I was talking about tech support in general not as finely applied in the thread.
The OP was talking about how "clueless" tech support people are.
My point is that while most are not the best technically inclined they are not all stupid. And even the well experienced ones can't solve all problems and often will suggest to reboot as the only viable option.
As to my quip about linux, I almost got a job [turns out the contract was running dry... or something like that] at convergys. They gave as an example of TOS the fact that some ISPs will not pay them to handle calls regarding linux for the sole fact that linux is too hard to setup and anyone using linux should/would know how to fix it themselves.
Says you. I routinely had my comp up for weeks at a time. May not sound like a lot but I also did alot with it. The only reason I did reboot [when I had the comp] was todo windows updates.
If you use the right tools [e.g. apache not IIS, not ICQ or AIM or YM or MSN] then you really shouldn't see problems.
I hate it when people make such stupid conclusions too.
"never got a virus". Whoopy. Neither have I and I've been an avid MSFT user since DOS 5.0 came out [I was 10 or so then].
The trick to not getting whacked by such things is to make sure you
a) don't run programs from everyone b) Use tools known to be written well c) Keep an eye on resource usage d) Do regular software updates when possible.
Even if you run Linux if you fail to follow those four basic rules you're swamped just the same.
Um, memory leaks are not a symptom of the OS really. Fatal leaks [e.g. permanent] are.
For example, if you load Moz and it leaks memory over the 69 days, that is hardly Windows fault. If you close the app and its still not freed back to the OS [and moz is fully killed] then thats windows fault.
To the best of my knowledge windows does a good job of freeing process resources. I used to code TCP applications [e.g. tons of threads, etc..] when I was new to it I didn't realize you needed to "close" the handles threads get. So in the task manager I'd see my program thread count grow and grow.
Needless to say when I killed the app all of the mem/handles were released back to the OS. [I have since fixed the bugs in my code...]
resetting the contents of ram is not the only thing [which is why hibernate mode doesn't alwayswork].
Not only do you have to make sure the RAM is intact [which is what this design solves???] but you have to make sure every single volatile register in every single piece of hardware is in the same state.
The latter part is something I don't see this addressing.
Here's a trick. Open up WinTV in winxp. Go full screen then hibernate. Try to resume...:-)
To be fair half of the time the problem is *not* something someone sitting 1000 miles away can help with.
Say you have lingering threads with open ports or something. How are you supposed to figure that out over the phone [and recall you have to tell some 65 yr old lady trying to write her grandson how todo this].
Most of the time people run stupid third-rate programs like Go!Zilla or Gator or dare I say anything based on linux! They screw up the system and there is not much you can do.
If on the other hand you said "My modem online light is off" and they retort "reboot your PC" you can be assured they are fairly clueless.
I have to pay for (1) simple access, then I have to pay for (2) metered usage, then I have to be bombarded with (3) advertisements to see anything of value -- which I am paying to (4) download, and I have to (5) register with the content provider to get the content and advertisements.
I agree fully. All you need is something like the "internet junkbuster proxy" and set it to block any domain that sends you ads. I routinely browse around without seeing many of the popup/under/over/left/right ads.
The only way to learn is through error though. There is no other way. You make a guess, back it up with precedence and experiment. There is absolutely no other way to learn new things.
I agree caution should be taken [based on knowledge of previous failures!] but blindly labeling a science as bad because god tells you so is just plain stupid.
As for the treatment. How do you know that the open heart surgery they perform on you will actually work in the long run? Maybe the technique as we know it is flawed and they are jepardizing the lifes of others?
All fields have the unknown element. Space travel for example, has alot of risk and tons of dangers but look at the advances we have gotten?
Cause he needs five boxes. One for each device. One box per feed. His devices don't have digital tuners.
He probably wasn't around for when cable boxes/converters were the only way to watch tv cause TV's were not cable ready.
My understanding was that each digital box would have its own subscription like Digital Cable works now. My friend has it and he pays per box.
I do see this point being an issue though because right now my cable co loves the idea of charging customers per outlet and enforcing it.
My cable co has that too but their techies don't enforce it. When I got my cable modem installed he saw we already had the cable split like 6 times [5 tvs plus my parents have their own modem]. The dude offered to replace some of the coax [for free] as well as stable the other cables upto the ceiling. in otherwords as long as you are paying for at least one connection they don't really care.
My big problem with all this digital crap is that they don't broadcast all the channels at once. You need to stream the channel if you want. With analogue all of the channels are broadcasted simultaneously. If they make digital cable analogous to the analogue setup then I would be all for it.
Lets see 50 channels all at once over analogue or one channel at a time over digital.
Why do people think digital is an *improvement*? I mean I have 5 devices capable of watching cable in my house. Had I switched to digital I would only be able to watch on one. [basically every member of my family has a set in their room].
Until they make it so you can watch on multiple sets from the same feed I can't reason why Digital cable would be better.
To top it off the analogue signal I get is decently clear.
So I have to say to all ya Digital pushers, "Fuck off!"
Someone always pays for scientific acheivements. We learn through ERRORS not "just knowing".
As for "effects later in life". Yeah, he's going to live about as normal life as anyone else probably. But you can't shy away from technology just because its new.
What should be cautioned are the motives. Like in the 50s/60s when they were testing all the pesticides just for profit. See to me they are throwing science out the window just to make a buck. Here in this case the goal is to cure a disease and save a life [even temporarily]. Sure the doctors will get press but I have to imagine their motivation is a succesful treatment which is in the interest of the boy in question.
I've read a few replies about "MS Forced updates are already bad enough".
WTF are they yamming about? I am running XP and I am *not* forced todo anything. A little popup will say "there are updates" but I can just as easily dismiss the box and go on my way.
Of course I choose todo the updates since I like it when MSFT fixes bugs...
I don't see it that way. For starters I'm not about to goto a public place to go and pirate music. Specially when I can do it from the comfort of my own house.
As for business I see little use there either. Most places I have seen that make cd's have their own set of computers with burners [mainly they burn prototypes by hand since its cheaper].
NEW machines installed in Adelaide convenience stores make the illegal copying of the latest CDs and computer software - which costs artists and software designers millions of dollars - as easy as buying a loaf of bread.
You can buy knifes at stores. That makes murder as easy as 1.2.3.
Duh. Why do people think they are original when they take item X and immediately point out it can be used for crime Y.
I mean if we sold bullets at corner stores than you'd read a news article that says something along the lines of "new store makes kids with guns a ready proposition." etc...
Did it ever occur to those people that business people put slide shows on CDs now? Maybe they will use the public burners [although I couldn't imagine so] for copying their own work!
The point is these lines of thinking have got to stop. Anything can be used to comit a crime and it isn't very intelligence to insight people to be against technology X for that reason.
If people dont want MS products they have to buy them anyway.
Really? Thats funny. When I bought my computer it didn't come with ANY OS installed at all. I didn't pay for MSFT Windows at the time.
I think what you are thinking of are those "boxed" family computers from Dell and Gateway. Well no shit they come with windows because the owners just want to plug the thing in and let their kid billy play games.
The whole problem is people are stupid. I mean I can go out and buy 100 PCs right now [given the money] that have zero affiliation with any given OS at all. The problem is you guys look at Dell and say "well they have to bundle MS Windows so its a monopoly" yet you completely ignore the fact that Dell is not the only distributor of computer equipment.
That's the point of a bundle though. If Windows only came with the core OS and gui it would suck. The whole reason why people want to use Windows [aside from the fact it works and doesn't suck like Linux] is that it comes bundled with tons of tools that people want to use.
And like you said you use Mozilla ontop of Windows so how unfair is it really? Just because people don't CHOOSE to look for alternatives doesn't mean they can't CHOOSE to look for them if they want. The truth is that not everyone cares about the alternatives because quite frankly the MS based tools serve their purpose.
I wonder if/. can go a week without posting a MS bashing story?
Pure capitalism doesn't need trademark laws. Nor patents. Pure competitive advantage based companies can survive and prosper without such ancient constructs!
Not really.
1. You invent product with name people will recall.
Agreed. Now most of you know I like MSFT Windows [and defend it often].
These 2wk IT classes and MCSE [and other certs] type of people are a real pain in the arse though. The problem is not really MSFT's since even if UNIX or Linux in general became the popular one you'd see 2wk IT classes for LCSE people [or whatever].
The solution if you are a CS student [even just at heart] really is to distance yourself from these people. Discourage people from taking the courses and naturally do preferential hiring for real CS types [even if they have less shinny resumes] over IT people.
IT people are not real computer scientists. They just want to learn enough to point and click and then think they are experts.
How you break a block cipher by brute force is exploiting the unicity distance [sp?], for example, the likelyhood that a single block decrypts to english under a random key is not amazingly low.
The probability that multiple blocks decrypt under the same random key to english is lower.
That is how you can break a block cipher using brute force.
The same is not true for an OTP. So seriously, go take a math class or two before coming back here.
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I was talking about tech support in general not as finely applied in the thread.
The OP was talking about how "clueless" tech support people are.
My point is that while most are not the best technically inclined they are not all stupid. And even the well experienced ones can't solve all problems and often will suggest to reboot as the only viable option.
As to my quip about linux, I almost got a job [turns out the contract was running dry... or something like that] at convergys. They gave as an example of TOS the fact that some ISPs will not pay them to handle calls regarding linux for the sole fact that linux is too hard to setup and anyone using linux should/would know how to fix it themselves.
Tom
Perhaps you missed the word "frequent", so I highlighted it for you.
Some servers only get a kernel upgrade once a year. And they get rebooted once a year.
More important than when you reboot is why.
If I reboot every week because of an update then thats reasonable.
If I reboot every day because the OS is a nightmare than that is not reasonable.
If you actually use windows you will find its not as unstable as most would have you believe.
Tom
Indeed the idea of a computer needing frequent reboots is very much a Windowsism.
Obviously you never update your kernel, and you're trying to pass as smart?
Tom
Windows degrades over time.
Says you. I routinely had my comp up for weeks at a time. May not sound like a lot but I also did alot with it. The only reason I did reboot [when I had the comp] was todo windows updates.
If you use the right tools [e.g. apache not IIS, not ICQ or AIM or YM or MSN] then you really shouldn't see problems.
I hate it when people make such stupid conclusions too.
"never got a virus". Whoopy. Neither have I and I've been an avid MSFT user since DOS 5.0 came out [I was 10 or so then].
The trick to not getting whacked by such things is to make sure you
a) don't run programs from everyone
b) Use tools known to be written well
c) Keep an eye on resource usage
d) Do regular software updates when possible.
Even if you run Linux if you fail to follow those four basic rules you're swamped just the same.
Tom
Um, memory leaks are not a symptom of the OS really. Fatal leaks [e.g. permanent] are.
For example, if you load Moz and it leaks memory over the 69 days, that is hardly Windows fault. If you close the app and its still not freed back to the OS [and moz is fully killed] then thats windows fault.
To the best of my knowledge windows does a good job of freeing process resources. I used to code TCP applications [e.g. tons of threads, etc..] when I was new to it I didn't realize you needed to "close" the handles threads get. So in the task manager I'd see my program thread count grow and grow.
Needless to say when I killed the app all of the mem/handles were released back to the OS. [I have since fixed the bugs in my code...]
Tom
resetting the contents of ram is not the only thing [which is why hibernate mode doesn't alwayswork].
:-)
Not only do you have to make sure the RAM is intact [which is what this design solves???] but you have to make sure every single volatile register in every single piece of hardware is in the same state.
The latter part is something I don't see this addressing.
Here's a trick. Open up WinTV in winxp. Go full screen then hibernate. Try to resume...
Tom
To be fair half of the time the problem is *not* something someone sitting 1000 miles away can help with.
Say you have lingering threads with open ports or something. How are you supposed to figure that out over the phone [and recall you have to tell some 65 yr old lady trying to write her grandson how todo this].
Most of the time people run stupid third-rate programs like Go!Zilla or Gator or dare I say anything based on linux! They screw up the system and there is not much you can do.
If on the other hand you said "My modem online light is off" and they retort "reboot your PC" you can be assured they are fairly clueless.
Tom
I have to pay for (1) simple access, then I have to pay for (2) metered usage, then I have to be bombarded with (3) advertisements to see anything of value -- which I am paying to (4) download, and I have to (5) register with the content provider to get the content and advertisements.
I agree fully. All you need is something like the "internet junkbuster proxy" and set it to block any domain that sends you ads. I routinely browse around without seeing many of the popup/under/over/left/right ads.
Tom
The only way to learn is through error though. There is no other way. You make a guess, back it up with precedence and experiment. There is absolutely no other way to learn new things.
I agree caution should be taken [based on knowledge of previous failures!] but blindly labeling a science as bad because god tells you so is just plain stupid.
As for the treatment. How do you know that the open heart surgery they perform on you will actually work in the long run? Maybe the technique as we know it is flawed and they are jepardizing the lifes of others?
All fields have the unknown element. Space travel for example, has alot of risk and tons of dangers but look at the advances we have gotten?
Tom
Cause he needs five boxes. One for each device. One box per feed. His devices don't have digital tuners.
He probably wasn't around for when cable boxes/converters were the only way to watch tv cause TV's were not cable ready.
My understanding was that each digital box would have its own subscription like Digital Cable works now. My friend has it and he pays per box.
I do see this point being an issue though because right now my cable co loves the idea of charging customers per outlet and enforcing it.
My cable co has that too but their techies don't enforce it. When I got my cable modem installed he saw we already had the cable split like 6 times [5 tvs plus my parents have their own modem]. The dude offered to replace some of the coax [for free] as well as stable the other cables upto the ceiling. in otherwords as long as you are paying for at least one connection they don't really care.
My big problem with all this digital crap is that they don't broadcast all the channels at once. You need to stream the channel if you want. With analogue all of the channels are broadcasted simultaneously. If they make digital cable analogous to the analogue setup then I would be all for it.
Tom
Lets see 50 channels all at once over analogue or one channel at a time over digital.
Why do people think digital is an *improvement*? I mean I have 5 devices capable of watching cable in my house. Had I switched to digital I would only be able to watch on one. [basically every member of my family has a set in their room].
Until they make it so you can watch on multiple sets from the same feed I can't reason why Digital cable would be better.
To top it off the analogue signal I get is decently clear.
So I have to say to all ya Digital pushers, "Fuck off!"
Tom
Tell that to Madamme Currie [sp?].
Someone always pays for scientific acheivements. We learn through ERRORS not "just knowing".
As for "effects later in life". Yeah, he's going to live about as normal life as anyone else probably. But you can't shy away from technology just because its new.
What should be cautioned are the motives. Like in the 50s/60s when they were testing all the pesticides just for profit. See to me they are throwing science out the window just to make a buck. Here in this case the goal is to cure a disease and save a life [even temporarily]. Sure the doctors will get press but I have to imagine their motivation is a succesful treatment which is in the interest of the boy in question.
Tom
1. I pay for my computer and all its parts.
2. I pay for my electricity [or I would if I wasn't living at home].
3. I pay for my net access.
Why exactly would I even bother putting up with ads on my computer? I mean sure, put an ad on your website, but inside my browser?
Or did I read it wrong?
Tom
I've read a few replies about "MS Forced updates are already bad enough".
WTF are they yamming about? I am running XP and I am *not* forced todo anything. A little popup will say "there are updates" but I can just as easily dismiss the box and go on my way.
Of course I choose todo the updates since I like it when MSFT fixes bugs...
Tom
I don't see it that way. For starters I'm not about to goto a public place to go and pirate music. Specially when I can do it from the comfort of my own house.
As for business I see little use there either. Most places I have seen that make cd's have their own set of computers with burners [mainly they burn prototypes by hand since its cheaper].
Tom
Haha, I got a good chuckle out of this one :-). Naturally though the cash-monkey behind the counter might wonder what you are doing....
Tom
NEW machines installed in Adelaide convenience stores make the illegal copying of the latest CDs and computer software - which costs artists and software designers millions of dollars - as easy as buying a loaf of bread.
You can buy knifes at stores. That makes murder as easy as 1.2.3.
Duh. Why do people think they are original when they take item X and immediately point out it can be used for crime Y.
I mean if we sold bullets at corner stores than you'd read a news article that says something along the lines of "new store makes kids with guns a ready proposition." etc...
Did it ever occur to those people that business people put slide shows on CDs now? Maybe they will use the public burners [although I couldn't imagine so] for copying their own work!
The point is these lines of thinking have got to stop. Anything can be used to comit a crime and it isn't very intelligence to insight people to be against technology X for that reason.
Tom
If people dont want MS products they have to buy them anyway.
Really? Thats funny. When I bought my computer it didn't come with ANY OS installed at all. I didn't pay for MSFT Windows at the time.
I think what you are thinking of are those "boxed" family computers from Dell and Gateway. Well no shit they come with windows because the owners just want to plug the thing in and let their kid billy play games.
The whole problem is people are stupid. I mean I can go out and buy 100 PCs right now [given the money] that have zero affiliation with any given OS at all. The problem is you guys look at Dell and say "well they have to bundle MS Windows so its a monopoly" yet you completely ignore the fact that Dell is not the only distributor of computer equipment.
Tom
He is married and has kids [or something like that]. Just FYI.
That's the point of a bundle though. If Windows only came with the core OS and gui it would suck. The whole reason why people want to use Windows [aside from the fact it works and doesn't suck like Linux] is that it comes bundled with tons of tools that people want to use.
/. can go a week without posting a MS bashing story?
And like you said you use Mozilla ontop of Windows so how unfair is it really? Just because people don't CHOOSE to look for alternatives doesn't mean they can't CHOOSE to look for them if they want. The truth is that not everyone cares about the alternatives because quite frankly the MS based tools serve their purpose.
I wonder if
Tom
Ok contrived example.
I meant if a consumer cannot use the name to distinguish the two.
Pure capitalism doesn't need trademark laws. Nor patents. Pure competitive advantage based companies can survive and prosper without such ancient constructs!
Not really.
1. You invent product with name people will recall.
2. I invent similar product with same name.
3. What happens now?
Tom
Agreed. Now most of you know I like MSFT Windows [and defend it often].
These 2wk IT classes and MCSE [and other certs] type of people are a real pain in the arse though. The problem is not really MSFT's since even if UNIX or Linux in general became the popular one you'd see 2wk IT classes for LCSE people [or whatever].
The solution if you are a CS student [even just at heart] really is to distance yourself from these people. Discourage people from taking the courses and naturally do preferential hiring for real CS types [even if they have less shinny resumes] over IT people.
IT people are not real computer scientists. They just want to learn enough to point and click and then think they are experts.
BOYCOTT I.T.!
Tom
I agree that there will be fewer source language candidates than raw candidates. That doesn't change the rest of my argument.
Tom
Again you are wrong.
How you break a block cipher by brute force is exploiting the unicity distance [sp?], for example, the likelyhood that a single block decrypts to english under a random key is not amazingly low.
The probability that multiple blocks decrypt under the same random key to english is lower.
That is how you can break a block cipher using brute force.
The same is not true for an OTP. So seriously, go take a math class or two before coming back here.
Tom