard.
They need to learn basic arithmetic, full stop.
Understanding basic arithmetic is different from rote memorization. There are many ways to go about it that don't involve a table.
If you need a calculator to do 30% off, then I feel sad for our public education system.
Are you talking about me, or people in general? I just said that using a calculator does not take that much time, not that I can't calculate 30% off; I can.
Besides, the public education system is completely abysmal for other reasons. And yes, many people don't *understand* percentages, but not due to the lack of any shitty multiplication table memorization game; it's due to the complete lack of focus on trying to give people intuitive understanding of how and why it all works. They're taught in a way that is basically, "Do this, this, and this, and you'll get the right answer." They won't say that directly, and they'll try to butter it up so they give the appearance that they're not teaching that way, but that is, in reality, what happens.
If everyone spent 2 weeks rote memorizing these allegedly pointless tables when they were 8, we wouldn't have such shenanigans.
They had that when I was in school, and even well before that, and many schools even have it now. Most people just forget things they don't see often, like I did. The people you speak of would be doomed either way, since they probably completely lack the desire to understand things, or don't even realize how many things they don't understand.
Unless you want to take an inordinate amount of time or whip out a calculator. You need to have at least up to 10x10 memorized if you want to do even quick and dirty estimates.
All I can say is, "Wow." I know this isn't true, because I sure as hell don't have most of the table memorized. I have other things memorized, like general patterns and tricks that work for practically any number; I'm not confined by some table, and I can figure things out pretty quickly. I'm not actually against retaining information; just the act of forcing unnecessary rote memorization onto people as some sort of one-size-fits-all 'solution' that will only serve to make them hate a subject and get the wrong idea about what education and understanding are. If someone wants to memorize a fixed-size table of calculations just so they can solve trivial problems slightly more quickly, then fine. But that's their choice.
But I would say that using a calculator really doesn't take that much time, and you definitely don't need to memorize some table to do quick and dirty estimates.
I never made such a statement.
You did, and then you did it again right in that comment. "Yes, you do." Before, you said that you couldn't figure what 30% off is without memorizing some table, as if your ability to do math hinges on whether or not you memorize the results of calculations.
You'll stand there in the grocery store like a retard, but you'll eventually get it done.
I know there are some people who are quite slow at this, and I know there are some people who have an absolutely terrible memory (they can't even remember the damn table anyway). I guarantee that the table isn't the only way to do these trivial problems quickly, if that's what you care about. The importance of the multiplication table is severely overestimated.
But the real problems were as stated, which is that it's immoral to have DRM-infested, locked-down, proprietary devices in a supposedly educational environment. Either use an open device or don't use anything at all. The latter is okay, since the problem with our education system is not technology, but rote memorization, teaching to the test, standardized testing, and the fact that it's designed to be one-size-fits-all, among other things. Proprietary garbage like iPads won't fix that.
I assume you decry the filtering and locking down of computers at all businesses nationwide as well right?
I don't know about him, but I often do. Censorship usually just amounts to blocking things that some puritan moron doesn't like, which is a real problem.
I would be surprised to find someone who *likes* DRM. It's a fact that walled gardens and DRM are bad, and it's just ignorance that causes people to think otherwise. That's not even saying anything about proprietary software, though after the Snowden debacle (and there were many indications that the NSA was doing this before he leaked all that information), there's really no reason that someone should not want to know what software is doing.
Grow up.
You're disagreeing with me, so grow up. Rather than telling other people to "grow up," how about focusing on their actual arguments? That's something you didn't really do to begin with.
Censorship by govt or media outlets or other authorities is never optional.
Once again, you're using "no true Scotsman"-like logic to deny a common usage of a term. It's simply not going to work, no matter how much you don't like how it's used.
But call it whatever you want (an optional filter, censorship, or what have you); having it on by default is garbage, and I noticed you did not respond to the portion where I explained how people would be up in arms if different content were to be targeted, making them hypocrites who just want to 'censor' (filter, or whatever word is pleasing to you) content that they don't like by default.
Censorship by govt or media outlets or other authorities is never optional. Uncle Joe Stalin or Adolf or Pol Pot or King Saud never did ask if you'd prefer it on or off.
No, it wasn't, but that's absolutely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Words can have *multiple* meanings, and can be used in a myriad of different ways. You're describing one possible way to use the word "censorship," but it is not the only way.
I've lived in countries where there is real censorship and harsh penalties for breaking it (or even just trying to).
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The typical "I've seen worse, so this isn't bad." non sequitur nonsense.
So what do the hipster activists scream about?
Useless buzzword.
Also, it's 100% possible to concentrate on multiple issues. And I do consider it an issue when governments try to get ISPs to censor certain content that they don't like by default, and then use the excuse that it can be turned off to try to silence critics by giving the perception that they are 'whiners.' This would never be accepted for content that is popular to the public, even if you could disable it.
Of course, you ignorant fool; that was the fucking point. People would be pissed if such a thing happened, and yet they're not when something they don't like (e.g. porn) gets blocked by default. They'd be pissed even if it was trivial to disable.
It isn't. Censorship is coercive and non-optional.
Nothing about the definition of censorship requires that it be coercive or non-optional. For instance, there is something called "self-censorship."
On the other hand, all you pseudo-libertarian, unthinking lefties
I don't see where I claimed to be a libertarian or a leftie. Is your brain so diseased that you can't help but buy into the "left vs right" politics game, something that only ignoramuses participate in?
When you get past the faux outrage and disingenuous political posturing of people pretending to be injured or outraged what you actually find is a convenient system that allows anyone who has an ISP account to decide for themselves if their guests/children/employees can access p2p/chatrooms/XXX/gaming etc.
I suggest blocking religious websites by default, and any website which criticizes a certain political party. Would there be outrage then? You bet. But hypocrites don't care if it's stuff they like being blocked by default. It doesn't matter how easy it is to disable the filters; censorship should not be the default.
And that has what to do with anything, exactly? It's not anyone's problem but your own if something you don't like is often talked about or put up on other people's websites.
The entire point is that the same 'logic' can be used to show that the church is bad. Read his post again.
Since when do they have to prove anything? You're guilty unless proven innocent. As far as I know, they don't even have to prove that a single sale was 'lost' in order to be able to sue you.
but if you can't even figure out what 30% off is at the mall, that's pretty pathetic.
I don't see why you're assuming that. You don't need to memorize a huge table of calculations in order to figure out what 30% off is. Are you sure you understand what is being talked about here?
Some memorization is indeed useless, and I agree that I hate it. But that doesn't mean that ALL rote memorization is bad. Addition, subtraction, multiplication are all essential life skills for anyone who ever deals with money - which is everyone.
Your problem is that you think rote memorization is all there is to it; that couldn't be further from the truth.
And as I said elsewhere, "And that's a straw man. It happens every single time one of these discussions show up; someone says that the person criticizing rampant rote memorization is saying that memorization or rote memorization is always bad, even though they say no such thing."
Your average 8 year old can memorize the table to 9 or 12 in a week or two.
And they can also learn about how and why multiplication works, rather than memorizing specific results in a table. Or they can even memorize (Yes, memorize; if that seems odd to you, it's because you've been misinterpreting all my comments.) generalized 'tricks' that allow them to do calculations that fall outside of the multiplication table quickly.
What functional adult in modern society does not need to calculate percentages?
Sadly, I can think of a number who don't and can't. But they're still functional.
But, what's truly slightly amusing is that you think that if you don't have the results of random calculations memorized, you're unable to do math. That's utterly preposterous. I assure you that there are very intelligent mathematicians (a few said as much in other Slashdot articles) that have trouble doing even 'simple' calculations, and yet they're also very functional. They have a deep, intuitive understanding of why the math works, and don't just mindlessly memorize tables so they can know the answer to a calculation more quickly.
I reject the thinking that making a specific effort to memorize the multiplication tables is by any means necessary or even all that helpful, and no, that doesn't mean that someone won't be able to do or understand mathematics; that's just completely insane, and I have no idea how someone could come to such a huge misunderstanding. I don't know where this misunderstanding comes from or how someone could think that memorizing results is the only way to do math or calculate percentages, but it needs to vanish.
I find this odd, as 'left,' 'right,' 'liberal' and 'conservative' are political definitions.
Yes, they exist, but they're so vague that they're almost worthless.
The American system, of course, boils lib and con down to absurd extremes, and assumes an all-or-nothing take; pro choice? you're also pro gun control, etc etc.
That's one of the problems. Rather than focusing on useless labels and making all sorts of assumptions about someone based on how they or others label themselves, why not just do some research to see of the policies they support are overall good to you? Too many people just mindlessly vote for "left," "right," or "center" candidates, even though those labels don't really hold any useful information. Too many people blame the Other Side (usually "left" or "right") for all the world's wrongs. It's just a way to separate people uselessly.
Then you categorize some choices as 'evil.' Can you expound on that a bit?
I said that there are quite a few people who vote for what they personally believe is 'the lesser of two evils.'
So your complaint is that kids are forced to memorize what you later found you had to memorize
You're straw manning me. Nowhere did I say it is *necessary*; I just said that it happened. Plenty of people don't have it memorized at all, and that's fine.
I'm still not seeing the logic.
The logic is that you shouldn't waste people's time by forcing useless rote memorization on people, thereby giving them a flawed view of education that continues for generations.
And do you think my complaints end at multiplication tables? You seem to be saying, "Aha! My misreading of your comments indicates that you think multiplication tables are necessary! Therefore, your rant about rote memorization in general has no merit whatsoever simply because it's supposedly not true about one thing in particular!" Or at least it seems that way. Otherwise, I really can't see why you can't see the logic, since the discussion isn't just about multiplication tables, anyway.
Either way, you need to have your multiplication tables memorized.
No, it's not necessary. To claim that it's necessary is simply absurd and defies all logic.
Slashdot Mirror
Walled gardens are absolutely immoral, and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply ignorant.
It is when you have maybe 45 minutes a day to teach it and you have to give timed tests.
Did you know that current tests are absolute garbage and are part of the reason the education system itself is abysmal? Maybe you should get rid of your abysmal tests that don't truly test for anything of note.
Memorization of the addition and multiplication tables is not done just for its own sake; it is done to facilitate later learning.
Pretty strange, because I never truly memorized the table and yet I understand math far better than the other students, and was learning calculus while the others were still on algebra, not bothering to do the useless busywork. Understood. Not just memorized facts.
It is done so that in classes such as algebra the teachers can skip a couple of details and still expect the students to follow along.
It's absolutely ridiculous to say that someone cannot follow along in a fucking algebra class if they don't memorize the results of calculations in a table. I have a feeling you don't really care about understanding at all.
It's done because dealing with big numbers is easier if you already know the answers for small numbers without having to calculate it out every time.
Dealing with big numbers is easier if you make a few simple observations and understand multiplication and addition. Besides that, I bet you're the sort that doesn't believe that humans are tool-using creatures, and everything should be done in one's head. There are a few mathematicians who have trouble doing basic calculations, and yet they understand math far more than most others. Math is about understanding, not speed. But saying otherwise, you are helping to keep our education system abysmal.
Yes they are, you puritan moron.
Nope. It's an absolute fact that trying to control your users in such a draconian way is bad.
It sounds like you have at least the entire table memorized through 9x9.
As surprising as it may sound to you, I actually don't. I have some memorized, and that helps me find out the answers to ones I don't quickly, but that is all. My school went up to 20x20 at the time, but again, I forgot a grand majority of the ones I didn't see often, and forgot some I later started seeing often and then memorized them again naturally.
you just fuck things up for everybody else
I'm really not seeing how that's true in this case.
So do you have 8*8 memorized or don't you?
I have 8*8 memorized because it happened to come up often for me. I have a few other such calculations memorized as well, but definitely not all.
Can you provide an example of your thought process?
They are simple tricks or observations, and one trick is obviously to just memorize the results of various calculations from a table. Some include moving the decimal point depending on what power of 10 you're working with, taking off trailing zeros and adding them back on later, or splitting up the problem into parts and then adding it all up at the end. There are many, and all of them are pretty obvious. I guess you could be even faster if you memorized some results from a table, if you care about that.
I don't claim to be the fastest, or faster than people who have huge tables of results perfectly memorized, but I certainly don't stand around in the grocery store like a retard.
They need to learn basic arithmetic, full stop.
Understanding basic arithmetic is different from rote memorization. There are many ways to go about it that don't involve a table.
If you need a calculator to do 30% off, then I feel sad for our public education system.
Are you talking about me, or people in general? I just said that using a calculator does not take that much time, not that I can't calculate 30% off; I can.
Besides, the public education system is completely abysmal for other reasons. And yes, many people don't *understand* percentages, but not due to the lack of any shitty multiplication table memorization game; it's due to the complete lack of focus on trying to give people intuitive understanding of how and why it all works. They're taught in a way that is basically, "Do this, this, and this, and you'll get the right answer." They won't say that directly, and they'll try to butter it up so they give the appearance that they're not teaching that way, but that is, in reality, what happens.
If everyone spent 2 weeks rote memorizing these allegedly pointless tables when they were 8, we wouldn't have such shenanigans.
They had that when I was in school, and even well before that, and many schools even have it now. Most people just forget things they don't see often, like I did. The people you speak of would be doomed either way, since they probably completely lack the desire to understand things, or don't even realize how many things they don't understand.
Unless you want to take an inordinate amount of time or whip out a calculator. You need to have at least up to 10x10 memorized if you want to do even quick and dirty estimates.
All I can say is, "Wow." I know this isn't true, because I sure as hell don't have most of the table memorized. I have other things memorized, like general patterns and tricks that work for practically any number; I'm not confined by some table, and I can figure things out pretty quickly. I'm not actually against retaining information; just the act of forcing unnecessary rote memorization onto people as some sort of one-size-fits-all 'solution' that will only serve to make them hate a subject and get the wrong idea about what education and understanding are. If someone wants to memorize a fixed-size table of calculations just so they can solve trivial problems slightly more quickly, then fine. But that's their choice.
But I would say that using a calculator really doesn't take that much time, and you definitely don't need to memorize some table to do quick and dirty estimates.
I never made such a statement.
You did, and then you did it again right in that comment. "Yes, you do." Before, you said that you couldn't figure what 30% off is without memorizing some table, as if your ability to do math hinges on whether or not you memorize the results of calculations.
You'll stand there in the grocery store like a retard, but you'll eventually get it done.
I know there are some people who are quite slow at this, and I know there are some people who have an absolutely terrible memory (they can't even remember the damn table anyway). I guarantee that the table isn't the only way to do these trivial problems quickly, if that's what you care about. The importance of the multiplication table is severely overestimated.
Many of you thinks that TOR is a godsend, that TOR provides you with absolute privacy
Who are these people that think TOR provides absolute privacy?
But the real problems were as stated, which is that it's immoral to have DRM-infested, locked-down, proprietary devices in a supposedly educational environment. Either use an open device or don't use anything at all. The latter is okay, since the problem with our education system is not technology, but rote memorization, teaching to the test, standardized testing, and the fact that it's designed to be one-size-fits-all, among other things. Proprietary garbage like iPads won't fix that.
I assume you decry the filtering and locking down of computers at all businesses nationwide as well right?
I don't know about him, but I often do. Censorship usually just amounts to blocking things that some puritan moron doesn't like, which is a real problem.
I would be surprised to find someone who *likes* DRM. It's a fact that walled gardens and DRM are bad, and it's just ignorance that causes people to think otherwise. That's not even saying anything about proprietary software, though after the Snowden debacle (and there were many indications that the NSA was doing this before he leaked all that information), there's really no reason that someone should not want to know what software is doing.
Grow up.
You're disagreeing with me, so grow up. Rather than telling other people to "grow up," how about focusing on their actual arguments? That's something you didn't really do to begin with.
Censorship by govt or media outlets or other authorities is never optional.
Once again, you're using "no true Scotsman"-like logic to deny a common usage of a term. It's simply not going to work, no matter how much you don't like how it's used.
But call it whatever you want (an optional filter, censorship, or what have you); having it on by default is garbage, and I noticed you did not respond to the portion where I explained how people would be up in arms if different content were to be targeted, making them hypocrites who just want to 'censor' (filter, or whatever word is pleasing to you) content that they don't like by default.
Censorship by govt or media outlets or other authorities is never optional. Uncle Joe Stalin or Adolf or Pol Pot or King Saud never did ask if you'd prefer it on or off.
No, it wasn't, but that's absolutely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Words can have *multiple* meanings, and can be used in a myriad of different ways. You're describing one possible way to use the word "censorship," but it is not the only way.
I've lived in countries where there is real censorship and harsh penalties for breaking it (or even just trying to).
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The typical "I've seen worse, so this isn't bad." non sequitur nonsense.
So what do the hipster activists scream about?
Useless buzzword.
Also, it's 100% possible to concentrate on multiple issues. And I do consider it an issue when governments try to get ISPs to censor certain content that they don't like by default, and then use the excuse that it can be turned off to try to silence critics by giving the perception that they are 'whiners.' This would never be accepted for content that is popular to the public, even if you could disable it.
In most societies, marriage is a way of holding men responsible
In other words, sexist garbage. Marriage is nothing more than a title; it doesn't make a relationship inherently meaningful or good.
But this isn't happening. You just invented it.
Of course, you ignorant fool; that was the fucking point. People would be pissed if such a thing happened, and yet they're not when something they don't like (e.g. porn) gets blocked by default. They'd be pissed even if it was trivial to disable.
It isn't. Censorship is coercive and non-optional.
Nothing about the definition of censorship requires that it be coercive or non-optional. For instance, there is something called "self-censorship."
On the other hand, all you pseudo-libertarian, unthinking lefties
I don't see where I claimed to be a libertarian or a leftie. Is your brain so diseased that you can't help but buy into the "left vs right" politics game, something that only ignoramuses participate in?
from the genuinely objectionable through it's a question of taste to the innocuous.
What is and is not "objectionable" (or "innocuous," really) is *always* a question of taste.
When you get past the faux outrage and disingenuous political posturing of people pretending to be injured or outraged what you actually find is a convenient system that allows anyone who has an ISP account to decide for themselves if their guests/children/employees can access p2p/chatrooms/XXX/gaming etc.
I suggest blocking religious websites by default, and any website which criticizes a certain political party. Would there be outrage then? You bet. But hypocrites don't care if it's stuff they like being blocked by default. It doesn't matter how easy it is to disable the filters; censorship should not be the default.
And that has what to do with anything, exactly? It's not anyone's problem but your own if something you don't like is often talked about or put up on other people's websites.
The entire point is that the same 'logic' can be used to show that the church is bad. Read his post again.
His post implies that porn and gore are not innocuous. They, in fact, are.
Reminds me of how an entire race became brainwashed that you must get married in order to have a meaningful relationship.
I think this would be difficult to prove.
Since when do they have to prove anything? You're guilty unless proven innocent. As far as I know, they don't even have to prove that a single sale was 'lost' in order to be able to sue you.
but if you can't even figure out what 30% off is at the mall, that's pretty pathetic.
I don't see why you're assuming that. You don't need to memorize a huge table of calculations in order to figure out what 30% off is. Are you sure you understand what is being talked about here?
Some memorization is indeed useless, and I agree that I hate it. But that doesn't mean that ALL rote memorization is bad. Addition, subtraction, multiplication are all essential life skills for anyone who ever deals with money - which is everyone.
Your problem is that you think rote memorization is all there is to it; that couldn't be further from the truth.
And as I said elsewhere, "And that's a straw man. It happens every single time one of these discussions show up; someone says that the person criticizing rampant rote memorization is saying that memorization or rote memorization is always bad, even though they say no such thing."
Your average 8 year old can memorize the table to 9 or 12 in a week or two.
And they can also learn about how and why multiplication works, rather than memorizing specific results in a table. Or they can even memorize (Yes, memorize; if that seems odd to you, it's because you've been misinterpreting all my comments.) generalized 'tricks' that allow them to do calculations that fall outside of the multiplication table quickly.
What functional adult in modern society does not need to calculate percentages?
Sadly, I can think of a number who don't and can't. But they're still functional.
But, what's truly slightly amusing is that you think that if you don't have the results of random calculations memorized, you're unable to do math. That's utterly preposterous. I assure you that there are very intelligent mathematicians (a few said as much in other Slashdot articles) that have trouble doing even 'simple' calculations, and yet they're also very functional. They have a deep, intuitive understanding of why the math works, and don't just mindlessly memorize tables so they can know the answer to a calculation more quickly.
I reject the thinking that making a specific effort to memorize the multiplication tables is by any means necessary or even all that helpful, and no, that doesn't mean that someone won't be able to do or understand mathematics; that's just completely insane, and I have no idea how someone could come to such a huge misunderstanding. I don't know where this misunderstanding comes from or how someone could think that memorizing results is the only way to do math or calculate percentages, but it needs to vanish.
I find this odd, as 'left,' 'right,' 'liberal' and 'conservative' are political definitions.
Yes, they exist, but they're so vague that they're almost worthless.
The American system, of course, boils lib and con down to absurd extremes, and assumes an all-or-nothing take; pro choice? you're also pro gun control, etc etc.
That's one of the problems. Rather than focusing on useless labels and making all sorts of assumptions about someone based on how they or others label themselves, why not just do some research to see of the policies they support are overall good to you? Too many people just mindlessly vote for "left," "right," or "center" candidates, even though those labels don't really hold any useful information. Too many people blame the Other Side (usually "left" or "right") for all the world's wrongs. It's just a way to separate people uselessly.
Then you categorize some choices as 'evil.' Can you expound on that a bit?
I said that there are quite a few people who vote for what they personally believe is 'the lesser of two evils.'
No.
So your complaint is that kids are forced to memorize what you later found you had to memorize
You're straw manning me. Nowhere did I say it is *necessary*; I just said that it happened. Plenty of people don't have it memorized at all, and that's fine.
I'm still not seeing the logic.
The logic is that you shouldn't waste people's time by forcing useless rote memorization on people, thereby giving them a flawed view of education that continues for generations.
And do you think my complaints end at multiplication tables? You seem to be saying, "Aha! My misreading of your comments indicates that you think multiplication tables are necessary! Therefore, your rant about rote memorization in general has no merit whatsoever simply because it's supposedly not true about one thing in particular!" Or at least it seems that way. Otherwise, I really can't see why you can't see the logic, since the discussion isn't just about multiplication tables, anyway.
Either way, you need to have your multiplication tables memorized.
No, it's not necessary. To claim that it's necessary is simply absurd and defies all logic.