Does anyone else find it a little disconcerting that, "according to a recent Evans Data Corporation survey, developers who are migrating now from Visual Basic are moving to Java and C# in roughly equal numbers." What good is a few years head start and breathless hyperbole from the entire technology industry when Microsoft can simply create a new competitive product and quickly catch up?
You're looking at this the wrong way. Try this phrasing instead: "Microsoft is losing half of it's VB developers to Java, rather than having them move to C# [or VB.net]".
Also, remember that C#/CLR is little more than warmed-over Java/JVM with the Microsoft label - it's not as though it's actually a different product...other than not being cross platform that is.;-)
Java may well continue to be quite successful even though it has under-delivered, but that could mean little with C#,.NET, and whatever else comes out of Redmond. Does Java have enough momentum to thrive?
Will the 'whatever else comes out of Redmond' run on anything besides Windows? If not, Java will have a strong niche for the foreseeable future. Personally, I think Java and the JVM will outlive C# and the CLR. On the other hand, there is nothing preventing someone from coming out with a Java implementation for the CLR...
Java has the momentum to thrive, not just survive. Red Hat's recent offer to support an open-source implementation may prove to be another positive inflection point for Java....we'll see.
One thing that is very positive for Java - it is widely used in educational curricula, especially at the university level. That is a huge advantage over.Net.
Well, unless you count $2690 as substantially more than $3K, the guys at Xi would prove you wrong:
That isn't a workstation, it's a server. No AGP port, and no high performance graphics. I think Boxx is the only one offering Opteron workstations at this point...go check out it's prices.;-)
Apple has deliberately turned off processor features on the other platforms that would have led to their 'fastest in the world' claim being untrue. That's the point of the article. Cross-platform benchmarking IS hard, but deliberately crippling what you benchmark against in order to look better makes it seem that your software/hardware/whatever just isn't as good as what you're comparing it to...
Yes, it is very strange that they ran the SPEC benchmarks on their competitors machines instead of just using the already published results for those vendors. In particular, using gcc vs. the Intel compiler makes a huge difference. The whole point of SPEC is to let each vendor do the best optimization job possible, so that each system runs as fast as possible on the given tasks. Where it gets misleading (kind of like the video card benchmarks) is when vendors implement compiler 'optimizations' for specific SPEC benchmarks. Even given it's flaws, SPEC is the best game in town.
One thing that the author complained about was the testers turning off hyperthreading (or HYPEthreading as I prefer to call it). In fact, that was almost certainly the correct thing to do on the Xeon system. After all, it has two real CPUs, it has no need to simulate more at the cost of some overhead. It would be interesting to repeat the test with hyperthreading turned on to see the difference.
One thing going against the Mac was that it was running a 32-bit OS that's not yet fully optimized for the G5.
At any rate, the new Macs look to be a good value for the money. Even if they are essentially neck-to-neck with the Xeons, they are 64-bit and running a nicer OS than available for that system A dual processor Opteron 244 workstation will set you back substantially more than $3000 at this point. You are also stuck running Windows on it if you want a decently supported commercial OS.
Ah well, at least the world is more interesting than it was two days ago.:-)
No, I think what's holding back Swing support for GCJ is the fact that you actually have to IMPLEMENT all those AWT classes (Swing is built on top) using native GUI libraries.
The whole point of Swing was to eliminate native peers - all Swing needs is a 2D frame buffer. In theory, you could have a very broken AWT native peer implementation and Swing would be just fine.
Personally, I think SWT is a good alternative - and it already works with gcj.
The rest of your post is basically a non-sequitor.
Wake up, Rumplestilskin, the whole "wince" joke ceased being funny several years after WinCE was replaced by PocketPC, which was about six months after emoticons died their overdue death.
Just calling a spade a spade.:-P WinCE is still actively used in computer circles in preference to the "Microsoft Windows Powered Pocket PC" which seems to be the name of the "new" OS.
Anyhow, Microsoft is so 20th century...
By the way, I personally find emoticons convey clearly what is often not clear at all from the accompanying text...:-P
SPECfp and SPECint are based on real user applications. These benchmarks measure the performance of the processor, memory and compiler on the tested system. They are the most widely used benchmark suites for microprocessor performance.
Based on information supplied by IBM, a PPC 970 running at 1.8 GHz is estimated at:
SPECfp - 1051
SPECint - 937
These new PowerMacs should be very competitive with the fastest Intel boxes, and right in line with Opteron.
It's very interesting seeing Apple and AMD both outpace Intel with faster, more affordable 64-bit systems. I'm going to budget a new Mac within three months.
Even the often-slammed UltraSPARC III is a fp-rate monster (it just lags in the integer stuff).
UltarSPARC III got a high fprate by having the only compiler that was smart enough to run a loop in one of the benchmarks 'backwards', so the array striding occurred efficiently. If you look at the individual scores, you'll see one that stands out as an outlier.
Basically, US III is a fairly slow processor - despite any marketing hype from Sun.
The *really* big news is that a huge chunk of the geek-set here on Slashdot will soon have a really, really compelling alternative to any high-end PC workstation. If the IBM chip scales up fast, Apple is looking very well positioned to displace a few SGI and Sun machines in certain situations.
Also don't forget that these are 64-bit machines that can take up to 8 GB RAM. The only really compelling alternative are Opteron workstations, which 1) aren't available yet and 2) won't have a 64-bit desktop OS (with decent commercial application support) even when they're released in a few weeks. AMD64 Windows is months away, and will be Windows when it's released regardless.:-P
Apple is looking more interesting than ever... =)
I'm torn between the desktop and notebook products...unless a 970 based Powerbook is actually released as rumored.
The suit also adds illegal export issues stemming from the worldwide availability of open-source software. SCO claims IBM has breached its contract by making multiprocessor operating system technology available "for free distribution to anyone in the world," including residents of Cuba, Iran, Syria, North Korea and Libya, countries to which the United States controls exports.
Linux doesn't give those countries any capability they wouldn't have without Linux. I'm sure the black market works just fine in that regard...
It is an example of draconian and pointless export laws hurting innovation, though. Those laws have been around a long time.
This is a big win for Linux, but is making it mandatory going too far? It would seem wiser to support a solution that favors the best tool for the job, which may not always be an open source product.
I'd say Linux/Open Source (don't forget BSD;) is the best tool 80% of the time (or more) though.
Brazil might be willing to settle for a 'good enough' solution, while saving MILLIONS of dollars. Those savings really add up, year after year. Everyone touts the advantages of OSS for business, why not apply it to a whole country? Stable standards and software also increase value over time.
Linux vendors might benefit from this, in terms of support/update plans. We'll see...
Getting in a bit late...
on
Ageism in IT?
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· Score: 1
To this discussion that is...
However, I'm a 40+ software guy - and the going is tough right now, no doubt about it. I have several friends who've been out of work for many months.
Bleh, a down economy is the time to get entreprenurial anyhow...;-)
Hmm. You're one of those people to whom the dashboard of a 747 is "simple," aren't you.:)
"Daddy? How do I compile?"
*sigh* For the last time, Bob, M-L, M-X, C-M-K, "make", esc-esc-return...
ROFL. Well, emacs is something that can be learned in stages - I'd have him/her use the editor strictly for editing, with a handy command line nearby for "javac *.java" and "java Alife".
C-x C-f to open a file isn't really that complicated, nor is C-x C-s to save it. Other than that, emacs can be used as a fairly simple visual editor.:-)
Plus, if the kid really gets into it, he/she can learn Lisp!;-)
So you have your code for the code review, but if things get bad, you also have the button that ensures teeth gnashing is a common sound after you leave.
Other common sounds might be 1) scratching sounds as you write checks to your lawyer defending yourself in court and b) the click of the phone hanging up after you're told you weren't hired, due to a terrible reference.
Not to say your suggestions are bad, but when I was 10 or 11, the last thing on my mind was database tuning.
I wasn't advocating learning DB administration, just using a database as a structured datastore. Also note this is several years into the process, not at "10 or 11".
This is yet another "turn off" for the computing industry for me. I envisioned excitement and adventure (don't ask how). I've found DB's, focus group meetings, and data-migration.:: sigh::
There are far more exciting programming/computer opportunities than business applications. Some of it involves quite a bit of responsibility (safety critical embedded systems), but regular embedded systems might be a better fit for you. There is quite a bit of satisfaction in seeing your device work the first time - and no data migration meetings to be found.;-)
Heh. If I was handed NetBeans as the answer to my request to learn programming, I don't think I would've gotten to the point where I am today.
Note that NetBeans was the third environment I recommended, in sequence.
While I still dislike Java, especially for teaching to youngsters (to 18-year old CS1 students is another thing), I'd at least recommend something like BlueJ. Heck, even as a non-beginner, BlueJ is good for playing around with Java objects.
BlueJ might well be a good alternative, I've never used it.
[snip]
For a second, I thought your post was in jest, but I think it's more that you don't know any kids.
First off, I have a child - he's almost to the Logo point. We'll see how things go.;-)
While I'll admit to having played with some DOS SQL databases when I was young, most kids - especially bright kids- aren't interested in a structured course where they learn how to be a good warm body for the programming market... They have the rest of their life for that kind of bullshit, why raise them on it?
Not a structured course, just a one-on-one introduction to the concepts. That, coupled with an ability to read, should be sufficient.
As to 'warm body for the programming market' - that is the furthest thing from my mind. There would be no supplied projects - the kid would be free to pursue whatever it was interested in. SQL databases can also be used for fun things, like storing player data in a game.
Just because you find such topics stultifyingly boring doesn't mean everyone does.;-)
Java provides some nice solutions. I'd most likely start with one of the Logo implementations (this one has a nice tutorial on it's website). Once the child reached the point of handling a full programming language (probably 10 or 11 for a bright one), I'd introduce the JDK and emacs/jedit (in order to have the simplest possible environment). This would also be the time to begin teaching formal programming concepts like algorithms and data structures. I'm sure the child would pick up other languages (Python/Jython, etc.) beyond this point, and also one of the free IDEs like Eclipse or NetBeans.
By sticking to Java the child will tend to learn clean programming design and algorithms, rather than wild pointer debugging tricks (also the case with BASIC I might add). As an added bonus the child will be learning one of the most commercially viable languages, and one with a lnog lifetime ahead of it IMO. I'd also begin exposure to SQL (MySQL or Postgres) when you felt the child was up to the added complexity and workload. Up to this point the cost has been $0.
Once the child (now 14 or 15 I'm sure;) was proficient coding in Java, I'd suggest exploring C, assembler, drivers and low-level machine architecture. Within a couple of years any CS program in the country should be easy pickings.
If you run benchmarks, I don't care what benchmark, you are factoring in more than processor, and there is no benchmark gives real numbers for real world performance.
Wrong again. The best benchmarks are 'real world' applications (which SPEC CPU2000 consists of, BTW). I can bench systems for my particular app. In the case of gamers (for instance) every review has benchmarks showing actual results for real games. The clock speed of the processor doesn't matter, what matters is the number of frames per second.
Game performance reviews for Opteron should be interesting versus P4.;-)
This is true, if you want numbers you have to look at several things, one of them IS clockspeed.
No. If I want numbers, I run benchmarks and look at computing throughput (SPEC is one example).
The clockspeed is completely irrelevant to a buying decision. A buying decision will be made either on performance (SPEC etc.), price/performance, or perhaps power/noise dissipated given sufficient performance.
Slashdot Mirror
You're looking at this the wrong way. Try this phrasing instead: "Microsoft is losing half of it's VB developers to Java, rather than having them move to C# [or VB.net]".
Also, remember that C#/CLR is little more than warmed-over Java/JVM with the Microsoft label - it's not as though it's actually a different product...other than not being cross platform that is. ;-)
Java may well continue to be quite successful even though it has under-delivered, but that could mean little with C#, .NET, and whatever else comes out of Redmond. Does Java have enough momentum to thrive?
Will the 'whatever else comes out of Redmond' run on anything besides Windows? If not, Java will have a strong niche for the foreseeable future. Personally, I think Java and the JVM will outlive C# and the CLR. On the other hand, there is nothing preventing someone from coming out with a Java implementation for the CLR...
Java has the momentum to thrive, not just survive. Red Hat's recent offer to support an open-source implementation may prove to be another positive inflection point for Java....we'll see.
One thing that is very positive for Java - it is widely used in educational curricula, especially at the university level. That is a huge advantage over .Net.
That isn't a workstation, it's a server. No AGP port, and no high performance graphics. I think Boxx is the only one offering Opteron workstations at this point...go check out it's prices. ;-)
Yes, it is very strange that they ran the SPEC benchmarks on their competitors machines instead of just using the already published results for those vendors. In particular, using gcc vs. the Intel compiler makes a huge difference. The whole point of SPEC is to let each vendor do the best optimization job possible, so that each system runs as fast as possible on the given tasks. Where it gets misleading (kind of like the video card benchmarks) is when vendors implement compiler 'optimizations' for specific SPEC benchmarks. Even given it's flaws, SPEC is the best game in town.
One thing that the author complained about was the testers turning off hyperthreading (or HYPEthreading as I prefer to call it). In fact, that was almost certainly the correct thing to do on the Xeon system. After all, it has two real CPUs, it has no need to simulate more at the cost of some overhead. It would be interesting to repeat the test with hyperthreading turned on to see the difference.
One thing going against the Mac was that it was running a 32-bit OS that's not yet fully optimized for the G5.
Gone unnoticed in all this is the fact that Opteron is substantially faster than either, with a 2-processor system coming in at 25.0 CINT2000.
At any rate, the new Macs look to be a good value for the money. Even if they are essentially neck-to-neck with the Xeons, they are 64-bit and running a nicer OS than available for that system A dual processor Opteron 244 workstation will set you back substantially more than $3000 at this point. You are also stuck running Windows on it if you want a decently supported commercial OS.
Ah well, at least the world is more interesting than it was two days ago. :-)
The whole point of Swing was to eliminate native peers - all Swing needs is a 2D frame buffer. In theory, you could have a very broken AWT native peer implementation and Swing would be just fine.
Personally, I think SWT is a good alternative - and it already works with gcj.
The rest of your post is basically a non-sequitor.
Just calling a spade a spade. :-P WinCE is still actively used in computer circles in preference to the "Microsoft Windows Powered Pocket PC" which seems to be the name of the "new" OS.
Anyhow, Microsoft is so 20th century...
By the way, I personally find emoticons convey clearly what is often not clear at all from the accompanying text... :-P
After all, you're buying from a convicted criminal...
What makes you think this? Many of the x86 Photoshop filters use SSE/SSE2.
So again, lets see how REAL applications run on these machines and lets see the sticker price.
From an article at macbuyersguide.com:
SPECfp and SPECint are based on real user applications. These benchmarks measure the performance of the processor, memory and compiler on the tested system. They are the most widely used benchmark suites for microprocessor performance.
Based on information supplied by IBM, a PPC 970 running at 1.8 GHz is estimated at:
SPECfp - 1051
SPECint - 937
For comparison, 3.06GHz Pentium4 scores roughly:
SPECfp - 1077
SPECint - 1099
These new PowerMacs should be very competitive with the fastest Intel boxes, and right in line with Opteron.
It's very interesting seeing Apple and AMD both outpace Intel with faster, more affordable 64-bit systems. I'm going to budget a new Mac within three months.
UltarSPARC III got a high fprate by having the only compiler that was smart enough to run a loop in one of the benchmarks 'backwards', so the array striding occurred efficiently. If you look at the individual scores, you'll see one that stands out as an outlier.
Basically, US III is a fairly slow processor - despite any marketing hype from Sun.
Also don't forget that these are 64-bit machines that can take up to 8 GB RAM. The only really compelling alternative are Opteron workstations, which 1) aren't available yet and 2) won't have a 64-bit desktop OS (with decent commercial application support) even when they're released in a few weeks. AMD64 Windows is months away, and will be Windows when it's released regardless. :-P
Apple is looking more interesting than ever... =)
I'm torn between the desktop and notebook products...unless a 970 based Powerbook is actually released as rumored.
*raises pinky to corner of mouth*
We can buy SCO for $20 million dollars!
(Blatant ripoff of other, original posts...sorry couldn't resist.)
Actually, according to Yahoo, the current market cap is only $134 million - if one million+ Slashdotters went for $100 we'd be in business! ;-)
We could then donate the company to OSL so Linus can have his revenge... ;-)
Linux doesn't give those countries any capability they wouldn't have without Linux. I'm sure the black market works just fine in that regard...
It is an example of draconian and pointless export laws hurting innovation, though. Those laws have been around a long time.
I'd say Linux/Open Source (don't forget BSD;) is the best tool 80% of the time (or more) though.
Brazil might be willing to settle for a 'good enough' solution, while saving MILLIONS of dollars. Those savings really add up, year after year. Everyone touts the advantages of OSS for business, why not apply it to a whole country? Stable standards and software also increase value over time.
Linux vendors might benefit from this, in terms of support/update plans. We'll see...
However, I'm a 40+ software guy - and the going is tough right now, no doubt about it. I have several friends who've been out of work for many months.
Bleh, a down economy is the time to get entreprenurial anyhow... ;-)
Very perceptive. However, a more interesting issue is HOW MUCH we'll pollute and "destroy" (though some would say utilize;).
Clearly the human race needs to get a clue and stop overpopulating - while also working on getting off this rock.
Er, hydrogen can bloody well explode also...especially if mixed with pure oxygen. ;-)
You may also have heard of the Hydrogen Bomb - though granted that is a little different technology.
"Daddy? How do I compile?"
*sigh* For the last time, Bob, M-L, M-X, C-M-K, "make", esc-esc-return...
ROFL. Well, emacs is something that can be learned in stages - I'd have him/her use the editor strictly for editing, with a handy command line nearby for "javac *.java" and "java Alife".
C-x C-f to open a file isn't really that complicated, nor is C-x C-s to save it. Other than that, emacs can be used as a fairly simple visual editor. :-)
Plus, if the kid really gets into it, he/she can learn Lisp! ;-)
Other common sounds might be 1) scratching sounds as you write checks to your lawyer defending yourself in court and b) the click of the phone hanging up after you're told you weren't hired, due to a terrible reference.
Good luck!
Sure, like John Carmack, right? ;-)
Not to say your suggestions are bad, but when I was 10 or 11, the last thing on my mind was database tuning.
I wasn't advocating learning DB administration, just using a database as a structured datastore. Also note this is several years into the process, not at "10 or 11".
This is yet another "turn off" for the computing industry for me. I envisioned excitement and adventure (don't ask how). I've found DB's, focus group meetings, and data-migration. :: sigh ::
There are far more exciting programming/computer opportunities than business applications. Some of it involves quite a bit of responsibility (safety critical embedded systems), but regular embedded systems might be a better fit for you. There is quite a bit of satisfaction in seeing your device work the first time - and no data migration meetings to be found. ;-)
Note that NetBeans was the third environment I recommended, in sequence.
While I still dislike Java, especially for teaching to youngsters (to 18-year old CS1 students is another thing), I'd at least recommend something like BlueJ. Heck, even as a non-beginner, BlueJ is good for playing around with Java objects.
BlueJ might well be a good alternative, I've never used it.
[snip]
For a second, I thought your post was in jest, but I think it's more that you don't know any kids.
First off, I have a child - he's almost to the Logo point. We'll see how things go. ;-)
While I'll admit to having played with some DOS SQL databases when I was young, most kids - especially bright kids- aren't interested in a structured course where they learn how to be a good warm body for the programming market... They have the rest of their life for that kind of bullshit, why raise them on it?
Not a structured course, just a one-on-one introduction to the concepts. That, coupled with an ability to read, should be sufficient.
As to 'warm body for the programming market' - that is the furthest thing from my mind. There would be no supplied projects - the kid would be free to pursue whatever it was interested in. SQL databases can also be used for fun things, like storing player data in a game.
Just because you find such topics stultifyingly boring doesn't mean everyone does. ;-)
I don't know where you (or the others posting in this thread) have worked, but in most positions I've had there have been code reviews.
If your code isn't clear, much less well-commented, you get to fix it. If you just plain can't do it, you're out.
By sticking to Java the child will tend to learn clean programming design and algorithms, rather than wild pointer debugging tricks (also the case with BASIC I might add). As an added bonus the child will be learning one of the most commercially viable languages, and one with a lnog lifetime ahead of it IMO. I'd also begin exposure to SQL (MySQL or Postgres) when you felt the child was up to the added complexity and workload. Up to this point the cost has been $0.
Once the child (now 14 or 15 I'm sure;) was proficient coding in Java, I'd suggest exploring C, assembler, drivers and low-level machine architecture. Within a couple of years any CS program in the country should be easy pickings.
Unless AMD64 takes off, that is...
Wrong again. The best benchmarks are 'real world' applications (which SPEC CPU2000 consists of, BTW). I can bench systems for my particular app. In the case of gamers (for instance) every review has benchmarks showing actual results for real games. The clock speed of the processor doesn't matter, what matters is the number of frames per second.
Game performance reviews for Opteron should be interesting versus P4. ;-)
No. If I want numbers, I run benchmarks and look at computing throughput (SPEC is one example).
The clockspeed is completely irrelevant to a buying decision. A buying decision will be made either on performance (SPEC etc.), price/performance, or perhaps power/noise dissipated given sufficient performance.
Actually, my guess would be more like a 747 just before takeoff. That is at least one good thing about the iMacs.
I hope the new G5 towers don't sound that way.. ;-)