i have a 192 CPU O2K where i work..usually we have 60 or so users, load average is around 20 or so. those are 192 250MHz R10Ks. usually with a load average of 20 the machine is about as responsive as a 300MHz P-II running linux (most of the processors are unloaded even at a load of 20). however, you can start a helluva lot of background jobs and its still as responsive as a 300MHz P-II. performance doesnt degrade, but it doesnt get faster either. also simple things like loading files, displaying directories etc are much faster than my 10K RPM ultra scsi drive under linux. its a bit weird initially - i was expecting this chunk of massive hardware to burn thru all my code like it didnt exist instead of plodding along - but it plods along with a helluva lot of bandwidth.
i have a sun storedge raid array with a fibre channel interface...actually its called FCAL. two things : 1] the fibre is really delicate be real careful when playing with it. 2] theyre real expensive. PC hardware is also very difficult to get with FCAL altho sun machines have it as a pretty common option.
it basically states that so the device must recieve the unwanted interference but not RADIATE out more interference as a result of malfunctioning operation. If you use a HERF gun on your computer, it must not blast you back with a radiated EMP shockwave caused from the frying of its internal components. basically, its to prevent a room full of electronics going beserk the minute they recieve a pulse from an unwanted source. you really dont want your FCC class B radio to destroy your TV & computer if it gets a voltage surge thru the mains.
i just want a 200MHz CPU, 24 bit LCD, 64MB RAM, 128MB flash, linux and X windows and sound/accelerated video/scsi connections/pcmcia slots on a device the same form factor as the palm. and it should last a month on 2 AA batteries. anyone know where i can get one of those ?
i hope youre just being sarcastic. i couldnt keep my freebsd box up for 4 hours let alone 800 days...and i wasnt even on the godamn box for 4 hours..it was just sitting idle doing nothing. i filed a bug report BTW, and make world also bombed on me after 30 minutes with ad0 errors and a compiler error. perhaps its me but since it was a standard install on a commonly used piece of hardware and since ive used various forms of UNIX since 1991 i should know what im doing and if i dont the system shouldnt bomb on me and crash hard regardless.
yup. i used to live there but moved after seeing the dozens of cameras springing up, guns being confiscated forcibly (anyone have a pistol legally in the uk anymore?), motion tracking software being loaded into cameras etc etc. after my company passed out radio freq. badges and security locks which monitored everyone in the bldg and within a 100m (it was so incredibly restrictive they could time your smoking breaks outside the bldg AND keep exact timesheets on you), i quit and headed for the states. this was in london BTW. the rest of the country still has some catching up to do. subject of the british empire ? no thanks.
no one is going to dump UNIX.if miguel thinks he has more knowledge than 30 YEARS of practical experience building UNIX then he's delusional. UNIX has always been about small parts working together to achieve many differing goals - kinda like the cellular structure in animals and plants. monolithic architectures are doomed to fail by design. i'd love to see linux become microkernel based or even BSD -- aside from the IPC overhead (which QNX also suffers from BTW), clean architectures are really kewl. GNOME is so top heavy i dont know how miguel thinks he can justify all that bonobo stuff...its struggling under all that weight as is. i still use afterstep on my dual 660MHZ P-iii/!GB RAM..everytime i switched to GNOME i could feel my machine slowing down.
Micro$hit did *NOT* write DOS. They bought DOS (or more correctly QDOS) from tim patterson, seattle computer co. for $50K. QDOS was a CPM clone which stood for quick and dirty operating system.
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yup. i was on an irix box back then and i remember setting up killfiles. fidonet echo was a helluva better than usenet back then..which is where most people were...on BBSes and stuff.
what AMD really needs is SMP. godammit AMD when the hell are you going to release dual/quad CPU systems ? im tired of buying crummy P-iiis running at 650MHz for dual/quad processing.
umm..no. the NT kernel had a multithreaded TCP/IP stack and is a true microkernel derived from VAX/VMS. VMS+1 char = WNT. microkernels are by definition cleaner - what would you rather choose - a 1,000,000 line BASIC program which is written well or a 1,000,000 line java/C++/smalltalk program written modular ? i'd go with the object oriented approach. granted that linux uses fairly modular code (hell, ive written a driver myself) and is easy to understand thanks to the cluefullness of the people writing it. yes the million line basic program in the above example will run faster than a corresponding java program (or any other OO) but the OO language approach results in a fairly clean design. monolithic kernels have ti be split on > 4 procs since the same code cannot be run with optimum efficiency. look at solaris - its dead slow on 4 CPUs. microkernels are just better at scaling up for >2 CPUs and are slightly slower on UP systems... one of the main disadvantages according to linus is the code for a microkernel is harder to write. thats one reason which has (so far) stopped much microkernel development in linux....other than mklinux which IS microkernel based but has not been developed properly.
try this one : http://www.yeongyang.com/yy-0210.htm..i have one in black...removed the front door, put a matrox orbital LCD in (with lcdproc to drive it), put a asus p2bds mobo with dual p-iii 600s and a gig of RAM, two 30GB ultra scsi HDDs, matrox G400 dual head video board, DVD RAM drive, 2 x 3C905Bs, extra fans and a APC UPS and i have the best looking desktop there is with a built in 20 minute battery no less..all for less than $2K.
put linux on that box with ingos real time patches for 2.2 so you can do soft real time scheduling, dump uncompressed 30fps video stream on the hard drive, tune the hard drive with the following options (if IDE) hdparm -c1 -d1/dev/hda and if your card is AGP, turn on the framebuffering. then you should be able to play the entire video stream without too many problems.
the reason your K7 cant get 30fps is cause you got a crappy video card. get a better one - ive got 30fps on a 333Mhz p2. PCs dont "stutter" either. latencies in your OS are to blame not the PC itself.
not entirely true. microkernels can scale better with multiple procs than monolithic designs..which is why linux/BSDs are having so many SMP problems...and one more reason why NT..besides the fact its dog slow..beat linux on a quad box. exokernels are slightly worse in design but better in performance than microkernels giving improvements in IPC where microkernels bog down. i'd take a slightly slower microkernel over a monolithic any day since the design itself is cleaner...portability is a non issue as you mentioned.
*shrug* why bother when redhat does what i need ? theres no real advantage to using slackware - it just increases the workload. when you have over 50 different machine configurations to support and over 600 machines you appreciate a quick install and setup. its hardly "bad" in any way.
KDE/QT weakens the GPL standing. that said, i think its fairly easy for QT to make their license GPL compatible and remove any doubts. i wonder why they dont want to make a simple change in their licensing to appease the community in general ?
as an admin i havce to take issue with openBSD and its claims. OpenBSD recently had a DHCP root hole (remote). their claims still stands since they said that networking was not installed and turned on in the default install. this is a fairly ridiculous claim. Also, openBSDs limited hardware support, no SMP support (wha? who uses a single CPU server anymore? even my desktop has two) and confusing install (i tried it once - it worked but it was painful) is not going to help push it. you want to promote openbsd ? create a redhat like install for it so its secure out of the box AND has useful stuff/supports modern hardware(think quad xeons) AND its installer should be secure by default after starting all the common networking daemons. then you guys can promote openbsd all you want..hell..i'll buy a coupla hundred copies.
redhat IS used on a lot of servers. i use it on mine since i know that if i have a hard disk die at 3am i can reinstall and be up by 4am (and i was...did it once). no other distro can say that. plus redhats support is good, everyone uses it so user level support is good, rpm is the easiest package manager ive ever used (and it beats dpkg -- although not apt...but then apt requires libc++) and its simple to lock down. its also incredibly standardised and is closest to the LSB. debian/slackware are mainly for the hard core geek audience..for server admins who have to struggle with multiple OSes ease of use/install is a MUST (i must be able to download an iso image if i dont have one, it must have all security fixes upto current, i must be able to install over HTTP/NFS/FTP/CDROM at least). i also run debian and slackware but the majority of my servers are redhat with ipchains/custom kernels and stackguard compiled binaries...and a few secret extras.
actually i hate to say it but the AC is right about apache. http://www.securityfocus.com/templates/archive.pik e?list=1&date=2000-05-01&msg=20000504210 806.C15107@vuurwerk.nl
the openbsd statements are a lie. if you enabled DHCP in openbsd 2.7 theres a rootkittable hole. just though you should know. the default install doesnt seem to enable any network services...and any OS without networking is hacker proof...
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i have a 192 CPU O2K where i work..usually we have 60 or so users, load average is around 20 or so. those are 192 250MHz R10Ks. usually with a load average of 20 the machine is about as responsive as a 300MHz P-II running linux (most of the processors are unloaded even at a load of 20). however, you can start a helluva lot of background jobs and its still as responsive as a 300MHz P-II. performance doesnt degrade, but it doesnt get faster either. also simple things like loading files, displaying directories etc are much faster than my 10K RPM ultra scsi drive under linux. its a bit weird initially - i was expecting this chunk of massive hardware to burn thru all my code like it didnt exist instead of plodding along - but it plods along with a helluva lot of bandwidth.
i have a sun storedge raid array with a fibre channel interface...actually its called FCAL.
two things :
1] the fibre is really delicate be real careful when playing with it.
2] theyre real expensive. PC hardware is also very difficult to get with FCAL altho sun machines have it as a pretty common option.
it basically states that so the device must recieve the unwanted interference but not RADIATE out more interference as a result of malfunctioning operation. If you use a HERF gun on your computer, it must not blast you back with a radiated EMP shockwave caused from the frying of its internal components. basically, its to prevent a room full of electronics going beserk the minute they recieve a pulse from an unwanted source. you really dont want your FCC class B radio to destroy your TV & computer if it gets a voltage surge thru the mains.
i just want a 200MHz CPU, 24 bit LCD, 64MB RAM, 128MB flash, linux and X windows and sound/accelerated video/scsi connections/pcmcia slots on a device the same form factor as the palm. and it should last a month on 2 AA batteries. anyone know where i can get one of those ?
i hope youre just being sarcastic. i couldnt keep my freebsd box up for 4 hours let alone 800 days...and i wasnt even on the godamn box for 4 hours..it was just sitting idle doing nothing. i filed a bug report BTW, and make world also bombed on me after 30 minutes with ad0 errors and a compiler error. perhaps its me but since it was a standard install on a commonly used piece of hardware and since ive used various forms of UNIX since 1991 i should know what im doing and if i dont the system shouldnt bomb on me and crash hard regardless.
yup. i used to live there but moved after seeing the dozens of cameras springing up, guns being confiscated forcibly (anyone have a pistol legally in the uk anymore?), motion tracking software being loaded into cameras etc etc. after my company passed out radio freq. badges and security locks which monitored everyone in the bldg and within a 100m (it was so incredibly restrictive they could time your smoking breaks outside the bldg AND keep exact timesheets on you), i quit and headed for the states. this was in london BTW. the rest of the country still has some catching up to do. subject of the british empire ? no thanks.
i'd like it to do java servlets..which are dog slow on most machines..that would be really kewl, IMHO.
no one is going to dump UNIX.if miguel thinks he has more knowledge than 30 YEARS of practical experience building UNIX then he's delusional. UNIX has always been about small parts working together to achieve many differing goals - kinda like the cellular structure in animals and plants. monolithic architectures are doomed to fail by design. i'd love to see linux become microkernel based or even BSD -- aside from the IPC overhead (which QNX also suffers from BTW), clean architectures are really kewl. GNOME is so top heavy i dont know how miguel thinks he can justify all that bonobo stuff...its struggling under all that weight as is. i still use afterstep on my dual 660MHZ P-iii/!GB RAM..everytime i switched to GNOME i could feel my machine slowing down.
Micro$hit did *NOT* write DOS. They bought DOS (or more correctly QDOS) from tim patterson, seattle computer co. for $50K. QDOS was a CPM clone which stood for quick and dirty operating system.
yup. i was on an irix box back then and i remember setting up killfiles. fidonet echo was a helluva better than usenet back then..which is where most people were...on BBSes and stuff.
what AMD really needs is SMP. godammit AMD when the hell are you going to release dual/quad CPU systems ? im tired of buying crummy P-iiis running at 650MHz for dual/quad processing.
umm..no. the NT kernel had a multithreaded TCP/IP stack and is a true microkernel derived from VAX/VMS. VMS+1 char = WNT.
microkernels are by definition cleaner - what would you rather choose - a 1,000,000 line BASIC program which is written well or a 1,000,000 line java/C++/smalltalk program written modular ? i'd go with the object oriented approach. granted that linux uses fairly modular code (hell, ive written a driver myself) and is easy to understand thanks to the cluefullness of the people writing it. yes the million line basic program in the above example will run faster than a corresponding java program (or any other OO) but the OO language approach results in a fairly clean design. monolithic kernels have ti be split on > 4 procs since the same code cannot be run with optimum efficiency. look at solaris - its dead slow on 4 CPUs. microkernels are just better at scaling up for >2 CPUs and are slightly slower on UP systems... one of the main disadvantages according to linus is the code for a microkernel is harder to write. thats one reason which has (so far) stopped much microkernel development in linux....other than mklinux which IS microkernel based but has not been developed properly.
try this one : http://www.yeongyang.com/yy-0210.htm ..i have one in black...removed the front door, put a matrox orbital LCD in (with lcdproc to drive it), put a asus p2bds mobo with dual p-iii 600s and a gig of RAM, two 30GB ultra scsi HDDs, matrox G400 dual head video board, DVD RAM drive, 2 x 3C905Bs, extra fans and a APC UPS and i have the best looking desktop there is with a built in 20 minute battery no less..all for less than $2K.
put linux on that box with ingos real time patches for 2.2 so you can do soft real time scheduling, dump uncompressed 30fps video stream on the hard drive, tune the hard drive with the following options (if IDE) hdparm -c1 -d1 /dev/hda and if your card is AGP, turn on the framebuffering. then you should be able to play the entire video stream without too many problems.
the reason your K7 cant get 30fps is cause you got a crappy video card. get a better one - ive got 30fps on a 333Mhz p2. PCs dont "stutter" either. latencies in your OS are to blame not the PC itself.
not entirely true. microkernels can scale better with multiple procs than monolithic designs..which is why linux/BSDs are having so many SMP problems. ..and one more reason why NT ..besides the fact its dog slow..beat linux on a quad box. exokernels are slightly worse in design but better in performance than microkernels giving improvements in IPC where microkernels bog down. i'd take a slightly slower microkernel over a monolithic any day since the design itself is cleaner...portability is a non issue as you mentioned.
you make your money on the hardware right ? you give drivers away for free right ? so why not open source em ?
*shrug* why bother when redhat does what i need ? theres no real advantage to using slackware - it just increases the workload. when you have over 50 different machine configurations to support and over 600 machines you appreciate a quick install and setup. its hardly "bad" in any way.
KDE/QT weakens the GPL standing. that said, i think its fairly easy for QT to make their license GPL compatible and remove any doubts. i wonder why they dont want to make a simple change in their licensing to appease the community in general ?
as an admin i havce to take issue with openBSD and its claims. OpenBSD recently had a DHCP root hole (remote). their claims still stands since they said that networking was not installed and turned on in the default install. this is a fairly ridiculous claim.
Also, openBSDs limited hardware support, no SMP support (wha? who uses a single CPU server anymore? even my desktop has two) and confusing install (i tried it once - it worked but it was painful) is not going to help push it.
you want to promote openbsd ? create a redhat like install for it so its secure out of the box AND has useful stuff/supports modern hardware(think quad xeons) AND its installer should be secure by default after starting all the common networking daemons. then you guys can promote openbsd all you want..hell..i'll buy a coupla hundred copies.
redhat IS used on a lot of servers. i use it on mine since i know that if i have a hard disk die at 3am i can reinstall and be up by 4am (and i was...did it once). no other distro can say that. plus redhats support is good, everyone uses it so user level support is good, rpm is the easiest package manager ive ever used (and it beats dpkg -- although not apt...but then apt requires libc++) and its simple to lock down. its also incredibly standardised and is closest to the LSB.
debian/slackware are mainly for the hard core geek audience..for server admins who have to struggle with multiple OSes ease of use/install is a MUST (i must be able to download an iso image if i dont have one, it must have all security fixes upto current, i must be able to install over HTTP/NFS/FTP/CDROM at least). i also run debian and slackware but the majority of my servers are redhat with ipchains/custom kernels and stackguard compiled binaries...and a few secret extras.
all the students do it anyway for free. its not a big deal.
That, sir, was a frigging BRILLIANT posting if i may say so myself...
actually i hate to say it but the AC is right about apache. http://www.securityfocus.com/templates/archive.pik e?list=1&date=2000-05-01&msg=20000504210 806.C15107@vuurwerk.nl
the openbsd statements are a lie. if you enabled DHCP in openbsd 2.7 theres a rootkittable hole. just though you should know. the default install doesnt seem to enable any network services...and any OS without networking is hacker proof...
is that really advertising i see on the side of the rocket ?