Monotheistic Theo-Fascist mass-murdering Psycho-Cults - I'm just so fed up of them.
Katholics, Protestants, Muslim, Jewish orthodox... abrahamic book & revelation religions are all the same at variing points in history: Wacko genocide-advocating psycho-cults that have been around for too long. We've always done better whenever we've condemned them to their temples and curbed their power as much as possible.
Fascists will always find some way to blame Christians for fascism.
Well, not about cartoons maybe, but Christians certainly shoot and blow other people up based on: skin color, some cartoonish fantasy that a single fertilized cell is a human being, etc.
So how do you define what a human being is? Because Planned Parenthood and their subsidiaries have been pushing this nonsense that a living baby that can feel pain and other emotions isn't even alive. I wonder when the far-left will be called out on their antiscientific trash like creationists have been?
Giving my money to charity means I have freely let go of my funds in order to try and make the world a better place. Crying for more taxes is essentially saying "You! Over there, with the guns! Point them at us and make us turn over our goods to you!"
Slavery is also likely a very poor analogy. If Apple has to spend the month they estimated they are probably entitled to be reimburse for their costs.
Good ol' freedom of the USA right here. As long as the Commissar gives you some pennies for your forced labor, it's not *really* slavery.
Technically "USA Freedom" has never been about being immune from government orders except in very specific conditions. In general its always been about government orders being required to go through some process under judicial review. The founding father's were not anarchists. They merely wanted the rules to be written by an elected legislature and government's coercive powers to be subject to judicial oversight and in certain narrow circumstances limited by the Constitution. From the moment the founding fathers transitioned from revolutionaries to the "the government" they embraced the coercive powers of government. Actually, they also did so as revolutionaries. Commandeering property during the revolution and reimbursing the owners with "script" that would be worthless if the revolution failed.
And before you get all Constitutional keep in mind that the owner of the phone has given the FBI their approval to search it. The phone is owned by the employer not the murderer. Hopefully that detail limits this case in terms of it being a precedent.
Except what the DOJ is requesting the court to force upon Apple under the All Writs Act is an unprecedented interpretation of that law which has no discernible limits. This is the dividing line between a police state and a republic.
The Constitution is NOT on the government's side. Code is speech, the DOJ are violating the First Amendment by attempting to force Apple to write malicious code to compromise the security of all of their customers. The government has no more right to do this than it does to force political dissidents to write apologies to them.
Only if that key opens up EVERY customer's safe deposit box.
Not sure about safe-deposit boxes, but many landlords do use master-keys, which can open all apartments in their building. Their cooperation in opening up a particular apartment may still be legally demanded by the police (and backed by a court order) — nothing outrageous here.
That is a false analogy. Apple doesn't have a key to the iPhone.
You think civil disobedience in a democracy is bad. Therefore, when the people vote for slavery or genocide, you are against any who may protest this decision, are you not?
"that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable Rights"
Unless they were native american or black of course.
"it is the Right of the people to alter or abolish it,"
Thats what voting is for. If you change your government by force then you're no better than some banana republic - which , lets be blunt , is all the USA was for a long time after independence.
It's funny how you say "unless they were native american or black" -- those minorities attempted to use civil disobedience to reclaim some of their rights, and only after almost two centuries of doing so were they recompensed for their suffering. Many were killed for this. However, since you believe in "sometimes having to put up with what you consider dumb decisions made by governments and the courts and other people", you must think they got what they deserved for their lawlessness?
The Constitution does not prevent the Executive from searching citizens. It requires the Executive's cause to be reasonable and approved by the Judiciary's. The requirements the Executive have satisfied in this case.
You are tragically misinformed. Nobody is stopping the DOJ from searching the phone. The problem they are facing is that the data on the phone is encrypted. To circumvent that matter, the DOJ is asking Apple either compromise their own customers' security by making malware, or giving their security keys to the DOJ so they can do the same. That is a violation of Apple's free speech and essentially enslavery.
write malware to compromise their customers' security, or demanding their security signing keys
Both options would've sounded phantastical to the framers of the Constitution, but they are quite analogous to, for example, demanding a landlord's cooperation in opening up a tenant's apartment, or a bank required to open up a customer's safe deposit box.
Those aren't analogous at all, since the landlord and bank have the keys to the doors they are being asked to open. What is more analogous would be if a criminal buried his locked box somewhere, so the U.S. government demanded all shovel owners and shovel manufacturers to start digging for it, or be in contempt of the court.
We all have our points of view, but ultimately part of the price you pay for living in a democracy is sometimes having to put up with what you consider dumb decisions made by governments and the courts and other people for voting for idiots. You can't pick and choose which laws or warrants you obey - that way lies anarchy.
So if they want to chuck their toys out their pram then let them. There are plenty of other people who would like their jobs.
Sorry, I would like to make just one more comment in response to this. The democracy we live in was established by our Founding Fathers, of course. And if they were here now, what would they say in response to "You can't pick and choose which laws or warrants you obey"?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable Rights; that among these, are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness; that to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
Are you seriously bashing people who have morals over greed?
My question is similar, but for completely different reasons. IF they quit, they don't (directly) have the support & resources of Apple. Then the gov't can force/threaten them directly.
Why would the government do that? Unless they made a copy of Apple's source codes and security keys on the way out the door, there's nothing they can give the DOJ but their moral support and technical advice... which Apple has already given them.
Yes, it certainly seems that way. Unlike in some other cases, this time the government is doing everything "by the book" FBI do have a proper warrant and all of the backing of the Judiciary, that the 4th Amendment may require. Apple's continuing resistance can only be explained by either utter legal illiteracy or desire for publicity.
Considering the sheer size of the multi-billion dollar corporation, we can dispense with the former option...
Are you kidding me? You think the DOJ either forcing Apple to write malware to compromise their customers' security, or demanding their security signing keys, is "by the book" and in line with the Constitution?
I am wondering who will quit their 6-digit salary paying swanky job in the Silicon Valley, just because they do not agree with the law enforcement. Maybe 1 or 2 people with some screws loose upstairs, but no sane person would do such a thing.
The Founding Fathers of our country abandoned their cushy plantations so they could fight for their liberties. Giving up one comfy job out of principle doesn't seem so bad in perspective.
Apple can easily solve this problem by forming an independent subsidiary in Germany which will maintain keys and security settings, which is then contracted into the next iOS upgrade. The current keys should be erased at the next upgrade. Then, the German government can approve FBI warrants for the use of the keys.
For real fun, Apple should announce that the iCloud servers for U.S. Government workers are moving to China, starting with all members of congress.
That's not a bad idea, except Germany is a bad pick as a soon-to-be Five Eyes country. Perhaps better would be Switzerland, Ireland, Portugal, Poland, etc.
Put in the backdoor, but make it only work for the next month or so. FBI gets to hack this one phone, but can't do anything with this backdoor in the future.
Except that surrenders the legal precedent whereby law enforcement can demand you write a program to compromise your product's security.
We all have our points of view, but ultimately part of the price you pay for living in a democracy is sometimes having to put up with what you consider dumb decisions made by governments and the courts and other people for voting for idiots. You can't pick and choose which laws or warrants you obey - that way lies anarchy.
That's why Mohandas Gandhi, Anthony of Padua, Rosa Parks, Edward Snowden, and other civil rights activists are so admired: because they followed every dumb law in existence to the letter.
It might not be smart to quit if, while employed, they are under Apple's umbrella of legal protection. Alone in the wild, could employees with knowledge on how to crack the phone* be pressured to crack the phones?
* = "Hey, remember when Apple said phones couldn't be cracked? Ha, good times, good times. (cries in beer)"
The phone can't be cracked. The DOJ wants Apple's signing keys so they can install malware on an iPhone that would disable the data wipe feature. An ex-employee in the wild couldn't do that, unless he stole Apple's keys on his way out.
The DOJ obsessing over the locked phone of a dead shooter in the guise of protecting America, while being totally silent about the insane privacy violations of Windows 10, seems rather hypocritical.
Ever notice how the feds never go after Google or the Android phone makers to unlock things? They don't need to, they've been able to go balls-deep in Android since Day One.
Too bad only Apple seems to give a poop about security.
It would take me too long to write a full rebuttal for your post, but to summarize: 1) The feds DO go after Google and OEMs to unlock phones. 2) Cheapo Android phones are insecure. But Nexus phones get prompt security updates straight from Google. Samsung is also nowadays rigorous about securing their flagship phones, since they're approved by the DoD for government employee usage (cf. "Samsung Knox").
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It was a dumb comment for sure, but turning this into a matter of class warfare or social justice is orders of magnitude dumber.
Monotheistic Theo-Fascist mass-murdering Psycho-Cults - I'm just so fed up of them.
Katholics, Protestants, Muslim, Jewish orthodox ... abrahamic book & revelation religions are all the same at variing points in history: Wacko genocide-advocating psycho-cults that have been around for too long. We've always done better whenever we've condemned them to their temples and curbed their power as much as possible.
Fascists will always find some way to blame Christians for fascism.
Well, not about cartoons maybe, but Christians certainly shoot and blow other people up based on: skin color, some cartoonish fantasy that a single fertilized cell is a human being, etc.
So how do you define what a human being is? Because Planned Parenthood and their subsidiaries have been pushing this nonsense that a living baby that can feel pain and other emotions isn't even alive. I wonder when the far-left will be called out on their antiscientific trash like creationists have been?
Giving my money to charity means I have freely let go of my funds in order to try and make the world a better place. Crying for more taxes is essentially saying "You! Over there, with the guns! Point them at us and make us turn over our goods to you!"
He likes the very small screen. He says his old iPhone 4S is too slow on the newest version of iOS to keep using, however.
Slavery is also likely a very poor analogy. If Apple has to spend the month they estimated they are probably entitled to be reimburse for their costs.
Good ol' freedom of the USA right here. As long as the Commissar gives you some pennies for your forced labor, it's not *really* slavery.
Technically "USA Freedom" has never been about being immune from government orders except in very specific conditions. In general its always been about government orders being required to go through some process under judicial review. The founding father's were not anarchists. They merely wanted the rules to be written by an elected legislature and government's coercive powers to be subject to judicial oversight and in certain narrow circumstances limited by the Constitution. From the moment the founding fathers transitioned from revolutionaries to the "the government" they embraced the coercive powers of government. Actually, they also did so as revolutionaries. Commandeering property during the revolution and reimbursing the owners with "script" that would be worthless if the revolution failed. And before you get all Constitutional keep in mind that the owner of the phone has given the FBI their approval to search it. The phone is owned by the employer not the murderer. Hopefully that detail limits this case in terms of it being a precedent.
Except what the DOJ is requesting the court to force upon Apple under the All Writs Act is an unprecedented interpretation of that law which has no discernible limits. This is the dividing line between a police state and a republic.
The Constitution is NOT on the government's side. Code is speech, the DOJ are violating the First Amendment by attempting to force Apple to write malicious code to compromise the security of all of their customers. The government has no more right to do this than it does to force political dissidents to write apologies to them.
Not sure about safe-deposit boxes, but many landlords do use master-keys, which can open all apartments in their building. Their cooperation in opening up a particular apartment may still be legally demanded by the police (and backed by a court order) — nothing outrageous here.
That is a false analogy. Apple doesn't have a key to the iPhone.
its funny you should mention obeying the constitution, when you advocate willfully disobeying a court order given by the constitution
If the Constitution gave me a court order, I'd likely do it. Then again, I have always feared anthropomorphic imperative documents.
Oh fuck off, it is not slavery in any fashion
That is correct Comrade. In the People's lands, we use gentle euphemisms like "forced labor."
Slavery is also likely a very poor analogy. If Apple has to spend the month they estimated they are probably entitled to be reimburse for their costs.
Good ol' freedom of the USA right here. As long as the Commissar gives you some pennies for your forced labor, it's not *really* slavery.
You think civil disobedience in a democracy is bad. Therefore, when the people vote for slavery or genocide, you are against any who may protest this decision, are you not?
" our Founding Fathers,"
Speak for yourself. I'm not a yank.
"that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable Rights"
Unless they were native american or black of course.
"it is the Right of the people to alter or abolish it,"
Thats what voting is for. If you change your government by force then you're no better than some banana republic - which , lets be blunt , is all the USA was for a long time after independence.
It's funny how you say "unless they were native american or black" -- those minorities attempted to use civil disobedience to reclaim some of their rights, and only after almost two centuries of doing so were they recompensed for their suffering. Many were killed for this. However, since you believe in "sometimes having to put up with what you consider dumb decisions made by governments and the courts and other people", you must think they got what they deserved for their lawlessness?
The Constitution does not prevent the Executive from searching citizens. It requires the Executive's cause to be reasonable and approved by the Judiciary's. The requirements the Executive have satisfied in this case.
You are tragically misinformed. Nobody is stopping the DOJ from searching the phone. The problem they are facing is that the data on the phone is encrypted. To circumvent that matter, the DOJ is asking Apple either compromise their own customers' security by making malware, or giving their security keys to the DOJ so they can do the same. That is a violation of Apple's free speech and essentially enslavery.
Both options would've sounded phantastical to the framers of the Constitution, but they are quite analogous to, for example, demanding a landlord's cooperation in opening up a tenant's apartment, or a bank required to open up a customer's safe deposit box.
Those aren't analogous at all, since the landlord and bank have the keys to the doors they are being asked to open. What is more analogous would be if a criminal buried his locked box somewhere, so the U.S. government demanded all shovel owners and shovel manufacturers to start digging for it, or be in contempt of the court.
We all have our points of view, but ultimately part of the price you pay for living in a democracy is sometimes having to put up with what you consider dumb decisions made by governments and the courts and other people for voting for idiots. You can't pick and choose which laws or warrants you obey - that way lies anarchy.
So if they want to chuck their toys out their pram then let them. There are plenty of other people who would like their jobs.
Sorry, I would like to make just one more comment in response to this. The democracy we live in was established by our Founding Fathers, of course. And if they were here now, what would they say in response to "You can't pick and choose which laws or warrants you obey"?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable Rights; that among these, are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness; that to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
Are you seriously bashing people who have morals over greed?
My question is similar, but for completely different reasons. IF they quit, they don't (directly) have the support & resources of Apple. Then the gov't can force/threaten them directly.
Why would the government do that? Unless they made a copy of Apple's source codes and security keys on the way out the door, there's nothing they can give the DOJ but their moral support and technical advice... which Apple has already given them.
Yes, it certainly seems that way. Unlike in some other cases, this time the government is doing everything "by the book" FBI do have a proper warrant and all of the backing of the Judiciary, that the 4th Amendment may require. Apple's continuing resistance can only be explained by either utter legal illiteracy or desire for publicity.
Considering the sheer size of the multi-billion dollar corporation, we can dispense with the former option...
Are you kidding me? You think the DOJ either forcing Apple to write malware to compromise their customers' security, or demanding their security signing keys, is "by the book" and in line with the Constitution?
I am wondering who will quit their 6-digit salary paying swanky job in the Silicon Valley, just because they do not agree with the law enforcement. Maybe 1 or 2 people with some screws loose upstairs, but no sane person would do such a thing.
The Founding Fathers of our country abandoned their cushy plantations so they could fight for their liberties. Giving up one comfy job out of principle doesn't seem so bad in perspective.
Apple can easily solve this problem by forming an independent subsidiary in Germany which will maintain keys and security settings, which is then contracted into the next iOS upgrade. The current keys should be erased at the next upgrade. Then, the German government can approve FBI warrants for the use of the keys.
For real fun, Apple should announce that the iCloud servers for U.S. Government workers are moving to China, starting with all members of congress.
That's not a bad idea, except Germany is a bad pick as a soon-to-be Five Eyes country. Perhaps better would be Switzerland, Ireland, Portugal, Poland, etc.
Put in the backdoor, but make it only work for the next month or so. FBI gets to hack this one phone, but can't do anything with this backdoor in the future.
Except that surrenders the legal precedent whereby law enforcement can demand you write a program to compromise your product's security.
We all have our points of view, but ultimately part of the price you pay for living in a democracy is sometimes having to put up with what you consider dumb decisions made by governments and the courts and other people for voting for idiots. You can't pick and choose which laws or warrants you obey - that way lies anarchy.
That's why Mohandas Gandhi, Anthony of Padua, Rosa Parks, Edward Snowden, and other civil rights activists are so admired: because they followed every dumb law in existence to the letter.
It might not be smart to quit if, while employed, they are under Apple's umbrella of legal protection. Alone in the wild, could employees with knowledge on how to crack the phone* be pressured to crack the phones? * = "Hey, remember when Apple said phones couldn't be cracked? Ha, good times, good times. (cries in beer)"
The phone can't be cracked. The DOJ wants Apple's signing keys so they can install malware on an iPhone that would disable the data wipe feature. An ex-employee in the wild couldn't do that, unless he stole Apple's keys on his way out.
The DOJ obsessing over the locked phone of a dead shooter in the guise of protecting America, while being totally silent about the insane privacy violations of Windows 10, seems rather hypocritical.
Ever notice how the feds never go after Google or the Android phone makers to unlock things? They don't need to, they've been able to go balls-deep in Android since Day One. Too bad only Apple seems to give a poop about security.
It would take me too long to write a full rebuttal for your post, but to summarize: 1) The feds DO go after Google and OEMs to unlock phones. 2) Cheapo Android phones are insecure. But Nexus phones get prompt security updates straight from Google. Samsung is also nowadays rigorous about securing their flagship phones, since they're approved by the DoD for government employee usage (cf. "Samsung Knox").
Just use open source things and make sure you skim through the source code to make sure there's no shit like this to be found.