How One School District Handled Rolling Out 20,000 iPads

First time accepted submitter Gamoid writes This past school year, the Coachella Valley Unified School District gave out iPads to every single student. The good news is that kids love them, and only 6 of them got stolen or went missing. The bad news is, these iPads are sucking so much bandwidth that it's keeping neighboring school districts from getting online. Here's why the CVUSD is considering becoming its own ISP.

Comments

Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[NotDrWho]

You would have gotten the same results giving them each their own smartphone or computer.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Anonymous Coward]

Would have provided more benefit to provide them textbooks not influenced from Texas educational cult and a updated computer lab. I love technology but this is a complete waste of money. How about we raise teacher wages and bring in some that actually give a crap? How about we spend this money on educational campaigns so that parents make education a priority in their homes?

Giving kids something to play Angry Birds / crappy facebook games isn't going to improve grades.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Noah Haders]

dude, your total bs. i learned in school that linux is for nerds and virgins. MS gave us all free copies of office to use from home.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Anonymous Coward]

Teachers already make enough.
It's the districts wasting money on useless things that gets us stuck
  "According to the Sacramento Bee, the average teacher salary in 2011 was $67,871. Districts with the highest average teacher salaries in California are located near Santa Barbara, San Francisco and Los Angeles."-Wikipedia
Some quick googling seems to indicate that Coachella teachers, on average, make somewhere around $43K/year.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Anonymous Coward]

The best education comes from the internet. It's a great idea, providing that kind of convenient painless access to whatever interest the students have. Modern education doesn't work well because it's not based on personal interest.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[UnknownSoldier]

> "According to the Sacramento Bee, the average teacher salary in 2011 was $67,871.

How the hell is that "enough" when CEO & entertainers -- the most useless people in society -- make millions, yet the most important people in society -- teachers barely make a decent salary??

Re: Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Anonymous Coward]

The most important people in society are parents. Who spend lots of money to be around their kids.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[dyslexicbunny]

I would contend that it depends on the subject. I'd seriously consider teaching math or science but given that my friend is making $42,000 with a masters in Industrial Engineering to teach stats and CS, why bother? I can make twice that or more in industry when I finish my doctorate. I'd bet if you were offering $70,000 to math and science teachers, you'd get plenty of talented folks.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[gwstuff]

While your point is valid, unfortunately, it is not amenable to the capitalist way of thinking in which value is determined by demand and supply, rather than based on the social good brought about. So unless teachers refuse to pay at current wage rates en mass, the system isn't going to give them raises.

If so, then the only way to make that happen is to appeal to the better judgement of CEOs and entertainers and ask them to write a check every year to the institution that helped them get where they are.

Fortunately, it's going to be easy because CEOs an entertainers are modest, reasonable people who will admit the role teachers and schools played in their success, rather than taking a conceited stand like "I'm a self-made man/woman."

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[MisterToad]

The rich people, the people in charge, don't send their children to public schools.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[narcc]

It's a matter of perspective. For some people, money is the last factor considered.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[schnell]

yet the most important people in society -- teachers barely make a decent salary??

I went to public school and had some great teachers who were worth their weight in gold. I also had other teachers who weren't worth a nickel and did a great amount of harm to their students.

If teachers' unions ever agree to let teachers be paid based on how good they are - rather than just by seniority - you might actually see more attractive salaries for good teachers. You might also see more bright people interested in taking up the profession if they knew they could make a better living doing so.

With that being said, my only experience in this is with US public schools and their teachers' unions. I'm curious if anyone else knows of examples where teachers are paid purely on merit and the effect (or lack thereof) it has had on educational outcomes.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[hodet]

Who modded this troll? The Ipad is a consumption device. The last thing kids need in an educational environment. Horrible.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[dk20]

It is my (limited) understanding that Teachers in China are not unionized and can be fired fairly easily for poor performance.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Anonymous Coward]

As with many occupations, a performance base renumeration system is impossible to implement fairly for teachers. It's extremely hard to measure how much education, or its quality, a child has received during a term - and even if you could it's even harder to eliminate local socio-economic factors that skew the results.

There aren't many jobs, other than brainless packet-filling tasks, that benefit from performance pay. This is common sense, and all the evidence supports it.

I'm not saying that teachers are paid enough - they aren't - but what I will say is this. Teachers are not the bad guys, yet every time this kind of discussion comes up, here or elsewhere, the notion that teachers are - give or take - a bunch of lazy useless fuckwits.

Even your post suggests that teachers are to blame for poor educational outcomes - where again all the evidence shows otherwise. Teachers are trying their best. My parter works in a primary school across town, and sees every day what leads to poor educational outcomes. Kids that aren't sent to school by their parents, kids that get yelled at constantly at home, kids with parents in prison, etc etc etc. This school is filled with hardworking dedicated teachers who are all doing their best.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Anonymous Coward]

A book is a 'consumption device' too - much more so than an i pad. But no-one would argue that they shouldn't be in schools - although arguments like this have been made in the past. And anyway, why wouldn't we teach people how to use these devices?

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Anonymous Coward]

This school is filled with hardworking dedicated teachers who are all doing their best.

Then what's with all the busywork that amounts to "Find the missing side of the triangle using the Pythagorean theorem." and similar? That is not education; that's rote memorization.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[rtb61]

That is a technical lie. If you had provided them with notebooks with hard disk drives, by far the majority of the information they required for the the whole school year could have been pre-installed on the notebook, with only minor update traffic required. Of course tablets lacking significant storage capability require a continuous flow of data, now add in class timing schedules, and the data flow has significant peaks which of course result in inevitable bandwidth problems. So not only poor input interfaces limiting creativity and foolish lock in but huge bandwidth problems.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[master_kaos]

idk, I think farmers are more important than teachers, and generally they even paid less

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[MightyYar]

Two things:
- Teachers (at least around these parts where they are all unionized) have a ridiculously steep slope to their salary curve. They make a pittance in the beginning, and are paid quite handsomely just before retirement. They have no one to blame for their crappy starting salary then their senior teachers - they negotiate this in. I would much rather flatten the curve.
- I'll get massacred for this, but the teachers aren't all that important. The kids in good districts would do fine even with mediocre teachers and the kids in horrid districts are pretty much doomed no matter how good the teachers are. You can see this in action right now. They have this absurd "everyday math" thing happening in the schools, and every parent that I know here in the burbs is re-teaching their kids math when they get home. That is not happening in a household where the single parent works 3 jobs. There is a reason teachers in those districts say things like "if I can get through to just one child..." They have realistic goals and they know that most of the classroom is doomed.

Don't get me wrong, when my kids have a good teacher it is really satisfying and makes the whole parenting thing much easier. But you know what? I don't fall into despair when they get the mediocre ones because my kids will be just fine. You could triple the pay and it wouldn't substantially improve the low-performing districts - there are systemic issues far deeper than the quality of the teachers.

Re: Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[kenh]

At $67K/yr 'average' teachers each earn more than the average US household.

Their income is, by definition, above average.

http://finance.townhall.com/co...

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Joe_Dragon]

and in Asia it's all about the test.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[schnell]

Even your post suggests that teachers are to blame for poor educational outcomes

Teachers are a part of the equation of educational outcomes. Parents and economics, I agree, have far more to do with results. But barring extreme circumstances, you can't do anything about a child's parents. You can far more easily do something about their school and their teacher. And I had teachers growing up who ranged from those fostering my love of learning and enriching my young life... to those making every day a litany of scorn and drudgery.

My partner works in a primary school across town, and sees every day what leads to poor educational outcomes.

I'm sure your partner is a very good teacher, and deserves great praise for it. But sure she/he would admit that there are good teachers and bad teachers, just like there are people who are good and bad at any job.

Wouldn't she/he want to get paid more for being good at teaching vis-a-vis someone else who didn't put in as much effort or have the same skills? I'm not saying it's a panacea, but I cannot help but believe that paying better teachers more would make the profession more attractive and more rewarding. What's wrong with that and why won't teachers' unions even countenance the idea?

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[ljw1004]

I've never come across a fair, statistically meaningful measure of how "good" a teacher is.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Bryan Ischo]

Surely if there is a will, there is a way. How about:

- Hiring an independent third party to evaluate each teacher, evaluating:
- The lesson plan that the teacher is using
- The coursework assigned to the students over the course of the year
- The quality of grading and written feedback given to students
- Observe classroom interactions over periods of time (probably would require a video camera to be installed in the classroom full time which is only sometimes turned on, and the teacher cannot know when it is turned on)
- Compare testing outcomes as a broad metric (with the full understanding of how outcomes cannot necessarily be correlated to teacher effectiveness since so many other factors apply - but surely *some* limited conclusions can be drawn, and over years, a pattern established)
- Solicit anonymous feedback on teachers (once again using obvious common sense in recognizing that some feedback will not be accurate, but one would expect a pattern to appear over time)

It's not rocket science and you don't have to be 100% accurate to have a significantly positive effect on teacher quality using these and other obvious techniques.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[AmiMoJo]

So unless teachers refuse to pay at current wage rates en mass, the system isn't going to give them raises.

Nah, their jobs would just be outsourced. Put all the material online, and have teachers communicate via Skype from India.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[AmiMoJo]

If teachers' unions ever agree to let teachers be paid based on how good they are - rather than just by seniority - you might actually see more attractive salaries for good teachers.

How do you determine how good they are? Grades? No-one will want to teach difficult classes or in poor areas. Level of improvement? No-one will want to teach in good areas where standards are already high.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[AmiMoJo]

That is not happening in a household where the single parent works 3 jobs.

The way to fix that is after school clubs and activities. Then the parent just has to make the easy decision to keep their kid at school for a few more hours, and the school can give them a good meal and help with homework. It all needs extra staff and money of course, but it does work.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[MightyYar]

I completely agree. But I disagree that money is the stumbling block here - it is easy to blame finances, except for three facts:
- Funding for the US is, on average, either the highest or one of the highest in the world per pupil.
- Funding levels have consistently gone up in constant dollars since the 50s.
- Funding is more even now than ever. Education used to be almost 100% locally funded and now it is more than 50% funded by the states.

I no longer worry much about the funding - I feel that the answer must be that the whole institution is fundamentally flawed. They spend millions on shiny new facilities, state of the art teaching materials, smart boards, etc. They have huge administrations to deal with acres of paperwork resulting from the shift to state (and now federal) funding. They have a fad mentality when it comes to teaching methods, completely changing the school's curriculum whenever the winds of educational reform are blowing.

And yet, colleges continue to complain that students - even good students from "good" schools - are unprepared when they arrive.

Your solution won't be rejected because it is too expensive. Your solution won't be adopted because it makes some kids unequal to others - like summer school. And we mustn't damage their little psyches - that is supposed to be done later on by cold, hard reality.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Anonymous Coward]

You are pretty much on the money here. My kids are in a really good school system, but even there one wasn't getting all the math support she needed. I sent her to Kumon for a year or so to get the foundation right, and it really helped. Not every parent can do this, though, if they are even aware of the option.
Parents are key, but since you can change the parents you have to do the best you can with the kids.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[coinreturn]

I do not want kids to get used to DRM, walled gardens, and proprietary software. Plus, this is little more than corporate welfare.

Grow up. Other people aren't as radicalized as you are and actually like it.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[ImprovOmega]

I went to public school and had some great teachers who were worth their weight in gold. I also had other teachers who weren't worth a nickel and did a great amount of harm to their students.

If teachers' unions ever agree to let teachers be paid based on how good they are - rather than just by seniority - you might actually see more attractive salaries for good teachers.

The problem is how do you determine how "good" a teacher is? If it's based on student performance then what about the teacher that gets stuck with a class full of idiots? Maybe they're a great teacher doing the best they can but they can't get anywhere because the principal took all of the smart kids and moved them to the classroom of the teacher blowing him on the side so she gets bonuses. The only way to objectively measure a teacher's performance is by auditing their work and that's way too expensive to ever happen. So the crisis continues.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Anonymous Coward]

salary curve will not flatten. Union negotiators work for the active members, the vast majority of which are tenured experienced teachers. The union and school districts are willing to let new teachers take a salary hit, it does not cost the union much control, and the district sees it as free money.

Another thing that occurs is that districts with good students attract good teachers, most horrid districts (your terminolgy) attract younger, less experienced teachers who see the initial job as a stepping stone to getting a job in the 'burbs. Not sure how you get better teachers in for the horrid students, figure that one out and there be an overall rise in test scores.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who is firmly against rote memorization as a gauge of knowledge, pick a better example. Repetitive personal calculation is the best way to instill mathematical knowledge.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[internerdj]

If a teacher is one or maybe two standard deviations then skill doesn't matter that much. However, a bad teacher can traumatize a kid against learning and a good teacher can inspire a kid to pursue education beyond what they would have. My wife and I are trying to undo the harm that my child's kindergarten teacher did to his perception of education. He does math above his grade level for fun but he isn't interested in stepping foot in school again. I probably wouldn't be starting my dissertation now without the influence of my high school Chemistry teacher way back then.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Archangel Michael]

Actually, most teaching is done between K-8 schools, is simply basics. And some of it is really basic, even in 8th Grade. You don't start getting interesting until High School. Then again, Math and science is "hard", and therefore isn't really promoted. Higher level math and science (Calculus, Physics, Chemistry etc.) are so hard, that most teachers don't know the subject well enough to actually teach it.

But then again, I remember my college roommate's girlfriend going for her teaching credential, and couldn't do basic math in her head, and used a calculator and still got the wrong answer. Teaching seems to be the last resort for certain people, after all, you don't need a PhD to teach kindergarteners?

But when you pay a K-6 teacher the same as a HS Math and Physics teacher, you start to see the real problem.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Imazalil]

Hahahaha... Yeah... good luck with getting an 'open' os and apps onto a Schools network. I assume you decry the filtering and locking down of computers at all businesses nationwide as well right?

For computer related classes, sure give them some open (software & hardware) computers to go crazy with, but you'd be mad to let those onto the school-wide network.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[BasilBrush]

Even an entry level iPad has 16GB, which is enough for hundreds of books, or over a hundred of the largest app that can be downloaded wirelessly.

And unlike a notebook there is no chance of bandwidth being hogged by torrenting.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[Anonymous Coward]

If teachers' unions ever agree to let teachers be paid based on how good they are - rather than just by seniority - you might actually see more attractive salaries for good teachers

Nobody, anywhere, gets paid on merit. Are you still at school?

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[jeIIomizer]

I would be surprised to find someone who *likes* DRM. It's a fact that walled gardens and DRM are bad, and it's just ignorance that causes people to think otherwise. That's not even saying anything about proprietary software, though after the Snowden debacle (and there were many indications that the NSA was doing this before he leaked all that information), there's really no reason that someone should not want to know what software is doing.

Grow up.

You're disagreeing with me, so grow up. Rather than telling other people to "grow up," how about focusing on their actual arguments? That's something you didn't really do to begin with.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[jeIIomizer]

I assume you decry the filtering and locking down of computers at all businesses nationwide as well right?

I don't know about him, but I often do. Censorship usually just amounts to blocking things that some puritan moron doesn't like, which is a real problem.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[jeIIomizer]

But the real problems were as stated, which is that it's immoral to have DRM-infested, locked-down, proprietary devices in a supposedly educational environment. Either use an open device or don't use anything at all. The latter is okay, since the problem with our education system is not technology, but rote memorization, teaching to the test, standardized testing, and the fact that it's designed to be one-size-fits-all, among other things. Proprietary garbage like iPads won't fix that.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[MightyYar]

Agreed on bad teachers. I was trying to be careful to not to say that having a bad teacher was OK. But I also reject the hypothesis that paying teachers like rock stars would fix our educational system.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[rtb61]

It appears you have never ever configured a notebook for secure use environment, I assure they can be configured to download only what you want them to from a source you specify. 16GB less operating system, less applications, less multi-media content, less all required texts and plus references works and less student created content, shrinks to nothing pretty fast. Plus you can protect the screen and you have a keyboard whilst retaining a full sized screen. The drive with computerising schools to to get students to create content not bloody mindlessly consume it, just to drive corporate profits.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[coinreturn]

Rather than telling other people to "grow up," how about focusing on their actual arguments? That's something you didn't really do to begin with.

Well I would, had there been any arguments present. There weren't. It was all pure opinion. It is not "a fact" that walled gardens are bad - it's an opinion. You should really learn the difference.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[internerdj]

Fair enough. I did notice you were avoiding that. Paying them like rockstars probably wouldn't but paying them enough to compete with other careers in their field might give us a few more good ones and a little more flexibility in tossing out the bad.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[MightyYar]

I'm convinced that the teachers union is hell-bent on protecting bad teachers. Heck, they even oppose methods to try and measure teacher performance. Don't get me wrong - I'm not firmly on the side of the people who want to base teacher pay on standardized tests. But any interest which ignores the need to routinely purge the bottom of the barrel is clearly self interested at the expense of my kids. I therefore oppose simply throwing more money at the problem, since I feel it would be ineffective until the underlying structural problems are dealt with.

As an aside, I don't understand the approach that most unions take. Their position would be much stronger if they made their membership stronger. Culling the herd should not be such a cursed concept. Hard working union members should be incensed when slackers hitch on for the ride. Instead we see an institutional protection of the weakest members.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[JimFive]

That is not happening in a household where the single parent works 3 jobs.

The way to fix that is after school clubs and activities.

No, the way to fix that is to structure our society so that a person only needs to work 1 job to support their family. Potential ideas might include subsidized daycare, wage supports, basic income, increased availability of and respect for adult education, better transit systems, etc.
--
JimFive

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[JimFive]

Funding overall may be going up, but at least around here, general funding isn't very good. iPods, etc are bought with grant funds while teachers are paying out of pocket for basic classroom supplies.
--
JimFive

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[MightyYar]

Again, I completely agree. But I refuse to support throwing more money at the problem until they fix the systemic issues. If we are buying iPads while lacking pencils, this is just plain stupid and we need to address the stupidity. We already spend more per pupil than any other country in the world, and more in constant dollars than at any time in our history. More money will not fix anything.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[BasilBrush]

It appears you have never ever configured a notebook for secure use environment, I assure they can be configured to download only what you want them to from a source you specify.

Sure they can. You can pay technicians to make sure they are locked down and patched in the same way that iPads are locked down out of the box.

16GB less operating system, less applications, less multi-media content, less all required texts and plus references works and less student created content, shrinks to nothing pretty fast.

Do you actually own an iPad? Because I can assure you that's not the case. Movies will fill it up, as will the entire MP3 collection that some teenage kid has ripped off. But there's no chance of making a dent on it with a years worth of educational materials.

Plus you can protect the screen and you have a keyboard whilst retaining a full sized screen.

You like laptops. I get it. So do I. But they are not the best thing for school level education. The educational content available for the iPad is endless and far outdoes what's available for PCs. The great thing is that kids use direct manipulation through the touch screen. There is no level of indirectness as their is with using a mouse and keyboard to control software.

The drive with computerising schools to to get students to create content not bloody mindlessly consume it, just to drive corporate profits.

You're really playing through your biases now aren't you. You do realise those laptops you are suggesting cost money. And in most cases the content creation software you refer to is Microsoft Office.

Probably in your mind it's Linux. But that's not the real world of school education in most cases.

As to creating content, school has always had more consumption than creation. What do you think text books are? Stuff done by the teacher on blackboards, whiteboards, and these days projector screens? Thats consumption too. Of course they have to do tests based on that content. For which the iPad is a better option than a laptop. And any artwork or design work is better done with an iPad than a laptop (of course in actual art classes they'll mostly use paper).

At some point they'll be writing of course. And there, finally you do have something that the laptop is better for. But school writing tops out at about 500 words. And kids don't have a problem with typing on a screen.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[internerdj]

Well I buy their argument that figuring out which teachers are truly bad teachers is exceptionally hard. Stakes are high, evaluation is tough, results play out over a long time, and there are really important corner cases for any evaluating. Parents should have a say but not too much. Peers should have a say but not too much. I guess it falls on administrators but that is our current scheme.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[jeIIomizer]

Nope. It's an absolute fact that trying to control your users in such a draconian way is bad.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[MightyYar]

I agree that it is hard, but we've had over a hundred years of public education to figure this out. I suspect some combination scoring from peers, parents, and administration along with maybe some test scores. We have to do something, and that is why I don't push too hard against the standardized testing - despite the obvious flaws, at least they are trying to affect change. It should be completely routine to lay off the bottom performing teachers in a district each year or so. Tiny districts are exceptions, of course - but most of your cities and suburban schools would stand to benefit.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[coinreturn]

Nope. It's an absolute fact that trying to control your users in such a draconian way is bad.

Are you really that obtuse as to believe that a VALUE JUDGEMENT of BAD is fact, not opinion. Your brain is broken.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[jeIIomizer]

Walled gardens are absolutely immoral, and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply ignorant.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[coinreturn]

Fail. Argument ad hominem.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[jeIIomizer]

I did not say, "I am absolutely right because you are ignorant." or anything of the sort. Get an understanding of what argument ad hominem is. Making a statement without attempting to back it up does not qualify, and neither does simply insulting someone.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[coinreturn]

Re-read your own comment. You said, "...and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply ignorant." That is most certainly ad hominem. But someone who doesn't know the difference between opinion and fact can hardly be expected to understand logical fallacies.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[jeIIomizer]

That is most certainly ad hominem.

That's an insult, not a fallacy. Insulting someone is not a fallacy.

But someone who doesn't know the difference between opinion and fact can hardly be expected to understand logical fallacies.

But someone who doesn't know the difference between opinion and fact can hardly be expected to understand logical fallacies.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[coinreturn]

Perhaps you'll understand your own style - you're an asshole with no brains who couldn't win an argument with a rock.

Re:Yeah, students will use bandwidth

[jeIIomizer]

Perhaps you'll understand your own style - you're an asshole with no brains who couldn't win an argument with a rock.

Mission creep.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the kids love them and yes, they probably do have educational value... but look at the mission creep. The district becoming its own ISP next? Can of worms.

Public funding for education going into internet bandwidth for widgets... well, it takes a bridging argument to say that's a good thing.

Re:Mission creep.

[timrod]

I think it's less mission creep and more the school district not foreseeing what they'd need to do to make their iPad initiative work. I don't know California very well, but the article makes it sound like it's in a pretty low-wealth district: the article itself mentions that many of the parents do not own personal computers or have an internet connection, and the Wikipedia page for the district states that it's 80% Hispanic. The iPads don't seem to be useful if they're not connected, at least not for what the school wants them for (kids being able to do school assignments, parents staying involved in their child's education). The school probably thought they had enough bandwidth to serve all of their students and their families, probably never called in a network admin to see if they could support connecting anyone who lives near the school, and went through with it anyway.

Re:Mission creep.

[Anonymous Coward]

There are several systems across the country looking at becoming ISP's. In most cases I've heard of, its because they feel its the only way to guarantee 'net access at home to underprivileged kids. No point in sending a laptop home and assigning work on blackboard if the kids can't get to it.

Re:Mission creep.

[nine-times]

but look at the mission creep. The district becoming its own ISP next? Can of worms.

On the other hand, it's a can of worms that probably wouldn't have needed to be opened if we had some kind of a plan to develop public internet infrastructure that was free/cheap for people without a lot of money.

I only bring this up because I would imagine some people looking at this and saying, "A public school system should not be intruding into the area of being an ISP, which has traditionally been an area for private business." I would respond by pointing out that the Internet really should be considered public telecommunications infrastructure.

Re:Mission creep.

[Anonymous Coward]

A school in my country also rolled out (Android based, something from Samsung) tablets during a government tests. Most students performance did not really change with the tablets, but a certain group learned much much much better with the tablets. Turns out that the test program had been cracked and modified to show the correct answers next to each question. Some guys could root it and install the modified version...

Re:Mission creep.

[rsborg]

Yes, the kids love them and yes, they probably do have educational value... but look at the mission creep. The district becoming its own ISP next? Can of worms.

Public funding for education going into internet bandwidth for widgets... well, it takes a bridging argument to say that's a good thing.

How would you feel if the school district made money off this venture thereby lowering tax burden or removing the need for "school foundation" donation culture? I, for one, would love that.

Re:Mission creep.

[larryjoe]

Yes, the kids love them and yes, they probably do have educational value...

Actually, the question of educational value is the big elephant in the room. It is completely questionable and absolutely not obvious that these tablets have educational value. Do the kids learn more, faster, or in different ways? Can this be quantified or even vaguely estimated? There are huge IT capital and operational costs involved, and such large expenditures must be justified in terms of return.

It's telling that the article and even the discussion on Slashdot centers on technical questions because those issues are all tangential. If the main goals focus on avoiding the theft of machines and the bypass of parental controls, then the entire project is misguided. How are the children learning, and how does that learning compare to the previous system of learning? What did the $20 million buy?

Re:Mission creep.

[BitZtream]

Considering the whole iBooks is designed to allow for text book replacement thing, this is also good for the backs of students that can potentially not have to carry 20 pounds of text books with them every day.

Just because you've not bothered to understand all the ways having a tablet is a great advance doesn't mean its a 'probably'.

Schools run their own internal phone systems already? Mission creep? Just like businesses who run their own phone systems? At a certain scale its cheaper to pay a guy to do the work internally and do it in a way thats for YOUR best interest, not the guy selling it too you.

And by 'becoming their own ISP' what that probably translates too is upgrades to the existing private data lines between he schools and a bigger pipe into the district main data center to carry student bandwidth instead of buying WiFi access from AT&T/Verizon at a ridiculous rate. They'll buy bulk bandwidth instead of consumer and save a fortune.

Re:Mission creep.

[gurps_npc]

This is not Mission Creep.

Mission Creep is when the mission changes to something new. That is a bad thing.

But people use that term whenever a government program expands.

Often missions start small and grow big. That is because 1) The scope of the problem was not realized when the program started.

2) The program's scope was realized and they correctly decided to start small (which they may or may not have informed everyone ) and make sure they got it right before then went big. Often people doing this intentionally do not mention this to their enemies - as the enemies will use it as an excuse to not do the work. Why should we save the entire environment? Why should we get rid of ALL of polio? Those things cost too much!!!

The worse case is when the people against the original program complain about 'mission creep' when the plan to save the few people who lived to 65 from abject poverty suddenly becomes saving all the many many people that live to 65.

This is not mission creep. This is simply maintaining the original program and making sure it worked, even though the problem is now a lot bigger.

Re:Mission creep.

[Belial6]

The claim that kids and their parents don't have access to internet is severely overstated. We are not only talking about the US, we are talking about California. There is free internet everywhere for those of us that want it. Becoming an ISP would only be to try and capture those kids and parents where the parents find getting near a Starbucks, Lowes, Safeway, Home Depot, McDonalds, etc. to be more trouble than it's worth.

Beyond that, I have to question the intelligence of buying iPads. We are not in 2010 anymore. There are plenty of perfectly capable tablets available at under $100.

Re:Mission creep.

[Chryana]

I think they should collect some statistics on network usage. They might suddenly start using a lot less bandwidth if restrict access to a few sites.

Re:Mission creep.

[nine-times]

Beyond that, I have to question the intelligence of buying iPads. We are not in 2010 anymore. There are plenty of perfectly capable tablets available at under $100.

There are more things to consider than simply the cost of the hardware. Do the iPads have any specific features that are required for their plans? Are there specific apps that they want to use? What platforms are those applications available for? What kind of administrative tools are available for each platform, and have they already invested in any of those tools? Is their IT staff more familiar and skilled in managing a specific platform? What kinds of price cuts and support are offered by the manufacturer?

Saving even a couple of hundred dollars per unit might be a drop in the bucket when compared with the peripheral costs. Yes, IT departments everywhere might be able to save a little money on the purchase of each computer by buying all of their parts from NewEgg and installing Linux on the computer that they cobble together from parts. Still, it ends up being cheaper, when you add up all the peripheral costs, to buy ready-made computers from Dell with Windows pre-installed.

Not everyone who buys Apple products is an idiot.

Re:Mission creep.

[pr0fessor]

When I was in school I was always excited to go to my science class because we did experiments.... unfortunately my kids never got to experience that due to, possible danger, funding, and insurance considerations all they did was read about it. {but they still have football}

I would rather they bring back science to science classes...

Re:Mission creep.

[nine-times]

There is free internet everywhere for those of us that want it. Becoming an ISP would only be to try and capture those kids and parents where the parents find getting near a Starbucks, Lowes, Safeway, Home Depot, McDonalds, etc. to be more trouble than it's worth.

So your solution for providing poor people with the Internet is to suggest that they go to Starbucks and McDonalds?

I guess that's a solution. I guess we could also say that poor people don't need indoor plumbing because they can just use the toilet at their local gas station. It seems to me like it's a silly, inefficient solution that will be unpleasant for everyone involved, so I'd need more of a justification before I would agree.

Re:Mission creep.

[Obfuscant]

if you aren't on Android which does everything it can to keep you tethered to Google.

-1 flamebait.

I have several Android devices. Every one of them works just fine without a connection to Google. Even for Play Books, I've pinned each of them onto the device (translation: downloaded) so there is no issue with being connected.

The only connection issue I've come across is for the "free app of the day" apps from Amazon, where many of them want to check in with Amazon for authorization every month or so. That's created a situation where I needed an app "offline" and couldn't use it. I've learned to go online and start up any app that I want to make sure will be available when I'm offline, or go without. The latter is pretty easy.

So, "does everything it can to keep you tethered to Google" really means "doesn't do very much", and Amazon is by far a worse offender in that area than Google.

Re:Mission creep.

[Belial6]

We are talking about tablets. You are in the wrong discussion.

Re:Mission creep.

[Belial6]

You know what? I am suggesting that they go near them, yes. I noticed you left out, Home Depot, Lowes and etc. in your lie. Congratulations. You are official one of the reasons that our public education system is a failure.

Re:Mission creep.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, mission creep is when the original mission expands to include things not originally part of the mission. It's similar to feature creep, when new features not originally planned for are added as the project goes on. They're both considered bad things and indicators of impending failure.

It's in the word. Creep. A creeper vine expands and expands, encompassing more ground.

Re:Mission creep.

[khellendros1984]

if you aren't on Android which does everything it can to keep you tethered to Google.

What are you talking about, specifically? On every Android device I own, connection to Google services is optional (if you're willing to flash the OS), and an internet connection is no more necessary to use the functions of the device than it is on iOS devices.

Re:Mission creep.

[dk20]

I have 5 android tablets in my house (two for myself, and one for each of my kids).

Two things I'd like to share:
1) The kids have NEVER liked reading off any tablet (not the kindle, not the nook and not the samsung galaxy's). They are avid readers, but physical books only and I can't convince them otherwise.
2) Speaking about posting without having a clue at all... Your "tethered to Google" seems to fit the bill for posting without any idea what you are talking about.

Bonus: the kids did create accounts in google play without a credit card with ease as they wanted to grab a few apps.

Extra points for your use of "dead trees" to describe physical books. It was just as cool in 2004 as it is now.

Re:Mission creep.

[david-bo]

If you can't afford internet connection you definitelyt can't afford having kids. Take some responsibility and get a decent job *before you have kids. If you don't have internet connection at home for economic reasons you are unsuitable as a parent.

Re:Mission creep.

[brantondaveperson]

It astonishes me that you appear to actually be serious. Yes, I can see people sending their kids to Home Depot so they can hide amongst the shelves and do their homework. Good plan.

And yes of course homework might involve the internet, just as once homework may very well once have involved looking something up in an encyclopaedia.

Re:Mission creep.

[Kremmy]

I really wish my iPod Touch would just accept the fact that I've disabled wireless instead of nagging me to turn it on every time to decides to send a packet back to the NSA. It's seriously frustrating to try to work offline on devices that don't want you to.

Re:Mission creep.

[John.Banister]

Don't worry. This is too much like municipal wifi for the school's plan not to be sued out of existence. Those kids need to learn the valuable lesson that internet connectivity is not a redistributable commodity. It's a name-brand product, and it will always cost you.

Re:Mission creep.

[Belial6]

That is because you are looking for a reason to keep the current failed system, or spend huge amounts of money on non-solutions. The kid doesn't have to "Hide among the shelves" and you know it. The kid can sit in a comfortable seat in front of a Starbucks, they can sit in a nice padded seat at the Library, or they can go to a friends house, or they can get online dozens of other ways. Pretending like they have to skulk around between shelves is simply a lie. Congratulations. You are another reason that the public schools system is a failure.

Re:Mission creep.

[mpe]

Saving even a couple of hundred dollars per unit might be a drop in the bucket when compared with the peripheral costs. Yes, IT departments everywhere might be able to save a little money on the purchase of each computer by buying all of their parts from NewEgg and installing Linux on the computer that they cobble together from parts. Still, it ends up being cheaper, when you add up all the peripheral costs, to buy ready-made computers from Dell with Windows pre-installed.

Except that OEM preinstalls tend to be of very little vaule in "enterprise" environments. Even those fairly free of "crapware".

Re:Mission creep.

[StripedCow]

Do the iPads have any specific features that are required for their plans? Are there specific apps that they want to use? What platforms are those applications available for?

Educational apps should be written for the web, in the first place.

Re:Mission creep.

[nine-times]

What, you don't think there's anything involved in configuring and maintaining tablets? I would guess, then, that you're not an IT guy.

You may be imagining that they're just handing out 20,000 tablets for each student to use as they please, but I would not expect that. I may be wrong, but in most cases where I've heard of schools providing tablets for children, there's an absurd amount of labor involved.

In IT in general and especially with schools, where you're going to want to restrict them, every tablet is going to have to be monitored and tracked, and regularly wiped and reconfigured. The configuration may be complex and very restricted. There will probably be 3rd party tools involved, which the IT staff will have to buy and will have to be trained on. Very often, spending a little extra to get the right tablets and tools will save enough money in labor and training to be worth it.

Re:Mission creep.

[nine-times]

Again, I would need more of a justification before I could possibly agree with you.

What do you imagine, that poor children will go sit on the cold sidewalk next to McDonalds every night in order to do their homework? And what if the WiFi gets saturated from having a bunch of kids? I think McDonalds would likely be unhappy with this arrangement and maybe even cut off the internet. Or should these children be eating at McDonalds every night to keep McDonalds happy? Because that's great for children.

But you're right. There's also Home Depot, so 200 children will go sit in the aisles of Home Depot. I'm sure that'll work out really well.

We're quickly getting to the point where the Internet is required for living what society considers a "normal life". It's not weird to think that the Internet is becoming a form of infrastructure that should be expected to be available to everyone, like water and electricity.

It's likely that I won't respond to anything else that you write, because either you're a troll or you're... I don't know what. Dumb and heartless? Ignorantly indifferent to the struggles people face? Whatever it is, it's not worth arguing until you're actually thinking about what you're saying.

Re:Mission creep.

[deKernel]

Boy do I wish I could lump all of my mod points onto this comment.

Re:Mission creep.

[nine-times]

There are plenty of IT departments that are not "enterprise" IT departments. Aside from that, "enterprise" IT departments often still go with a vendor like Dell or HP rather than trying to build their own systems, because the peripheral costs associated with building their own would wipe out any savings.

Re:Mission creep.

[nine-times]

How is this labelled "Informative"? You may as well be saying, "We should cut educational expenses by only allowing smart people to have children, and only allowing well-behaved children to attend school." It completely misses the point. We, as a society, need to anticipate that lots of people will have children whether or not we individually believe it to be a wise move. Once those children exist, we need to deal with them, and the best thing we can do is to make sure they're educated, and that they have the opportunity to become productive adults.

Re:Mission creep.

[Anonymous Coward]

possible danger, funding, and insurance considerations all they did was read about it. {but they still have football}

So it's not about possible danger or insurance issues (since they still have football). It's about the dumber society gets the less they demand quality education (because they don't even know what that means).

Re:Mission creep.

[Archangel Michael]

Personally, I would say buying iOS devices is a mistake generally, but not necessarily in every case. I'm in Educational IT (K-12), and have seen quite a number of pilots in our district trying to decide what is "best" option. The answer is, "it depends".

Personally, I see much more value in Chromebooks in education, especially when tied to Google Apps For Education (GAFE). Have you heard of Google Classroom? https://classroom.google.com/s... Having taken a look at the promo videos (yes, I understand) but if it is half as easy as it looks, it is going to change how we do education.

Add in things like Khan Academy, and other "online" educational material, the world is our oyster field. I see, in the future, customized education for every student, where we break free from the industrial model of Education.

Re:Mission creep.

[nine-times]

Agreed. Chromebooks seem like a very good solution.

I wasn't trying to argue that iPads were actually the best solution, but rather that you can't simply compare the retail price of iPads to another tablet and conclude that the iPad is a worse solution because it's more expensive. The are a lot of factors in play. Deciding which solution is best requires eliminating any solution that doesn't meet the needs of the program, then calculating something akin to TCO (Total Cost of Ownership), and finally allowing some influence for preference. Yes, sorry guys, if the people you're serving simply prefer Apple products, even if it's only a preference, that should be a factor. You have to decide how much of a factor.

Again, iPads may not come out on top, but it's a bigger calculation than simply looking at the sticker price.

Re:Mission creep.

[Belial6]

I am in IT, and you are massively overstating the case. Over stating to the point of it being a lie. That is why you tried to use a PC argument against better value tablets.

You and I both know that there are two viable tablet OSes. They both have management tools. This is a new installation, so existing software ownership is not an issue. You are making excuses for schools spending over 4 times as much for their hardware than they need to.

Re:Mission creep.

[Belial6]

Don't respond. You are making up lame excuses anyway. You seem to think that every child in the school district is without internet access. The number of kids without internet access at home is small. The number of businesses and organizations that offer free internet access is large. The Library alone makes your entire ill thought out objections moot. Getting free access to the internet was an argument that was made and settled a long time ago.

Re:Mission creep.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck me, I hope to god you have ZERO contact with any children, cause fucking hell, you are one messed up cunt.

Seriously, remove the Fandroid dildo from your ass and open your eyes.

Or just fuck off. Either Or.

Re:Mission creep.

[nine-times]

I am in IT, and you are massively overstating the case. Over stating to the point of it being a lie.

Well then you're a piss-poor IT person. Otherwise you'd know that you need to know the parameters for a project before you can choose a solution, which was exactly what I was pointing out. If your company says, "we need to buy a tablet for every employee" and you just run out and buy a bunch of the cheapest Android tablets you can buy, without asking any additional questions, then you don't know what the hell you're doing.

First question: What are the requirements here?

If they don't have a very clear answer, then the next question is, why are we doing this and what are we hoping to accomplish? And then you decipher the requirements from the answer to that question. For example, if the answer is, "We need to run this specific iOS application" and you've run out to buy a bunch of Android tablets, then you're fucked. Or it could be "We need tablets fitting these specific technical requirements," which turns out you should have purchased more expensive Android tablets, and not the cheapest model. Or it could be, "We just need something that's easy to type a lot of text on," in which case you might want to put on the breaks and find out if they really want tablets, or if ultrabooks would serve better.

You have to know what problem you're trying to solve before you pick your tools.

But wait a second... You're the same guy who is suggesting that poor children should be expected to do their homework on the sidewalks outside of McDonalds? I just noticed that. Geeze, no wonder I'm responding to so many insane posts. They're all coming from the same troll.

Re:Mission creep.

[Belial6]

No. You are simply a liar. I have never suggested that children do homework on a sidewalk. You just believe that if you lie hard enough it make you right.

Re:Mission creep.

[Obfuscant]

My "new" (new to me) Galaxy Tab3 has a "disable background data" option (buried somewhere I've forgotten now) to stop continuous data leaks. And when you turn that option on, there is a continuous notification that background data has been disabled and "touch here to re-enable".

Thanks. I turned it off, stop telling me to turn it back on.

What about the married students?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do they not get iPads?

School district ISP

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

>> why the CVUSD is considering becoming its own ISP

Because they are in Palm Springs and money falls like leaves there?

>> Metrics are hard to come by after only a single school year

Don't they already have standardized tests? (http://www.gamutonline.net/district/coachellavalley/displayPolicy/244798/6)

Re:School district ISP

[Anonymous Coward]

CVUSD is at the poor end of the valley, not in Palm Springs.

Re:School district ISP

[Anonymous Coward]

Because of transition to the computerized SBAC test from previous years of STAR testing, the test results did not count this past school year in California

Expensive?

[Anonymous Coward]

iPads may seem expensive to some people but when you consider the price of traditional books, an iPad could be a bargain. When I was in school some twenty years ago, textbooks were $50-100+ a piece. They would get replaced every 2-3 years. A iPad plus some sort of open courseware could be a cheaper solution and it would be easier on the backs of the students.

All this being said, the public school I went to would replace books every couple of years. I actually spend my first six years in private school and they would keep their books for much longer. I remember one book that was around 12 years old with most being 5-6 years old.

Re:Expensive?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that the iPads will inevitably fall behind on the technology curve and need to be replaced just as frequently as books. I would say 2-3 years of usage out of them before needing to be replaced would be about standard. Maybe push it for 4 years before the device needs to be decommissioned and replaced.

I expect that in the end, this all electronic textbook format would end up costing just as much as the traditional method of buying and replacing books.

That being said, my public school kept books far longer than 2-3 years. Mostly because Algebra, Trigonometry, and Pre-Calculus don't actually change very much over the course of a decade. Subjects such as English and foreign languages can see you reusing books for quite a long time as well. Especially when it comes to literature, unless they change the proscribed course materials.

Re:Expensive?

[ChadL]

The digital versions of textbooks that I've thus far seen are anything but free, unless the district got a special deal on the digital text book versions for the iPad's that make them less expensive. Without having said numbers (that I'm sure are under multiple NDA's) speculation on the overall price is difficult.
Looking at the Google Play textbook store (because its easy to look at and ebook prices seem the same across sources in my experience) they are between $40-$50 each, and then couldn't be transferred between devices (e.g. students) if they are given rather then loaned the iPad (article uses the term 'given'); again could be changed with a special contract.

Re:Expensive?

[TechyImmigrant]

>textbooks were $50-100+ a piece

They cost that because the publishers are in a nice corruption loop with the school boards.

The school boards bless particular books from particular publishers and the publishers update the books each year so they have to be re-purchased. Unknown benefits flow from the publishers to the school board members.

Obviously it would be cheaper for education districts to band together and commission their own textbooks that cost $0 to distribute once written. But the school boards are strangely disinterested in this option.

Re:Expensive?

[jeIIomizer]

It would be even less expensive if the government just paid someone to write books in the public domain when necessary. Hell, some great books already are in the public domain, and yet we're too busy funneling taxpayer money to scumbag corporations to care.

Re:Expensive?

[damn_registrars]

Obviously it would be cheaper for education districts to band together and commission their own textbooks that cost $0 to distribute once written.

That is an oversimplification, to say the least. Even if you have a collection of districts who paid for the development of a textbook, it still has a non-zero distribution cost once it is complete. It still needs to be printed and delivered. If you want to go without actually printing it, you have to pay for the bandwidth to host it so that people can read the electronic copy (and then come up with a solution for kids who aren't connected to the internet at home or are disabled in a way that makes computer use impractical). Parents will complain about errors and ommissions in the book which will end up dictating rewrites.

This is not a small thing you are asking for, here. Your proposal then requires the school boards to fund such productions for every topic of every grade - in some cases multiple levels of one subject for each grade.

But the school boards are strangely disinterested in this option.

Primarily because the school boards aren't in the business of writing textbooks or funding the creation of the same.

Re:Expensive?

[jeIIomizer]

This is not a small thing you are asking for, here.

No, it's not a small thing, but neither is the millions of taxpayer dollars wasting paying for crappy overpriced books that should be in the public domain anyway. Even if they had to pay someone to replace all the books, that would still end up being cheaper in the long run.

Primarily because the school boards aren't in the business of writing textbooks or funding the creation of the same.

But apparently they are in the business of wasting taxpayer money by giving slimy publishers lots and lots of it.

Re:Expensive?

[Anonymous Coward]

Primarily because the school boards aren't in the business of writing textbooks or funding the creation of the same.

WHY NOT?

I would prefer them spend their time and money doing this and [hopefully] reinvesting the savings into the district, rather than whore my child out selling candy bars and mixed nuts for new sheet music or baseball uniforms.

Seriously, rethink that proposition for a moment.
School boards developing educational materiel for use in educating students [potentially] cheaper and more efficiently?
This seems like the one thing they SHOULD be in the business of.

Re:Expensive?

[TechyImmigrant]

Just put the PDFs on a website for parents and school children to download.
Also put the source files up so that people can enhance the texts.

All US schools seem to have a web site, so the incremental cost of distribution is close to $0.

>Your proposal then requires the school boards to fund such productions
Minus the cost of paying huge sums to the publishers. The savings will accrue pretty darn quickly.

Re:Expensive?

[SydShamino]

>> Your proposal then requires the school boards to fund such productions for every topic of every grade - in some cases multiple levels of one subject for each grade.

No it doesn't. It requires them (the thousands of them) to fund one topic at one level in one grade, then see what happens after that. Maybe don't start with social studies which might be obsolete in five years, and instead start with fourth grade multiplication which won't change in the next 50. Then go from there at an affordable pace.

Re:Expensive?

[knorthern knight]

> Primarily because the school boards aren't in the business of
> writing textbooks or funding the creation of the same.

Classical English literature
===================
you can get Shakespeare's works *FREE* from project Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/ebook...

Astronomy
========
http://nineplanets.org/ (yeah, the website name is an anachronism) *FREE* and since it's a website, you don't need to order and pay for a new edition each time new discoveries are made

Evolution
=======
Tree of Life Project http://tolweb.org/tree/

Dinosaur Specific http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/d... *FREE* and since it's a website, you don't need to order and pay for a new edition each time new discoveries are made

For those fundamentalist schools who don't believe in evolution Project Gutenberg has the King James Bible and the Douay-Rheims version

A school district should be able to get a good chunk of its needs free off the web. Most of these sites will easily give permission to download and duplicate. Instead of handing out 16 KG of books to each student, hand out 16-gigabyte USB keys to each student with the necessary e-books and/or mirrored websites.

Re:Expensive?

[Belial6]

Excuse me? It is the schools job to educate children. The public education system has almost 4 million employees who have been certified as being experts at imparting information to children. It most certainly is their job to write books if that is the best way to impart that information.

They are talking about becoming an ISP to support this $20 million investment in iPads. Writing textbooks comes WAY before becoming ISP when it comes to a school and school board's business. Write me a $20 million dollar check, and I will get you textbooks written with a copyleft license. Your distribution costs most certainly will be close enough to zero as to not even being worth mention. A $20/month Linode account will give you enough bandwidth to distribute to the entire state, if not the entire nation. That is if you couldn't get someone like Microsoft or Google to host it for free.

Neither the iPads, nor the current general textbook purchases cover those with disabilities, and for those few kids that don't have access to read electronic books, an ebook reader can be had for less than the cost of a printed textbook. Frequently way less.

No, every one of your excuses are cop outs.

Re:Expensive?

[bloodhawk]

Ipad or not, you still have to pay for the text books in electronic form. Prices are dictated by the publisher, only a fraction of the price is related to the media they are delivered on.

Re:Expensive?

[R3d M3rcury]

Except that the iPads will inevitably fall behind on the technology curve and need to be replaced [...]

Depends on what you're using it for. If you've got your standard courseware, why would you need to upgrade the iPad? So it's running iOS 5 instead of iOS 8, that doesn't affect your courseware.

I'd also point out that an iPad 2 from 2011 is compatible with iOS 8 from 2015. So there's four years right there.

Re:Expensive?

[gnu-sucks]

You've got this exactly correct. Educate. Don't waste our money, time, and most importantly, our students' childhood on a "device."

I guarantee you that if I were educating students with a chalkboard I could do better than a moron with the latest iPad. Or google tablet or whatever.

Let's get better teachers and better materials, not more technology.

"Oh, but our kids won't learn how to use Office XYZ and Windows F" Big deal. They can pick that up pretty quick any time. Let's get them THINKING and LEARNING first.

Re:Expensive?

[schnell]

you can get Shakespeare's works *FREE*

Is it the edition of Shakespeare's works that comes with tests & answers, definitions of archaic words, historical background and age-appropriate commentary and explanations? I always forget if that is the First or Second Quarto.

As an adult, I enjoy reading Shakespeare's works and have copies, both printed and electronic. But to teach Shakespeare you need textbooks, not just the source texts. Textbooks do actually add value in many cases, and it requires someone knowledgeable (e.g. not Wikipedia) to write, edit & proof them and get paid for it.

Re:Expensive?

[Anonymous Coward]

Prices are not zero but the overall point that text books cost too much is accurate.

$110 for a high school algebra book? $90 for a latin text? (these were the replacement costs for my son's text books)

These prices are not reasonable given that paperbacks sell for less than $10 and there is little new content with each edition. Schools are buying new editions every 3 to 4 years, my high school daughter's book fees are $370 this year, so much for the free public education.

Irresponsible to roll them out at all...

[dmomo]

While quite sturdy devices, iPads are not designed for rolling. Couldn't they have just carried them out? Typical government idiocy.

and now that every kid has a new ipad

[Anonymous Coward]

They have one more thing that stands between them and actually learning anything.

Why does every kid need an ipad to learn to read, write and do math?

Oh yea, because it's so cool and people are most concerned with cool over good educational results.

Re:and now that every kid has a new ipad

[Anonymous Coward]

...and "OMG, FOR THE CHILDREN!!!" arm waving. This is functionally equivalent to putting those family stick figure stickers on your back car window. Everyone says the American education system is messed up and buying a crate of overpriced Apple toys is the solution?

There's only one way that that's a good idea

[Voyager529]

It's only a good idea if they can negotiate a peering agreement with Verizon so that they don't end up getting the slow internet anyway...but then Verizon will be mad at them and try to get the internet on their side by writing a public nastygram, which might actually be a good thing because Verizon will find itself on the wrong end of the "Think of the Children!" argument.

Re:There's only one way that that's a good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

It's okay, the content filter likely blocks Netflix anyhow. They will need to adjust it to allow Verizon's Redbox Instant, but I'm sure they'll be okay with that, right?

They are also in danger of going bankrupt ?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.desertsun.com/story/news/education/2014/04/07/coachella-valley-unified-school-district-layoffs/7429571/

"The list of positions facing layoffs are varied and wide-reaching, but the largest layoffs include instructional media technicians (19), project data technicians (18)"

You buy how many iPads then start trimming IT staff ?

File with the FCC

[silas_moeckel]

Not really much of an important step, get some fiber back to the nearest colo/carrier hotel/etc, one or more 10ge, a bgp ASN and some IPv6 addresses along with some IPv4 for legacy stuff and 6 to 4 NAT.

Re:File with the FCC

[gnu-sucks]

And then hire some cisco-approved "experts" to recommend you the latest configuratable ipv6 fancy-pants 100Gig routers for each classroom. They will give fancy "the future is here" 3D presentations to the principal and board, and make sure you loose every last dime that could have purchased time with real educators and industry experts to actually help educate.

Re:File with the FCC

[silas_moeckel]

At this point you would have to be buying decade old networking gear to not support ipv6. I would stick away from cisco for a school and many other places as real lifetime support on networking gear is built in by HP etc so cisco's TCO sucks, tack on the support bait and switch you need a service contact BS.

From the sounds of this district it's extremely poor, internet access can be a game changer in education for the kids and their parents.

Did anything improve?

[unencode200x]

I read the article and it's scant on details about anything other than they're sucking bandwidth like crazy, taking the Internet down for the entire district, the IT guys were caught way off guard, and the kids and parents like them. The article doesn't talk about how the iPads (it also mentions some ChromeBooks) have improved or otherwise affected grades, education, or anything. Anyone that has actually done have insight on that? Yes, I've Googled it, but it'd be nice to hear from someone in the field. I'm looking at this for a school I volunteer at too. Bandwidth is definitely an issue.

Re:Did anything improve?

[AK Marc]

Why do you require some increase in a number of some multiple-choice test to consider it's success?

The number-1 predictor of student achievement is "how much they like school". If students hate school, they hate learning, and grow into dumb adults for whom everything is "hard". But students that like school, even if they don't learn much in any particular year, will associate learning with fun, and will continue to do so long after school is done.

Re:Did anything improve?

[Anonymous Coward]

So we just fill the schools with hooker and coke because "kids will really like school" and then it's all a big fucking success!

You sir win the award for fucking idiot of the year.

Re:Did anything improve?

[AK Marc]

How was your childhood where at age 5 your idea of nirvana was hookers and coke?

Most children are naturally curious. Feed that curiosity in a fun way gets much better results than desks, "teaching" (that's really lecturing) and worksheets. Even if the rote memorization and stiffling environment will raise performance the next quarter. When the schools follow the corporate model of "next quarter" results, then the schools will fail. 6th grade is for making the best 25 year old possible, not the best 7th grader possible.

Re:Did anything improve?

[Anonymous Coward]

I see your hyperbole and raise you one; you, sir, are the fucking idiot of the MILLENIUM.

What did your school do to you to make you such an asshole, anyway? Kids should like school. If we can figure out ways to engage them in learning (ipads would not be my first choice) then we stand a better chance of them not turning out like us; we don't need any more idiot ACs on /.

Re:Did anything improve?

[Krishnoid]

Well, it was blackjack and hookers in my case. Then again, I was a precocious little scamp.

-- Bender

Re:Did anything improve?

[SecurityGuy]

How do you plan to measure this, exactly? I get your point that the end goal is competent adults, not test performance per se, but I've firsthand seen how my own kids can fail to get a concept well enough, and that leads to not getting the next concept, and so on. If you're not good at addition, you won't be good at multiplication, and so on through high school and you're just HOSED when you need to be good at trigonometry.

Come on, people. Science works. Things that work are...testable. If you're advocating some educational strategy, but reject the notion that it's testable, you're rejecting basic science. If that describes you, kindly keep your hands off education policy.

Re:Did anything improve?

[AK Marc]

How do you plan to measure this, exactly?

You don't measure it "exactly".

What are you demanding be measured? You measure enjoyment of the subject, and some general (low pressure, and non binding) tests on subject matter.

Come on, people. Science works. Things that work are...testable. If you're advocating some educational strategy, but reject the notion that it's testable, you're rejecting basic science.

I think you are confusing things. What are you wanting to test? The end of the year, high-pressure tests to measure "understanding" of the material, even if it crushes the spirit of the students?

You'd happily harm the education of the students, so long as it gives you a number that makes you feel better?

If that describes you, kindly keep your hands off education policy.

I think you are the one that needs to keep your hands off education.

Oh, and if you think what I suggested isn't "testable" then you are dumber than the chair I'm sitting on. I can think of 100+ ways to test it. They just don't work well as mass standardized tests given every quarter.

Re:Did anything improve?

[LessThanObvious]

Unfortunately, parents and educators think pointing a clicking around an iPad is the same as giving students a foundation in technology. I'd like to see a vast world of resources available to teachers to stream educational content. Kids having access to the internet in the classroom is not going to provide the benefits that are assumed.

The bad news is

[Anonymous Coward]

They're going to have to replace all of them in two years when the battery stops charging. But since the school district has more money than it needs, they can afford it.

I still can't for the life of me

[bravecanadian]

figure out why they are doing this in schools... everywhere...

Why do educators and parents think that just *having* these devices will be some sort of educational silver bullet?

It is much more important to figure out where they have the best value educationally and how to then integrate those benefits into the curriculum.

They always seem to have the cart before the horse.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[GNious]

I saw an online request for help (money) to put iPads into a school (It was via Stephen Colbert's twitter).
Tweeted back the question as to why it had to be iPads, if there are notably cheaper Android tablets out there ... got a reply that they come back with a reply, and then nothing.

So far I'm mostly curious as to why it has to be this specific brand, as opposed to 100 EUR off-brand Androids, and I've yet to see anyone answer that, beyond, "but...iPad!"

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[Anonymous Coward]

apple has good salespeople. that's why.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[Anonymous Coward]

So far I'm mostly curious as to why it has to be this specific brand, as opposed to 100 EUR off-brand Androids, and I've yet to see anyone answer that, beyond, "but...iPad!"

Not just the cost of the initial device (the difference being large enough to make the choice an obvious easy one), but also what runs on it. A highly regulated tool with a limited set of pre-approved programs from a third party whose interest has nothing to do with education (apple), may be good for training, but not education. Why would you choose a platform that only can use software approved by some other entity with completely different (profit) motives than you?
Why not choose a platform where a teacher, or administrator, or someone, anyone, anywhere in the world, with an interest in education, can create, upgrade, and modify applications of their own choosing (for free)?
I don't understand how americans even like ipads. The whole apple model seems very dictatorish... only pre-approved button pushing, only pre-approved haircuts, its 10 times the cost of the libre alternatives, etc.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[Anonymous Coward]

Highly controlled ecosystem. what more do you want?
These are the same places that banned books and filter the internet.
Think of the Children!

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[SydShamino]

I presume they want something with better educational software support and higher hardware reliability. As is pointed out just a few Slashdot articles below, low-end Android stuff is crap.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[SydShamino]

Parents being more involved in their kids' education is the educational silver bullet. If this is what it takes to make that possible in this district, so be it.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[stephanruby]

I saw an online request for help (money) to put iPads into a school (It was via Stephen Colbert's twitter).
Tweeted back the question as to why it had to be iPads, if there are notably cheaper Android tablets out there ... got a reply that they come back with a reply, and then nothing.

So far I'm mostly curious as to why it has to be this specific brand, as opposed to 100 EUR off-brand Androids, and I've yet to see anyone answer that, beyond, "but...iPad!"

I'm not Stephen Colbert, therefore I'm not an authority on the matter, but here are a few reasons:

iPad is perceived to have higher quality educational apps because all the big players in educational software initially targeted the iPad (although, that part won't be true for much longer since the iPad marketshare is shrinking vs. all the other Android tablets).

Stephen Colbert has received free iPhones and free iPads. In fact, he has made a couple of satirical jokes on his show about not wanting to be blacklisted by Apple for all the goodies it gave him. These jokes probably didn't make him any friends at Apple, but I doubt they cut off his supply of free stuff because unlike the other journalists Apple blacklisted for badmouthing it, Stephen Colbert could retaliate so easily. That's what his entire persona is about.

The term iPad currently gets more eyeballs in the press (not to mention Apple has a bigger and more focused PR/branding budget, versus the fragmented PR/branding budgets that the manufacturers of Android tablets have). Also, many people still equate Android tablets with iPads.

The schools with the most newsworthy orders of iPads probably got them at a discount over and above the normal academic discount (or they got paid in other ways, perhaps the school administrators/teachers received free MacBooks, or Apple agreed to fund the school in other ways). The key for Apple is just to get the initial ball rolling. It doesn't matter if its first customers do not pay anything, or even if they have to pay them. The Return On Investments for generating news stories is generally worth it.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[issicus]

some schools have a hard on for apple .

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe Microsoft has been doing this for decades with free computers to schools. It's great PR. At least this time people actually want the devices.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[swillden]

OTOH, some of the mid-range Android stuff is quite good, and much cheaper than iPads. There may be better edu software for iOS, though, as another commenter claims.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[Belial6]

Yep, the iPad is the educational systems version of the military's $500 toilet seat.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do educators and parents think that just *having* these devices will be some sort of educational silver bullet?

Because kids are naturally curious and will teach themselves, given half a chance?

http://www.technologyreview.co...

Just sayin'.

Re: I still can't for the life of me

[Anonymous Coward]

What 'libre' alternatives?

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

No one's saying it's going to be *the* silver bullet, it's going to be *a* part of several overall solutions to various problems.

Parental engagement(Read the article, even the parents are using the kids' iPads to get feedback and know what's going on), access to the internet, etc. etc. etc.

Shockingly, when kids are given the things they need to adapt, they adapt.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[gnu-sucks]

Why does it have to be a tablet? How about hiring a scientist or an engineer to come to each class room for a few hours a week. Guarantee you'd get your mileage there.

Given how these will be used, I doubt there will be much difference except for the cost. Either way it is a complete waste.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[gnu-sucks]

Well, just sayin', maybe kids would be naturally curious about other things too?

Like, I dunno, science and math? Reading interesting books? Dropping eggs off the side of a building in various contraptions? Shooting rubber bands in a contest? Observing the weather each day? Planting stuff? Estimating quantities of items? Playing musical instruments? Drawing? Making things out of scraps of material? Exploring mathematics without a calculator and a test?

Oh, right, this stuff isn't digital, doesn't cost enough money, and requires additional effort form the teacher other than watching kids play on ipads while they play on facebook themselves.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[gnu-sucks]

You can "enterprise-deploy" iOS devices and then sign your own apps. That's what large institutions do.

The real question, android fanboys, is, WHY A FREAKING TABLET AT ALL?

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, a previous program that had given portable computers to low income families actually found them to have a negative impact on school performance.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you bother reading the article, you lackwit? OLPC project took a bunch of tablets to a remote village in Ethiopia, and just... let the kids play with them. And lo and behold, the curious kids started teaching themselves how to do all kinds of things - just by *having* these devices. And these were literally kids in mud huts who had never seen these types of devices before. Please explain to me how any of the stuff you listed can't be - at least initially - explored on a tablet with a web connection, which is what these kids are being given?

Science? holy shit, you think you might find some things to read and explore on the internet that deal with science?
Ditto math?
Reading interesting books? Project Gutenberg costs nothing, and is a few short clicks away - read on young learner!
Dropping eggs? Sure. You can even record your experiments on the device - both video, AND data.
Shooting rubber bands? You don't think there's all kinds of references that they can use to learn about potential and kinetic energy, conservation of energy, ballistic trajectories, and any other 'educational' thing you can think of related to rubber band shooting?
Observing the weather each day? Again, HOLY SHIT, you can use your iPad to record all your data, graph it, and do a hundred other interesting things with it.
Estimating quantities of items? Again, HOLY SHIT, your iPad can display random shit just as well as a textbook can, or a teacher writing shit on a chalkboard.
Playing musical instruments? There are literally professional-grade music production apps for the iPad as we speak. You can trivially learn a LOT about music just by playing around with a piano app. You can also record and produce your own music using it.
Drawing? Again - there are literally professional grade drawing apps for the iPad, that published & renowned artists are using as part of their own professional workflows. Give the kid a stylus and an app, and let them go nuts with drawing whatever they like. I wasn't aware that "drawing" absolutely required a pencil.
Making things out of scraps of material? Considering games like minecraft can be played on the iPad, I'd say there's plenty of "making things out of scraps of material potential," and you can also access multiple "diy" sites online and learn how to make your own things from other people who tinker.
Exploring mathematics without a calculator and a test? Have you SEEN some of the graphing apps available? Ever played with graphing various equations and seeing what manipulating different parts of the equation do to your graph? Think that might help kids 'explore' math in a way they literally cannot on a piece of paper?

Jesus man, what the FUCK are you doing on a tech site if you can honestly look at a fucking handheld computer with a 10" screen and say, "Yep, no benefit for educational use whatsoever, no kid will get anything out of it"? There are literally infinite educational uses for a device like this - and all you can do is bitch about how "it used to be better in the old days."

Quite seriously - what's your objection here? You seem to be imagining that these devices aren't being used in an educational fashion, and that kids are being told "Hey, kids just watch a movie on netflix, while teacher sexts her boyfriend." Haven't seen any evidence that that's the case so far - have you?

Or are you just bummed that it's an Apple computer, rather than an OLPC or an Android device? If this was an article about one of those, I guarantee that 99% of the people pooh-poohing the idea here would be tripping over their own tongues in their rush to fellate the company supplying the devices.

Seriously, get a fucking grip.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPad craze in schools seems to be driven by textbook publishers who want to turn textbooks into digital books that schools pay for every year. So they don't compete with themselves by publishing paper books which could be reused from year to year. Parents are being fed a steady diet of news about how American students are worse than any other country (be sure to notice this news in the press each year - it's been going on for my entire lifetime), so they're ready to spend. School administrators just want budget power. Everyone is happy. The reason they want iPads is because Apple provides end-to-end DRM for books.

Re:I still can't for the life of me

[GNious]

To clarify: Colbert only retweeted the request - I think the decision for iPads came from the particular school, notably from a specific teacher.

If the quality of applications (perceived quality, or actual) is higher on IOS, then the people behind it should have no problem replying that this is the case.

If there is a kickback or price-reduction in play, then that could be harder for them to explain in plenum, but if it is a public school (since asking for hand-outs), I truly hope such constructs are required to be made public; that is at least the case where I'm from.

roll out ipads?

[Charliemopps]

Roll out Ipads... this is all I could think of:
http://vimeo.com/11480457

We shall see.

[Anonymous Coward]

... they probably do have educational value...

We shall see. 20,000 ipads go for roughly $8,000,000 just for hardware.

There are some nice language learning games, math games, and other elementary school level games out there from $0.99 to $4.99 and probably more that I haven't seen.

These games do make the rote part of learning a LOT more fun and it does capture one's attention - especailly in this over stimulating electronic World of ours.

But, are these iPads better than hiring more teachers and having a lower student to teacher ratio?

And we will see if the students actually use these things for what they were intended for - not Facebooking or texting one another.

Re:We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

These games do make the rote part of learning a LOT more fun and it does capture one's attention

You make it sound like the "rote part of learning" is an inevitability, when it often is not; our education system is simply horrible. 99% of the time, rote memorization is not the right way to go about things, especially when it comes to math.

Re:We shall see.

[Anonymous Coward]

Once the student understands the conceptual basis behind a particular mathematical operation, there is often immense value in gaining fluency by memorization. Memorization, particularly in elementary mathematics, paves the way for more rapid and accurate mental computation later on.

Re:We shall see.

[jellomizer]

20,000 students with 6 text books will go roughly $12,000,000 for the books. And a lot higher percentage of these go missing, broken or damaged. As the kids are forced to lug around a bunch of books.

Re:We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

Once the student understands the conceptual basis behind a particular mathematical operation

But they never do get that understanding.

there is often immense value in gaining fluency by memorization.

I disagree. It only seeks to waste people's time on useless busywork. I couldn't stand doing 40 problems telling me to find the missing side of a triangle, so I simply didn't. It was a waste of my time, and so was school in general.

By coming to understand how and why something works, you usually memorize it naturally, anyway. This is what rote memorization drones just don't understand; drill and kill is extremely inefficient, harmful to education, and unnecessary 99% of the time.

Memorization, particularly in elementary mathematics, paves the way for more rapid and accurate mental computation

I guarantee you that the study of mathematics is not about quickly and accurately performing random calculations in your head. I also guarantee you that you do nothing but degrade education when you waste time handing out pointless busywork trying to test for exactly this to people who are either already capable of doing it, or do not need to do it. We have computers and calculators for that, and no, using a tool does not mean they don't understand anything, which is what the focus should be on anyway.

Re: We shall see.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, rote memorization has its place, especially in math. There was a paper a while back that found that kids you memorized things like their multiplication tables performed better at higher level tasks. By making low level steps reflexive, brain power was freed up to work on more complex parts of the problem.

Re: We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

Actually, rote memorization has its place

99.999% of the time, it simply doesn't.

especially in math.

I disagree.

There was a paper a while back

There's a random paper for everything, including for me. The fact that some papers exist that come to some conclusion means nothing, since they're likely just coming to arbitrary conclusions based on flawed tests. Our way of measuring proficiency is flawed to begin with, which is why I reject current tests.

that found that kids you memorized things like their multiplication tables performed better at higher level tasks.

Solving 40 multiplication problems that all ask you to do the same thing does nothing but waste your time on useless repetition. It won't magically make you understand the material any more than digging a giant hole in the ground with a spoon would; the information is simply not there.

By making low level steps reflexive, brain power was freed up to work on more complex parts of the problem.

Math is not about speed or memorizing facts, but about understanding. You're not just solving random, arbitrary problems, either. This is a poisonous mentality that is spread by awful educational systems all over the world.

Re:We shall see.

[BoberFett]

You don't actually think digital text books are free, do you?

Re: We shall see.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because learning and memorizing the formula to calculate the volume of a cylinder or a sphere or a cone was completely useless before I had learned the multi-dimensional calculus required to actually derive and understand what those formulas really meant.

I notice that you don't even respond to the fact that the GP specifically mentions multiplication tables in respect to memorization.

Re:We shall see.

[Anonymous Coward]

The summary says "only 6 were stolen or missing", nothing about broken or otherwise damaged.

Similar trials her in Denmark have reported 10-20% damaged/missing per year, though who know what it'll be in 2,3 or 5 years time.

Re: We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

Yes, because learning and memorizing the formula to calculate the volume of a cylinder or a sphere or a cone was completely useless before I had learned the multi-dimensional calculus required to actually derive and understand what those formulas really meant.

You're confusing mindlessly reciting proofs with actually having an intuitive understanding of why these things work.

I notice that you don't even respond to the fact that the GP specifically mentions multiplication tables in respect to memorization.

Multiplication tables are garbage, and I never wasted my time with them. Again, math is *not* about memorization and speed. Humans are tool-using creatures, so make use of tools for the repetitive stuff. Plus, you'll likely memorize much of the multiplication table on your own without making a specific effort to memorize it, like I did. If you don't? Well, you obviously don't need it all that much, anyway. Don't waste your time, and instead focus on true understanding.

Re: We shall see.

[Anonymous Coward]

By golly, you're right. People who want to do simple arithmatic calulations in their heads are fools. They shouldn't learn how to do simple practical things like work out the square footage of a room with a simple calcuation in their head. They should remain helplessly tethered to a calculator, because you think it's more important to barrel on to learn how to press buttons to make the useless-to-them higer math calulations (woo. that laplace function helps make them a better carpenter!) jump out of their calulators.

No, never mind. You're wrong. Fuck you.

Re: We shall see.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're the kind of stubborn motherfuckin' pedant who was born to troll on slashdot. If you're old enough, you probably helped damage usenet, too.

Thanks. foad. & hand.

Re: We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

By golly, you're right. People who want to do simple arithmatic calulations in their heads are fools.

Straw man. I never said that. Merely that mindless repetition shouldn't be forced on people, because that's not what math is about.

They shouldn't learn how to do simple practical things like work out the square footage of a room with a simple calcuation in their head.

You know, I know many people that a deep intuitive understanding of how and why more 'complex' math works, and a grand majority of them can do the things you said, even though they didn't waste their time doing all sorts of busywork like you (presumably, since you seem to be disagreeing with me) want students to have to do. It's inconceivable that having a deep understanding of the material would not also give you the ability to do such trivial tasks.

They should remain helplessly tethered to a calculator

I don't know how people could so thoroughly misunderstand what is being said here, but it happens every single time. People have been brainwashed since birth that education is all about rote memorization and repetition. While it's important to be able to retain information, we simply have far, far too much useless repetition and memorization; that's something that cannot be denied.

Re:We shall see.

[Anonymous Coward]

And according to some legal happenings recently, thanks to Apple, they aren't even cheaper.

Re:We shall see.

[qurk]

That's why I liked math a lot more then chemistry in school. In chemistry you had to memorize tons of specific terms.

Re:We shall see.

[khellendros1984]

If you expect not to be tied to a calculator for life, then there are some facts that need to be memorized. The three things that come immediately to mind: the addition/subtraction tables, multiplication/division tables, and the order of operations (i.e. PEMDAS). The concepts for each of those topics are simple, but I get daily use out of the tables that I rote-memorized in grade school.

Beyond that, I'd agree; generally, rote memorization is harmful, and when you get into real mathematics, those facts aren't as useful. I don't see math as the real reason that we teach arithmetic, though. It's useful to be at the grocery store and easily know how much you're going to be paying total if you're buying 4 items at $6.49 and 5 at $2.37. If you disagree about the purpose of memorizing those facts (for most people), or the usefulness (in daily life) of having memorized them, then I'm not going to try to convince you. Your replies sound like you're just trying to be contrary, anyhow.

Re:We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

The three things that come immediately to mind: the addition/subtraction tables, multiplication/division tables

Absolute nonsense. I never memorized multiplication tables, and yet I can do such calculations quite easily. How is this possible? Because I understand the processes of addition, subtraction, etc.

As I said many times, you only harm education by forcing this garbage on people. If they really, truly need it, it will be memorized naturally because they'll use it a lot. The idea that you have make some specific effort to memorize a bunch of tables is archaic nonsense. Math is not about speed to begin with.

Your replies sound like you're just trying to be contrary, anyhow.

My replies sound like I'm fed up with our awful education system, nonsense that's repeated again and again, and people who don't actually understand education to begin with.

Re:We shall see.

[Anonymous Coward]

No no no no no. That's NOT how it's done. Let me fix that for you:

"You do realize that digital textbooks aren't free, right?"

See the difference? The "you do realize" version is MUCH gayer. Just reading it is enough to make the reader's mouth water in anticipation of satisfying a man.

And that's what we're all here for, isn't it. To become deeper and deeper in our homosexuality and to indulge in our need for the fellowship of other men.

Re:We shall see.

[khellendros1984]

I never memorized multiplication tables, and yet I can do such calculations quite easily.

Ah, so you count addition/subtraction on your fingers and do multiplication by iteration? Or do you mean that you didn't bother to learn the operations the way that school taught you and learned them piecemeal as you needed them? If it's the first case, I'd say that you're an idiot. If it's the second, well, to each their own, but I'd say that you still rote-memorized the tables, just in a less-structured way.

In general, I agree that rote memorization doesn't lead to education in a useful sense, but you're deluding yourself if you think that it's absolutely avoidable in all cases.

Re:We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

Ah, so you count addition/subtraction on your fingers and do multiplication by iteration?

Why are these the only options? Nothing is strictly wrong with either of them, either.

You can memorize generalized patterns without memorizing entire tables, thereby saving time. You can memorize 'tricks' that allow you to multiply numbers extremely quickly. You don't have to go by some huge multiplication table or do multiplication by iteration, though it doesn't matter if you do. Just make sure you have an intuitive understanding of why it works.

If it's the first case, I'd say that you're an idiot.

I guarantee you that there are a number of mathematicians who have lots of trouble doing simple calculations, yet they are most certainly not "idiots."

but I'd say that you still rote-memorized the tables, just in a less-structured way.

That's a very important distinction. People memorize and learn at their own pace, and by forcing something on them, you don't give them a chance to do that, and possibly bore and/or frustrate them. This is but one problem with one-size-fits-all education.

but you're deluding yourself if you think that it's absolutely avoidable in all cases.

And that's a straw man. It happens every single time one of these discussions show up; someone says that the person criticizing rampant rote memorization is saying that memorization or rote memorization is always bad, even though they say no such thing.

Re: We shall see.

[MightyYar]

Plus, you'll likely memorize much of the multiplication table on your own without making a specific effort to memorize it, like I did.

Well now you have me confused. You eventually found it necessary to rote memorize the multiplication tables, yet you are arguing against rote memorization?

Re: We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

You eventually found it necessary to rote memorize the multiplication tables

Nope. Incorrect. I made no specific effort to memorize a huge table of calculations. Instead, I *naturally* memorized the results of calculations that I saw often. 8*8 = 64. I saw such things often, so I memorized them naturally. That's what I meant. There was no big rote memorization scheme involved.

yet you are arguing against rote memorization?

Yes. There's far, far, far too much rote memorization going on right now.

Re: We shall see.

[MightyYar]

There was no big rote memorization scheme involved.

So your complaint is that kids are forced to memorize what you later found you had to memorize, but using a different method. I'm still not seeing the logic. Either way, you need to have your multiplication tables memorized.

Re: We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

So your complaint is that kids are forced to memorize what you later found you had to memorize

You're straw manning me. Nowhere did I say it is *necessary*; I just said that it happened. Plenty of people don't have it memorized at all, and that's fine.

I'm still not seeing the logic.

The logic is that you shouldn't waste people's time by forcing useless rote memorization on people, thereby giving them a flawed view of education that continues for generations.

And do you think my complaints end at multiplication tables? You seem to be saying, "Aha! My misreading of your comments indicates that you think multiplication tables are necessary! Therefore, your rant about rote memorization in general has no merit whatsoever simply because it's supposedly not true about one thing in particular!" Or at least it seems that way. Otherwise, I really can't see why you can't see the logic, since the discussion isn't just about multiplication tables, anyway.

Either way, you need to have your multiplication tables memorized.

No, it's not necessary. To claim that it's necessary is simply absurd and defies all logic.

Re: We shall see.

[MightyYar]

Plenty of people don't have it memorized at all, and that's fine.

It's fine in the same way that it is fine to not know your state's capital. You can live without the knowledge, but if you can't even figure out what 30% off is at the mall, that's pretty pathetic.

useless rote memorization on people

Some memorization is indeed useless, and I agree that I hate it. But that doesn't mean that ALL rote memorization is bad. Addition, subtraction, multiplication are all essential life skills for anyone who ever deals with money - which is everyone.

And do you think my complaints end at multiplication tables?

No, but I do think it has a whiff of extremism: ALL rote memorization is bad. I think that is as absurd as basing all education on rote learning. I and the other poster mentioned multiplication tables because they are such an obvious example of rote learning. Your average 8 year old can memorize the table to 9 or 12 in a week or two. At that point, reinforcement and they are set for life. Sure, it's no fun - but this isn't about discovery, this is about making your brain a shitty pocket calculator... there's nothing fun about that.

No, it's not necessary. To claim that it's necessary is simply absurd and defies all logic.

What functional adult in modern society does not need to calculate percentages? I have to admit that I find your argument slightly amusing.

Re: We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

but if you can't even figure out what 30% off is at the mall, that's pretty pathetic.

I don't see why you're assuming that. You don't need to memorize a huge table of calculations in order to figure out what 30% off is. Are you sure you understand what is being talked about here?

Some memorization is indeed useless, and I agree that I hate it. But that doesn't mean that ALL rote memorization is bad. Addition, subtraction, multiplication are all essential life skills for anyone who ever deals with money - which is everyone.

Your problem is that you think rote memorization is all there is to it; that couldn't be further from the truth.

And as I said elsewhere, "And that's a straw man. It happens every single time one of these discussions show up; someone says that the person criticizing rampant rote memorization is saying that memorization or rote memorization is always bad, even though they say no such thing."

Your average 8 year old can memorize the table to 9 or 12 in a week or two.

And they can also learn about how and why multiplication works, rather than memorizing specific results in a table. Or they can even memorize (Yes, memorize; if that seems odd to you, it's because you've been misinterpreting all my comments.) generalized 'tricks' that allow them to do calculations that fall outside of the multiplication table quickly.

What functional adult in modern society does not need to calculate percentages?

Sadly, I can think of a number who don't and can't. But they're still functional.

But, what's truly slightly amusing is that you think that if you don't have the results of random calculations memorized, you're unable to do math. That's utterly preposterous. I assure you that there are very intelligent mathematicians (a few said as much in other Slashdot articles) that have trouble doing even 'simple' calculations, and yet they're also very functional. They have a deep, intuitive understanding of why the math works, and don't just mindlessly memorize tables so they can know the answer to a calculation more quickly.

I reject the thinking that making a specific effort to memorize the multiplication tables is by any means necessary or even all that helpful, and no, that doesn't mean that someone won't be able to do or understand mathematics; that's just completely insane, and I have no idea how someone could come to such a huge misunderstanding. I don't know where this misunderstanding comes from or how someone could think that memorizing results is the only way to do math or calculate percentages, but it needs to vanish.

Re: We shall see.

[MightyYar]

You don't need to memorize a huge table of calculations in order to figure out what 30% off is.

Yes, you do. Unless you want to take an inordinate amount of time or whip out a calculator. You need to have at least up to 10x10 memorized if you want to do even quick and dirty estimates.

that doesn't mean that someone won't be able to do or understand mathematics; that's just completely insane, and I have no idea how someone could come to such a huge misunderstanding.

I never made such a statement. You could do 3x6 = 6+6+6 every single time and still understand how it all works. You'll stand there in the grocery store like a retard, but you'll eventually get it done.

Re: We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

Unless you want to take an inordinate amount of time or whip out a calculator. You need to have at least up to 10x10 memorized if you want to do even quick and dirty estimates.

All I can say is, "Wow." I know this isn't true, because I sure as hell don't have most of the table memorized. I have other things memorized, like general patterns and tricks that work for practically any number; I'm not confined by some table, and I can figure things out pretty quickly. I'm not actually against retaining information; just the act of forcing unnecessary rote memorization onto people as some sort of one-size-fits-all 'solution' that will only serve to make them hate a subject and get the wrong idea about what education and understanding are. If someone wants to memorize a fixed-size table of calculations just so they can solve trivial problems slightly more quickly, then fine. But that's their choice.

But I would say that using a calculator really doesn't take that much time, and you definitely don't need to memorize some table to do quick and dirty estimates.

I never made such a statement.

You did, and then you did it again right in that comment. "Yes, you do." Before, you said that you couldn't figure what 30% off is without memorizing some table, as if your ability to do math hinges on whether or not you memorize the results of calculations.

You'll stand there in the grocery store like a retard, but you'll eventually get it done.

I know there are some people who are quite slow at this, and I know there are some people who have an absolutely terrible memory (they can't even remember the damn table anyway). I guarantee that the table isn't the only way to do these trivial problems quickly, if that's what you care about. The importance of the multiplication table is severely overestimated.

Re: We shall see.

[MightyYar]

I'm gonna double quote you here:

I know this isn't true, because I sure as hell don't have most of the table memorized.

Earlier:

I made no specific effort to memorize a huge table of calculations. Instead, I *naturally* memorized the results of calculations that I saw often. 8*8 = 64. I saw such things often, so I memorized them naturally.

So do you have 8*8 memorized or don't you? I find it hard to fathom how you could see 8*7 and not immediately think "56". Can you provide an example of your thought process? That would allow me to understand what you are suggesting as an alternative and allow me to consider that my kids would be better off having that instead.

But that's their choice.

As kids get older, sure, they make more and more choices. But at the age of 8 when they learn multiplication tables, they have very few choices. The need to learn how to read, full stop. They need to learn basic arithmetic, full stop. These are essential life skills - as critical as learning about appropriate social interaction.

But I would say that using a calculator really doesn't take that much time

If you need a calculator to do 30% off, then I feel sad for our public education system. This is the reason that grocery stores get away with selling larger bottles for a higher price per ounce than the smaller bottles. Liquid Tide, I'm looking at you... If everyone spent 2 weeks rote memorizing these allegedly pointless tables when they were 8, we wouldn't have such shenanigans.

Re: We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

So do you have 8*8 memorized or don't you?

I have 8*8 memorized because it happened to come up often for me. I have a few other such calculations memorized as well, but definitely not all.

Can you provide an example of your thought process?

They are simple tricks or observations, and one trick is obviously to just memorize the results of various calculations from a table. Some include moving the decimal point depending on what power of 10 you're working with, taking off trailing zeros and adding them back on later, or splitting up the problem into parts and then adding it all up at the end. There are many, and all of them are pretty obvious. I guess you could be even faster if you memorized some results from a table, if you care about that.

I don't claim to be the fastest, or faster than people who have huge tables of results perfectly memorized, but I certainly don't stand around in the grocery store like a retard.

They need to learn basic arithmetic, full stop.

Understanding basic arithmetic is different from rote memorization. There are many ways to go about it that don't involve a table.

If you need a calculator to do 30% off, then I feel sad for our public education system.

Are you talking about me, or people in general? I just said that using a calculator does not take that much time, not that I can't calculate 30% off; I can.

Besides, the public education system is completely abysmal for other reasons. And yes, many people don't *understand* percentages, but not due to the lack of any shitty multiplication table memorization game; it's due to the complete lack of focus on trying to give people intuitive understanding of how and why it all works. They're taught in a way that is basically, "Do this, this, and this, and you'll get the right answer." They won't say that directly, and they'll try to butter it up so they give the appearance that they're not teaching that way, but that is, in reality, what happens.

If everyone spent 2 weeks rote memorizing these allegedly pointless tables when they were 8, we wouldn't have such shenanigans.

They had that when I was in school, and even well before that, and many schools even have it now. Most people just forget things they don't see often, like I did. The people you speak of would be doomed either way, since they probably completely lack the desire to understand things, or don't even realize how many things they don't understand.

Re: We shall see.

[MightyYar]

but I certainly don't stand around in the grocery store like a retard.

It sounds like you have at least the entire table memorized through 9x9. I think some schools go to 12x12, but that is a minor detail.

Re: We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

It sounds like you have at least the entire table memorized through 9x9.

As surprising as it may sound to you, I actually don't. I have some memorized, and that helps me find out the answers to ones I don't quickly, but that is all. My school went up to 20x20 at the time, but again, I forgot a grand majority of the ones I didn't see often, and forgot some I later started seeing often and then memorized them again naturally.

Re:We shall see.

[JimFive]

Math is not about speed to begin with.

It is when you have maybe 45 minutes a day to teach it and you have to give timed tests. Memorization of the addition and multiplication tables is not done just for its own sake; it is done to facilitate later learning. It is done so that in classes such as algebra the teachers can skip a couple of details and still expect the students to follow along. It's done because dealing with big numbers is easier if you already know the answers for small numbers without having to calculate it out every time.
--
JimFive

Re:We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

It is when you have maybe 45 minutes a day to teach it and you have to give timed tests.

Did you know that current tests are absolute garbage and are part of the reason the education system itself is abysmal? Maybe you should get rid of your abysmal tests that don't truly test for anything of note.

Memorization of the addition and multiplication tables is not done just for its own sake; it is done to facilitate later learning.

Pretty strange, because I never truly memorized the table and yet I understand math far better than the other students, and was learning calculus while the others were still on algebra, not bothering to do the useless busywork. Understood. Not just memorized facts.

It is done so that in classes such as algebra the teachers can skip a couple of details and still expect the students to follow along.

It's absolutely ridiculous to say that someone cannot follow along in a fucking algebra class if they don't memorize the results of calculations in a table. I have a feeling you don't really care about understanding at all.

It's done because dealing with big numbers is easier if you already know the answers for small numbers without having to calculate it out every time.

Dealing with big numbers is easier if you make a few simple observations and understand multiplication and addition. Besides that, I bet you're the sort that doesn't believe that humans are tool-using creatures, and everything should be done in one's head. There are a few mathematicians who have trouble doing basic calculations, and yet they understand math far more than most others. Math is about understanding, not speed. But saying otherwise, you are helping to keep our education system abysmal.

Re:We shall see.

[JimFive]

Did you know that current tests are absolute garbage and are part of the reason the education system itself is abysmal?

You're talking about standardized tests, I'm referring to in classroom tests.

I never truly memorized the table and yet I understand math

You are being disingenuous. If you know 9x6 without thinking about the answer then you have memorized it, whether you ever filled out a grid with the answers is irrelevant to whether you have memorized the material.

It's absolutely ridiculous to say that someone cannot follow along in a fucking algebra class if they don't memorize the results of calculations

If the teacher is demonstrating a problem, e.g. 6x-27 = 15 and for the next step writes 6x=42 it is surely easier for the student to follow along if they can quickly see that 27+15 = 42 without having to write it out and calculate it.

tool-using creatures

You can't gain understanding if you fall back on a calculator for basic knowledge. Now, whether you think it is valuable to be able to do long division it is practically impossible if you don't know single digit multiplication. A student who knows the multiplication table will be able to complete a quiz on division while the student who doesn't, won't. I'm not saying that students should never use calculators, I'm saying that learning the basic material is important and until you've learned it a calculator is a hindrance.

As an aside, they don't seem to actually teach it as a table any longer, which is good because learning them as separate facts prevents relying on the patterns of the table format.
--
JimFive

Re:We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

You're talking about standardized tests, I'm referring to in classroom tests.

Which are almost always equally as bad.

If you know 9x6

I actually don't. I had to think about it for a split second.

If the teacher is demonstrating a problem, e.g. 6x-27 = 15 and for the next step writes 6x=42 it is surely easier for the student to follow along if they can quickly see that 27+15 = 42 without having to write it out and calculate it.

The problem is that people are forced to solve arbitrary problems that have no basis in reality whatsoever far too often, and as a result, understanding suffers. I don't buy your logic that because someone has to think about it for a second, then they suddenly won't know what's going on.

And again, you think memorizing the results of calculations is the only way to find the answer quickly. Nonsense, I say. Understanding the process of multiplication and addition helps you make many observations that make finding the answer quicker without having to memorize results.

You can't gain understanding if you fall back on a calculator for basic knowledge.

Nonsense. You clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Using a tool often does not mean you don't understand how and why multiplication works.

A student who knows the multiplication table will be able to complete a quiz on division while the student who doesn't, won't.

Again, nonsense. That doesn't even make sense. It's clear to me that you were 'taught' using the multiplication table so you know of no other methods to quickly get the answer, and you think that people who rationally use calculators (Read: that doesn't mean they weren't taught to understand the math) to save time can't do math themselves. Nonsense, all of it.

I'm saying that learning the basic material is important and until you've learned it a calculator is a hindrance.

The basic material is important. Memorizing a table or results, however, not so much; at most, that just makes some things faster. At worst (the current situation), it helps instill a sense that education is all about memorization and math is all about speed.

Re:We shall see.

[JimFive]

If you know 9x6

I actually don't. I had to think about it for a split second.

Sure and what did you think? You certainly didn't think 9+9 is 18 and 18+9 is 27 and 27+9 is 36 and 36+9 is 45 and 45+9 is 54, which is what you get from "an understanding of multiplication" without having any memorized answers. You seem to believe that you haven't memorized these things but if you are not counting on your fingers to add numbers together then you HAVE memorized these things, and you probably memorized them so long ago that you can't remember not knowing them. Certainly, there are tricks that make mental math easier, but those tricks still rely on you having memorized a sufficient set of single digit addition and multiplication problems.

I don't buy your logic that because someone has to think about it for a second, then they suddenly won't know what's going on.

It's not a second. If it's a second then they have enough stuff memorized to do the arithmetic. It seems that you've never worked with a student struggling with basic arithmetic such that it takes them 15-30 seconds to do 15+27, if they do it all without giving up. By that time the teacher is on a different problem and the student is falling further behind.

Using a tool often does not mean you don't understand how and why multiplication works.

Using a calculator before you understand how and why multiplication works means that you are likely to never understand. You seem to be under the impression that memorizing of tables is used in place of teaching how the operations work. Children are taught to add using tokens on a desk, dots on a line, and marks on a page, then they are pushed to memorize the single digit answers. Multiplication, similarly, starts with making rectangles of tokens and then moves onto paper before memorization of the answers.

The basic material is important. Memorizing a table or results, however, not so much

In arithmetic the only thing more basic than single digit addition is the numbers themselves.

The problem with rote learning is not in the memorization of simple arithmetic facts. The problem with rote learning in mathematics comes when you start doing mathematics instead of arithmetic.
--
JimFive

Re:We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

which is what you get from "an understanding of multiplication" without having any memorized answers.

Nope.

You seem to believe that you haven't memorized these things but if you are not counting on your fingers to add numbers together then you HAVE memorized these things

I seem to believe that I didn't memorize a multiplication table, which is true. Stop telling me what I think, or I'll have to start doing the same to you.

I used other tricks to make multiplication more quick, which does involve retaining information, but I have no problem with that to begin with. "They are simple tricks or observations, and one trick is obviously to just memorize the results of various calculations from a table. Some include moving the decimal point depending on what power of 10 you're working with, taking off trailing zeros and adding them back on later, or splitting up the problem into parts and then adding it all up at the end. There are many, and all of them are pretty obvious. I guess you could be even faster if you memorized some results from a table, if you care about that."

I do not know a grand majority of the multiplication table, and I didn't use that here.

but those tricks still rely on you having memorized a sufficient set of single digit addition and multiplication problems.

I could see addition, but I do not know that multiplication table garbage.

It's not a second. If it's a second then they have enough stuff memorized to do the arithmetic. It seems that you've never worked with a student struggling with basic arithmetic such that it takes them 15-30 seconds to do 15+27

It seems you've never worked with someone who can do math quickly without memorizing a multiplication table.

You seem to be under the impression that memorizing of tables is used in place of teaching how the operations work.

They are. I saw it in action myself. The 'teaching' methods you describe don't go into the full picture at all.

The problem with rote learning in mathematics comes when you start doing mathematics instead of arithmetic.

The problem with rote learning is that it shouldn't exist in 99% of cases. The multiplication table is one such case.

Stop trying to push your one-size-fits-all solution onto others, and stop telling *me* what my thought process is.

Re:We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

If you look elsewhere, I do not deny that I have certain results (8x8) memorized, but far from even a whole 9x9 table. We definitely had that multiplication table nonsense when I was in school. The result was that most people forgot most of them and ended up having to calculate them manually. Later, years after I left our abysmal public education system, I memorized certain results that I started seeing often (8x8) *naturally*. That means I made no specific effort to memorize anything; it just happened.

And that's really what some people prefer. Let people do things their own way, rather than shoving rote memorization down people's throats. There are certain schools devoted to this sort of thinking, but they're obviously sure as hell not our awful public (or even most terrible private) schools. And if you think doing arithmetic slowly is a problem that keeps people back from understanding algebra and other math, you'll likely never understand the real problems. Not understanding how and why addition, multiplication, etc. work can hold people back, but most people don't understand any of it anyway. It has very little to do with memorizing tables.

Re:We shall see.

[JimFive]

So, when you do the problem 7*8 what is your thought process?

You seem to be hung up on the idea of a literal table of math problems, while I think I've been pretty clear that I'm referring to a figurative table that is the collection of 45 single digit problems that make up the basics of symbolic arithmetic manipulation. And, I think it is safe to say that you have a significant number of them memorized.

Re:We shall see.

[JimFive]

We definitely had that multiplication table nonsense when I was in school. The result was that most people forgot most of them and ended up having to calculate them manually.

Seriously? You think that MOST people in your class forgot single-digit multiplications (even as they continued to use them daily) and started counting on their fingers (or drawing dots on paper)? Because that's what "calculate them manually" means, doing it by hand. There are 3 ways to do single digit multiplication: memorize, count, or restate the problem into problems that you have already memorized. Restating requires that you have a sufficient number of the problems memorized for it to work.

They are. I saw it in action myself. The 'teaching' methods you describe don't go into the full picture at all.

The teaching methods I describe are first grade and addition/multiplication using tokens is a perfect example of what those operations actually are and quite helpful in moving from physical manipulation to the symbolic manipulation of arithmetic. If you think that there is more to either of those operations than can be shown by an array of stones on a table then please, enlighten me. That grid of tokens can show commutation, distribution, association, primality, squareness, divisibility, etc. Moving that physical representation to a symbolic system is what arithmetic in lower elementary is about. I submit that knowing the answer to those 45 problems without having to spend time figuring them out every time is useful to the student and everyone who has ever complained about cashiers being unable to make change agrees with me.
--
JimFive

Re:We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

So, when you do the problem 7*8 what is your thought process?

Any number of things, depending on which is easiest. I know 8*8, so I may just use that result and subtract 8. Sometimes I'll multiply by a power of 10 and then subtract or add as necessary. Sometimes I'll multiply by 10 and half the result and subtract/add as necessary. It just depends on what is fastest for me, and I can do all of it fairly quickly.

But I know mathematicians that have a deep understanding of the more complex math, and yet can barely do basic math problems.

You seem to be hung up on the idea of a literal table of math problems

Multiplication tables are what is being discussed, and yes, they usually are memorized in such a way. Yes, what I am speaking of is literally looking at a table, or something similar, and memorizing the results. I don't really care for being forced to memorize a bunch of results, and nor do I care for doing busywork containing problems that have absolutely no basis in reality.

Re:We shall see.

[jeIIomizer]

Because that's what "calculate them manually" means

In the context of multiplication tables, it means doing something like "8... 16... 24... 32... 40..." until the answer is found.

You think that MOST people in your class forgot single-digit multiplications

They did, and so did I.

and everyone who has ever complained about cashiers being unable to make change agrees with me.

Everyone? Well, I don't. Therefore, that statement is false. I think something else is lacking, and that's an understanding of the process itself.

cloud based systems suck bandwidth big time

[Joe_Dragon]

cloud based systems suck bandwidth big time.

Schools with laptops / desktops don't seem to have this much of a bandwidth issue?

Re:cloud based systems suck bandwidth big time

[ruir]

How about blocking youtube during regular office hours, opening it up only in the morning lunch time and at the end of the time? It is probably more due to streaming movies than apps.

Coachella Valley

[Anonymous Coward]

They have a nice carrot festival, if you can get there (assuming you don't take a left turn at Albuquerque).

Good for nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

Kids don't read books
Kids don't write lessons
Teaching and evaluation is replaced by online code
Everyone seems to be happy to have an iPad.

The only good thing out of this is corporate welfare.

But will they throttle netflix?

[Anonymous Coward]

If not, then we should support them! If they will, I hope they burn in hell, with their children.

Completly Blindsided.

[gregsmac]

That is my favorite part. How could you not foresee 20,000 devices coming online affecting bandwidth? What is you and your teams job exactly?

Re:Completly Blindsided.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because connectivity is magical?

Re:Completly Blindsided.

[SydShamino]

From the article, it sounds like CVUSD isn't an independent organization. The school districts where you live might be structured differently, so this might not be apparent to you.

In Texas, school districts are independent entities (ISDs) with their own taxing authority. The ISD owns the land and runs the schools. Board members are elected.

In Louisiana, where I lived for a while a long time ago, the parishes run the schools. There's a school board, whose members are IIRC appointed by the county commissioners, good ol' boy style. The schools have no tax authority and have to go to the parish for money or infrastructure requests.

It sounds like California organizes school districts more like the latter than the former, though a given county might have multiple districts instead of just one as in Louisiana parishes. The article describes the county limiting bandwidth use by CVUSD, something impossible to happen in Texas as the county has no authority over the ISD.

Likewise, and to your point, the article says that the county encouraged CVUSD to deploy the iPads, and from that CVUSD assumed the county had enough bandwidth to manage this. I guess that means the county is the district's ISP, and the district isn't allowed to change ISPs or contract with a private ISP. And the county IT maybe didn't know the district was going to do this, so they couldn't point it out and try to get a bigger pipe at that level. So they didn't see the problem because bureaucracy.

Re:Completly Blindsided.

[TheSync]

From the article, it sounds like CVUSD isn't an independent organization.

CVUSD is an independent organization. It put "Measure X" on the ballot in 2012 to raise $41 million for iPads. 66% voted "Yes".

CVUSD board members are elected, including Juanita Duarte, a three-term board member who is facing trial on charges of embezzlement, and Anna Lisa Vargas, a soft-spoken freshman board member who was targeted by a recall effort last year.

CVUSD is also laying off 147 workers including pre-school teachers to avoid bankruptcy.

Re:Completly Blindsided.

[gnu-sucks]

And now they want to become an ISP? Hmm...

Teach kids stuff: fail
Deploy iPads: fail ...
Become ISP? FAIL

Re:Completly Blindsided.

[Bacon Bits]

The school district wasn't blindsided. The county was.

I work at a school district, so let me tell you how public schools get their Internet. Obviously it's going to vary, but from what I've seen our situation is the most common.

Every building in a district runs fiber between their buildings to a central building where the district's servers are kept. It could be in the basement of the high school or some administrative building, but that's what happens. It's easy enough for the district to do capacity planning. Each school district may then connect to an intermediate school district, but ultimately then connects to the county's municipal network. This network is the ISP that connects every municipal office, such as city, village, police, fire, public works, etc. to the Internet. In my state, Michigan, the county connects to a statewide municipal network originally put in place to connect the public universities to the proto-Internet for research (our ISP, Merit, was founded in 1966).

In this story, the problem is at the county level, the middle man between the school and the state-wide network. This is not particularly surprising, since since in every case I've seen, the county is a) poorly funded, b) poorly staffed, and c) tends to be forgotten about. When a neighboring district went 1-to-1 at the high school level with lots of online classes, they did reasonable capacity planning for the district's small network and quadrupled the bandwidth from the high school to the district servers, and the district to the county (the district consists of 3 buildings on the same plot of land, so it was fairly simple). What they didn't do was consider that the county level needed upgrades as well. My district is about 8500 students across more than a dozen buildings, and this was about 200 students in just one building (grades 9 and 10). They were using about 90% of the bandwidth on our connection. That district got moved to a different connection pretty quickly, but until then nobody in our district could use the Internet during the school day.

also battery life after 2-3 years will start to go

[Joe_Dragon]

also battery life after 2-3 years will start to go down as well.

Indoctrination

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope Apple are at least paying the district a decent amount to get all those kids using their product....

Re:Mission creep... ONLY pencils!

[mspohr]

School districts should be limited to pencils only... and, er, maybe paper... and, er, chalk... and, er, ... OMG!! Where does it end!!!

Outcomes?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure the story is fascinating from a project management/process point of view; but are there convincing preliminary data from smaller scale studies that show measurable improvement in educational outcomes? If I were holding the purse strings on a project this large, I would want to see data from randomized controlled trials comparing iPad-assisted learning to standard practice.

Furthermore, are there data that suggest that *any* measurable differences between low and high socioeconomic status students can be equalized by giving students iPads? Most school districts who implement these sorts of programs do so with the promise of technological egalitarianism; but does putting an iPad in the hands of low income students actually do anything to equalize educational measures such as test scores, etc?

ISP = can't filter?

[Joe_Dragon]

If they be come an ISP will they be forced to drop any web filters? Must drop them on request?

No forcing software lock downs or patch levels / OS limits to get on line?

Re:ISP = can't filter?

[Anonymous Coward]

On District provided equipment, for student access, the filtering is federally mandated through hand out programs like Erate, it turns into a slippery slope when a public entity like a school district (K-12) talks about becoming an "ISP" in fact I'm pretty much sure they misused the term ISP and instead were instead just thinking of switching off the Riverside county office of education's internet access pipe and going through a private provider, this can be the only reason to explain why the excess of traffic from them was affecting other school districts. Its just another technology director that doesn't know exactly what they are talking about and misusing terms.

Re:ISP = can't filter?

[Penguinisto]

I doubt it - it will be treated a lot like a corporate network does now viz. remote/VPN/BYOD connectivity; you sign a consent form, and if you use their bandwidth, you agree to their terms.

Turned down on religious grounds?

[statemachine]

"The only students at the school sans iPad, Dr. Adams says, are a very small number who turned it down on religious grounds."

Who would turn down a free iPad?

Re:Turned down on religious grounds?

[jeIIomizer]

I would, because it's proprietary junk.

Re:Turned down on religious grounds?

[SydShamino]

Amish?

Wrong headline

[dskoll]

"How one school district threw millions of dollars down the drain"

Ooh, shiny.... must be useful for educational purposes....

Turned down on religious grounds?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The only students at the school sans iPad, Dr. Adams says, are a very small number who turned it down on religious grounds."

Who would turn down a free iPad?

Parents who are sufficiently paranoid about their children seeing porn or religious/scientific thought counter to their own dogma.

And, more legitimately, the Amish and Mennonites.

meh.

[JustNiz]

The school my 9 year old son is at is pushing for parents to donate so they can buy iPads too.

Given iPads are like $400-500 each and a good Android tablet is maybe $150 (and also has access to a lot more useful free software than iPads do), this kind of crap makes it obvious that the education sector is at least very badly managed and more likely very corrupt. I'll bet that someone high up in the education department is getting a very nice fat kickback from Apple.

Just because of this locked-in pro-Apple money wasting mentality I refuse to donate or vote for the very populist local props in my area that want to raise our taxes to give more money to supposedly underfunded schools. Its already very clear that all they are all planning to do with any extra money is blow it on yet more overpriced Apple products.

I'm also having a hard time understanding why a 9 year old kid needs an ipad at school in the first place at all. After talking to the principal and class teachers at my sons school its very clear that they think that ipads in the classroom are somehow a self-evidently good thing, and have no solid justification other than "because tech===future". They are clearly just throwing iPads at kids and hoping something good will come of it, rather than the iPad actually being a necessary tool and part of a larger well-considered strategy with already tested/proven benefits.

I'm sure most kids would say they need an iPad too but if my 9 year old son is anything to go by, at least 99% of them secretly just want it only for gaming or as some kind of trendy fashion accessory.

See I've been there myself. I remember back in the 70's when I was a kid, the excuse/lie that a PC would help with homework was the standard and accepted way by me and all my friends.of getting a new gaming machine.

As such I believe that the onus still lies with the schools to show that iPads in the classroom are not actually just another distraction that comes between the student and the teacher. Assuming they can do that, then they still need to show some real justification why 3x $150 Android pads is worse than 1 $450 iPad with respect to actual benefit in the classroom.

Re:meh.

[TheSync]

Given iPads are like $400-500 each

A used iPad1 can be had for $100-$150.

Of course, I'd be more up for purchasing these if the particular school district did a randomized test of their effectiveness.

Re:meh.

[David_Hart]

The school my 9 year old son is at is pushing for parents to donate so they can buy iPads too.

Given iPads are like $400-500 each and a good Android tablet is maybe $150 (and also has access to a lot more useful free software than iPads do), this kind of crap makes it obvious that the education sector is at least very badly managed and more likely very corrupt. I'll bet that someone high up in the education department is getting a very nice fat kickback from Apple.

Just because of this locked-in pro-Apple money wasting mentality I refuse to donate or vote for the very populist local props in my area that want to raise our taxes to give more money to supposedly underfunded schools. Its already very clear that all they are all planning to do with any extra money is blow it on yet more overpriced Apple products.

This reminds me of the 80's when a lot of Elementary and Middle schools bought Apple II and III computers and the obligatory 2 to 3 Macs. Apple had a big push to capture the educational market. After about 3 years, most of the Apple computers ended up in closets collecting dust. Universities and High Schools went with PCs and the education software market followed. In my opinion, history is about to repeat itself....

Re:meh.

[SecurityGuy]

I don't think it's corruption, necessarily. Some people are just rabidly pro-Apple. Some people don't (yet) get that technology isn't an education silver bullet. When you get people who think technology is a silver bullet AND love Apple products, you get things like this.

Re:meh.

[Anonymous Coward]

So you think the school should try to source 20,000 used ipad1's?

Oh, you were just posting an unrelated factoid?

Re:meh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever hear of the Khan Academy? Ever hear of MOOCs?

I cannot comment on either your school district or your son. However I've heard some pretty good things about Khan, in actual schools, from both teachers and students. The early days of computers in schools were admittedly pretty chaotic and poorly thought out. It need not be that way today.

As for the argument that "tech===future", well actually that's true. It has always struck me that there's learning, and there's learning with technology. If tech is incorporated into the background, as a pervasive helper and enabler, then the students are learning 2 things at once. This is both appropriate and fits well with the life these students are likely to live in the future. One mistake made all too often in the past was to learn tech as a distinct thing, and in particular to teach programming to all students. That was poorly spent time; programming is a specialty and a career choice.

Get good teachers and a good curriculum. If you've got that then tech can come in quietly and make a helpful contribution.

Re:meh.

[aXis100]

Some private schools in Australia are focing parents to buy iPads, plus an insurance plan, plus the maintenance plan, at a cost approching AU$1000 ($US900). And if you break it or lose it in one of several commons ways that kids love to break and lose things, the insurance wont cover it! Hilarious!

Re:meh.

[brantondaveperson]

Not an argument pro or anti Apple per se, but standardising on a device means less time spent working out how to set up each device and worrying about app compatibility, and more time spent actually teaching. And a 'good' Android device that's robust enough to handle kids pugging in the USB charger (for instance...) isn't all that much cheaper than an iPad. In actual fact, I don't even know of one that's as solid as the iPad is.

Now, the role of eduction is the debate that's worth having here - Apple v.s Google is a distraction - is having these types of devices in schools a good thing? And if it is, exactly how ought it to be used? Hard questions - and ones that we're only now starting to look at. Ubiquitous tablet computing is very new - but it's not going away and we do need to teach our children how to use it well.

Re:meh.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll bet that someone high up in the education department is getting a very nice fat kickback from Apple.

My money is on someone high up bought their own iPad and thought the best way to get it to work with the network is to force it on every student.

Re:meh.

[JustNiz]

>> Ubiquitous tablet computing is very new - but it's not going away and we do need to teach our children how to use it well.

Thats like saying we need to have lessons on teaching kids how to operate a phone or a microwave. How to use a pad takes about 5 minutes for a moderately intelligent adult to work out, and about 30 seconds for the average kid. Its easily just one of the things you learn just by being alive these days.

Re:meh.

[JustNiz]

>> Not an argument pro or anti Apple per se, but standardising on a device means less time spent working out how to set up each device and worrying about app compatibility,

I can certainly see the wisdom in that, but the question is why would a supposedly strapped-for-cash organization pick the most expensive (by far) tablet out there that is also arguably functionally inferior, with more locked-in and expensive apps, and less flexible than many much cheaper (android) pads? It seems so badly ill-considered to even be reasonable to think it could be blatant corruption, especially knowing that literally millions of pad purchases hang on that decision, and that for even reasonably well off parents, $400 is still a very non-trivial sum to find.

Re:meh.

[high_rolla]

I know it's fun to hate on Apple but in this particular situation I actually believe they made the right choice going with Apple. Just to give my background, I'm an educator at university level but help manage the IT for a local high school so I appreciate the educational effects of the technology but also the management behind the scenes.

First off, students (and teachers) don't look after technology. Especially when it is not theirs personally (ie bought with their own cash). Our experience has shown the Apple products hold up much better to abuse over time than the $150 Android tablets you mention. There is also a larger (and in our opinion, better) selection of rugged cases available to further protect them. After a few years of abuse the iPad is still working (though covered in scratches), the Androids are largely broken messes.

Apple devices also have a good history of recieving OS updates. Sure they slow down over time but you don't have to apply the updates if you don't want. We find that applying updates for the first 2 years after purchase is beneficial but after that we test before deciding to update or not. With Android you have no idea how long (if at all) the vendor will support with updates.

So from a monetary point of view the total cost of owership (and experience) is actually better (for us in our opinion and situation) over many abused devices over a 3 year lifespan. We are keeping an eye on things though and Android/ Android vendors are definitely improving and closing the gap. If our opinion changes down the track we'll happily switch over.

In terms of software/ apps. Couldn't care less which has the largest app store etc. Only care which has the most useful apps/ software for our purposes and again Apple wins here (in our opinion).

In terms of educational value, again I believe this is a big picture, long term proposition. Like any technology, the value is not in it itself, it's in how it's used. And like any other technology, it's going to take a while for our understanding of it's best use to evolve and mature. Of course it's not going to have immediate and obvious benefits straight away but you have to go through this learning stage to get there. You can't just magically jump straight to the benefits stage. The normal teachers are just using them as glorified text books right now but they are also getting used to them and how they work and how to manage a class with them. The innovative teachers (and students) are experimenting and learning and doing fantastic things with them. Over time that will filter down to the rest.

Also, I hate it when people judge the value of something based on if it improves exam marks of not. Exam marks are worth didly squat once you get out into the real world and we're focusing way too much on them as opposed to the the skills you really need out in the real world. Technology, applied thoughtfully, can help students develop many skills such as problem solving and creativity and team work and understanding how and why to be socially responsible etc and these are skills which are hard to measure and we largely ignore as a result.

Re:meh.

[JustNiz]

Thanks for taking the time to reply in detail. its especially useful as a concerned parent to see the other side of the coin.

I really wasn't aware that ipads were so physically rugged compared to most Android pads. Given that cases are also available for most android tablets, and the approximately 3 android pads to 1 iPad purchase (and therefore replacement) cost ratio, I'm still not really convinced that the iPads increased ruggedness over any/all other Android pads is really as much of a justifiable argument for iPads in schools as you suggest.

I also still think Apple (or Microsoft) is the wrong way to go a a de-facto standard in educational computing tools because vendor-lockin means unavoidably brainwashing kids with the idea that the entirety of computing is only one corporations products. This is an especially bad thing to do when other more open, relatively brand-agnostic and still approximately functionally equal options do exist.

Also I really don't like the idea that this is all still an experiment to see if pads in the classroom are really a good/bad thing or not. My kid's education and therefore his entire adult life is directly at stake here, and there is no chance of a do-over if pads do turn out to be a bad idea.

I myself was similarly permanently fucked in the 1970's by the introduction of an experimental math program called SMP during my critical years at school. After a couple of years it was generally accepted that SMP was a massive cock-up and math teaching goet very quickly reverted back to the classical style, but it was too late for a whole generation of English kids upon which the damage had already been done.

COnsequently If there's still any doubt at all that pads might not be the best approach in school, I'd strongly prefer we take the low-risk option and stay with a traditional method (books etc) that we already know from centuries of experience works well enough.

Re:meh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Given iPads are like $400-500 each

A used iPad1 can be had for $100-$150.

Of course, I'd be more up for purchasing these if the particular school district did a randomized test of their effectiveness.

They're not buying the first generation of ipads, durrr.

1. they have rotten batteries and no longer hold proper charge, resulting in expensive replacement services being required.
2. they cannot be updated and have obsolete OSes preventing new applications from being installed.
3. have you ever tried buying 20,000 units of something pre-owned?

For an old-timer /. user, you sure do spout some shit, therefore you must be an Apple shill.

Re:meh.

[Anonymous Coward]

The school mentioned bought 20000 iPads. If a few schools stick together, they can develop their own ruggedized android device and roll their own, always up to date flavor of android with all the management / configuraiton / spying functionality they "need", and still save a few million $.

Thank God it was IPads

[Anonymous Coward]

If it was Android, they could have afforded 60,000 tablets!

IPad?

[Anonymous Coward]

Should have called it ITampon. For your data's intimate hygene?

Re:also battery life after 2-3 years will start to

[ericlondaits]

Mi original iPad is having his 4th birthday in 4 weeks.

The bad:
- It's not compatible with iOS 6 or 7.
- It has problems with very JS-heavy websites (mostly those filled with Facebook and Twitter buttons that run in their own iframe and display number of likes and that kind of thing) which make it crash due to lack of RAM. Saner sites (such as Slashdot) work perfectly.

The good:
- It still works perfectly for reading books and comics, which I bought it for, music apps, playing videos, Facebook and Twitter etc. I haven't run across many non-compatible apps... mostly modern 3D games.
- I assume the battery life has gone down, but to me it's not noticeable.

And I believe the iPad 2 will last longer, because it was a big jump in terms of CPU and RAM and can still run the latest iOS.

Love computers but where is the strategy?

[blue9steel]

They've been shoving computers into school since at least the Apple II days, if not earlier. I'm not seeing much of a coherent effort to actually use them in some transformational way. I mean, if you're going to go with flip classes (pre-recorded lectures at home, problem sets at school) then this is probably a necessary step. If you're just going to keep teaching in the same way then this seems like a massive boondoggle. Sure, the kids and parents will love it because they're not paying the full price for it, it'll be subsidized by increased property taxes on everyone who lives within the district.

Re:Love computers but where is the strategy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sigh.

We use computers as teaching tools in school because we use computers in the workplace. This is increasingly true with mobile technology, especially in tech sectors.

Go ahead. Send your kids back to pencil and paper. Never teach them any sort of OS, or office doc app, or how to surf the web for information. They'll be filling large fries at 40.

Re:Love computers but where is the strategy?

[Osgeld]

computers in school are the same thing as they always have been, a showpiece, not to be touched, sitting there rotting, mostly unused. So bring in the tablets every kid gets to interact with a magical computer ... which is so simplified at this point someone who has never seen a computer could operate it, and the result, they use the shit out of them, but not for school.

its youtube,facebook,twitter, snapchat, video chatting, and porn, everything but learing, clap clap, not only have you made them stupider, but more entitled to neglect responsibility as well.

what works

[Anonymous Coward]

Books, sort-of. Reading the books is what worked for me ( PhD, Physics, etc, etc ).
Whatever form the material is, reading it and trying to understand it is essential.
That applies to everything except the technical courses.
For the technical courses, working problems, understanding the answers, the techniques, and how to go from
a word problem to an answer is how it's done. Being able to test the answer and verify it is also important,
if the plane is to fly, the car to go, and the toilet flush.
And the understanding has to be at every level that applies to the problem: from the simple force-reaction
in Physics, to the rate and balance effects of catalysts, to the dynamics of moving loads on structures, and
to how the idiots out there will try to break things......
Also - I did work ALL of the problems in several books, ( electronics, math, and physics ) and a lot of problems in
quite a few others ( Physics, checmistry, math, engineering, ). It is necessary for the understanding of technical problems.
About people and what they do when they say 'Hold my beer, and watch this!" is another matter altogether.

I crashed a Marriott's network with 150 iPads

[Whatchamacallit]

I deployed 150 iPads to a group at a business conference at a large Marriott hotel. We crashed the entire hotel network about 5 times. Right before we ran a video conference out of the country, we had to disable the wireless access points to make sure it didn't crash again during the video conference. They do suck bandwidth. I believe many were running Netflix and YouTube and goofing off during the meetings sucking up tremendous bandwidth. They were supposed to be running WebEx which was plenty heavy on the bandwidth. I can imagine the school is sharing bandwidth with other schools and they didn't consider how much bandwidth they needed. We knew we were going to pound the hotels network but they were unwilling for us to have Verizon install a network for our use. We had to use the hotel network which was outsourced to a rink dink vendor.

Re:I crashed a Marriott's network with 150 iPads

[ruir]

No need to "wonder" about such uses, there are plenty of applications to monitor bandwidth usage, or then you bring your own proxy. But then again, when needing more resources it would be useful to check for capacity *beforehand*. We also have this problem here, the bureaucratic process for booking rooms is very well organised, however people take for granted Internet access and forget it is also a resource that has to be managed.

Re:I crashed a Marriott's network with 150 iPads

[Anonymous Coward]

We had to use the hotel network which was outsourced to a rink dink vendor.
It is amusing I have been thru this at least 4-5 times with different hotels. HIGH end hotels. They have not yet latched onto the idea that their conference center in some cases is going to need 10gig trunks instead of a wrt54g that they got from the nephew of the branch manager.

I usually bring it up first thing now in any conference my group is attending. I am tired of it. We can not be the first ones who want this. People dragging laptops and other portable computers in is *not* new. In 1998 I would expect this. Its 2014.

Oh and there should be at least a modicum of network segregation. I should not be able to get onto the laptop of the guy 3 conference rooms over...

Bandwith

[SBatman]

What percentage of that bandwidth was iOS7 updates? Would it be better to place machine(s) at each school in the network to cache the updates rather than acquire additional bandwidth or become an ISP. I could see that when they all update it could clog the entire school network making operations impossible. Apple's documentation: "software updates can be cached on a local network server running OS X Server so that iOS devices do not need to access Apple servers to obtain the necessary update data." Back of the envelope calculation 200MB average per update (very conservative) 10 updates since iOS7 20,000 iPads 200 * 10 *20,000 = 40,000,000 MB = 40 TB At 1 Gbs = 40,000 * 8 /60 / 60 /24 = 3 days of full bandwidth.

Maybe 35,000 in 1980.

[CrashNBrn]

$35,000 was a decent Salary in 1980.
Lets inflate that 2% per year over 34 years. ( x 1.96)

Merely adjusted for inflation, that should be:
~$59,000 (from $30,000) to ~$69,000 (from $35,000)

$5/hr was also the median minimum wage for student-like jobs in 1980-85 (~10,500/yr). Over three decades later most States don't even have a minimum wage at $10 or above.

Re:Maybe 35,000 in 1980.

[MooseTick]

My first job was in 1989, and I remember the federal minimum wage was $3.35/hour back then. I'm sure some people made more, but I doubt most students beat that by much.

Re:Maybe 35,000 in 1980.

[CrashNBrn]

Mine was in '87, $5 to $6 / hr for selling bingo tickets. McDonalds pay was less iirc, $4 to $5 / hr. If you were less than 18, there was some loophole where Students could be paid ~3.50.
My decade may be off by 5 years, but that still doesn't change the end result by much ~20% (1.78 instead of 1.96).

There's an interesting chart kicking around that shows wealth distribution/incomes from the 1930's to 2010. There is a decided shift that occurs beginning in the 1970's, but it is much more pronounced from 1980 onwards.

Prior to the shift, the total is split in 5 pieces Top-20%, Next-20%, etc. Each group has nearly the same rate of increase (wealth/income). At some point in the last 30 years that growth - that can be neatly split into pieces falls apart. One has to split out the top 1% or 0.1% and THEN break the groups down into pieces to see the catastrophic effect this redistribution of wealth has had.

My explanation is poor, but along with other economic indicators, including the nearly frozen minimum wage rate, things are not looking all that great for the bulk of the populace in North America.

9" Nook

[CrashNBrn]

A 9" Nook HD, with Google Play now included (without hacking) is $179.99. The older version with 16GB on-board flash can be had for about $50 less.

Re:Mission creep... ONLY pencils!

[aliquis]

Imagine all the savings if you only read the Bible / Quran.

Forget about it

[JeffOwl]

They can't figure out how to allocate bandwidth to prevent starving out the critical users of their network and they want to run their own ISP?

Title should be....

[kuzb]

"how one school district wasted millions of dollars of your money to let kids fuck around on facebook."

Apple has platform for content development

[jsepeta]

Didn't Apple create an app for schools / educators / kids that would allow them to create content for the iPad ON the iPad? Samsung and Amazon treat their devices as content consumption only, and that's a weakness of the Android platform.

Re:Apple has platform for content development

[dk20]

Didn't apple just recently agree to pay like $400 million as a settlement for price fixing ebook prices?
So on top of the price of the device, there is also the artificial ebook prices?

Care to cite some examples of people actually creating content on the iPad in the real world? Most of the people i see with them are playing games or watching video's (consumption).

Re:Apple has platform for content development

[Anonymous Coward]

You know you need to pay an annual fee to develop and publish content for iOS right?

Locking them into the Walled Garden early!

[Irate Engineer]

Yeah, iPads are something like $300-$400 new (I don't know exactly, but hectobucks for sure). Handing thousands of them out seems generous and all, even if they are sold at a discount.

Apple (and other companies) are smart to try to be the first one to have their technology put in front of young people. Once the kids get hooked on the brand, many will stick with the brand for life.

Take the OP summary and replace the word "iPad" with "pack of Marlboro cigarettes" and see how this all hits you. It really is they same type of "hook 'em young" advertising that Big Tobacco got slammed for doing.

Hopefully these future technology consumers are learning something through the process.

Re:Locking them into the Walled Garden early!

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess iPads don't give you as much cancer as tobacco does though.

Sounds Like Success to Me

[Anonymous Coward]

If their major problem is network bandwidth, then I'd suggest that is a very positive sign. Maybe their planning could have included the network capacity but that is a minor complaint overall.

Kudos to Coachella Valley Unified School District!

How do you measure "good"?

[rsborg]

If teachers' unions ever agree to let teachers be paid based on how good they are - rather than just by seniority - you might actually see more attractive salaries for good teachers. You might also see more bright people interested in taking up the profession if they knew they could make a better living doing so.

The problem is in the measuring of "good" - this is realistically best measured in terms of outcomes - i.e., the better a student does a the end of their scholastic engagement, the teachers involved should be rewarded. Problem: this takes long-term thinking and doesn't profit private interests.

Some teachers had a profound impact on my education. I spend the majority of my educational years in US schools, after immigrating here. The impact could not likely have been measured within the year. You would have to have looked at my performance at the end of several years, or my matriculation out of the school to accurately see what those experiences did for me.

However then you run into the problem that a similar students in similar classes with perhaps abusive home environments, or being unlucky enough to live in more dangerous neighborhoods (gangs, drugs) who might have completely different scores - so you'd need to also cross-correlate with socio-economic factors to get a true view (i.e., factoring out economic standing, and possibly more uncomfortable factors like ethnicity and type of household like single-income vs. dual, vs. single-parent, etc).

All this shit is hard. And doesn't profit those who want to cash in on the education cash cow. So it's never going to happen. But it should.

The schools' major mistake

[mysidia]

Is having the county itself provide internet connectivity. We already know that doesn't work.

Don't do that! School districts' should be provisioning their own upstream connectivity.

This is not the type of thing that the county should be handling.

The answer is simple..... put internet services out for bid and buy a big bandwidth contract for the school district.

Yes it's expensive..... it's where a majority of the cost of 20,000 iPads goes.

And it's not fair to be leeching off the local government's resources or forcing 100 school districts to share a limited pipe that cannot reliably meet the requirements.

What an utter waste of money

[DrXym]

I'm sure school kids do love their ridiculously expensive luxury tablets. A more fiscally responsible school system would have used cheaper tablets, or even required parents to buy them from a shortlist of devices which supported some minimum spec (e.g. ability to run 6 hours on a charge, read epub format books, capacitive screen, 8" or larger etc.)

Yeah, BG-RGB-15000 15Watts animation rgb laser

[carol112]

this link could be interesting. http://www.stagelasers.com/15w...

Maybe 35,000 in 1980.

[Anonymous Coward]

Minimum wage in the 1980's was $3.35 per hour. I know because I worked it.

I still can't for the life of me

[Masters Champion]

Agreed.
My daughter got a school-issued iPad last year (junior in high school) and in my opinion it only served to distract her from studies at home (due to the constant Twitter/Instagram/whatever checking), and watch Netflix in her room rather than in the family area.

In her opinion, it did nothing to improve her educational outcomes, and only served to provide another distraction to kids in her classes. Most teachers did not integrate it into lessons at all. Many kids would simply play games in class all day. This is in a middle-class, suburban U.S. high school. After reading Amanda Ripley's "The Smartest Kids in the World", I'm even more against them in schools.

With these devices, the schools are adding more burden to the parents to control the kids' access to the devices simply so that they can get their regular homework done.

Unfortunately, it seems the "oooohhh, shiny!" perspective seems to win out with schools rather than encouraging hard work.