Yes, the level of spying on people by government is dangerous. But failing to do that spying may be even more dangerous.
Free and principled countries would rather risk it than sacrifice fundamental freedoms for safety. Furthermore, you admit the government is dangerous, but the government is also far more of a threat than any terrorist.
There's still a sizable majority across parties in favor of such wiretapping, for pretty simple reasons:
Because they're freedom-hating scumbags who would rather sacrifice people's fundamental liberties for safety. No free, principled country would do such a thing, but hey, you have to have safety above all, right? And the government is made up of perfect little angels who could never abuse their powers or make a mistake, so they'll definitely use all this information wisely.
That's not a surprise since the first adult problem they faced, they took a shortcut.
Shortcuts are not bad at all, especially when you don't actually need the thing being offered. The people you speak of do not sound like real autodidacts, but the type of people who skip over the 'boring' stuff, don't bother to research what they actually need to know, and maybe even think they know a hell of a lot more than they actually do. These types are not being discussed, and in my opinion, colleges or universities can't fix such losers.
I know I always go see my local doctor who doesn't have a degree either.
Bad example. While anyone can learn to program and get experience on their own without college, it is difficult for people like doctors to get actual experience without some sort of institution.
And? Someone knew her name, and voluntarily decided to write a Twitter post about her. She might not like it, but I don't think she has any right at all to prevent someone from using their own property (or others' property, with their permission) to write such a post.
So, when you do the problem 7*8 what is your thought process?
Any number of things, depending on which is easiest. I know 8*8, so I may just use that result and subtract 8. Sometimes I'll multiply by a power of 10 and then subtract or add as necessary. Sometimes I'll multiply by 10 and half the result and subtract/add as necessary. It just depends on what is fastest for me, and I can do all of it fairly quickly.
But I know mathematicians that have a deep understanding of the more complex math, and yet can barely do basic math problems.
You seem to be hung up on the idea of a literal table of math problems
Multiplication tables are what is being discussed, and yes, they usually are memorized in such a way. Yes, what I am speaking of is literally looking at a table, or something similar, and memorizing the results. I don't really care for being forced to memorize a bunch of results, and nor do I care for doing busywork containing problems that have absolutely no basis in reality.
I don't believe anyone in this thread said college is a requirement for an education.
They basically did, as they speak as if college is a requirement for getting a good education, and that it has all these mystical benefits one can't get anywhere else.
However, reading some of your replies, you certainly seem to have this really big common-man-elitism chip on your shoulder.
Useless assumption on your part, and the meaning is unclear. People just tend to assume that because they derived benefit from something, it would work as well for someone else, or because they can't do something, no one else can.
Because, simply put, not everyone fits into the formal education environment; such people would just make themselves miserable. Furthermore, they might not *need* to. Have you thought of that? Not everyone wants to get a piece of paper for the sake of getting a piece of paper. Not everyone wants to surrender to the disgusting status quo that says 'Everybody's gotta go to college!' I would refuse on principle, even if the other reasons were absent.
A good degree will surround you with people that are smart but NOT like you and they think differently.
You know what else will do that? Life.
You will also learn things that you normally would not learn because
Because you didn't self-educate yourself properly. You must understand even the 'boring' stuff.
Can someone just admit that you don't need to go to college to get an education, that everyone is not cut out for the formal education environment, and that it's possible to self-educate *properly*? Is this some sort of elitism where people assume that because they had to go to college to learn, that everyone else must have the same limitations as they do?
Wow. Sounds like sour grapes from somebody who has chosen not to seek a degree or, for perhaps, maybe couldn't afford one, overly smart and found school boring or simply didn't have the necessary non-technical skills to get into college?
You sound like someone who can't stand the thought that some people learn differently from you and can, in fact, teach themselves quite effectively. No need to be so elitist about it.
I guess my point is... a degree doesn't make a great programmer, but a degree can help make a better person
It can, if you fit into the formal education environment *and* need someone to teach you; going to college when the former is false will just make you miserable, and going to college when the latter is false will just waste your time and money. Especially in the age of information, there is no reason one can't teach oneself. Yes, that includes the 'boring' stuff: theory. I get tired of it when people act like college/university is some one-size-fits-all solution and anyone who doesn't use it is really missing out. Everyone learns differently.
I would likely lean toward hiring a great programmer with a degree over a great programmer without one.
If you look elsewhere, I do not deny that I have certain results (8x8) memorized, but far from even a whole 9x9 table. We definitely had that multiplication table nonsense when I was in school. The result was that most people forgot most of them and ended up having to calculate them manually. Later, years after I left our abysmal public education system, I memorized certain results that I started seeing often (8x8) *naturally*. That means I made no specific effort to memorize anything; it just happened.
And that's really what some people prefer. Let people do things their own way, rather than shoving rote memorization down people's throats. There are certain schools devoted to this sort of thinking, but they're obviously sure as hell not our awful public (or even most terrible private) schools. And if you think doing arithmetic slowly is a problem that keeps people back from understanding algebra and other math, you'll likely never understand the real problems. Not understanding how and why addition, multiplication, etc. work can hold people back, but most people don't understand any of it anyway. It has very little to do with memorizing tables.
which is what you get from "an understanding of multiplication" without having any memorized answers.
Nope.
You seem to believe that you haven't memorized these things but if you are not counting on your fingers to add numbers together then you HAVE memorized these things
I seem to believe that I didn't memorize a multiplication table, which is true. Stop telling me what I think, or I'll have to start doing the same to you.
I used other tricks to make multiplication more quick, which does involve retaining information, but I have no problem with that to begin with. "They are simple tricks or observations, and one trick is obviously to just memorize the results of various calculations from a table. Some include moving the decimal point depending on what power of 10 you're working with, taking off trailing zeros and adding them back on later, or splitting up the problem into parts and then adding it all up at the end. There are many, and all of them are pretty obvious. I guess you could be even faster if you memorized some results from a table, if you care about that."
I do not know a grand majority of the multiplication table, and I didn't use that here.
but those tricks still rely on you having memorized a sufficient set of single digit addition and multiplication problems.
I could see addition, but I do not know that multiplication table garbage.
It's not a second. If it's a second then they have enough stuff memorized to do the arithmetic. It seems that you've never worked with a student struggling with basic arithmetic such that it takes them 15-30 seconds to do 15+27
It seems you've never worked with someone who can do math quickly without memorizing a multiplication table.
You seem to be under the impression that memorizing of tables is used in place of teaching how the operations work.
They are. I saw it in action myself. The 'teaching' methods you describe don't go into the full picture at all.
The problem with rote learning in mathematics comes when you start doing mathematics instead of arithmetic.
The problem with rote learning is that it shouldn't exist in 99% of cases. The multiplication table is one such case.
Stop trying to push your one-size-fits-all solution onto others, and stop telling *me* what my thought process is.
As long as a no-fly list exists in any way, shape, or form, nothing has been fixed. The government should have to take these people to court, not deny them the ability to fly without due process; that's just unconstitutional.
By reducing the powers of the government, you create a power vacuum
So getting rid of the TSA, the NSA's mass surveillance, stop-and-frisk, and other unconstitutional powers is fascist because it'll create a power vacuum, merely because it reduces the government's power? The fact is, the government has many powers now that it should not have. Those need to be gotten rid of. The unconstitutional ones, for starters.
See people, this is why we need civics in schools again
I definitely agree that we need civics, but most schools already have it, as far as I know; like everything else, it's just taught very, very poorly. Our education system is abysmal (focusing on rote memorization, teaching to the test, propaganda, and being a one-size-fits-all 'solution'), and it only works in favor of the government.
You're talking about standardized tests, I'm referring to in classroom tests.
Which are almost always equally as bad.
If you know 9x6
I actually don't. I had to think about it for a split second.
If the teacher is demonstrating a problem, e.g. 6x-27 = 15 and for the next step writes 6x=42 it is surely easier for the student to follow along if they can quickly see that 27+15 = 42 without having to write it out and calculate it.
The problem is that people are forced to solve arbitrary problems that have no basis in reality whatsoever far too often, and as a result, understanding suffers. I don't buy your logic that because someone has to think about it for a second, then they suddenly won't know what's going on.
And again, you think memorizing the results of calculations is the only way to find the answer quickly. Nonsense, I say. Understanding the process of multiplication and addition helps you make many observations that make finding the answer quicker without having to memorize results.
You can't gain understanding if you fall back on a calculator for basic knowledge.
Nonsense. You clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Using a tool often does not mean you don't understand how and why multiplication works.
A student who knows the multiplication table will be able to complete a quiz on division while the student who doesn't, won't.
Again, nonsense. That doesn't even make sense. It's clear to me that you were 'taught' using the multiplication table so you know of no other methods to quickly get the answer, and you think that people who rationally use calculators (Read: that doesn't mean they weren't taught to understand the math) to save time can't do math themselves. Nonsense, all of it.
I'm saying that learning the basic material is important and until you've learned it a calculator is a hindrance.
The basic material is important. Memorizing a table or results, however, not so much; at most, that just makes some things faster. At worst (the current situation), it helps instill a sense that education is all about memorization and math is all about speed.
I did not say, "I am absolutely right because you are ignorant." or anything of the sort. Get an understanding of what argument ad hominem is. Making a statement without attempting to back it up does not qualify, and neither does simply insulting someone.
Slashdot Mirror
If they can still find 12 people who think that your non-crime might still be worthy of punishment, maybe you're wrong!
Popularity is irrelevant.
Yes, the level of spying on people by government is dangerous. But failing to do that spying may be even more dangerous.
Free and principled countries would rather risk it than sacrifice fundamental freedoms for safety. Furthermore, you admit the government is dangerous, but the government is also far more of a threat than any terrorist.
There's still a sizable majority across parties in favor of such wiretapping, for pretty simple reasons:
Because they're freedom-hating scumbags who would rather sacrifice people's fundamental liberties for safety. No free, principled country would do such a thing, but hey, you have to have safety above all, right? And the government is made up of perfect little angels who could never abuse their powers or make a mistake, so they'll definitely use all this information wisely.
That's not a surprise since the first adult problem they faced, they took a shortcut.
Shortcuts are not bad at all, especially when you don't actually need the thing being offered. The people you speak of do not sound like real autodidacts, but the type of people who skip over the 'boring' stuff, don't bother to research what they actually need to know, and maybe even think they know a hell of a lot more than they actually do. These types are not being discussed, and in my opinion, colleges or universities can't fix such losers.
I know I always go see my local doctor who doesn't have a degree either.
Bad example. While anyone can learn to program and get experience on their own without college, it is difficult for people like doctors to get actual experience without some sort of institution.
Because the woman was at work.
And? Someone knew her name, and voluntarily decided to write a Twitter post about her. She might not like it, but I don't think she has any right at all to prevent someone from using their own property (or others' property, with their permission) to write such a post.
No it's private property.
Indeed.
It doesn't change your ownership just because you let people in.
No, it doesn't. But no one said that.
What I'm confused about, though, is why people think that others can't post their names online?
Which is the point of doing them to begin with.
Because that's what "calculate them manually" means
In the context of multiplication tables, it means doing something like "8... 16... 24... 32... 40..." until the answer is found.
You think that MOST people in your class forgot single-digit multiplications
They did, and so did I.
and everyone who has ever complained about cashiers being unable to make change agrees with me.
Everyone? Well, I don't. Therefore, that statement is false. I think something else is lacking, and that's an understanding of the process itself.
So, when you do the problem 7*8 what is your thought process?
Any number of things, depending on which is easiest. I know 8*8, so I may just use that result and subtract 8. Sometimes I'll multiply by a power of 10 and then subtract or add as necessary. Sometimes I'll multiply by 10 and half the result and subtract/add as necessary. It just depends on what is fastest for me, and I can do all of it fairly quickly.
But I know mathematicians that have a deep understanding of the more complex math, and yet can barely do basic math problems.
You seem to be hung up on the idea of a literal table of math problems
Multiplication tables are what is being discussed, and yes, they usually are memorized in such a way. Yes, what I am speaking of is literally looking at a table, or something similar, and memorizing the results. I don't really care for being forced to memorize a bunch of results, and nor do I care for doing busywork containing problems that have absolutely no basis in reality.
I don't believe anyone in this thread said college is a requirement for an education.
They basically did, as they speak as if college is a requirement for getting a good education, and that it has all these mystical benefits one can't get anywhere else.
However, reading some of your replies, you certainly seem to have this really big common-man-elitism chip on your shoulder.
Useless assumption on your part, and the meaning is unclear. People just tend to assume that because they derived benefit from something, it would work as well for someone else, or because they can't do something, no one else can.
Why not?!
Because, simply put, not everyone fits into the formal education environment; such people would just make themselves miserable. Furthermore, they might not *need* to. Have you thought of that? Not everyone wants to get a piece of paper for the sake of getting a piece of paper. Not everyone wants to surrender to the disgusting status quo that says 'Everybody's gotta go to college!' I would refuse on principle, even if the other reasons were absent.
A good degree will surround you with people that are smart but NOT like you and they think differently.
You know what else will do that? Life.
You will also learn things that you normally would not learn because
Because you didn't self-educate yourself properly. You must understand even the 'boring' stuff.
Can someone just admit that you don't need to go to college to get an education, that everyone is not cut out for the formal education environment, and that it's possible to self-educate *properly*? Is this some sort of elitism where people assume that because they had to go to college to learn, that everyone else must have the same limitations as they do?
Wow. Sounds like sour grapes from somebody who has chosen not to seek a degree or, for perhaps, maybe couldn't afford one, overly smart and found school boring or simply didn't have the necessary non-technical skills to get into college?
You sound like someone who can't stand the thought that some people learn differently from you and can, in fact, teach themselves quite effectively. No need to be so elitist about it.
but learning all the different data structures and techniques for design and development at school helped a lot
You can teach yourself all of that, too.
I guess my point is... a degree doesn't make a great programmer, but a degree can help make a better person
It can, if you fit into the formal education environment *and* need someone to teach you; going to college when the former is false will just make you miserable, and going to college when the latter is false will just waste your time and money. Especially in the age of information, there is no reason one can't teach oneself. Yes, that includes the 'boring' stuff: theory. I get tired of it when people act like college/university is some one-size-fits-all solution and anyone who doesn't use it is really missing out. Everyone learns differently.
I would likely lean toward hiring a great programmer with a degree over a great programmer without one.
Because of bias. How about testing them first?
If you look elsewhere, I do not deny that I have certain results (8x8) memorized, but far from even a whole 9x9 table. We definitely had that multiplication table nonsense when I was in school. The result was that most people forgot most of them and ended up having to calculate them manually. Later, years after I left our abysmal public education system, I memorized certain results that I started seeing often (8x8) *naturally*. That means I made no specific effort to memorize anything; it just happened.
And that's really what some people prefer. Let people do things their own way, rather than shoving rote memorization down people's throats. There are certain schools devoted to this sort of thinking, but they're obviously sure as hell not our awful public (or even most terrible private) schools. And if you think doing arithmetic slowly is a problem that keeps people back from understanding algebra and other math, you'll likely never understand the real problems. Not understanding how and why addition, multiplication, etc. work can hold people back, but most people don't understand any of it anyway. It has very little to do with memorizing tables.
which is what you get from "an understanding of multiplication" without having any memorized answers.
Nope.
You seem to believe that you haven't memorized these things but if you are not counting on your fingers to add numbers together then you HAVE memorized these things
I seem to believe that I didn't memorize a multiplication table, which is true. Stop telling me what I think, or I'll have to start doing the same to you.
I used other tricks to make multiplication more quick, which does involve retaining information, but I have no problem with that to begin with. "They are simple tricks or observations, and one trick is obviously to just memorize the results of various calculations from a table. Some include moving the decimal point depending on what power of 10 you're working with, taking off trailing zeros and adding them back on later, or splitting up the problem into parts and then adding it all up at the end. There are many, and all of them are pretty obvious. I guess you could be even faster if you memorized some results from a table, if you care about that."
I do not know a grand majority of the multiplication table, and I didn't use that here.
but those tricks still rely on you having memorized a sufficient set of single digit addition and multiplication problems.
I could see addition, but I do not know that multiplication table garbage.
It's not a second. If it's a second then they have enough stuff memorized to do the arithmetic. It seems that you've never worked with a student struggling with basic arithmetic such that it takes them 15-30 seconds to do 15+27
It seems you've never worked with someone who can do math quickly without memorizing a multiplication table.
You seem to be under the impression that memorizing of tables is used in place of teaching how the operations work.
They are. I saw it in action myself. The 'teaching' methods you describe don't go into the full picture at all.
The problem with rote learning in mathematics comes when you start doing mathematics instead of arithmetic.
The problem with rote learning is that it shouldn't exist in 99% of cases. The multiplication table is one such case.
Stop trying to push your one-size-fits-all solution onto others, and stop telling *me* what my thought process is.
and things ultimately got fixed.
As long as a no-fly list exists in any way, shape, or form, nothing has been fixed. The government should have to take these people to court, not deny them the ability to fly without due process; that's just unconstitutional.
By reducing the powers of the government, you create a power vacuum
So getting rid of the TSA, the NSA's mass surveillance, stop-and-frisk, and other unconstitutional powers is fascist because it'll create a power vacuum, merely because it reduces the government's power? The fact is, the government has many powers now that it should not have. Those need to be gotten rid of. The unconstitutional ones, for starters.
Perhaps you'll understand your own style - you're an asshole with no brains who couldn't win an argument with a rock.
That is most certainly ad hominem.
That's an insult, not a fallacy. Insulting someone is not a fallacy.
But someone who doesn't know the difference between opinion and fact can hardly be expected to understand logical fallacies.
But someone who doesn't know the difference between opinion and fact can hardly be expected to understand logical fallacies.
See people, this is why we need civics in schools again
I definitely agree that we need civics, but most schools already have it, as far as I know; like everything else, it's just taught very, very poorly. Our education system is abysmal (focusing on rote memorization, teaching to the test, propaganda, and being a one-size-fits-all 'solution'), and it only works in favor of the government.
You're talking about standardized tests, I'm referring to in classroom tests.
Which are almost always equally as bad.
If you know 9x6
I actually don't. I had to think about it for a split second.
If the teacher is demonstrating a problem, e.g. 6x-27 = 15 and for the next step writes 6x=42 it is surely easier for the student to follow along if they can quickly see that 27+15 = 42 without having to write it out and calculate it.
The problem is that people are forced to solve arbitrary problems that have no basis in reality whatsoever far too often, and as a result, understanding suffers. I don't buy your logic that because someone has to think about it for a second, then they suddenly won't know what's going on.
And again, you think memorizing the results of calculations is the only way to find the answer quickly. Nonsense, I say. Understanding the process of multiplication and addition helps you make many observations that make finding the answer quicker without having to memorize results.
You can't gain understanding if you fall back on a calculator for basic knowledge.
Nonsense. You clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Using a tool often does not mean you don't understand how and why multiplication works.
A student who knows the multiplication table will be able to complete a quiz on division while the student who doesn't, won't.
Again, nonsense. That doesn't even make sense. It's clear to me that you were 'taught' using the multiplication table so you know of no other methods to quickly get the answer, and you think that people who rationally use calculators (Read: that doesn't mean they weren't taught to understand the math) to save time can't do math themselves. Nonsense, all of it.
I'm saying that learning the basic material is important and until you've learned it a calculator is a hindrance.
The basic material is important. Memorizing a table or results, however, not so much; at most, that just makes some things faster. At worst (the current situation), it helps instill a sense that education is all about memorization and math is all about speed.
I did not say, "I am absolutely right because you are ignorant." or anything of the sort. Get an understanding of what argument ad hominem is. Making a statement without attempting to back it up does not qualify, and neither does simply insulting someone.