Nobody is saying MSFT shouldn't make the products.
They're saying they shouldn't come with the OS. There is a clear distinction.
Specially since they have actively developed software with vendor-lockin in mind. That's why MS word is not documented and changes enough from year to year. That's why samba had to reverse engineer the network protocol, why IE invented it's own CSS standard, etc...
If MSFT were truly innocent they'd say "this is the file format, if you can write an editor for cheaper go for it". They don't because they know that would spell the end of their stranglehold. Even their "open XML" spec will likely contain re-encoded (encoding armored) binary blobs or some other way of messing with others trying to compete.
Maybe I'm just odd but I don't live in this dreamworld where you can do anything you want to the client because they'll give you money anyways.
Even as a 20 yr old kid doing projects for companies I'd document everything. I knew that I wouldn't be at the location forever and I wanted them to get the most bang for their buck. Did I want to be unemployed? No. I just wanted to be right.
And honestly quite a few of my employers enjoyed that openness. That they knew they were paying for software that let them have choices. Often it included keeping me on longer than the project (e.g. to help pay for school) but often it was just that they got more benefit out of the project than if I made everything closed.
Actually you've just totally missed my point. You have a choice to install ubuntu or gentoo or debian or kboppix or fedora or suse or...
You have a choice.
When the only effective place to get a computer is dell, gateway, toshiba, sony or lenovo and they all bundle only windows and only support windows and use hardware which isn't fully speced out or compliant and only runs in windows...
That's when you have a monopoly. Which is one thing, but then to exploit it further by bundling non compliant tools is worse.
Ok, pretend this happened 50 years ago when cars were "newer". You're telling me all this msft behaviour is "really recent" and not just more of their behaviour from the VERY FUCKING BEGINNING?
"MS-DOS isn't ready until Lotus won't run" isn't just a joke.
If 50 years ago they only sold gas to Ford cars we'd all be in Ford cars and there would be a fringe biodiesel outfit of "geeks" (well more than their is now) running in cars made by amateurs who eventually got talented enough to turn pro.
The point is you *SHOULD* be free to *MAKE YOUR OWN* msft bundle.
Msft shouldn't be allowed to keep cramming shit in their (at the users expense).
And yes, for the record I'm an OSS developer. I'm the author of the LibTom* series of cryptographic libraries (though my domain got hi-jacked so right now I guess I'm not distributing it anymore).
To carry on your analogy though it'd be like your car only runs fuel from Esso, can only use radios from Sony and the thing can only drive on toll roads.
MSFT doesn't want competition which is why they bundle non-compliant tools with their OS and then don't document the rest.
You bought Word why can't you know the file format? I mean in most of my jobs where I have a file or network protocol I must use ASN.1 and document it to the hilt (or if they don't ask I do it anyways because I'm professional).
Why can I buy a 800$ office suite and then not be able to write my own scripts to work with the files it produces?
You think IE is a web browser? It's not. (technically neither is firefox but at least it's closer and free to install or remove)....
Being half-way informed is not "being an expert". you can know about firefox without knowing how to program or build it. The point of this anti-competition "bs" is to allow consumers to have a choice.
You're just so used to being told what to eat, listen to, watch, do that you forgot you're an individual. You have the right to choose in a free market economy. Not to be shoveled whatever can make somone the most profit.
This applies to a lot of other aspects to life. What if 4/5 gas stations started only serving Ford cars? Would you then say "we must buy ford cars obviously". Or you could only drink Coca-Cola at the olympics (which is largely funded with public funds btw)? What if schools were forced to teach I.D. and that's "just the way it is".
Why is it hip to be knowledgeable about what they teach in schools but not about what MILLIONS of people use on their computers EVERYDAY to progress society from a conventional form to an immediate form?
If MSFT wasn't bundled with shit you don't need it wouldn't cost 200$. It's really that simple.
You'd pay less than 100 for it and then choose the add-ons you want.
The problem is people like you are sheep and you think if you "go with the flow" you're being a good member of society. If you really want all the MSFT shit you should have a choice. but if all I want is the kernel why do I pay for IE or WMP or MSN or... ?
The actual full version of Windows is more than 200$ in Canada anyways. 130$ buys the OEM HOME cd...
I don't see where this "grandma can't figure it out".
I know a lot of subserviant 30 yr old people. They just assume "learning bad" so they pick the path of least fucking resistance for their entire life.
If a 5 yr old kid can figure out how to use a Mac his mother brought home in 1987, why couldn't a 20 yr old adult do the same? I could hardly read properly before I was playing the piano and using a Mac (and vic-20).
Face it. The "it hard it bad" is just lazy and breeds contempt for the future.
Do you really want to see a day where people are so stupid that we can't figure out any technology (from programming to car maintenance, etc...). We'll be like that atlantis plantet in ST:TNG. Dying from their own ignorance.
I for one don't want to die in paradise from radiation poisoning. Do you?
Apple is just as evil. The fact they can still bundle hardware/software combos is beyond me specially since most of their hardware amounts to overpriced underperforming PCs of yesteryear (ahem, G4 laptops? what the fuck is that?).
Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because Apple isn't getting "sliced" (hehehe) in the court of anti-stupid business practices doesn't mean what MSFT is doing is right.
If we really had a free market you could buy that quality apple hardware and rightfully run anything you wanted on it (try getting hardware support for a mac running linux...). Or you could run Mac OSX on any compliant piece of hardware (which basically means x86 or PPC now). etc...
"choice" though scares people. They think if they "choose" to buy a monopoly driven piece of crap that's good enough.
I mean you can either buy that PC with windows... or... move to a farm in EASTERN FUCKING EUROPE AND NEVER MINGLE WITH SOCIETY!
It's a fucking fact of life that you need to have a computer around to mingle with society. Maybe not in your home but nearby (school, library, etc). And if your only choice is that Mac with OSX or PeeCee with Windows... you DON'T have a choice.
IE is bundled with the OS. Does IE even remotely come close to wc3 compliance? How many sites use ActiveX or whatever else because it was there?
WMP is bundled as well. Right now it supports mpeg but I can see a time where that isn't the case in favour of WMA/WMV.
AD is RFC compliant? Is file sharing? etc...
Windows is designed largely not to interoperate with any other OS or toolset. Which you may argue is their right but the whole point of fair competition practices is to give *YOU* better choices.
I mean in the *NIX world my Linux NFS share can be mounted by a BSD OS just fine. Why do I have to reverse engineer windows file sharing to get samba? If Windows was forced to RFC all it's standards you'd have a choice on whether to be tied to a windows desktop for NT domain logins and MS exchange or a linux one.
I guess you don't like having choices. Maybe you like being Bills little bitch. That may be good for you but apparently it isn't for other people.
How can we simultaneously complain that tech smarts are going down and then support what Microsoft and the likes (e.g. dell, gateway, etc) do.
It's just plain wrong. PERIOD.
People should be forced to open their eyes. Install mozilla isn't that hard. Knowing their is a choice is a good thing. It makes them more powerful in that they don't have to bow before Bill gates and beg for innovation.
Besides, this isn't 1985. Any adult now 40 should have had some experience with a computer in the last 20 years. And frankly the people 30 now do. So fuck the older gen. How about we make a market that will be useful in the next 50 years?
Kids grow up with computers all the time now. They're not as stupid as Msft execs want us to believe.
Um no, cuz if Windows only came with enough to setup the computer it wouldn't cost four hundred fucking dollars. It'd be like 69.95$ or something. Then you can buy IE for 50$ if you want or WMP for 50$ and still be ahead of the game.
Imagine if you could buy windows for 69.95$ then throw whatever you wanted on it (e.g. mozilla, mplayer, open fucking GL). *YOU* would be in control of what you used. *HAVE* you ever noticed that MSFT deviates from spec with every new technology? I can only wonder what *A* meeting with their execs must be like. "let's see how we can totally screw over the users so we can buy extensions on our homes...". You'd have *CHOICE* in the matter. Almost as if you were *FREE* to use the *MARKET* to your advantage.
Ahem.... in most distros you have a choice. I could run ff or moz or konq or lynx... etc...
By bundling IE with Windows microsoft effectively takes advantage of the fact they're there already. Then they suffiently deviate from standards (in subtle but important ways) to the point where you have two web dev teams. One for "microsoft" and one for "the rest".
Now years later we're stuck. IE is just "everywhere" and short of getting Microsoft to stop exploiting the monopoly they hold there isn't much anyone can do other than slowly erode their public confidence.
Sure you don't have to buy windows and yes I think most companies like Dell are lame for selling out, but that doesn't change the fact they shouldn't lock people in.
Windows should be just at home with "mshtml.dll" being deleted and replaced wite gecko as any other OS.
Stop bundling shit with your OS. Sell the OS and separately the add-ons.
Christ almighty is it really that fucking hard?
For the record I think any other OS (e.g. SUSE or Redhat) that aligns with one technology or another (e.g. mysql or gnome or...) should de-bundle as well. At least most distros (debian, gentoo,...) are neutral and allow the USER to CHOOSE what they want to use.
But seriously MSFT execs just don't fucking get it. This isn't 1989... you can't just bundle more and more with the OS and hope nobody notices in the name of the almighty dollar.
I don't believe your logic. How does the manufacturer get the idea that something is worth making? Because the wholesalers buy a lot of it. And why would they? Because the customers do.
So...
If people stop buying and start returning shit windows only products maybe the message will go up the chain the same way the positive message goes.
No actually I routinely ask "will this work in linux" and get the blank stares. they don't specifically say no. So when I buy something that is "supposed to" be chipset compatible and it doesn't work I say it's defective.
And frankly I don't care if it hurts the stores. They don't have to stock kitchy bullshit windows only products. They just do that under the guise of "well everyone else does".
It's called character.
Which is why I like stores where I can order things like proper Tyan or Gigabyte motherboards instead of ECS or Asus shite. I can get real Samsung memory instead of some noname korean knock off [yeah I know...], etc..
Particularly I'm pointing the finger at the "best buys" type stores of the world.
I think the point is pci/usb/etc are all well covered specs. Manufacturers should stop being asses and be accountable for their designs.
Why shouldn't a PCI network card work in Linux?
More so why is it bad for me to demand that? It means their card works in yet another market. That can't be a bad thing. It also doesn't mean they have to write or even maintain drivers. There are enough OSS folk who would gladly write drivers for openly specified pieces of hardware.
Also though there are devices labeld "ac97 compliant" for instance that aren't. Then there are graphic devices like "radeon" where the radeon drivers don't work because it's a laptop and not a desktop, etc, etc, etc.
Holding them accountable is the only way. Either provide drivers, provide specs or sponsor drivers. Otherwise you're not selling hardware. You're selling plastic and various metal/composites.
nice AC flamebait. Does your mother dress you in the morning?
No, I see taking things back as sending a message that manufacturers have to start supporting the device and not windows. Back in the day you had to give out the specs for your hardware because "drivers" didn't really exist. Now we have windows and they're lazy.
Fuck that, I bought the hardware and I want to use it.
If it means I return hardware that works in windows but isn't documented and doesn't follow others specs [like AC'97] then so be it. Maybe that will send the signal that the producers have to be more responsible.
I mean think about it. What costs more? Documenting your device then hiring some lacky intern to code a windows driver or just documenting the device and putting a PDF on a website and let the OSS world sort it out?
Few products list the chipset. They say something like "Belkin 802.11g" when internally it can be anything from intersil to broadcom or atheros or...
So you can't tell just from the box name you need the chipset. Same for sound cards. "sound max" ac'97 pci devices are horrible in linux because they're not standard compliant. cmipci are usually very good by comparison.
Yes, it would be ideal if the box said "we use this chipset, this revision, etc" but they don't because they assume you'll use their [often crappy] windows drivers.
Their big problem is that they're highly incompetent windows dwelling idiots. So there is only so much they can report before they have to make up shit.
A real hardware site would cover more than custom expensive PCs.
Like what of servers? rackmountables? cheaper desktops for poorer people? benchmarks of things that aren't games or synthetic? etc...
All those require them to have two bits of knowledge between the staff.
Really? I think the number of people who bought the cards for HDCP support and not the 3000fps they can get in Doom3 is fairly low.
Basically do what I do. If I buy something that says "AC'97" or "PCI-Express" compatible and doesn't have linux drivers [or compatible drivers] I just return it saying it's defective. So far I've been 100% successful with only having to be marginally rude:-)
So if you bought the card assuming HDCP support worked out of the box and it doesn't return it. If everyone did the same you'd see retailers scrambling to avoid selling them like the plague.
Slashdot Mirror
Nobody is saying MSFT shouldn't make the products.
They're saying they shouldn't come with the OS. There is a clear distinction.
Specially since they have actively developed software with vendor-lockin in mind. That's why MS word is not documented and changes enough from year to year. That's why samba had to reverse engineer the network protocol, why IE invented it's own CSS standard, etc...
If MSFT were truly innocent they'd say "this is the file format, if you can write an editor for cheaper go for it". They don't because they know that would spell the end of their stranglehold. Even their "open XML" spec will likely contain re-encoded (encoding armored) binary blobs or some other way of messing with others trying to compete.
Maybe I'm just odd but I don't live in this dreamworld where you can do anything you want to the client because they'll give you money anyways.
Even as a 20 yr old kid doing projects for companies I'd document everything. I knew that I wouldn't be at the location forever and I wanted them to get the most bang for their buck. Did I want to be unemployed? No. I just wanted to be right.
And honestly quite a few of my employers enjoyed that openness. That they knew they were paying for software that let them have choices. Often it included keeping me on longer than the project (e.g. to help pay for school) but often it was just that they got more benefit out of the project than if I made everything closed.
Tom
Actually you've just totally missed my point. You have a choice to install ubuntu or gentoo or debian or kboppix or fedora or suse or ...
...
You have a choice.
When the only effective place to get a computer is dell, gateway, toshiba, sony or lenovo and they all bundle only windows and only support windows and use hardware which isn't fully speced out or compliant and only runs in windows
That's when you have a monopoly. Which is one thing, but then to exploit it further by bundling non compliant tools is worse.
Tom
Ok, pretend this happened 50 years ago when cars were "newer". You're telling me all this msft behaviour is "really recent" and not just more of their behaviour from the VERY FUCKING BEGINNING?
"MS-DOS isn't ready until Lotus won't run" isn't just a joke.
If 50 years ago they only sold gas to Ford cars we'd all be in Ford cars and there would be a fringe biodiesel outfit of "geeks" (well more than their is now) running in cars made by amateurs who eventually got talented enough to turn pro.
Tom
I was a relative newb to Linux when I moved to Gentoo from WinXP.
:-)
Not everyone is as stupid as your friend.
But as you pointed out other bundled OSes do exist. They're good "starter" distros
Tom
*cough* knoppix *cough* ubuntu *cough* fedora *cough* SLES *cough* ...
...
....
Linux and BSD are different in that you can get the all in one bundles or
*cough* debian *cough* DSL *cough* gentoo *cough*
Get the "roll your own" distros.
Just because you're too lazy to spend the 5 mins it takes to look around doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Why can't I tell Dell to install fedora? Or at the very least NOT install anything?
Tom
The point is you *SHOULD* be free to *MAKE YOUR OWN* msft bundle.
Msft shouldn't be allowed to keep cramming shit in their (at the users expense).
And yes, for the record I'm an OSS developer. I'm the author of the LibTom* series of cryptographic libraries (though my domain got hi-jacked so right now I guess I'm not distributing it anymore).
Tom
To carry on your analogy though it'd be like your car only runs fuel from Esso, can only use radios from Sony and the thing can only drive on toll roads.
...
MSFT doesn't want competition which is why they bundle non-compliant tools with their OS and then don't document the rest.
You bought Word why can't you know the file format? I mean in most of my jobs where I have a file or network protocol I must use ASN.1 and document it to the hilt (or if they don't ask I do it anyways because I'm professional).
Why can I buy a 800$ office suite and then not be able to write my own scripts to work with the files it produces?
You think IE is a web browser? It's not. (technically neither is firefox but at least it's closer and free to install or remove).
Tom
more bullshit.
Being half-way informed is not "being an expert". you can know about firefox without knowing how to program or build it. The point of this anti-competition "bs" is to allow consumers to have a choice.
You're just so used to being told what to eat, listen to, watch, do that you forgot you're an individual. You have the right to choose in a free market economy. Not to be shoveled whatever can make somone the most profit.
This applies to a lot of other aspects to life. What if 4/5 gas stations started only serving Ford cars? Would you then say "we must buy ford cars obviously". Or you could only drink Coca-Cola at the olympics (which is largely funded with public funds btw)? What if schools were forced to teach I.D. and that's "just the way it is".
Why is it hip to be knowledgeable about what they teach in schools but not about what MILLIONS of people use on their computers EVERYDAY to progress society from a conventional form to an immediate form?
SHEEP!
Tom
If MSFT wasn't bundled with shit you don't need it wouldn't cost 200$. It's really that simple.
... ?
...
You'd pay less than 100 for it and then choose the add-ons you want.
The problem is people like you are sheep and you think if you "go with the flow" you're being a good member of society. If you really want all the MSFT shit you should have a choice. but if all I want is the kernel why do I pay for IE or WMP or MSN or
The actual full version of Windows is more than 200$ in Canada anyways. 130$ buys the OEM HOME cd
Tom
Tell me how much fun it is to network to said setup from BSD or Linux distros. ...
Yeah, shut your gob.
Tom
I don't see where this "grandma can't figure it out".
I know a lot of subserviant 30 yr old people. They just assume "learning bad" so they pick the path of least fucking resistance for their entire life.
If a 5 yr old kid can figure out how to use a Mac his mother brought home in 1987, why couldn't a 20 yr old adult do the same? I could hardly read properly before I was playing the piano and using a Mac (and vic-20).
Face it. The "it hard it bad" is just lazy and breeds contempt for the future.
Do you really want to see a day where people are so stupid that we can't figure out any technology (from programming to car maintenance, etc...). We'll be like that atlantis plantet in ST:TNG. Dying from their own ignorance.
I for one don't want to die in paradise from radiation poisoning. Do you?
tom
Apple is just as evil. The fact they can still bundle hardware/software combos is beyond me specially since most of their hardware amounts to overpriced underperforming PCs of yesteryear (ahem, G4 laptops? what the fuck is that?).
... or ... move to a farm in EASTERN FUCKING EUROPE AND NEVER MINGLE WITH SOCIETY!
... you DON'T have a choice.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because Apple isn't getting "sliced" (hehehe) in the court of anti-stupid business practices doesn't mean what MSFT is doing is right.
If we really had a free market you could buy that quality apple hardware and rightfully run anything you wanted on it (try getting hardware support for a mac running linux...). Or you could run Mac OSX on any compliant piece of hardware (which basically means x86 or PPC now). etc...
"choice" though scares people. They think if they "choose" to buy a monopoly driven piece of crap that's good enough.
I mean you can either buy that PC with windows
It's a fucking fact of life that you need to have a computer around to mingle with society. Maybe not in your home but nearby (school, library, etc). And if your only choice is that Mac with OSX or PeeCee with Windows
Tom
IE is bundled with the OS. Does IE even remotely come close to wc3 compliance? How many sites use ActiveX or whatever else because it was there?
WMP is bundled as well. Right now it supports mpeg but I can see a time where that isn't the case in favour of WMA/WMV.
AD is RFC compliant? Is file sharing? etc...
Windows is designed largely not to interoperate with any other OS or toolset. Which you may argue is their right but the whole point of fair competition practices is to give *YOU* better choices.
I mean in the *NIX world my Linux NFS share can be mounted by a BSD OS just fine. Why do I have to reverse engineer windows file sharing to get samba? If Windows was forced to RFC all it's standards you'd have a choice on whether to be tied to a windows desktop for NT domain logins and MS exchange or a linux one.
I guess you don't like having choices. Maybe you like being Bills little bitch. That may be good for you but apparently it isn't for other people.
Tom
Who cares about grandma? Their are more people (in a position to spend) sub-60 years old than over.
How many 65 yr olds do you think are in Best buys anyways?
Comments like that are why in 25 years you're going to be subserviant to some other master race.
"oh, who can figure out microwaves anyways. These things are too hard to program!!!"
Tom
Stupid.
How can we simultaneously complain that tech smarts are going down and then support what Microsoft and the likes (e.g. dell, gateway, etc) do.
It's just plain wrong. PERIOD.
People should be forced to open their eyes. Install mozilla isn't that hard. Knowing their is a choice is a good thing. It makes them more powerful in that they don't have to bow before Bill gates and beg for innovation.
Besides, this isn't 1985. Any adult now 40 should have had some experience with a computer in the last 20 years. And frankly the people 30 now do. So fuck the older gen. How about we make a market that will be useful in the next 50 years?
Kids grow up with computers all the time now. They're not as stupid as Msft execs want us to believe.
Tom
Um no, cuz if Windows only came with enough to setup the computer it wouldn't cost four hundred fucking dollars. It'd be like 69.95$ or something. Then you can buy IE for 50$ if you want or WMP for 50$ and still be ahead of the game.
...)
Imagine if you could buy windows for 69.95$ then throw whatever you wanted on it (e.g. mozilla, mplayer, open fucking GL). *YOU* would be in control of what you used. *HAVE* you ever noticed that MSFT deviates from spec with every new technology? I can only wonder what *A* meeting with their execs must be like. "let's see how we can totally screw over the users so we can buy extensions on our homes...". You'd have *CHOICE* in the matter. Almost as if you were *FREE* to use the *MARKET* to your advantage.
(hint: read the bold words
Tom
Ahem.... in most distros you have a choice. I could run ff or moz or konq or lynx ... etc...
By bundling IE with Windows microsoft effectively takes advantage of the fact they're there already. Then they suffiently deviate from standards (in subtle but important ways) to the point where you have two web dev teams. One for "microsoft" and one for "the rest".
Now years later we're stuck. IE is just "everywhere" and short of getting Microsoft to stop exploiting the monopoly they hold there isn't much anyone can do other than slowly erode their public confidence.
Sure you don't have to buy windows and yes I think most companies like Dell are lame for selling out, but that doesn't change the fact they shouldn't lock people in.
Windows should be just at home with "mshtml.dll" being deleted and replaced wite gecko as any other OS.
Tom
Stop bundling shit with your OS. Sell the OS and separately the add-ons.
...) should de-bundle as well. At least most distros (debian, gentoo, ...) are neutral and allow the USER to CHOOSE what they want to use.
... you can't just bundle more and more with the OS and hope nobody notices in the name of the almighty dollar.
Christ almighty is it really that fucking hard?
For the record I think any other OS (e.g. SUSE or Redhat) that aligns with one technology or another (e.g. mysql or gnome or
But seriously MSFT execs just don't fucking get it. This isn't 1989
Tom
I don't believe your logic. How does the manufacturer get the idea that something is worth making? Because the wholesalers buy a lot of it. And why would they? Because the customers do.
...
So
If people stop buying and start returning shit windows only products maybe the message will go up the chain the same way the positive message goes.
Tom
No actually I routinely ask "will this work in linux" and get the blank stares. they don't specifically say no. So when I buy something that is "supposed to" be chipset compatible and it doesn't work I say it's defective.
...], etc..
And frankly I don't care if it hurts the stores. They don't have to stock kitchy bullshit windows only products. They just do that under the guise of "well everyone else does".
It's called character.
Which is why I like stores where I can order things like proper Tyan or Gigabyte motherboards instead of ECS or Asus shite. I can get real Samsung memory instead of some noname korean knock off [yeah I know
Particularly I'm pointing the finger at the "best buys" type stores of the world.
Tom
I think the point is pci/usb/etc are all well covered specs. Manufacturers should stop being asses and be accountable for their designs.
Why shouldn't a PCI network card work in Linux?
More so why is it bad for me to demand that? It means their card works in yet another market. That can't be a bad thing. It also doesn't mean they have to write or even maintain drivers. There are enough OSS folk who would gladly write drivers for openly specified pieces of hardware.
Also though there are devices labeld "ac97 compliant" for instance that aren't. Then there are graphic devices like "radeon" where the radeon drivers don't work because it's a laptop and not a desktop, etc, etc, etc.
Holding them accountable is the only way. Either provide drivers, provide specs or sponsor drivers. Otherwise you're not selling hardware. You're selling plastic and various metal/composites.
Tom
nice AC flamebait. Does your mother dress you in the morning?
No, I see taking things back as sending a message that manufacturers have to start supporting the device and not windows. Back in the day you had to give out the specs for your hardware because "drivers" didn't really exist. Now we have windows and they're lazy.
Fuck that, I bought the hardware and I want to use it.
If it means I return hardware that works in windows but isn't documented and doesn't follow others specs [like AC'97] then so be it. Maybe that will send the signal that the producers have to be more responsible.
I mean think about it. What costs more? Documenting your device then hiring some lacky intern to code a windows driver or just documenting the device and putting a PDF on a website and let the OSS world sort it out?
Tom
Few products list the chipset. They say something like "Belkin 802.11g" when internally it can be anything from intersil to broadcom or atheros or ...
So you can't tell just from the box name you need the chipset. Same for sound cards. "sound max" ac'97 pci devices are horrible in linux because they're not standard compliant. cmipci are usually very good by comparison.
Yes, it would be ideal if the box said "we use this chipset, this revision, etc" but they don't because they assume you'll use their [often crappy] windows drivers.
Tom
Their big problem is that they're highly incompetent windows dwelling idiots. So there is only so much they can report before they have to make up shit.
A real hardware site would cover more than custom expensive PCs.
Like what of servers? rackmountables? cheaper desktops for poorer people? benchmarks of things that aren't games or synthetic? etc...
All those require them to have two bits of knowledge between the staff.
Tom
Really? I think the number of people who bought the cards for HDCP support and not the 3000fps they can get in Doom3 is fairly low.
:-)
Basically do what I do. If I buy something that says "AC'97" or "PCI-Express" compatible and doesn't have linux drivers [or compatible drivers] I just return it saying it's defective. So far I've been 100% successful with only having to be marginally rude
So if you bought the card assuming HDCP support worked out of the box and it doesn't return it. If everyone did the same you'd see retailers scrambling to avoid selling them like the plague.
Tom