But here's no outrage activism available if it's due to a fungus and virus. How can you have a good outrage if the cause is something natural and not *gasp* the fault of man??
I've pointed out that same research IDing the fungi/virus cause multiple times here, and been pooh-pooh'd every time. This last time, I was informed that neonics had to be the cause even when the nearest use of same is hundreds or thousands of miles away, because, ya know, pesticide.
The link went to an article which mentioned research on CCD done at Montana State U (where I was once upon a time a biochemistry/microbiology double major) and U of MT. Didn't find a link to the actual paper offhand but didn't look that hard either; no doubt you can find it.
I get the feeling you won't be happy until everyone admits your particular point of interest is the culprit, which isn't exactly a scientific method either. It's fine to look at every possible candidate. It's not fine to decide that's the culprit when it's not even present in many regions of interest.
Also, if neonics are the culprit, that should be very easy to demonstrate -- you should be able to reliably induce CCD in fairly short order just by isolating a hive with a treated food source.
But Georgia isn't everywhere, and wheat isn't a bee-pollinated crop.
The relevant thing is that bees are affected without ever being anywhere near a treated area, in fact without being near an area treated for anything at all.
Well, yes it is, since it doesn't have an infinite half-life and doesn't move around by itself. You're certainly not going to find it used in Montana wheatfields, yet CCD has affected bees here as well... so now what to blame?? Indeed, most of our acreage is never treated with anything, being non-arable grazing land or wilderness. Hasn't helped bees any.
I'd guess in addition to the viral and fungal agents that when they occur together have been determined as CCD causes already, there might be a genetic susceptibility in some lines of bees, but far as I know that hasn't been looked at yet.
I'm reminded that many a time, some OMG-Death-Chemical reaction has proven to in fact be due to a genetic defect. Frex, see MDR1 (multi-drug resistance gene) in dogs. Nope, it wasn't ivermectin causing illness and death; it was a genetic defect.
"Many lethal and sublethal effects of neonicotinoid insecticides on bees have been described in laboratory studies, however, no effects were observed in field studies with field-realistic dosages."
As they say there's need for further study regarding synergistic effects and the like. But real exposure effects in the field are what counts, not just laboratory findings. Otherwise it's like finding that table salt is OMG-toxic as studied in the lab, even tho we know it's safe in normal realworld use.
Honeybees are technically an invasive species in North America; they were imported, not native. There are numerous other species, including small native bees, that did the pollination work before honeybees came along. Far as I have heard, populations of these native bees have not been affected by CCD.
Neonicotinoids are relatively expensive (4 years ago, Imidacloprid was $25/pound, about 5x the cost of permethins), and I'd guess despite being about a quarter of the insecticide market, that in ag they are probably not used outside of the fairly limited areas that grow fruits and vegetables -- as those crops have a better profit margin. Yet CCD has been seen very widely, including in areas where there isn't any row-crop agriculture.
Anecdotally, I've used Imidacloprid to control desert stink beetles, and did not observe any issues with my wild honeybees (who frequented the same areas, cuz that's where the water was).
The scare over DDT was manufactured. Silent Spring (which I read, back when it was new) was mostly fiction and has been discredited, yet it influenced a whole generation of environmentalism -- that, not truth, was its point and intent. Some estimates put malaria deaths due to ending use of DDT in the millions. Meanwhile, the connection with condor populations was at best tenuous.
I own a shitload of DVDs. But I usually watch downloads. Why? Because no need to rip it first, it's already handy, and no risk of scratching my disks. The disks are backups.
And actually, you can demonstrate 'insanity' in any wild colony with an aging queen -- the bees become aggressive at greater and greater distances from the hive. I watched this with a wild colony that had taken up residence in the wall of a barn. For the first three years, they were 'gentle' (not concerned about intruders) -- to the point that you could actually poke around in their entryway without incurring any retaliation. The 4th year, they got twitchy about people walking nearby. The 5th year, they regularly chased people who passed within about 20 feet of their hive entrance. The colony died off entirely that winter. Far as I saw, it never swarmed, indicating they didn't produce any new queens.
We probably don't see this in domesticated colonies because modern beekeepers are diligent about replacing queens in a timely manner. But I asked an old-timer about it (who'd been in the bee business since the 1930s) and he said that was all perfectly normal for a colony with an old queen.
I think that's a reasonable approach. We can never have perfection, but we can strive to avoid mistakes, and one way is through requiring better evidence, as you called it "beyond doubt". What standards would you suggest?
I'm not against the death penalty; I'm against making irreparable mistakes.
There's a way to prevent gung-ho justice: if judgment is later found to be in error, visit the same penalty on those who condemned. Tho I vaguely recall this principle comes from Sharia law, and if so it doesn't seem to limit behavior much in Real Life.
That theory has been put forth, and probably has often been true, but it falls down when it comes to state offices -- where statewide, approval rating was in the toilet, yet the same people got re-elected.
There's also the problem of low turnout. In my SoCal town, the same guy has had a monopoly on the mayor's office for years, yet is widely hated. So how did he stay in office? In the last election while I lived there, less than 2% (yes, TWO percent) of registered voters actually voted. Or at least that was what was reported to the SoS office... there were irregularities sufficient that an investigation was scheduled, but nothing ever came of it.
I'm reminded of a tale from the 1972 Presidential election, from someone I knew who was doing a door-to-door survey: When asked their views, most people espoused typical conservative points. But the final survey question was: Who do you think would make a good president? And the most common answer, even from very conservative voters, was "Teddy Kennedy" (then the most liberal man in all of politics). The conclusion from the survey's data was that most voters didn't actually know what a given candidate stood for, but they sure as hell knew the names. (Mind you this was back when most of these voters would remember JFK firsthand.)
Here in Montana, if someone has an abysmal rating, they're likely to get voted out. One might offer a correlation with the much better educational level...
More than an advantage; in California, it's a shoo-in.
At the last major election before I moved back out of CA -- I forget the year, mighta been 2010 -- public satisfaction with elected state officials was just 13%.
Yet *100%* of incumbants got re-elected. (I checked every race listed on the Secretary of State site. There were NO exceptions.)
If that ain't name-recognition at work, well, you tell me.
And yes, CA has more than its fair share of yellow-dog Democrats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... The term originated in the late 19th century. These voters would allegedly "vote for a yellow dog before they would vote for any Republican".
I've been heard to say that the first freedom is economic, because it allows you to exercise the second freedom, which is the ability to travel, and that all other freedoms ultimately derive from these.
A comment below by drinkypoo also gave me this thought: so many tech nerds are drooling over the social virtues of autonomous cars not so much for the technology and the proposed safety, but because when it comes to =other= people, they're control freaks. Much easier to control people (which is to say, make them unable to annoy said nerds) who can only travel as their car will, not as they wish.
Slashdot Mirror
I don't, but I use music to "fill up the cracks in my brain" that would otherwise be full of distractions.
But here's no outrage activism available if it's due to a fungus and virus. How can you have a good outrage if the cause is something natural and not *gasp* the fault of man??
I've pointed out that same research IDing the fungi/virus cause multiple times here, and been pooh-pooh'd every time. This last time, I was informed that neonics had to be the cause even when the nearest use of same is hundreds or thousands of miles away, because, ya know, pesticide.
It's no different in any field. Experience counts.
The link went to an article which mentioned research on CCD done at Montana State U (where I was once upon a time a biochemistry/microbiology double major) and U of MT. Didn't find a link to the actual paper offhand but didn't look that hard either; no doubt you can find it.
I did; I posted a link to it upstairs somewhere. Shame you didn't read it.
I'll take the validity of research at my alma mater above most anything else, because I know the quality of the research departments.
Airborne particulates is a false equivalency.
I get the feeling you won't be happy until everyone admits your particular point of interest is the culprit, which isn't exactly a scientific method either. It's fine to look at every possible candidate. It's not fine to decide that's the culprit when it's not even present in many regions of interest.
Also, if neonics are the culprit, that should be very easy to demonstrate -- you should be able to reliably induce CCD in fairly short order just by isolating a hive with a treated food source.
But Georgia isn't everywhere, and wheat isn't a bee-pollinated crop.
The relevant thing is that bees are affected without ever being anywhere near a treated area, in fact without being near an area treated for anything at all.
Well, yes it is, since it doesn't have an infinite half-life and doesn't move around by itself. You're certainly not going to find it used in Montana wheatfields, yet CCD has affected bees here as well... so now what to blame?? Indeed, most of our acreage is never treated with anything, being non-arable grazing land or wilderness. Hasn't helped bees any.
I'd guess in addition to the viral and fungal agents that when they occur together have been determined as CCD causes already, there might be a genetic susceptibility in some lines of bees, but far as I know that hasn't been looked at yet.
I'm reminded that many a time, some OMG-Death-Chemical reaction has proven to in fact be due to a genetic defect. Frex, see MDR1 (multi-drug resistance gene) in dogs. Nope, it wasn't ivermectin causing illness and death; it was a genetic defect.
"Neonicotinoids in bees: a review on concentrations, side-effects and risk assessment"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm...
"Many lethal and sublethal effects of neonicotinoid insecticides on bees have been described in laboratory studies, however, no effects were observed in field studies with field-realistic dosages."
As they say there's need for further study regarding synergistic effects and the like. But real exposure effects in the field are what counts, not just laboratory findings. Otherwise it's like finding that table salt is OMG-toxic as studied in the lab, even tho we know it's safe in normal realworld use.
Honeybees are technically an invasive species in North America; they were imported, not native. There are numerous other species, including small native bees, that did the pollination work before honeybees came along. Far as I have heard, populations of these native bees have not been affected by CCD.
Neonicotinoids are relatively expensive (4 years ago, Imidacloprid was $25/pound, about 5x the cost of permethins), and I'd guess despite being about a quarter of the insecticide market, that in ag they are probably not used outside of the fairly limited areas that grow fruits and vegetables -- as those crops have a better profit margin. Yet CCD has been seen very widely, including in areas where there isn't any row-crop agriculture.
Anecdotally, I've used Imidacloprid to control desert stink beetles, and did not observe any issues with my wild honeybees (who frequented the same areas, cuz that's where the water was).
The scare over DDT was manufactured. Silent Spring (which I read, back when it was new) was mostly fiction and has been discredited, yet it influenced a whole generation of environmentalism -- that, not truth, was its point and intent. Some estimates put malaria deaths due to ending use of DDT in the millions. Meanwhile, the connection with condor populations was at best tenuous.
I own a shitload of DVDs. But I usually watch downloads. Why? Because no need to rip it first, it's already handy, and no risk of scratching my disks. The disks are backups.
Just curious, what monitor do you have?
Actually there's a pretty good trail being laid down:
http://missoulian.com/news/loc...
Not only that, but per this article (with stats), bee populations are stable to increasing despite CCD:
http://www.perc.org/articles/e...
The amount of honey being produced is a good indicator, given you can't make honey without bees.
This won't load for me but I imagine it goes into more detail:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/br/...
And actually, you can demonstrate 'insanity' in any wild colony with an aging queen -- the bees become aggressive at greater and greater distances from the hive. I watched this with a wild colony that had taken up residence in the wall of a barn. For the first three years, they were 'gentle' (not concerned about intruders) -- to the point that you could actually poke around in their entryway without incurring any retaliation. The 4th year, they got twitchy about people walking nearby. The 5th year, they regularly chased people who passed within about 20 feet of their hive entrance. The colony died off entirely that winter. Far as I saw, it never swarmed, indicating they didn't produce any new queens.
We probably don't see this in domesticated colonies because modern beekeepers are diligent about replacing queens in a timely manner. But I asked an old-timer about it (who'd been in the bee business since the 1930s) and he said that was all perfectly normal for a colony with an old queen.
I think that's a reasonable approach. We can never have perfection, but we can strive to avoid mistakes, and one way is through requiring better evidence, as you called it "beyond doubt". What standards would you suggest?
Ah, I missed the Sweden reference, thanks. Too much stuff to read this morning and I'm skimming at best.
I'm not against the death penalty; I'm against making irreparable mistakes.
There's a way to prevent gung-ho justice: if judgment is later found to be in error, visit the same penalty on those who condemned. Tho I vaguely recall this principle comes from Sharia law, and if so it doesn't seem to limit behavior much in Real Life.
I don't know the case -- was it an American elk or a moose? Cuz both are dangerous under the wrong circumstances, but moose far more so.
"When four men sit down to talk conspiracy, three are government agents and the fourth is a fool."
-- Russian proverb
Where'd you get that newfangled hearin' aid?? I needs me one.
That theory has been put forth, and probably has often been true, but it falls down when it comes to state offices -- where statewide, approval rating was in the toilet, yet the same people got re-elected.
There's also the problem of low turnout. In my SoCal town, the same guy has had a monopoly on the mayor's office for years, yet is widely hated. So how did he stay in office? In the last election while I lived there, less than 2% (yes, TWO percent) of registered voters actually voted. Or at least that was what was reported to the SoS office... there were irregularities sufficient that an investigation was scheduled, but nothing ever came of it.
I'm reminded of a tale from the 1972 Presidential election, from someone I knew who was doing a door-to-door survey: When asked their views, most people espoused typical conservative points. But the final survey question was: Who do you think would make a good president? And the most common answer, even from very conservative voters, was "Teddy Kennedy" (then the most liberal man in all of politics). The conclusion from the survey's data was that most voters didn't actually know what a given candidate stood for, but they sure as hell knew the names. (Mind you this was back when most of these voters would remember JFK firsthand.)
Here in Montana, if someone has an abysmal rating, they're likely to get voted out. One might offer a correlation with the much better educational level...
More than an advantage; in California, it's a shoo-in.
At the last major election before I moved back out of CA -- I forget the year, mighta been 2010 -- public satisfaction with elected state officials was just 13%.
Yet *100%* of incumbants got re-elected. (I checked every race listed on the Secretary of State site. There were NO exceptions.)
If that ain't name-recognition at work, well, you tell me.
And yes, CA has more than its fair share of yellow-dog Democrats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
The term originated in the late 19th century. These voters would allegedly "vote for a yellow dog before they would vote for any Republican".
Small world :) I'd like to see pricks like that one's pet shyster get disbarred, but not likely to happen very often.
We are all in the wrong business!
I've been heard to say that the first freedom is economic, because it allows you to exercise the second freedom, which is the ability to travel, and that all other freedoms ultimately derive from these.
A comment below by drinkypoo also gave me this thought: so many tech nerds are drooling over the social virtues of autonomous cars not so much for the technology and the proposed safety, but because when it comes to =other= people, they're control freaks. Much easier to control people (which is to say, make them unable to annoy said nerds) who can only travel as their car will, not as they wish.