By the same token it does bother me that people are constantly re-inventing things that have been around for a long time.
I look around and it seems to me like most "new" things in CS have been around for 20 years. Why is everybody so intent on rewriting smalltalk and lisp? Does it seem strange to you that every language eventually starts looking like smalltalk and lisp?
You should say "easier to read then perl" because I don't think it's easier to read then ruby or php or even java. But then again just about anything is easier to read then perl. Perl code looks like it's cursing at you.
I guess that's why it's called vendor lock. It's probably better in these cases to extricate yourself one step at a time. Start with the browser then the office, then the servers, then finally activedirectory and exchange.
I was under the impression that the knoppix installer was given to the debian folks. It's probably in unstable so therefore it will take a while to get into the mainstram.
"Um, because it is a useful tool that lets people get work done."
So what? There are lots of useful tools out there that let people do work. Why this obsession with access? Why not filemaker, approach or even aplha five. All of them are better then access.
" I certainly don't use it for "real" databases, but to imagine that the solution to any data need is to throw MySQL at the assistant purchasing manager or deputy director of personnel because your ideology says MS=BAD is just stupid."
Mysql and access are not competing products. They do completely different things. If I was going to build an app for somebody I certainly would not lock them into MS by doing it with access though. IT's too expensive in the long run.
Knoppix is a great debian installer. Only if it had options so that you didn't have to install the entire frikking thing. It supports all the filesystems and recent kernels.
"I really hope something gives on this situation. Red Hat better think twice before they alienate small to medium businesses. I don't need support. I do need updates. I do need more than 12 months before EOL."
This is a great opportunity for other distributions and companies don't you think? For example red carpet from Ximian/novell is certainly affordable by most small to medium size businesses.
I believe that the US has an official policy of space superiority. India will not be allowed to use their space program for military research. They certainly will not be allowed to actually implement any kind of weaponization of space.
"Did you also offer to write a centralized, shared calendaring package, shared address book, full contact management system and meeting scheduler for them? Or did you just think they used Outlook for email?"
Why write one when you can buy groupwise or notes or better yet Oracle Collab suite. Not only is the Oracle Collab suite 10 times better then exchange but it can also be 100% outsourced.
"Why? Because we install McAfee on the systems and put them on autoupdate."
I don't want to put words in the guy's mouth but...
First of all he is a sysadmin. He can not make purchasing decisions. I don't know how much your Uni paid for McAfee but I bet it wasn't cheap. Chances are that the management did not figure in the cost of an Anti Virus desktop solution when they calculated the TCO for windows. If they have to add that to cost of licensing all other MS software somebody higher up might call them on their boneheaded TCO calculation.
Most IT managers (especially of windows shops) go by the MS line. Windows offers lower TCO because you don't need expensive sysadmins and you don't need expensive hardware. The CIOs don't ever calculate the cost of SMS, anti virus, undelete software, tivoli or some other network monitoring software when they are calculating the TCO. If they were to do that somebody in the organization would laugh at their face.
"Helpful hint number two: never put a PC directly on the wire regardless of OS unless you absolutly must."
You don't have to. A windows PC can get hacked by email and by simply visiting a web site. As I said above most businesses don't pay for SMS (and actually don't even want to deal with the nightmare) so therefore there are literally millions of windows PCs that are easily hackable just by getting them to visit a URL. If you think a $50.00 router will protect you then you are sorely mistaken.
I am curious to know how much that bit of slickery cost you? It's amazing to me that the people who compute TCO for windows never account for the management apps like SMS or NetIQ.
" The Cato institue is a liberitarian think tank."
The cato insitute is a thinly disguised republican fund raising organization. I don't care what they call themselves or how they choose to describe themselves. Actions speak louder then words.
"I think you're missunderstanding how scienctific research works."
I don't think so. I think I understand fully how some scientific research is conducted. While I don't mean to tar all scientists nor all research it's clear to me that some research is clearly paid and bought for to state a desired conclusion.
"So the idea that a scientist will go to a company and say "Give me money and I'll produce the results you want" makes the assumption that the scientist is willing to be dishonest, otherwise they can make no such statement."
"In other words, if you are a climatologist and you don't predict warming, have fun getting funding."
If I was a scientist and wanted to produce research that showed there was no global warming do you think I could get money from Shell or Mobil. Do you think I could get money from Rupert Murdoch? Do you think I could get money from the Cato institue or thosands of republican "think thanks"? DO you think I could get money form the hundreds of millionaires who stand to make a lot of money from burning oil, polluting or whatever?
You bet your ass I can. Look at anybody who has written a book arguing against global warming. Even shoddyly researched non peer reviewed shit like the "Skeptical Environmentalist" sold like hotcakes and made the author a celebirty amongst the right wing talk show circuit. That man is a hero now to every republican.
"You still have to know what the name's likely to be. Given the names of some apps, you're not gonna find it unless you know what you're looking for. Regardless, that's no more "usable" than doing a quick Google search."
So let me get this straight. You want an operating system to install a package even though you have no idea what the name of the package is. I didn't know that windows did that for you. Do you say to windows "I heard there was a file sharing program could you install that for me?" and then have windows install it? Do you really think there is no difference between doing a search on aptitude and doing a search on google? No wonder you have such a hard time with linux, I am surprised you are able to use windows. Hell I am surprised you are able to wipe your own butt. What kind of a person thinks that doing a search on aptitude is like doing a search on google?
"Again, WinZip's not necessary for an exe or an msi, so why do you keep bringing it up? You're trying to compare packages to zip files to prove your point - apples to oranges."
I keep bringing it up for a very important reason. Apparently there are people like you who launch MSI and EXE files directly from the web. Without checking for checksums, without running it through a virus checker or anything. A fact I find astonishing but I suppose predictable given the rest of your post. You have already demonsttrated your superior intellect when you compared aptitude to google.
"I use Mozilla most of the time, which allows me to click "Launch File" after I've downloaded it... but in IE, "Open" suffices. There's not really a difference in security - you're gonna be running the file whether it's saved to your desktop or it's run from your internet temp directory."
Once again a brilliant display of your intellectual capability. You think that launching an exe from the internet is the same thing as installing via apt. This just confirms the depth of your ignorance about the way packages are built, distributed, verified and installed.
"I personally like getting to configure my program before it installs, instead of having to figure out the config text files afterwards. For the average user, that's a hell of a lot easier."
After installing a package debian will ask you a series of questions and configure it for you. I know that this may prove very confusing to a person like you who likes to be asked questions before the package is installed. I also understand how frustrating it is for people like you to open up text files and edit them. I know that it's so hard to do that. It requires that you both read and write.
"Linux programs have licenses too, and I consider the GPL to be a "god awful license" in some ways, too."
You don't have to accept the GPL to use a program. You only need to accept the GPL if you modify the program AND distribute the program. I doubt that someone like you who does not like to edit files would ever modify a program and distribute it. MS programs require a EULA so that you can use the program. I know the distiction is kind of subtle but I am hoping that even someone like can understand it. One is for use the other is for distributing modifications.
"Rebooting after an install hasn't been necessary since Win2000, anyways."
When all else fails you can just lie I guess. I have installed plenty of programs that require a reboot including just about everything I ever installed from Microsoft.
"Thanks for the flame though. Made my day. It also showed what I meant about *nix users & their attitudes."
I am just trying to help you. Please stop using linux. It's not for people like you. You are too sensitive, you are easily confused by tar and make install. Honestly Linux is not for you.
Linux is for people like me, for you there is windows or even better a Mac. I would never give my dad linux but I gladly bought him a Mac. Mac is for people who don't understand computers. That's you!. You don't understand computers and linux is scaring you. Linux users are also pissing you off (and you are pissing them off). Are you a masochist or something? Why subject yourself to that kind of confusion and derision.
To Recap.
1) Get a Mac. Hang out at slashdot and be cool. 2) Get Windows, Hang out at gotdotnet.com or any one of the thousands of MS fan sites and be cool.
Just don't use windows and hang out at slashdot. That's not cool.
I'll use debian as an example becasue it's supposedly the most difficult to use.
"With Linux you first have to find the package name (assuming this particular piece of software comes in package form and not just source code)."
You will see all packages listed in a nice window in aptitude. If you are in command line you can do a apt-cache search packagename
"Maybe you buy it, maybe you go to sourceforge.net and search for it."
Wrong again. You just need to look in your aptitude application.
"Or, you could just click "Open" instead of "Save"."
You did download, install and pay for winzip right? After winzip opens you still have to extract it right? Maybe you are one of those people who run untrusted applications in IE from the web, if that's the case then god help you. either way it's an extra step you don't have to take in linux.
"Next you need to gzunzip it, then you need to untar it. Of course, that's not necessary if it's a package - but unzipping's not needed for an exe or an msi, either."
No need to unzip or untar. Sorry. Unlike and exe or an MSI the packages have checksums and apt checks to make sure the package is unmolested.
"Press "Next". Done!"
Six or seven times. After of course agreeing to some god awful license. If you are lucky then you also get to reboot afterwards.
Slashdot Mirror
By the same token it does bother me that people are constantly re-inventing things that have been around for a long time.
I look around and it seems to me like most "new" things in CS have been around for 20 years. Why is everybody so intent on rewriting smalltalk and lisp? Does it seem strange to you that every language eventually starts looking like smalltalk and lisp?
"Python uses indentation to denote code blocks, rather than curly brackets {} or other methods."
Personally I think this is a flaw and not a feature. One of my pet peeves is scrolling to the end of some function and seeing this.
}
}
}
With python you don't even have that.
I like the php alternative best.
endif;
endwhile;
endforeach;
}
You should say "easier to read then perl" because I don't think it's easier to read then ruby or php or even java. But then again just about anything is easier to read then perl. Perl code looks like it's cursing at you.
I guess that's why it's called vendor lock. It's probably better in these cases to extricate yourself one step at a time. Start with the browser then the office, then the servers, then finally activedirectory and exchange.
I was under the impression that the knoppix installer was given to the debian folks. It's probably in unstable so therefore it will take a while to get into the mainstram.
"Um, because it is a useful tool that lets people get work done."
So what? There are lots of useful tools out there that let people do work. Why this obsession with access? Why not filemaker, approach or even aplha five. All of them are better then access.
" I certainly don't use it for "real" databases, but to imagine that the solution to any data need is to throw MySQL at the assistant purchasing manager or deputy director of personnel because your ideology says MS=BAD is just stupid."
Mysql and access are not competing products. They do completely different things. If I was going to build an app for somebody I certainly would not lock them into MS by doing it with access though. IT's too expensive in the long run.
Knoppix is a great debian installer. Only if it had options so that you didn't have to install the entire frikking thing. It supports all the filesystems and recent kernels.
"I really hope something gives on this situation. Red Hat better think twice before they alienate small to medium businesses. I don't need support. I do need updates. I do need more than 12 months before EOL."
This is a great opportunity for other distributions and companies don't you think? For example red carpet from Ximian/novell is certainly affordable by most small to medium size businesses.
Not to dis BSD but it really is not applicable in this case.
These guys are running oracle, db/2, websphere and such and those products are not certified on BSD.
I believe that the US has an official policy of space superiority. India will not be allowed to use their space program for military research. They certainly will not be allowed to actually implement any kind of weaponization of space.
Most businesses buy the optiplex. Do your calculations with those.
"Did you also offer to write a centralized, shared calendaring package, shared address book, full contact management system and meeting scheduler for them? Or did you just think they used Outlook for email?"
Why write one when you can buy groupwise or notes or better yet Oracle Collab suite. Not only is the Oracle Collab suite 10 times better then exchange but it can also be 100% outsourced.
"Why? Because we install McAfee on the systems and put them on autoupdate."
I don't want to put words in the guy's mouth but...
First of all he is a sysadmin. He can not make purchasing decisions. I don't know how much your Uni paid for McAfee but I bet it wasn't cheap. Chances are that the management did not figure in the cost of an Anti Virus desktop solution when they calculated the TCO for windows. If they have to add that to cost of licensing all other MS software somebody higher up might call them on their boneheaded TCO calculation.
Most IT managers (especially of windows shops) go by the MS line. Windows offers lower TCO because you don't need expensive sysadmins and you don't need expensive hardware. The CIOs don't ever calculate the cost of SMS, anti virus, undelete software, tivoli or some other network monitoring software when they are calculating the TCO. If they were to do that somebody in the organization would laugh at their face.
"Helpful hint number two: never put a PC directly on the wire regardless of OS unless you absolutly must."
You don't have to. A windows PC can get hacked by email and by simply visiting a web site. As I said above most businesses don't pay for SMS (and actually don't even want to deal with the nightmare) so therefore there are literally millions of windows PCs that are easily hackable just by getting them to visit a URL. If you think a $50.00 router will protect you then you are sorely mistaken.
I am curious to know how much that bit of slickery cost you? It's amazing to me that the people who compute TCO for windows never account for the management apps like SMS or NetIQ.
"So why this ridiculous fixation with Access?"
It's a favorite whine of the MS astro turfer.
Access is a piece of shit but the whole MS cult worships it for some reason.
Anybody who runs WebLogic when they have WebObjects is a masochist or a fool or both.
If it wasn't for the lawyers nobody would get anything.
They did all the work they should get most of the money.
It's a well known fact the busy executives have no reading and comprehension skills.
What a funny world we live in when an average person perceives the average businessperson/manager as such a nincompoop.
" The Cato institue is a liberitarian think tank."
The cato insitute is a thinly disguised republican fund raising organization. I don't care what they call themselves or how they choose to describe themselves. Actions speak louder then words.
"I think you're missunderstanding how scienctific research works."
I don't think so. I think I understand fully how some scientific research is conducted. While I don't mean to tar all scientists nor all research it's clear to me that some research is clearly paid and bought for to state a desired conclusion.
"So the idea that a scientist will go to a company and say "Give me money and I'll produce the results you want" makes the assumption that the scientist is willing to be dishonest, otherwise they can make no such statement."
Yes I am indeed making that presumption.
"In other words, if you are a climatologist and you don't predict warming, have fun getting funding."
If I was a scientist and wanted to produce research that showed there was no global warming do you think I could get money from Shell or Mobil. Do you think I could get money from Rupert Murdoch? Do you think I could get money from the Cato institue or thosands of republican "think thanks"? DO you think I could get money form the hundreds of millionaires who stand to make a lot of money from burning oil, polluting or whatever?
You bet your ass I can. Look at anybody who has written a book arguing against global warming. Even shoddyly researched non peer reviewed shit like the "Skeptical Environmentalist" sold like hotcakes and made the author a celebirty amongst the right wing talk show circuit. That man is a hero now to every republican.
"You still have to know what the name's likely to be. Given the names of some apps, you're not gonna find it unless you know what you're looking for. Regardless, that's no more "usable" than doing a quick Google search."
So let me get this straight. You want an operating system to install a package even though you have no idea what the name of the package is. I didn't know that windows did that for you. Do you say to windows "I heard there was a file sharing program could you install that for me?" and then have windows install it? Do you really think there is no difference between doing a search on aptitude and doing a search on google? No wonder you have such a hard time with linux, I am surprised you are able to use windows. Hell I am surprised you are able to wipe your own butt. What kind of a person thinks that doing a search on aptitude is like doing a search on google?
"Again, WinZip's not necessary for an exe or an msi, so why do you keep bringing it up? You're trying to compare packages to zip files to prove your point - apples to oranges."
I keep bringing it up for a very important reason. Apparently there are people like you who launch MSI and EXE files directly from the web. Without checking for checksums, without running it through a virus checker or anything. A fact I find astonishing but I suppose predictable given the rest of your post. You have already demonsttrated your superior intellect when you compared aptitude to google.
"I use Mozilla most of the time, which allows me to click "Launch File" after I've downloaded it... but in IE, "Open" suffices. There's not really a difference in security - you're gonna be running the file whether it's saved to your desktop or it's run from your internet temp directory."
Once again a brilliant display of your intellectual capability. You think that launching an exe from the internet is the same thing as installing via apt. This just confirms the depth of your ignorance about the way packages are built, distributed, verified and installed.
"I personally like getting to configure my program before it installs, instead of having to figure out the config text files afterwards. For the average user, that's a hell of a lot easier."
After installing a package debian will ask you a series of questions and configure it for you. I know that this may prove very confusing to a person like you who likes to be asked questions before the package is installed. I also understand how frustrating it is for people like you to open up text files and edit them. I know that it's so hard to do that. It requires that you both read and write.
"Linux programs have licenses too, and I consider the GPL to be a "god awful license" in some ways, too."
You don't have to accept the GPL to use a program. You only need to accept the GPL if you modify the program AND distribute the program. I doubt that someone like you who does not like to edit files would ever modify a program and distribute it. MS programs require a EULA so that you can use the program. I know the distiction is kind of subtle but I am hoping that even someone like can understand it. One is for use the other is for distributing modifications.
"Rebooting after an install hasn't been necessary since Win2000, anyways."
When all else fails you can just lie I guess. I have installed plenty of programs that require a reboot including just about everything I ever installed from Microsoft.
"Unbelievable. And I'm supposed to trust their methods and products with my enterprise?"
No you are supposed to trust Microsoft and the hundreds of thousands of machines that were cracked in the last couple of days.
"Thanks for the flame though. Made my day. It also showed what I meant about *nix users & their attitudes."
I am just trying to help you. Please stop using linux. It's not for people like you. You are too sensitive, you are easily confused by tar and make install. Honestly Linux is not for you.
Linux is for people like me, for you there is windows or even better a Mac. I would never give my dad linux but I gladly bought him a Mac. Mac is for people who don't understand computers. That's you!. You don't understand computers and linux is scaring you. Linux users are also pissing you off (and you are pissing them off). Are you a masochist or something? Why subject yourself to that kind of confusion and derision.
To Recap.
1) Get a Mac. Hang out at slashdot and be cool.
2) Get Windows, Hang out at gotdotnet.com or any one of the thousands of MS fan sites and be cool.
Just don't use windows and hang out at slashdot. That's not cool.
You have never used linux before have you?
I'll use debian as an example becasue it's supposedly the most difficult to use.
"With Linux you first have to find the package name (assuming this particular piece of software comes in package form and not just source code)."
You will see all packages listed in a nice window in aptitude. If you are in command line you can do a apt-cache search packagename
"Maybe you buy it, maybe you go to sourceforge.net and search for it."
Wrong again. You just need to look in your aptitude application.
"Or, you could just click "Open" instead of "Save"."
You did download, install and pay for winzip right? After winzip opens you still have to extract it right? Maybe you are one of those people who run untrusted applications in IE from the web, if that's the case then god help you. either way it's an extra step you don't have to take in linux.
"Next you need to gzunzip it, then you need to untar it. Of course, that's not necessary if it's a package - but unzipping's not needed for an exe or an msi, either."
No need to unzip or untar. Sorry. Unlike and exe or an MSI the packages have checksums and apt checks to make sure the package is unmolested.
"Press "Next". Done!"
Six or seven times. After of course agreeing to some god awful license. If you are lucky then you also get to reboot afterwards.