"Wrong. You are engaging in the high-risk, low-payoff technique called "straw man," "
Bullshit. This is the cruxs of your argument. you said it many times. The military consists of people, the military is not responsible because of the acts of one person. The exact same scenario applies to gassing the kurds. According to your logic the Iraqi military is not responsible because it consists of many people and one of them dropped gas bombs.
"Unfortunately, the position that are attempting to credit to me isn't my position and never was."
If that was not your position then you should not have said it.
" So you are personally acquainted with employees of the respective organizations? I thought not... "
Although I have met several MS developers and have interacted with several Debian developers via email I would not say that I am "personally aquanted" with any of them.
I am simply judging the intent of these two organizations based on their past behavior.
Well nobody cares about you in your country either. Other then your familiy and few friends nobody really cares about you anyplace. Even then I don't think you'd want to know how much your friends are willing to stand by you if the cops ever questioned them about anything.
"The suggestion that the whole organization is responsible for the bad actions of a single person is specious PER SE."
Man I keep explaining it and ytou keep missing it. Here we go again one last time. If you still don't get it after this then I give up. I will try to make it simple so that you can understand it.
Yes the act was committed by one person.
That person was given the power to pull the funding by the military. Acting as an ordinary citizen that person has as much power as you or me to effect the way the funding is spent.
The person acted in uniform, invoking the name of the military organization, under the power and authority of the military arganization, on the behest of the military, using the funding of the military.
The military did not discipline that person, did not disavov that persons acts of words.
Now you want to absolve the military of all responsibility because you calim this person acted under his own autority. According to your logic the military (or for that matter any organization be it a corporation or a govt) can never be held responsible for any act. If a military bombs a church or hospital the only person to blame is the pilot right? Saddam was not responsible for the gassing of the kurds because it was the fault of the guy who actually dropped the bomb right? We can't blame the iraqi military because that would be collective punishment right?
In this case the military is responsible. If this person was not implementing the will of the military then he should be punished.
"Pay attention. "The military" is not an entity. It cannot approve. It cannot affirm. It cannot think, or reason. It has no brain, no body, no mind."
copout. THis excuses any behavior by the military or any other organization.
"The military is a group. Groups are composed of people. PEOPLE are variable creatures, some good, some bad, the vast majority in the in-between, just trying to get by."
When you put on a uniform you ARE the military. When you act in an official manner you ARE the military. As a person this bozo fascist has no power, the military gave him the power and therefore the military is 100% for how that power is exercized.
"Worst of sins, it involves sloppy thinking."
No it is you who is engaging in sloppy thinking. Read the above sentense four or five times until it sinks in. You can not absolve the military of any responsiblity. What you are saying is that any act can be committed by any member of the military and the military is not responsible.
Once again it proves my point. The military which is worshipped these days as a defender of freedom is itself disdainful of the concept itself. The military does not approve of free speech and therefore will actively seek to punish those people who dare to say things the military does not like.
Right now that punishment consists of pulling funding when they can. In other parts of the world the military will actually go out and kill people it does not like. Maybe one day in the future our military will kill get there.
" The U.S. government can be neither petty nor vengeful. It cannot think. It cannot speak. It has no voice, no body, no brain, no mind."
This is frequently heard copout.
" Some of those people are petty and vengeful, others have self-righteous attitudes about what is right and wrong, some have strict feelings about what is an appropriate thing to say about a paying customer. "
And yet we have laws, regulations, codes of conduct etc. When a goverment official acts within the bounds of their duty they ARE teh govt.
"Military guys funding people with military budgets really don't like it when paid parties say anti-military things."
Military guys don't like hippies either. That does not mean they can punish hippies. Military guys don't like homosexuals either, that does not mean they can do whatever they want to homosexuals. We have rights and freedoms and they apply to all people even people who the military does not like.
"If the DARPA director gets an earful, at that point, it will depend on how much spine this person has as to what happens next. "Fuck off," is an option, but unlikely. Political careers can wane based on a simple "fuck off," and they can wax based on a few verbal blowjobs in exactly the right places."
Nice to know that the people who supposedly are heroes, sho supposedly risk their lives to defend our freedoms think so little of the. Nice to know that if they were in charge our freedoms would be on the chopping block on a whim. Who knew the military was such a anti democratic organization. From your description it sounds like some sort of a cross between fascistims and Monarchy. I guess we should not expect people like that to actually respect other people's freedoms and rights.
"This will give OSS and linux a bit of a bad of name if the pointy-haired types read about it."
I think the opposite will happen. Th pointy headed addle brain CIOs who are unable to make a distinction between a database and n operating system will now have increased respect for OSS.
They will see all this fighting and think to themselves "this is just like Sun and Microsoft or IBM and Microsoft".
Remember the CIOs are some of the stupidest people in the world and for them this will look exactly like MS and it's competitors slinging mud at each other. Hell it's also a lot like democrats and republicans slinging mud at each other. Let's hope those Pinty Haired types don't confuse linux with a political party though or FOX News will get into the act.
The original grant was no given without strings. Sure DARPA had the right to pull the grant but that does not excuse them nor does it make what they did right in any sense of the word.
They decided to punish somebody for disagreeing with them and then daring to speak his mind in public. It was a petty and venegeful act.
This just goes to show you exactly how intolerant and ignorant the US govt is. DARPA should be ashamed of what they did.
"He could have smiled while taking their money"
I for one am glad that he did. He at least exposed the hypocracy of the US govt. In a country which respected peoples rights Theo would have been able to speak out his mind and still continue to do his valuable work. Alas the US is not that country.
If that was the case don't you think they would have said so. It seems to me if there was an even a halfway honorable reason they funding was pulled they would have gave a reason.
It's much more likely the US didn't approve of Theo exercizing his freedom to say whatever he wants.
"And then they threw dung at the guys in the suits paying for the party. Brilliant. Why should anyone at all be shocked that DARPA took their ball and went home?"
In what way did he throw dung at DARPA?
"Why should anyone at all be shocked that DARPA took their ball and went home?""
Here is why. If freedom is important for the iraqis why isn't it important for Theo? We will go to war so that iraqis can say whatever they want but we punish canadians who say what they want.
Christians are a pretty weird lot. Have you heard that they are giving money to jews to move back to israel? Apparently it's a prerequisite for jesus coming back. When Jesus comes back he is going to take all the christians to heaven and kill everybody else (including the jews!).
"GE may be helpful, but it's not magic bullet in terms of preventing famine."
In fact it may make the problem worse if poor people can not afford the seeds. Some of these GM foods are one time use only, that is you can't harvest seeds from your crop to plant again next year.
Bush hates germany and france almost as much as he hates the arabs. If you think germany safe from US bombs you are mistaken.
It amazes me that people in germany or france or any european country would buy anything made in america. Don't they realize they are funding their own destruction?
"It's called an interim government, just like the one in Afghanistan."
Ah yes the interim govt. How long has it been since we installed karzai? All that time and they still don't even have a constitution let alone any elections.
"Once things are stable, and a small minority aren't trying to disrupt life for the majority, they will have open and free elections."
Yes, once all dissent has been squashed then we can have an election. There is no sense in having elections unless there is going to be 100% agreement or at least till people have a choice of US puppets to choose from.
"It took time in Japan and Germany, too, or do you consider those simple puppet regimes? "
Oh I suppose we can wait a decade or so in iraq too.
" Anyway, I notice how you never bothered to address things such as where you were getting your high casuality numbers, or the fact that the American people (And thus their government) changes all the time. A few members of the President's staff aren't the entire government."
Unfortunately I live in the USA which does not have free press. I am not allowed to know how many are killed by my govt. So we all have to guess. For example it's widely reported that more then ten thousand iraqi civillians have been wounded in some way. I think it's safe to presume that at least that many iraqi soldiers died since we were not supposedly targeting civilians in the first place. Also before the war Iraqs army was reported to be over 300,000 with over 80,000 members of the republican guard. Just yesterday I heard General Franks say that they had captured 4000 prisoners of war. Well what happened to the rest of them?
The figures are sketchy. US reported over three thousand died during the invasion of bagdad. Since the fighting in basra lasted much longer and was much more intense it makes sense that at least three times as many people died there.
No matter how you look at it well over ten thousand people died trying to prevent the US from invading their country.
I wish we had free press that was willing to report the realities of this war though. It sure would be nice.
" The United States government (and the people it represents) changes daily to some degree, and over 15 years, quite a bit. Presidents change, Congress changes, people are born, and people die. We should be able to work to correct mistakes previous people have made, otherwise we're stuck only continuing what's been done. "
Let's see now. The Iran-Iraq war and the gassing of the kurds happened during the Reagan administration. People like Cheney, rumsfeld, wolfowitz, baker were all in that administration. There was even a Bush!.
So you are wrong there. President changed but his core staff didn't. The puppetmasters stayed the same.
"Letting the Iraqi people rule themselves is not installing a puppet. Some people are so cynical."
You remember seeing all those Kuwaitis we freed voting for their president? Me neither.
You remember seeing all those afghanis voting for their president? Me neither.
You remember the assassination attempt on Karzai? The one where the only reason he survived was because he was being guarded by elite US special ops personell? Yea me too.
You remember the Bush speech in which he said "we will pick the new administration of Iraq and not the UN". Well I do and you can look it up if you'd like.
cynical my ass. Just open your eyes and look around you.
Slashdot Mirror
The tax code does not have to be flat to be simplified.
"Wrong. You are engaging in the high-risk, low-payoff technique called "straw man," "
Bullshit. This is the cruxs of your argument. you said it many times. The military consists of people, the military is not responsible because of the acts of one person. The exact same scenario applies to gassing the kurds. According to your logic the Iraqi military is not responsible because it consists of many people and one of them dropped gas bombs.
"Unfortunately, the position that are attempting to credit to me isn't my position and never was."
If that was not your position then you should not have said it.
" So you are personally acquainted with employees of the respective organizations? I thought not... "
Although I have met several MS developers and have interacted with several Debian developers via email I would not say that I am "personally aquanted" with any of them.
I am simply judging the intent of these two organizations based on their past behavior.
When MS talks about trusted computing you can pretty much assume it's mostly marketing.
When the people at debian talk about trusted computing you can pretty much assume they are serious about putting together a solid and secure system.
It has the do with the character of the people making the annoucement.
Well nobody cares about you in your country either. Other then your familiy and few friends nobody really cares about you anyplace. Even then I don't think you'd want to know how much your friends are willing to stand by you if the cops ever questioned them about anything.
"The suggestion that the whole organization is responsible for the bad actions of a single person is specious PER SE."
Man I keep explaining it and ytou keep missing it. Here we go again one last time. If you still don't get it after this then I give up. I will try to make it simple so that you can understand it.
Yes the act was committed by one person.
That person was given the power to pull the funding by the military. Acting as an ordinary citizen that person has as much power as you or me to effect the way the funding is spent.
The person acted in uniform, invoking the name of the military organization, under the power and authority of the military arganization, on the behest of the military, using the funding of the military.
The military did not discipline that person, did not disavov that persons acts of words.
Now you want to absolve the military of all responsibility because you calim this person acted under his own autority. According to your logic the military (or for that matter any organization be it a corporation or a govt) can never be held responsible for any act. If a military bombs a church or hospital the only person to blame is the pilot right? Saddam was not responsible for the gassing of the kurds because it was the fault of the guy who actually dropped the bomb right? We can't blame the iraqi military because that would be collective punishment right?
In this case the military is responsible. If this person was not implementing the will of the military then he should be punished.
"Pay attention. "The military" is not an entity. It cannot approve. It cannot affirm. It cannot think, or reason. It has no brain, no body, no mind."
copout. THis excuses any behavior by the military or any other organization.
"The military is a group. Groups are composed of people. PEOPLE are variable creatures, some good, some bad, the vast majority in the in-between, just trying to get by."
When you put on a uniform you ARE the military. When you act in an official manner you ARE the military. As a person this bozo fascist has no power, the military gave him the power and therefore the military is 100% for how that power is exercized.
"Worst of sins, it involves sloppy thinking."
No it is you who is engaging in sloppy thinking. Read the above sentense four or five times until it sinks in. You can not absolve the military of any responsiblity. What you are saying is that any act can be committed by any member of the military and the military is not responsible.
" Imagine the following scenario:"
Once again it proves my point. The military which is worshipped these days as a defender of freedom is itself disdainful of the concept itself. The military does not approve of free speech and therefore will actively seek to punish those people who dare to say things the military does not like.
Right now that punishment consists of pulling funding when they can. In other parts of the world the military will actually go out and kill people it does not like. Maybe one day in the future our military will kill get there.
" The U.S. government can be neither petty nor vengeful. It cannot think. It cannot speak. It has no voice, no body, no brain, no mind."
This is frequently heard copout.
" Some of those people are petty and vengeful, others have self-righteous attitudes about what is right and wrong, some have strict feelings about what is an appropriate thing to say about a paying customer. "
And yet we have laws, regulations, codes of conduct etc. When a goverment official acts within the bounds of their duty they ARE teh govt.
"Military guys funding people with military budgets really don't like it when paid parties say anti-military things."
Military guys don't like hippies either. That does not mean they can punish hippies. Military guys don't like homosexuals either, that does not mean they can do whatever they want to homosexuals. We have rights and freedoms and they apply to all people even people who the military does not like.
"If the DARPA director gets an earful, at that point, it will depend on how much spine this person has as to what happens next. "Fuck off," is an option, but unlikely. Political careers can wane based on a simple "fuck off," and they can wax based on a few verbal blowjobs in exactly the right places."
Nice to know that the people who supposedly are heroes, sho supposedly risk their lives to defend our freedoms think so little of the. Nice to know that if they were in charge our freedoms would be on the chopping block on a whim. Who knew the military was such a anti democratic organization. From your description it sounds like some sort of a cross between fascistims and Monarchy. I guess we should not expect people like that to actually respect other people's freedoms and rights.
"Welcome to the world of politics."
Not politics, military.
Do a google search on mysql VS Postgres.
"This will give OSS and linux a bit of a bad of name if the pointy-haired types read about it."
I think the opposite will happen. Th pointy headed addle brain CIOs who are unable to make a distinction between a database and n operating system will now have increased respect for OSS.
They will see all this fighting and think to themselves "this is just like Sun and Microsoft or IBM and Microsoft".
Remember the CIOs are some of the stupidest people in the world and for them this will look exactly like MS and it's competitors slinging mud at each other. Hell it's also a lot like democrats and republicans slinging mud at each other. Let's hope those Pinty Haired types don't confuse linux with a political party though or FOX News will get into the act.
Oh yea use mysql instead. Now there is a mature user base that never get involved in flame wars.
Then I guess you agree with me. The US govt is a petty and vengeful entity all too happy to punish people for exercizing their freedoms.
You dodged my question.
How did he throw dung on DARPA.
Also.
The original grant was no given without strings. Sure DARPA had the right to pull the grant but that does not excuse them nor does it make what they did right in any sense of the word.
They decided to punish somebody for disagreeing with them and then daring to speak his mind in public. It was a petty and venegeful act.
This just goes to show you exactly how intolerant and ignorant the US govt is. DARPA should be ashamed of what they did.
"He could have smiled while taking their money"
I for one am glad that he did. He at least exposed the hypocracy of the US govt. In a country which respected peoples rights Theo would have been able to speak out his mind and still continue to do his valuable work. Alas the US is not that country.
If that was the case don't you think they would have said so. It seems to me if there was an even a halfway honorable reason they funding was pulled they would have gave a reason.
It's much more likely the US didn't approve of Theo exercizing his freedom to say whatever he wants.
"And then they threw dung at the guys in the suits paying for the party. Brilliant. Why should anyone at all be shocked that DARPA took their ball and went home?"
In what way did he throw dung at DARPA?
"Why should anyone at all be shocked that DARPA took their ball and went home?""
Here is why. If freedom is important for the iraqis why isn't it important for Theo? We will go to war so that iraqis can say whatever they want but we punish canadians who say what they want.
Don't those canadians have a socialist health care system?
Don't they speak french?
Didn't a canadian win the masters?
Man how may reasons do you need! Socialist french speaking people who stole the masters from the US. Who would want to fund them.
1) Kill and conquer the arabs
2) take over the oil wells
3) Award reconstruction contracts to your buddies
4) PROFIT!!!
Christians are a pretty weird lot. Have you heard that they are giving money to jews to move back to israel? Apparently it's a prerequisite for jesus coming back. When Jesus comes back he is going to take all the christians to heaven and kill everybody else (including the jews!).
What an odd belief system.
"GE may be helpful, but it's not magic bullet in terms of preventing famine."
In fact it may make the problem worse if poor people can not afford the seeds. Some of these GM foods are one time use only, that is you can't harvest seeds from your crop to plant again next year.
Bush hates germany and france almost as much as he hates the arabs. If you think germany safe from US bombs you are mistaken.
It amazes me that people in germany or france or any european country would buy anything made in america. Don't they realize they are funding their own destruction?
Because everybody dies.
"Perhaps because they don't have a President? "
Yes. They are monarchy.
"It's called an interim government, just like the one in Afghanistan."
Ah yes the interim govt. How long has it been since we installed karzai? All that time and they still don't even have a constitution let alone any elections.
"Once things are stable, and a small minority aren't trying to disrupt life for the majority, they will have open and free elections."
Yes, once all dissent has been squashed then we can have an election. There is no sense in having elections unless there is going to be 100% agreement or at least till people have a choice of US puppets to choose from.
"It took time in Japan and Germany, too, or do you consider those simple puppet regimes? "
Oh I suppose we can wait a decade or so in iraq too.
" Anyway, I notice how you never bothered to address things such as where you were getting your high casuality numbers, or the fact that the American people (And thus their government) changes all the time. A few members of the President's staff aren't the entire government."
Unfortunately I live in the USA which does not have free press. I am not allowed to know how many are killed by my govt. So we all have to guess. For example it's widely reported that more then ten thousand iraqi civillians have been wounded in some way. I think it's safe to presume that at least that many iraqi soldiers died since we were not supposedly targeting civilians in the first place. Also before the war Iraqs army was reported to be over 300,000 with over 80,000 members of the republican guard. Just yesterday I heard General Franks say that they had captured 4000 prisoners of war. Well what happened to the rest of them?
The figures are sketchy. US reported over three thousand died during the invasion of bagdad. Since the fighting in basra lasted much longer and was much more intense it makes sense that at least three times as many people died there.
No matter how you look at it well over ten thousand people died trying to prevent the US from invading their country.
I wish we had free press that was willing to report the realities of this war though. It sure would be nice.
Yes those facts can be bitch.
" The United States government (and the people it represents) changes daily to some degree, and over 15 years, quite a bit. Presidents change, Congress changes, people are born, and people die. We should be able to work to correct mistakes previous people have made, otherwise we're stuck only continuing what's been done. "
Let's see now. The Iran-Iraq war and the gassing of the kurds happened during the Reagan administration. People like Cheney, rumsfeld, wolfowitz, baker were all in that administration. There was even a Bush!.
So you are wrong there. President changed but his core staff didn't. The puppetmasters stayed the same.
"Letting the Iraqi people rule themselves is not installing a puppet. Some people are so cynical."
You remember seeing all those Kuwaitis we freed voting for their president? Me neither.
You remember seeing all those afghanis voting for their president? Me neither.
You remember the assassination attempt on Karzai? The one where the only reason he survived was because he was being guarded by elite US special ops personell? Yea me too.
You remember the Bush speech in which he said "we will pick the new administration of Iraq and not the UN". Well I do and you can look it up if you'd like.
cynical my ass. Just open your eyes and look around you.