"Yes, Dorothy, there are computers in the third world"
Not in afghanistan and certainly not in areas controlled by the taliban and most certainly not wherever bin laden is hiding out. I heard he moves three times a week. I doubt he is dropping in on the nearest coffee shop to send his messages.
"I do not believe that it is a coincidence that the US has a major war every 20 - 30 years. "
Actually the war cycle is much shorter these days. Every four to eight years we gear up for some conflict or another. I suspect the election cycle has something to do with that.
Think about the last 40 years or so. What was the longest time that the US did not involve itself with some military conflict? I am not counting funding wars like in south america or afghanistan I am talking about actually sending in american troops someplace and killing some people.
Nice. Let's commit genocide that will make us feel so much better. What you advocate makes hitler look a saint doesn't it.
I heard a few people were arrested in germany today will you bomb german civillians too? After all they were harboring these terrorists. I heard some lived in canada will you bomb canadian citizens too? I heard some lived in Miami will you bomb miami too.? I suspect not. I suspect that the thought of actually killing white innocent people will not sit as well as killing brown innocent people.
"At no point have you explained why Reno had to do what she did. At no point have you explained why she should have been allowed to hold onto her job afterwards."
Let me try to expalin again. I don't give a flying fuck about koresh and his blind idiot followers, nor do I give a flying fuck about reno. Reno may have killed a few dozen people but that's nothing. First of all Koresh was exactly like the people who slammed that airplane into the WTC. He was a religious zealot who wanted to go out in a blaze of glory. Reno waited for over a month while koresh made a mockery of the US justice system. Republicans and democrats were alike wondering just exactly what the fuck was wrong with the police that they could not get this guy to come out. Ordinary citizens were grumbling that if they had committed a crime they would be in jail by now but koresh was getting a free ride.
The fact is that he could have avoided all this by simply raising his hands up and coming out. He chose not to do that. It was his choice and his alone.
I neither cheered clinton nor reno. I simply pointed out that clinton and reno also pariticipated in the much celebrated custom of killing innocent civilians abroad but that they had not done it to the levels that past presidents had done. Clinton killed less then one thousand innocent civilians but Bush sr. killed hundreds of thousands, reagan killed tens of thousands (and was indirectly responsible for ungodly torture and death of people in south america), and nixon of course carpet bombed much of southeast asia. Once again All american presidents (including clinton) enjoy killing innocent people overseas.
As for iraq you are seriously deluded. I suspect this comes from blindly believing everything a republican tells you and wrapping the flag around eyes.
1) The fact that iraq and kuwait have a disagreement has nothing to with protecting america. There was no need to go there in the first place.
2) Saddam was suckered by Bush. Bush had told him that he would look the other way if saddam attacked kuwait but then pounced on him afterwards.
3) All those so called soldiers were nothing but conscripts dragged out of their homes and put into the battlefield. That makes them prisoners not soldiers. Look at how they immediately surrendered. They were not fighting america they were waiting to be rescued by them. Nevertheless the relentless bombing proceeded for a month. Tens of thousands of people were killed bagdad. That bombing was absolutely no different the the NYC terrorism act. Except that you did it for cheap oil and they did it for religion (both of them silly excuse to kill people).
4) United nations may have bowed to american pressure but they did not initiate it. If it wasn't for america none of that would have taken place.
5) The sanctions were opposed by a lot of people and are still opposed by many european countries. Many of them have already broken them. It's at americas insistance that people of iraq are starving to death. In a way it would have been more humane to drop the bomb on them instead of subjecting them to slow and painful death by starvation. The fact is the the US holds the power of life and death over any country which opposes it. We could at a moments notice deploy nuclear weapons and wipe out europe and they know it. That's why when push comes to shove they will do whatever we say.
"Lovely. Hope you're proud of making that claim about the approximately 20,000 innocent men'
Hey sorry if the truth is hard to swallow. First of all the death count will be way less then twenty thousand. Putting that aside for a moment. As evil as that act was it does not compare to what the US has done overseas. We supported pinochet in his murderous regime, we supported Idi Amin, the Shah of Iran, the taliban, israel etc. the list goes on and on. Who do you think armed and trained the taliban? These same people who you are going to carpet bomb pretty soon were funded by your tax dollars to fight the russians remember that? BTW when your bombs are falling on kabul and killing people who had nothing to do with anything (just like the terrorists in NY did) the heads of the taliban will be off in the mountainside and Bin Lauden will be who knows where. You will kill innocents to make yourself feel better but you will not kill the actual guilty people. Just like you did with saddam. Kill the iraqi citizens let the monster live.
There is a reason why people all over the world hate america. have you ever asked yourself why that might be? Have you ever looked at the history of your own country in an objective way? DO you think the people think warmly of your country when one of your mines blows up the legs off their children? When US bombs and US planes are dropping missiles in palestine blowing up homes and businesses do you think those people like you? When the taliban is cutting the heads off of women who dare to walk in the street or go to school do you think those victims are praising the US? When people are being tortured and killed in south america do you think they like the fact that US funds and training made all that possible?
People hate you because you behave in a evil and hateful way. Not only towards all the people in the world but also with your own countrymen. Did you watch the news today? Did you see how your own citizens are treating your arab citizens?
America is a racist country. For hundreds of years they treated blacks as pets, draft animals, hunting game, and sex slaves. When that ended they turned on everybody else. If you want proof just wait and see.
I heard on the news that a few people were arrested in Germany in connection with this act. Do you think Germany will get bombed by the US for harboring terrorists? of course not they are white people. I also heard that some of these guys lived in canada. Will you bomb canada? of course not they are white people. You WILL bomb iraq, iran, afghanistan, libya, and any other nation where brown people live whether they had any connection to this or not. Iran is a shiite country and bin lauden is a sunni. They probably hate each other but it won't stop you from killing iranians by the ton will it? To you one brown man is just like another, kill them all they just muslims anyway right?
I could not prove references I don't have transcripts. I heard him with my own ears. he called for anhilating an entire country.
" I'm also curious -- do you hold Limbaugh to be more evil for supposedly calling for the killing of innocent civilians, or Clinton and Reno more evil for actually killing them while undertaking actions that were neither necessary nor constitutionally valid?"
Every president in recent history has taken upon himself to kill civilians at the earliest opportunity. We americans enjoy nothing more then seeing the blood of brown and black people spilled.Unfortunately like a mass murderer we start jonesing for some fresh meat every five to eight years. Clinton was not immune to this bloodlust but at least his number don't add up nearly as much as Bush SR or Reagan. So far Bush Sr. I think still has the lead with over a hundred thousand iraqis killed and millions suffering daily due to sanctions. I don't know if the jr Bush will try to beat his dads numbers but I suspect he will. Think really really hard now. When was the last time ten years passed without an american army killing people someplace in the world? Can you think of it? Now answer this question. When was the last time America was actually under attack by a foreign nation?
BTW I am not counting people killed by proxy where we arm a country (or some people), train them, fund them, and then help them kill lots and lots of people (israel for example or in most of the south americas).
So to answer your question. No I don't hold rush more evil but I do hold him plenty evil. He is an american and like all americans he too likes to see people being killed all over the world. He does not have the power to actually kill so like most americans he chooses to chant at the sidelines urging the leaders to kill. He just happens to have a bigger megaphone then most americans that's all. I strongly believe however that if he was ever elected he would probably kill more people then all of the rest of the recent presidents. Not only that but I don't think he would stop at our borders he would turn against the dark people inside the borders too.
"So, let me get this straight: you assume that because Rush wanted to see the perpetrators of the OKC bombing punished, he necessarily was calling for killing hundreds of thousands of Arab civilians??
"
I heard him with my own ears. he said he wanted to turn iraq into a parking lot. he wanted to kill everybody in that country!. Yes he really said that. Yes he really wanted kill arabs by the millions. Yes he actually advocated carpet bombing of civillians in retaliation. I heard him with my own ears.
He did not say "whoever did this should be punished" he said "when we find out who did this we should turn that country into a parking lot".
Now it was along ago and I forget the actual words he used but they definately involved killing the entire country. I repeat I heard it with my own ears.
"Koresh and his followers had no choice but to surrender. Reno chose to not ensure that they made that choice by simply waiting them out. As with Elian, there was no pressing need to roll in those tanks."
These people broke laws. They had plenty of opportunity to surrender peacefully to officers of the law. If they wanted to fight instead of going to jail they had plenty of time to get their women and children out of harms way. They chose not to do either. They used their children as shields and they mocked the law and the united states itself. Koresh had more then a month to do something noble he chose not to. People were begging him to come out peacefully and to release his children he did not choose to. He instead chose to endanger the lives of his childred and other children who were under his care. This was a despicable act. Those helpless children should have been let go on day one. Koresh chose to hold them hostage and use them as shields.
Like I said the response to "come with your hand up" is not "come and get me mutherfuckers" especially if you have children in the building. He was a evil, coward, pychopath who wanted to go out in a blaze of glory and chose to take his children with him. If you believe in your cause then get arrested. Every single hero in history has done that.
As for the rest of your rant..
Whatever.
I have heard the republican line over and over again (how could I not with the media so thoroughly controlled by the right). Suffice it to say I don't see the world through your black and white prism.
In all of your actions you seek to demonstrate that your core values have not changed. That we are still a country that believes in justice, fairness, morals.
You find out who is guilty and then you punish them. Maybe you can't bring them here and maybe you have to kill them but you have to target only the guilty. This rules out dropping bombs in kabul or lebenon or otherwise indiscriminately destroying women and children whose only crime in life is to be born a muslim in a country you don't like.
"There will always be someone that is unhappy with us."
Yes of course there will be. What you have to make sure is that you are acting in an honorable way. That way when there are disagreements they are handled respecfully. Right now our credibility is shot all over the world. Mostly because of our undying pledge of allegience to israel but also because of our inability to let five years go by without bombing the crap our to some poor defenseless nation. We are a country enamoured of spilling blood whenever and whereever we want. as long as we act in a brutal manner in killing people all over the world then those people will feel justified in acting brutally with us. As long as we are willing to kill civilians (100,000 iraqis were killed and millions still suffer due to embargoes what did they ever do to you?) then they will feel justified in doing this to us. Remember these people are dying anyways. They are being bombed daily by the US in iraq. If they are marked for death by american bombs and planes then why not make your death mean something? Give people a reason to live and maybe they won't commit suicide on your soils.
"BTW I realize that not all Muslims were dancing in the street, but I am not suggesting we target all muslim countries."
Let me tell you something. Sometime in the next few weeks american palnes will drop bombs on innocent civilians. Thousands of people will die in far off cities including women and children. Americans all over the country will dance, whoop, drink beer and celebrate this bloodbath. Don't kid yourself. You are absolutely no better then those animals.
"I also don't equate rednecks in montana with organizations that get state protection and support. "
Those terrorists boarded in the US. They lived in the US and Canada (at least that's what the news is saying). Guess what. The state protection they get is from the US and Canada. Are you advocating bombing canada? Of course not they are white people. You would much rather bomb algeria, iraq, or afganistan where the brown people live.
I am for any means that will actually punish the guilty. Weather that's chemical or not. I am not for torturing people to get answers. I am not for killing people who had nothing to do with this.
" Whether he truly called from bombing of "whoever is responsible" -- not an unsurprising, or particularly conservative, response -- he did, quite early on, start telling his listeners that his "contacts", or experts who he trusted, were telling him the culprits were likely not outside the USA"
Regardless. When the discussion was about killing iraqi civillians he was all for it. When the discussion was about US civilans he was against it. Neither the citizens of Iraq nor the citizens of michigan were responsible for that attack and he know that. Even if he bomber turned out to be an arab he knew the poor people struggling to stay alive in iraq had nothing to do with it. Despite this knowledge he was calling for mass murder of civilians.
"But, after seeing them handing out candy and selebrating today I really don't care if we can only punish a country by attacking its citizens."
A few people in the street in no way represents the millions of muslims in the world. After the OKC building there were plenty of high five-ing in texas, arizona, montana and other wester states where anti govt fervor was running high. Of course you choose to ignore that bit of news and of course the media never covered it.
"Sometimes when you fight with monsters you have to become one."
As long as you realize that. You are officially the same as the vile, evil covards that you seek to destroy. They won!. They not only stopped the economy of the united states (for all practical purposes) for a day or two, they not only caused billions in damages and killed tens of thousands but they also succeeded in making america into a savage terrorist state. All of our Ideals of democracy, justice and honor will now be thrown out the window and we will become the monsters they say we are. There can be no greater victory for a terrorist then to have a country undermine it's own value system so thoroughly.
"This would have eventually affected US policy. Now the average US citizen will never feal that way again."
First of the chances of the United States actually doing something Israel does not want is small to null. Israel is truly the tail that wags the dog. Secondly though this points out a very strong motivation for Israel to have actually commited this act. When you think about it they are probably the only people with the organization and the intelligence to carry out such an action and it will indeed give them free reign to complete their genocide of the palestenians undisturbed by the rest of the world.
"For one thing, Rush never, to my knowledge, advocated any such response to the Waco tragedy."
I was not talking about waco I was talking about OKC. In specific Rush did advocate bombing (actually he used much harsher words like devestating or turning into dust or something like that) whoever was responsible for the OKC bombing. Once he found out that not only was the perpetrator an American but also a Republican he changed his tune. All of a sudden turning Michigan into a parking lot was not an option. Why is that? Well it's because Rush wanted to see arab civillians killed by the hundreds of thousands but did not want to see American civillians die. There can be no other explanation for this abrupt change of heart.
As for the rest of your post..
Whatever.
I have heard enough of all this Reno bashing to last a lifetime. In my mind the proper response to "we have you surrendered, come out with your hands up" is not "Fuck you motherfucker I have guns and I ain't afraid to use them, come and get me if you can".
1) Those people were under arrest.
2) The police gave them plenty of time to surrender.
3) Their fate was in their hands.
All over the world incredibly brave people fight injustice by getting arrested, tortured and killed in jail. They are brave enough to become martyrs for their causes and are brave enough to die for their causes. These people you talk about didn't even have the guts to get arrested for their cause. If you want to talk about injustice talk to me about Stephen Biko or Nelson Mandella not some whiny ass nutcake like Koresh or some racist mutherfucker like Weaver.
Making these people into some sort of Martyrs is beneath your dignity and besmirches the efforts of people all over the world who fight against injustice and are arrested , tortured or killed in Jail. If Weaver saw one hundredth the hardship Nelson Mandella or Ghandi did he would commit suicide. Mandella survived 27 years in a south African prison finally emerging to lead his country. Koresh wouldn't have made it a week in there.
You can not punish a "country". Well you can but then you are absolutely no different then the monsters who blew up those buildings today. They too want to punish a "country" and do it by killing civilians. When (yes when) the US decides to punish whatever country they choose they will do it by killing tens of thousands of civilians just like these terrorists did.
The guilty will walk away untouched. Hussein, Kaddafi, Bin Laden, Arafat, Sharon are all still alive and well despite targeting civilians over and over again.
Like I said Americans are genetically incapable of acting rationally under these circumstances and will indeed kill tens of thousands of civilians and then they will walk around thumping their chests and telling the world what badasses they are. It's in our culture we can't help it. Too bad they can't look in a mirror and realize that they have just committed the exact same "cowardly and evil act" they accused the terrorists of doing.
" the people who live there do not want peace. They want to kill each other, and we - as a nation - are hated and called the "Great Satan" because we would (admittedly for very selfish reasons) like to see people not killing each other."
I agree that people in the middle east want to kill each other. But I disagree that we are hated because want to stop the killing. We are hated because if it wasn't for us Israel could not continue killing palestenians. We fund Israel, we make bombs and give them to israel, we make planes and give them to israel, we make guns and give them to israel, we gather intelligence and give it to israel. We support israel 100 percent in whatever act of ongoing genocide they are undertaking. All we have to do is to say "stop it or else the funding gets cut off" and israel would behave.
In short we are hated because we have taken one side of this conflict. As a result of that the ratio of dead palestenians to dead israelis is about 5 to 1. If Americans acted as an honest broker and held both sides responsible for their actions it would not be hated anymore.
"No matter what the Western nations do, they will never be popular, because we have principles, like human rights, which we champion, but aren't convenient for dictators and fundamentalists. "
Are you seriously suggesting that the western nations don't fund and support dictators and fundamentalists? That we alway act in the good of democracy and human rights? If we held fast to our principles and refused to prop up murderous regimes and refused to fund state supported genocides then people would not hate us so much.
BTW this attack was most likely organized and carried out by no more then a dozen people. You would have to kill enough arabs to make hitler look like a saint to prevent it from happening again. As long as people would rather die then live under your thumb they will commit suicide attacks. You either have to make peace somehow or commit acts of massive genocide. In the case of Germany the people chose to commit genocide I hope the US can resists the calls for racial cleansing that are sure to follow (and from reading/. and your post are already being called for).
" those responsible for OKC were subjected to the fullest extent of the law. Tim McVeigh was killed, and his accomplice faces life in prison."
Yes this is why our way of life is better then anybody elses. This is why America is decent place to live.
"If McVeigh had been an alien terrorist, and was hiding in a country that refused to extradite him, an act of war to bring him to justice would have been appropriate. "
I really don't think so. Declaring war against a country and the subsequent destruction and killing of people who are in no possible was responsible for the act in question is immoral and just plain wrong. It's the exact same thing tese terrorists did. Killing innocent people to exact some revenge makes you a terrorist and worse makes the United States into a terrorist nation. All those adjectives used to describe these terrorists like Vile, Cowardly etc will apply to you if you decide to take the same route.
I see no reason to sink to their level and to kill innocents civilians. Unfortunately the aftereffects of this will be severe. The terrorists have already accomplished their goals.
1) The public is now officially scared.
2) Americans will lose many freedoms as a result.
3) Americans will be suspicious of other Americans (it's going to suck to be an Arab or a Muslim in this country, if we can avoid concentration camps it will be good).
4) There will be increased military presense in the streets and increased military input into civillian discourse. In others words America will become a more military controlled nation then it was yesterday.
BTW whoever did this was massively funded and massively organized. They had insiders at every juncture. It would nto surprise me one bit if the responsible people were never found out.
For the paranoid bunch there will be speculation about the involvement of the intelligence community (more funding as a result), Israel (getting europe and US off their backs about the palestenians) and maybe even fringe militia groups. If after months of investigation a finger is not pointed at some convenient, weak, and easy to attack target like Castro, Saddam, or khaddafi I would be shocked.
" Then, I think we should retailiate against that group AND the country that is protectiong them"
Once again I think we will indeed retaliate if the country is not the united states. The point is how do you retaliate against a country? If you are the Untied States you simply drop bombs killing innocents as well as whoever you think is guilty. This makes you exactly like the terrorists.
These terrorists are attacking the US citizens because they hold the United States responsible for some act or another. Instead of killing the actual person(s) responsible they kill many civilians in order to "retaliate against a country". Just like you would have us do. If we do that there is no difference between them and us. Two sides of the same coin.
"It looks like we've got to smash somebody. In fact, it looks like the people we'll be hitting are fanatics."
I remember when OKC happened Rush LImbaugh started calling for bombing of "whoever is responsible". Once we found that it was an American and that bombing "whoever is responsible" meant bombing Michigan Rush shut up. I guess killing innocent people is much more palatable in Iran or Iraq then Michigan.
In the end our tendency to look at Arab and Muslim life as basically worthless will determine the scope of the attack. Not the desire to punish the people who are actually guilty. My guess is many many innocent people will die as a result of our retaliation which will make us exactly like the monsters who committed these crimes.
"Plus, do you really want the government handing down technology decisions like this?"
Why not? Doesn't the govt regulate Airplanes, automobiles, telvisions, cigarette lighters, wood products, baby stollers, steaks, vegetables and just about every other product made in the US. Why should the software industry be the only industry to escape from govt standards and regulations?
"So, if the only way I can opperate is illegally, then that's ok in the US, is it? Can I have a green card, now? Please."
In the United States the laws are designed to benefit the rich not to server the public. If you acted in a criminal way you would be jailed. Welcome to America!
The combined market cap of all the bably bells ended up being much higher then what AT&T could have achieved. This is because each had a mini monopoly. Breaking up MS would have had the same result. Each baby bill would have a monopoly which it would use to squash innovation. Each baby bill would then grow unfettered into a bigger company. Of course I am presuming that each baby bill would be run by the same immoral and unethical people but that seems like a likely scenario.
"If MS were completlely let go, I think you;d have the economical equivalent of the L.A. Riots."
Somehow I'd doubt it. Redmond is not a ghetto and MS has plenty of money to keep a massive security force around to crack some skulls. What you may end up seeing however is some people taking the law into their own hands and committing terrorism against the company. Maybe blowing up a building or killing some programmers or something. That seems much more likely because it will happen randomly (no security force can prevent it really) and it can be done by a small cell of highly motivated individuals. It might not even be a deadly assault. Something as simple as a smoke bomb set off just to send a message. Although to be fair you will most likely be punished just as harsh for a smoke bomb as with a real bomb so might as well do some real damage.
"I just think that it opens the floodgates for problems when individual states can make different claims. "
What country do you live in? Do you live in the United States? If so you must be aware of what happened with the tobbacco industry. Like it or not we have state laws and the states can and do impose thier own regulations on just about everything. Why should MS be exempty when R.J Reynolds was not?
In this case you don't even get to pick the fight. MS wins you lose. You fighting with MS is like a grasshopper fighting with the cat that's about to eat it.
Wether or not you perceive the threat is of no consequence. MS continues it's monopoly and continues to abuse that monopoly to surpress innovation and to punish innovative companies.
In any system there are winners and losers. Even the most oppressive dictatorship or the most corrupt govt has a handful of citizens who benefit greatly while the masses suffer. It may very well be that you are one of those people who benefit from an MS monopoly but the govt should be there to look out for the population as a whole.
"I do think that overblown government breaking companies and dealing new rules left and right is a big danger but that seems to be of no concern for majority of/. readers. "
I can't speak for all the/. readers but for me I would advocate that criminals (those that break laws) go to jail. In this case Bill Gates and his mafia ought to serve jail time for not only breaking the antitrust laws but also for jury tampering, evidence tampering, and perjury. We held an impeachment trial for a sitting president because he lied under oath (supposedly) but Bill Gates is immune. Why is he above the law?
Slashdot Mirror
"Yes, Dorothy, there are computers in the third world"
Not in afghanistan and certainly not in areas controlled by the taliban and most certainly not wherever bin laden is hiding out. I heard he moves three times a week. I doubt he is dropping in on the nearest coffee shop to send his messages.
"I do not believe that it is a coincidence that the US has a major war every 20 - 30 years. "
Actually the war cycle is much shorter these days. Every four to eight years we gear up for some conflict or another. I suspect the election cycle has something to do with that.
Think about the last 40 years or so. What was the longest time that the US did not involve itself with some military conflict? I am not counting funding wars like in south america or afghanistan I am talking about actually sending in american troops someplace and killing some people.
Nice. Let's commit genocide that will make us feel so much better. What you advocate makes hitler look a saint doesn't it.
I heard a few people were arrested in germany today will you bomb german civillians too? After all they were harboring these terrorists. I heard some lived in canada will you bomb canadian citizens too? I heard some lived in Miami will you bomb miami too.? I suspect not. I suspect that the thought of actually killing white innocent people will not sit as well as killing brown innocent people.
"At no point have you explained why Reno had to do what she did. At no point have you explained why she should have been allowed to hold onto her job afterwards."
Let me try to expalin again. I don't give a flying fuck about koresh and his blind idiot followers, nor do I give a flying fuck about reno. Reno may have killed a few dozen people but that's nothing. First of all Koresh was exactly like the people who slammed that airplane into the WTC. He was a religious zealot who wanted to go out in a blaze of glory. Reno waited for over a month while koresh made a mockery of the US justice system. Republicans and democrats were alike wondering just exactly what the fuck was wrong with the police that they could not get this guy to come out. Ordinary citizens were grumbling that if they had committed a crime they would be in jail by now but koresh was getting a free ride.
The fact is that he could have avoided all this by simply raising his hands up and coming out. He chose not to do that. It was his choice and his alone.
I neither cheered clinton nor reno. I simply pointed out that clinton and reno also pariticipated in the much celebrated custom of killing innocent civilians abroad but that they had not done it to the levels that past presidents had done. Clinton killed less then one thousand innocent civilians but Bush sr. killed hundreds of thousands, reagan killed tens of thousands (and was indirectly responsible for ungodly torture and death of people in south america), and nixon of course carpet bombed much of southeast asia. Once again All american presidents (including clinton) enjoy killing innocent people overseas.
As for iraq you are seriously deluded. I suspect this comes from blindly believing everything a republican tells you and wrapping the flag around eyes.
1) The fact that iraq and kuwait have a disagreement has nothing to with protecting america. There was no need to go there in the first place.
2) Saddam was suckered by Bush. Bush had told him that he would look the other way if saddam attacked kuwait but then pounced on him afterwards.
3) All those so called soldiers were nothing but conscripts dragged out of their homes and put into the battlefield. That makes them prisoners not soldiers. Look at how they immediately surrendered. They were not fighting america they were waiting to be rescued by them. Nevertheless the relentless bombing proceeded for a month. Tens of thousands of people were killed bagdad. That bombing was absolutely no different the the NYC terrorism act. Except that you did it for cheap oil and they did it for religion (both of them silly excuse to kill people).
4) United nations may have bowed to american pressure but they did not initiate it. If it wasn't for america none of that would have taken place.
5) The sanctions were opposed by a lot of people and are still opposed by many european countries. Many of them have already broken them. It's at americas insistance that people of iraq are starving to death. In a way it would have been more humane to drop the bomb on them instead of subjecting them to slow and painful death by starvation. The fact is the the US holds the power of life and death over any country which opposes it. We could at a moments notice deploy nuclear weapons and wipe out europe and they know it. That's why when push comes to shove they will do whatever we say.
"Lovely. Hope you're proud of making that claim about the approximately 20,000 innocent men'
Hey sorry if the truth is hard to swallow. First of all the death count will be way less then twenty thousand. Putting that aside for a moment. As evil as that act was it does not compare to what the US has done overseas. We supported pinochet in his murderous regime, we supported Idi Amin, the Shah of Iran, the taliban, israel etc. the list goes on and on. Who do you think armed and trained the taliban? These same people who you are going to carpet bomb pretty soon were funded by your tax dollars to fight the russians remember that? BTW when your bombs are falling on kabul and killing people who had nothing to do with anything (just like the terrorists in NY did) the heads of the taliban will be off in the mountainside and Bin Lauden will be who knows where. You will kill innocents to make yourself feel better but you will not kill the actual guilty people. Just like you did with saddam. Kill the iraqi citizens let the monster live.
There is a reason why people all over the world hate america. have you ever asked yourself why that might be? Have you ever looked at the history of your own country in an objective way? DO you think the people think warmly of your country when one of your mines blows up the legs off their children? When US bombs and US planes are dropping missiles in palestine blowing up homes and businesses do you think those people like you? When the taliban is cutting the heads off of women who dare to walk in the street or go to school do you think those victims are praising the US? When people are being tortured and killed in south america do you think they like the fact that US funds and training made all that possible?
People hate you because you behave in a evil and hateful way. Not only towards all the people in the world but also with your own countrymen. Did you watch the news today? Did you see how your own citizens are treating your arab citizens?
America is a racist country. For hundreds of years they treated blacks as pets, draft animals, hunting game, and sex slaves. When that ended they turned on everybody else. If you want proof just wait and see.
I heard on the news that a few people were arrested in Germany in connection with this act. Do you think Germany will get bombed by the US for harboring terrorists? of course not they are white people. I also heard that some of these guys lived in canada. Will you bomb canada? of course not they are white people. You WILL bomb iraq, iran, afghanistan, libya, and any other nation where brown people live whether they had any connection to this or not. Iran is a shiite country and bin lauden is a sunni. They probably hate each other but it won't stop you from killing iranians by the ton will it? To you one brown man is just like another, kill them all they just muslims anyway right?
I could not prove references I don't have transcripts. I heard him with my own ears. he called for anhilating an entire country.
.Unfortunately like a mass murderer we start jonesing for some fresh meat every five to eight years. Clinton was not immune to this bloodlust but at least his number don't add up nearly as much as Bush SR or Reagan. So far Bush Sr. I think still has the lead with over a hundred thousand iraqis killed and millions suffering daily due to sanctions. I don't know if the jr Bush will try to beat his dads numbers but I suspect he will. Think really really hard now. When was the last time ten years passed without an american army killing people someplace in the world? Can you think of it? Now answer this question. When was the last time America was actually under attack by a foreign nation?
" I'm also curious -- do you hold Limbaugh to be more evil for supposedly calling for the killing of innocent civilians, or Clinton and Reno more evil for actually killing them while undertaking actions that were neither necessary nor constitutionally valid?"
Every president in recent history has taken upon himself to kill civilians at the earliest opportunity. We americans enjoy nothing more then seeing the blood of brown and black people spilled
BTW I am not counting people killed by proxy where we arm a country (or some people), train them, fund them, and then help them kill lots and lots of people (israel for example or in most of the south americas).
So to answer your question. No I don't hold rush more evil but I do hold him plenty evil. He is an american and like all americans he too likes to see people being killed all over the world. He does not have the power to actually kill so like most americans he chooses to chant at the sidelines urging the leaders to kill. He just happens to have a bigger megaphone then most americans that's all. I strongly believe however that if he was ever elected he would probably kill more people then all of the rest of the recent presidents. Not only that but I don't think he would stop at our borders he would turn against the dark people inside the borders too.
"So, let me get this straight: you assume that because Rush wanted to see the perpetrators of the OKC bombing punished, he necessarily was calling for killing hundreds of thousands of Arab civilians??
"
I heard him with my own ears. he said he wanted to turn iraq into a parking lot. he wanted to kill everybody in that country!. Yes he really said that. Yes he really wanted kill arabs by the millions. Yes he actually advocated carpet bombing of civillians in retaliation. I heard him with my own ears.
He did not say "whoever did this should be punished" he said "when we find out who did this we should turn that country into a parking lot".
Now it was along ago and I forget the actual words he used but they definately involved killing the entire country. I repeat I heard it with my own ears.
"Koresh and his followers had no choice but to surrender. Reno chose to not ensure that they made that choice by simply waiting them out. As with Elian, there was no pressing need to roll in those tanks."
These people broke laws. They had plenty of opportunity to surrender peacefully to officers of the law. If they wanted to fight instead of going to jail they had plenty of time to get their women and children out of harms way. They chose not to do either. They used their children as shields and they mocked the law and the united states itself. Koresh had more then a month to do something noble he chose not to. People were begging him to come out peacefully and to release his children he did not choose to. He instead chose to endanger the lives of his childred and other children who were under his care. This was a despicable act. Those helpless children should have been let go on day one. Koresh chose to hold them hostage and use them as shields.
Like I said the response to "come with your hand up" is not "come and get me mutherfuckers" especially if you have children in the building. He was a evil, coward, pychopath who wanted to go out in a blaze of glory and chose to take his children with him. If you believe in your cause then get arrested. Every single hero in history has done that.
As for the rest of your rant..
Whatever.
I have heard the republican line over and over again (how could I not with the media so thoroughly controlled by the right). Suffice it to say I don't see the world through your black and white prism.
You respond to it with the following manner.
In all of your actions you seek to demonstrate that your core values have not changed. That we are still a country that believes in justice, fairness, morals.
You find out who is guilty and then you punish them. Maybe you can't bring them here and maybe you have to kill them but you have to target only the guilty. This rules out dropping bombs in kabul or lebenon or otherwise indiscriminately destroying women and children whose only crime in life is to be born a muslim in a country you don't like.
"There will always be someone that is unhappy with us."
Yes of course there will be. What you have to make sure is that you are acting in an honorable way. That way when there are disagreements they are handled respecfully. Right now our credibility is shot all over the world. Mostly because of our undying pledge of allegience to israel but also because of our inability to let five years go by without bombing the crap our to some poor defenseless nation. We are a country enamoured of spilling blood whenever and whereever we want. as long as we act in a brutal manner in killing people all over the world then those people will feel justified in acting brutally with us. As long as we are willing to kill civilians (100,000 iraqis were killed and millions still suffer due to embargoes what did they ever do to you?) then they will feel justified in doing this to us. Remember these people are dying anyways. They are being bombed daily by the US in iraq. If they are marked for death by american bombs and planes then why not make your death mean something? Give people a reason to live and maybe they won't commit suicide on your soils.
"BTW I realize that not all Muslims were dancing in the street, but I am not suggesting we target all muslim countries."
Let me tell you something. Sometime in the next few weeks american palnes will drop bombs on innocent civilians. Thousands of people will die in far off cities including women and children. Americans all over the country will dance, whoop, drink beer and celebrate this bloodbath. Don't kid yourself. You are absolutely no better then those animals.
"I also don't equate rednecks in montana with organizations that get state protection and support. "
Those terrorists boarded in the US. They lived in the US and Canada (at least that's what the news is saying). Guess what. The state protection they get is from the US and Canada. Are you advocating bombing canada? Of course not they are white people. You would much rather bomb algeria, iraq, or afganistan where the brown people live.
2) You make an honest effort to determine
I am for any means that will actually punish the guilty. Weather that's chemical or not. I am not for torturing people to get answers. I am not for killing people who had nothing to do with this.
" Whether he truly called from bombing of "whoever is responsible" -- not an unsurprising, or particularly conservative, response -- he did, quite early on, start telling his listeners that his "contacts", or experts who he trusted, were telling him the culprits were likely not outside the USA"
Regardless. When the discussion was about killing iraqi civillians he was all for it. When the discussion was about US civilans he was against it. Neither the citizens of Iraq nor the citizens of michigan were responsible for that attack and he know that. Even if he bomber turned out to be an arab he knew the poor people struggling to stay alive in iraq had nothing to do with it. Despite this knowledge he was calling for mass murder of civilians.
"But, after seeing them handing out candy and selebrating today I really don't care if we can only punish a country by attacking its citizens."
A few people in the street in no way represents the millions of muslims in the world. After the OKC building there were plenty of high five-ing in texas, arizona, montana and other wester states where anti govt fervor was running high. Of course you choose to ignore that bit of news and of course the media never covered it.
"Sometimes when you fight with monsters you have to become one."
As long as you realize that. You are officially the same as the vile, evil covards that you seek to destroy. They won!. They not only stopped the economy of the united states (for all practical purposes) for a day or two, they not only caused billions in damages and killed tens of thousands but they also succeeded in making america into a savage terrorist state. All of our Ideals of democracy, justice and honor will now be thrown out the window and we will become the monsters they say we are. There can be no greater victory for a terrorist then to have a country undermine it's own value system so thoroughly.
"This would have eventually affected US policy. Now the average US citizen will never feal that way again."
First of the chances of the United States actually doing something Israel does not want is small to null. Israel is truly the tail that wags the dog. Secondly though this points out a very strong motivation for Israel to have actually commited this act. When you think about it they are probably the only people with the organization and the intelligence to carry out such an action and it will indeed give them free reign to complete their genocide of the palestenians undisturbed by the rest of the world.
"For one thing, Rush never, to my knowledge, advocated any such response to the Waco tragedy."
I was not talking about waco I was talking about OKC. In specific Rush did advocate bombing (actually he used much harsher words like devestating or turning into dust or something like that) whoever was responsible for the OKC bombing. Once he found out that not only was the perpetrator an American but also a Republican he changed his tune. All of a sudden turning Michigan into a parking lot was not an option. Why is that? Well it's because Rush wanted to see arab civillians killed by the hundreds of thousands but did not want to see American civillians die. There can be no other explanation for this abrupt change of heart.
As for the rest of your post..
Whatever.
I have heard enough of all this Reno bashing to last a lifetime. In my mind the proper response to "we have you surrendered, come out with your hands up" is not "Fuck you motherfucker I have guns and I ain't afraid to use them, come and get me if you can".
1) Those people were under arrest.
2) The police gave them plenty of time to surrender.
3) Their fate was in their hands.
All over the world incredibly brave people fight injustice by getting arrested, tortured and killed in jail. They are brave enough to become martyrs for their causes and are brave enough to die for their causes. These people you talk about didn't even have the guts to get arrested for their cause. If you want to talk about injustice talk to me about Stephen Biko or Nelson Mandella not some whiny ass nutcake like Koresh or some racist mutherfucker like Weaver.
Making these people into some sort of Martyrs is beneath your dignity and besmirches the efforts of people all over the world who fight against injustice and are arrested , tortured or killed in Jail. If Weaver saw one hundredth the hardship Nelson Mandella or Ghandi did he would commit suicide. Mandella survived 27 years in a south African prison finally emerging to lead his country. Koresh wouldn't have made it a week in there.
Once again.
You can not punish a "country". Well you can but then you are absolutely no different then the monsters who blew up those buildings today. They too want to punish a "country" and do it by killing civilians. When (yes when) the US decides to punish whatever country they choose they will do it by killing tens of thousands of civilians just like these terrorists did.
The guilty will walk away untouched. Hussein, Kaddafi, Bin Laden, Arafat, Sharon are all still alive and well despite targeting civilians over and over again.
Like I said Americans are genetically incapable of acting rationally under these circumstances and will indeed kill tens of thousands of civilians and then they will walk around thumping their chests and telling the world what badasses they are. It's in our culture we can't help it. Too bad they can't look in a mirror and realize that they have just committed the exact same "cowardly and evil act" they accused the terrorists of doing.
" the people who live there do not want peace. They want to kill each other, and we - as a nation - are hated and called the "Great Satan" because we would (admittedly for very selfish reasons) like to see people not killing each other."
I agree that people in the middle east want to kill each other. But I disagree that we are hated because want to stop the killing. We are hated because if it wasn't for us Israel could not continue killing palestenians. We fund Israel, we make bombs and give them to israel, we make planes and give them to israel, we make guns and give them to israel, we gather intelligence and give it to israel. We support israel 100 percent in whatever act of ongoing genocide they are undertaking. All we have to do is to say "stop it or else the funding gets cut off" and israel would behave.
In short we are hated because we have taken one side of this conflict. As a result of that the ratio of dead palestenians to dead israelis is about 5 to 1. If Americans acted as an honest broker and held both sides responsible for their actions it would not be hated anymore.
"No matter what the Western nations do, they will never be popular, because we have principles, like human rights, which we champion, but aren't convenient for dictators and fundamentalists. "
/. and your post are already being called for).
Are you seriously suggesting that the western nations don't fund and support dictators and fundamentalists? That we alway act in the good of democracy and human rights? If we held fast to our principles and refused to prop up murderous regimes and refused to fund state supported genocides then people would not hate us so much.
BTW this attack was most likely organized and carried out by no more then a dozen people. You would have to kill enough arabs to make hitler look like a saint to prevent it from happening again. As long as people would rather die then live under your thumb they will commit suicide attacks. You either have to make peace somehow or commit acts of massive genocide. In the case of Germany the people chose to commit genocide I hope the US can resists the calls for racial cleansing that are sure to follow (and from reading
" those responsible for OKC were subjected to the fullest extent of the law. Tim McVeigh was killed, and his accomplice faces life in prison."
Yes this is why our way of life is better then anybody elses. This is why America is decent place to live.
"If McVeigh had been an alien terrorist, and was hiding in a country that refused to extradite him, an act of war to bring him to justice would have been appropriate. "
I really don't think so. Declaring war against a country and the subsequent destruction and killing of people who are in no possible was responsible for the act in question is immoral and just plain wrong. It's the exact same thing tese terrorists did. Killing innocent people to exact some revenge makes you a terrorist and worse makes the United States into a terrorist nation. All those adjectives used to describe these terrorists like Vile, Cowardly etc will apply to you if you decide to take the same route.
I see no reason to sink to their level and to kill innocents civilians. Unfortunately the aftereffects of this will be severe. The terrorists have already accomplished their goals.
1) The public is now officially scared.
2) Americans will lose many freedoms as a result.
3) Americans will be suspicious of other Americans (it's going to suck to be an Arab or a Muslim in this country, if we can avoid concentration camps it will be good).
4) There will be increased military presense in the streets and increased military input into civillian discourse. In others words America will become a more military controlled nation then it was yesterday.
BTW whoever did this was massively funded and massively organized. They had insiders at every juncture. It would nto surprise me one bit if the responsible people were never found out.
For the paranoid bunch there will be speculation about the involvement of the intelligence community (more funding as a result), Israel (getting europe and US off their backs about the palestenians) and maybe even fringe militia groups. If after months of investigation a finger is not pointed at some convenient, weak, and easy to attack target like Castro, Saddam, or khaddafi I would be shocked.
" Then, I think we should retailiate against that group AND the country that is protectiong them"
Once again I think we will indeed retaliate if the country is not the united states. The point is how do you retaliate against a country? If you are the Untied States you simply drop bombs killing innocents as well as whoever you think is guilty. This makes you exactly like the terrorists.
These terrorists are attacking the US citizens because they hold the United States responsible for some act or another. Instead of killing the actual person(s) responsible they kill many civilians in order to "retaliate against a country". Just like you would have us do. If we do that there is no difference between them and us. Two sides of the same coin.
"It looks like we've got to smash somebody. In fact, it looks like the people we'll be hitting are fanatics."
I remember when OKC happened Rush LImbaugh started calling for bombing of "whoever is responsible". Once we found that it was an American and that bombing "whoever is responsible" meant bombing Michigan Rush shut up. I guess killing innocent people is much more palatable in Iran or Iraq then Michigan.
In the end our tendency to look at Arab and Muslim life as basically worthless will determine the scope of the attack. Not the desire to punish the people who are actually guilty. My guess is many many innocent people will die as a result of our retaliation which will make us exactly like the monsters who committed these crimes.
This is a great Idea.
"Plus, do you really want the government handing down technology decisions like this?"
Why not? Doesn't the govt regulate Airplanes, automobiles, telvisions, cigarette lighters, wood products, baby stollers, steaks, vegetables and just about every other product made in the US. Why should the software industry be the only industry to escape from govt standards and regulations?
Or when The governor was actively trying to surpress the black vote.
"So, if the only way I can opperate is illegally, then that's ok in the US, is it? Can I have a green card, now? Please."
In the United States the laws are designed to benefit the rich not to server the public. If you acted in a criminal way you would be jailed. Welcome to America!
The combined market cap of all the bably bells ended up being much higher then what AT&T could have achieved. This is because each had a mini monopoly. Breaking up MS would have had the same result. Each baby bill would have a monopoly which it would use to squash innovation. Each baby bill would then grow unfettered into a bigger company. Of course I am presuming that each baby bill would be run by the same immoral and unethical people but that seems like a likely scenario.
"If MS were completlely let go, I think you;d have the economical equivalent of the L.A. Riots."
Somehow I'd doubt it. Redmond is not a ghetto and MS has plenty of money to keep a massive security force around to crack some skulls. What you may end up seeing however is some people taking the law into their own hands and committing terrorism against the company. Maybe blowing up a building or killing some programmers or something. That seems much more likely because it will happen randomly (no security force can prevent it really) and it can be done by a small cell of highly motivated individuals. It might not even be a deadly assault. Something as simple as a smoke bomb set off just to send a message. Although to be fair you will most likely be punished just as harsh for a smoke bomb as with a real bomb so might as well do some real damage.
"I just think that it opens the floodgates for problems when individual states can make different claims. "
What country do you live in? Do you live in the United States? If so you must be aware of what happened with the tobbacco industry. Like it or not we have state laws and the states can and do impose thier own regulations on just about everything. Why should MS be exempty when R.J Reynolds was not?
In this case you don't even get to pick the fight. MS wins you lose. You fighting with MS is like a grasshopper fighting with the cat that's about to eat it.
/. readers. "
/. readers but for me I would advocate that criminals (those that break laws) go to jail. In this case Bill Gates and his mafia ought to serve jail time for not only breaking the antitrust laws but also for jury tampering, evidence tampering, and perjury. We held an impeachment trial for a sitting president because he lied under oath (supposedly) but Bill Gates is immune. Why is he above the law?
Wether or not you perceive the threat is of no consequence. MS continues it's monopoly and continues to abuse that monopoly to surpress innovation and to punish innovative companies.
In any system there are winners and losers. Even the most oppressive dictatorship or the most corrupt govt has a handful of citizens who benefit greatly while the masses suffer. It may very well be that you are one of those people who benefit from an MS monopoly but the govt should be there to look out for the population as a whole.
"I do think that overblown government breaking companies and dealing new rules left and right is a big danger but that seems to be of no concern for majority of
I can't speak for all the