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ATI Claims HDCP Then Covers Its Tracks
BigControversy writes "It looks like a big can of worms is being opened. The DailyTech.com is reporting that ATI sold millions of video cards knowing that HDCP support was not enabled. Despite that, the cards were sold and advertised to its customers as having HDCP capabilities. A day or two after this information was revealed, HDMI.org went completely password protected and ATI is now modifying key areas of its website, removing any mention of 'HDCP-ready'."
an opportunity for a class action!
Awww, I love ATI. I'd hate to see them in a bad light over this. Hopefully it's just a mixup and they are taking action to correct it.
"Some products boast HDMI connectivity, when they do not even have a physical HDMI connector nor do the products ship with an adapter. Even if they do, having a HDMI connector does not mean the board is able to output a HDCP-DVI signal."
How in the world can they ship this? It's not even a firmware bug.. It's missing in its entirety! Been disliking ATI recently.. this dropped them down to the "I'd rather buy a S3 Virge" video card level..
-B
I think ATI is going to have to do more than cover its tracks to get out of this one. Now that the proverbial cat is out of the bag there's no way some enterprising lawyer and disgruntled techies aren't going to start up a class action law suit. And this shouldn't even be hard to prove since it's obvious it just doesn't work/isn't supported unlike some lawsuits where they argue a product didn't "live up" to expectations.
It looks like the cached copy on Google will be the copy submitted in court. I just bought a new ATI card, one of the reasons was because they claimed to support this feature.
"...we dont care about the economics; we just want to be able to hack great stuff."
Making a mistake? Fair enough. Treating your customers like idiots and trying to hide what you've done, though, is not something that is going to fly in this day and age. ATI are going to pay through the nose on this one and doing stupid things like this to try to paint over the damage done is just plain stupid.
Come clean, apologise publicly, recall products, do whatever you can to ensure that you have supported and looked after your customers. But to do this sort of thing smacks of burying your head in the sand.
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
--- Nick, hard at work
If sufficient chaos ensues, perhaps this can be the issue that pulls HDCP requirements out of Windows. Without support from Microsoft (who has no real financial interest in HDCP), HDCP will probably fail in the marketplace.
Hopefully this little 'mishap' will be the thing that makes it such that all our new LCD monitors aren't obsolete after all.
Otherwise they are so wide open to being hit with a class-action lawsuit for bait-and-switch it's not funny. If they cannot replace the cards with what was originally advertised, then they should offer refunds as part of the recall.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
This appears to be a serious mis-step on the part of ATI. It's not clear that they intentionally tried to mislead people, but the signs sure point in that direction. It's possible some marketing wonk put out a memo that ATI is now "HDCP ready", and that propogated to all press releases without proper oversight or anyone picking and choosing which cards support it and which don't. Somehow, I doubt a company that has dealt with bleeding-edge technology for so long would make such a mistake. The alternative explanation is they pushed the fancy new buzzword, hoping that the average user would see it and say, "Oh, HDCP, I saw a PC-Magazine headline with that term, it must be good!" and buy the card. These users will never even know that they were duped. The more tech-savvy users are the ones that will really care.
And therein lies the rub. We, the "geek community" are making progress in educating the general populous about the importance of understanding technology, but there is a long way to go. Until more people learn to read advertisements critically and learn that knowing exactly what you're buying is important, companies will continue to perpetuate these deceiving business practices. In this case, ignorance truly is bliss, but it's the average consumer's ignorance that leads to ATI's bliss.
My guitar chord generator.
I'm almost tempted to buy a card now knowing it *doesn't* support HDCP so I can avoid all of this nonsense for quite some time.
Too bad ATi's Linux support isn't hot.
That being said, of course ATi should roll out a driver that has hardware HDCP enabled, or offer some form of compensation to previous buyers whom were mislead.
/dev/random
Well, it's time to admit something: I loathe "HD-ready" and all that surrounds it. DRM, TCPA, all that 3-4 letter acronyms that smell like "hand over your consumer rights".
Now, I'm normally not a person to hop onto FUD and vent it 'til it stinks, but can't we hype that a little 'til no moron buys that crap anymore, and see the whole DRMism bomb like a tacnuke? It would certainly help prevent stripping us of any of the few rights left on our scale in the "balance between producer and consumer" when it comes to content.
So far the consumer drones would buy it for the simple "booooooyehy, look at the stunnin' crystal clear display!" without realizing what comes behind it. They don't care that the content industry dictates what they may see and what not, after all, what they want to see is that latest blockbuster movie and not some small movie maker's gems.
But hearing that their $500 piece of hardware ain't gonna do it should surely be an argument.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
they could of course try to divert the attention or try to get a better image by making an optimized and open source version of their graphics driver for X.
But that's just me dreaming, and even if they did, that wouldn't make the problems go away. But it would certainly give them some soon-to-be-needed (or already-needed) OSS street credit.
But I just can't help getting the feeling that someting is missing from this story... it seems crazy that they would just sell the cards claiming them to have these features, and they wouldn't... at all. Would ATI really risk lawsuits and a bad image for that?
The AG is New York (Eliot Spitzer) seems keen on these sorts of things... Whenever some huge consumer action comes up, his name is usually someplace around.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Its already fairly common in the marketplace. My DVD player uses it, for example.
There's no chaos there. Vista will require HDCP-encrypted channels to display restricted content, which will include purchased online content, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD content, as well as CableCard and DBS content.
People's computers will either work with it, or they'll have to buy new ones.
The support of HDCP is not an optional thing -- the content will not be available without it regardless of what chaos ATI may or may not create through questionable marketing of their products. Since most, if not all, computer monitors do not support HDCP right now, that'll be the place there will be issues. But none of them will cause HDCP to fail.
Had to use tinyurl as slahdot cannot parse the wayback URL properly.
You can't hide what was on the website; there are too many archiving mechanisms out there that will reveal the truth. Then, if a fraud has occurred, there'll be class-action litigation undertaken.
If you have ATI stock, dump it, now, before the Chapter 11 filing; you might get a few cents out of it. Otherwise, make plans to obtain another adapter. If ATI can make good on the adapter, it'll be a miracle for them.
But if the info in the article is true, it's the harbinger of the end of ATI as we knew them. Pity.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
the news seems to have made their stock go up just a fraction
t ockquote
http://ir.ati.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=105421&p=irol-s
company lies-gets rewarded! They have now proven to be part of the great korporate kulture!
bosses and investors, partners for life!
Actually, rather than remove each reference to it, they should REPLACE it with references on how to get a refund.
My ATI gives BS and my HDCP card is DOA. HDML is MIA and I am PO'd and SOL.
CRAP
Between HDCP, HDMI, Blu-Ray, DRM, DCMA, and HD-DVD, I just get a feeling that its all about to crumble. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will both fail I believe and a 3rd technology will emerge at some point that doesn't have the backing of Hollywood. When will technology companies start producing technology again and stop trying to be the pawns of Hollywood.
I predict a lot of hits on the Wayback Machine this week.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Like the first post said, it'll end up as a class action suit most likely. Nvidia has the luxury of blaming the board manufacturers, ATi can't hide behind that. Vertical Integration isn't that bad until you screw up and get caught lying about it...
Now, this doesn't make nvidia the smarter purchase choice at this point, because none of their boards support it either. Maybe when the 7900 comes along in about a month or so though. Hopefully the board makers (evga, bfg, xfx, etc.) realize that they'd better get it out there after this fiasco.
ConsultingFair.com
I have strong suspicions that the original plan was to enable HDCP via internal chip "debug" (non-public) interfaces. This of course lowers the board cost and increases flexibility.
In fact, original HDCP specs don't mention anything like a "special" chip - I still have them somewhere. I suspect the HDMI guidelines have changed at some point, probably pretty recent, to a "separate chip" and it is being added in a hurry to reference board designs. (You can't see a place for it on any existing nVidia or ATI reference boards, that's for sure.)
So the cards were meant to have HDCP activated via software, but HDMI changed it's mind getting both nVidia and ATI into hot water.
It's not the crime that gets you into trouble....it's the cover up. ATI is foolish to try to cover this up. They should have just announced a "mistake" and made some offer to existing customers to make things better. They are a public company and the SEC is going to be very interested in this since they are listed on the NASDAQ exchange in the US.
I believe there are already external HDCP decoders available in the market. A previous topic listed them for sale in Europe.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Rather than remove the information. Denial is not a defense (there's water in de nile and creosote on de fence)!
You can't fix this with a driver. If you could this would be a non-issue. The video card needs a Trusted Computing Module chip installed that contains secret keys that the user cannot access. No chip = No HDCP. And it's not like there's a socket on most video cards waiting to be populated.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
im a bit confused, are we in 1984?
I hardly think I'm the only one, but I'll be one of the first to purchase the first consumer level graphics card that puts out an HD signal to a "legacy" DVI monitor. The concept of "illegal technology" just brushes me the wrong way, and I'm confident there's some entrepreneural South Korean or Singaporian manufacturer who just isn't able to, however hard he tries, give a rat's ass about what some *AA halfway round the world thinks of their customers.
yes, we have no bananas
It's everyone, not just ATI. Plenty of nVidia cards advertise it and don't have it. In fact, no video card in public release truely supports HDCP. So anyone who advertises it is lying.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
By changing their website they may be trying to keep more people from getting the misinformation, heading off many more dubed buyers. Granted that most anyone who buys the card(s) now could still claim to have gotten them based on previously read ads and statements that ATi made.
They should have put a big ugly banner on all of their pages stating that the previously made false statements were false, and then gone about removing the references from individual pages and put more detailed statements in the pages that involved effected hardware.
They KNOW they can't hide that they ever said it. If they don't, they are really dumb.
While I'm one of those who bought a card expecting something that I could use for the next 3-5 years, I'm also hoping this helps kill DRM, at least a little. If no one can watch the damn HD movies they're protecting, then MPAA might have a lot of explaining to do when the sales numbers come in. Good job, you protected it so well we couldn't watch it.
Don't sue ATI. Don't even buy ATI or NVidia if you don't have to. Keep your current video card for the next 3 years and stick to good old DVDs--at least until someone figures out what great/cheap HD-DVD player has a secret "strip HDMI" code and we get our fair use rights back.
Because otherwise, at some point, any rights we think we still have will be taken away on a whim, and we'll be living in a world where MPAA can remove even our memories of movies we've seen (unless we pay extra for that particular right).
HDMI does not inherently include HDCP. The specific is a bit loose in the way people interpret it. HDMI is the physical standard, HDCP is essentially a data layer standard. It's the same as wondering why you only get two channel audio if you use an SPDIF interface (AC-3/Dolby Digital). Sure, SPDIF can carry full 5.1 audio, but that doesn't mean it has to. This is the same with HDMI and HDCP. What I think most people are confused or frustrated with is some displays say HDMI support, and don't tell you that they require HDPC as well. You gotta figure that one out by visiting forums.
Slashdot.. where people join together in deliberate ignorance.
If you purchased the card for its qualities, then found out that you were LIED to, how are you going to justify purchasing again from that vendor?
Let's say that in a fit of egalitarianism, Apple allowed the iPod to play Ogg Vorbis. You bought one, then found out they lied and covered it up. You have a huge library of media, some of it in Ogg format.
Would that affect your decision to buy something from Apple again, especially an iPod? You'd want to check to make sure that it indeed does play that format. Extending this analogy, let's say that you want to make sure that Vista works on your machine with an ATI card, and ATI says, sure, it works fine. But it doesn't. Are you going to make damn sure that it does? How will you check if the drivers are unvavailable to you because the product, as yet, is unreleased?
Has ATI shown that they're both trustworthy and willing to admit mistakes and deal with the issue? No. Instead, they covered it up. I can't predict whether they'll suffer enough to go into Ch11, but it's not out of the realm of possibilities. What other product promises have they made that are now suspect? No, this is an ethics problem, not to mention fraud. ATI doesn't get away so easily with this.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
ATI has promised a card does something, and then it turns out it never did.
Which is why I don't buy ATI.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
How in the world can they ship this? It's not even a firmware bug.. It's missing in its entirety! Been disliking ATI recently.. this dropped them down to the "I'd rather buy a S3 Virge" video card level..
Ahhh, the good old S3 Virge. Still got one of them lying around. Whenever I'm faced with a machine that refuses to post(or at least refuses to display a screen) I plop in that card to rule out the possibility of the graphics card being the problem. Always works, no matter the OS.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Just another example of consumers getting screwed. Nothing to get worked up over. P.S I have a GeForce.
While what you describe might be occurring, I refer you to a basic lifesaving mantra:
ATI may just be stopping the bleeding, that is, first taking steps not to deceive any other potential customers. In fact, if they were to do anything else there would be a situation where they'd be saying "Sorry, we were wrong" while continuing to allow customers to get the wrong idea.
Watch their public statements and what they do next before rushing to judgement.
sigs, as if you care.
Do a google search with "inurl:www.ati.com HDCP", then compare the cached pages with the live ones. All mentions are still there.
Of course all those video cards are "HDCPI Ready". They *can* generate the encrypted content. No sweat.
But (and here's the rub), the content providers (strike that, the "copyright industry", or CI) have decided to not trust any "home-brew" system. Which means that the keys won't go to the cards (because the *system* isn't trusted) and the feature is now useless.
Of course, a new system can have exactly the same chip, and it will then work.
Its the CI backlash against the DVD crack (which, of course, a vendor of playback equipment was responsible for -- which is NOT being forgotten). Coupled with some bad crypto choices, and DVDs are now wide open. The CIs would want to prevent this, and are now qualifying everything (my opinion).
External boxes can only produce SD (DVD) quality output on analog, which is what Vista will generate as well.
ATI make chips, boards and drivers. They (in my opinion) couldn't care less -- they just implement the spec. They put it the feature, and now can't use it because of key control concerns; they have been caught with their pants down.
Is is possible for ATI to sue the CIs? Because if I were in ATI, I would be as mad as a wet hen right now.
Ratboy.
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
ATI isn't out to deceive us; oh, no! They're being a counterculture badass, fighting for our right to use unencumbered video transport systems.
Joe User: Can this card output HDCP? I wouldn't want to accidentally expose my system to any high-bandwidth video signals unless they're nice and locked-down.
ATI: Surrrre it can. We completely support content restrictions in the name of protecting copyright... *WINK*
Joe User: Oh. Thanks. Um, I can still watch Terminator on it, right?
ATI: Of course, in glorious, freedom-loving standard def.... You're WELCOME!
This whole HCDP thing strikes me as being very anti-consumer; I don't know of anyone who would actually want such a thing, since it essentially makes perfectly good equipment obsolete for no (technically valid) reason. The way I see it, it's a way for a few rich people to get even more rich, at our expense.
So, I put forth the question: can it be made to fail?
I would be po'ed if I bought a card claiming to have HDCP and wanted it, but personally, I don't. I would rather watch 720p content max than buy into this, or any other DRM scheme. We live in an age when companies are at war with their customers, and in a free market economy, the only way for a consumer to fight back is to not buy. That hasn't started yet in earnest, but I imagine it will. All the vid card manufacturers are to blame here, not just ATI as almost all have claimed this capability and don't deliver (only Sony does at present). What I am interested to see is all the HDTVs that have been sold over the last couple of year could potentially also get degraded signals if the DRM pundits get their way. I wonder what impact that will have on future sales.
Is this a way to hype up demand for DRM tech?
Some people say ATI is being really stupid.
But are they really stupid, or is someone really really cunning and ATI got paid off to "screw up".
This way with all the fuss etc, Joe Public will go: "Wow my next video card MUST HAVE HDCP".
So who's being stupid here?
At ATI, we are committed to conducting our business with the highest level of integrity, honesty and professionalism. Maintaining high standards are also critical for maintaining investor confidence and shareholder value as a publicly traded and world-leading high-tech company.
The Code of Ethics outlines the key principles and policies that define our business practices and formalizes these standards. The rules set out in the Code serve as a complement to the corporate by-laws, policies and other corporate requirements and directives governing the conduct of ATI and its employees. In its application, the Code applies to all ATI directors, officers, and employees, whether full-time or part-time, and to all other service providers including, contractors and consultants.
ATI's Code of Ethics extends to wherever business is carried out on ATI's behalf including ATI offices, business travel and any other work-related functions such as meetings with third parties, seminars, conferences and training programs. As everyone lives up to the expectations in all places of business, in this regard ATI's reputation as an excellent company with high ethical standards will be upheld.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
In this case, however, it sounds like the decoder functions are disabled at the chip level somehow. If a ROM flash fixes it, no harm done, only a bit of bad PR turned into good PR when the fix comes out. This does sound a bit worse though.
today is spelling optional day.
HD Ready = Has a DVI slot capable of carrying a HD signal.
HDTV = Has a DVI or HDMI slot capable of carrying a HD signal with HDCP compliancy.
Therefore, HDTV is also mentioned on some sites and would STILL be non-compatible.
BTW, This is UK at least, but I think it is correct for everyone.
karem
When all is said and done, nothing changes...
Does it state the 'features' on the box? But the feature was never there? I smell lawsuit..
Regardless of them being a good company or not, this is unacceptable and they should be closed down. Forever. No excuse for this garbage, except pure greed.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
... and Slashdot can handle wayback machine URLs just fine.
So far I haven't seen evidence that any major manufacturers of consumer video/audio are willing to produce a format that isn't backed by Hollywood. Would you spend tens of millions to gear up for manufacturing products that use a format for which people can't find commerically produced movies and songs? How many people will actually buy such a product?
HDCP has already been cracked, so it's just a matter of time before someone makes a cheap converter that decrypts it. Of course it will be illegal in the home of the brave, land of the free.
"Put your message in a modem, and throw it into the cyber-sea." - Rush
Well this new just sucks. I just pickup an Acer Aspire 5672WLMI, there's an ATI X1400 chip in it. According to ATI's web page it's supposted to be "DVI 1.0 compliant / HDMI interoperable and HDCP ready". How am I suppost to get so satifaction over this?
G.
Start spazzing.
I have to agree with Ratboy, it's all about the keys. It doesn't really matter HDCP whatever, what is important is the keys. If the hardware is not trusted and doesn't have the key, IT IS USELESS.
You can buy this card and that card, but you are jumping the gun until how the keys are going to be handled and who is going to be trusted comes out. Nvidia has the same supported BS but it doesn't matter. Right on Ratboy.
I eat Karma for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That's why I don't have any.
As you can understand all those sites reporting this hdcp issue will get no more ati cards to evaluate. Only yes-knodders wil get them.
Machinations fits to a tee what DRM is.
y word=Machination&goquery=Find+it!&Language=ENG
http://www.allwords.com/query.php?SearchType=3&Ke
They are indeed HDMI ready. HDMI is basically a DVI signal, and all you need is the proper cord to get your DVI into HDMI, but the DVI port must output a proper digital signal and not just the analog signal that can also be carried on DVI.
In otherwords, the ATI cards are putting out analog and digital via their DVI ports, so all you need is a DVI to HDMI cable (which isn't a converter, simply a different connector) to hook up to an HDMI TV.
I'm doing it with my ATI card, and it works well.
Video card manufacturers rarely include all the adapters needed to access the feed in every connector style, so it doesn't bother me that they haven't included the rarely used HDMI adapter.
Big ones, small ones, some as big as yer 'ead!
Give 'em a twist, a flick o' the wrist...
According to ATI's site, the X1600 is HDCP ready.
l
http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1600/specs.htm
DVI 1.0 compliant / HDMI interoperable and HDCP ready
Perhaps ATI marketing don't really understand it even though ATI techies and customers do.
That ATI are now trying to hide things from their google-cache-aware techie customers confirms this.
Sam
blog.sam.liddicott.com
So could somebody come up with a little app to run in the background to just get around this MS check? Sorry I don't know the details of how it works but it sounds kind of similar to how you can run DVD Region Free to trick the DVD player into thinking there's no region encoding on the disc. This might not be legal, but it's not like anybody gives a shit about that.
nothing
Personally I'm hoping for as many of these screw ups on the manufacturer's part as possible. I'm also hoping that HD-DVD comes to market soon enough before Blu-Ray that the outrage over incompatibility issues causes the Blu-Ray group to ratchet down their DRM stuff a bit. DRM is now a major obstacle to coming out with new consumer gear, and mark my words even the approved compatible products will break in industry unexpected ways. The buying public will not tolerate equipment that is as crash prone and glitchy as PCs are.
Ironically all these attempts to lock down HD-DVD and Blu-Ray to thwart piracy will probably accelerate piracy as people who have been buying EXPENSIVE HIGH END gear will feel little remorse in resorting to pirated material to display on their setups. The industry is fooling itself if it thinks it can keep real pirates from cracking their content by whatever method, when there will be such a huge demand from the installed based of early adopters.
It won't happen, but I would love to see legislation that forbids intentionally crippling products or creating some artificial market segmentation to insure some business model. Maybe when the HD-DVD Blu-Ray debacle really begins will we some come modification to the really bad legislation that is the DMCA. At least they are considering really spanking people the put Root-Kits in products. Maybe we need the CRMA (consumers rights millennium act) to balance some of this madness.
Letter To Iran
Wow they cover their ass faster than the new guy on D-Block.
So, I have a video card on my main workstation that is going bad. It's workable until I find a replacement. I've always been with Nvidia and had just last week decided to finally see what all this ATI hoopla was about.
... now, I have. No fucking way will I buy ATI ... for a long time.
As of this morning I hadn't made up my mind
You'd hope that but right now we have Decss, DRM, Macrovision, etc. Most consumers are not copying their dvds or breaking the encryption on their music downloads. For most people its honestly not a real bother.
The only people that will get royaly screwed by this are technically advanced users. "Normal" consumers will just pony up like they always do. Its just same shit different day.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
Do a google search for x1300 hdcp, then look at the google cache for the ati result.
It has this in it:"
# Flexible display support
* Dual integrated DVI transmitters (one dual-link + one single-link)
o DVI 1.0 compliant / HDMI interoperable and HDCP ready
Does it really matter?! If the very same consumer is not savvy enough to care about Rootkit's or their implication's why would they care this? As long as people that bought this/these product(s) are getting 60+ Frames on Battlefield 2, their rights as a consumer come in at a distant 10th on their list of priorities... People vote and elect officials that agree to marginalize the very same voters civil rights everyday. Now I ask a again, does anyone really think that somebody buys an 1900xt or 7800gtx to primarily watch HD content?! I am positive that the same crowd that is crying foul will find that they are resourceful enough to buy a tuner card or some other intermediate 3rd party device to facilitate HD content.
George Orwell warned us what the ability to revise history would bring. They'll try to point to the current specs and be amazed at any fuss. The common user will review the new web site and think It must have been other card I wanted. Much like Intel's great divide hush up, this will only be resolved with much publicity that might impact the bottom line.
and i was thinking that as a CANADIAN company, you might just have slightly higher morals that certain companies to the south. appearently i was wrong. do not expect me to buy from you in the near future.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
But I can't *really* blame them for dragging the ball on some DRM bullshit.
Did they change their mind about changing their mind? I went to the article claiming the ati coverup, and the article had a before and after screenshot of ATI, before and after they supposedly removed the reference to "HDCP Ready". I went to the google cache, which does in fact show "HDCP Ready" in it highlighted. Then I went to the current ati page thats not supposed to have the text any more, and it's there! Did ATI put it back up after seeing people were catching them, or is this just a bunch of FUD no one has caught yet?
The 3rd technology has already emerged.
l l the other outlets versus RIAA is a joke.
H.264 on standard DVD, with the upgrade path being ANY sort of higher capacity device.
H.264 means you can do 1080p (not 1080i, but 1080 progressive) with 5.1 audio in 1 MB/sec. That's about 3.5 GB per hour. That gives you 2.5 hours of 1080p on a standard DVD disk. You can squeeze the main title in 2, and then use the remainder for all the other stuff in SD. Or, make it a two disk set. Both of these will cost FAR, FAR less than blu-ray or HD-DVD.
H.264 enables SD TV over standard broadband, NOW. Take a look at this: http://www.apple.com/macosx/cnbc/ . Thats technically 480p content. Its playing at 675 kbit/sec, or 84.73 KB/sec. 720p content is similarly small; you'll have no problems whatsoever fitting everything you'd want on a single title blu-ray disk onto a standard dvd if your encoding with H.264 on 720p.
I suspect with a really smart encoder, using intelligent VBR type stuff, you can get 1080p down to an average of 800-900 KB/sec. Perhaps even less. If someone can get the standard DVD above the 3 hour of footage barrier, blu-ray/HD-DVD immediately become a niche market, at least until HDTV 2.0 comes out. Oh; and new displays, as well. But even with _today's_ setup, you can fire up Final Cut Studio, and produce a 2.5 hour feature length movie, slap in on a standard DVD in 1080p, and then put all your extras on the second disk.
H.264 enables 1080i HDTV on a standard dual layer DVD. You need a beefy processor to play it back, but various manufacturers have already produced embedded decoders. H.264 is the future of IPTV, of satellite transmission, even cable transmission. Most likely, the "upgrade" path is H.264 on standard disks, and then the elimination of disks altogether.
Why would I _EVER_ carry a pile of blu-ray disks around when I could simply walk with an iPod, or a mobile phone, or a flash disk, or some other portable media library, and wirelessly (bluetooth 4.5, or 802.11n, or whatever) "rent" a video from the blockbuster kiosk? Heck; strip out the middleman; just buy the movie from iMovie store, or Amazon's movies, or Walmart Video Online. Whatever; it doesn't matter.
The thing is, the entertainment industry is trying to drag us kicking and screaming towards a "secure" disk format, and they are about to be absolutely blindsided by the U.S. retail/rental entertainment industry. Walmart alone dwarfes the RIAA; Walmart+Apple+Blockbuster+Target+Amazon+NetFlix+A
Especially when Walmart can distribute videos at a cost of 5-10 cents via electronic (or rental, or flash) distribution, and blu-ray disks cost $23 wholesale! Ever met a Walmart purchasing agent? Those guys give new meaning to "hard barginer", and make your look like a fool and his money.
A properly devised mobile media library will end physical media. You'll carry 30% of your media around with you, with the other 70% being stored securely over the internet, either streamed from or from your media center system at home. Microsoft and Apple are both going this direction; the lack of HD-DVD on Xbox 360 has locked them into this path, and Apple's been dreaming of running the TV/Video market with H.264 Quicktime. Much of the consumer electronics industry is interested in Blu-ray/HD-DVD, but retailers are going to squeal when they see how much it costs, and are going to squeal again when one of their competitors ships standard DVD products with the same features at 1/10 the price; with the only disadvantage being 2 disk sets versus 1 disk.
HDCP, HDMI, Blu-ray, HD-DVD; whatever. Not that this is the end of DRM, that'll certainly be in both Apple's and Microsoft's schemes. But the content distribution of tomorrow won't be run by the RIAA/MPAAs of the world; it'll be run by the computer side of the tech industry.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
The idea that someone somewhere needs to approve of the hardware I buy before it can play content is anti-freedom, it's anti-competitive, and it's anti-consumer. The idea that a content provider can control whether I am able to save or time-shift content is evil. They should never have that power. It should be illegal for them to.
Don't buy any content protected this way. Remember good old DIVX (the Circuit City crypled DVD format, not the video compression standard). It died. This should too. I doubt it will but it surely should and I will recommend to everyone I know to not buy anything protected this way.
We need to fight this insanity of the content producers. They are looking to have us pay for the infrastructure they are using to broadcast to us (internet, cable, or sattelite) and pay for the content and then let them have complete control how we are allowed to use it. These people see treading on our fair use rigths as a way to have slightly higher profit margins and are doing everything in their power to make it happen. We need to start pushing to take back our fair use rights, make it illegal do deny us them, and start stripping away their free and clear copyright entitlements they've been so used to expaning.
If we could only remove our politicians motivation to do what the RIAA/MPAA wanted we'd probably be rid of this problem here in the US already.
set softtabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab nocp worlddomination
It's claimed that this can only be fixed at the hardware level. ATI is just going to have to prove everyone wrong and release a software hack that will let you play HD content on their cards. I'm sure they can get lots of help here on slashdot, maybe even setting up a FOSS project on sourceforge to do it.
All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
this is so far from a Score:2 post it hurts
HDMI is the physical standard
Didn't we all JUST go through a migration to a new video signal hardware standard, when we gave up VGA, et al in favor of DVI? Like within the past five years?
What benefit does HDMI offer to anyone? Besides giving content manufacturers an opportunity to get HDCP in?
i read the article in disbelief
this "Digital CP" council sounds like some sort of a cartel
15$ thousand a year for a license then 0.005per product!
unbelivable!
its this sort of legal cr*p that is killin innovation
The Harry Potter franchise alone is worth billions to Time-Warner. You think the asian OEMs don't look at these numbers when they place their bets?
You are using HDMI in place of HDCP. HDMI is simply a physical inteface. It carries the same signaling as does DVI-D with the adition of Audio over some extra wires. DVI and HDMI can very easily be converted to one annother and BOTH support HDCP signaling.
ATI has had "HDCP support" in their GPUs since the Radeon 8500, however just because the GPU itself supports HDCP doesn't mean that the graphics card can output a DVI/HDCP compliant stream.
The HDCP license for the X1600 boards is held in a secure ROM element of the graphics board BIOS, and with this element being a secure ROM its not updateable by software later - a board sold without an HDCP license without it in the secure ROM at manufacture time cannot be updated later.
With the X1x00 boards, the HDCP license is held in a secure ROM element of the graphics board BIOS, and with this element being a secure ROM its not updateable by software later - a board sold without an HDCP license in the secure ROM at manufacture time cannot be updated later.
HDMI is _PIN FOR PIN_ compatible with DVI (it's the exact same standard) with the added capibility of carrying 8 channel PCM audio over the same cable as well. This is why it's really easy to convert HDMI to DVI. DVI also allows HDCP support, as will UDI once it is released this year.
Fundamentalism stops a thinking mind.
Don't sue ATI. Don't even buy ATI or NVidia if you don't have to. Keep your current video card for the next 3 years and stick to good old DVDs--at least until someone figures out what great/cheap HD-DVD player has a secret "strip HDMI" code and we get our fair use rights back.
I'm so confused by all this damn HDCP and HDMI mumbo-jumbo that I think I'm going to be on my old TV and DVD player for a loooooong time. It sure sounds to me like if everything isn't juuuuuust right, with the planets all in alignment and everything, your content is going to get stepped down to low-resolution anyway.
I don't want to have to think about all this crap when I try and buy a piece of audiovisual equipment, or buy or rent a movie. I just want to put it in and know it's working. I don't mind them protecting the content - I just want to have some confidence that what I paid for is actually working!
I'm just going to stick with my DVDs. My 27" TV in the living room isn't HDCP/HDMI compliant, I think it's like 8 years old now. All it has are RCA and coax inputs. Unless it breaks, I don't plan on replacing it. I don't know what's supposed to happen when everything is switched over to hi-def. I'm sure not paying the cable company to rent a set-top box converter just so I can watch the TV I'm already paying for. I guess if the content stops working on my TV one day I'll just miss that content. The only reason I have the cable subscription is for the internet access anyway (it was cheaper to get it with basic TV than without).
Steve
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Bah, the screenshots clearly show that DailyTech is using Linux, they must be crazy.
On a serious note, however, how will this effect Xbox 360's, or would these custom ATI processors support it?
Mistrust kills companies.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Then some marketing genius figured out they could put a 15 cent audio input jack on the back of a radio and then sell the radio as "TV READY". The gist being that your radio wouldnt be obsolete when TV arrived-- you'd pipe the TV audio out through your radio speakers.
Of course when TV's did come out they all had built-in speakers, so nobody ever used this feature, but, yes, the radios were "TV Ready".
You're right:
e _Disc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatil
Holographic discs are on the way by Sept. 2006, just wait for Holographic HDD's as well (They're already being used by HP). Goodbye HD-DVD and Blueray, you won't even get a chance. Highly resuable discs with 300GB (And even more later on when technology improves) that last for over 50 years vs. HD-DVD and Blueray that has an already limited capacity, DRM infested, not reusable, and doesn't last long. You make the choice.
A day or two after this information was revealed, HDMI.org went completely password protected and ATI is now modifying key areas of its website, removing any mention of 'HDCP-ready'.
No doubt flushing it down the memory hole.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
We should be thanking ATI for this, because it serves to help alert the public to the dangers of DRM. I think ATI is making a noble (albeit maybe unintended) sacrifice in the name of freedom.
Assuming their customer service phones are still working, I actually do plan to call them and thank them.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
something like ?
Honestly, I do not see the point of including an HDMI output on a video card... ATI could save millions on royalties and maintain compatibility with computer displays (which use DVI) if they simply provided a $5 DVI to HDMI adaptor. I own a 10" DVI -> HDMI cable, and see no reason whatsoever that my video card should use HDMI instead of a more versatile DVI connecter, since it's merely sending a DVI signal over a cable that's designed to combine 8 channels of audio and DVI into 1 cable. People who own a display that has HDMI inputs but not DVI should not fret over having to purchase a $5 HDMI->DVI adaptor -- DVI cables are less expensive anyway.
:)
Furthermore, I do not know why anyone really cares about HDCP on a PC, short of Media Center PCs. Who would want to watch an HD movie on a small computer monitor with mediocre speakers? Most computer displays with DVI connectivity are LCD; I would much rather watch HD video on the 36" SONY Super Fine Pitch CRT in my bedroom than an LCD display (of any size).
ATI was probably banking on a driver solution for the HDCP output. They could have assigned HDCP keys based on the serial number of a card. Either way, I have seen HDMI and HDCP loosely associated a lot in this thread... they are completely different things. HDCP works on HDMI and DVI, HDMI simply combines up to 8 channels of audio and a DVI signal into one convenient and absurdly expensive cable
Yep that is what it smells like!!! Now who has the balls to start it?
First of all! if you go to ATI's Site you will see that ATI still has the line of text saying "DVI 1.0 compliant / HDMI interoperable and HDCP ready"
:P
Although this is a little misleading it is all together true! The actual ATI GPU can support HDCP. There is just nothing there to decrypt the signal and send the demodulated signal to the GPU. Now, nVidia is just as guilty at misleading its customers! Just because nVidia sells their reference design and doesn't manufactor their boards like ATI does doesn't get them off the hook.
The issue comes with an HDCP tuner with OOB capabilities. OOB stands for Out Of Bandwidth. The OOB signal is the encryption signal sent along with the HDCP signal and tells the processor how to decode the encrypted signal. Now the issue is this technology is still new and it takes time to develop. Slandering one company for something all the other graphics companies do is absurd!
HDCP = EVIL anyway! The only thing that is going to change in the end is that the content provider is going to win out. How does the consumer benefit from HDCP? By having to pay for HDCP content? We have had the companies knocked on their asses back in the days of Kazaa and free MP3s... Now with bittorrent we have a nice push of the shoulder but bittorrent with encryption will be a nice kick in the nuts! There needs to be a way people can have a secure P2P with out worrying about the man looking over their shoulder! I say we don't need no stinking HDCP
Which cards from ATi and nVidia claim HDCP but do not actually deliver? It'd sure be nice to find out which cards advertise it right on the box but do not deliver. I also happen to have a PNY brand GeForceFX 6200. I never paid attention to the box, was too eager to throw the card in my system and get some good gaming going.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
pWn3d!
It's the next version of Windows.
Program Intellivision!
As a college student that just completed a management class, it makes me think about situations like these. I wonder where on the ATI management food-chain the order came go ahead with this -- from the initial go-ahead to the attempted cover-up.
Apple is a big user of ATI chipsets and video cards, has standardized on the DVI video connector, and very probably has an eye on the home theatre market. If ATI has somehow given Apple the idea that their current chipsets support HDCP, they are going to feel the wrath of Steve Jobs and his Reality Distortion Field very soon.
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
Back in 1998 I ordered what was advertised as a Viper V550. The ad stated that it had an S-video port for TV-out capability. I received a V550 chipset on a V330 card--no S-video or any type of external port. It's not a knockoff card. It's a genuine DiamondMM. They must've had an OEM run or something.
A day or two after this information was revealed, HDMI.org went completely password protected...
What does this mean? I just went to HDMI.org and the site appears to work just fine.
This makes the article look suspect, maybe it does have support after all and the web site monkeys just pulled it down until they knew for sure, the web page they use an an example http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/specs.html
still has HDCP ready on it...not just the google cache as they claim
# Flexible display support
* Dual integrated dual-link DVI transmitters
o DVI 1.0 compliant / HDMI interoperable and HDCP ready
Check the Wikipedia node on HDCP. The crypto on this thing is a joke. Hardware that strips HDCP from DVI signals is freely sold in contries that aren't corporate oligarchies (which now includes the UK unfortunately =\ ). There might even be a substantial software path involved which renders hardware utterly irrelevant.
Not that I will be watching BD-ROMs/HD-DVDs anyway because I'm opposed to this horse shit on principle, whether or not it can be cracked.
I do support the right of a movie or music company to be paid for every copy of their work out there, with the caveat that they're willing to sell to me. That's why I legally rent DVDs and don't buy much music because it's mostly overpriced garbage. Ideally I wouldn't even watch DVDs. The hell if I'm going to be treated like a criminal by default though. Just say no to smoking the HDCP crack...
I think most of us dislike HDCP and hope it fails. Unfortunatly most consumers don't care enough to vote with their feet, or are too afraid everyone else is going to defect so they buy HDCP enabled systems too. Situation seems hopeless doesn't it?
Not so fast. What if we could get the major video card manufacturers to make sure everyone thinks this new technology works on their cards when it really doesn't. When HDCP content comes down the line these people will have a horrible experience when they buy the content and it doesn't work and are going to be loath to shell out more money for another 'HDCP enabled' video card. Then the public might dismiss HDCP video as a buggy and annoying product.
Of course it sounds like a horrible PR move for any video card company to make, even counting the extra sales it gets when people upgrade, but we (at least those of us who didn't buy one of the crippled cards) can be happy about their screw-up.
As a side note does anyone know what the anti-trust law is with regard to this sort of content protection scheme. In particular in situations like this which have clauses excluding open source video players, and given that there are certainly companies that do package open source video players as part of their buisness model (google now too I think) why isn't the consortium that defines these content protection standards in violation of the anti-trust laws.
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
HDMI is a superset of DVI. You lost nothing by going to DVI, but potentially gain more by going to HDMI. Here's the history. DVI is the hardware physically interface for flat panel displays that grew out of laptops. HDMI is a new interface that grew out of the home theater industry. It includes an insane bandwidth to support DVI signals that are not even conceivable today and 8 full studio quality channels of uncrompressed audio. The intent of HDMI is to replace the huge mess of analog cables in our home theater equipment. DVI is a computer standard for flat panel displays only.
Slashdot.. where people join together in deliberate ignorance.
Actually.. DVI does *not* support HDCP. HDMI support DVI + HDCP. And DVI and HDMI are not the exact same standard. HDMI allows or permits the DVI signal to be carried on it. It's a technical nit.. but HDMI is much more than DVI. I'm not familiar with UDI. COuld you post a link to the spec or an overview of it?
Slashdot.. where people join together in deliberate ignorance.
Sadly, my S3 Virge has gone missing somewhere. Now all I have is some lame Trident TGUI-9680.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
I used to be a fairly early adopter but I believe that I will be sitting out the entire HDTV goat rope until sanity prevails. The REALLY good thing that I can see with HDTV DRM is that consumers will be totally bewildered about the whole thing. With any luck at all, consumers will be so confused that they will delay adoption of the new technology until some sort of sanity is restored. Watching TV is going from a boob tube sitting in the living room to a very complex system, and that complexity will frustrate consumers. I seriously hope that enough consumers get so frustrated with the DRM associated with HD televison that they decide that their old NTSC televisons and DVDs are just fine. Another factor in the US is the planned forced transition to digital broadcast TV, which hopefully will trigger the beginning of a consumer backlash toward HDTV technology.
Anime makers seem to not feel the need to complain like the the MPAA and RIAA despite:
http://animelyrics.com/
http://www.animemusicvideos.org/
http://www.jameswong.com/ykproject/core.html
Then there's the Laziest Men on Mars, which quickly turns up http://kilna.com/ and http://www.kilna.com/D88BE0D2/music
free downloadable music.
And there's more like that out there.
What do we need MPAA and RIAA and their supporters for again?
The way AACS actually works (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AACS) is that the media contains an actual stream encryption key encrypted by an array of device keys. The decoder (which I believe is by contract necessarily hardware based) receives its particular encrypted copy of the media key, which is decryped internally. If this step can be done inside one chip (no external RAM bus to be sniffed), the only recourse is to try to break the actual encryption with no easy outs.
A day or two after this information was revealed, HDMI.org went completely password protected and ATI is now modifying key areas of its website, removing any mention of 'HDCP-ready'."
does it really matter if they pulled the info from the site or not (regarding) a class suit?
isn't this info is in the card's box?
That would be awsome, but will the popular content providers (controlled by MPAA and the like) release their content in hi-def H.264 without DRM restrictions that downgrade the resolution on non-HDCP outputs? If they do, will the studios allow set top DVD players to playback hi-def H.264 playback?
The current selection of popular titles in hi-def on DVD (to playback on computers, not set tops) is paltry and I don't see the selection expanding without software DRM (and OS requirements, like Vista) that restricts HD playback to HDCP devices. For example, since Terminator 2 Extreme Edition DVD with 1080p WMV HD was released in 2003, where are all the other popular titles? Now that Terminator 2's DRM has been cracked, I have a hard time believing the studios will trust any DRM that does not require HDCP and other restrictions built into the OS.
BTW, the output restrictions (requiring HDCP) built into Vista doesn't apply only to AACS (HD-DVD, Blu-Ray). It looks like it can be applied to any video content, including streaming downloads and H.264 on DVD. I predict popular content providers will restrict their hi-def content to OSs that have this DRM, like Vista and (I'm pretty sure) Tiger. I think the selection of HD on DVD content for legacy displays and OSs will be like today's selection of non-DRM legal music downloads.
It's hard to believe the major studios would not try to sell HD content to such a huge existing market. But with the Terminator 2 crack and the AACS fiasco (HD-DVD has been waiting for the spec to finalize), I think they probably are paranoid enough to require new hardware and software (including OS) for any HD content.
TO START
PRESS ANY KEY
Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...
Browse on over to: http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/specs.html .
Scroll down to Avivo(TM) Video and Display Platform and notice where it says
"# Flexible display support
* Dual integrated dual-link DVI transmitters
o DVI 1.0 compliant / HDMI interoperable and HDCP ready"
This article is completely invalid.
I submit for your reference the now defunct DIVX DVD format (not the codec) that was pushed by Circuit City.
1 99.htm
http://hometheater.about.com/library/weekly/aa062
IMHO DIVX was, just as HDCP standard is, a fundamentally flawed idea. If consumers would only vote with their $$$ and refuse to support these blatantly anti-consumer rights products then companies would stop trying to pull this garbage on us.
"A little greed is good, it makes our economy run, but blind greed without practical vision can result in stupid mistakes.
DIVX was a stupid mistake. "
-David
Unless they've changed their minds, all products features HDCP-ready on their site (search that term from the frontpage and see for yourself).
Anyone got a cached copy that they actually removed it? <grin> If not, maybe people should start proofreading before talking about class action..
have you been defaced today?
"The server rejected one or more recipient addresses. The server response was: 550 unknown user (contact@hdmi.org)".
Clever am I to notice that the pages are .asp... okay.... I (shuddering with self loathing) use... MSIE . Same error ;-) I notice that this is the same page that you are directed to when you select "Contact".
:
Checking further (with directory assistance) there is no listing for a phone contact for HDMI.org in beautiful Sunnyvale, CA....
Okay, so maybe their server is being slashdotted(dededed), so I try DIRECTLY emailing those shy fellows and get (drum roll please):
"Hi. This is the qmail-send program at yahoo.com.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
72.32.30.237 does not like recipient.
Remote host said: 550 unknown user
Giving up on 72.32.30.237."
It just keeps getting more funny...
Unless I'm seeing things, this link: http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/specs.html shows that this card is HDCP ready and that the line hasn't been removed at all. Is it ready or isn't it? If it is ready, the this whole story is a waste of time.
"Walmart alone dwarfes the RIAA; Walmart+Apple+Blockbuster+Target+Amazon+NetFlix+Al l the other outlets versus RIAA is a joke.
Especially when Walmart can distribute videos at a cost of 5-10 cents via electronic (or rental, or flash) distribution, and blu-ray disks cost $23 wholesale! Ever met a Walmart purchasing agent? Those guys give new meaning to "hard barginer", and make your look like a fool and his money."
You just said the RIAA were the middle men but it seems you are confused, retail is always the middle man.
Yea Walmart is tough, they're the ones keeping physical media alive.
Apple got lucky with the iPod and iTunes because they offered DRM to the studios before Microsoft could develop a standard people would accept but don't assume it will happen again.
When CD's stop being a reasonable option for distribution people will examine their options again and iTunes like pricing will become unfeasable...
iTunes doesn't offer anything, it just lets you access the music produced by the studios who are very capable of running their own services.
Lets see, i paid good money for a product that i was lied to about. Yes, the correct option would be to sue. that is what the civil legal system is for. They commited fraud, and should be held responsible.
Here in Amercia we dont normally let others walk over us. I dont know how it is in your part of the world, 'mate'.. ( speaking of idiots.. at least use normal terms, we dont talk like that here in the real world )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
A relevant wikipedia article that doesn't go into enough detail.
Close. Anonymous posting revealed the source, then it was a matter of tracking down working cyphers. Others claim they had working algorithms before that time.
On the other hand, knowing what we know now about that algorithm, calling it "encryption" is a bit of a stretch. Keys can be brute forced in a matter of hours. A more competant algorithm would be a tougher nut to crack (see the Xbox).
The ______ Agenda
Nixon's head: "I am not a crook's head!"
You could call anything the next technology. I could call MPEG-4 on DVDs the next technology. That doesn't make it true, because it's entirely possible you will NEVER see any studio release anything in that format.
The only HD format currently available is not H.264, but WMV9. HD IMAX DVDs, the Terminator 2 DVD, and a few other WMVHD-DVDs are already being sold, with Microsoft's own DRM, including a phone-home restriction placed on many of them... I sure don't want the next-gen format to be changed at the whim of Microsoft.
These are just completely ridiculous assertions. You could do MPEG-2 in 1080p in 1MB/sec as well... It'll just look like complete crap...
You can't possibly just give assertions as to the correct bitrate, as every bit of media will be different, every encoder will be different, and they will vary, WILDLY.
Really? How's that? Same content, same codec, same playback hardware, etc. Should only be a few dollars difference in the media and players, and that will go down to no difference shortly.
That's absolutely ridiculous. 720p is 2.67 times the resolution of 480p. It also has double the framerate if we're not talking about just films. How can you claim with a straight face it's even CLOSE to the same size?
You can get H.264 down to 100KB/sec if you want, IT WILL JUST LOOK LIKE CRAP. VBR encoding is already being used, and your assertions are all clearly baseless.
Because most people don't want to pay tremendous ammounts of money to store their movies on expensive media. Discs are so very dirt cheap (and compact, and mostly problem-free) that nothing can touch them.
Yes, absolutely everyone will be perfectly happy waiting to download 50GBs for each movie they've rented/purchased... Thereby getting charged TWICE... Once for the content, and once for the line they have to dedicated to non-stop movie downloading. Remember, HD-DVD isn't 10 years in the future... it's next month or so.
Nobody can copy 50GBs of data for 10 cents. The cheapest 500GB Maxtor hard drive I could find is just under $350, which means 10 movies per drive, at about $35 each... Gee, what a huge improvement over $23/each Blu-ray discs.
HD-DVD players start at $500. Hell, a device to playback 1080 H.264 content off standard DVDs will cost just as much. A computer fast enough to pla
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Speaking of S3 Virge video cards...I have one I can sell ya! HEHE!
There's not enough Darwin awards to go around!
Your seriously underestimating H.264. Take a look at http://www.apple.com/quicktime/guide/hd/batmanbegi ns.html
.8 MB/sec.
g alleryreel.html
File size: 148.4 MB
Resolution: 1920x816
Duration: 2:24
That works out to 1.03 MB/sec. Of course, the resolution is slightly less than 1080p; something to do with the aspect ratio. The 720p version is at
Look at this:
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/guide/hd/bbcmotion
File size: 93 MB
Resolution: 1920x1080
Duration: 1:33
That very neatly works out to 1 MB/sec for 1080p. So, 1080p video, distributed TODAY, using TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY, online. And Apple's encoding 720p at a bitrate 30-40% less; that means 720p feature films+extras will easily fit on standard DVD.
If you can get 1080p below 900 KB/sec, blu-ray/HD-DVD becomes unnecessary. You don't _need_ 50GB per movie. A standard DL-DVD will do just fine, and those are significantly cheaper to produce than blu-ray.
Don't be an asshat if you don't know what you are talking about.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
The Spatz box has already been pulled due to legal reasons.
Those are the same kinds of tricks you can do with ANY video. You filter the video to remove all noise, as well as most fine details, and it compresses down to very low bitrates. I can make MPEG-2 that small, as I said, but it won't look sharp at all. Without the uncompressed, or much-higher bitrate sample to compare to, a single video isn't evidence of anything.
If you want it to look good, you need much more space than a DVD can provide.
Quite the contrary. I know what I'm talking about all too well. I've encoded tons of material with H.264, and I'm seriously involved with video encoding. I certainly know far, far more than you could imagine.
It's pretty amazing that you think the entire industry would go out of their way to waste tons of money developing Blu-ray and HD-DVD, if DVD could even potentially work.
Besides, bitrate/quality of H.264 was only one of several issues I addressed.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
My Chaintech (nVidia) card says right on the box that it comes with a remote control and a PVR software package.
Neither were in the box.
Chaintech said "Sorry, must have been a misprint."
Big misprint, imo.