Anyone can produce a JVM. There are several good FOSS ones out there now, as well as AOT compilers with GCJ nearly fully complete. There are NO legal impediments to ANYONE producing their own JVM and there is NO Sun-only bits in OOo.
I'm getting tired of this adversarial stance that/. readers in general have towards Java and Sun. Sun is not your enemy and Java is not a trojan horse. Sun have made their code available, several FOSS JVMs exist, the java spec is free.
Sure, it's a lot of work to make a good JVM, and I wish Apache all the best with creating a supurlative FOSS JVM, but the fact that Sun haven't done this on their own does not make Sun evil.
Bullshit. Noone is forcing you to use Open Office.
If it offends your sensiblities that Sun gives the product of years of its effort and millions of it's dollars away in ways which are "free" in many different senses except for your special definition of "free", then be my guest and don't use it.
You ARE an asshole for suggesting that something you get for free isn't exactly the way you want it. FFS - it's free! If you don't like it, don't use it.
Rubbish. Java development tools are better than C# (compare Eclipse to... well, anything, but MSVC in particular)
In addition, Java has a very mature and fully featured set of API's when compared to.NET which doesn't even have a general purpose table component nor a decent (== not amazingly slow like the.net bitmap classes) image class for image manipulation.
Yeah, me too. I entered the Linux world via Red Hat, but thanks to their "dump the crappy users" stunt with Fedora, I switched to Debian. Never been happier. Mainly because I know that shit won't ever happen with Debian. Red Hat has proven that they cannot be trusted.
Reading this thread (and others like it) has convinced me that M$ has already won with Mono - nothing else has managed to split the Linux community so deeply.
then lots of people who actually USE the GIMP (like me) respond saying it's just fine, it doesn't need to be like PS or like anything else - it's fine as it is.
Just thought I'd repeat - heaps of people like the GIMP just the way it is.
Both of these are trivial and constantly requested. If the GIMP developers do not implement them in the next release it will prove they're not interested in listening to their users.
If you care so much about it, implement it yourself. The Gimp developers are not your personal slaves.
I'm not a Gimp programmer, and I like the Gimp interface. I've used both Photoshop and the Gimp professionally and found them both about as much work to learn.
The Gimp interface is fine. The whinging about needing changes seems to be just from Photoshop uses who want it to be a Photoshop clone. Here's a clue: it's not, it never will be. Get used to it.
The thing is, once you've invested time in learning an interface you get used to it, you like it and you get resistant to change. This complaining about the Gimp is laziness from the Photoshop croud who can't be bothered learning that the Gimp has its own way of doing things. This is not a problem with the Gimp.
I repeat, I'm a user of imaging tools, not a producer. Plenty of Gimp users are perfectly happy with it as it is, thank you very much.
Bullshit. Sun was happy for MS to ship Java, they weren't happy for MS to ship a incompatible product and call it "java". In no way did it benefit Sun to have MS stop supporting Java, except insofar as it kept the language pure. Sun would have been much better off if MS HAD supported pure Java (shipping Java in Visual Studio was a huge boost)
"one patent infringement lawsuit from MS and it is gome (sic)"
Yeah, like when Sun sued Microsoft over Java and now MIcrosoft's Java is gone. Just goes to show anyone will sue anyone, there is no protection because you are not going with Microsoft.
That law suit was fought to preserve the integrity of the Java language, not to kill it on Win32.
A MS suit against Mono kills.NET on Linux.
The Sun suit against MS preserved the ability to code portable Java on Win32
I'd tend to agree. I've programmed in both Java and C#, and while I like C# well enough, political reasons make me not want to use it. Microsoft haven't even supported something as bog-standard as c++ very well and "side" technologies like VB and their Java version get either dumped or completely rearchitected (read "broken) between versions. You just can't trust Microsoft not to fuck up your code in the next version or make their APIs incompatible with earlier versions of their languages.
It's not that what they produce is bad per se, just that life attached to the MS juggernaut is painfull.
Show me where I said every feature of photoshop was supassed by GIMP? I said that many photoshop seats had been replaced by the Gimp in hollywood - this is true (go read the Cinepaint homepage for references if you want).
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Anyone can produce a JVM. There are several good FOSS ones out there now, as well as AOT compilers with GCJ nearly fully complete. There are NO legal impediments to ANYONE producing their own JVM and there is NO Sun-only bits in OOo.
Quit spreading FUD.
Watch out - your tin foil hat is leaking.
I'm getting tired of this adversarial stance that /. readers in general have towards Java and Sun. Sun is not your enemy and Java is not a trojan horse. Sun have made their code available, several FOSS JVMs exist, the java spec is free.
Sure, it's a lot of work to make a good JVM, and I wish Apache all the best with creating a supurlative FOSS JVM, but the fact that Sun haven't done this on their own does not make Sun evil.
Bullshit. Noone is forcing you to use Open Office.
If it offends your sensiblities that Sun gives the product of years of its effort and millions of it's dollars away in ways which are "free" in many different senses except for your special definition of "free", then be my guest and don't use it.
You ARE an asshole for suggesting that something you get for free isn't exactly the way you want it. FFS - it's free! If you don't like it, don't use it.
Your acceptance of corruption is heartwarming. Well done.
Ha! You've clearly never tried to support Windows software over several OS versions.
You are completely and utterly wrong.
I still regularly play XCom and Tom Landry's Football which are DOS games.
The popularity of DOS games on sites such as Home of the Underdogs is at odds with your assertions.
Rubbish. Java development tools are better than C# (compare Eclipse to... well, anything, but MSVC in particular)
.NET which doesn't even have a general purpose table component nor a decent (== not amazingly slow like the .net bitmap classes) image class for image manipulation.
In addition, Java has a very mature and fully featured set of API's when compared to
That's moronic. If you *want* to use the native UI toolkit in java, just use SWT.
Duh!
No! ECMA standards can be patent encumbed and that is most certainly not an "open" standard at all.
Stop spreading this rubbish that ECMA == Open, it does not.
Halo was much better on the PC than XBOX
Yeah, me too. I entered the Linux world via Red Hat, but thanks to their "dump the crappy users" stunt with Fedora, I switched to Debian. Never been happier. Mainly because I know that shit won't ever happen with Debian. Red Hat has proven that they cannot be trusted.
Fuck em.
Reading this thread (and others like it) has convinced me that M$ has already won with Mono - nothing else has managed to split the Linux community so deeply.
Congrats Miguel, well done.
this comes up every time GIMP is discussed,
then lots of people who actually USE the GIMP (like me) respond saying it's just fine, it doesn't need to be like PS or like anything else - it's fine as it is.
Just thought I'd repeat - heaps of people like the GIMP just the way it is.
Sun make the source free so anyone can port, IBM don't.
Is that simple enough for you? Can you spot the relevant difference? Should I type slower for you?
So, Sun release the source code for their JVM, but if they don't port it to every plaform in existence, that's *their* fault?
Yeah right.
Shows you how deep the /. anti-Sun bias runs.
Pathetc.
If you care so much about it, implement it yourself. The Gimp developers are not your personal slaves.
I'm not a Gimp programmer, and I like the Gimp interface. I've used both Photoshop and the Gimp professionally and found them both about as much work to learn.
The Gimp interface is fine. The whinging about needing changes seems to be just from Photoshop uses who want it to be a Photoshop clone. Here's a clue: it's not, it never will be. Get used to it.
The thing is, once you've invested time in learning an interface you get used to it, you like it and you get resistant to change. This complaining about the Gimp is laziness from the Photoshop croud who can't be bothered learning that the Gimp has its own way of doing things. This is not a problem with the Gimp.
I repeat, I'm a user of imaging tools, not a producer. Plenty of Gimp users are perfectly happy with it as it is, thank you very much.
So? Who ever said otherwise? Costing nothing is a reason that lots of OSS gets chosen. Duh.
Bullshit. Sun was happy for MS to ship Java, they weren't happy for MS to ship a incompatible product and call it "java". In no way did it benefit Sun to have MS stop supporting Java, except insofar as it kept the language pure. Sun would have been much better off if MS HAD supported pure Java (shipping Java in Visual Studio was a huge boost)
That law suit was fought to preserve the integrity of the Java language, not to kill it on Win32.
A MS suit against Mono kills .NET on Linux.
The Sun suit against MS preserved the ability to code portable Java on Win32
Spot the difference?
There's a *huge* difference.
Sun has worked for the last decade trying to ensure above anything else that Java works on as many platforms as possible.
Microsoft have worked for their entire life as a business to ensure that software only runs on their system.
The track record of these companies should be all the argument that people need.
I'd tend to agree. I've programmed in both Java and C#, and while I like C# well enough, political reasons make me not want to use it. Microsoft haven't even supported something as bog-standard as c++ very well and "side" technologies like VB and their Java version get either dumped or completely rearchitected (read "broken) between versions. You just can't trust Microsoft not to fuck up your code in the next version or make their APIs incompatible with earlier versions of their languages.
It's not that what they produce is bad per se, just that life attached to the MS juggernaut is painfull.
Show me where I said every feature of photoshop was supassed by GIMP? I said that many photoshop seats had been replaced by the Gimp in hollywood - this is true (go read the Cinepaint homepage for references if you want).