Not like... say virus scanner writers right? [who probably write the viruses they detect...]
I say if your management is stupid enough to fall for the tricks without trusting you then they deserve what they get and you probably shouldn't have been working there in the first place.
"offshoring" only makes sense if the wages are competitive. Paying a foreigner 10 cents on the dollar is as competitive as sweat shops go...
Then what happens? You get more sweatshops making Nike clones...
Say MSFT pays some shop $10k to make windows 2005 [or whatever]. Cuz it's cheap and what not it makes sense to mr. rich CEO. However, what's to stop someone with $10k from then writing their own winders 2k5 which is just a cheaper knock off?
Also there are logistical problems with outsourcing. For example, when Nortel outsourced their tech support they got a 3x time delay in getting responses as their "benefit" of outsourcing.
It does make sense to outsource certain jobs [if you make cars do you want to make the tiny nuts and bolts?] but you have to pay competitively for those outsourced jobs or else you end up screwing yourself in the end.
I'll wait for the long run thank you. Rude generalizations are just as bad as good ones.
From my experience in Canada is that many "what we consider bright" foreigners are actually people who just memorize the heck out of shit and regurgitate it later. This is fine for school but sucks in the real world.
For example, I had a friend [who went onto Waterloo I think...] who would ace every comp.sci exam in high school. However, he was stuck every 3 mins on the lab work because he didn't know what he was doing.
Anyways, I wasn't trying to say all Indian programs suck. I'd say an american is equally able to develop quality software.
My point was near sighted business decisions are going to cripple the industry because people are stupid and greedy.
Hehehehe, same story at my college. It's a 3yr diploma program so it's not entirely bad but many courses are taught by people without a clue [e.g. trivial bugs, security flaws in their examples, etc].
I just finished a semester of how to setup a network [which got exploited by Blaster, and get this, the teacher didn't know how to prevent it!], how to write ER diagrams/SQL Queries, software engineering documents and business fundamentals...
Gotta say, college is fun [in the I want to die and every day of my life is the worst day of my life].
I see this as a "what I want" syndrome that is going to bite people in the ass in the long run.
First off you have the american side of it. The CEOs will ship the jobs off shore, americans will lose jobs and have to go on pogey. So yeah, the CEO makes a short-term profit but pays for it in taxation in the end.
Second you have the foreign side of it. They're willing to sell their time for a heck of a lot less than the americans [leading to the questionable quality issue which is another debate alltogether]. However, in the long run thy're just poising themselves to earn the least amount of money possible. [e.g. no long-term profit].
So really outsourcing is a nearsighted "fix".
However, there are several real concerns. Often software developers are paid way too much for what they produce. $70k/yr to produce buggy programs [re: name the last 10 windows games...] is excessive. Also this is partly americans own fault. Everyone and their brother is now a "computer scientist" [having finished their 3wk course at Devry or what not]. Now the CEOs are just pushing this farther by grabing rice farmers and what not and calling them computer scientists.
So in reality y'all are gonna taste your own medicine in the end!!!!
I imagine in the future we will be using...um...future things that are more futuristic than now. I forsee people using things that are futuristic. !!! I can tell the future I can.
First off, even if you put an Athlon 3200+ in a phone it's still a phone. You can't type at it and unless it has 99% voice recognition [for entering text] it's useless. Well actually more than that. Have you ever tried to read C source out loud?
I actually forsee a small market for these devices. I mean sure PDAs are trendy but they're not as popular as laptops or desktops. At my college way more people have laptops because while they're a bit bulkier they do have keyboards, guts and large monitors [my 14.1" laptop monitor is HUGE compared to a 2.9" or whatever the avg. PDA has] that make using the computer less than painful.
What will catch on are lighter laptops. If Compaq made my laptop in a "less than 7lbs" model I would be very very happy. However, I'm willing to carry it around [well it's not that heavy anyways] considering I get a nearly 100% sized keyboard, 14.1" screen, 768MB of ram, 60GB of disk, an Athlon-M 2400+ [barton!], 2USB, 1394, Ethernet, serial, parallel, PS/2, svideo, VGA ports, a floppy drive and a DVD-CDRW drive....
That's a bit more than in the avg 600$ PocketPC device...;-)
Hehehehe, I totally agree walls off the case is not ideal. When the box was in my room I had a 12" fan blowing on it all the time [that cooled it nicely... like idle at 30C].
The problem is the average ATX case is not designed with heat in mind. For instance, the CPU is right next to the power supply. So in my case [not metal case...] the heat from my Zen cooler pumps right out of the CPU into the wall of the power supply. Then it stagnates right there.
At least the air in the basement where I leave it is cool enough to be drawn into the case....
"You understand that just leaving the case off, does not solve cooling problems, right?"
Actually, yes it does. I have a Zen cooler [dual fan, neato core] heatsink and it draws a lot of heat away from the cpu. Problem is with the case walls on the heat stays inside the computer. Sure I could add more fans to the thing but taking the sides off is just as effective and doesn't cost anything.
I leave the thing in my basement [which is cool]. So overall my idling Barton 3000+ sits in the 40-45C range which isn't too bad.
If I put the case walls on I easily add 5-10C to the temp.
Um I call bullshit. While there are long waits in hospitals they don't turn people away. When I had an anxiety attack [never had one before, I didn't know what it was.... shut up!] they saw me in under an hour [took about 40 mins].
My friend just recently had some blood pressure problems. They saw him in two hours.
Just last year my mother had a cyst removed. Took only a month or so from diagnosis to surgery.
So really I call bullshit. No way she had a six month delay unless
a. She failed to show up for delays [they hate that]
b. Failed to provide accurate help [e.g. help the doctor diagnose it]
c. Required something rare [bone marrow, transplant, etc...]
But just to have a doctor look at it... that's usually under a week even with specialists...
"The French have benefitted twice in the past century from the US military"
I'm sorry. What? Oh yeah. The US liberated france. I forgot you take your history lessons from movies...
Last I checked Canada was in WWII since day 1 [well a bit afterwards but you know what I mean] Not three years into it.
"It's more accurately a case of "You have freedom of speech but I am not going to pay for you to print your newspaper"."
Oh but I thought the US was *donating* this money to rebuild Iraq. I mean afterall you guys are christ re-incarnate right?
As for the middle of your post... Other nations get involved [like Canada does] but usually with collaboration of the nations that have to live with the consequences! Sure it may not be "made for tv action" but it ensures that people actually manage to survive and have some quality of life.
Um last I checked Canada has not been at war since 1945. We don't *need* a huge military to defend ourselves because we don't have a war every 39 seconds.
We spend our money on other important things like health care, quebec, those health canada ads about smoking... um certainly not education though... [stupid high tuition schools].
First off, there is noting glorious about having a strong military. It just proves your society has yet to move on. Countries like Canada, France, etc don't have million man armies because we realize that we don't need them.
Second, it's still not upto the US who works in Iraq. Last time I checked freedom means free to choose. If the Iraqi people are free then they should be able to choose who they want.
That's like saying "you have freedom of speech but don't say things I don't want to hear".
Third, other nations did want to help Iraq. We just didn't want to start a war with them to achieve it. Last time I checked planes flew into american buildings so this seems like a good idea.
Fourth, the US has a long history of messing with nations [e.g. funding iraq to fight iran, funding taliban to fight russia] and having it turn on themselves. How about you guys stop fucking in foreign affairs and you will have less "terrorism" to worry about.
Fifth, suspect in their motives. Yeah not like the unquestionably objective Americans. Why did you fund Iraq, Taliban, etc, in the first place? Why did you lie about the WMD? Why didn't you wait for a peaceful solution to the problem?
I'm not saying American is shit and the world is super. I'm saying get off your high horses. America screws up left, right and center then changes the focus by slandering other nations.
Considering we have 1/10th the population and didn't agree with the war in the first place I'd say you guys ought to be thankful you got anything at all.
Also I wouldn't brag about spending so much money. Afterall, Canada is the one with the social heath care [which for all it's faults is very useful]. And it isn't as if your schools are rolling in the "this decade" textbooks, computers or curriculum [a problem Canada also has].
So having the US shell out billions upon billions of dollars to fund an illegitimate war isn't that impressive.
And what does the DMCA have todo with terrorism? Last time I checked terroism doesn't have to involve some sand jawas with a turban and an AK-47. As a cryptographer I find a government that wants to step in an make my legitimate work illegal... well "terrifying".
This is different though. Iraq is not your country. So if you pledge money because the US is "soooo" concerned with the well being of the Iraqi people you can't turn around and say "to go back to American companies".
Doesn't work that way. This is just a voter grab move by the US [e.g. look at all the jobs!].
And it isn't like you gave 100 and I want 1000. It should be like you gave 100, thanks. End of story. Sentence finished. Not you gave 100, now move in all your american contractors to own Iraq. Build your urban sprawl, mini-marts, etc, etc, etc.
Let the Iraqi people choose who they want to build their nation. If they want the US then great. If they don't then step aside and let the work be done.
Yeah too bad countries like Canada already pledged $230M US to the Iraqi effort, has already sent troops to Afghanistan, Somalia, [etc]. Oh yeah, the US is the *only* country doing things...
Man you guys are so full of yourselves its funny. I mean you guys can't possibly watch things like NBC or CNN and believe it? right?
As for terrorism and torture... last I checked the US was not exactly a good model of a free and democratic society. I mean Bush wasn't elected and all. And you can't argue that the DMCA, Patriot ACT [etc] are to help the mass citizens and not just cater to SIGs. Or the fact that the US has the largest stock pile of WMDs in the world, contributes the majority of global pollution [well Canada isn't much better...] and generally walks wherever it wants [spy plane in China].
While most Americans are friendly kind folk your politics and world appearance leave a lot to be desired.
Who are you to decide though? If you are sitting there willing to pay for reconstruction too bad. That's like a sore giver [e.g. give something to someone then want it back].
If the US didn't want to flip the bill [and why should they, they got their own troubles to worry about] they shouldn't have invaded a foreign country, deposed the leader and then pledge money to rebuild it.
I mean if the Iraqi government says no, we don't want US companies here, we want [say] Japanese companies, who are you to say otherwise?
How are they "free" if the US controls what goes on there?
Slashdot Mirror
Not like... say virus scanner writers right? [who probably write the viruses they detect...]
I say if your management is stupid enough to fall for the tricks without trusting you then they deserve what they get and you probably shouldn't have been working there in the first place.
Tom
Well aren't you long winded. Specially since none of this has todo with my original post.
So I made a grammatical mistake. Big fucking deal. Want I should follow you around the rest of your life and see if you make a mistake somewhere?
Tom
"offshoring" only makes sense if the wages are competitive. Paying a foreigner 10 cents on the dollar is as competitive as sweat shops go...
Then what happens? You get more sweatshops making Nike clones...
Say MSFT pays some shop $10k to make windows 2005 [or whatever]. Cuz it's cheap and what not it makes sense to mr. rich CEO. However, what's to stop someone with $10k from then writing their own winders 2k5 which is just a cheaper knock off?
Also there are logistical problems with outsourcing. For example, when Nortel outsourced their tech support they got a 3x time delay in getting responses as their "benefit" of outsourcing.
It does make sense to outsource certain jobs [if you make cars do you want to make the tiny nuts and bolts?] but you have to pay competitively for those outsourced jobs or else you end up screwing yourself in the end.
Tom
I'll wait for the long run thank you. Rude generalizations are just as bad as good ones.
From my experience in Canada is that many "what we consider bright" foreigners are actually people who just memorize the heck out of shit and regurgitate it later. This is fine for school but sucks in the real world.
For example, I had a friend [who went onto Waterloo I think...] who would ace every comp.sci exam in high school. However, he was stuck every 3 mins on the lab work because he didn't know what he was doing.
Anyways, I wasn't trying to say all Indian programs suck. I'd say an american is equally able to develop quality software.
My point was near sighted business decisions are going to cripple the industry because people are stupid and greedy.
Tom
Hehehehe, same story at my college. It's a 3yr diploma program so it's not entirely bad but many courses are taught by people without a clue [e.g. trivial bugs, security flaws in their examples, etc].
I just finished a semester of how to setup a network [which got exploited by Blaster, and get this, the teacher didn't know how to prevent it!], how to write ER diagrams/SQL Queries, software engineering documents and business fundamentals...
Gotta say, college is fun [in the I want to die and every day of my life is the worst day of my life].
Tom
I can guess two things from your reply.
1. You're american
2. You watch debates on TV and are not totally amazed at how stupid they are.
You take a long winded post of mine, chop it down to six words and comment on the tangental....
Dude... grow up.
Nash was right... nuff said.
I see this as a "what I want" syndrome that is going to bite people in the ass in the long run.
First off you have the american side of it. The CEOs will ship the jobs off shore, americans will lose jobs and have to go on pogey. So yeah, the CEO makes a short-term profit but pays for it in taxation in the end.
Second you have the foreign side of it. They're willing to sell their time for a heck of a lot less than the americans [leading to the questionable quality issue which is another debate alltogether]. However, in the long run thy're just poising themselves to earn the least amount of money possible. [e.g. no long-term profit].
So really outsourcing is a nearsighted "fix".
However, there are several real concerns. Often software developers are paid way too much for what they produce. $70k/yr to produce buggy programs [re: name the last 10 windows games...] is excessive. Also this is partly americans own fault. Everyone and their brother is now a "computer scientist" [having finished their 3wk course at Devry or what not]. Now the CEOs are just pushing this farther by grabing rice farmers and what not and calling them computer scientists.
So in reality y'all are gonna taste your own medicine in the end!!!!
MUAHAHAHAA
Tom
Someone will have to program the AI...
Tom
How the fuck was that insightful?
;-)
Ok mods how about this.
I imagine in the future we will be using...um...future things that are more futuristic than now. I forsee people using things that are futuristic. !!! I can tell the future I can.
First off, even if you put an Athlon 3200+ in a phone it's still a phone. You can't type at it and unless it has 99% voice recognition [for entering text] it's useless. Well actually more than that. Have you ever tried to read C source out loud?
I actually forsee a small market for these devices. I mean sure PDAs are trendy but they're not as popular as laptops or desktops. At my college way more people have laptops because while they're a bit bulkier they do have keyboards, guts and large monitors [my 14.1" laptop monitor is HUGE compared to a 2.9" or whatever the avg. PDA has] that make using the computer less than painful.
What will catch on are lighter laptops. If Compaq made my laptop in a "less than 7lbs" model I would be very very happy. However, I'm willing to carry it around [well it's not that heavy anyways] considering I get a nearly 100% sized keyboard, 14.1" screen, 768MB of ram, 60GB of disk, an Athlon-M 2400+ [barton!], 2USB, 1394, Ethernet, serial, parallel, PS/2, svideo, VGA ports, a floppy drive and a DVD-CDRW drive....
That's a bit more than in the avg 600$ PocketPC device...
Tom
Hehehehe, I totally agree walls off the case is not ideal. When the box was in my room I had a 12" fan blowing on it all the time [that cooled it nicely... like idle at 30C].
The problem is the average ATX case is not designed with heat in mind. For instance, the CPU is right next to the power supply. So in my case [not metal case...] the heat from my Zen cooler pumps right out of the CPU into the wall of the power supply. Then it stagnates right there.
At least the air in the basement where I leave it is cool enough to be drawn into the case....
Tom
"You understand that just leaving the case off, does not solve cooling problems, right?"
Actually, yes it does. I have a Zen cooler [dual fan, neato core] heatsink and it draws a lot of heat away from the cpu. Problem is with the case walls on the heat stays inside the computer. Sure I could add more fans to the thing but taking the sides off is just as effective and doesn't cost anything.
I leave the thing in my basement [which is cool]. So overall my idling Barton 3000+ sits in the 40-45C range which isn't too bad.
If I put the case walls on I easily add 5-10C to the temp.
Tom
shut the fuck up grammar Nazi.
Learn to grammorize your sentances!
Last I checked the US had a draft during WWII. How heroic is that?
So by your logic Americans were not heroic during WWII either.
Tom
Um I call bullshit. While there are long waits in hospitals they don't turn people away. When I had an anxiety attack [never had one before, I didn't know what it was.... shut up!] they saw me in under an hour [took about 40 mins].
My friend just recently had some blood pressure problems. They saw him in two hours.
Just last year my mother had a cyst removed. Took only a month or so from diagnosis to surgery.
So really I call bullshit. No way she had a six month delay unless
a. She failed to show up for delays [they hate that]
b. Failed to provide accurate help [e.g. help the doctor diagnose it]
c. Required something rare [bone marrow, transplant, etc...]
But just to have a doctor look at it... that's usually under a week even with specialists...
Tom
"for shit they are zealots about"
shit they are zealous about....[like grammor!]
"The French have benefitted twice in the past century from the US military"
I'm sorry. What? Oh yeah. The US liberated france. I forgot you take your history lessons from movies...
Last I checked Canada was in WWII since day 1 [well a bit afterwards but you know what I mean] Not three years into it.
"It's more accurately a case of "You have freedom of speech but I am not going to pay for you to print your newspaper"."
Oh but I thought the US was *donating* this money to rebuild Iraq. I mean afterall you guys are christ re-incarnate right?
As for the middle of your post... Other nations get involved [like Canada does] but usually with collaboration of the nations that have to live with the consequences! Sure it may not be "made for tv action" but it ensures that people actually manage to survive and have some quality of life.
Tom
Um last I checked Canada has not been at war since 1945. We don't *need* a huge military to defend ourselves because we don't have a war every 39 seconds.
We spend our money on other important things like health care, quebec, those health canada ads about smoking... um certainly not education though... [stupid high tuition schools].
Tom
First off, there is noting glorious about having a strong military. It just proves your society has yet to move on. Countries like Canada, France, etc don't have million man armies because we realize that we don't need them.
Second, it's still not upto the US who works in Iraq. Last time I checked freedom means free to choose. If the Iraqi people are free then they should be able to choose who they want.
That's like saying "you have freedom of speech but don't say things I don't want to hear".
Third, other nations did want to help Iraq. We just didn't want to start a war with them to achieve it. Last time I checked planes flew into american buildings so this seems like a good idea.
Fourth, the US has a long history of messing with nations [e.g. funding iraq to fight iran, funding taliban to fight russia] and having it turn on themselves. How about you guys stop fucking in foreign affairs and you will have less "terrorism" to worry about.
Fifth, suspect in their motives. Yeah not like the unquestionably objective Americans. Why did you fund Iraq, Taliban, etc, in the first place? Why did you lie about the WMD? Why didn't you wait for a peaceful solution to the problem?
I'm not saying American is shit and the world is super. I'm saying get off your high horses. America screws up left, right and center then changes the focus by slandering other nations.
Tom
Considering we have 1/10th the population and didn't agree with the war in the first place I'd say you guys ought to be thankful you got anything at all.
Also I wouldn't brag about spending so much money. Afterall, Canada is the one with the social heath care [which for all it's faults is very useful]. And it isn't as if your schools are rolling in the "this decade" textbooks, computers or curriculum [a problem Canada also has].
So having the US shell out billions upon billions of dollars to fund an illegitimate war isn't that impressive.
And what does the DMCA have todo with terrorism? Last time I checked terroism doesn't have to involve some sand jawas with a turban and an AK-47. As a cryptographer I find a government that wants to step in an make my legitimate work illegal... well "terrifying".
Tom
Obviously you've never seen my case. i don't have walls on it or anything. Let all the air through it ;-)
A mini cube box thingy probably doesn't come apart so easily.
Tom
One word: Heat.
Two words: Heat Problem.
Many words: Are you f'ing nuts me boy!
This is different though. Iraq is not your country. So if you pledge money because the US is "soooo" concerned with the well being of the Iraqi people you can't turn around and say "to go back to American companies".
Doesn't work that way. This is just a voter grab move by the US [e.g. look at all the jobs!].
And it isn't like you gave 100 and I want 1000. It should be like you gave 100, thanks. End of story. Sentence finished. Not you gave 100, now move in all your american contractors to own Iraq. Build your urban sprawl, mini-marts, etc, etc, etc.
Let the Iraqi people choose who they want to build their nation. If they want the US then great. If they don't then step aside and let the work be done.
Tom
"People deserve a democracy, and any step in that direction is a positive one."
It's funny you should say that... Oh right, the republicans were elected... sure....
Tom
Yeah too bad countries like Canada already pledged $230M US to the Iraqi effort, has already sent troops to Afghanistan, Somalia, [etc]. Oh yeah, the US is the *only* country doing things...
Man you guys are so full of yourselves its funny. I mean you guys can't possibly watch things like NBC or CNN and believe it? right?
As for terrorism and torture... last I checked the US was not exactly a good model of a free and democratic society. I mean Bush wasn't elected and all. And you can't argue that the DMCA, Patriot ACT [etc] are to help the mass citizens and not just cater to SIGs. Or the fact that the US has the largest stock pile of WMDs in the world, contributes the majority of global pollution [well Canada isn't much better...] and generally walks wherever it wants [spy plane in China].
While most Americans are friendly kind folk your politics and world appearance leave a lot to be desired.
Tom
Who are you to decide though? If you are sitting there willing to pay for reconstruction too bad. That's like a sore giver [e.g. give something to someone then want it back].
If the US didn't want to flip the bill [and why should they, they got their own troubles to worry about] they shouldn't have invaded a foreign country, deposed the leader and then pledge money to rebuild it.
I mean if the Iraqi government says no, we don't want US companies here, we want [say] Japanese companies, who are you to say otherwise?
How are they "free" if the US controls what goes on there?
Tom