I understand having odd systems for compilers/kernels because you stream.. but this is a webbrowser... how many people have more than 1 copy of firefox installed?
Just increment the fucking revision count and be done with.
bingo. Anyone who says GCC is without fault can just sit down now.
That being said the facts are way in favour of GCC...
1. It's a collection not just C but Ada, Java, C++, Fortran and objective.
2. it's portable and can be used as a cross compiler.
3. It is closer to ISO compliance than MSVC by a long shot.
4. It's TOTALLY FREE TO DOWNLOAD AND USE [under GPL to modify/distribute].
5. It's optimizers well... first off it has more classes of optimization and what optimizations it shares with MSVC it usually performs better...
I mean it's really hard to find code that compiles better with MSVC then GCC. Even the marginal exception here or there doesn't outweight the first four benefits.
Typical FUD pushers though will play on anything to make it sound like the end of the earth. The rest of us will just keep using the distro of our choice and be productive just the same if not more.
"I have roughly a 1000 packages installed [some trivial, some large like Gimp]."... What does installed apps have to do with code maintenance?
Not all Gentoo boxes are built the same. Yet I'm able to use the software on my box just fine...
"I have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what version of GCC they used to develop/test their software with."... What's your point? Does this means you compiled it? Does this means that NO ONE tests against different versions of GCC?
You're saying from one version to the next things break all the time. I'm saying that's full of shit.
Sure there are bugs in 3.3, 3.4 etc series but the latest in each series is stable and can be used to build portable C programs.
I'm sure some of my programs were tested by people running 3.3.5 [or whatever is latest there], 3.4.4 or even 4.0.1...
I personally use 3.4.4 for all my development and emerging. Things just seem to work.
Imagine that.
As for the comparison... my code is bignum math and crypto. It has NO system calls in it at all. So if it's slower it's one of
1. Services are prempting it [nope] 2. The OS doesn't schedule the same amount of time [nope] 3. The compiler produces different code [yup].
You do realize though that they are not efficient and produce toxic hazards for landfills right?
I'd rather see buildings covered with vegetation that produces oxygene, cools the atmosphere and enables [to use the bizspeak word] nature to co-exist then millions of pounds of uneartly solar cells...
If in the summer [and heck winter] you can cut your climatization power usage that too would offset grid power usage.
Just go research how much an AC compressor takes. They're killowatts for small homes... Think of what an office complex needs... Imagine replacing that with grass, trees, moss, etc. Now imagine doing that to the tens of thousands of office complexes on earth...
I have roughly a 1000 packages installed [some trivial, some large like Gimp].
I have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what version of GCC they used to develop/test their software with.
As for comparing GCC to MSVC for optimization it was GCC on linux [2.6.7 I think] and MSVC 6.00 on WinXP. It's not really hard to see GCC winning given that it has way better schedulers, CSE, LCM, etc optimizers than MSVC.
MSVC is a faster compiler and probably takes less memory but GCC ends up producing better code in terms of size and speed tradeoffs.
ABI changes are not really an issue in the long run with open source as you can just recompile.
As for your code from 97 not working now. Shame on you. I have code [even with assembler blocks] that will buil with 2.95.2, 3.4.4 and 4.0.1... Just because you can't code properly doesn't mean others can't. Use the standards and avoid GNU extensions were possible.
Also as another poster pointed out VS hasn't really changed that much fundamentally. It's optimizer is weak and it lacks many C99 features for C at least.
Whereas GNU CC is free, professional, high quality and portable... hmmm I wonder where the value is...
Tom --... my software is used out of the box on platforms I've never seen. Can you say the same?
Depends on the scope of the project. Sure things like Firefox [re: not linux] are hard to add to because they are big...
But i'd say Linux is a hell of a lot more extensible than windows.
Say I want to develop a new device [/dev/toms] for some reason. I have the Linux Kernel SOURCE CODE for free to look at. What do I get in the windows camp for free?
And they really have to learn to distinguish between the kernel [that is Linux] and distros. The kernel for the most part is very stable. Yes, the bleeding edge [e.g. 2.6.12.3 may not work well] versions are a tad buggy but the recent ones [2.6.12 for instance] works just fine on my AMD laptop, AMD64 dual core desktop and P4 Prescott desktop.
Three different architectures with different drives, graphics, etc [my 64 has SATA drives too and a PCI-X graphics card] but they all work out of the box with a trivial kernel configuration.
I can take the kernel and use it with Gentoo. In this distro I can add/remove programs with a simple emerge command. You think installshield is easy? How hard is
emerge firefox
or
emerge -C firefox
etc, etc, etc.
This is just more fud from a person who obviously doesn't use [or take the time to understand] how the technology actually works.
I guess that's his job, to spread FUD to sell Windows. Unfortunately for him people are waking up and are not FUCKING MORONS anymore.
Shhh no they're geniOSes. I mean never in a million years would anyone else figure that out.
I guess what they don't realize is that they take a wack of juice. I have one of those coolers and it draws roughly 60-70 Watts to cool a small area. Imagine an area 10 times larger [hint power requirried doesn't scale linearly].
The real "environmently friendly solution [for homes and offices] is to realize this simple fact. It's cooler underneath the grass and soil.
More trees and grass, cover your campus and your buildings. Let them absorb the sun and voila. Some companies and appartments do this already. But it isn't a wide spread idea unfortunately...
Seriously.... VB is hard to write in a hex editor. What's your point?
Glade lets you DRAG AND DROP GTK+ controls onto a window.
The idea and this will shock you is that the core of your application shouldn't be written in the same project as your GUI!!!
If you write the workhorse of the project as a standalone library then you just glue a GUI to it you'll find porting [as required] easier but also working with the gui project easier on its own as the code is smaller...
Of course you're a windows programmer so you put all your code in one.C file and use batchfiles to build it...
What the real problem is Windows doesn't have real development tools for it. Which is why you don't use a crippled OS. Use a BSD or Linux distro instead.
Exactly. It's not really an invention as a series of trivial algorithms glued together.
Let's see, we need A to talk to B. We need a medium... mmm computers use electrons... mmm a wire.
Ok now we need to have a way of sending a message... maybe in some form of an enveloppe... oh we should have a start sequence and stop sequence... oooh... and we could put a header on this message, no packet... better yet call it a frame.
Ok now we can send data but we can't tell who... let's put a MAC address in the frame.... now we can address the frame to something and also tell where it's coming from. This is amazing...
Oops, errors... we gotta do a CRC!!!
Now we gotta figure out how to avoid collisions, we'll used some sort of carrier detect... But then how do we retry? I know we'll randomize retries!...
phew...... seriously.
I mean sure not all of those ideas would be obvious at first and I'm sure what we call ethernet today was not his first attempt either. So give the man his due... oh wait that was THIRTY FUCKING YEARS AGO.
Um how so? Before the move to MacOSBSDWHATEVER... let's see
1. Mac has a gui, windows has a gui. 2. Mac has proprietary file system. ditto for windows. 3. Mac has single tasked crappy scheduler. Windows doesn't. 4. Mac has SINGLE USER LOGONS. So did windows
Do I need to continue?
What distinguishes a *nix based system is not only the networking and process privilege isolation (that neither mac/windows had until recently) but the fact there were multiple users.
windows is windows, mac is mac. *now* mac is based on BSD and Windows is based on a *nix* like kernel.
What's your point?
As for the comment about linux being based on 1968's technology. If it works so what? Do we need "radically new paradigms"? I'm not against making new OSes... I am against radical shifts just because you're using something that is old [and stable and well known and well established and...].
I mean he might as well bitch that automobiles are stilled based on the Model-T... we should have five wheels now, two engines for redundancy, a mini bar and autopilot!!!
Actually this is bs. The majority of us OSS folk are writing ***PORTABLE*** tools that work anywhere. This is why you see firefox on mac, win32, bsd, linux, beos, etc...
This is why you see GCC on mac, win32, bsd, linux, beos, qnx, etc...
This is... and so on...
Only lame arrogant windows developers think that "linux using folk only write for linux".
Heck some of the places my software has and is being used doesn't even have a proper OS [e.g. PS2 and Gamecube].
On topic again, as the "inventor of ethernet"? What the fuck does that mean? It's not that impressive. I mean it's useful but so is sliced bread and we don't honour that guys name either! He did his part to make the world better. Groovy. Now step aside and stop milking something you did nearly a decade BEFORE I WAS BORN.
Take responsibility? They did, they put a big M on the front cover [and prolly the back too].
What? Are they supposed to go out and say "our game sucks because it has violence, please buy it!"... Fuck you. The game is hella fun and a good way to pass some downtime.
I don't "love rockstar" but I also hate hypocritical kneejerk "concerned parents" who want to make hell for everyone else because they fear things they don't understand.
You know what? It's fun to drive 90mph down a dessert road and bump a car off the road. It's fun to hear the cartoon "splut" as you hit someone. It's fun to open fire on cartoony looking cars and make them explode. It's funny that cars explode when upside down. It's cool how much detail there is. It's cool how well the entire world works together in the game, characters seem to be alive, etc...
It's a good game with a lot of work put into not just the graphical bits [e.g. violence] but the AI, structures, etc...
Oooh, ooh this is where I point out how stupid your post is and we argue about it right? Yeah sure you flamebaitng troll.
It's protected speech, it's labeled mature. If you don't like it go fuck yourself.
They don't show any violence [that I recall] during the commercials and frankly if you give your children enough money to go out and buy stuff unsurpervised then them at home playing GTA is the LEAST OF YOUR WORRIES.
Kids could just as easily use the money for drugs or what not. If you're not surpervising your young children [16 yrs] then letting them play a game is the least of your worries...
Anyways, nice to see you with a super high ID and posting flamebait almost makes me question if you're here for legitimate dicussion.
Why not just bell curve everyones money so the people who got stupid rich off this lose and the people who are at the lower end [getting killed by the person with the +1000 sword] get a boost.
The problem is the industry just follows the pack. Like doctors bitch about long hours? Why not just have shorter days [less stress] without as much pay?
Hell, why not finance med school with say a 10 yr contract? That way they end med school not broke, got a job for 10 years, don't work long hours, don't get super stressed out, do a better job, etc...
Must be because I'm some sort of fucking genious. I mean seriously, we'd rather pay them stupid amounts of money to work when they're exhausted and then put the stress of paying for med school on their heads.
When a doctor cuts me open to fix something I want the only thing on his mind is "don't cut something he'll miss". Not "can I make this months mortgage payment?"
Slashdot Mirror
I understand having odd systems for compilers/kernels because you stream.. but this is a webbrowser... how many people have more than 1 copy of firefox installed?
Just increment the fucking revision count and be done with.
Tom
bingo. Anyone who says GCC is without fault can just sit down now.
... first off it has more classes of optimization and what optimizations it shares with MSVC it usually performs better...
That being said the facts are way in favour of GCC...
1. It's a collection not just C but Ada, Java, C++, Fortran and objective.
2. it's portable and can be used as a cross compiler.
3. It is closer to ISO compliance than MSVC by a long shot.
4. It's TOTALLY FREE TO DOWNLOAD AND USE [under GPL to modify/distribute].
5. It's optimizers well
I mean it's really hard to find code that compiles better with MSVC then GCC. Even the marginal exception here or there doesn't outweight the first four benefits.
Typical FUD pushers though will play on anything to make it sound like the end of the earth. The rest of us will just keep using the distro of our choice and be productive just the same if not more.
Tom
"I have roughly a 1000 packages installed [some trivial, some large like Gimp]." ... What does installed apps have to do with code maintenance?
... What's your point? Does this means you compiled it? Does this means that NO ONE tests against different versions of GCC?
...
Not all Gentoo boxes are built the same. Yet I'm able to use the software on my box just fine...
"I have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what version of GCC they used to develop/test their software with."
You're saying from one version to the next things break all the time. I'm saying that's full of shit.
Sure there are bugs in 3.3, 3.4 etc series but the latest in each series is stable and can be used to build portable C programs.
I'm sure some of my programs were tested by people running 3.3.5 [or whatever is latest there], 3.4.4 or even 4.0.1
I personally use 3.4.4 for all my development and emerging. Things just seem to work.
Imagine that.
As for the comparison... my code is bignum math and crypto. It has NO system calls in it at all. So if it's slower it's one of
1. Services are prempting it [nope]
2. The OS doesn't schedule the same amount of time [nope]
3. The compiler produces different code [yup].
Tom
You do realize though that they are not efficient and produce toxic hazards for landfills right?
I'd rather see buildings covered with vegetation that produces oxygene, cools the atmosphere and enables [to use the bizspeak word] nature to co-exist then millions of pounds of uneartly solar cells...
If in the summer [and heck winter] you can cut your climatization power usage that too would offset grid power usage.
Just go research how much an AC compressor takes. They're killowatts for small homes... Think of what an office complex needs... Imagine replacing that with grass, trees, moss, etc. Now imagine doing that to the tens of thousands of office complexes on earth...
Get my point?
Let me put something forward to you.
I have roughly a 1000 packages installed [some trivial, some large like Gimp].
I have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what version of GCC they used to develop/test their software with.
As for comparing GCC to MSVC for optimization it was GCC on linux [2.6.7 I think] and MSVC 6.00 on WinXP. It's not really hard to see GCC winning given that it has way better schedulers, CSE, LCM, etc optimizers than MSVC.
MSVC is a faster compiler and probably takes less memory but GCC ends up producing better code in terms of size and speed tradeoffs.
Tom
Yeah I asked him over YM... he laughed at it. It's press afterall.
Tom
ABI changes are not really an issue in the long run with open source as you can just recompile.
... Just because you can't code properly doesn't mean others can't. Use the standards and avoid GNU extensions were possible.
... my software is used out of the box on platforms I've never seen. Can you say the same?
As for your code from 97 not working now. Shame on you. I have code [even with assembler blocks] that will buil with 2.95.2, 3.4.4 and 4.0.1
Also as another poster pointed out VS hasn't really changed that much fundamentally. It's optimizer is weak and it lacks many C99 features for C at least.
Whereas GNU CC is free, professional, high quality and portable... hmmm I wonder where the value is...
Tom
--
Depends on the scope of the project. Sure things like Firefox [re: not linux] are hard to add to because they are big ...
But i'd say Linux is a hell of a lot more extensible than windows.
Say I want to develop a new device [/dev/toms] for some reason. I have the Linux Kernel SOURCE CODE for free to look at. What do I get in the windows camp for free?
And they really have to learn to distinguish between the kernel [that is Linux] and distros. The kernel for the most part is very stable. Yes, the bleeding edge [e.g. 2.6.12.3 may not work well] versions are a tad buggy but the recent ones [2.6.12 for instance] works just fine on my AMD laptop, AMD64 dual core desktop and P4 Prescott desktop.
Three different architectures with different drives, graphics, etc [my 64 has SATA drives too and a PCI-X graphics card] but they all work out of the box with a trivial kernel configuration.
I can take the kernel and use it with Gentoo. In this distro I can add/remove programs with a simple emerge command. You think installshield is easy? How hard is
emerge firefox
or
emerge -C firefox
etc, etc, etc.
This is just more fud from a person who obviously doesn't use [or take the time to understand] how the technology actually works.
I guess that's his job, to spread FUD to sell Windows. Unfortunately for him people are waking up and are not FUCKING MORONS anymore.
Tom
Bah, he deserves some props once in a while.
;-)
He also hosts my website
Tom
Shhh no they're geniOSes. I mean never in a million years would anyone else figure that out.
I guess what they don't realize is that they take a wack of juice. I have one of those coolers and it draws roughly 60-70 Watts to cool a small area. Imagine an area 10 times larger [hint power requirried doesn't scale linearly].
The real "environmently friendly solution [for homes and offices] is to realize this simple fact. It's cooler underneath the grass and soil.
More trees and grass, cover your campus and your buildings. Let them absorb the sun and voila. Some companies and appartments do this already. But it isn't a wide spread idea unfortunately...
Tom
He was likely rewarded for his invention by getting a job, stability, money, maybe even a hooker, who knows.
... man I mean those are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!!!!
Point is, this is 30 years later. I'm sure your great grand dad did something useful for people today. We don't sit there and honour him now do we?
And frankly Ethernet is not that magical. It's a 12 volt serial line with some STOP/START, frame data, etc.
Wowser, nothing like say RS-232 or RS-485
Tom
USE...GLADE....
.C file and use batchfiles to build it...
Seriously.... VB is hard to write in a hex editor. What's your point?
Glade lets you DRAG AND DROP GTK+ controls onto a window.
The idea and this will shock you is that the core of your application shouldn't be written in the same project as your GUI!!!
If you write the workhorse of the project as a standalone library then you just glue a GUI to it you'll find porting [as required] easier but also working with the gui project easier on its own as the code is smaller...
Of course you're a windows programmer so you put all your code in one
Tom
No, by portable I mean portable.
You're just a skeptic little bitch is all.
What the real problem is Windows doesn't have real development tools for it. Which is why you don't use a crippled OS. Use a BSD or Linux distro instead.
Tom
um what the fuck do you think Motif, GTK+, OSS, etc... are all DOING [not just trying].
Again you're think like a lame windows user that you have to be tied directly to the OS.
Sure you can write an application using Linux framebuffers... the smarter way though is to use something like Motif or GTK+ which is PORTABLE.
3D graphics? GL.
Networking? BSD sockets.
Sound? kinda lacking, OSS or ALSA or perhaps SDL as a higher level API.
etc, etc, etc.
Tom
Exactly. It's not really an invention as a series of trivial algorithms glued together.
... mmm a wire.
... maybe in some form of an enveloppe... oh we should have a start sequence and stop sequence... oooh... and we could put a header on this message, no packet... better yet call it a frame.
...
... seriously.
Let's see, we need A to talk to B. We need a medium... mmm computers use electrons
Ok now we need to have a way of sending a message
Ok now we can send data but we can't tell who... let's put a MAC address in the frame.... now we can address the frame to something and also tell where it's coming from. This is amazing...
Oops, errors... we gotta do a CRC!!!
Now we gotta figure out how to avoid collisions, we'll used some sort of carrier detect... But then how do we retry? I know we'll randomize retries!
phew...
I mean sure not all of those ideas would be obvious at first and I'm sure what we call ethernet today was not his first attempt either. So give the man his due... oh wait that was THIRTY FUCKING YEARS AGO.
Get over it man...
Tom
Um how so? Before the move to MacOSBSDWHATEVER... let's see
...].
1. Mac has a gui, windows has a gui.
2. Mac has proprietary file system. ditto for windows.
3. Mac has single tasked crappy scheduler. Windows doesn't.
4. Mac has SINGLE USER LOGONS. So did windows
Do I need to continue?
What distinguishes a *nix based system is not only the networking and process privilege isolation (that neither mac/windows had until recently) but the fact there were multiple users.
windows is windows, mac is mac. *now* mac is based on BSD and Windows is based on a *nix* like kernel.
What's your point?
As for the comment about linux being based on 1968's technology. If it works so what? Do we need "radically new paradigms"? I'm not against making new OSes... I am against radical shifts just because you're using something that is old [and stable and well known and well established and
I mean he might as well bitch that automobiles are stilled based on the Model-T... we should have five wheels now, two engines for redundancy, a mini bar and autopilot!!!
What stupid 1920s technology we use...
Tom
Actually this is bs. The majority of us OSS folk are writing ***PORTABLE*** tools that work anywhere. This is why you see firefox on mac, win32, bsd, linux, beos, etc...
... and so on ...
This is why you see GCC on mac, win32, bsd, linux, beos, qnx, etc...
This is
Only lame arrogant windows developers think that "linux using folk only write for linux".
Heck some of the places my software has and is being used doesn't even have a proper OS [e.g. PS2 and Gamecube].
On topic again, as the "inventor of ethernet"? What the fuck does that mean? It's not that impressive. I mean it's useful but so is sliced bread and we don't honour that guys name either! He did his part to make the world better. Groovy. Now step aside and stop milking something you did nearly a decade BEFORE I WAS BORN.
Tom
Want less spam? Stop assuming emails are coming from humans who take the time to write them.
Hashcash proxy. Nuff said.
tom
Take responsibility? They did, they put a big M on the front cover [and prolly the back too].
What? Are they supposed to go out and say "our game sucks because it has violence, please buy it!"... Fuck you. The game is hella fun and a good way to pass some downtime.
I don't "love rockstar" but I also hate hypocritical kneejerk "concerned parents" who want to make hell for everyone else because they fear things they don't understand.
You know what? It's fun to drive 90mph down a dessert road and bump a car off the road. It's fun to hear the cartoon "splut" as you hit someone. It's fun to open fire on cartoony looking cars and make them explode. It's funny that cars explode when upside down. It's cool how much detail there is. It's cool how well the entire world works together in the game, characters seem to be alive, etc...
It's a good game with a lot of work put into not just the graphical bits [e.g. violence] but the AI, structures, etc...
Tom
Oooh, ooh this is where I point out how stupid your post is and we argue about it right? Yeah sure you flamebaitng troll.
It's protected speech, it's labeled mature. If you don't like it go fuck yourself.
They don't show any violence [that I recall] during the commercials and frankly if you give your children enough money to go out and buy stuff unsurpervised then them at home playing GTA is the LEAST OF YOUR WORRIES.
Kids could just as easily use the money for drugs or what not. If you're not surpervising your young children [16 yrs] then letting them play a game is the least of your worries...
Anyways, nice to see you with a super high ID and posting flamebait almost makes me question if you're here for legitimate dicussion.
Tom
Why not just bell curve everyones money so the people who got stupid rich off this lose and the people who are at the lower end [getting killed by the person with the +1000 sword] get a boost.
...
...
Or
or
why not just say who cares it's a video game.
Tom
Really? You think a lot of EIGHT YEAR OLDS post on slashdot?
... but come on that's a bit of a stretch.
Sure they act like it
Tom
Things become secure by fixing what is insecure in it.
The fact that you now know about its insecurity means that the system works.
Though I agree projects like firefox are way too large to get enough people in on it.
typing too quick for brain... stupid multiple jetlags...
Tom
The problem is the industry just follows the pack. Like doctors bitch about long hours? Why not just have shorter days [less stress] without as much pay?
Hell, why not finance med school with say a 10 yr contract? That way they end med school not broke, got a job for 10 years, don't work long hours, don't get super stressed out, do a better job, etc...
Must be because I'm some sort of fucking genious. I mean seriously, we'd rather pay them stupid amounts of money to work when they're exhausted and then put the stress of paying for med school on their heads.
When a doctor cuts me open to fix something I want the only thing on his mind is "don't cut something he'll miss". Not "can I make this months mortgage payment?"
Tom