I think I've also chosen to make my life about me and not about other people except for those closest to me; namely, my family, and I spend a lot of time pleasing them and trying to help make them into better people. But it's because I chose to love them, and thus, it really is about me. I don't see this as destructive at all. In fact, it sounds very much like what you've chosen to do, so you and I are in agreement.
I also think that people can be destructively egocentric and just as happy as I am. Maybe you have played an MMORPG and seen the sheer sadistic delight that some people get in torturing other people. I hate those assholes. I think they are psychopaths.
Never leaving the house is pretty much true. I quit my IT job about nine months ago and now I'm a stay-at-home dad for the most part. But while my son is at school I get on the phone and do cold-calls. I'm a sales weasel, in other words. So the part about me not having to put up with idiot co-workers is also true. Instead, I have to put up with frustrating gate-keepers and business owners whose egos can eclipse the sun. I don't have a large bank account and the economy is hurting us badly, but I count my blessings and are well-aware that I've lived a life better than that lived by the majority of humans. It is the real world. I don't know what it would take to get you to recognize it as such. I'm sorry yours sucks so badly. It must be impossibly frustrating.
I don't think that movies were the worst possible source of information. I mean, you could have had movies made in your own country which were designed to slander America and make up complete falsehoods about American culture.
You see, we prefer the lies told about us to be told by good, patriotic Americans.:)
Anyway, all stereotypes are grounded in truth. Jocks and beautiful girls are at the top of the social ladder, and that continues well into college and into the larger culture. You would not believe the cult that surrounds football (and I'm not talking about soccer, and I refuse in the most bigoted and stubborn American way possible to call soccer "football"). Well, at least our football cult doesn't have neo-nazis and communists throwing broken bottles at each other, so maybe you understand a "football cult" better than I do.
I have been out of high school for a while now, so I can definitely say that I'm surprised that all of the geeky aspects of my high school days are now being made into major motion pictures. So I would hope that things are getting better. In truth, I'm sure it's the same. The beautiful and charismatic will be on the top while the inept and ugly will be on the bottom.
I'd love to hear more about that time in your life, when you suddenly realized that you could influence people. It came from self-esteem, of course, which is summed up in your saying that you were "better than everyone".
I agree that most people aren't worth socializing with, but the world doesn't revolve around me. It breaks my heart when good people are lonely because everyone deserves companionship.
Did you read what that other AC wrote: "That's also why they're so easy to troll."?
He's exactly right. Furries are easy to abuse because they've already been shit on so much that they reflexively adopt the "victim stance" which only invites more abuse.
Furthermore, the internet makes consequence-free abuse merely a click away. As a gay man, I know this quite well. The singlemost effective defense against gay-bashing can be summed up in two words: concealed carry. Unfortunately, that doesn't work so well on the Internet.
Yes, they are better off dead because they do nothing but drag intelligent people down.
Certainly those people have people who love them and depend on them, people who enjoy spending time with them, families to care for. Is all of that disposable?
Suffered a great injustice? Meh.
What would you do if you could set things right again? I know you have some thoughts on this.
Just go out and be around these people in your daily life (whether it's them wasting your time at the bank, the grocery store, because they're too wrapped up in putting on makeup to drive their car on the road, etc) and you should quickly realize my disdain for them.
I used to feel that way, but I'm a lot more benevolent nowadays. Suffice it to say that I understand how you feel. The only people that I hold in contempt are those people who actively try to deprive other people of life, liberty, or property through force or fraud. Rapists, murderers, welfare bums, people like that.
I would recommend joining a fraternity or sorority. Being part of the Greek community exposes you to a huge range of different personality types. Going Greek was one of the best decisions I ever made.
That's a good option for those who have enough money and are beautiful enough. Furthermore, you already have to have some degree of social power to be even considered. People who are ugly, inept, and poor are not welcome to join the "real" greek system.
High school is a completely different atmosphere. The biggest culture shock is going from high school to the real world (I never been to a "real" college, but that's a different discussion), where everyone ISN'T an asshole, who spreads rumors behind everyone's backs. I found it so funny how even best friends would talk behind each others backs.
If I had a choice, and knew of other options, I wouldn't have gone to high school. Hell, I recommend that anyone with children to tell them to take the GED and head for college. High school teaches you NOTHING about social interaction or "finding your own identity". The only thing it shows you is that people will do anything to become cool or popular, much like some places online (which are more than likely frequented by high school students anyways).
High school is perhaps one of the worst times in your life, and if you think it's the best time... then try looking at some of the "popular" kids 10-20 years later. I'm not saying high school isn't fun though, but don't bother looking for acceptance from other kids.
High school for some is a wonderful, fun time of the last remnants of childhood. That's the experience from those who are on the top of the heap.
For people like you, it is hell, and many people arrogantly and cruelly assume that high school, in spite of the abuse that goes on within it, is just "part of growing up". It doesn't have to be. If my own child ends up on the bottom of the heap in high school, then I will not put him through that hell. Abuse is NOT a required part of maturity.
I hope that you can find healing from your wounds.
I realize from your posts that you're horribly wrapped up in your ego and think everyone else is, but I'm not (can't speak for others).
I think you're right about me being wrapped up in my own ego, though we may disagree on the degree ("horribly"? what are you implying?). Is there someone else's ego that you would prefer I be wrapped up in? Yours, perhaps?
However, I despise those people because they're completely useless and have nothing of value to offer the world.
That is incredibly critical. "[C]ompletely useless", "nothing of value". Better off dead, in other words? You must have suffered a great injustice to be so spiteful.
The reason I mentioned logic was because that was what the person you originally responded to was talking about. I guess you should apply your amazing talents and actually read the post you respond to. =D
I wasn't interested in replying to the logic part since one can learn logic through simple observation. Math, however, takes hard work, and I thought that was germane to the resentment that OP had shown toward those whom he though had unfairly earned life's blessings.
However, all the idiots in Hollywood, at the jock table, the cheerleaders, etc ARE capable of learning basic math and logic, they CHOOSE not to because "it's not cool" and since for so many people (at least in the Western world) their goal is to be cool, they choose to be morons....and we all see where that's leading our society....
I was only talking about math, not logic. (Speaking of which, I don't think people need a class to understand cause and effect.)
True, some people avoid math because of it's uncoolness, which is justified since math is often a refuge of acceptance for those who don't win social approval but still require companionship (as all humans do). The real reason why those people you despise choose to eschew math is because math is not required for them to succeed. Furthermore, your approval is also not required for them to succeed. They can safely ignore both you and all of your hard work and suffer no ill effects to their quality of life whatsoever. I completely understand why you hate them.
A book which you might find interesting is called "The Chosen: The Hidden History of Admission and Exclusion at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton" by Jerome Karabel.
It's called "parties" and "extracurricular activities" and "sports" and the millions of other opportunities that college provides.
(For the record I'm not trying to troll...just give me a sec.)
My freshman year of college, I spent a lot of time in my dorm room. I played around on my computer, I studied (a lot), and...that's about it. Yeah, I did a little martial arts here and there, but not really. I didn't have any friends to speak of.
Then, after a good kick in the pants by this guy called "Life," I realized I was wasting a very valuable experience. So, I put down the books (sometimes), shut down my computer, and I went out and experienced life. It was, without a doubt, the best decision I ever made. I forced myself into social situations which I was uncomfortable in. I made myself apply for an RA position just so I would be forced into more social situations.
Without going into too much detail, it paid off. For those of you in college, take advantage of everything that it provides. You don't necessarily get those type of opportunities once you leave.
You did it, congratulations! You should feel proud of yourself, because you accomplished what many people fail to do and continue to suffer from.
When you first started meeting people, did you feel inadequate and scared?
After you were rewarded for your successful social interactions, did you feel better about yourself, more capable?
To me, you represent a person who took risks, was rewarded for hard work, and gained self-esteem as a result of it.
The only part of your story that I disagree with is when you say that "you don't necessarily get those types of opportunities once you leave". You will always be a social creature and will always have the opportunity to gain self-esteem. You just probably won't have the free-wheeling, hooking-up party atmosphere of college that really isn't representative of responsible adult life anyway.
For example, say you are a born classical musician, and are quite good. They would say you are cultured and have everything life needs. YET, if the same happened to a mathematician, well then they are not balanced.
Really? Not knowing how to calculate yourself out of a wet paper bag is balanced?
Not all humans are mathematically-inclined, or even intelligent enough to understand basic math concepts.
All humans are social creatures, from you all the way down the world's stupidest. "Cultured" is the term that people use to describe those who are best at winning approval from others. I understand why you resent it and hold those people in contempt. They didn't have to work nearly as hard as you had to work, and yet they have more than you do. It hurts.
At very bottom rung of the self-esteem ladder is furries. No matter who you are or what you are into, you will be accepted into a furry community. It's a great big love-fest over there. It's no surprise that there are so many gay guys and nerdy guys among furries: both of them have traditionally had their self-esteem utterly ruined by the time they graduate high school. The furry community provides them with a perfect escape from the hell world they've grown up in -- this escape is a fantasy world where everyone loves them.
The reason why nerds have that weird behavior is because they can get away with it. This is because they essentially have nothing to lose, and the capital that I'm referring to here is acceptance and validation by his peers. Since he knows he would never "get anywhere" with them anyway, he has no incentive to have the hygiene or tact that you mention.
If his self-esteem is even lower, then he claims those "outsider" social trappings (emo/goth) as part of his identity. This is a way for outsiders to gain companionship, but, inside, many of them want out.
The only way for an individual to gain self-esteem is to earn it. It can't be given to him by teachers who hand out "Good Job!" stickers to all students regardless of effort. An individual has to meet people, make friends, take chances, stand up for himself, refuse to be abused, be positive, and be funny. If he's rewarded for that behavior with more friends, then he gains self-esteem.
High school teaches us nerds all the wrong things about human interaction. Being punished for our choices drives us farther into seclusion and "nerdy" behavior.
Teaching "social skills" won't fix anything. Instead, send people to therapy and help them find ways to rebuild their destroyed self-esteem. Telling a nerd, "Bathe every once in a while!" is not going to do him any good if, inside, he says to himself: "I'm not worth the effort."
My self-esteem was destroyed when I was 12. It took me until I was 34 to earn it back.
And saying "no" is not something that geeks enjoy, because it takes a certain ability to withstand emotional games that geeks aren't good at. A common reason that geeks (including me) are attracted to scientific and technical endeavors is that we're socially a bit obtuse and aren't good at getting other people to appreciate us. We yearn for objective and scrupulously fair evaluation. We don't want to argue about our performance; we want it to speak for ourselves. It's even better to be alone with the computer: the computer is scrupulously fair.
We try to excuse ourselves from normal social maneuvering and rely entirely on our intelligence, competence, and ultimately, our good work. Unfortunately, that doesn't work when dealing with people who are angry, fearful, and willing to trample other people. And who isn't willing to trample on the lowly IT geek? Who isn't angry and fearful in an IT crisis?
When a geek encounters aggression, unfair accusations, and outrageous demands, his response to the social stress is to withdraw (leaving the accusations unchallenged) and fall back on his technical skills (by working overtime to fix the problem.)
The geek might try to stick up for himself by using facts and logic, but his aggressor will just become more aggressive and insulting. The aggressor understands the audience (bystanders and management) better than the geek and is able to snow them with indignation and misrepresentation, leaving the geek feeling shamed, embarrassed, and sorry that he stuck up for himself. What is his refuge? Demonstrating his ability with a scrupulously fair audience: the computer. So he works overtime to fix things for the guy who just abused him.
I've never worked an IT job, but I've experienced this as a software developer for a very small company. I no longer work there, and they still pay me a retainer and frequent consulting fees because they haven't managed to entirely replace me:-) Line up a better job and QUIT! Easier said than done, I know. Good luck to everyone stuck in that position. Read a few books like this one, work on sticking up for yourself, and keep it cool.
What you are describing is the effects of a lack of self esteem. The computer is fair in the way that a human being is unfair. Computers have no malice and no desire to see others suffer or submit. Nerds withdraw as a "third way" when the other two are "stand up for yourself" and "cower".
It took me a long, long time to understand this. I learned all of the wrong lessons about social interaction when I was younger. Diving into IT was a way for me to cope with the wrong lessons I learned and the destroyed self esteem that resulted from it. I can't tell you how awesome it feels to walk into a party of strangers and turn on my personality and own the room, making everyone laugh and look up to me even if I'm the shortest guy in the room. Making 200 computers bend to my will gives a rush, but a rush that is one one-millionth the feeling of making 50 people look up to me. That's real power.
* Its people tend to be non-confrontational; "wimps", as the high school jocks called us. We tend not to stand-up for ourselves and fight for our rights and our free time and dignity and self-respect.
True dat.
The inability to stand up for oneself, which is to say, the ability to resist someone dominating and abusing you, is an direct outgrowth of self esteem. And I'm not talking about the liberal view of self esteem which praises children regardless of their accomplishments or lack thereof. I'm talking about self esteem which comes from working hard, making good choices, and reaping the rewards. And the hard work and good choices I'm referring to are the ones associated with successful human interaction.
IT creates a culture in which a person can dissolve into the world of networks and computers and not be forced to talk to people. Do you know any nerds that have bad "social skills"? Do you know any nerds that are conditioned to react with sarcasm and derision as a means of self-defense? (Cue someone to cite the exception that proves the rule, see also: nerd defensiveness.)
You may already realize this, but wetware hacking with IT is dangerous.
Is also dangerous when hacking wetware is done with the retail industry, the medical industry, or politics. In fact, there is no human endeavor which is not completely infested with it. It is the way that humans operate. Those who figure out how to do it wield more power than those who don't.
It also helps to be taller than other people and strikingly beautiful. Isn't it interesting that the IT world is much more tolerant of the obese and hideous? As a sales guy, it's important to be good-looking if I'm actually meeting people, but it's more important to be "like" the owner (same nationality, same language, same accent, same religion, etc.) and to make the owner feel like he's smarter than me.
When I get a call from someone who is trying to pretend they know something, I'm immediately suspicious. Once in a while they turn out to be legitimate, but usually they go into the Indefinite Hold group.
Most IT people I talk to are suspicious and passive-aggressive. I think it's because they view salespeople as the scum of the earth, people who are "pretending that they know something" as an innate part of their essence.
Claiming prior experience with my boss or a boss above is pretty much a straight trip to the "Send them to voicemail" queue.
I'll say here that what I sell is likely something that you'll never have to consider, so I'm not the salesperson that would end up ever talking to you. I sell camera surveillance systems, primarily to the restaurant and retail industries. The reason that I sometimes talk to IT people is because the Owner / CEO sometimes says, "Our IT group handles security, so you need to talk to...." And I cringe. Surveillance is part of operations, not IT, so this comes down to a case of lazy/luddite owner syndrome. (Oh my God, it has cables! Quick, get the IT guy!)
But perhaps your words partially explain why I sometimes don't get anywhere with the IT guy. My voice mail to him would say, "I talked to (the Owner) and he told me that you handled security, so...." And maybe that makes him suspicious because I'm "claiming prior experience". What do you suppose I should say to the IT guy to indicate that I want to give him an honest pitch? What a pinch it is to know that I worked my way up to the CEO to learn that, by doing so, I/dev/nulled myself to the IT guy.
That caution noted, I welcome calls from sales people who have done their homework and are willing to give me an honest pitch. I'm expecting a call from a vendor who sells IT training later this month, who has taken the time to find out what we do, what we might be interested in and is willing to wait until I can spend the time to re-pitch his information to my boss.
That's why you are called a "gatekeeper" -- the guy I have to get through in order to talk to the person who can actually make a decision. Some gatekeepers are well-trained and awesome at it while others suck at it and will give me the owner's cell phone number when I ask for it. When I finally talk to the owner, it's a very different experience from talking to an gatekeeper. The gatekeeper's default response is, "go fuck yourself." The owner's response will depend on his business situation, something the gatekeeper is ignorant of 99% of the time. (If it's an IT guy, then they are sometimes proudly ignorant of it.) So the owner's response will be "yes", "not right now", or "much later". Sometimes he's a dick (and I have yet to meet a female owner), in which case the whole company sucks and I move on.
You sound like an awesome gatekeeper.
I'm looking forward to the potential to get training I need and it is because the vendor took the time to find out what we might be interested in and didn't try to BS me in order to convince me that
I worked b2b IT cold-calling in the UK too (you aren't based just outside Reading by any chance?), it was the most soul-destroying job I've ever had! All that mattered was the number of calls you made that day, the number of potential opportunities you made and the number you closed. The bosses cared absolutely nothing about how you were doing outside those stats.
I'm a Yank and based in the US. My sister lives in London. (Though, as a Southerner, I have to overcome the natural revulsion when someone calls me a "Yank". They don't mean it that way, honestly, they don't.) Yes, most sales jobs are horrible. And you're right, the only thing important in sales is sales. Period. And that's the way it should be. What makes a sales company bad is when they have ways of not paying salespeople their commissions. This is what my sister faces. After the quarter, there will be all these exceptions and loopholes that justify her NOT getting the bonus. That is what is soul-destroying, and lots of sales orgs do that. But I've seen even worse than that. But when you find a good one, which is where I am now, then it's awesome. It all depends on the character of the CEO. If he's a good guy, then he'll set the tone of the culture and it makes all the difference.
I spent all day manipulating people down the phone till I got to talk to the head of the IT department, then trying to manipulate him into buying whatever crap I was selling that day.
What, exactly, qualifies as "manipulating"? I have my own definition of it, which is to exploit bugs in the human brain. If you want to read more about that, read the book Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. I don't do that. Since our business model is a subscription service and depends on our subscribers NOT cancelling, it's not like we can bait-and-switch anyway. It goes back to what I said about a good company. You have to feel proud of what you're selling.
Whilst some people are happy to do their job and take home their pay check, I prefer to have something for my mind to work on. I couldn't take the mind-numbing boredom of it all in the end and soon quit to go travelling. When I came back I got a proper IT job and it's been a dream! There's little direct repetition, I get to work on interesting projects a lot of the time and most of all I don't have any hard and fast targets foisted on me (like make X number of calls per day).
I remember those feelings well. I also remember the bad parts of the IT job: supporting someone else's horrible code, supporting someone else's horrible legacy code, supporting stupid people, trying to figure out what to say to the non-technical boss who doesn't "get it", etc. You know what I mean.
But the puzzle parts of IT are fun. The parts of getting better efficiency and seeing a complex system start working and standing back in awe of it all. That was beautiful.
I have just one job requirement: Make the IT system run well. Do that and my work life goes perfectly.
I think that's the proper mind-set for an IT worker. It guarantees that they'll be totally focused on their own task, which is more complex than any other part of the business. It generally means that IT workers tend to be ignorant of how the business runs. That's why it chafes me when lazy owners put business decisions in the hands of IT workers who don't understand the business.
It also really chafes me when I know more about IT than the IT worker I'm talking to! It's almost impossible for them to believe me when they're wrong about something, and if they realize it, they will never admit that they were wrong about it! Instead of being forced to admit that they were shown up by a slimy salesperson, they choose to withdraw and become extremely passive-aggressive.
Your comments reek of a know-it-all ego. First off you speak like all in IT have an ego. Farthest from the truth.
I will refute your anecdotal evidence with some anecdotal evidence of my own.
I used to be in IT. Specifically, I was a programmer. It felt natural and fun and really stroked my own inherent nerdiness. (Additionally, it was a way to insulate myself from having to be in uncomfortable social situations, but that's not really germane to the subject at hand...)
I left IT last March and have since been in sales. Now I spend much of my day talking to strangers on the phone. In other words, I am doing cold-calling. How am I doing? Well, the web app I wrote that tracks the results of my calls tells me that I have made 4063 calls since then with 703 conversation with "decision makers". Additionally, I have only had one person hang up on me.
It is a very, very, very different world here in sales. It's touchy feely, talky, and decidedly NON geeky. Well, there is a slight geeky side to it, but it's psychological and thus a "soft science". So I don't consider it to be true geek.
Where is this going? Well, since I'm doing b2b and providing a technological service, I occasionally run into business owners who tell me, "Our IT department handles that, you need to talk to them." I have to tell you, that's poison to my ears when I hear that. Why? It's because IT workers view me unconditionally as some stupid uppity sales weasel who knows nothing about technology and deserves to be looked down upon. I think this is partly due to the fact that by adopting my service I would be depriving them of a job, but moreso because they view themselves as the master of their domain and don't like to be educated.
And, honestly, I empathize with them. If I were in their shoes, I would view me as a stupid sales weasel. This is partly because I deliberately sound stupid on the phone (it puts business owners at ease -- there's that "touchy feely" stuff), but moreso because being smart and competant is very much part of IT culture. I remember feeling like I had to compete against all the other IT workers in my job. My brain power was my currency and my dick size in the IT world. I haven't ever worked an IT job that wasn't like that. You have to be able to build up a defensive barrier to survive in that kind of environment -- where all of your peers are going to try to show you up with their brain. You have to be ready to show them that they're wrong and know nothing.
In fact, isn't that what you did to the Parent by telling him, in essence, "You know nothing of what you speak, moron!"?
I also talked to my sister about this, since she works doing sales for web services in the UK. She shares my opinion, calling IT workers "smug" and "condescending". And she's right. I think IT workers and trained to be that way by their peers. If they have to be ready to defend themselves against their peers, how much respect do you expect them to have for some slimy sales weasel who makes much more money than they do and never has to think about recursion or race conditions?
But it still sucks when I have talk to an IT worker the phone.
I'll also add that my many phone conversations have allowed me to gain several levels in Wetware Hacking, which is fun.
No it's not, and the post just before yours pointed out why. I haven't watched TV in years now, but I don't hear about how it's suddenly amazing.
TV must not have heard yet. I will craft a sternly-worded letter to TV informing it that the world does, in fact, revolve around you. After thatn, I'm certain that it will turn into something that pleases you.
Slashdot Mirror
It's a very painful truth. I probably could have avoided the down-mod if I had couched it in some more compassionate language.
I think I've also chosen to make my life about me and not about other people except for those closest to me; namely, my family, and I spend a lot of time pleasing them and trying to help make them into better people. But it's because I chose to love them, and thus, it really is about me. I don't see this as destructive at all. In fact, it sounds very much like what you've chosen to do, so you and I are in agreement.
I also think that people can be destructively egocentric and just as happy as I am. Maybe you have played an MMORPG and seen the sheer sadistic delight that some people get in torturing other people. I hate those assholes. I think they are psychopaths.
Never leaving the house is pretty much true. I quit my IT job about nine months ago and now I'm a stay-at-home dad for the most part. But while my son is at school I get on the phone and do cold-calls. I'm a sales weasel, in other words. So the part about me not having to put up with idiot co-workers is also true. Instead, I have to put up with frustrating gate-keepers and business owners whose egos can eclipse the sun. I don't have a large bank account and the economy is hurting us badly, but I count my blessings and are well-aware that I've lived a life better than that lived by the majority of humans. It is the real world. I don't know what it would take to get you to recognize it as such. I'm sorry yours sucks so badly. It must be impossibly frustrating.
I don't think that movies were the worst possible source of information. I mean, you could have had movies made in your own country which were designed to slander America and make up complete falsehoods about American culture.
You see, we prefer the lies told about us to be told by good, patriotic Americans. :)
Anyway, all stereotypes are grounded in truth. Jocks and beautiful girls are at the top of the social ladder, and that continues well into college and into the larger culture. You would not believe the cult that surrounds football (and I'm not talking about soccer, and I refuse in the most bigoted and stubborn American way possible to call soccer "football"). Well, at least our football cult doesn't have neo-nazis and communists throwing broken bottles at each other, so maybe you understand a "football cult" better than I do.
I have been out of high school for a while now, so I can definitely say that I'm surprised that all of the geeky aspects of my high school days are now being made into major motion pictures. So I would hope that things are getting better. In truth, I'm sure it's the same. The beautiful and charismatic will be on the top while the inept and ugly will be on the bottom.
I'd ramble on more, but I have things to do.
I'd love to hear more about that time in your life, when you suddenly realized that you could influence people. It came from self-esteem, of course, which is summed up in your saying that you were "better than everyone".
I agree that most people aren't worth socializing with, but the world doesn't revolve around me. It breaks my heart when good people are lonely because everyone deserves companionship.
Did you read what that other AC wrote: "That's also why they're so easy to troll."?
He's exactly right. Furries are easy to abuse because they've already been shit on so much that they reflexively adopt the "victim stance" which only invites more abuse.
Furthermore, the internet makes consequence-free abuse merely a click away. As a gay man, I know this quite well. The singlemost effective defense against gay-bashing can be summed up in two words: concealed carry. Unfortunately, that doesn't work so well on the Internet.
Where would one put a Bersa in a fursuit anyway?
Yes, they are better off dead because they do nothing but drag intelligent people down.
Certainly those people have people who love them and depend on them, people who enjoy spending time with them, families to care for. Is all of that disposable?
Suffered a great injustice? Meh.
What would you do if you could set things right again? I know you have some thoughts on this.
Just go out and be around these people in your daily life (whether it's them wasting your time at the bank, the grocery store, because they're too wrapped up in putting on makeup to drive their car on the road, etc) and you should quickly realize my disdain for them.
I used to feel that way, but I'm a lot more benevolent nowadays. Suffice it to say that I understand how you feel. The only people that I hold in contempt are those people who actively try to deprive other people of life, liberty, or property through force or fraud. Rapists, murderers, welfare bums, people like that.
I would recommend joining a fraternity or sorority. Being part of the Greek community exposes you to a huge range of different personality types. Going Greek was one of the best decisions I ever made.
That's a good option for those who have enough money and are beautiful enough. Furthermore, you already have to have some degree of social power to be even considered. People who are ugly, inept, and poor are not welcome to join the "real" greek system.
High school is a completely different atmosphere. The biggest culture shock is going from high school to the real world (I never been to a "real" college, but that's a different discussion), where everyone ISN'T an asshole, who spreads rumors behind everyone's backs. I found it so funny how even best friends would talk behind each others backs.
If I had a choice, and knew of other options, I wouldn't have gone to high school. Hell, I recommend that anyone with children to tell them to take the GED and head for college. High school teaches you NOTHING about social interaction or "finding your own identity". The only thing it shows you is that people will do anything to become cool or popular, much like some places online (which are more than likely frequented by high school students anyways).
High school is perhaps one of the worst times in your life, and if you think it's the best time... then try looking at some of the "popular" kids 10-20 years later. I'm not saying high school isn't fun though, but don't bother looking for acceptance from other kids.
High school for some is a wonderful, fun time of the last remnants of childhood. That's the experience from those who are on the top of the heap.
For people like you, it is hell, and many people arrogantly and cruelly assume that high school, in spite of the abuse that goes on within it, is just "part of growing up". It doesn't have to be. If my own child ends up on the bottom of the heap in high school, then I will not put him through that hell. Abuse is NOT a required part of maturity.
I hope that you can find healing from your wounds.
I think you make valid points, but perhaps we should not give up on courses. What about a method of teaching nerds what you outline above?
It's called "cognitive therapy". Some of the wounds that nerds bear run deep.
I couldn't care less if they acknowledge me.
You and I will have to agree to disagree on that.
I realize from your posts that you're horribly wrapped up in your ego and think everyone else is, but I'm not (can't speak for others).
I think you're right about me being wrapped up in my own ego, though we may disagree on the degree ("horribly"? what are you implying?). Is there someone else's ego that you would prefer I be wrapped up in? Yours, perhaps?
However, I despise those people because they're completely useless and have nothing of value to offer the world.
That is incredibly critical. "[C]ompletely useless", "nothing of value". Better off dead, in other words? You must have suffered a great injustice to be so spiteful.
The reason I mentioned logic was because that was what the person you originally responded to was talking about. I guess you should apply your amazing talents and actually read the post you respond to. =D
I wasn't interested in replying to the logic part since one can learn logic through simple observation. Math, however, takes hard work, and I thought that was germane to the resentment that OP had shown toward those whom he though had unfairly earned life's blessings.
People who are not socially-inclined to not write articles, read articles, or communicate with other people.
There are no such people. Humans are social creatures. Some of them are just "better at it" than others, and are rewarded/punished accordingly.
There is a subset of humans who are both mathematically and socially inclined.
They become "Managers" or "Agents" and bilk the "musicians" and "actors" out of millions of dollars.
That's all social power. Managers and agents don't need to understand limits and recursion to exploit the bugs in the human mind.
A book which you might find interesting is "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion" by Robert Cialdini. Click, whirr...
However, all the idiots in Hollywood, at the jock table, the cheerleaders, etc ARE capable of learning basic math and logic, they CHOOSE not to because "it's not cool" and since for so many people (at least in the Western world) their goal is to be cool, they choose to be morons....and we all see where that's leading our society....
I was only talking about math, not logic. (Speaking of which, I don't think people need a class to understand cause and effect.)
True, some people avoid math because of it's uncoolness, which is justified since math is often a refuge of acceptance for those who don't win social approval but still require companionship (as all humans do). The real reason why those people you despise choose to eschew math is because math is not required for them to succeed. Furthermore, your approval is also not required for them to succeed. They can safely ignore both you and all of your hard work and suffer no ill effects to their quality of life whatsoever. I completely understand why you hate them.
A book which you might find interesting is called "The Chosen: The Hidden History of Admission and Exclusion at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton" by Jerome Karabel.
It's called "parties" and "extracurricular activities" and "sports" and the millions of other opportunities that college provides.
(For the record I'm not trying to troll...just give me a sec.)
My freshman year of college, I spent a lot of time in my dorm room. I played around on my computer, I studied (a lot), and...that's about it. Yeah, I did a little martial arts here and there, but not really. I didn't have any friends to speak of.
Then, after a good kick in the pants by this guy called "Life," I realized I was wasting a very valuable experience. So, I put down the books (sometimes), shut down my computer, and I went out and experienced life. It was, without a doubt, the best decision I ever made. I forced myself into social situations which I was uncomfortable in. I made myself apply for an RA position just so I would be forced into more social situations.
Without going into too much detail, it paid off. For those of you in college, take advantage of everything that it provides. You don't necessarily get those type of opportunities once you leave.
You did it, congratulations! You should feel proud of yourself, because you accomplished what many people fail to do and continue to suffer from.
When you first started meeting people, did you feel inadequate and scared?
After you were rewarded for your successful social interactions, did you feel better about yourself, more capable?
To me, you represent a person who took risks, was rewarded for hard work, and gained self-esteem as a result of it.
The only part of your story that I disagree with is when you say that "you don't necessarily get those types of opportunities once you leave". You will always be a social creature and will always have the opportunity to gain self-esteem. You just probably won't have the free-wheeling, hooking-up party atmosphere of college that really isn't representative of responsible adult life anyway.
For example, say you are a born classical musician, and are quite good. They would say you are cultured and have everything life needs. YET, if the same happened to a mathematician, well then they are not balanced.
Really? Not knowing how to calculate yourself out of a wet paper bag is balanced?
Not all humans are mathematically-inclined, or even intelligent enough to understand basic math concepts.
All humans are social creatures, from you all the way down the world's stupidest. "Cultured" is the term that people use to describe those who are best at winning approval from others. I understand why you resent it and hold those people in contempt. They didn't have to work nearly as hard as you had to work, and yet they have more than you do. It hurts.
At very bottom rung of the self-esteem ladder is furries. No matter who you are or what you are into, you will be accepted into a furry community. It's a great big love-fest over there. It's no surprise that there are so many gay guys and nerdy guys among furries: both of them have traditionally had their self-esteem utterly ruined by the time they graduate high school. The furry community provides them with a perfect escape from the hell world they've grown up in -- this escape is a fantasy world where everyone loves them.
The reason why nerds have that weird behavior is because they can get away with it. This is because they essentially have nothing to lose, and the capital that I'm referring to here is acceptance and validation by his peers. Since he knows he would never "get anywhere" with them anyway, he has no incentive to have the hygiene or tact that you mention.
If his self-esteem is even lower, then he claims those "outsider" social trappings (emo/goth) as part of his identity. This is a way for outsiders to gain companionship, but, inside, many of them want out.
The only way for an individual to gain self-esteem is to earn it. It can't be given to him by teachers who hand out "Good Job!" stickers to all students regardless of effort. An individual has to meet people, make friends, take chances, stand up for himself, refuse to be abused, be positive, and be funny. If he's rewarded for that behavior with more friends, then he gains self-esteem.
High school teaches us nerds all the wrong things about human interaction. Being punished for our choices drives us farther into seclusion and "nerdy" behavior.
Teaching "social skills" won't fix anything. Instead, send people to therapy and help them find ways to rebuild their destroyed self-esteem. Telling a nerd, "Bathe every once in a while!" is not going to do him any good if, inside, he says to himself: "I'm not worth the effort."
My self-esteem was destroyed when I was 12. It took me until I was 34 to earn it back.
Saying no is key to keeping your sanity.
And saying "no" is not something that geeks enjoy, because it takes a certain ability to withstand emotional games that geeks aren't good at. A common reason that geeks (including me) are attracted to scientific and technical endeavors is that we're socially a bit obtuse and aren't good at getting other people to appreciate us. We yearn for objective and scrupulously fair evaluation. We don't want to argue about our performance; we want it to speak for ourselves. It's even better to be alone with the computer: the computer is scrupulously fair.
We try to excuse ourselves from normal social maneuvering and rely entirely on our intelligence, competence, and ultimately, our good work. Unfortunately, that doesn't work when dealing with people who are angry, fearful, and willing to trample other people. And who isn't willing to trample on the lowly IT geek? Who isn't angry and fearful in an IT crisis?
When a geek encounters aggression, unfair accusations, and outrageous demands, his response to the social stress is to withdraw (leaving the accusations unchallenged) and fall back on his technical skills (by working overtime to fix the problem.)
The geek might try to stick up for himself by using facts and logic, but his aggressor will just become more aggressive and insulting. The aggressor understands the audience (bystanders and management) better than the geek and is able to snow them with indignation and misrepresentation, leaving the geek feeling shamed, embarrassed, and sorry that he stuck up for himself. What is his refuge? Demonstrating his ability with a scrupulously fair audience: the computer. So he works overtime to fix things for the guy who just abused him.
I've never worked an IT job, but I've experienced this as a software developer for a very small company. I no longer work there, and they still pay me a retainer and frequent consulting fees because they haven't managed to entirely replace me :-) Line up a better job and QUIT! Easier said than done, I know. Good luck to everyone stuck in that position. Read a few books like this one, work on sticking up for yourself, and keep it cool.
See also: http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1087077&cid=26401769
What you are describing is the effects of a lack of self esteem. The computer is fair in the way that a human being is unfair. Computers have no malice and no desire to see others suffer or submit. Nerds withdraw as a "third way" when the other two are "stand up for yourself" and "cower".
It took me a long, long time to understand this. I learned all of the wrong lessons about social interaction when I was younger. Diving into IT was a way for me to cope with the wrong lessons I learned and the destroyed self esteem that resulted from it. I can't tell you how awesome it feels to walk into a party of strangers and turn on my personality and own the room, making everyone laugh and look up to me even if I'm the shortest guy in the room. Making 200 computers bend to my will gives a rush, but a rush that is one one-millionth the feeling of making 50 people look up to me. That's real power.
* Its people tend to be non-confrontational; "wimps", as the high school jocks called us. We tend not to stand-up for ourselves and fight for our rights and our free time and dignity and self-respect.
True dat.
The inability to stand up for oneself, which is to say, the ability to resist someone dominating and abusing you, is an direct outgrowth of self esteem. And I'm not talking about the liberal view of self esteem which praises children regardless of their accomplishments or lack thereof. I'm talking about self esteem which comes from working hard, making good choices, and reaping the rewards. And the hard work and good choices I'm referring to are the ones associated with successful human interaction.
IT creates a culture in which a person can dissolve into the world of networks and computers and not be forced to talk to people. Do you know any nerds that have bad "social skills"? Do you know any nerds that are conditioned to react with sarcasm and derision as a means of self-defense? (Cue someone to cite the exception that proves the rule, see also: nerd defensiveness.)
Myself, I found a job in another profession.
You may already realize this, but wetware hacking with IT is dangerous.
Is also dangerous when hacking wetware is done with the retail industry, the medical industry, or politics. In fact, there is no human endeavor which is not completely infested with it. It is the way that humans operate. Those who figure out how to do it wield more power than those who don't.
It also helps to be taller than other people and strikingly beautiful. Isn't it interesting that the IT world is much more tolerant of the obese and hideous? As a sales guy, it's important to be good-looking if I'm actually meeting people, but it's more important to be "like" the owner (same nationality, same language, same accent, same religion, etc.) and to make the owner feel like he's smarter than me.
When I get a call from someone who is trying to pretend they know something, I'm immediately suspicious. Once in a while they turn out to be legitimate, but usually they go into the Indefinite Hold group.
Most IT people I talk to are suspicious and passive-aggressive. I think it's because they view salespeople as the scum of the earth, people who are "pretending that they know something" as an innate part of their essence.
Claiming prior experience with my boss or a boss above is pretty much a straight trip to the "Send them to voicemail" queue.
I'll say here that what I sell is likely something that you'll never have to consider, so I'm not the salesperson that would end up ever talking to you. I sell camera surveillance systems, primarily to the restaurant and retail industries. The reason that I sometimes talk to IT people is because the Owner / CEO sometimes says, "Our IT group handles security, so you need to talk to ...." And I cringe. Surveillance is part of operations, not IT, so this comes down to a case of lazy/luddite owner syndrome. (Oh my God, it has cables! Quick, get the IT guy!)
But perhaps your words partially explain why I sometimes don't get anywhere with the IT guy. My voice mail to him would say, "I talked to (the Owner) and he told me that you handled security, so ...." And maybe that makes him suspicious because I'm "claiming prior experience". What do you suppose I should say to the IT guy to indicate that I want to give him an honest pitch? What a pinch it is to know that I worked my way up to the CEO to learn that, by doing so, I /dev/nulled myself to the IT guy.
That caution noted, I welcome calls from sales people who have done their homework and are willing to give me an honest pitch. I'm expecting a call from a vendor who sells IT training later this month, who has taken the time to find out what we do, what we might be interested in and is willing to wait until I can spend the time to re-pitch his information to my boss.
That's why you are called a "gatekeeper" -- the guy I have to get through in order to talk to the person who can actually make a decision. Some gatekeepers are well-trained and awesome at it while others suck at it and will give me the owner's cell phone number when I ask for it. When I finally talk to the owner, it's a very different experience from talking to an gatekeeper. The gatekeeper's default response is, "go fuck yourself." The owner's response will depend on his business situation, something the gatekeeper is ignorant of 99% of the time. (If it's an IT guy, then they are sometimes proudly ignorant of it.) So the owner's response will be "yes", "not right now", or "much later". Sometimes he's a dick (and I have yet to meet a female owner), in which case the whole company sucks and I move on.
You sound like an awesome gatekeeper.
I'm looking forward to the potential to get training I need and it is because the vendor took the time to find out what we might be interested in and didn't try to BS me in order to convince me that
I worked b2b IT cold-calling in the UK too (you aren't based just outside Reading by any chance?), it was the most soul-destroying job I've ever had! All that mattered was the number of calls you made that day, the number of potential opportunities you made and the number you closed. The bosses cared absolutely nothing about how you were doing outside those stats.
I'm a Yank and based in the US. My sister lives in London. (Though, as a Southerner, I have to overcome the natural revulsion when someone calls me a "Yank". They don't mean it that way, honestly, they don't.) Yes, most sales jobs are horrible. And you're right, the only thing important in sales is sales. Period. And that's the way it should be. What makes a sales company bad is when they have ways of not paying salespeople their commissions. This is what my sister faces. After the quarter, there will be all these exceptions and loopholes that justify her NOT getting the bonus. That is what is soul-destroying, and lots of sales orgs do that. But I've seen even worse than that. But when you find a good one, which is where I am now, then it's awesome. It all depends on the character of the CEO. If he's a good guy, then he'll set the tone of the culture and it makes all the difference.
I spent all day manipulating people down the phone till I got to talk to the head of the IT department, then trying to manipulate him into buying whatever crap I was selling that day.
What, exactly, qualifies as "manipulating"? I have my own definition of it, which is to exploit bugs in the human brain. If you want to read more about that, read the book Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. I don't do that. Since our business model is a subscription service and depends on our subscribers NOT cancelling, it's not like we can bait-and-switch anyway. It goes back to what I said about a good company. You have to feel proud of what you're selling.
Whilst some people are happy to do their job and take home their pay check, I prefer to have something for my mind to work on. I couldn't take the mind-numbing boredom of it all in the end and soon quit to go travelling. When I came back I got a proper IT job and it's been a dream! There's little direct repetition, I get to work on interesting projects a lot of the time and most of all I don't have any hard and fast targets foisted on me (like make X number of calls per day).
I remember those feelings well. I also remember the bad parts of the IT job: supporting someone else's horrible code, supporting someone else's horrible legacy code, supporting stupid people, trying to figure out what to say to the non-technical boss who doesn't "get it", etc. You know what I mean.
But the puzzle parts of IT are fun. The parts of getting better efficiency and seeing a complex system start working and standing back in awe of it all. That was beautiful.
I have just one job requirement: Make the IT system run well. Do that and my work life goes perfectly.
I think that's the proper mind-set for an IT worker. It guarantees that they'll be totally focused on their own task, which is more complex than any other part of the business. It generally means that IT workers tend to be ignorant of how the business runs. That's why it chafes me when lazy owners put business decisions in the hands of IT workers who don't understand the business.
It also really chafes me when I know more about IT than the IT worker I'm talking to! It's almost impossible for them to believe me when they're wrong about something, and if they realize it, they will never admit that they were wrong about it! Instead of being forced to admit that they were shown up by a slimy salesperson, they choose to withdraw and become extremely passive-aggressive.
I have personally quit 2 jobs in the past because I was asked to work with Microsoft products.
Pshaw.
I quit an all-Unix shop when I found out my boss used emacs.
Burn, infidel!
Man are you clueless.......
Your comments reek of a know-it-all ego. First off you speak like all in IT have an ego. Farthest from the truth.
I will refute your anecdotal evidence with some anecdotal evidence of my own.
I used to be in IT. Specifically, I was a programmer. It felt natural and fun and really stroked my own inherent nerdiness. (Additionally, it was a way to insulate myself from having to be in uncomfortable social situations, but that's not really germane to the subject at hand...)
I left IT last March and have since been in sales. Now I spend much of my day talking to strangers on the phone. In other words, I am doing cold-calling. How am I doing? Well, the web app I wrote that tracks the results of my calls tells me that I have made 4063 calls since then with 703 conversation with "decision makers". Additionally, I have only had one person hang up on me.
It is a very, very, very different world here in sales. It's touchy feely, talky, and decidedly NON geeky. Well, there is a slight geeky side to it, but it's psychological and thus a "soft science". So I don't consider it to be true geek.
Where is this going? Well, since I'm doing b2b and providing a technological service, I occasionally run into business owners who tell me, "Our IT department handles that, you need to talk to them." I have to tell you, that's poison to my ears when I hear that. Why? It's because IT workers view me unconditionally as some stupid uppity sales weasel who knows nothing about technology and deserves to be looked down upon. I think this is partly due to the fact that by adopting my service I would be depriving them of a job, but moreso because they view themselves as the master of their domain and don't like to be educated.
And, honestly, I empathize with them. If I were in their shoes, I would view me as a stupid sales weasel. This is partly because I deliberately sound stupid on the phone (it puts business owners at ease -- there's that "touchy feely" stuff), but moreso because being smart and competant is very much part of IT culture. I remember feeling like I had to compete against all the other IT workers in my job. My brain power was my currency and my dick size in the IT world. I haven't ever worked an IT job that wasn't like that. You have to be able to build up a defensive barrier to survive in that kind of environment -- where all of your peers are going to try to show you up with their brain. You have to be ready to show them that they're wrong and know nothing.
In fact, isn't that what you did to the Parent by telling him, in essence, "You know nothing of what you speak, moron!"?
I also talked to my sister about this, since she works doing sales for web services in the UK. She shares my opinion, calling IT workers "smug" and "condescending". And she's right. I think IT workers and trained to be that way by their peers. If they have to be ready to defend themselves against their peers, how much respect do you expect them to have for some slimy sales weasel who makes much more money than they do and never has to think about recursion or race conditions?
But it still sucks when I have talk to an IT worker the phone.
I'll also add that my many phone conversations have allowed me to gain several levels in Wetware Hacking, which is fun.
No it's not, and the post just before yours pointed out why. I haven't watched TV in years now, but I don't hear about how it's suddenly amazing.
TV must not have heard yet. I will craft a sternly-worded letter to TV informing it that the world does, in fact, revolve around you. After thatn, I'm certain that it will turn into something that pleases you.