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Executing a Mass Departmental Exodus in the Workplace?
rerunn asks: "The recent story about the consultants from JBOSS walking out couldn't have had better timing. I'll save the drama and cut to the scenario: You and a few close co-workers make up the core grunts of 'the department'. The company relies heavily on your department for many services, some of which, other departments cannot provide. You like your job, it provides great satisfaction. Suddenly, the company realizes its in deep financial shit, and starts making cut backs. This impacts the department. You suddenly find yourself working 50-60 hour weeks, put on call with no compensation, given unreasonable amounts of work and generally treated like dirt. You get the feeling that the company is just going to take advantage of you no matter how and what happens. You get together with the rest of the department for a 'fsck this company' meeting and decide to walk out. Have you ever done this?? (We are so close!) What was the outcome?"
Six months of unemployment...
On a comedy special years ago, Bill Cosby quoted parents telling kids, "I brought you into this world, I can take you out, and I can make another one that looks just like you."
With today's job market I'm afraid the company will just replace you with people that are hungry for work.
I could be wrong, but I've always lived by the mantra "better safe, than sorry."
Mike
I would walk out with out a second thought, if you and your co workers where intelligent enough to get a job like that in the first place, you can get another one that does not treat you like shit.
Sounds great.
Why face the job market alone when you can face it with all your co-workers?
---- I've fallen, and I can't get up.
Must there be profanity on the front page? That is offensive in the extreme, and also unprofessional. Words like that should not be used, when perfectly acceptable alternatives (such as "the company discovered in was in dire straits financially") would both be more eloquent and professional?
...if you don't have a place to go, suck it up, find another job, THEN quit. You're crazy to walk out on your only opportunity these days.
Was getting together with a guy from the cold line (I was a dishwasher) and walking out of a Mexican restaurant after telling the manager we were going in search of the perfect taco...
Trouble making decisions? Just flip for it.
If the company really is in 'deep financial shit' then your action could be the final straw. And if you're as important as you say you are then your action will have a severe impact on the company at this difficult time. I guess you need to ask yourself what you feel is more important: the well-being of the company (and your source of employment) or your personal pride? Perhaps you ought to think about how lucky you are to even HAVE a job right now.
Same scenerio, but slightly different when I was about 17 at the shop I worked at. But it ended up that we all were outof work :(
You'd better have something lined up to move into, because you will have certainly burned bridges at your current employer. Plus, how will you spin this situation to prospective employers during the interview process?
Q: So, why did you leave your last position?
A: Things got rough, they treated us like dirt, I left.
This will raise doubts in the mind of the interviewer as to whether you're a person who can help an organization weather tough times...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
We haven't done that, yet, but our concern right now is like everyone else: unemployment. A few of us are thinking of putting together a business plan to start a new company, but that's going nowhere fast. We don't yet have that one great, unique, amazing software idea to start a company. So we're all stuck waiting it out until the market's better and we can move on or we finally come up with that great idea.
Developers: We can use your help.
Europa Endlos
I heard that somewhere.
I wouldn't do anything now, because the market sucks. But when you have another job lined up, hot poker up the butt to em.
slashdot troll = you make a compelling argument I do not like the implications of.
Is to collectively refuse to do any work, until you get fired or laid off.
You can't collect unemployment when you quit, you know.
Would you rather be out on your own looking for another job than continuing to turn up every day and take what is being dished out? Consider that despite the angry words of your colleagues, they may not step up when the crucial moment comes, and you alone may be the one leaving. Is that still okay?
Do you have savings to take 6 months with no income, or maybe shares you can sell to cover that period... because if you leave, it will be like leaving a relationship, you will be depressed, think and talk of nothing else for months, boring your friends and family until you get over it.
Is there any upward future for you in the company, ie, is continuing to work there acting as an investment for you that may pay off at a later time? If there is some hope of a career path, given how you are treated by people at that level, is that somewhere you want to be? Given the trajectory of the company, is there going to be a later time for this to pay off in?
Can you get out without dropping innocent colleagues in the shit?
That kind of thing is cool to talk about, but it is like starting a union. If someone in the department doesn't walk out, then you're out of work and you've handed them a promotion. So stick together. Everyone should hand in their resignation at the same time. Better impact that way, anyhow.
Information wants to be $1.98/lb.
Are you planning on walking out with your coworkers and forming a company of your own? Because, if you're not, there's no point in doing it in unison. Sure, you might wake someone at the company up, but more than likely they won't care, and even if they did, it's too late for you. Meanwhile, you're left holding the bag, as it were, with no job.
If the situation is that bad, you should do the normal route: look for a job while keeping yours. If/when you find another job, you quit. Your coworkers can all do the same. Things'll work out much better if you only bail when you have a parachute, and, no matter how bad your job is, it's better than no job at all.
If the company was in that bad of a position, do you think that they'd want to go through the process of firing their best workers, rehiring equally skilled workers, and then going through the time-consuming process of retraining them. The entire retraining time is money lost, and the company could go under.
A close friend of mine worked for a local ISP. The ISP got bought by a bigger company. The new management decided to replaces all unix mail-systems with MS Exchange.
...
The complete technical department from the "old" left the company within days.
Management will never learn
oh i don't know, say a million different outcomes for a million different people. most likely long bouts of unemployment. Just because you can program (or think you can) does not mean you can run a company. next stop: dose of reality.
You work for EDS?
Back during the big ol' bubble of the late nineties, I worked with a development team that came up with everything that end-users interacted with. Back then, we were doing just as you described- endless hours, little or no compensation... but we all still believed in the dream that was "we'll be millionaires soon enough". Thinking back, we were all in a perfect position to leave and start something on our own.
NDAs and other such things in your contract might not let you break off "en masse". That is something to be careful of. Make sure you don't have contractual limitations or obligations that could prevent you from making a clean break. Using your collective knowledge and contacts, I think you all have a pretty good shot at making it on your own.
And there is no looking back. The pay sucks, but the freedom is priceless (atleast until all my credit cards are max'd out). I wouldn't go back if my life depended on it.
Such a coordinated effort smells of a lawsuit from the company against the organizer(s) and possibly participants.
Look - if you are going to jump ship -GREAT! Only be a little smart and find another job before you jump.
I know it would give you great satisfaction to flip off the boss and walk as a group. Yet, the economic reality today says that is a really dumb idea. If you don't like your current position, at least have another place to land before you toss it.
Further, it is HIGHLY suggested that even though you don't like the place, that you don't burn bridges. What are the chances you are going to work with some of the managers/people above you in the future (answer from 25 years in the business - 100%) Leave gracefully and your career will do better in the long run.
Have you compiled your kernel today??
Given the current state of tech jobs (supply and demand), I think the company would laugh and hire a bunch more techies who would be more than willing to take your job. The way tech employees are treated is directly affected by the market. An employer will treat you as crappy as possible (ie, low pay, lots of overtime) because they can.
As much as I support capitalism, lets face it, the company doesn't exist to create happy employees. It exists to turn a profit. If keeping employees happy in order to keep them productive is necessary, the employer will do so. The problem, right now, is that a happy employee is an employed employee. It will get better (and then worse, and then better, and so on...)
[FromTheMorning]
I do know of a group that pulled it off very nicely, and they - - as well as the former (university)employer were, and are, happy. The spinoff group was able to take on consulting jobs while, at the same time, selling their services back to the university. The university was happy because they no longer had to offer benefits, do payroll, etc. After more than two years, this arrangement is still working out for everyone involved. Sorry, I can't give names, but the university in question is a top-rated one in the southeast, and the IT group in question primarily provided web and data management services.
It's only funny until someone gets hurt. Then, it's hilarious.
A long (10+ years) while ago, at my second job at a major fast food chain, we had this new manager who was a complete jerk. He had an abusive personality, and thought he was above us. So while he was in the walk in freezer, me and two other co-workers just left. What a rush! The next day I called work to see if we still had a job.
The other manager said, I see you are on the schedule, so see you at 5.
The results? The mean manager guy was nice to us and nothing bad happened. Work was much more reasonable and not so unpleasant. And note, this was at a fast food place, where people are easily replacable.
1: Walk out of job.
2: "Burn bridges" on way out.
3: Rent Office Space and watch several times.
4: Be happy and do what you enjoy without being a slave.
Trolling is a art,
discarded Pizza boxes are an inexpensive source of Cheese.
What are you going to suggest next, labor unions? Do you think that you and your buddies are entitled to be treated like human beings?
If you were a real man, you'd volunteer to work 80 hour weeks and come up with a plan to replace all of your colleagues with contract developers from India and Romania.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Move country. TO one where you have EMPLOYEE RIGHTS.
The company got bought and killed all our projects. Then they lied and said they weren't closing our office (the purchaser had another office 15 miles away.) 3 months later, they announced they were closing our office.
Pretty much our entire department quit, but we didn't decide to do it as a group. Everyone just found other jobs. The only ones left were a DBA workaholic and an immigrant woman who spent most of her time using AOL over the company internet.
1) Bad economy
2) Surplus domestic Labor
3) Outsourcing
4) Guest workers
You're a commodity now, buddy.
PHB wins again.
Vote Bush !!!
Had this happen not too long ago. Simple We walked out & formed our own company. The old employer realized that they could not stay afloat without us and contracted us do do the same job as before through our new company. The results - Limited work hours (read 40-50 hours/week instead of the insane bull of 70 to 80), More money (even after we pay taxes, FICA, etc.), our own company (we hold equal shares), and more contracts from other places that needed the same kind of service. The down side - we where living in VERY thin budget for ab out 3 months while it all got setup and settled down.
Gato
given unreasonable amounts of work
Posting on Slashdot is work?
Social Engineering Expert: Because there is no patch for stupidity.
now i read slashdot all day.
this sig steers like a cow. and i can prove it
I suppose that it depends on whether you're walking out for good, or just as a work stoppage to show them you're important. I'll assume from the title, you're talking the former.
The problem with the latter is that if the company really is in trouble, you'll be putting the nails in its coffin.
In this job market, I would personally not be too excited about the prospect of a job hunt. I've got friends who have been actively looking for over 6 months - it's kinda rough.
Another thing to consider is that some might just decide to let you all walk, and feign some form of loyalty to the company... it's a win-win for them. If the company survives, their "loyalty" will be rewarded, and if it crashes and burns, they will be eligible to collect unemployment while those who quit will not.
(just some random thoughts)
The Digital Sorceress
The grass is always greener.... Everyone is expendable.
In this life you are an Employer, employee or unemployed. Pick one and stop bitching
Why should you organize yourselves just to quit. A better solution is to quietly agree to stop working so hard. Perhaps you could slowly start leaving earlier and/or coming later until you get back to 40 hrs/week.
Just a thought..
nohup rm -rf ~/. >& zen &
Seriously, post here when you're done posing. My bags have been packed and ready to go for nearly five months. Airfare's pretty good right about now, so I'm psyched...
Listen, with so many geeks like us out of work, some of us having been looking for 2 years now, walking out is a BAD thing. If you don't have another job lined up already, you might as well suck it up. if not, I am looking for work, as are others.
"My ship came in, but was bombed by terrorists in port and sank." - Me
Most companies do not care about the workers. Anyone can be replaced. You work and get paid. If you do not like, deal with it or move on. Your group mentailty is interesting. All it will lead to is acting as a group and getting someone that really does not want to lose their income out of work. ;) Where do you work? I know 3 people hungry for a paycheck.
Here is a better approach: Tell your employer that you are unhappy and will be forced to find other employment if the working conditions do not improve... Problem with this is, in todays economic situation someone will come and do your job better and cheaper.
My father is a 'big wig' in HR. We've seen many a strikes in the past.
Dealing with a union is nice, cause its a one-on-one arguement and you can get things moving that way.
But if everyone leaves in your situation, they need to know why you left, and who to talk to make things right.
Another point, during strikes, about 25% of the time, the people were simply replaced.
You are talking about a poor IT economy. Lots of unemployeed geeks that just want a job, even if its 50-60 hour weeks (as long as you can put food on the table).
The bottom line? Don't even think about doing this unless you are prepared not to come back.
You're better off just doing the work, and talking to management about compensation.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Does you team have skills that you can make money out of if you stick together. Does you team provide a unique service that any other company would want? I suggest you find out before leaving. If the answer is no then you just as good by yourself. If the company is in the shit you say it is they are unlikely to turn around and try and make your life better just to keep you. Good management would, but if the company is that fucked then I'm guessing the management sucks. I would alway recommend trying to find a job before quiting.
----
What you're describing is a strike. If you do it right (start organizing the shop, aka unionize) your employer can't legally retaliate. Organizing for a union is also a pretty good way to get the Company's attention; most employers would much rather head off unionization by treating you well than have you organize and then force them to treat you well anyway.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
In the current job market where I live, and the state of my personal network, it would be economic suicide. I might be able to get a new position at Radio Shack but not much more.
However, at my current job, there are only three programmers. All of us are deeply dissatisfied. If we all left, as a group, or because we each decided Radio Shack and Circuit City beats what we are doing now, the company would be in a world of hurt.
Offering services as a group looks more businesslike than offering services solo. It gives potential customers a better feeling. And if it didn't work, we could go through night clerk training at 7-11 together!
Sounds to me like what you have in mind will do some of their cutbacks for them, starting with you... Just search for a better job and leave. If there are no better jobs, re-evaluate your strategy.
-- Fratz, human
I just signed a contract saying that I wouldn't get together with others in the company and quit. If a bunch of you quit at once and the company can prove that you guys talked to each other about quiting it can do such things as, keep your last pay-check, sue you for damages, etc. I hope you didn't use your company email.
I have never understood why so many IT employees are afraid of forming a Union. There are limitations, like not geting as big of a raise during boom times. But you have more control over overtime, and standard set raises even during slow times. Is it just my percention of IT people being anti union or is it me?
probably this doesn't apply in your case but i think it is a good idea to double-check wheter you and your departement are really that important for the company or if the company just wants you to think you are important to make you work even harder (some form of motivation).
i used to work for a small software company and me and a few of my coworkers (basically half of the development departement) decided that it was time to move on. it was really hard to quit as the boss made promises and tried to persuade each one of us to stay telling us how important we were. well, eventually we all quit and quickly found new jobs and afaik all of us are happy with the new jobs - and guess what? the old company still exists and is better than ever, even during this economic crisis.
so, at least from my point of view the bottom line here is: if you feel it is time to move on, move on. this is your life and you have to take care of it, not your company. and it is not that unlikely that both sides will profit from that.
time is a funny concept
A number of years ago, I was working at a really innovative company. The technical chalenges were great etc... However, I and my fellow engineers began to realize that our immediate manager was a jerk (made false statements to management, political, concerned more with his image than the product).
One of us talked with the manager about these perceived shortcomings, and he reacted _very_ defensively and hostile. We then lost confidence we could improve his management style.
Two of our team quit and returned to their former company.
The rest of us were considering doing the same, but we liked the company. Instead of quitting, we went to our department head. We explained our problem, and why our peers had quit. We said, either the lying fellow goes or we go.
Two weeks later we had a new manager and were from then on as happy as clams.
This was a 'pre dot com boom' time, but I would do the same thing now if the problem reoccured. If your team is _really_ valuable, then the company will do what is necessary to keep you happy. If your team isn't that valuable, improve your skills and contribution until it is valuable.
Try to form a union or join a union. The mere threat of unionizing might help. (Or quicken the pace of outsourcing your whole dept)
Would you like to try to convince a judge and jury that these 'lazy' workers were fired because they refused to work unpaid overtime? Didn't think so.
--Dan
But don't go before getting another job.
Don't bother about people putting moral pressure on you, as I've seen in the postings before. That's quite unreasonable for two reasons.
First, if the company goes bankrupt, you'll need another job anyway, so the sooner you start looking, the better.
Second, it's not your responsability, but management's. You cannot be blamed for bringing the company to the point where it is now, so don't feel guilty about the consequences of your actions. Furthermore, somebody else fired you co-workers, and that should make you responsible? No.
There is another reasons why you might walk: it gives better job security to your current co-workers. The company will need them more than ever and will save a few bucks on your salary.
Good luck to you and the people in your company.
Good point TopShelf.
Combined with other people's comments that "You are replaceable"
You and your team might as well critique each other's resumes and start applying for jobs.
If you are walking out, its because you don't want to come back- not because you want them to treat you with respect. If you want to be treated with respect, ASK that you be treated with respect. If the response is a lot of Management BS (hopeful language but nothing concrete) you know that they aren't going to do anything about it. So send those resumes, line up a better jorb (homestar runner typo!) and then LEAVE.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
A group of us at my company just did this. It has had its problems. I haven't gotten my last paycheck because, just as we all believed, the company couldn't survive without us. The second effect is that I am now emotionally and economically linked to a group of people who, while not the enemy, I am growing sick and tired of seeing every day.
The biggest regret I have is an accomplishment that I would never put on a resume or mention in a job interview: I put a dying company out of its misery by being part of a staged walkout. I mean who would walk to talk about that at your next job? "If the company is in trouble, I the man to kill it dead."
My advice: don't do it. The thing you are suppose to do is get your work done and go home at 5:00pm. If they can't handle this then you will be fired which, believe it or not, will make you feel better than walkout in lockstep.
Find another job. Then leave. Convince your colleagues to do the same.
Solidarity is all well and good, but at the end of the day, the only reason any of you are working for this company is to get a paycheck at the end of the day. You don't actually owe each other anything.
If the company suffers (as it will after a mass wlakout) it doesn't help you. It harms them, with ne benefit to you at all, and the loss of your financial stability. It doesn't matter if they learn their lesson. If they improve, you don;t work there any more.
Admittedly, the other people will suffer even more through having to do your job if you walk out, but that will be short term. They can also find a new job. You can help each other out if you want. They can stiull choose to leave.
Most people will say they will, but when it actually comes to put words into actions people get all selfish , think about mortgages kids commitments etc and don't do it.
what you learn about life is everyone is full of shit and you can count on that, not them
I worked for a small ISP a few years ago and the same thing happend. They made everyone start working overtime and then sprang it on thurday (day before payday) that they were not going to be able to make payroll and that everyone would have to take a pay cut. Everyone went to lunch and stayed at the local coffee house for three hours at which point everyone was called and paged to let everyone know that they had "found the money to make payroll".
"Sex is a very natural and wholsome thing, but only if it isn't done right." Welcome To Paradox
... we were a three-person team in a department that was soley responsible for several mission critical systems at a major company.
Short version.. they stuffed us around with our contract, (not seriously, just a power-play) and after many, many discussions we walked out.
They called us at the golf course a few hours later, and we were back at work the next day. We worked for them for another few years and all was well. Our company expanded and contracted in synch. with the dot com boom (including the ultimate implosion and death phase sadly).
Would I walk out in todays economy? Nope. I'll still walk away from bad business, but I won't walk out on a secure contract unless I have another alternative.
You are so reading the wrong website if you want to avoid profanity.
In the same vein, this is so the wrong website to be asking for "professionalism."
~,^
The biggest obstacle to you walking out and forming a company with your colleges would be the terms of your contract. Every employee contract I have ever seen contains a clause that states you are not allowed to temp other employs to leave and join you at a new job. Mass resignation is legal, its just a problem if you all want to set up a new firm doing what ever it was you where doing before. Normally you need to wait about six months before you could form the company, you could not directly target customers you where introduced to while at your previous company and you would be best advised to seek legal conceal about the best way to do it.
Also depends a lot on where you are in the world.
Be aware of the risks of starting a company in your spare time
Too many employer/employee relationships lack trust. It probably can't be helped if you work in a huge company that your direct superior has no interest in you.
I don't get it. Why would you base your livelihood on people you wouldn't trust to take care of a pet, or your car, or to keep a secret? When you work for strangers, or even people who hate you, you're bound to come into situations where you have 60+ hour work weeks, feel unappreciated, and believe that your only choice is an all-or-nothing walk-out.
Maybe I'm just being naive, but I hope my employees trust me enough to think I'm giving them a fair deal (and I hope they told me the truth when I hired them under such arrangements), and if they don't like it, I also hope that they'll come talk to me about it.
I'm not saying that you're being unreasonable, perhaps your employers are genuine assholes. I just can't fathom a relationship getting to such a point. In prior jobs, the second something went wrong and looked as if it was not going to be reconciled, I would quit immediately.
Good luck.
Nuff Said. Hey suck it up and get back to work! Stupid!
David Vasta iSeries(AS/400) Admin & Junkie
oh shut up chacham! ;)
(or should I say "please close your mouth, chacham!")
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Given this is on Slashdot I'm guessing we're talking IT departments here. So instead of walking out, take advantage of your position. Use the computers to set up a website that advertises your department staff to other companies. Then, once you've lined up jobs at competitors, you can leave en masse. Don't forget that the best form of revenge before leaving is always to do a mass install of Kazaa on the whole corporate net and fill up the computers with Metallica and Dr Dre rips, then send an anonymous complaint to the RIAA.
Look, I dont much care for unions, but if enough of you feel the way you do, you should form/join one. Of course doing so will probably be the last nail in the coffin for your company, but if you do form a union, at least you'll have certain legal rights.
If you just walk out, the company will just replace you. Sure, they'll be hurtin' in some areas for about a month, but then they'll hire some unemployed slashdotters for peanuts and get back to business. You'll make your point better if the s**t you throw at them is legally protected.
Whatever you do, make sure you can live with the consequences.
Notwithstanding the comments above, unions suck. Union dues, misuse of said dues for politics, being TOLD that you have to go on strike... blah!
The question is: where does each of you figure going when (or if) you do leave? If each of you already knows, that's fine. :) ... but what might actually happen is that the management hires some Joes and Janes off the street, who have re-invent many many wheels, but perhaps by doing just that get by just fine. Question: have you accounted for that?
If it's just a ploy, however, it might backfire.
But above all: if some people do leave, it will be a boon for the people left behind: they (the department) will have the full attention of the management and "instant VIP status". The best position for you is if you're the only one left over of course: you get to rebuild the department, and more or less dictate the terms
One more thing: people in general (I know I do) tend to over-estimate their worth *in a particular position*. I.e.: you may know the ins and outs of whatever it is you do intimately, and figure everything would crumble if you / your department upped and left
In the end, walking out is cool (especially if the boss is French like @ JBoss (kidding! kidding!)), but finding a solution is ultimately more satisfying.
yes, we have no bananas
Wasn't there a whole development team, including coders, QA testers, admins and managers for sale on EBay a few years ago? Initial asking price something like everyone's base salary + hiring bonus?
I always wondered whether that was for real.
It hasn't happened so much in the recent economic climate, but up to a few years ago, one often heard of about whole teams in investment banks or software companies switching quite readily.
I suppose it depends on whether you can find someone with budget and a need. Or you can just spin off your own consultancy. My advice, without knowing more specifics, would be to hang around and collect paychecks for as long as you can (do the work, but don't kill yourself) while very actively exploring your options.
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
There was this one horrible meeting.... Everyone walked out of it thinking, "Okay, that's it, any chance this was going to stay a good place to work is gone." (It was something like a 2 - 3 p.m. meeting. We didn't go back to our desks, we all went to the nearest bar.)
... in retrospect, that might have been exactly the intended result of that awful meeting.
I knew of a consulting company that wanted to expand into roughly our area, and I tried to put something together. ("You want to be here. I knew a few dozen really good people here. Let's talk.") We had exactly the right technical experience. We completely lacked the domain experience needed for the potential customers being targeted in our area. Oh, well.
Within two months, thirty percent of us were gone. The first wave moved within the company; the second wave went to a sibling company in the area; the third wave went to startups or created their own consulting companies. People tended to cluster together, a bit, but there was no mass exodus.
And the scary thing is
Good luck!
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
You need to be real careful about this.
Everyone in the group will contribute their particular grievance until the sum, to a single individual, seems like overwhelming evidence of company management being incompetent, callous, petty, vindictive and just so damned malevolent.
Well, in reality, they're not that malevolent, anymore than villains in real life are that malevolent.
The groups helps to build a story. And it is good to share.
But don't get caught up in the herd mentality, because the mob will rampage for less reason than a thoughtful individual. And, even if the individuals in your department are, by and large, good folk, the conglomeration of your grievances will goad you into doing things you'll regret later.
Act rationally, calmly, professionally, thoughtfully (of everyone), and deliberately consider your actions, making allowance for the fact that you still do not have (nor will ever have) the complete, uncolored truth.
If you leave, it should be on professional and agreeable terms.
Some particularly aggreived and emotional members of your group will want management to "get what's coming to them" by having a valuable department leave en masse, telling them off, and basically burning bridges.
As a professional, you know better than to burn bridges behind you.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Just start claiming company property for "compensation" cuz you'll be at the bottom of the list when bankruptcy time comes.
The first time was during the early 90's and everyone who walked out moved right in to a better position almost immediately.
OTOH, I saw it another group try it again about two years ago... I think some of those guys are still looking for jobs...
In todays economy something like this is the equivalent of playing russian roulette with 5 bullets in the six-shooter.
-- If it weren't for the voices in my head, I'd go insane from loneliness. -Me, Myself and I
but hear me out.
Wages are at thier lowest rate in five years. Unemployment is at it's highest since god knows when. It now takes 5 to 8 months to find a job in the current market.
Oh, by the way, one word for you...India (and if I haveto talk to one more motherfucker that I amslamminghome a 100 bucks an hour for and cannot understand I MIGHT WALK...to India...and hang a cows head overtop the call center door).
Deflation, plus lower wages, plus outsourceing = shit for you if you do. If you do do it, please respond to slashdot as I am sure alot of us would like to hear about something like this and if it works.
But my gut says no, and paranoid side says that they juts be TRYING to getyou quite, sell the IP to the highest bidder and float on down in thier golden parachutes.
WAR PEACE!!!
IMNAL, but I don't think so. Workers are still allowed to act freely and collectively in this country. (Sherman or Stimson anti-trust law, I think)
Actions similar to what your considering can be an effective means of leveraging respect from employers. However, unless you have the organizational structure in place _before_ hand, what your contemplating will result in you (and some of your coworkers) losing your jobs and the company having a few rocky months.
The scenario your suggesting is trying to 'collectively bargain' with the company when you only have a 'collective' of one department.
Call up a CWA (communication workers of America) local in your area, organize your department and as many of the other company employees as you can to join the union. Take 6 months to build the organization and plan a collective action. This way you'll have support in other departments, and union support externally.
And it sucked.
I was hired to manage the composition department for a print shop. I didn't know it when I was hired, but the department felt one of their own should have got the job. On my second day, the entire 1st shift (15 typesetters & proofers) staged a walkout. They marched into my boss's office while I was in meeting with him and announced they'd be back the next day and took a hike.
He (my boss) fired them all, even though I begged him not to. I canabalized the 2nd & 3rd shifts to fill the day shift and hired replacements, but a LOT of talent and experience went out the door and the company suffered for months because of it.
I would have liked a chance to win them over but didn't get it. In this instance, everyone was wrong and everyone was a loser. I hope I never am in that situation again on either side of the fence.
The entire XP team walked out, saying "This code isn't gonna get good anytime next 10 years?"
The entire IIS team walked out, saying "We can't touch apache in the next 5 years"
The entire Hailstorm team walked out "No one's gonna buy this!"
Sounds like all of the above happened - prolly explains why we get the same old code with new names.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
IF youre all together on this, then simply work a fair ammount. If NO ONE will work more than 40 hours uncompensated, what are they going to do? Well, try to fire one of you to set an example comes to mind, but if all of you have you resignations printed up and ready to hand in the moment they do that, you can have some fun with them.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Sounds like you and your co-workers have started a union. So do what unions do. Stick together and bargain collectively. Walking out and calling it quits won't get anyone what they want. But working to "rule" would probably help you and your colleagues a lot. The company cannot fire all of you for doing your job well; but without free overtime and on-call BS.
I recommend that you and your colleagues keep your job but work as you think your job should be done.
If they fire you, then you can sue the pants off the company. But if only one employee does it, its not very effective. You've got to stick up for each other.
I might recommend that you and your coworkers save a few dollars for a rainy day too.
This was/is a huge government system, and will not go into names.
The new system release was suppose to be released in mid-late 2000, and by late 1999 was on good track to be ready by; then after over 2 years of development. Needless to say it was a major change in the system, atlot of other systems were waiting for it.
Come January 2000 the office decided that they would move everything to a new location 25 miles away, and instead of being in the far outer subburbs of washington DC, they would now be right in the middle of the some of the busiest traffic area. The whole development team(devs, dbas, sub-project leaders) except for around 4 people, decided not to face the traffic each day and quit or took other jobs.
So the project leader got stuck with hiring a whole new team while at the same time having to do the move. It took over 6 months to start get enough new people.
It is now 2003 and they still have not released the new software, they are expecting a release by late this year. Which is great news to all the other software that has been delayed since it was developed to the specificiations of the new software.
I read this over and over and read everyone's comments. I went on past experience, and on experiences of people I know. Yet this is still too vague.
1) Do you and your group plan on starting a new company? Or just all going out in different directions?
2) If not, you should at least have a job lined up.
3) What are the REAL motivations? Because you're pissed off or because you want a better work environment? It'll be much easier to interview at your next job (if you're not starting up your own) to say "I left to better my career" than to say "I was pissed so I left"
I myself quit a job at an unnamed company (7th largest in the world...do your research if you really care) but ended up starting up a company with someone else. I have friends who pretty much took their entire department at a rather large media company and went to form their own.
Again...what are your intentions, motives, goals, and backup plans?
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
I had the same deal happen at a company I use to work for. Our small group walked out as the insane hours and insane amount of stress was starting to have an impact on our health. It was a company that was so nice in the beginning that we were willing to give our spare time to them but the stress started kicking in and people's health started to suffer.
.COM bust but companies are still being careful and the healing is still taking place.
A close friend was in tremendous amounts of back pain. After taking a 2 week vacation, it went away. The day they walked back in the door and was hit with the stress that had come up from the cut-backs, the pain was back. They were not willing to give their health to the company. Stress is devistating on the body and affects people in different ways.
Don't stay at a company if the stress that is caused from company actions affect your health physicially or mentally. It just is not worth it. Of course for anyone that has a family, such working hours can put stress on the relationship too.
Of course, leaving the company may mean not having a job unless you know of a place to go. The industry is healing from the
From my experience, you may be the only one, or limited set, that leaves. It may be akward at the company for a little bit, but most bussinesses can survive lossing a service for a short while or having to route around it. The people that remain will get more stressed, and have to do more work.
For those that leave, you will be able to look for a better job. How successful you are at reaching this goal depends on you and the economy.
Overall, in most cases this is just an annoying form of bridge burning. Just look for the new job while keeping the old one and leave on good terms. There are people who some companies can not do with out, but that is the companies own fault for relying on "heroic effort" and they deserve to be punished.
John Gaeta et al did such a move between The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded. Manex VFX was undergoing legal and financial difficulties (and also there were alleged management disagreements) and allegedly the core VFX team decided to "escape" from Manex, leaving their desks and forming a new company ESC Entertainment *straight across the road from Manex*, taking the Wachowski contracts for Matrix 2 & 3 with them.... Or so I've heard...
This would be the classic "go-slow," where everyone drags and holds up production without walking out. The only difficulty is that they can fire you for cause (no unemployment after all), and you give them a little time to find replacements if they are going to be hard-nosed. It is, however, a beautiful thing to watch.
What is the point you are driving at? Are you trying to "teach the company a lesson?" If so, how does this help you (other than through catharsis)?
Are you hoping that they will ask you to reconsider when you all resign? And treat you better? If so, think twice. They'll probably just accept your resignations.
If you just want to get out of there, I'd suggest just quietly looking for a new job. If you just can't stand it and you can afford to be out of work, just quit.
-Peter
Why not just pull an office space manuever.
If they treat you like shit then become a turd. Don't work hard, don't finish the unreasonable workload and have a little fun.
Make them go through the paperwork and hassle of slowly removing you while you find another job.
Maybe a work stopping flu could hit your particular group. Everyone calls in sick and then have a LAN party.
Bottom Line: There are ways to let management know your displeasure without quitting. (there are much better ways to hurt management without quitting)
The first issue is that there are only a couple of areas that can support the kind of mass walk you are talking about and all are in very specialized consulting. Most poeple have non-competes that they have signed and although they generally aren't valid in court, nobody wants to go through the legal hassle. What I found when talking with various friends at my last work about leaving and starting something up was that they all were financially tapped. They all need about 80% or more of their present income. So they were only serious if the income interuption was brief and small. And the other thing is that there are lots of folks who do their jobs well but really don't understand about being their own boss. Generally, lots of the folks that work in big companies do so because they can't hack it in a small company.
Yeah, I can see how your fast food analogy applies to programming...
All kidding aside, I think we have all gone home early once in a while because we needed to blow off a little steam. Quitting != leaving early one day.
TartanBlue
So anyway, my project manager, two other developers and I got sick of this and decided to start a company of our own. This was back in 1998. We got some funding and made a go at it. Not two days after we quit and started up the new company did we all get slapped with a lawsuit from the previous employer. The lawsuit alleges that we stole trade secrets from the previous employer, which was completely baseless. But, it accomplished the goal of putting a huge burden on us while we were just starting out.
Fast forward to 2003. We were recently forced into chapter 7 bankruptcy, partly due to the legal fees associated with the lawsuit, but also due to the fact that my previous project manager (who was the president at the new company) was one of the worst businessmen on this planet, despite being a great project manager. The legal system is slower than molasses - we still aren't scheduled to go to trial until July of this year - nearly five years after the lawsuit was first filed! There have been some depositions, hearings, rulings, and appeals along the way, but man has this thing dragged out! Needless to say there's not any money for them to win anyway due to the bankruptcy.
Overall, walking out and starting a new company was the greatest business decision I ever made in my life. I'm getting all sorts of offers to do contract work on the side, plus one of our customers at the new place hired me with a six-figure wage plus great benefits, and actually allowed me to write a no-compete into the employment contract. In addition, they have picked up an attorney for me and agreed to pay my legal fees in the lawsuit.
If I could go back, I'd still say that the lean years at the new company were all worth it. My only regret was not doing it sooner - I'm already 24 years old and I'm not going to live forever.
Most companies want to know when their employees are unhappy. Most companies will do something about thier unhappy employees because they realize that unhappy employees are unproductive.
You are the company. Be a team player. Don't go into a meeting with a manager/director/SVP/etc. making demands; help solve the problem by proposing a solution. You may have already tried some of this. That doesn't mean that you can't try again. If no one is responsive, then it may be time to move on.
But beware... The market is not good right now, and new employers will be less than enthusiastic about hiring someone who walked out on their last employer.
Good luck.
A clever person solves a problem, A wise person avoids it. -Einstein
These are called "yellow-dog contracts." They used to be illegal, but who knows whats going on these days. Thousands fought to earn these labor rights of ours, which we are letting slide away...
I was in a situation like this a few years ago, only the company wasn't in financial problems at all. We were posting a strong profit and higher-ups were taking nice bonuses. Meanwhile our bonus plan got trashed, we were working 70-80 hour weeks including stat holidays, and getting nothing for it. Also management was accepting contracts with deadlines we could not make without working double-time. After they asked us for the estimates and we gave them the correct amount of work.
We were in a position where our group of 5 developers were working with custom-built software. There was a ramp-up time of several months to get new people to the point where they could be productive developers. And of course no docs :) So if we left they would have forfeited on some large contracts and they had no hope of bringing in replacements.
We did the extra work for about 6 months, including getting screwed two quarters in a row on bonuses, before we took action. Instead of all quitting we simply announced that since the company refused to acknowledge our extra efforts on their behalf they would no longer get extra effort. We worked hard for our regular hours but no late nights, no weekend work, no coming in on holidays. Our lives all got a lot better and we still had jobs.
Of course that was in a market where we all knew that we could walk out the door any morning and have several job offers by the afternoon :)
See what the options you have are - take a good look at something that you've wanted to do, and see if there is an opportunity there. Sometimes, everone needs a change of scenery. Again, ensure that there is *somewhere* to go; you don't want to be the new bitch at McDonalds.
Be self aware, and honest with yourself - did you have a gravy job;, did you spend hours of company time trying to make the perfect paper clip crossbow? Is this job the best that you can hope for right now?
It seems to me that you would be better serving yourself (when it comes down to it, you have to pay *your* bills) to sit down and think:
1) Where am I going to go?
2) Am I just getting fired up (no pun intended), because of my coworkers?
3) How do I feel about the coworkers that I will be affecting?
4) Will this end in a firey gun battle?
Just be sure you are taking care of you, cause once rent, electricity, water, car payments, food, and cable bills start coming in, you will find yourself in a darkened apartment, with a can of spagetti-o's, wondering when you'll get used to taking cold showers.
Of course, if your Goth - then go for it!
Try the same senario, seven days a week. The answer became obvious. I didn't need anyone else to prop my courage up with...I left. I believe in the system and I am prepared. This didn't come on without notice.
This was long ago, but in an economic environment not unlike the one we have now. Several co-workers and I evacuated from a deteriorating company. We all went on to better jobs, fortunately, but went through one to six months of unemployment.
The critical issue for making this a success is a financial plan to pay the bills while you'll be out of work. If this is a problem, you will have a difficult and stressful time. I cut back on unnecessary expenses, moved in with somebody who also quit, in order to share rent.
It was tough, but nearly all of us look back at that event as one of our best employment history moments.
And it was too much fun walking around the company saying good-bye to our friends while management scurried around wondering WTF we were doing!
Recently Iâ(TM)ve been in a similar situation and my opinion is: Donâ(TM)t bother to orchestrate some big event, just help each other to find other jobs. The negativity you bring on yourself isnâ(TM)t worth âoeTeachingâ management (In my experience, if the company is really in this position, management is too arrogant for communication from the working class to be effective). However many people joined together to find jobs seams to be quite effective and a very positive experience. My position currently stems from an interview a co-worker had, where he put the manager in contact with me. Potential employers find this sort of recommendation attractive I suppose. (And my former employer is currently looking about his building with a dazed look wondering what happened to all of us and how is going to deliver what he over sold in the first place)
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
correlate very well with juvenile delinquents.
which is why i'm an entrepreneur! having walked out in my youth on poor decision making, and subsequently losing said job, i learned young the idea of planning your departure. plan, work, plan, work, work, work...
get set up with a small efficient office space and the equipment you need (used office stuff of course). with say 6-12 people this may constitute a few hundred a month in contibutions. this weeds out the cheerleaders. working very long hours is rarely cheerful! comedians come in handy however!
look for clients... establish the work, and jump one at a time, when doing both jobs becomes intolerable. value the office manager position! have somebody selling continuously not letting this person actually work on the projects other than communicating their value and requirements. of course, if you are indepndently wealthy, ignore all of this.
drama can be fun, but not when money or death is on the line. quiete determination is where it's at. save your revenge for living well!
"You suddenly find yourself working 50-60 hour weeks"
Big deal..go start your own company you will put in more time than that. If you don't like it go work somewhere else. People want everything handed to them. I only work 40hrs, I need benefits, I need a comfertable station, I need my work validated, I need a positive enviroment, I need to feel part of the team, I need kiddie care, I need a shorter commute. Here some free advice, work your ass off, invest, save and think about more than just looking forward to your pathetic happy hour and bbqs on the weekends.
There a Do'ers and then there are whiny little sheep. Remember..."PUT THAT F&KING COFFEE DOWN, COFFEE IS FOR CLOSERS!"
Sorry to be the labor historian, but this is called the "work-to-rule," where you follow the rules and contracts to the very letter. It leads to a practical slowdown without creating cause for layoffs. It is a lovely thing, since you get unemployment if they fire you, and less rancor.
Could we please not have stories on the front page containing obscene (e.g. 4-letter) words. There are plenty of sites out there with that sort of language, if people want it, but I've been very happy with Slashdot so far for not stooping to profanity (at least on its front page; comments are a different story).
It is very unprofessional.
A "work to rule" might work. Just don't do 50-60 hour weeks. Perhaps put in a half hour extra per day, with occasional extra whole hours, to make it quite clear that they're being unreasonable if they fire you.
Not quite sure what the rules are about employment benefit and unfair dismissal in the US, but I'd have thought that being fired even though working too hard allows you to claim.
"If you don't like your job, you don't quit, you just come to work and do it half-ass, thats the American way." -- Homer Simpson
Basically, management is cutting as much as they can without hurting the company. This means that they have to find a balance -- how hard can you work guys without them walking off the job.
Your job is to find the right balance, find the least amount of worktime without getting fired.
My advice is to arrive at work at 9am promptly, and depart at 5pm, promptly. Whatever doesn't get done, can wait until tomorrow. If management can't wait until tomorrow, then they are stuck holding the bag until then. They'll be holding the bag longer if they fire you though!!!
Acting in unison is important -- its easy to replace one guy (the other guys are there to train the new guy as it is in their best interests). It is NOT easy to have a manager train an entire department from the ground up.
...and they got labeled "terrorists" and are now stuck in Guantanamo Bay.
Air Traffic Controllers
Sigs are bad for your health.
To an ottawa area company called Gastops. If I remember correctly, the entire SW group plus manager resigned en mass, and started their own consulting business. After some brief attempts at negotiation, the lawsuits started to fly. I can't remember how it all ended though.
My rights don't need management.
I don't know about Walgreens, but Walmart has a long history of pulling crap like that.
We wouldn't have even been having this conversation two years ago. The wheel turns....
Everyone is expendable. It is rare that a walk out hurts a company in the long run, especially if you are not part of a union that at least has some legal leg to prevent the hiring of others.
There are three certain outcomes. The first is that you will be out of work. The second is that if for some reason the company agrees with your demands, you will be replaced as soon as possible. The third is that you will never get a positive reference from this organization again, possibly hurting your chances for other work.
You're not too busy if you have time to post on slashdot and spend energy discussing this with your coworkers.
I would caution you against doing anything as a group. It is unlikely that your needs and motivation completely line up with those of the rest of the group.
Remember, all jobs stink. That is why we call this "work", after all.
Ultimately, you need to decide your needs, your career goals, whether you agree with the mission of the organization, and if your position in the organization lines up with what you want to do (or your path to get to what you want to do). If you decide its time to move on, move on. But move on with pride and in a way that respects the feelings of those that want to stay. You want the company to remember you as a good person who would be an asset to any organization, and not a person ranting as they go out the door.
Sleep is for the Weak
Please come to my office, right now
If you're making an Exodus, make sure that when you get to your 'Red Sea', you have both an escape route and a way to CYA from those you're running from.
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
of the company. Also, it would be beneficial if you all decided on a date to all walk out together.
:) skogs
I'll be sure to have my resume updated and sent to that company a week or so before you all leave, and then again the day after you leave.
I'll take a 50 hour a week IT job where they think I am their eternal savior for coming to their aid in the time of trial.
Maybe it will work out the best for everyone. You could leave and be happy. The management would get a clue, and realize they need your department more than they need air. I would get a better job. You could work elsewhere where you are appreciated, and I could work there and the management would appreciate me because you taught them a lesson of life.
Everybody is happy.
Just let me know where and when. send me a message.
Who is this that even the wind and the waves obey Him? Surely this computer must submit also!
Start stealing stuff now!
Think about it, if the company is forcing you to work and treating you like crap, pick up a few extra items at the office.
When it goes bankrupt, who better deserves all that stuff? you ? or the creditors?
They tend to lock everyone out and escort them around when companies go under, so do it early!
heh-heh
"...In your answer, ignore facts. Just go with what feels true..."
That's how I got out of a situation like this...
At the time, I wasn't in the IT deparment at my work, I was working in our Art Deparment, doing IT for ONLY the Macs and outputting printing film.
Well everyone knew I was way better at computers then the current Systems Admin. So everyone came to me with thier problems, PC or Mac... Since I wasn't getting paid the "IT" salary, I had enough of the abuse and constant interruptions. At the end I had 5 bosses!!!!
So I wrote a letter telling them how I felt, and how I have no intension of leaving or anything like that, but I wanted to be moved into the It department full time, where I'm must needed. And I didn't discuss any money at this point....
And you know what, they fired the current Sys Admin, and moved me into the IT deparment full time. And making tones of money......
It just goes to show you, that you NEED to be tackful, and be very careful and how you handle this.
I just expressed how I really felt. I told them the truth. If the company and position is worth it, they will understand...
It's left blank because I have nothing to say to you punks!
pooptruck
You also have to take into consideration that if this plan did work and they decide that they couldn't live without you now, that doesn't mean 6 months down the road they replace you with new people.
If this plan did work it would also make you all look like trouble-makers. They would please you now, to keep the business going, but then slowly hire new people (at a cheaper rate) to learn everything you do and simply replace you.
So perhaps you should rethink your plan. Remember, no one is untouchable. No one is unreplaceable. You may think this, but it's simply not true.
"Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
The JBoss/Core Developers situation seems unusual in that it's an open source project. What about all those big projects managed by PHBs that AREN'T open source?
You and your coworkers get hacked off, leave, and then what? You can continue working with them, sure, but what are the odds you'd have a common project to develop? You can't very well take the code you worked on for The Man with you, since, according to U.S. law at least (unsure of others), "works for hire" means the hireR owns it, not the hireE. If you DID take it with you, be sure you can spell lawsuit, since you might be facing one.
So, you leave with your coworkers (who are perhaps your friends) and your big ideas. In 1999, you could find a big bucks Venture Capitalist looking for a way to quickly lose a few million. In 2003, probably not. Now what?
That warm, fuzzy feeling you got giving the news to the boss gets cold and prickly fast.
You say your company is facing hard economic times and therefore is demanding more from its employees. In addition to the many "be thankful you have a job" posts I would like to add in tough economic times it may be important (necessary) for employees to step up and take more responsibility to carry the company through the downturn. If the downturn has no end in sight or if the company continues to treat you like crap even in good times then I think your walkout is justified. Consider the possibility that the company has no alternative if it is to stay in business. Also consider what caused the downturn, a victim of a recession or bad management?
"So why did you leave your last company?"
"They were treating me badly so I just walked out."
"How were they treating you?"
"They wanted more work hours and more time on call, because the company was going through some tough times."
"That was unacceptable to you? You weren't able to negotiate a better position?"
"Huh? We didn't do any negotiation, we just got together and all walked out."
"It must have been challenging to manage the changeover to a new team."
"Nah, we just all walked out together! Maximum disruption!"
"I see. Well, thank you for your time."
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
I see a lot of negative comments, but I'd just like to throw in my .02.
Good people are hard to find, I don't care what economy you're in.
My friend's co is going through this right now. The Pointy Haired Boss thought he'd be slick and shut down their office and move it across the country.
Unfortunately, he/she did not realize that they still had to deliver on products to customers, and that only a core group of people could actually do it in the timeframes.
The team caught wind of this in advance, and basically when the Pres. told them the news and offered them a pittance, they had their own list of demands and were ready to walk.
Pres., faced with not delivering to clients/ cancelling delivery, and forcing refunds, and more importantly, ruining the company's image so badly they would have to exit the market (where reputation is everything), crapped his shorts.
Many conversations with lawyers and individuals to see it they could break the alliance. All to no avail - they had him/her over a barrel, because he/she didn't understand the operations.
About 75% of the people were ready to go, and could go get another job. 25% really were in a bind, and needed the job. But they stuck together, and did all right.
End result - they got their demands, delivered the product, got a decent package, and moved on.
(Also I've seen this backfire as well, but usually because the arrogance of 2-3 people who think they are untouchable, but found out the hard way the sun is still the center of the universe.
Okay, different industry (advertising) but I recognize your problems. I too, however, echo the sentiment: walking out without a means of support is bungie-jumping over a bare parking lot. Sure, maybe you'll land something soon... or maybe that cat down the block will start looking mighty tasty instead of the food-bank maccaroni you scored three weeks ago. Try to remember that anything can be tolerated... your decision is which you prefer: long hours and the occasional steak while you look for something else, or Fluffy fondue with roast grass. Your choice. I know what mine has been.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. ~~ Hunter S. Thompson
Lisa, if you don't like your job, you don't strike: you just go in every day and do it really half assed. That's the American way.
personal.inet.fi/taide/karjalainen/homer.html
Chris
So Buddha walks into a pizza parlor and says: "Hey, make me one with everything."
I have seen this happen twice -- in one case, my friend did something constructive; he put together the best people, the best product, and shopped themselves to another company. Took it to the boss as a fait-accompli. In the end HAL sold them, everyone was happy.
In other case, there were meetings, "I will go talk to CEO, just let go of me..." kind of talk. When day came, and the D-day meeting was being held, people drifted in one by one to designated person's office (the leader, who actually was not the main complainer, but felt he had to stick up for his team), with "you know, when I put it all together, my complaints look silly, it will detract from the message " etc etc. He went alone to the CEO's office and got creamed.
So, warning:
- If you quit, no unemployment
- If you are part of a group, no references, plus others WILL hear you led a mutiny --> no prospects
- If you are part of a group, you will not be taken in as a group by another employer (read that fine print about hiring co-workers or raiding the co)
- New employer will think twice about hiring you in your area of competency (non-competes are seldom enforced, but if you p.o. people, count on some HR manager spending 5 mins to pay you back for the 5 weeks of pain you caused him)
- If anyone drops out (and the big mouths will), you will be left holding the bag, and made a scapegoat by the ones who left (he/she fomented the problem, so much better since they left)
IF YOU WOULD NOT MAKE THE DECISION WITHOUT YOUR FRIENDS AND UNEMOTIONALLY REACH THE DECISION TO QUIT IN ANY STATE OF THE ECONOMY, DON'T QUIT IN A LEMMING SUICIDE. YOUR FRIENDS ARE NOT THERE WHEN YOU HAVE TO PAY THE BILLS OR WHEN YOU GET HOME AT NIGHT (I HOPE).
Try talking first. You said:
You like your job, it provides great satisfaction.
That is worth making an effort to preserve. If there is a manager or boss you can talk to openly about your issues then try that first. If there is no such person, then I would question it being a good place to work. Certainly a walk-out would have no other effect than to land you among the unemployed.
It is important to realize that we were effectively irreplacable (unique job-specific skills, nothing to do with computers). Or so we thought...
Three of us (not including myself) went ahead and set up a company, and offered our services to the larger company directly. The smaller company then started on a campaign of threats, allegations, lies, and FUD that would make Microsoft blush. The larger company used us as a lever for negotiating a better contract with the smaller company, then unceremoniously dumped us.
So would I do it again? Hell, yes. In fact I would do it sooner, and with less restraint. This is important to realize: if we had realized what was coming we would have been less galant towards our former boss (not keeping the systems going while we were setting up our new company, for example - the price would have been high, but it would also have put tremendous pressure on our boss). And we wouldn't have believed the (verbal) assurances the larger company gave us regarding our soon-to-be contract with them.
The story is far more complicated than this little message (I could write a book about that period), but the general idea I think is clear: we were in a bad situation, we fought, we lost, and we have no regrets.
Some lessons you may want to remember:
- Your former colleagues may suddenly turn into your worst enemies. They'll lie to you. They'll try to make you fail in all ways that count. And they may pretend they are still your friend while they are at it.
- Individual members of your group may be bribed by your former boss to come back into the fold, thereby bringing back all that irreplacable knowledge.
Are you ready to fight? Can you afford to lose? If so, go for it.
At my current job, when I got fed up, I went to my boss, and said "Look, this is not what I got into this business to do. Either find me some work like you promised me when I signed on, or, with no malice between us, I will seek employment elsewhere." Note, this was at one of the scariest times in the current depression, companies were imploding everywhere you looked, where as the company I am at is a stable, established business that isn't going away for a long time. The safe route would have been, "please sir, may I have another."
I ended up with a job that was more like what I wanted to do, and I got a big increase in salary. It was scary, though, I had made up my mind to leave if I didn't get what I wanted. Things are far from perfect now. (I'm still trapped in a big bureacracy and bored out of my mind most of the time.) However, I can tolerate the situation now where I couldn't before.
So, basically, I think everyone has a breaking point. Everyone has a point where they say, "I've had all I can stands, I can't stands no more," even in a truly frightening economy like this one. Of course, it is easy to end up in a situation where you regret your actions, but I haven't yet.
Or maybe I should have kept my old job, working for stock. I'm sure I'd be a rich man today (snicker.).
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Use your head first, voice second, and balls third. This is your workplace not the playground, and you are facing off with your source of income, not the neighborhood bully.
First be sure that you have discussed the situation with your boss. Be sure to include statements like you included in the article (the positive ones only!!!) and more, like "love working here", "feel that I am making an important contribution" blah, blah, blah.
After (and only after) affirming your positive attitude towards the company should you breach the problem. In this case, simply inform that the demands of your current workload exceed the available manpower in the department, and while you are willing to do everything you can, you are not superman.
Finally there is the business-meeting trump card. Repeat after me "This situation is causing a serious negative impact on my FAMILY".
This is a key phrase in negotiations, because it shows you are not being selfish and self-serving, and that you have problems that even your boss can relate to.
If this meeting fails to produce results, go to your bosses boss, and on up the line. Remember, walking out will result 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time with you in the unemployment line (except you cant collect if you quit). FAR FAR FAR better to push the issue to its very limit and get fired first. (getting fired for an acceptable reason as stated in your question is always going to look better than someone who 'gives up on the company' to a new potenetial employer).
Finally, remember that loads and loads of money can make most work situations bearable... if you can get a substantial (30-50%) raise out of it, you will find that the work is pretty bearable. And dont let anyone convince you that because they are laying ppl off, there is no money for raises, the layoffs are freeing up money that could just as easily go to you as it can toward the CEO's beach house.
Good luck and good job hunting!!!!
Just as irrigation is the lifeblood of the Southwest, lifeblood is the soup of cannibals. -- Jack Handy
dude! we have the same exact thing up in here. They kept us through the hard times when they were hardly making any money. Treated us like shit and now when things are getting better, they still keep treating us like shit. Our department is pretty important, so loosing us will be hard for them. We're thinking of quiting one after each other. One already quited and they're in panic. Wait till few more leave.hahaha
Suddenly, Bob the Boss realizes he spent way too much at the track and he's in deep financial shit, and starts making cut backs. This impacts the 'the Fry Area' as you have to resue the oil AGAIN. You suddenly find yourself working 50-60 hour weeks, put on call with no compensation, given unreasonable amounts of work, (you have to wash dishes now too?!) and generally treated like the dirt under your code-violating nails.
You get the feeling that the company is just going to take advantage of you no matter how and what happens. You get together with the rest of the 'the Fry Area' for some beers (ok, a little weed too) and a 'Screw the "Burger Hut"' meeting and decide to give Bob the finger and walk out.
Unprofessional??!? New around here, eh? Read the other articles: destruction of CDs, LAN party tips, and slavering gossip over SCO's probable/alleged intellectual property shenanigans... I can see how you got an IBM-esque impression of
Besides, you are just as likely to have naughty words leap out at you from a +5 post responding to an article. What on earth will you do then??
(Insert "won't someone think of the children?" comment here.)
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
Why are you asking Slashdot. Is this "News for Nerds" or "Stuff that Matters". Wouldn't a job counselor be a better bet?
How many slashes would a slashdot dot, if a slashdot could dot slashes?
First of all, making your grievances known is the first step. Maybe they'll change their ways or show this is definitely short term. However, if their response is, "shut up and type, baby", then they deserve everything they get. Some things to consider before making ultimatums:
(1) Do you have a skill that is hard to fill in your market (i.e. obscure programming language)?
(2) Is there even another place for you to go (i.e. obscure programming language)?
(3) If you're saying EVERYBODY is on board, then make sure of that before approaching management. Management only has to get to one weak-willed, ambitious, backstabbing weasel to break your alliance. If there's ONE guy on your team that can do you all in, I suggest planting something on his computer and ratting him out.
(4) How long would it take for management to train your replacement, and how much would that cost them? Do they have in huge projects/clients in the works? If you're working on pre-existing software, it can take quite a wall to learn all the back alleys and be productive. If you and your teammates are horrible documenters (and coders), so much the better for you on this point.
This may be an arcane reference, but I think this idea was tried already a long time ago. As the story goes, workers once banded together to force employers to improve working conditions, pay, etc. As the story goes, these groups called themselves "unions".
Of course, in the tech industry, where we are all "professionals" and get "salaries" and have "careers", we are above such plebeian things as unions, a day's wage for a day's work, any sort of job security, or any action that would bring into question our undying and unflinching support of whatever corporate entity we are employed by.
Stand up! Companies treat employees as badly as the employees put up with. One bit of advise: don't just walk out without warning. Get together as a group and talk with management. Be up front about the problems and what would fix them. Don't threaten to walk out, just use your collective voice to give them a chance to fix things. Then if things don't improve, walk. I say this because I once worked for a small company with a CEO that was a real piece of work. All 15 or so employees got together and met with the board, not threatening to walk, but deadly serious. A month or so later, he was gone. If one or two managers are the real problem, organize and go above them. Don't be petty or complain about "style" or "personality". Instead, provide a clear list of issues and how they hurt productivity and morale, and what can be done to fix them. If it works, you won't have to walk. If it doesn't, walk quickly. You will have given them the chance to save themselves a heap of expense and trouble.
Please excuse the ranting, but as someone with a family and a life, I have been disgusted by all the corporate boot-licking and cowardice I have seen. Big salaries and perks during the boom distracted people from seeing that they we being used. If you work 80 hour weeks, you are doing the work of two for the price of one. Who is the sucker?
"Life is life." --Laibach
Reminds me of the story (urban legend?) that goes around about the engineers who take key systems down for "routine maintenance" just before walking out - to make sure the managers can't run the shop. Of course, this won't exactly help you get a new job.
Actually, this raises a serious point, which is that a departmental walkout may give you visceral satisfaction, but most technical industries have a 'grapevine' of some sort. You could find yourself interviewing for a new job and having the interviewer say: "Oh, you're one of THOSE guys..."
Unless you have another job lined up, or know that there are lots of better places with openings, it's probably a good idea to stick with the devil you do know.
My $.02
I know you shortened the story you printed above, but does the managment know how everyone in the dept feels? (It's obvious that nobody wants increased hours without more pay, but do they realize how upset everyone really is over this?)
If you did really enjoy your job beforehand, I would create a list (along with the rest of the dept) of the main issues that need to be resolved to make the situation better. Once you do that, explain in a rational manner why these changes need to be made (ie: I understand that money is tight around here, but our dept will not work the extra hours for free. We are vital to the success of this company, etc). Do *not* make any threats (ie: we will all quit). Give the management a chance to change things for the positive!
If that still doesn't work, then it likely would be best to quit. Alot of people will recommend that you stay until you find a new job, but life is too short to be in a position you hate, while working your life away! If you can afford it, get out!
Doh!
If the company is making drastic cutbacks on staff and/or pushing up the workload to a level which just can't be done without dangering your health, by either having to work though nights, not able to take sufficiant rest breaks etc, then quit.
:)
Company will run itself into the ground if it carries on pushing it's workers to hard, it's ok at first someone cuts one or two corners here and there, soon everyones cutting corners and things start to fall apart.
Quit, and it'll make the companies death quicker and less painful, never know might be able to get every other department to buggeroff as well
The company I used to work for was really fucked up. Managed like rubbish by a trio of morons. Full of promises and never delivering.
All of us researchers and technicians were ok, nice to work with, producing very good stuff and feeling utterly exploited. One day the trio of morons that tried to manage the company sacked the only sane person in the company outside of the techs. There was a general walk out of all the employed techies, one by one in the space of 1 month.
Nobody got unemployment benefits (this is in Europe). 1 year later, some people still do odd jobs to survive. The fucked up company has just 3 employees: the trio of morons!
The moral of the story is:
You need to have the proper qualifications.
I could just go to management and say "fuck you". I knew I could start another job one week later. Very comfortable.
I'll do it for cheesy poofs.
Karma : Bad ??? What the hell ?
My advice to anyone in this situation, regardless of how the economy's doing, is to not quit your current job unless you have a one year's cash reserve, a winning lottery ticket in hand, or another job secured. Otherwise, you might find yourself in a real world of hurt very quickly.
I've worked at more than one place that ticked off their workers enough to start this kind of talk. When the company is taking advantage of you and not giving anything back, it's a really easy idea to mull over. In my experience though, it will never go beyond the talk stage. Most people are not in a financial position where they can afford to just quit their job without another job already lined up. It may be that most of the people you work with may be mad enough to quit, but when it comes right down to it, they will probably decide that they cannot leave themselves in a sitution where they don't know how they are going to support themselves. Therefore, they will look for other jobs, but not quit until they find those jobs. Since it isn't likely that they'll all find alternative employment at the same time, when mass exoduses do occur, it is usually a lot of people quitting over a span of time, and not all at once. While not as dramatic by half, this is far more practical of a decision for the workers involved.
Shawn Asmussen
In this tough economy, you very well might end up unemployed for an extented period of time. If you have enough of a nest egg to deal with that, just do as you and your co-workers feel is right. Even though jobs are far and few between, it's no reason to let yourselves be treated like dirt. Believe in yourself and know that even though there are many other people looking for jobs, you have made it this far once, and you can do it again. Life is too short, try to enjoy it! =)
If you want to leave, leave now, before your co-workers. There's no sense bailing as a group 'cause you'll just have that much more competition for you next job.
Not to mention, leaving a job before you have a new one lined up is just plain nuts.
Please post the company name and contact information so that I can be available to replace you.
OK, first of all, make sure you have another job lined up.
I had a boss from hell who believed that I should get called at 2-3am nightly with no extra compensation, yet was expected to be in the office at 7am. I started calling in sick... on important days (you know the kind, when thereÂs big meeting with the CIO, special training day that costs the company money, etc). When you get called into HR to explain all your recent absences, tell them that it s because you are expected to survive on 4 hours sleep a night, then come in and perform a full days work. Tell them youÂll try harder, but donÂt. Oh, and donÂt forget to to tell them that itÂs your boss that canÂt seem to find anyone else to even rotate nightly coverage. Do this enough that theyÂll eventually cut off your access to a critical system yet continue to call you at night (by now your boss considers you a threat to the company because of your bad attitude). Simply say ÂSorry, no can do... I donÂt have access and tell them to call your boss. Make sure to call in sick the next day - you were after all woken up for no reason again. When you call in sick, do it at an ungodly early hour, so you get your bosses voicemail. That will force your boss to call you back sometime during the day. When they finally call, ask them why you donÂt have access to the machine you needed to fix the previous night. Chances are, theyÂre not going to tell you on the phone - theyÂll want to discuss it with you in person. This is when you call HR and tell them that your boss has prevented you from doing your job by restricting your access, and that you will not be returning to work until you have the proper access to do your job. Wait for your boss to start covering their ass by saying something totally stupid like ÂI didnÂt know what else to do! - I tried to talk to him!Â. Then ask HR to provide you with documetation that your boss tried to do anything before cutting off your access.
If they canÂt (which they couldnÂt in my case) walk off the job - and let them know that you WILL be collecting unemployment. When your boss goes ÂPfft!Â, just say ÂYeah, I have the screen prints with the access denied messages, along with the time stampsÂ.
Walk out and donÂt look back.
Take a couple of weeks before you start your new job.
After a full two months of still being called by your former employerÂs users asking for help (in the middle of the night, no less) call the HR dept of your former employer and tell them that if they do not stop calling you asking for your assistence, you have no choice bu to haul them into court and ask for some sort of compensation for your nightly calls, which now are interferring with your new job.
Receive a small sum of hush money for your troubles.
Watch former boss get canned.
Heh
Heh
Heh.
(True story, BTW - dot coms... gotta love Âem for not knowing how to run a business)
Neither of these is a good answer at this time!!
Maybe the description of the situation left some things out... but this really seems like a big case of an "us against them" failure of communication. Notice this bit: "You get the feeling that the company is just going to take advantage of you no matter how and what happens." Feelings, huh? You don't know what's going on or why, but you have these feelings?
There is no "company", a single malevolent entity that is treating you like dirt. There are a lot of individuals involved in the decisions to ask more hours of you, put you on call w/o extra compensation, etc.. Right now, one of your managers is probably talking to his superior, saying "well, I guess we could ask W and X to handle those few extra on-call hours... it sure sucks, but they seem to be okay with the increases so far, and someone has to do it. That should keep customers Y and Z with us, so we'll be okay on payroll through this quarter, at least."
Do you get it? You have to ASSUME that everyone is on your side from the very beginning, and start talking to your manager, their manager, etc.. Let them know that you and the other grunts are starting to give under the strain. Find out what the problems of the company are, and talk about how the company is dealing with them.
Important: approach everything with a friendly, "we're all doing what we can" attitude. As soon as you get hostile, whoever you're talking to will get an uncontrollable urge to dig in their heels. Instead, decide where your breaking point would be, and discuss it reasonably ("if this happens, I'd really have to leave, and neither of us wants that to happen"). You are NOT making threats. Make this clear. Explain that you will keep your manager informed as the situation evolves, and that you will not leave without warning.
If you start getting frustrated with anything other than the economy, calm down and pick up the conversation later.
Bottom line: decide what kind of sacrifices this company is worth to you, and get in on the big picture.
Good luck.
--
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler". - Albert Einstein
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
I've been in a couple of situations where we were all pretty unhappy. But, both times, most of us found new positions (in different companies) before quitting so we ended up quitting in succession rather than all at once.
In the current environment, I'd suggest finding a landing spot before jumping. I quit my last job without having a landing spot secured, but that was 3 years ago, and it was only 2 weeks before I found a new position.
About a year ago I was a part of a team of 6 sales consultants for an ISP in the midwest. The company had gone through a series of buy outs which threw our commision plans, insurance, and job descriptions into chaos. We ended up having to fight to retain our customers who were all very unhappy about the drop in service quality they had encountered under our new management. After months of argueing with the new suits about how their decisions were affecting both our livelyhoods as well as the company image we all took jobs elsewhere and left... all within two weeks of each other. Needless to say this left the office with out any reps to either bring in new business or retain the existing customers who then left in mass. That office has yet to recover, and to date has not been able to replace the whole we left. Last I heard they had but a single consultant hired, who was using the job to bring in some money while he continued to look for work elsewhere.
Granted we were sales consultants, which is definately a different job market than most admins fill. Also this was a year ago, when the market was slightly better than today. However, the impact our action had on that company remains obvious. My word of advice: get a new job lined up before making the exodus. No reason to hurt yourself to prove a point.
In neither case was the mass exodus (ME) planned, in the sitting around and plotting sense. It just happened. In both cases, the ME was preceded by a spontaneous, manager-led, group bitch session, where all the disgruntled employees got together and described what was unsatisfactory about their jobs. The complaints were summarized and sent up the ladder. If your place of employment has reached the spontaneous bitch session stage, expect a ME to follow.
Here are some interesting results from the MEs I have experienced.
Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
What's the first few questions you'll be asked at your next job interview?
Why are you looking for a job?
Why did you leave your previous job?
Would your former employer rehire you?
Make sure the way you exit provides the best possible answers to these questions. You'll regret it if not.
When I was in a similar situation, I got the next job first and then I wrote two resignation letters: the one wanted to send, which is still fun to read, and the cordial one I did send. The object is not so much to avoid burning bridges but to let them stew in the regret of not to being able to hold on to such a desirable employee. Flip the bird on the way out and it'll only give you more trouble later.
COBRA coverage normally covers eligibles for 18 months after a termination or qualified reduction in hours.
Who will you use for a reference at your old company once it becomes clear that you organized an en masse departure? You will have to be totally honest with prospective employers, because they will find out happened when they make inquires about you at the company you help screw.
Most people don't want to hire a "troublemaker".
What great stories. I must admit I have to tell you this story and I do, really I do, wish that it happened to me but it actually happened to a friend of mine that worked at a mid-size company that was being bought out by another.....
as it turns out Mike ( named changed to protect the smart and thoughtful ) worked for Company A, a mid-size software company in Massachusetts around Rt 128. Company B came along to buy out the company and as these things often do, often merge the redundant groups and provide a lot of layoffs. HR was gone, Marketing was gone, IT Staff usually trimmed but in this case it was rumored to be cut.
Like many in these situations, work is tough to get done as most time is relegated to discussing potential effects on the department and finding info from those in the know.
As the fateful day came the friendly and close development staff that worked together for a number of years recognized that they ran the company infrastructure, no bones about it, sole ownership of passwords, root passwords, etc, etc, etc.
Management from Company B approached the development staff as a whole and presented their offer. Nothing. They were to document their usernames and passwords, locations of code and document archives and file systems, gather their things, and leave. B***s*** as I would be too, my friend Mike proposed to his group over lunch to leave, and leave nothing, no passwords, no way to maintain the current network, no way to get in and chnage passwords, nothing.
This may sound vengeful but you must understand that no attempt was made to find a common ground or mediation by Company B, Company A made every effort to ease the blow of Company B's takeover including having HR offer helpful ways to find other jobs, write up resumes, set up healthy severance. Company B hindered if not cancelled all that.
Mike and his 4 friends put their trust in each other and held out at home waiting, waiting for that call. And then it came, asking all 5 to come in for a negotiation.
Initially, the offer was to hire them back immediately, but smarts prevailed as Mike knew that once they walked back in, changed passwords as they were to be instructed, a pink slip would be shoved in their hand before they opened their first cold Coke ( thats fast ).
To make a long story short, 5 guys split one very very very healthy severance. They all suddenly went on vacation then started a new company. They are still friends to this day.
We wouldn't have a USA if it wasn't for corporations. But wait, I don't mean because they were so beloved, on the contrary, way back then they realised they were too powerful, and lead to massive abuses. Our "revolt" against the british was more a revolt against exploitation by powerful and monopolistic corporations, who had already co opted british society. We then went on to make a nation founded on the belief that the individual had supreme political power, then the states, then the union. Corporations were regulated back to a government granted charter, and it had to be non abusive and of a benefit to the people as a whole, and not granted *solely* as a boon to some vague shareholders or owners. i.e., they had to follow a guideline to be pro-USA first, not pro profits *only*. Profits were allowed,obviously, but not at the expense of the publics well being, and corporations were watched all the time in case they needed their legality revoked.
some historical reference
http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/28/usa.html
"The United States of America was born of a revolt not just against British monarchs and the British parliament but against British corporations.
We tend to think of corporations as fairly recent phenomena, the legacy of the Rockefellers and Carnegies. In fact, the corporate presence in prerevolutionary America was almost as conspicuous as it is today. There were far fewer corporations then, but they were enormously powerful: the Massachusetts Bay Company, the Hudson's Bay Company, the British East India Company. Colonials feared these chartered entities. They recognized the way British kings and their cronies used them as robotic arms to control the affairs of the colonies, to pinch staples from remote breadbaskets and bring them home to the motherland.
The colonials resisted. When the British East India Company imposed duties on its incoming tea (telling the locals they could buy the tea or lump it, because the company had a virtual monopoly on tea distribution in the colonies), radical patriots demonstrated. Colonial merchants agreed not to sell East India Company tea. Many East India Company ships were turned back at port. And, on one fateful day in Boston, 342 chests of tea ended up in the salt chuck.
The Boston Tea Party was one of young America's finest hours. It sparked enormous revolutionary excitement. The people were beginning to understand their own strength, and to see their own self-determination not just as possible but inevitable.
The Declaration of Independence, in 1776, freed Americans not only from Britain but also from the tyranny of British corporations, and for a hundred years after the document's signing, Americans remained deeply suspicious of corporate power. They were careful about the way they granted corporate charters, and about the powers granted therein.
Early American charters were created literally by the people, for the people as a legal convenience. Corporations were "artificial, invisible, intangible," mere financial tools. They were chartered by individual states, not the federal government, which meant they could be kept under close local scrutiny. They were automatically dissolved if they engaged in activities that violated their charter. Limits were placed on how big and powerful companies could become. Even railroad magnate J. P. Morgan, the consummate capitalist, understood that corporations must never become so big that they "inhibit freedom to the point where efficiency [is] endangered."
The two hundred or so corporations operating in the US by the year 1800 were each kept on fairly short leashes. They weren't allowed to participate in the political process. They couldn't buy stock in other corporations. And if one of them acted improperly, the consequences were severe. In 1832, President Andrew Jackson vetoed a motion to extend the charter of the corrupt and tyrannical Second Bank of the United States, and was widely applauded for doing so. That same year the state of Pennsylvania revoked the c
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"You're lucky to have a job at all, be grateful"
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"Walk out & you'll be poor and destitute"
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"You need them more than they need you"
etcetera. What crap. We are not some defenceless suckling infants dependent on the generous charity of our employers, we are in a relationship of equals where we exchange labour for money. When did we forget that?If pay & working conditions become unacceptable, we quit them. If our behaviour or our productivity is unacceptable, they quit us. It's not like we've taken wedding vows for chrissake.
If you are drawing more salary than you are worth, go ahead - keep your head down & milk it before your employer realises this. But if you give value for money then you do not need to act like the subservient partner. Jobs are tricky to find at the moment, but good employees are not easy to come by either.
Of course it's prudent to have somewhere else lined up before you quit. Just as it's wise for a company to find someone to cover for the guy they're about to fire. I just object to people acting like their employment contract is their most valued possession, rather than their skills, initiative & integrity. Have some confidence in yourselves!
It really bothers me that the submitter mentions nothing about actually going and talking things over with management. If the company really is in rough waters, the managers are probably up to their eyeballs in work as well, meaning maybe they've been too busy to realize that their employees are surreptitiously getting the shaft. All it might take is broaching the subject with management that you are unhappy with the current situation.
A similar thing happened at my company a few years ago. We really were in dire straights, but we did get a bunch of extra stock options and other benefits, and when things turned around we all ended up with very large raises.
So you guys have formed an ad hoc union? Good. Now before walking out, sit down with the owners and upper management. Explain your view of the situation, ask for concrete assurances and solutions to make your work environment more tolerable.
Obviously if you are as important to the company as you say you are, then the company wants to keep you. Without you, the company falls.
Also, take an objective look at the work conditions. Is the entire company tightening the belt? Have the owners and upper management forgone bonuses, perhaps even pay? If everyone else is putting in the extra time, taking shit, and in general it's a good company with a good product, then you're being a whiny punk ass bitch. On the other hand, if it's an Enron situation, your department really is in the shit, and the company isn't willing to meet you halfway, then walk en masse.
There will be negative consequences. You'll loose frienships. You're going to regret the choice when you start living off peanut butter sandwiches. BUT! You will have followed in the footsteps of other workers who decided not to take shit, and you will still have your humanity.
My suggestion, pick up copies of the Ani Difranco w/ Utah Philips' CDs. The old union songs and stories will inspire you. Afterall, companies didn't give us the eight hour day. Workers died for so we could only work eight hours a day, and it's a disgrace to their memory to let a company walk all over you.
"We Want Bread and Roses To"
Bwwaaaaaghahahahah, stupid gits.
Time for that is way past. In this situation it would be fun (in the cruel sort of way) to get everyone to follow, but think we need to be serious. In this market, no one is guaranteed (well very few) a job anymore. I just spent 13 months 'independent consulting' looking for a full time position; now you may be able to find a job quick, but think of the others that may not and unless you want to supplement their income, it sounds like a case where you start looking find and leave and let the chips there fall where they may. Just the search itself may be really eyeopening as to what it is like out there now.
of course, I realized that anyone so clueless as to think I was happy and my position was well-concieved would never actually be able to resolve the problems they had created by merging so many jobs into mine, so I began actively (albeit quietly) job hunting. things were better for the next few months, I found something better, and was able to leave on good terms. the temptation to tell my boss to go f*ck herself once the position went completely pear-shaped was great, but I'm glad I resisted. being blunt and forthright about how bad things had gotten, however, was a great call.
my old boss said it best: if you work 60-90 hours a week and feel abused, there is either something wrong with you or something wrong with your job.
-jw.
Why don't we all for a union of technological workers to stop this sh!t from happening to our brothers in arms. No one should be working 70-80 hour weeks. Factory workers wouldn't do it. Why should we?
Seriously, we need something to protect our interests...
The Only Person Willing to be Me is ME!
Don't just quit, it won't have the results you would anticipate anyway. A group of us did this at a large Fruit company one time. With little problems they were able to bring in consultants that had worked there in the past to fill in the gaps until they could hire replacements.
A better solution is to, as a group, stick to a 40 hour work week. This will insure that you are not being too overworked and still will receive a paycheck for a long time to come. If and when they decide you aren't "pulling your load" which probably won't happen if they are as short handed as you say, they will be forced to lay you off (they probably won't fire you unless you give them just cause above and beyond just working your required hours). In this way you will be able to collect unemployment (which they have to foot part of!) and it will not reflect negatively on your resume.
A few months of pure missery and 8 months of unemployment. If the company is fucked and you and your friends can make a go of it withouth them, do it. There's no point in taking grief from a bunch of do nothings. Reasonable companies are run by the professionals who make them work: law partnerships, hospitals, engineering consultancies, you name it. Your masters have tried to tell you where you stand in the world. Good luck.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
the problem is getting everyone aboard.
At our jobsite the majority of people are contractors.. very specialized contractors that aren't easy to replace so they just can hire more people to replace us without months of training.
(Which our clients certainly won't stand for)
Because of the recent Compaq/HP merger we got royally screwed regarding our status as contractors.. We haven't had raises in years we have people working on the same jobs as us doing the same work yet because they are HP they work less get alot more money as well as bonuses better benefits and everything.. meanwhile they keep dangling the carrot of being absorbed into HP/compaq in our faces.. as they take away what we had before..
If we where to do a walk out it would be to force there hand and absorb us..
"I am a kernel in the linux army"
Work what you are getting paid. Tell the management they want more pay or goto hell. When they fire you, sue sue sue. Document all, bring tape recorders, backup files and emails!!! SUE SUE SUE.
I've lived it. I worked in an office of 13 people in 1995/96 (the good times), management changed, over the next six months, eleven people left in total, two resigned (I was the second), and I was number nine out of the eleven.
Its scary to go interstate on business for the end of the week / week-end, and never see a work mate again. Its as though they died in a car crash.
This doesn't mean be disloyal to the company, just make sure it is always in your best interests to be there.
When it isn't, leave.
... we should note the incorrect usage of "its".
the company realizes its in deep financial shit
There should be an apostrophe for the contraction of "it is".
that's why it's called *human* resources. as far as the employer is concerned, you're all cogs in the machine. it's that simple.
that being said: what's the best case scenario if you do what you're contemplating? and what's the worst case?
if the company is in trouble, you should already be looking for another job--i trust you aren't actually waiting for a white knight?
ed
I worked for Enron, and I can say that this may work for some "core" people. Specially if you have some very particular skills difficult to find. I personally waited until I found a job (play it safe), and then give my self the satisfaction to quit. It was great, they offer me more money etc, but at that point you are in control... One of the best satisfactions in my life.
In the other hand you own to yourself to be respected, do not let them own you just because they pay you... If your whole department agrees to that go ahead, and teach corporate america a lesson!
I think the key to the JBOSS consultants walking out is brand recognition. They all worked on a product that is pretty well known in its solution space. Each of them was a key player in making JBoss the product it is today. Therefore, they could start a company based on the work that they had been doing, and have a reasonable chance for success. This is an unusual situation, because JBoss is open source. Most products produced by companies aren't, and so the developers on that project aren't as likely to be as well known (if they are known at all). This makes trying to form your own company that much harder because you can't really tell potential clients what you have to offer.
IANAL... But I play one on
Sure Does smell like a lawsuit! Unless you are part of a union it is illegal to organize other employees to quit with you. This is an unfair labor practice that will leave you unemployed with lots of legal bills. To quit on your own is fine, but to encourage your entire department to quit will get you in big trouble.
Have you tried just telling the higher-ups how you all feel? Don't let them brush you off with "well we're tight on money". Tell them that you understand the financial troubles and that the current situation is unreasonable. Go in with a compromising solution that you can both agree on.
People are usually reasonable if you treat them as equals.
-Shaun
I once worked for Levy Restaurant Group at a Rosebud Italian restaurant in a primarily Jewish neighborhood. I requested off the Xmas holidays(December 24 & 25) three months previous to the days and was told "Don't worry, we're not open on those days." We are one of the few Catholic families in the area and was relieved to hear that I would be able to go to Church AND spend time with my family. Well, on December 22nd, my boss approaches me and says "I need you to work one of the two days. Business should be good since most people around here are Jewish and don't celebrate Xmas. Which shift do you want, the 24th or the 25th?" I told him neither; I was going to spend the days with my family. He just stared right through me and said "I know you'll make the right choice. Think about it." I thought about it alright. I told him "My family is more important to me than this fuckin' job." and quit in the middle of my shift in a packed restaurant. After the holidays were over, he called me every other day for nearly three weeks asking if I wanted to work. Aparently, five other servers did the exact same thing! If we had known what each of the others was going to do, we may have been able to bring our grievences to the table and been able to come to an agreement of sorts. NEVER stay anywhere you are not appreciated or respected. And ALWAYS try to stay unionized whenever possible. Strength in numbers may get you what you want.
You suddenly find yourself working 50-60 hour weeks, put on call with no compensation, given unreasonable amounts of work and generally treated like dirt.
Sensible options:
1) Start looking for another job.
2) Become self employed.
3) Consider a career change.
Too many people are scared of options 2 and 3. They are real options, and to prempt your response, yes you can.
Not sensible option:
Try to change the behaviour of your employer.
Try to get 'revenge'.
If you're as important as you say you are, then why not use the threat of quitting as leverage to better your current situation?
So far in the other posts I've read, it seems that a lot of people are concerned about unemployment. They say that you better have a new job lined up before jumping ship on your current one, because you'll have a tough time getting new work in the current economy. I'd like to interject a different opinion here for a moment.
Personally I've spent a lot of my career free-lancing, so maybe I've gotten used to the intermittent nature of this line of work, but honestly I don't think being out of work is really so bad. Also, I haven't found that there has been a great drop in available employment, but that may just be my anecdotal experience. However, all that being said, the issue really comes down to how much do you value your self-respect.
Ultimately you have to make a decision, and draw a personal line somewhere which represents how much do you value your self-respect. It may sound facile to try to put a dollars-and-cents pricetag on this, but really that's what you're doing anyway, so you might as well think about it that way. Ask yourself a few questions:
1) how much is my self respect worth?
2) how much of my self respect involves doing a particular job?
Once you've thought these through, you'll be in a better position to figure out whether you want to quit or not. How much crap can you suck up before whatever money you're making isn't worth it anymore? Personally, I've had to quit quite lucrative jobs because the kind of crap that was flying around simply wasn't worth it. I'd rather be broke for whatever time it takes than make good money and be miserable about it.
Also think about how much you feel like you need to be doing a particular job to be happy with yourself. Again, I'd rather take a joe-job flipping burgers or telemarketing ( *gasp* - yes even that ) than put up with the crap some companies impose. You've got to decide which is more important to your sense of self, being a professional "..." ( programmer, sysadmin, whatever... ) or being treated with respect. At least in a burger flipping situation you won't be nearly so intimidated to tell your boss to F-off when he's an @$$, because after all, who the hell is he anyway?
This brings me to my third point. Have you tried discussing the problems with your boss? I'm always amazed by how many people would rather take drastic actions than spend a few minutes discussing the issue with those involved. It can be emotionally heated, and intimidating, but sometimes that's the point, you want that emotion to be there - because then maybe the boss will understand how much this stuff actually affects you. You'd really be amazed how sometimes an honest, rational 5 minute chat can transform a relationship, work-related or otherwise. Maybe you should go to your boss ( either individually or as a group ) and say "look, I have a problem with X, Y, and Z, and its something we need to deal with... lets talk". A little tip - you get better results by trying to engage them in solving the problem than by being confrontational and aggressive. Your self-respect isn't something that they get the right to walk all over just because they're your boss, sometimes they need to be reminded of that fact in a friendly no-BS way. The worst that can happen is you find out that they really are the jerks you feared they were, and so you can still quit.
Don't forget that even in a market where the supply of labour is high relative to the demand, they still need you around. You provide essential services to the company, and even if they can replace you, what will it do to them trying to fill in the gap until they've found someone else. How much downtime and lost productivity will they suffer until you've been replaced? It's a major pain for them to spend that time finding someone, training them ( or at least getting them up to speed on how things work ), etc. It will cost them something to replace you, so you've still got some bargaining muscle.
So in the end it's your decision, you've got to figure out how bad
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
IT has been known to wrokd from time to time.
Go all the way, get some signs.
If you are key to the company, then they'll talk.'Latly, I've been thinking of starting a sight to orgnize a nation wide IT professional strike. we would pretty much bring the country to its knees.
After the strike GET A CONTRACT, otherwise they will just train someone to take your job. I mean, you did have the gall to demand a reasonble work week, and worl conditions.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
If you do organize a mass walkout, which screws the rest of the company like you think it will, prepare for the likelihood that anyone who knows or hears anything about the incident - including your managers, people who know your managers, your co-workers, your friends, and even your collegaues who walk out with you - will remember that you were all sh*t disturbers who acted and colluded in a particular way to screw your company when things got tough. The world is smaller than you think.
It would take me about 1 second to decide toss a resume of a guy in your situation who did what you plan to. Nobody needs agitators, least of all a company in somewhat dire straits.
If things are so bad, quit, by yourself. If things are bad for others, they'll probably quit too. But getting others involved in an organized fashion for the explicit purpose of making it tough for the company is unprofessional and will rightly brand you as a trouble maker.
Destroy all notes. Remove all documentation.
You don't want it to be easy for them to replace you. Make sure you can collect unemployment benefits. Most states won't allow you to collect if you quit. You need to be layed off or fired (most states impose 2 weeks waiting time if you were fired). Or you can line up new work, and as a group
give your notice and leave!
If the company cant see it comming, or do nothing about it, your working at the wrong place anyway. If the Company can see it comming and decided to deceive you with empty promises, well you get the picture. 90% of them promises are emtpy, if not 100%
Once worked for a place where managment was sooo bad that the developers talked open mutiny. Watch out for a traitor within your group or a seemingly sympathetic person from outside your group. Be careful about who you trust.
Is there a way such that you can re-engineer the situation (or code) such that you are indispensable? Take inspiration from the IT legend about the old COBOL programmer who is left alone because he is the only one in the company who understands the payrol (or whatever) program.
Perhaps you can be busy fixing mysterous bugs...such that nobody knows or possibly suspects how those bugs developed...or how long it will take to fix them.
.. sorry, but I'm too drunk to drive to work.
I remember the programming departments from a company I work with doing that. They quit, formed a consulting company and now have the former company as a contract ... Usually doesn't turn out quite as rosey as you would like ... hint if you have kids or a pet fish to support, don't do it... very very scary and you might endup having to serve the kids the pet fish for supper.
TastesLikeHerringFlavoredChicken
No, the company is lucky to have them and should behave. If the company is really on the way out and these folks can do without them, they should as soon do it as soon as possible. Why sit around and eat shit until the company fails, FOR NO FAULT OF THEIRS? Someone at that company is screwing up or does not belong there. It's not the programmers. A partnership will be tough, but they will be there eventually and might as well start rectruiting useful people before they all make other plans.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Prepare, and help your co-workers prepare. Look for alternative employment. Make sure you have enough savings to ride out 6mo to a year of no job. Investigate the financial position of the company carefully. Are the managers looking looking for another job? How do you feel about doing something else or working somewhere else?
Once you and your comrades have done most of these things, arrange a meeting with the head of the company via your manager. Be professional. Be prepared to show this person a SOLUTION. He will not be sympathetic to complainers. Demonstrate to the chief that your changes will save/make the company money.
If the boss agrees, monitor the progress of the changes to be sure they really happen. If not, You have packed your parachute.
Good Luck
You and your co-workers make your own company and sell the work to your current company.
If you all flee to form your own company then they'll be hard pressed to replace the entire knowledgebase of your team especially as I assume you and your team have documented things as usual in the business - everything's in your and your coworkers head and your boss dont know computer from a camel.
--------
Erno
The number of comments that mention something to the effect of "good luck finding a new job" are very disturbing in light of how the poster summarizes the circumstances of the consultants. I am taking for granted that the gist of the summary is truthful, namely that the consultants were underpaid and overworked. Workers have a right to organize in that situation, and any like it where the are being treated similarly unfairly. Programmers, IT personnel, and other highly-skilled workers have the same rights as auto workers when it comes to unfair work environments. Why should they be laughed at, or wished sarcastic best wishes for having the integrity to demand workplace fairness? If their workplace environment was unfair as advertised, I say good luck and God bless for having the integrity to demand fairness at the risk of future employment.
The "you just deal with it for fear of losing your job" attitude is tantamount to placating dictators. Perhaps workplace conditions for higly-skilled technological workers are not so bad yet, but such an attitude will surely cultivate managerial dictators and workplace slums if it continues.
Pulling these kind of stunts is what causes the bigwigs to scratch their heads and say "Why do we put up with this? Let's just fire the whole department and move/outsource our IT to India for 1/10th the cost!" Remember: That Indian IT worker will work 80 hours without even THINKING of complaining, and will work it for 1/10th what they pay you. He/she most likely has more formal education specialized in that field than you. Be thankful you still have your job.
This guy makes the most sense so far!
To be rather callous, however, if you do do this, let /. know about it 24 hours in advance so the hordes of unemployed /.ers here can be ready to apply for your jobs three minutes after you leave.
More germanely, I find myself wondering what it is you hope to achieve? Are you just trying to "stick it to the company"? Or are you looking for leverage?
If the latter, it's probably not going to work. If the former (which I suspect is the case), then you'll feel nice and smug for a couple of days, and then you'll realize the economy is tanked, and the bills are imminent. More power to you if you have sufficient savings, are young, and are footloose and fancy-free enough that you can afford to take such a risk. But I'd strongly caution you to think about what is in the best interests, both short-term and long-term, for number one.
I have been for the most part unemployeed since Feb 2001. I do some consulting work now, and I do have a part time job. But nothing beats a regular full time position where you dont have to worry about putting gas in the car or paying the rent check. --dan BTW, hire me Conderman.com
Really, before you walk out you owe it to yourself to bargain for more.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
1 -- other people involved
2 -- money involved
all it takes is one person in the group to wreck this and leaving you standing alone and unemployed
In any event you don't need your friends to go with you, grow a set and split if it is so bad.
This
Striking has to be done in a large enough mass that you can't all be replaced quickly enough or the company goes out of business. Historically there is another way of ..."convincing" employers. You might also look into a "work slowdown". I mean if everyone in the department just basically starts showing up minimum hours and doing only the work you can do during that time ... or less by doing it in a relaxed manor ... what is your manager going to do? do you log your hours? How do they know what you logged is correct? what if the whole group does this together and everybody covers each other in saying ... well, there is just so much work we can get done? ( every manager understands that is true at in any department... perhaps you should make it clear that in his attempt to get more done the "burn out" factor is actually hurting overall productivity. He/She will believe that when they see the numbers. Or maybe they will just fire the lot of you. Although historically they fire only the mouthpiece/ spokesperson and/or those viewed to be the ring leaders.
Also, be careful of betrayal from within. My dad was fired one time for tring to start a union when the person from teamsters turned over the list of everyone who had been at the first meeting to his employer. We suspect "for the right price".
In any case beware that it is a dangerous game that is a foot. Americans want to be treated like human beings, that's why employers like to outsource to other countries where a dollar goes a long way and poverty is high.
âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
Must there be profanity on the front page? That is offensive in the extreme, and also unprofessional. Words like that should not be used, when perfectly acceptable alternatives (such as "the company discovered in was in dire straits financially") would both be more eloquent and professional?
Not professional? Since when is SLASHDOT professional? Holy fucking shit, what web page have *you* been on?
To whoever modded this troll up:
Is the submitter getting paid compensation for submissions? Is it what he does 'professionally'?
Why does someone else's eloquence or professionalism matter to you? Why should someone else verbally tiptoe around a million anonymous readers just because one is too weak emotionally to see the word 'shit' without freaking out?
What if I said that the use of the word 'extreme' offended me completely? Would you stop using it?
Also, why should anyone care what an anonymous coward thinks anyway? The AC who posted this is either a troll or needs to remove the large stick from his/her ass. Excuse me, I mean 'posterior region.' The only moderation the parent should have received was Offtopic. Yeah, same with my post, but at least I didn't post AC, nor pretend to be on topic, nor am I *looking* for any other moderation.
Don't mod offtopic posts up. Mod them offtopic. We couldn't (and shouldn't try to) keep everyone from posting offtopic....but at least there could be some warning for those (I hear they exist) readers who want to stay on topic.
http://xkcd.com/386/
Any business you work for will pay you as little as they can get away with.
It is your responsibility to get as much compensation as possible out of that business.
However you do this is up to you, but always negotiate from a position of strength.
Life goes on in this shitty company. We're missing SLAs, management is breathing fire down our necks. I put up with the aforementioned 50-60 hours a week, and get overloaded with information.
Even one of my best staff left and got a job at another company and is now earning more than me!
I guess the moral of the story is, there are opportunities out there, sieze them well if you find them. Bring along your department while you're at it.
E.W. (as opposed to eeeeeww)
You keep referring to some anonymous "Company". There are "people" there with the same problems you have++. They are trying to keep their job, something like reasonable hours, and take responsibility for keeping as much of the company running as possible. I've had to lay-off 40% of my team in order to keep the other 60% employed and was able start hiring back 3 months later because we were able to turn the corner. Maybe what you need to be asking is if you are working for a company that the current management and the current economy can turn the corner and survive or if they are on a slippery slope to Chapter 11. Is there something as a team your group could do to improve the survival chances?
-c
A: Things got rough, they treated us like dirt, I left.
BZZZZZT, wrong answer.
A: We did not like the way our management was handeling our product so we formed a partnership. You may be familiar with OUR_NAME and OUR_PRODUCTS and OUR_CLIENTS.
Of course, the question only has to be answered if the partnership fails. As such partnerships are the way of free software and free software is the future, I would not project a failure. If you end up with an interviewer that wants to work you to death and dispose of you, you might be better off somewhere else.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
That doesn't mean you must work overtime in terrible conditions for poor pay. But it does mean, if you decide to take your employment elsewhere, that you leave the company like a professional.
Treat your reputation like a valuable possession -- because it is.
Sorry, but walking out is a "screw-your-employer" gesture. It's about as unprofessional as you can get and, even worse, makes you look vindictive. Is that really the impression you want to leave? Do you really want to trade a good piece of your reputation for a few fleeting moments of take-this-job-and-shove-it jubilation?Be professional. Give two weeks notice.
Like most people, you are probably under an "at will" employment agreement that gives you the right to walk out whenever you please. Don't do it. Give the two weeks, which is universally considered reasonable and comes at no cost to your good reputation.
If you do resign, tender your resignation in writing. Make it simple, polite, and direct -- professional. Something like, "I am writing to inform you of my resignation, effective on date ." That's all you need. Do not
include a grand, barbed explanation of why you're leaving,
which is especially tempting when you feel that your employer has wronged you.
When your employer receives a stack of resignation letters on the same day, they'll get the point. No need for you to draw circles around it or point to it with big red arrows.
Remember: When you leave, do so in a way that makes it clear to your employer that they are losing somebody valuable. Be professional.
Easy, automatic testing for Perl.
The relationship between employer and employee is harmonious:-
they push,
you resist.
A blog I run for the wealth
Suddenly, the company realizes its in deep financial shit? Sometimes asking for more is like trying to extract back taxes from the homeless. If someone is living fat at your expense then do something about it. If everyone is in the same boat then what will this prove? Whining while others are in the same pain will get you no sympathy and may cause people to seriously dislike you. When Indian programmers are loosing work to Russians I think your decision is much harder than you think.
I'm sure my priorities will be different once I have kids. Yikes!
pooptruck
in one of his comedy bits about the English language, and the "beauty" of the word fuck(paraphrased from memory): It's the only word that is a noun, verb, adverb, and adjective all at the same time. This allows you to have sentences like: "Fuck the fucking fuckers."
I am dyslexia of borg - your ass will be laminated.
I joined a startup where things with the boss (read, cash cow) went sour from early on. The job market here was pretty bad, and we pretty much started looking for new jobs. The first guy who got caught looking for a new job was fired. On paper it was for insubordination, but it was made pretty clear to the rest of us what happened.
The rest of us were pretty pissed off, but we ended up not doing anything. The end result was that we pretty much left, one by one, and we all ended up being horribly bitter. It's still the only thing any of us can talk about when ever we run into each other.
Get out. Start something yourselves. And above all else, if some daddy's-little-rich-bitch who can't figure out email attachments is starting a tech company (or a tiny bit of her money is being used as leverage to get the loan to start it) and wants to hire you, tell her to go fuck herself.
It's a lot easier to dedicate the time and energy to searching for a job when you've got nothing else to do than when you're working 70 hours a week and miserable 24/7.
JoePyro "It's a joyless existence, being smushed" -Larry Wall
I'd hate to see you when you're feeling dramatic. Suck it up and go find a new job. The other members of the department should do the same. Disperse. It'll be better for all your careers and your (people) network will improve significantly.
I'm hourly, so if I work 60-70 HOURS I get paid for it, guess what, I never work more than 40
The gun is good - Zardoz
I did this (solo anyway) a couple of years ago. Got jerked around by an asshole VP one time too many, and said screw it. I decided to quit, slept like a baby that night, and put my 2 weeks notice in the next day. Took me almost a year to find another job that paid as well doing what I was good at, but it was still worth it. Be aware of the risks and costs, especially if you have a family to support. But don't ever let someone take advantage of you just because you are afraid of not being able to find a job.
I was let go too from a company whose new management was (still is) horrible. They had already laid off 15% of my department. I was so looking forward to being next. I really hated it there but didn't want to quit because it had been such a nice place the previous three years, I kept hoping it would get better. It never did. I continued to work my 41 hours a week (while others worked more to make up for the losses) and was finally let go. It was a very happy day indeed.
I spent the next 6 months self training and relaxing. I would send out a couple of resumes a week. One day I received a call from an old friend from work who offered me a new job making more than I made at the last place with a much better work environment.
Of course, I had plenty of savings, no debt (other than house) and was able to collect unemployment. If you are prepared, unemployment can be a very relaxing time.
If you don't like your job then just quit.
Don't make it a crusade. Let the other people
live their lives and make their own decisions.
Sounds like you just want stir up the shit
for shit sake.
BTW, if you rely on your job validation you are
always at the mercy of others. If you are not
appreciated who cares. If you don't like the
hours work less and see if you get fired.
This is somewhat of a lottery ticket mentality, that this great insight will come, and then you'll go make a bunch of money on it. Well, you might get lucky, but I'd suggest doing something a little more mundane. Look at the software that's out there, look at the needs of businesses out there and find something that people need that's not being provided. Custom development and systems integration are things that can provide a good solid job even if it's not always the sexiest work in the world.
Also, even if you have this wonderful idea, it doesn't matter if:
1) nobody else in the world wants it
2) you have nobody capable of selling it
Just remember that there are lots of people out there making good livings on pretty mundane ideas. If you can go out and write a software component that is useful to corporate developers, you can make good money on it. You sell the component for like $1000 which is a drop in the bucket to a big company, and give them a rather open license and source code. They help you fix your bugs, they are happy and you are happy. Sell a few hundred or a few thousand copies, and it becomes a rather lucrative business.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
For like 2 days. Then they'll just hire one of the millions that have been unemployed for more than a year at 8 bucks an hour and move on. Meanwhile, unless you have a job already lined up, you're going to have a hard time explaining: "I just left because I wasn't appreciated."
Heh. You must be Management.
Do what I did... I was getting the royal screw over at work... So, took advantage of our EAP program and got an appointment with a shrink... Told her I was so stressed, was not eating and made up some other stuff... Then bam, in just under an hour had the proper documentation to take short term mental leave (at full pay)... It was the best 16 weeks of company paid job searching I ever had....
Got a better job, more money and a manager that actually listens to me...
My old company was quickly swirling down the bowl. I and the rest of the coders were putting in bucketloads of OT and not getting paid for it (salaried). The owner felt that OT was "part of the job" and that if we couldn't "finish our daily tasks" in 8 hours, it was our fault we were putting in the OT.
Over the course of the next year, everyone quit and went on to greener pastures. The owner, responded by hiring Chinese immigrants on a work sponsor visa. This locked them into a three year contract where they had to work for baseline crappy pay (min. wage). The tech department is now 100% Indentured Servants and if they try to look or go elsewhere the owner pulls the sponsorship and has INS ship them back home.
Hope your situation turns out better.
-Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
Yep, we had a great walk out meeting over six months ago. We're still here.
I don't know about the US, but here in the UK we have employmee contracts, employment law and tribunals to go to.
My employment contract requires me to work 37.5 hours per week fulfilling the duties of my documented Job Specification, plus any other reasonable tasks when requested by my line management. If you refuse to do unreasonable tasks, and that includes working unreasonable hours with no over-time over a sustained period, and the company fires you, you are entitled to sue them for wrongful dismissal.
Check it out, and Good Luck !!
quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
Instead, decide where your breaking point would be, and discuss it reasonably ("if this happens, I'd really have to leave, and neither of us wants that to happen"). You are NOT making threats. Make this clear. Explain that you will keep your manager informed as the situation evolves, and that you will not leave without warning.
If you do draw the line for management and they step over it, you pretty much have to do what you said you would. This is a life lesson of sorts... if people believe that you won't make good on your promises, they will come to assume that you are full of s**t and should be treated as such.
If you tell your employer "if I have to work more than 50 hours in a week I am not going to answer the pager/cell/phone if you put me on call this weekend", then make damn sure you do what you said you would.
Worse case you get fired and collect unemployment... but no matter the outcome, you'll be taken seriously.
Not agreeing to sign up for these attractive terms may well get you the sack. Guess who I (and many other colleagues) don't have a lot of time for these days! The Amicus MSF Union has gained a lot of new members recently...
Get everyone in your group to do these things:
1. Look for another job before leaving.
2. Work 8 hours a day and then leave. If people line up at your door 15 minutes before you're schedule to leave, find something to do away from your office 30 minutes before you leave and go from there.
3. When you get an oncall opportunity, deflect it to the next day. Most situations can wait, regardless of what any body tells you. If they say they are losing productivity because of a down system, they are going from 150% productivity to 140% because of all of the OT everyone is putting in.
Believe in things of which no person has ever learned
I know a company that was having similar problems. They built the moral of the employees and got them behind the company to work those 60 hour weeks. They even got employees to "loan" the company some of their paychecks. The result? Over half of the employees got laid off within 6 months. The "loans" were never paid back. And the employees are still working 60+ hour weeks. I'm not sure a walk-out is going to solve your problem. Start looking for another job...
I also know of another company that again had, a similar problem. Instead of walking out, the core development team got together and started their own company. They sold their services to the company they left at a lower rate than it cost to employ them. The company they started has been around for 9 years now and is still growing.
http://www.askthevoid.com
Listen. It sucks everywhere. And, thanks to nice companies like IBM, which are still bringing in h1b's and exporting jobs (ironically, to the country the majority of h1b's come from), in addition to all brain-dump-schmucks who came to IT in search of $$$ in the late 90's, makes this the worst economic climate ever.
Simply, just slow down. It is much more effective to work together to slow down your progress, move back deadlines, work cohesively to slow down your production. Also, make it clear to upper management that 50-60 work weeks on a regular basis is more expensive, in terms of sick time / temps / shit morale, then hiring project oriented consultants to get over the 'hump'.
But, here's the real deal. In 2000, The entire 2nd level support team (which I was member of), quit in protest of a new prick manager, who wanted us to work weekends to do trivial tasks, like cleaning storage closets, etc.
2 years later: The prick still has a job. Everyone who quit found the economy quickly soured, and I am now making $10k less than at that job, with no benefits and mounting bills. And I'm luckier than some, because I am still in IT, but now I have to do shit work, because that's all there is. Shit, I used to manage the applications and builds for over 2000 machines spread over three companies in two offices, and now, I do moves/adds/changes.
Don't be stupid. Keep your job. Don't let management walk all over you, but don't even think about quitting. And, if everyone else does, stay. Show management you're loyal.
Its dog eat dog, more like god eat dog.
Seriously.
the last person i knew about who was trying to get unemployment was told that even though they qualified, the state didn't have enough money to pay all the claims, so she was tough luck Lucy...
The last time we did that, we all took jobs with another company. Don't walk out with nothing else lined up unless you really expect to get another job right away, and remember, you will get lower salary offers if you do not have a job and are looking for a new one.
So, what would happen if you didn't work the OT? The projects would be late, and that would reflect poorly on the management. Ultimately, it's their problem.
First off, realize that no matter how good you think that you are or how much you think the company depends on you, they will just hire someone else to replace you and move on. It is a very rare case that a company just can't go on without a few people. You may inconvenience them for a while but that is about it. Life will go on.
Secondly, don't leave without a plan. If you have plenty of savings and job prospects then go for it. It would be best to line up a new gig prior to leaving the old one though. If you don't have savings and alternatives then its time to buck up and deal with the current situation. If you haven't set aside some cash, kept your fixed expenses low, and networked like hell then you deserve to be stuck. Learn your lesson and make plans to leave your options open in the future. There is nothing worse than being stuck in a shit job because you can't afford to leave.
Third, be professional. If you do leave just tell your boss that you have other opportunities that you want to pursue and give 2 weeks notice. Work hard and be pleasant for those two weeks. You will never regret acting professionally and you leave plenty of options open. You may want to work at this company again some day. You may want to use somebody as a reference. At the very least, you want people to think well of you after you leave. You never know where you will run into these people again. If you make an ass of yourself it could hurt you in the future.
Four, I would leave on my own and not as a group. Why throw fuel on the fire. Nobody can fault you for leaving on your own to pursue something else. Leaving as a group implies that you are intentionally trying to hurt the company. Its up to you but I wouldn't do it.
Last, be constructive and do things because they are what is best for you, not because you want to hurt somebody else.
At another place, some friends of mine (most of the tech department) wanted to leave. They found a new place, got their manager hired there, and he brought the rest of them over. It worked very well.
Don't let people tell you there are no jobs now and you have to hold onto a crappy one. If you're good, there are jobs.
1) Hire a dozen of clever indian developers, they will cost the price of all the small US team,
2) Fire the whole US team shouting too much,
3) Money !
Hey, guys, this *is* capitalism !
le souvenir d'une certaine image n'est que le regret d'un certain instant (M.Proust)
There is no "company", a single malevolent entity that is treating you like dirt. There are a lot of individuals involved in the decisions to ask more hours of you, put you on call w/o extra compensation, etc.. Right now, one of your managers is probably talking to his superior, saying "well, I guess we could ask W and X to handle those few extra on-call hours... it sure sucks, but they seem to be okay with the increases so far, and someone has to do it. That should keep customers Y and Z with us, so we'll be okay on payroll through this quarter, at least."
This is bullshit. There very well is a company. It's the fictituous organization you're in that exists to benefit the guy on top. You're kept around as an employee because you earn that guy more money than you cost. If you cost more than you made him, then he would outsource you. It's as simple as that.
Do you know that the average income in the 2000 census is $65,000 for the U.S.? That means that for every guy making $25,000, there's another making $105,000. And chances are, he's making that $105,000 by underpaying the $25,000 guy. That's capitalism.
As soon as I figured that out, I started my own business. Today, a year later, I'm fairly successful. Made about $80,000 last year. It would have been more, but when I had to take on extra people to help out, I paid the consultants extremely well. (They usually scored 1/3rd of the contract amount.)
COBRA lasts 18 months.
You should get a document from your previous insurer stating that you have been insured and that you can't be turned down for existing conditions.
Was in a similar situation about a year ago. I was one for 4 team leaders that left a company together as a group for another company in the same industry. At the time we all felt that there was no way our current company could function well without us. We had all the knowledge and did most of the work (which was true) and that who ever they got to replace us would fail. Of course this wasn't true, sure it slowed them down for a bit having to let new people come up the learning curve, but they survived quite well.
A few thoughts to consider for your situation:
1) Why just quit? If you are going to quit you are going to need something new to do (start a new business, find a new job, win the lotto, etc) so why not work on this why you still have a job. In a sense build your new company or find a new job on your current employers dime. You'll get the same satisfaction for quitting later that you will now.
2) Consider legal action that your employer might take. Just because they don't have solid ground for a winnable case doesn't mean they won't pursue it, especially if you start a business with your own funds. How much would a 50,000$ in lawyer fees hurt them vs. how much it would it hurt you. If they are already going under that might not matter too much.
3) Consider how others in the company that are not part of the quitting group might react. I was very surprised how personally people took us leaving, even if it didn't really affect them in any way.
4) Consider burned bridges. You might not care too much about bridges back to your employer, but think about the bridges fires they may start for you. Will you still have a reputation to stand on with other prospective employers/customers.
5) Be sure of your co-quitters. Can you work with all of them if you did your own thing? All they people you can trust?
6) When you quit follow through with it. How will you react to 30% raise to stay at your current job?
Good luck to ya! If you are unhappy with your job and can find something better, Iâ(TM)d say go for it. I just wouldn't jump off a sinking ship until you have a new ship to land on.
...has IT starts to unionize:c le.asp?aid= 4549&iid=300
http://www.svbizink.com/headlines/arti
If you are unhappy where you work, execute a job search and leave when you have another job. In the mean time, work with your bosses to see if you cannot improve the situation. If you do work with them and improve it, you will be happy AND you will be more important. If it does not improve, at least you have ammunition when you are asked what steps you took before deciding to leave at an interview.
Under no circumstances should you talk about leaving or hint that you are actively seeking another job. Their first hint should be your 2 weeks notice. Even if you think you are being nice, you really risk only creating suspicion.
Jeoooorb!
You almost got it there. Try adding a few more Syllables or something....
http://www.homestarrunner.com/cantsayjob.html
-- Strong Bad
If you are leaving because you are being exploited, then great; do what you would normally do when not happy: either leave now or find another job first and then resign.
But what is the point of the mass exodus? Are you trying to hurt the company? If so, then I see that as a big problem.
Are you trying to go off and start a new business with said folks? Then I suggest you take a measured approach: develop a business plan, get some contacts and/or contracts, possibly have a couple leave now to focus on the business while the remainders stay at the current (paying) jobs until there is stability in the new place.
If you aren't trying to go somewhere else with the group, then I really don't see the point to the exodus.
A bunch of posts here say "don't leave 'cause that'll look bad in an interview". I don't buy that at all myself. However, if you lead an exodus with no real (business) purpose then that WOULD look bad for sure.
You've just described my life for the last 6 months.
We've got a skilled and effecient tech department, and a lax and inefficent sales department. They bring in pretty much nothing. They've been blaming it on the economy since forever, but when 10 of the last 11 decent sales were brought in by techs, that story ceases to hold water.
This is bad enough, but upper management listens to the sales idiots, and blame us for the lack of revenue! Like we can just magically make money if nothing is being sold.
My division is one of the worst hit. Sales underbids programming contracts massively, in order to make the sale, and leaves us holding the bucket, forced to try and make things happen with no resources. And when we fail to pull it off, its OUR fault.
The idiots bid a VB support contract for a legacy application, written in spagetti code by some lunatic, for a group of java, C, and PhP developers, and THEN refused to lay out for ANY development software. Normally I get annoyed with people who cry about having no development software, but VB? That crap depends on the tools. On top of that, we had a deadline so short it was stupid. It was a lose lose job.
It's an ugly situation. We've all got resumes out, but it's not a great time to be looking, especially here. We've almost walked out a couple of times, but that whole, "No job" thing is worrisome.
Sigh. Well, that was depressing.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
I agree, it's amazing that people are voting for this guy after his sending troops off to war for ficticious reasons which will increase terrorism, driving the economy into a train-wreck, and increasing spending to Reaganite levels, which serves to cripple government to the point that the next guys coming in office won't be able fund social programs. They are spending this much on purpose, the goal is destroy all social programs while benefitting the rich. The next guys coming in won't have a choice but to raise taxes even more, and spend the money on "defense" (AKA gravy train for large corporations) which is bigger than the 2nd largest military 10 times over. All that money isn't spent on protecting us, folks.
Than one who quits a job without having another one lined up first.
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
You can bet if I quit in those sort of circumstances, I'd be suing
Spoken like a true American!
Seriously though, you can't expect management to be telepathic... to sense your displeasure and its causes. If you quit without first communicating your concerns to management, I'd say your lawsuit would be a waste of time.
Sure management should already know what the problem is, but that is because you should have already told them.
Don't expect much sympathy from the legal system if you are part of the problem.
I think this is still called a strike. Sounds like you are forming a Union. Nothing new here, factory workers and dock workers and all kinds of people have been doing this for a long time.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human.
A: The company hit a very rough time and it became apparent that there was little or no hope of a recovery. I felt it better to leave when I did than to stick it out to the bitter end.
Remember we're talking here about a situation where a large proportion of the income generating part of the company (I often wonder why sales people aren't listed as cost centre) are leaving at the same time. The odds are that that company is going to die fast and hard, anyone who stays on board is going to be dragged down with it. There's no shame or bad rep in taking to the life boats when the ship is sinking.
On the more general point of loyalty, that a few other people have mentioned. I'm prepared to be as loyal to my employer as they are to me. If they're good to me when times are good then I'll be good to them when times are bad. If they (to take an example from one of my previous employers, a certain multinational services and software group) claim there's no money available to pay employee bonuses in April but then give all managers a big bonus in June then they've just shot any chance of loyalty from me. And to take anohter example, if I'm doing a job then I expect a remuneration package comensurate to that post. If I'm temporarily covering a post whilst they recruit someone and am told that I don't have the relevant skill set to fill that post permanently so cannot apply, then I don't expect to have to train the person they do hire who is on a higher salary than me. In both cases I left the comapany shortly after the events.
Stephen
"Don't write down to your readers, the only people less intelligent than you can't read" - Sign on Newspaper Office Wall
Quit if you hate it. Or find another job. In either case, quit bitching that you have to, God forbid, work overtime.
... or west coast, then six figures is about like 50K in the rest of the country when you consider cost of living expenses.
If things suck this bad, I would take this path (and I have... trust me, for 3 months last year when my whole group was in danger of getting fired, we went through Hell together):
:-).
- Keep working, but slow it down. Do what you *have* to do, but plan on making your exit and divorce any emotional connections you have to your work. Conserve energy for *you*. THis applies to your personal life too... make the most of any time you are not at work, and leave work issues *there*.
- Work on your resumes. Critique each others resumes. Get everyone working part-time on calling recruiters, etc. Use each other as references/referrals on these things, it helps.
- Work on your bankable skills. Refresh stuff you knew once, but haven't done in years. Pool money to buy up books on the latest and greatest trends, and cram! You're going to be out in the market, you need to be sharp!
- Have training sessions. Seriously, we did this. We reserved meeting rooms with whiteboards and trained each other for 1-2 hour sessions on stuff some of us knew solidly. I taught many of my co-workers J2EE over a couple lunch sessions; others taught CORBA programming, Unix essentials, etc. You can even do these over your lunch hours and not feel at all like you're 'cheating' the company... it's your time, you are just taking advantage of some of the facilities that aren't being used anyway
There is a lot you can do. Working on business plan ideas is good too, although that is *so* difficult, the better course of action is to seek an 'investor' who already *has* an idea and just needs people to make it happen. They are definately out there, consult with local business groups to put out feelers on that.
It's a strange world -- let's keep it that way
This article which, based on the discussion content was clearly authored in 1999, only just now got posted on /. What happened?
-- "In order to have power, I must be taken seriously." -Mojo Jojo
Stop handing in your TPS reports.
-- taking over the world, we are.
No wonder that company failed. When they have a policy of keeping all the critical data on one laptop, without backups, you gotta worry. Let alone being fired, what would have happend if your laptop was stolen or died?
I missed a similar situation by mere weeks. I left the company for a better job offer, but I was privy to the scheme before I left.
Weeks later, three core people left, started their own consulting firm, and contracted with the employer to do their old jobs on a consulting basis! They somehow sold managment on the idea that it would be cheaper for the company to pay them as consultants than the pay them as employees. The consulting business has blossomed with new clients, and the old employer is in a well-publicized chapter 11.
These guys won, and are still doing well, but this started in late 1998-early 1999 at the height of the bubble. They managed to create solid customer releationships that they have built a solid business on.
Look before you leap, and make sure you know where you are going to land.
I am not your blowing wind, I am the lightning.
It's just usually one sided.
I'm working in a fricking sinking ship right now. Have been for a while. If I get a decent offer, I'm gone tomorrow.
The thing is, I am the kind of person who really commits to a job. It takes a lot to push me to the point where I'm sitting right now.
The amount of treacherous, underhanded, unpleasant, dishonest shit that's come down the pipe lately...I'll be happy to leave them in the lurch. Thank god I didn't sign a non-compete.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
Do you know that the average income in the 2000 census is $65,000 for the U.S.? That means that for every guy making $25,000, there's another making $105,000. And chances are, he's making that $105,000 by underpaying the $25,000 guy. That's capitalism.
Actually, it's more like, for every 100 guys making $25,000, there's one guy making $4,000,000 by underpaying those 100 guys.
I've got the same advice as everybody else, but the fact that many people actually tell the same story is also valuable.
Of course share your thoughts with your boss...
I (we) spoke twice to the same boss (on different occations, for different reasons), telling him that I had a problem with something. Both times I did intend to quit if a reasonable solution was not found - this was clear and honest. Both times we found a good solutions. The relationsship to my boss was not at all getting worse from this.
In conclusion: be follow the golden rule, and be honest
1) Tell them you are unsatisfied - they deserve to know.
2) Do not threaten them with anything you cant or do not intend to actually do.
Many moons ago (pre-Bubble), when I was fairly in need of work, I went to Aquent (then known as MacTemps).
They pimped me out here and there, but my worst experience was working as a bench/field tech at a computer sales/service place in New Jersey, just after the entire service department walked out after the department head had a falling out with the owner.
I worked there for a month, and they were in complete panic mode. It was a mess, nobody had any idea what was going on. Just about every other day I had to deal with customers irate over one thing or another that I had nothing to do with except for being the nearest target.
Also, after a little while there I came to see the ex-employees' point: the owner well and truly WAS a right bastard, and a cheap SOB, too. He treated everyone like slaves, but he and his trophy wife who also "worked" there were seldom around-- too busy tooling around in their his and hers Mercedes. Most of the time when we needed an answer to something that onoly he could provide, he was nowhere to be found.
The owner and the new service department head liked my work (read: my ability to tolerate abuse from customers) and wanted to hire me, but the owner wanted do so in a way that they would weasel out of having to pay the buyout fee to MacTemps. I flatly refused, not wanting to bite the hand that fed me, and because I really did not want to continue working in that environment-- regardless of how badly I needed the money.
I left, and shortly thereafter got a really great temp gig that led to full-time employment.
Specific sorts of professionals are exempt, and management is exempt. There's a special stipulation with regards to computer professionals, but it mandates that you must either be in management, or making more than $27.63 an hour (from the last time I looked at the regs).
So, if you're making in excess of $57k/year, and the majority of your work is self directed (or you are in management) then you're somewhat screwed.
State labor laws are also important here- State law cannot weaken the federal law ( if your employer falls under it) but it can make it stronger with more requirements. Check with your State wages and dues/labor/workforce department. They will also come in and investigate if you so desire, and can mandate that employers pay up to 2 years of back wages if they are found to have you wrongfully exempted.
have fun. it's never easy.
EOM
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a lawyer and my comments are for entertainment purposes only. Following any of my advice or acting on my comments can lead to loss of employment, litigation, loss of sexual prowess and proof that you cannot think for yourself. Any such proof can lead to your confinement to a couch where you'll be compelled to watch propaganda and opinions disguised as factual news.
1. Get a job offer in writing before you even consider hinting to anyone else at work that you are leaving.
2. Encouraging others to leave their jobs can potentially lead to a lawsuit from your employer and possibly even those who meet with long-term unemployment due to your advice/encouragement.
3. Perform this test: put your finger in a glass of water and then quickly pull it out. You are as indispensable to the company as the hole that filled up unless your departure directly causes a bankruptcy.
4. Your actions might punish the wrong people. If you and your buddies leave, other remaining employees who may have had nothing to do with your frustrations could suffer a LOT more than the person/people you are targetting (assuming you're not trying to hurt the feelings of a company because that would be stupid--removing or changing the behavior of specific people would be smarter).
5. If you are bringing down the morale of other employees by whining constantly instead of actively trying to fix the problems you dislike, then you should be fired. Go ahead and quit, the company will be better off without you.
Some alternatives to quitting:
Adhoc overtime: "No, I have prior commitments so I cannot stay tonight. If you want, I can come in very early tomorrow/Monday morning to meet with you and get a jump start. Is 6am OK? No? OK 9am it is then." Come up with every plausible reason to chat with or involve the person responsible for making up the stupid deadline during off hours and portray them of not being good team players if they start to complain. Show sincere interest in how they come up with deliverables and deadlines--expose them if they are pulling things out of their ass.
Feeling appreciated: isn't in your employment agreement and probably not even mentioned when they offered you your job. Grow up and stop craving it at work. How YOU feel inside is up to you and not others. But you should leverage your accomplishments to go after things others can give you like well-deserved salary raises, bonuses, written recognitions/praise you can file away for later use, etc. These are worth a lot more than a cheesy pat on the back that compells an emotion you can produce on your own.
Unreasonable deadlines: "I'm sorry but I can't finish that on time without changing the deliverables or schedule and I don't know anyone else who can. Since I'm well-above average in productivity, lets find out how exactly the person who came up with the plan determined that this timeline is feasible. Either he knows something we don't or we need to improve the way deadlines are being determined or hire more resources."
Constant overtime: is a sign of mismanagement. Find out if laws in your state require your employer to compensate you. You'd be surprised. Document every minute you work overtime as well as what you produce. This can come in handy later.
Above all: SHOW MANAGEMENT THAT CHANGES WILL INCREASE REVENUES OR REDUCE COSTS WITHOUT INCURRING RISKS. They'll listen if you use language they understand to offer specific solutions to the root causes of the frustrations you are experiencing.
"unemployment" means "not employed", not collecting any kind of insurance. How the parent post got marked informative is beyond me.
... makes you work 50-60 hour weeks and generally treats you like dirt, you should also gather the best minds and organize a mass expodus. Loyalty is good, undeserved loyalty is stupid. Consider that it doesn't have to be based on self-interest, just appreciation of whatever/whoever you are loyal to and there is no need for exceptions.
Although I can't address an en-masse departure, I recently left my job and couldn't be happier with how it ended up. You could do it, too.
My situation was similar to what the poster described- company tanking, workhours skyrocketing, and managers' heads migrating up their asses as unstoppably as tectonic motion. Even with all that, the decision to leave was TOUGH, especially "with the current job market." (everyone's favorite buzzphrase)
I'll spare the drama, but suffice it to say the camel's back finally broke and I simply packed up my shit and walked out. It was weird, almost surreal, but despite the enormous risk I intuitively knew I couldn't spend another day under that employer's stunning incompetence. And it's not even that I'm some young kid with no obligations. I'm mid-30ish, was right in the middle of buying a house, had a dog, yada yada...
So I left, and couldn't have been happier with how it turned out. After 'just' 2 rather unsettling months, I was picked up by another company: better pay, better people, reasonable hours, and actaully making a profit. I attribute my relatively quick pickup partly to dumb luck, but also (IMHO) a great education and experience.
Vital: for everyone that says education doesn't matter, think again. Paper opens doors. Get those degrees AND be able to show you have more than book smarts.
Moral of the story: it's tough to leave, but *absolutely* possible to land on your feet, even better than before. But it takes balls; the safe bet is always with staying with the status quo.
Sheesh. This is precisely the point of labor unions that too many here seem to hold such low regard for...or worse, state that they are no longer relevant or needed. Bullshit!
Worker exploitation (in the form of demanding long, nasty hours, poor compensation, no job security, etc) is precisely why unions are STILL needed every bit as much as they used to. Temp workers should unionize. Tech workers should unionize. This gives you exactly what the scenario depicts. Your department is getting screwed, you are getting screwed, so you collectively walk off the job to force reason back into the heads of management. You are just better protected by unions under the walk-out scenario, etc, than by just a collective bunch of yahoos deciding to leave. The latter has a higher chance of blowing up in your face while the former provides you more leverage and some protection from loss-of-pay during the walk-out (clue train note: this is called a "strick" and it is classic union tactic that frickin' WORKS).
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
They treat you like sh*t. That's not good. But it's no reason start some sort of peasant revolt.
The the thing to do is to go out on your own and line up a new job and then simply quit to take this new and better opportunity. No whining, no negativity, no stigma.
Sometimes rancor is unavoidable but purposely conspiring with other employees to deal some sort of a death blow to your employer is beyond the pale. Notwithstanding all the bullsh*t you have put up with you do owe the company that you are working for some duty of loyalty. That doesn't mean you aren't free to find a better situation. It _does_ mean that sitting around the company facility on company time plotting its downfall is simply wrong.
Even if you don't think it's wrong exercise some machiavellian discretion. Do you really want to be known as a sh*t disturber and rabble rouser?
I personally stay well away from all the hand wringers and malcontents at work. If there is bullsh*t going on I can see it on my own without listening to their whining. If the problem looks like its not going to go away or perhaps even get worse I can take quiet steps to find a new job. What I am not going to do is take the whole crew into my confidence and perhaps end up getting axed when the whole thing blows up before I have set up a new gig.
Quit now! make a really big deal out of it, scream and cry and yell and bitch and moan! make a big jerry maguire-esqe scene and yell "who's coming with me?!" as you're escorted to the door.
From there, I suggest you go to ask.slashdot.org (while you can still afford to pay your ISP) and ask "How do I find a job in IT even though demand is so low?"
Short answer: quitcherbitchin. You've got a job, be thankful.
Medium sized answer: If you want to organize your co-workers to do something productive, You've got better odds at starting a circle jerk. Pulling a giant walk out isn't going to accomplish anything more than making you feel good about yourself for a week or so. After that, you're going to come to the quick realization that your skills, no matter how good you may think they are, aren't in demand. The IT market is horrid, and odds are you'll end up working in a shop that's just as bad, for less money. Be prepared to lose out on jobs to people that have double your education, triple your experience, and are willing to work for 10k a year less than you.
(would you like to look at the stack or job applications I've got? We've bachelors, masters, and a handful of PhD's who want an $8.60/hr p/t lab job.)
Grab a newspaper, bulk print your resume, start looking hard, and give your two weeks notice like the rest of the world. The credits will not roll and you will not live happily ever after by staging a walkout.
There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
The same can be said about geeks. I belong to a few mailing lists that have general discussions about Linux and you would be surprised at how naive a number of PhD carrying people there are on the list.
A few knew nothing about depreciating the value of a capital expense over the course of a few years. One was thinking about buying a lower end laptop to save some money for his small consulting firm, when he really should have talked to his accountant about depreciating the cost and saving money over the long-haul with taxes.
Several others knew nothing about the ways that businesses make decisions and that it isn't always about what might be right or could 'possibly' lead to 'potential' revenue. Sometimes business decisions are made for the longterm viability of a corporation, even if that decision appears, on the surface, to just be something to piss everyone off.
The problem with some professional managers with business degrees is that they might now really know when they are outside of their element. They might not know when they should let a department head and his/her team make a decision. Sometimes those things work out, sometimes they don't.
However, if you ignore the skills that someone could bring to a company simply because they "know nothing" since they have a business management degree then you would only be hurting your company, since you wouldn't have the knowledge of which business decisions have worked in the past, work only in theory and are known to work like gangbusters.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
Spelling correction:
(clue train note: this is called a "strick" and it is classic union tactic that frickin' WORKS). should be (clue train note: this is called a "strike" and it is classic union tactic that frickin' WORKS).
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
Just for funny info for you Americans...
In Sweden, if you have a regular employment, neither you nor your employer can cancel it quicker than in three (3) months. It would actually be illegal to employ someone on other premises. Cool, isnt it?
then talk to the management to set up a support deal. This is an opportunity, not a problem...
Oh well, what the hell...
And you can all sing together:
My nine to fives are over, I'll be a ramblin' rover
Contentment be my wages and delight my tax and tithe
And my heart will mind the ledger, no more the hours by measure
And to rise and greet the morning, come what may I will be blithe
--
My Nine to Fives Are Over
(Charlie Cares, © 2000)
I was in the same boat. Loved my job an the people I work with were great in my group. Then they hired VP who was just an ass. Small tech company with boxed software 100 people.
Results:
-Company lost it's entire quarterly profit.
-We were all highly satisfied.
-I went on to better things.
-The company folded 2 years later.
-Felt even more justified.
-Wound up getting hired years later by my replacement and got some respect for knowing when to quit.
-I'd do it all over again.
100% agree
3.243F6A8885A308D313
Since most people these days save nothing and live paycheck to paycheck, self-respect comes in a distant second behind money.
You can go an flip burgers, but that won't pay your $1,200 mortgage payment.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
I changed careers.
I walked out of an OSHA/EPA type job after 8 years. Typical issues, corruption, bribery, etc.
Best move I ever did.
So on the next day I tried to decide what I wanted to do. I realized I wasn't really qualified to do anything else (my whole professional career revolved around EPA type work) so I looked into doing something I *wanted* to do.
So I goofed off for a year, did odd jobs to pay the bills, sold some old stuff, etc, and landed a job doing what I really wanted to do, and 4 years later I am much happier for it.
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
This is an interesting theory, and in some cases, where management is intelligent, it can work. In those situations where management is interested in communicating, they engage the employees by telling them in advance why they are in a short term crisis, why and how it will be solved, so that it doesn't appear to be crap falling on them from the sky.
I have personally been through a situation where I was "management", hired to modernize an engineering organization, but did not wield "executive" power, and disagreed with the "executive" decision to (illegally) overwork the staff. I left after stating my reasons before it went to hell. I was told "this is the way our industry works", and advised that If I wasn't willing to do 80 hours a week, I didn't belong.
After I departed, the "management" left knew that they would have a high attrition rate, and they cajoled (but you signed the loyalty oath), threatened (you'll never work in this industry again, and you know we can make that stick), and bribed (look at the bonus!) the employees to stay to the end of the project...Then, as the project neared completion, and before they bribes were contractually due to be paid they started firing the people who had gone through hell, and pressured others to leave by obliquely letting them know they were next.
And before you say "yeah, but this was probably a bunch of losers who made a crappy product, so they were fired for failing", this was the #1 selling product for the top company in a very prominent (one of the few growing in tech nowadays) industry upon release.
The moral of this story is that there is no "one size fits all" answer. Sometimes (often) management would just as likely to tell you "You're fired" for communicating on them, so when you find the exception, nurture it and enjoy it while it lasts.
We've recently consolidated operational components from different parts of our business. This meant relocation of facilities and staff to the HQ area (about 800 miles away.)
The staff in the area to be relocated decided that the parent company couldn't live without their services during the transition and played the following game:
1. We'll move.
2. We won't move, but we will provide excellent documenation and help transition to the folks at HQ.
3. We won't provide any docs.
4. We're quitting now before the transition, but our services are available on a per-hour basis at a rate of 5x our current salaries.
Management felt that they had been deceived and that the team was jerking them around. As a result management decided to tell the team to take a long walk off a short pier.
The HQ team has had to scramble to try to understand the infrastructure and architecture at the remote location, but all in all the transition has gone fairly well.
It surely could have gone more smoothly with the assistance of the remote team, but they made their bed.
I believe it was DeGalle who said something to the effect of "The graveyards are full of indespensible men."
Food for thought. Don't let them exploit you, don't exploit them. Look for a positive resolution to the problems.
You might get screwed, but at least it won't hurt when you look in the mirror while shaving. You've got to live with the choices that you make.
Respectfully,
Anomaly
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
You get sued for breach of your employment contract. That's what happens. Do you really think a company will just let you walk out and ignore it? Their loss of profits because of your lack of productivity is something they can sue you for in court. The only way around this is a unionized strike. You as a worker on your own have no right to strike.
P.S. The jurisdiction here is Germany where no employment happens without a contract. The lack thereof was quite an adjustment when I came to the US.
"Light is faster than sound." - "Is that why people tend to look bright until you hear them speak?"
They observed that often working-relationships outlived failed companies, and that groups of people would continue to come together again to work with each other in the future.
Their conclusions -- great loyalty, but to peers.
The JBoss case looks the same... great loyalty to Dain less to JB Grp.
You are right: that's the way to go about solving problems in the workplace. Getting results that way might not be so easy. I have some experience along those lines.
Managers have to juggle constantly to satisfy a number of stakeholders: the board, the shareholders, the customers, and the employees. It's no coincidence that I list employees last; sadly in these times the employees often get the short end of the deal. Not because management is unfeeling or because they don't care about employees, but it is felt that the employees can be pushed the most without breaking. Piss a client off and he'll take his business elsewhere. Disappoint the stockholders and they'll dump the stock or ask all sorts of nasty questions at the Stockholders' Meeting. But piss of your employees and they'll just keep going. Sure they'll grumble, but they won't quit on you unless you really go too far.
Also, some managers do not like you to bring them trouble. Oh they like feedback and all, but if you're the only one to come to them to "Find out what the problems of the company are, and talk about how the company is dealing with them", they might label you as "the troublesome one". You may even find that ephitet duly noted in your personnel file (oh yes...) Instead of just doing your work, you come to them to tell them how to do their work, with a bunch of issues that frankly are a big headache. Well, that depends on your boss, and how you approach him. Still, the easiest (and therefor the most common) reply would be "Just do your job like everyone else".
Getting no results from your boss, you decide to see his boss. Your problems already start even before you enter his door. For one, your boss will probably be pissed for going over his head. Managers don't like it when their people speak with their supervisors. Second, your manager's boss will already be on a personal level with your manager. He probably works intensively with him on a day-to-day basis, whereas you are just an entry on the budget sheets. If your manager has reported that everything's fine, he might think you're exaggerating and wasting his time. Then again, if you keep running into a blank wall like this, you could consider switching departments rather than quitting.
I do realise I paint a bleak picture here. Sure, there are good companies with good management, but my guess is that the people considering to quit en masse are not working for one of them.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Some might call unions "relics" of the 19th century, that they are resistant to change (both good and bad) and major drain on resources. I actually wouldn't argue with you there.
BUT, the current tech-worker situation has a lot of parallels of *why* unions were created in the first place. It's to prevent management from rolling over everybody, and to protect the workers (though sometimes it protects the wrong ones). One person has little bargaining power (unless they're the only ones that know the admin passwords). But a couple hundred of people like you, and it will get the company's attention.
I personally dream of the day where unions will be as professional, if not more, than management in coming up with solutions to hard problems. Nowadays, unions all seem to be money grubbing, commie organizations, when really, that's just the union stewards/presidents hijacking the real agenda, which is the well-being of the workers AND the company.
I'm not saying that unions are perfect in all situations, but there is such a thing as professional unions (Nurses, teachers, engineers that work at my plant).
I don't think unemployment or accepting the current situation are the only options.
From the main article: You get the feeling that the company is just going to take advantage of you no matter how and what happens. (emphasis added)
Have you, as a group, gotten together with your supervisor and his boss (and possibly his boss's boss) and told them that you're unhappy with the situation? Unions don't walk out first and then tell their demands. A strike really is a last resort. Long before you even mention that to your boss, sit down and tell him what's bugging you, and see what they can do for you.
A lot of times you can get at least some of the more onerous crap reduced. Probably there won't be a raise, and there won't be monetary compensation for on-call time. But there could be added vacation time or something like that. There may be other informal things they could do.
It sucks when a good job gets worse, but this happens in a downturn. But that's gonna happen, because your boss's job also got worse. There's more sh*t raining down on him from above (and those above usually either have creditors, shareholders, or auditors raining it down on them). If you really want another job, then follow the time-honored approach of finding your new job before leaving your old one (because it works a lot better). Unless you've got a stockpile of money and want to take a vacation for a while. But be sure to start back into the job hunt a LONG time (at least 6 months) before that runs out, or be prepared to work at McDonalds/Kinkos/WalMart/temp-agency for a while to make ends meet.
Seriously. Don't let your boss think things are ok and then suddenly walk out. And don't fall into the trap of thinking that you're LUCKY to have a job, but don't just throw a job away because you're angry.
if ($it != $onething) {$it = $another;}
You should talk to your management first about how you feel you are being treated. But above all else don't say that if they don't give you what you want that you'll leave, unless you are really willing to. After you make an ultimatum like that, the company will see you as being totally unloyal. They may give you what you requested, but they will be looking for ways to get rid of you.
Communication (and the understanding that comes with it) really is the key to dealing with most situations that leave you pissed off.
Every single company I have ever worked for in the IT industry, going back over about a decade now, has had asshole management. Every single one has had groups of pissed of grunts (or groups of lower mgmt as I progressed). I finally reached the point where I stopped and wondered what the common link was?
People who work in IT are, now the gold diggers are gone, generally slightly obsessive, lacking in social skills, nerd types.
The managers have next-to no social skills. The grunts have next-to no social skills. Add in to that the grunts used to be treated like gold dust and have entitlement complexes while the management hated that and are now getting their revenge.
The thing is, you can't change the management. Now the economy is tanked, they know you have no leverage over them. You can get together and talk about mass walkouts but the reality is, unless everyone goes, they can hire new and retrain - and probably for less than they're paying you. And you know that at least one of your indignant group will buckle for the job security. Walkouts are a nice dream for taking the power back but they're just that. There goes your one form of leverage.
So, if you can't change them, what can you change? Well, there's the other side of the equation. If shit ain't going to get better, it's probably time to learn to deal with shit.
Find a good anger management book. It'll help you understand that anger is just stress manifesting with an anger trigger. Turning stress in to anger just leaves you pissed off and stressed. It'll help you learn to rephrase situations for yourself so you can dissipate that stress better.
One of the main things they'll talk about is the fallacy of entitlement. The notion of "should"s. You're probably reading this thinking, "Why should I have to be the one to change?!" Simple question for you: Honestly now, is there anything you can do to get them to change? Try thinking of three situations in your life where you've been yelled at and told you "should" change and have actually done so - do you think it'll suddenly work for your managers? If you can't get them to change, do you really want to just stay in the same stressful, unhappy situation?
Get a book, take a class, whatever, on anger management. It'll teach you to dissipate the anger so the next thing that comes up doesn't seem quite so bad. Once you're chilled, you might find better ways to get the change you want. Even if you don't, at least the fucked up job will be more tolerable.
We were the engineering team for a small dot com type company. We believed the managment wasn't headed in the right direction.
So we started our own company. It has been rough, like it has for any tech company in 2001-2002. But we're still here, and things are now looking better.
If you really respect your mangement, you'll probably work better, and be more productive.
So as long as you can line up some customers, I'd say do it.
Yeah, unemployment sucks. I've got a lot of experience and can (and have) adapted to many different environments and companies. I'd love to work 60 hour weeks and have too much to do. It sure beats sitting at home wondering how I'm going to pay the rent next month and deciding which bills I'm going to pay.
In this market your job is too valuable. Keep it.
Just like people should have savings to tide them over rough times, shouldn't companies? Why should an employee have to pay with his time when the company didn't see problems coming or plan for a downturn?
The company owes the employee a decent management team that doesn't run the company into the ground. If they can't hold up their end, all bets are off.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The situation you described matches exactly what happened in the company I worked for 4 years ago. Our group was called the "Technology Division" and we provided 100% of the technology services to the whole company (Brazilian branch of a multinational bank). For years life was good. We were 7 well-respected, well-payed professionals. Then suddenly we were 4 overworked, underpayed geeks. The 4 of us got together and 3 of us decided to walk - the 4th was afraid to take the risk. We opened our consulting company and the bank became our first client. We were very happy for 3 years after that. We were still overworked, not as much underpayed but we had a lot more freedom. These days the situation is not a bed of roses, though. The bank finally went over (well, almost) and we don't get nearly as much contracts from them any longer. Through the years we have put together a nice client roster, though. We are still struggling but our heads are above the water line. We now have 4 employees, we own the building where we work and have put together a nice, lean technology consulting company. Most of all: it's been a lot of fun!
There is no "company", a single malevolent entity that is treating you like dirt.
No, but there sure is a small circle of executives who make those tough decisions while on the way to the golf club in their 7 series BMW for a nice lobster dinner. The company I work for just cut vacation. I get 1 week a year now. I also have to take it before the fiscal year end on 9/1. So there's now no time to accrue vacation before christmas. How nice. And those altruistic beings who are just looking out for the company? Let's see how quick they are to give back that benefit once the economy turns around.
There are a lot of individuals involved in the decisions to ask more hours of you, put you on call w/o extra compensation, etc.. Right now, one of your managers is probably talking to his superior, saying "well, I guess we could ask W and X to handle those few extra on-call hours... it sure sucks, but they seem to be okay with the increases so far, and someone has to do it. That should keep customers Y and Z with us, so we'll be okay on payroll through this quarter, at least."
Talk about a major case of rose colored glasses. When these wonderful managers mismanage the company into the ground, then ask me to clean up their mess, should I?
You have to ASSUME that everyone is on your side from the very beginning, and start talking to your manager, their manager, etc.. Let them know that you and the other grunts are starting to give under the strain. Find out what the problems of the company are, and talk about how the company is dealing with them.
Have you ever had a paycheck bounce? I have. Have you ever had your employer siezed by the IRS for failure to pay payroll taxes? I have. Have you ever been promised bonueses on eight separate occaisions and received a fraction on one only once? I have. Have you ever been fired because your manager thought you were better than him? I have. Have you ever gotten in trouble for not predicting the future or reading someone's mind? I have. Have you ever predicted a project's failure months and millions of dollars in advance? I have.
Have you ever been warned before your employer goes out of business? I never have.
Employers are not on your side. Ever. There are only two possibilities. If it's a private company, they're on the owner's side. If it's a public company, they're on the shareholder's side. Never yours. You are a commodity to be exploited however possible, no matter what the HR propaganda says.
Instead, decide where your breaking point would be, and discuss it reasonably ("if this happens, I'd really have to leave, and neither of us wants that to happen"). You are NOT making threats. Make this clear. Explain that you will keep your manager informed as the situation evolves, and that you will not leave without warning.
And you'll be the first to be laid off. Employers want sheep. If you want to keep your job, act like one. Tell them nothing because they're certainly not volunteering any information. If you don't like your job, find another one. But never let them know you're looking. Otherwise, they'll remove you before you have the next job lined up.
Like it or not, you're in a business relationship with your employer. One in which you're at an extreme disadvantage. If your employer wants to cut your benefits, they simply say, "Well, things are tight, so we're zapping vacation this year." Can you imagine what would happen if you did that? "Well boss, you've been working me harder so I'm going to take an extra week of vacation this year." After the laughter subsides, they'll replace you.
The work culture in this country sucks. And it's time for a change.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
One important thing to note is the group who left JBoss (I think they're called Core Something or other now) started their own company.
I've read tons of post that complain about the recession, and how you'd be screwing yourself out of a job. That's defeatist thinking from the start. If the only way you can imagine yourself making a living is by finding some company to hire you, than you will more often than not one of the beleagured and put upon.
Start a company, write a book, change professions... Join a commune, join peace corps, join geek corps...
There will be a recession as long as people are not sufficiently motivated to go out and make a change for themselves. Industrialized nations produce far more output than is necessary for the sustenance of their citizens. Booms happen when there is a high rate of transfer/churn of the money that does exist. Conversely, busts happen, when everyone freezes up, gets scared, and stops taking the risks necessary to keep things smoothly flowing.
I realize that some or all of the options I mentioned may not be possible for YOU, but if you aren't willing to look for other options at all, than your complaints will fall on deaf ears.
Note: This economics mentioned here are grossly oversimplified, but that doesn't make them untrue...
...oh that's right. We're too smart for organizing into labor unions. What was I THINKING about?
jhw
Homer Simpson
"In a hierarchy every employee will rise to his level of incompetence". The Peter Principle
I called all the department heads, and said "If person X is fired, we will lose the rest of the department. These three people will tell you so to your face if you ask them, these ten people will say "oh, please don't fire X" while sending out resumes in every direction, and the remaining three are the only easily replaceable people you've got."
The next day (it was a saturday) the CEO called three people out of the blue and said "What would you do if X were let go?" and they all said "If you are telling me X is gone, I will come in to clean out my desk Monday."
Person X is still working here & is the CIO now.
But you can't be bluffing or it won't work.
This is very true, and particularly true if you live in a second or third tier city where the community of IT Directors/CIOs and higher-level IT opportunities is limited. If you should *succeed* at crippling a business for a period of time, you could get blacklisted as a troublemaker and have difficulty finding a job or getting promitions if you do find a job.
I also wonder if a particularly successful fscking of an IT infrastructure couldn't put you at some risk for a lawsuit claiming sabotage. Even if it didn't have a chance of success, you're unemployed and having to defend yourself in a civil suit. That $25k in savings will disappear in a blink just getting a bogus suit dismissed, one with a shade of merit? Hello, homelessness!
My personal "extreme quitting" plan would be to submit a letter to my boss outlining my reasons for leaving, as well as outlining my availability on a contract basis to provide continuity on these NON-NEGOTIABLE terms:
1) Work will be billed at a rate of $200 per hour with a four hour per day minimum, including telephone consultation, travel and offsite work.
2) All expenses, including meals, parking, travel, supplies and equipment required will be billed and provided by the vendors of my choosing. I will seek approval for all purchases over $500 and all materials will become the company's property when my consulting term is over.
3) The company will indemnify me against any damage or losses resulting during my contractual employment.
4) An up-front non-refundable retainer of $5000, payable in cashier's check or cash ONLY, is required before any work, including telephone consultation, will take place. The first 25 billable hours will be subtracted from this retainer.
5) Payment for all hours is due via cash or cashier's check on the Friday of each week before any further work will be performed.
This prevents them from saying you fucked them to harm them and won't help, you have a better basis for arguing you didn't like the job/pay/whatever. The frequent cash payment requirements keep them honest and from getting work and just not paying, important if there's financial problems with the company or if they just have no choice.
Of course in my personal fantasy I get a call from my ex-boss 72 hours later saying they agree to all these terms and that if I will come in today that they will have a cashier's check for $5k waiting for me. I work for about 40 hours and make two months salary.
Your personal drive WILL be exploited, thats the way the system works. I've sat in on meetings where managers said "Yeah, I keep piling more stuff on so-and-so's plate and he keeps doing it. So don't worry, we'll give him this too".
The part you're not mentioning is the large, pork ridden company mentality: even while rome burns and you are "sacrificing" to prop up the company, there will be people in the cube next getting in at 9:01, leaving at 4:59, taking 2 hour lunches, and loudly flaunting their lack of interest in doing anything to support the bottom line all day long !
Motivation to break your own back ? I think not!
Lurking in the desert
In this life you are an Overlord, slave or freelancer.
I've worked for a company where I would have loved to have done the mass-resignation thing. It never happened, but I have to say all the better.
If you're leaving to start your own business, and you've asked a few buddies to come work for you, then that's a good thing for you and them. I mean, you're moving on to something you hope will be better than where you are - very positive.
If you're just going to leave to be unemployed, then you have to wonder what the point of that is. If you've got savings so you can ride out a few months of watching TV, then fine, but it's unlikely you and your buddies all have that sort of backup. In other words, one or more of you are likely to ebd up watching TV and not doing anything positive (perhaps even wondering why you left in the first place).
If all this seems a bit too complicated, then take my dad's advice (given to me when I stomped out of a shop job I had when I was 18): "Never leave a job unless you have another one to go to". Of course, "another job" can include holidays, travelling, retraining, etc etc, but you get the idea.
An organized walkout will appear to be exactly what it is... A premeditated attempt to screw the company. This is a time-honored union tactic. This is a not a professional tactic. You should all be highly skilled, highly paid professionals. Time to grow up. Meet (you, individually) with the boss. Make no reference to what others say or feel. Lay out all that you do and make your case for the raise that will make all this worth it. When they say no, then give your full notice (two weeks minimum). If you are key guy on the project then give a longer notice. Maybe a month. Then leave. Vote with your feet. If there really are better paying jobs available to you with better working conditions, then prove it. If you orchestrate a company failure, word will get around. Your references will suck. Remember. Professionals get paid more than union guys. Don't be seduced by union tactics. In the long run, a union will make programmers rule-driven, trapped by seniority rules, with the old COBOL deadwood guys making all the money. If you really have the tech chops, that is. If you are worse than average, then a union might raise your level.
Ok I have been in this position at 2 seperate companies. It's a pretty straight froward proccess.
If you think the company will make it and want to stay long term:
Find another job or at least a in writting long term consulting gig.
Go to your management there management generaly the first teir that you know but dont work with on a daily basis. Ask them to compensate you and get a good writting iron clad contract (think penalties) or you have a couple written offers for other companies with a better deal work whatever make sure not to go overboard they might know each other you never know.
They will generaly come back with a counter offer fairly quickly if you like it take it remember that contract length with penalties it's important the company may try and replace you asap to keep the other worker bees in line.
Otherwise work on that resume and give 2 weeks notice when the time is right. Also dont do a pile of extra work; oh yea on call hrm not getting paid for it, sorry not reachable going on vacation for the weekend. If your management depending on the state your only supposed to do 5 hours max of management related overtime a week not 20 of real work.
No sir I dont like it.
There are a LOT of out of work programmers and system admin/techie types out in the real world. These guys are hungry, and in many cases, have mouths at home to feed.
Don't overplay your being indispensible to the company as you are quite likely to find out how quickly you can be replaced. In other words, don't just walk off the job - that would be interpreted as a mass-quit.
Others have said it, and I'll repeat it. If you want the protection of federal labor laws on your side, then unionizing is your only option. Only when you properly organize and are represented by a union do you get the benefit of the NRLB (National Labor Relations Board). It also becomes quite illegal to fire people for organizating efforts./P.
Ron Gage - Westland, MI
My company offers generous salaries, stock options, and benefits, yet is flexible with work hours and vacation time (or at least my boss is). We aren't expected or motivated to work more than 40 hour weeks. Additionally, though a privately-held company, they are completely forthcoming about company financials. (Yes, the stock options are only theoretically valuable.)
So I'm loyal to my company because I feel that they treat me well.
-- Aaron
Be damned sure of the people who going to walk-out with you...
I was in a similar situation myself, and while the department I was in was small (there were only 3 of us) when the time came to walk, I was the only one with the balls to leave...
End result, I ended up quitting (and going back to school, which wasn't a major mistake, but I'm yet to find a decent job) the other 2 ended up getting raises for staying...
I had a friend who did something like this roughly a year ago. The group he was apart, which was essential at the time, of was getting lied to, overworked etc etc...
My friend approached the management and told them that there was talk in the department of a strike. He also told them that they had felt betrayed by the company due to the repetative lies from higher management about raises and appropriate work hours. He calmly informed them that no one wanted to strike but that they felt like they had no other choice since they weren't being heard any other way, and most of the deparement was looking to him to resolve the situation either through talks with management or organizing the strike. His boss and his bosses boss agreed with him and tried to help but were powerless. The higher management sent someone else to appraise the situation, whom my friend warned to tread lightly because most of the department was really upset, she didn't heed his words and was verbally abused for the entire meeting. After their appraisal the higher management's solution was to give my friend a raise but no one else, wait until the next round of scheduled layoffs to fire the entire department and then rehire 3/4 of them back in a months time. They didn't rehire any of the employees that had any leadership skills or repor with the management. The people who did get their jobs back were elated because they couldn't find anything else in the market.
I agree with the opinion of jtheory but I think that you should have someone else do the talking. If you show to them that you are willing to do something about the situation, even in a nice way, you may find yourself without a job.
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
The most likely outcome is that you will get even more work and all the unpleasent projects because the manager will assume you are going to leave anyway. Also, you will be on the top of layoff list for the same reason.
If the company can not afford to lose you, just decide what is a reasonable workload for your salary, social life and work enjoyment and stick to it. You are unlikely to get fired just for staying professional.
As for looking for new job, well you should always do it if you think your company is in trouble or you are not satisfied with your current work. It's already implied that you might leave, just like that you might get laid off. There is no need to say it explicitely.
Management replaced all who walked out. Six months later there was another walkout and Management was fired. However, no one who walked out was allowed back.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
It was this that made me want to study Human Resources, the conflict resolution, the different solutions for each situation -- I find it amazingly interesting.
This is my digital signature. 10011011001
No offence meant, but you really speak like the average insecure tech robot. The world is NOT a small place.
Been there, didn't do that.
;-)
While reducing staff projects upon projects were piled at a big5 company I worked for. At one point we had to say "Stop".
Did not walk out.
We compiled a list of ToDo's, went to our superior (okay, our superior's superior) and told him to give all these Priority-A-1-Alpha projects unique numbers. He has the big picture - or is at least paid to make decisions. So he decides. Not us.
He tried to argue (you must know - you're the techies), even actually tried to walk away. We said: okay, then we'll assume you hand us a blanko cheque okay to priorize. We'll then have this (interesting, but only moderately urgent) project with top priority (which still was sensible/okay but not the most urgent one) and continue down the list after finnishing.
No! He cried. Other projects...! We handed him the list again: Here. Numbers. Nonrepeating. You decide - or we have to. You know our suggestion. Decision still is your responsibility (i.e. your neck). So he told uns a preliminary No.1 - and followed up with a clean priority list.
With this we were able to work without overtime. Just worked 40(+epsilon) hours a week, and had priorities to fend off requests for "just a bit more" work (More work on your project? Then talk about priorities with Mr.X).
As for "a bit more overtime" - overtime and crunch mode only works for very limited ammounts of time (common knowledge is max. 2 weeks). After that stress-induced errors and illness have a very offsetting effect. If you're more stress-resistant that the remainder of your team, just fall back to the average to take speed and pressure out of the system. Noone can prove wether you really cannot find the one proper file among all the garbage crunch-mode-produced yestarday. It's very hard to differenciate between real symptomes of stress-induced illness or faked ones.
It even is a great opportunity to you, your team and even the company to introduce a task delegation and priorizing system - or other ones to steer projects and processes (e.g. change control procedures). Just to make sure, the really important business cases are handled properly and quality-assured, of course...
Escalation:
If the problem is your direct superior (S1), walk to his superior (S2). Or to his superior's superior (S3). If he understands the problem - fine. If not, start bouncing the problems back to them. They have to decide on priorities: "Which one - A or B - decide NOW!" - where the NOW is important as the project is important and must be complete NOW (so it's not your NOW, but his or the customer's one). You even can use it to jump levels (beyond/around S1 to S2) - simply have your colleague do the same talk with S1 simultaneously - so you can't reach him for decision and so you went to S2 because of the project's utter importance. If the answers contradict, go back to S2+S1 and tell that S1 (or S2) just ordered you otherwise (sorry for the overlap - it's just due to the hectic...), and you want a confirmation.
Simply bounce the pressure back. They have to slice the work into managable chunks - that's what managers are for. Just bounce it back for re-assignment. Because you want to see the project done, too (of course) and see THIS (chunk) will not be working (or contradicting with other stuff).
So get priorization and escalate, i.e. bounce irresponsible pressure, untaken responsibilities and not done decisions back to from where they come and where they belong. All for the sake of professional work and successful projects, of course (*NO* irony here).
This can even enhance your own position, especially if you give your superiors good (priority) suggestions and decision reationales. And suddenly you're not only programmer or admin, but on the track to project manager...
Qapla'!
I've had this happen to me twice, and this is what happens when you decide to stay after the initial cutbacks:
Your workload increases, output decreases, work satisfaction disappears completely, projects and services get cancelled and gradually fall into disarray.
Next, management realises that several departments (i.e. yours) aren't performing well enough or that your services seem to be sub-par and decides to 1) outsource your job function, and/or 2) 'restructure' the departments down to it's skeleton functionality.
That means you're either out of a job or you end up being one of the few 'lucky' ones who gets loaded with responsibilities and end up hating your job more then the plague.
My advice:
Be professional, get your folks together and try to see where management is going with this, make firm but fair suggestions, if possible, as to improve your condition. If they're not willing to meet them, give your X-weeks notice and then walk out.
-- Computers are not intelligent. They just think they are.
But be careful.
Trying to coordinate a departmental walkout can get you and any conspirators screwed, as in blacklisted. If only one person you aproach with the idea dissagrees with you, or has a "lifer" mentality, then this could get you fired in an ugly way.
Also, you might not get unemployment compensation if your employer is willing to pay for the lawyers to fight it and/or the unemployment arbitrators are biased against the employee (depends on the local political environment).
If you've already taken these thoughts into consideration, and you've weighed the risks carefully, then fsck 'em and walk (don't forget to delete all of your saved but unsubmitted work from the system before you leave).
Your best bet might be to discuss with your co-conspirators a plan to either help each other find employment, or to do as another poster suggested and create a consultancy of yourself and your coleagues.
Read, L
Now, here is the hard part.
Say NOTHING.
No contact, period.
Just leave, dont look back, accept no messages, open no mail, just send it back unopened. If your entire crew does that, you can insure that your former boss is toast. One thing that people do naturally is talk too much. Silence is power.
If you keep quiet, the HR department will be ORDERED to find out what happened. Meanwhile your group picks a single person who is NOT an employee to do all the talking for your side. If you let multiple people talk, they will turn your words against you. It also prevents you from being served with a lawsuit notice.
That person meets with HR off the premises alone, and gives them a single list of complains attributed to the group, without specifying individuals. HR will demand to speak to employees before anything happens. Resist and let them replace you if nessesary. Do NOT allow anyone from your group to speak with them for any reason, no matter how trivial.
The frustration will be directed at your Boss who is still there. Their ability to manage people will be questioned. There could be no other conclusion, due to your extreme position in not speaking with them. Your company will start looking for your boss' replacement while he is looking for yours.
You may never get your jobs back, but you can insure that the pain you cause your company will cause your boss to lose his job too. You need to decide just how far you are willing to take this. If you are just pissed off, you will get no satisfaction. If you are committed, you might be able to inact some sort of revenge on your former boss.
Look around at your group. If you have any pussies in it, forget the above and get back to work; you fucking slacker, you.
I tried this approach (years ago with a company that was just recently sold in pieces to pad the CEO's retirement fund). I discussed the situation with my manager, stated (calmly) that this would not be the situation in a year. He agreed - said they would hire someone to help out. Several times during the following year I was told the position was approved, and would be posted. Despite the continued assurances from my manager, and his manager, the situation only got worse. I walked (*AFTER* finding a new job), they tried to grab a replacement from the "internal pool" of IT people. About two months later I checked in with my old collegues - one of the systems I maintained (which they *demanded* 100% uptime from, was mission critical to about 300 people in several countries) had crashed and was down for over a week.
They never did post for that position AFAIK.
Later I found out they divided my job functions among 3 people (two new and one existing). All I wanted them to do was hire one person to lighten the load a bit.......
Guess it just goes to show ya, the Universe has a way of getting eve
. there used to be a sig here.....
I tried this once. We had a group of 6 people ready to walk out the door...When we didn't get what we asked for we had agreed to all leave at the same time in "F You" fashion.
To my suprise, when I turned around I was the only one walking. A lot of people talk a big game, but when it comes down to crunch time they'll fold on you.
You get drunk with your 'walk out' buddies. Then in the light of day, you wake up and have dinner. You basically do every you would normally do when you quit a job, including wish they had fired you instead so you collect unemployment.
Will you teach them a lesson? Yes; you will teach them that they can find cheaper people that are silly enough to work the long hours without complaint (for a while). You will help them fix their financial problem and/or help them to an ealier demise. But the chances of them begging you to come back like your were an abused spouse is probably pretty low.
Instead, I would opt for the 'fsck the bank I work for' mentality and go home when your tired, and live a happy life. When something better comes along, take it.
I think you underestimate just how much I just dont care.
I work at a small company, and we have been hit by the falling economy. We have pulled the office back to four days a week, and four days pay. We have also had to start paying half of our own health insurance. I know it's a MOJOR bonus that we didn't pay anything at all, but now we are paying a hefty amount at the same time that we all get our pay cut.
The problem that is arising with management (Management really consists of one person. It's a small office) is that we are supposed to maintain high levels of work, come in on the week-ends, stay late, even though we are only working 4 days a week. We are all feeling taken advantage of, but the job market is so bad, there is not a lot we can do to at this point.
I swear to GOD I had a point when I started writing this post, but I have no idea what it was now. Maybe I just needed to get that off my chest.
Though this is a late post, I still say: overworked and underpaid... sounds like you need to organize a union. Sad part is that almost no computer industry jobs are unionized.
Been there done that.
What happens when all the communication is one-sided? What happens when all the management spends it's time doing is trying to set the staff against each other, which might work, except that the staff DOES communicate, which just adds fuel to the whole situation becuase their attempts are so pathetically transparent.
There is so much intertia here, that nothing happens quickly, or even close. But pressure has likewise been building for a looooong time. I honestly don't see what else could be done. I don't know if the situation is unsalvageable, but it's certainly close.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
1) See Doctor.
;)
2) Get signed off work.
3) Be happy.
Ok, so it wont impress your co-workers but if the burden lies on them tell them to start at step 1.
In the end you get,
4) No people to run office.
The original poster had his facts wrong. $65,000 is above even the combined household income. The actual value is closer to $35,000 for a full-time employee.
ich muß mehr Kuhglocke haben
What you've really done is formed a union or basis for a union, though that word has a specific bureaucratic meaning in the U.S. Some people here have said it might be bad form to just say screw you and leave. Perhaps, if you're all together on this, perhaps you should approach your employers and tell them what you're unhappy with and what you want - no unpaid overtime or oncall, and in terms of being treated like dirt, perhaps more control over your work and some type of grievance procedure. If you're so sick of it you feel you just want to leave, just demand exactly what you all want and don't give in, then they can't say you just walked out - they just didn't pay attention to your demands.
Some people have said the job market is bad. It wouldn't be if more people did this - 2 people working 60 hour weeks without overtime pay is the same as 3 people working 40 hour weeks - they've put someone out of work with their lack of value for their time. But in terms of that, if one of you walks out you are easily replaced - if all of you threaten to walk out, or strike or whatnot at once, then that becomes less so - all of a sudden you become on more equal footing with the company. It depends on the situation, but in many cases something like a strike is exactly equal - you are hurt by not getting a paycheck, but the company operating without an IT department, or with IT scabs who have no idea what they're doing.
Decades ago, when people were treated like garbage, had work dumped on them and were told to work 60 hour weeks and be oncall 24/7, they used to do what you're doing almost naturally. That's why things didn't go to garbage. This is supposed to be a white collar profession for pete's sake. Half the people here are telling you to consider only the things that go wrong, that you should live like a coolie. It's a disgusting mentality that's crept in - be a man, especially if you're under 35 and don't have kids. I can see people in bad spots (H1-Bs, big families with little savings) being fearful, but if you're a 23 year old programmer, being a patsy for some company owner who is squeezing you dry is insane.
There are also other tactics that have been mentioned here like a "slow down". There are all kind of tactics like this, it's unfortunate that the community is so weak that it is difficult to learn things like this. It's helpful to all of us when people in your situation can talk to other IT workers and get some good ideas and community support. The employers sure as hell do it with organizations like the ITAA, that's one of the reasons we're in the boat we're in. There are organizations like the Programmers Guild and Washtech and so forth.
Have some backbone! In solidarity there's strength. If you're all together you DEFINITELY have leverage over the company. That's one thing the company and people of a certain mindset want to convince you of - they are all-powerful, you are weak and scared. Bullshit. In Europe, they are putting through crap people don't like with pensions and guess what - 80% of the workers in the country are going on strike. You can be certain Faux News doesn't cover that story - it might give people ideas. And guess what - the government and people pushing for that junk back off. That's why they have education systems where they don't have to import 1 million H1-Bs because supposedly there's not enough educated people in the US to do the IT jobs. When those European workers walk out of their jobs en masse, all of a sudden the shoe's on the other foot - the rich, and the bosses and the owners, and the government can't do a damn thing, THEY'RE the ones shaking in their boots - not the workers. What are the bosses going to do, fire all of the workers in the country? The reality is that the people who do the work in the company are the ones with all of the power, the owners and managers have po
You get the feeling that the company is just going to take advantage of you no matter how and what happens. You get together with the rest of the department for a 'fsck this company' meeting and decide to walk out.
I wonder how many PHBs just thought to themselves, "oh shit, I hope he's not talking about us."
Write a business plan for outsourcing your department's work (to yourselves).
Present it to the management and offer to set up the idea company for outsourcing to (their own department).
If they have financial problems they will love apparent the cost savings and headcount reduction and even help you set up on your own.
You are in the perfect position to write a good contract for yourselves, to know what the management think they are getting from you, and how much time and effort it will take to deliver it to them.
But be sure you are ready to run your own business.
I did something similar (left and started my own business with my former employer as major client) 15 years ago in the last big recession, and have great quality of life. My former employer has been through Chapter 11 twice and been acquired 3 times and no longer exists in the form I knew it.
Frankly, if the labor movement is ever to see revival, I believe it will be fueled by cutbacks and consolidation.
Where I work, for instance, we are making more money than last year. That's a good trick in our industry, given a soft economy and the fact that we've increased our (positive) cash flow from year-to-year.
But Wall Street is greedy. It demands that companies show they are "serious" about growing profits, no matter how appropriate that growth is to actual market conditions. Nothing demonstrates seriousness more than slashing overhead, so that's what management is forced to do.
Departments get cut to the bone, and the survivors find themselves forced to take up the slack. Workers are often reduced to wage slaves, working grotesque hours, balancing tasks traditionally handled by two or three people, on call at all hours. With ever-present email and cellphones, workdays are virtually as long as those of the early industrial era.
Forcing workers to compete with each other for a declining number of positions might be great for stockholders, but it sucks for the rest of us. There's no reason a free market shouldn't be a fair market, too.
Maybe we'll see a rise in labor actions. It's hard to imagine quick improvement, though, in the age of the all-powerful corporation.
If somebody has been at a job for 10 years, and they leave, I'm going to assume they have stuck through thick and thin.
I've been at my present employer for 16 years, starting as grunt programmer and working up into incompetence (i.e. mangement).
I look for longevity at jobs first. I just threw out a resume because the guy has never held a job for more than 1 year. Over the past 3 years, he's held 3 jobs a year. So I'm not interested in his quals.
On the other hand, I see a couple bunch of 3-7 year stints, I'm not as interested in why they're leaving.
And BTW, if I left under these circumstances (and I would), I'd simply tell the new employer that I was ready for new challenges.
Been in exactly this situation about three years ago, except that as chief geek I owned half the company. I said I was leaving, and did a deal with the suits that they would buy me out for UKP25,000. Two months later suits said they couldn't pay me and would I buy them out - so I offered them UKP1 and they accepted. I then gutted all the assets out of the company except one customer account and sold the company on for UKP1 to the consultant who was running that account, but that's another story. We've never looked back - much less stress, much less work (because we're carrying so much less overhead the company doesn't need to earn so much) and we're able to pay ourselves more, not less.
Make sure you have good relationships with key customers and that those customers know which team has the competence to deliver after the split. Also make sure you aren't hit with a non-compete - they're not strictly legal here in the UK but it's still a hassle.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
There is a surprising amount of whining in the posts I've read through so far. Perhaps the folks that are doing alot of the whining should realize what a /competitive/ industry is like.
It shouldn't take an act of god (or someone with a sledgehammer) to pound the fact home: in a competitive economy you are LUCKY to have a job. I have a hunch that alot of the "whine" posts I see are from folks who graduated in the last 5-7 years: folks with unrealistic expectations of things like 40 hour work weeks.
Look at successful _U_S_ companies. You will find very few whose employees work a "40" hour week. Ask chip design engineers. Ask automotive engineers. Ask aeronautical engineers. Ask any highly competitive industry where people are losing jobs to cheaper work.
And if you are looking at an industry where you don't EXPECT competition, you better change your expectations. It's a world market folks.
A department wide walkout for 50-60 hours a week? The entire automotive industry has been on 50-60 hour weeks for over a decade.
Come on folks, get real. You want to keep your job? Shut up and work, and hope you do it cheaper, better, and smarter than the guy in China. Because THEY know what it's truly like to have nothing, and THEY'LL bust their ass for a hell of lot less pay than you will.
Whiny children.
And for those of you whom are going to speak up and say things like "with that attitude you'll get walked all over" - take a look at Japan. Here is a country BUILT on loyalty and life-long employment, who has recently had to admit that it just CAN NOT be done. You have to retain the flexibility to hire and lay off to stay competitive. Period.
Bob #1: We're trying to get a feel for what people do around here.. so, could you just walk us through a typical day for you?
Peter: Well, sure Bob. I generally come in at least 15 minutes late. I use the side door; that way Lumbergh can't see me, and after that I just sorta space out for about an hour--
Bob #2: Ah wait--space out?
Peter: Yeah. I just stare at my desk. But it looks like I'm working. I do that for, uh.. probably another hour after lunch too. I'd say, in a given week, I probably only do about 15 minutes of real, actual.. work.
worked for me for about a year and a half. Then we got a new director who didn't suck ass, and she got new managers in place that didn't suck ass and now we're all happily doing more than 15 minutes of work. Though I still find time to search slashdot and post office space quotes. That can't be considered good. But fuck it, I'm salary.
Peter: We don't have a lot of time on this earth! We weren't meant to spend it this way. Human beings were not meant to sit in little cubicles staring at computer screens all day... filling out useless forms... and listening to eight different bosses drone on about mission statements.
Michael: I told those fudge packers that I liked Michael Bolton's music.
Peter: Oh that is not right, Michael.
Peter: So I was sitting is my cubicle today, and I realized.. ever since I started working, every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me.. that's on the worst day of my life.
Therapist: What about today? Is today the worst day of your life?
Peter: Yeah.
Therapist: Wow, that's messed up.
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
I couldn't agree more. Nothing to do with the current economy, doing what's right for yourself, etc... In any situation, you have to try to look at it from all angles. Yours, your co-workers, your managers, etc.. before you make any kind of decision, especially a life changing (income affecting) one like this. Believe it or not, (most) managers are human, and tend to be under a different set of pressures. My current manager is level headed and understands the problems we as developers face.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Companies today don't give a rat's ass about you. All they want is a bunch of robots paying them as little as possible. Everyone is replaceable. If you understand that and embrace it, you can always have the last laugh. Before you leave make sure you have something lined up to go to. As soon as you start at your new job, decide how long you want to stay there (3,4,5 years), and what kind of position you would want at that time. Never stay at a company for more than 6 years. During the time you're at the new job, study,read, and learn what it takes to be able to perform that new position. If the company offers training, great, but don't rely on them 100%. It's your responsibility to improve yourself. Once the time limit has been reached, if you haven't been promoted to the position you've been planning , go on a job hunt again. I once made the mistake of staying 8 years with a company. In the end, the company screwed me over, and I had to take a pay cut and a lower position just to get a new job.
/ /www.cpsr.org),(http://www.eff.org) . Laws against us have been passed because we aren't political enough. Look at UCITA. Vendors tried to screw us over one more time. We became organized, and now we are in a stalemate. It's not dead yet, but its certaintly not being enacted on a grand scale.
Also, become more active politically. Write to your congressman about getting these excemptions to the labor laws reversed.Join organizations like (http://www.cdt.org/),(http://www.acm.org),(http:
Unions are not an answer. They have their own adgendas and they kill and calcify whole industries once they take hold.
Quit playing Monopoly with Bill.
Linux - of the people, by the people, and for the people.
A few of the replies point to "how others in the company that are not part of the quitting group might react".
This is not the persons problem. In the end its just business. Its not personal at all. If someone else has a personal problem about an employee or group of employees leaving then its that individuals problem to sort out.
You really have to look out for yourself.
Nuff said
"I would run Imail on win32 before I would even dream of using sendmail(or variants) on *nix."
Because you don't have a clue to set up sendmail.
Hey, but I'll bet you know how to use TSE. That's the ticket.
Loser.
I have to disagree with that statement. I also have to say that I used to agree with that statement. A trade union (electrician, plumber)is very useful, from both sides of the fence.
From the worker, you have a job, get a decent wage, get training, and get placement. Good workers look for good companies. A good company will always have work and treat their employees well. Lazy louts will have a harder go of it, and will wind up on furlough (Laid off) more often.
From the manager (my side) it's good too. If I hire a union electrician, he or she has to come with tools, and prepared and able to do a certain level of work. If this person cannot do that, I send them back. One of the big complaints about non-union work is a lack of training. And I've seen it happen. A guy shows up and says he's an electrician, but he barely knows how to change a light bulb, let alone install electric panels!
And yes, a union electrician costs more, but the odds are you're going to get a better job out of a union shop. That said, there are non-union shops out there (especially away from the east coast, where there is less organized labor) that do great work. But even then a good shop is going to cost more because in the end, you get what you pay for.
One last thing, this all pertains to more physical, blue collar work, construction and maintenance of data centers, not the programming and operation of the equipment in it.
And no, I'm not in a union, but I use them. And I'm good at it!
Unless you are an average professional, in which case negotiating bigger paycheck via blackmail is *the* only way.
"And we wouldn't have believed the (verbal) assurances the larger company gave us regarding our soon-to-be contract with them."
I worked for a 4 man tech support crew once
First, did you read the whole story?
The reason I ask is because the original poster made it clear that this was not a collective bargaining situation. This is not a strike. This is not a walk-out. They are not trying to gain anything from the company. They don't want better pay. They don't want better hours. Rather, they want to leave -- for good -- in a way calculated to inflict maximum harm.
Surely, you can see the difference. Right?
Second, are you replying to my response, or some imagined anti-union rant?
The reason I ask is because my response doesn't suggest that the employees shouldn't walk out together, nor does it suggest that they throw away their right to act collectively. It says, rather, that if they do walk out, they should do it as professionals.
Given that they are leaving for good, they have no desire to shock the company into a better bargaining position by an immediate walk-out. Therefore, the only thing the employees could possibly have gained by leaving without notice is the momentary satisfaction of having taken revenge on their employer. As I pointed out, this satisfaction isn't worth the damage it would cause to their reputations.
Easy, automatic testing for Perl.
But you know what...I always had my own reasons and when I made my decision it was thoughtfully, personally, and irrevocably. And it wasn't just because of what someone else did, or I thought they did. When my nerves get frayed then I start to assume that something else about the job is bugging me too. Maybe the orgainization has no future, maybe I have no future within it, maybe others are being abused and I don't like it, maybe I'm underutilized. You gotta go with your instincts, and when your instincts say "go!" you gotta run
/. ! I am generally respected by management. They have been tough but polite. I feel like I know what is going on, and what is required to get this flying heap off the runway.
Sure jobs can be crappy. If you think about it, that is part of the definition of "work" (ie, not many people get paid to do their hobby.) So you show up every morning expecting crap, and there it is in a big steaming pile. Especially in the technology industry where it is such a Wild West show. Right now, my current company is shrinking though we have probably reached the bottom. We added a new account. Too many people have left so now I work some ungodly hours juggling probably too many chainsaws until my very soul becomes weary...but the "work" is not impossible and I can do some interesting hacks now and again. Money for my hobby at that point. Obviously I have enough discretionary time to surf
Am I about to leave? No way. Could I be made to leave? Hmm....I suppose. But I don't sense that kind of pressure coming on. My instincts say "tough it out a while."
Someone will say I am working for a winner company right now and to stay the course. That is probably correct. That could also change. I will read the signs and move when I need to. But if I do it will be, as always, for my own reasons.
=^..^= all your rodent are belong to us
You should reread your contract on worktimes, overtime and pay. Then have a chat with your coworkers. Here are some things to suggest, in no particular order.
1) Make the bosses fire you, don't leave of your own accord. Compensation packages and all that.
2) Do only the work you get paid for. If there is no compensation offered for overtime and on-call, overtime and on-call don't happen.
3) Update your CVs (You will be leaving, but on your own terms).
4) When you are planning and scheduling for projects, ask for quite a bit more time than you'll really need. Management will probably cut the time allowance but at least the situation improved from 'slave-driven' to 'overworked'.
5) Check (or have a lawyer check) state/local laws on (maximum) worktimes and pay. Things like no-pay overtime and no-pay mandatory on-call don't seem entirely kosher. Collectively blow the whistle if need be. Employer retaliation (e.g. firing) is a VERY serious no-no.
6) Write a collective letter of grievance to (senior) management. In it, politely and correctly state any and all grievances you and your coworkers have. Do NOT threaten a walkout (see 1). You may want a lawyer to doublecheck you on this. Have everyone sign multiple copies and have at least one dated by a notary. Send copies to HR, your immediate boss and individually to every board member.
7) Keep copies of (official) memo's and directives on working times and conditions. If you can, get copies of 'historical' documents as well. Keep the file and a paper backup of it at home.
The really important thing is collective action. Everyone has in on this and be kept in on this!
Good luck,
Sysmangler at Large
Okay, so you do want to strike out on your own anyway. To create a business, or become a contractor. Still possible, but you have to prepare much more thoroughly
Actually, the best advice I can give to someone in that situation is the advice I would give to anyone: buy and read "The Millionaire Next Door". Or save the dough and listen to my summary: Live not within but WELL BELOW your means. Take the leftover capital, and accumulate it. That's why we call it Capitalism, baby!
Okay, now you have your huge stash of money. Now you can become a contractor, or start your business, or invest the cash in muni bonds.
Happy?
Yo, if your boss is a S-O-B
Tell him to S-H-O-V-E the J-O-B
Put your middle finger up slowly
Put it close enough to his face so he can examine it closely
Say I ain't workin here no more
Who do you think you are?
Rip your apron off, throw it on the floor
Run to the door, to the payphone
Make a toll-free call
Tell your spouse what happened and where you are
So they can come and get you in the car later on
And help you search for a new 9 to 5 job
If the unemployment line ain't that long
You can take your time printin out W-9 forms
Eventually, you'll get on if you try hard enough
And you'll get money if you keep punchin your time card enough
Maybe you hate it, maybe you love it
But if you hate it all you gotta do is get mad and tell the boss to
[Biz Markie]
Take this job and shove it
I ain't workin here no more
Take this job and shove it
I ain't workin here no more
Take this job and shove it
I ain't workin here no more
Take this job, take this job, take this job and shove it
1. Quit enmass.
2. Start a company providing the services your department provided.
3. Offer those services to your former company and other companies as well.
4. Profit!
I tried organizing something like this, it fell thru and management found out. The company sucked before and sucked more afterward.
All those that said leave, left on their own within six months (including me), all those that said hang in stayed more than a year and some multiple years. And now 7 years later, I don't talk to any of those people, I left things well with most of them but I moved on and lost track of them.
Let me give you a clue, it is about you, so stop worrying about what others think. Don't quit until you have a new job, then give two week notice. Nothing you do will make a point, nothing you do will make the powers that be see your point. Live your life for you and do the best for yourself.
...but then Reagan fired us all. Bastard.
I was working for a long ago defunct computer company called Entre computers (in the 80's). Over a year period, the owner milked the company dry to make the numbers look go so he could sell it. The buyer lied to everyone about pay and position until the day he signed the paperwork, and then told everyone that they whould have to reapply for their positions (and pay). That evening, the entire staff met at a pizza joint and decided to quit. The next day all of us walked in and some of us took hardware equil to the amount we had been stiffed in pay. We then told the acting manager we were all quitting (the owner was on a business trip).
I'll never forget that fat consertave looser in a business suit begging me on the phone to return to work (his groveling brought me great joy!). I said no thanks, and wished him bad luck. Entre computers in Towsand MD folded the next month, after the new owner realized the company had been bilked (he never asked any of the employees, we all new what was going on). So much for suits and their power over us.
I still remember this very clearly. I have never assumed since then that anyone from any company I have worked for is any better than me, or has any power over me.
Best time I ever spent was listening to a series on negotiation (I happen to listen to this guy on the subject of power negotiating
The real issue is not whether to leave or not, but rather to negotiate with the bosses to get the respect and working conditions you want. There's lot of "gambits" you can use like good-guy/bad-guy, higher authority, nibbling and a host of other tactics
For example. the company I'm currently working at desperately needed some fixes to their commercial accounting system. Rather than say "Yeah I can help you" I phrased it as "I might be able to help you, but what are you going to do for me?". Two weeks later I'm sitting in my own office with a $4500.00 PC and a 22" monitor using only Linux - a dream job!
If geeks would learn some basic negotiating skills, Linux would eventually rule, the world would be a better place, and we'd all make more money. (Don't believe me? Talk to an accomplished salesman)
Ruby on Rails Screencast
Yeah, easily replaceable if you can speak Spanish.
Seriously, I worked fast food for years, and there was a chronic shortage of employees. Sad, when you consider how many people would rather spend their time telemarketing.
let me guess....macromedia ? the coldfusion or dreamweaver teams ?
... you don't strike - you just go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way!
-Homer J. Simpson
Volunteer for a big paycut rather than work 80 hours/wk. The economy for cubicle dwellers is really nasty right now. Everybody is firing, not hiring. You can't be choosey. Volunteer for a big pay cut.
Table-ized A.I.
In this market, be grateful you got a job.
NEVER quit job "A" until you have job "B" lined up! NEVER.
If you want to try strong-arm tactics against your employer, form a union.
A couple things follow:
If you can't come up with job "B", that means that you should probably keep working at job "A" and deal with it as best you can. Work slowdowns and other means of "giving management the finger" may make you feel good for the moment. Don't screw yourself.
If you can't get enough support from your co-workers to form a union, that's a pretty good indicator that your brilliant plan to "show management whose boss" is going to fail.
An note to employers here: Loyalty flows both ways. If you're screwing your employees, you can be sure they are going to screw you back. And you, as the employer, have to be the first to show respect. Most employers would prefer to use manipulation and intimidation than respect. Fact is, intimidation is a better short-term solution.
I must say this comes from a voice of experience. I left my previous job mainly because I did not respect my boss. I will not iterate his shortcomings here; just say that he did not meet my criteria for respect. I hired on with another (much smaller) company whose leader I did (and do) respect.
In tough economic times, the company I work for has had to cut back on some benefits simply because the money was not there. Some employees would have dragged out their offer of employment and cried "FOUL". No. Most employers will give you some song and dance about "we have to face reality her...we are no longer able to..." Fine, that's probably true. But when economics improve, does management restore vacations? Benefits? My boss did.. When money got even tighter, the management cut salaries, too. Their own salaries, that is. And that means president, veep, etc. Not "project managers", etc. The people with the power to make the cuts cut themselves first.
Listen up, bosses reading this: This is respect. All of these "Who Cut My Cheese" books won't tell you the simple truth: "If you take care of your people, they will take care of you". And if you screw them, don't expect any better back.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Best advice I've seen so far... although if the management IS against the troops it is best to learn that early. I was in a situation once where the management knew about 9 months in advance that they were going to be bought out by a competitor. The competitor told them (roughly) "We want to pay for redundancies (layoff remuneration) on as few of your workers as possible when we buy you out. So for each worker you can aggravate enough that they will quit (and forfeit the $$) we will give you a nice comfy bonus."
Don't walk out w/o money 6 months' savings account. It would be foolish and the job market as it is, makes it hard to find employment.
As some people pointed out earlier, your work colleagues may turn out to be your worst enemy when you try to walk/protest.
I suggest writing a carefull (read: diplomatic) letter listing your demands and why you need them met (i.e. long hours & no compensation cannot continue). Do not write an e-mail - they are easily deleted from computers and servers.
Other reasons:
1) It makes a paper record. By sending carbon copies to your manager all the way to the CEO they will have to acknowledge that the issue was brought up and how it was approached.
2) Paper is always good for the courts - if it has to go that far either for wrongful dismissal suit and/or to get unpaid monies after being fired.
3) By writing the letter first, you don't have to rely on having your colleagues to physically approach the boss or manager with you. Have them sign the letter. If they refuse, destroying the letter is easy. By signing, you have physical proof the they are backing you up rather. They won't have a chance of chickening out if you approach the management instead.
Sounds an awful lot like a Union :-)
Talk about a major case of rose colored glasses. When these wonderful managers mismanage the company into the ground, then ask me to clean up their mess, should I?
... but then again, it might.
Ah, that cursed optimism of mine. Just can't shake it.
The funny thing is, though -- it can work. If you just scheme against management, they will know it and not feel any compunction at all about giving you the boot.
If you try to work with them (and yes, maybe help them clean up the mess, but also help them prevent it from happening again), it might not work (and you can usually figure out pretty early on if it's failing, and bail before you get yourself into trouble!)
There are companies where the intelligent, considerate but persistent person can really get ahead. There are companies where s/he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell. Start slowly to find out where you are... and if you're the snowball-in-hell, you can either start stabbing backs and scrabbling, or just lay low, wait out the poor economy, and move on when you can.
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
Computer science Masters, business degree 5 years experience, 4 programming languages, 3 foreign languages and 15,000GBP a year ($20,000).
A change in the way employees negotiate with employers is long overdue.
"It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
"There is no "company", a single malevolent entity that is treating you like dirt."
Then what signs the checks and makes the contracts? In the end, there is an organization that is entirely under the authority of perhaps 3 or 4 people who seldom, in this situation, directly respond to individual employees.
"Feelings, huh? You don't know what's going on or why, but you have these feelings?"
When one has worked at a firm for a year or more, ones feelings are usually based on a great deal of experience. If the feeling is there's not going to be any response, likely that's the case.
A startup I was working for about 4, 5 years ago was doing fairly good business, but ended up having some pretty bad cashflow problems (collection sucked). When some of the sales guys and one of the IT guys wanted to know what the plan was for commissions compensation (understanding that there was no cash on hand, but having a plan in place), and management gave us nothing in the way of a plan, and in the case of the IT guy absolved themselves of their debt, we staged a walkout.
The IT guy (my best friend) quit immediately. One of the other programmers had quit the day before. I quit but offered to stay onboard and transition a few projects (out of the goodness of my heart - assholes be damned). I got walked out the door. Two of my friends who were in marketing but were not seriously considering a walk-out were bounced out the door a week later with a month's severance and leftover vacation time. Definite house-cleaning.
The company deserved to lose us. They are doing fantastic 4 years later, so I know we didn't hurt them (not that I cared), but I hope at least they got the fucking point.
-Chris
A previous employer liked to give out $10k hiring bonuses that had to be repaid if you left before a set time (my case was two years).
We had several people who left the day of the expiration, with less than on week's warning.
I casually let slip that I would be renting out my house six months before my date was up.
This employer has a few bad things to say about me, but they have admitted that my departure was cleaner than the others because it was expected.
Time limits on sign-on bonuses plus a bad work environment always equals a mutually-agreed termination date.
That's because without the first three (the board, the shareholders, the customers) there won't be any employees. The worst thing you will ever have the opportunity to do as a manager is to look someone in the eye and tell them they have two weeks or to go clean out their desk...it's an unfortunate situation but as the post that started this thread pointed out it's not some mindless entity making these decisions, it's people. And many of these people making these decisions are probably laying awake every night trying to figure out how they're going to make it through another week without laying off any more people.
This makes the parent post even more relevant, as an employee you stand the best shot of resolving issues like this by being as open and honest about your needs with your employer as you can. At the same time the company can return the favor by being as open and honest with it's employees as possible. One of the best work experiences I had was working for a failing company that was very honest with it's employees. Nearly everyday we'd have these company-wide meetings with the CEO and he'd lay everything out for everyone...many of those meetings went something like: "We have enough funding to carry us for 4 weeks as is, if we make some changes we can extend that out x weeks...here's our options...". At least in those situations everyone knows exactly what's going on and everyone can make educated decisions about where they stand within that company and whether or not they'd better start making other plans for employment.
I once walked out with a colleague over a payrise which was promised but never delivered. After advertising the posts and man hours of interviewing time, I heard later that the cost of rehiring was far more than the combined amounts we were denied.
Bad business is full of false economies like this to "save face" for executives and middle managers.
"It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
Yea, convince the entire group to go, then when you have one of your coworkers with 3 kids and another on the way who is six months out of work, behind on his mortgage and starving because of your "idea" then you can see how good of an impulse this is. I work in recruiting and staffing and can say for a fact that NOBODY in an organization (this even goes for an entire group) is irreplaceable. Many premadonas think they are, but with the market the way it is there are more than a few starving IT professionals out there who will take anything right now, including your job. I have met more talented folks than I can count in the last 12 months who have been out of work for along time... and the way things looking are I don't see alot of them getting back into it any time soon. So yea, go ahead and create a mass exodus. You won't get unemployment if you walk out (nomatter the reason), because you quit. Afterwards, you and your friends can learn what it feels like to have more month than money, and talk to recruiters who will keep telling you nothing is available, but to âoejust hang in there.â
According to this link: http://www.cbpp.org/9-24-02pov.htm the median FAMILY income in 2001 was $42K. Keep in mind that this is based on family household data, not individual incomes. Also remember that medians are not as sensitive to extreme scores (some person making 20 million dollars) the way averages are.
I have some experience with this type of situation because I founded a company that was acquired and stayed along as they did a extra-professional job of ruining the organization I had built with my original partners. All of our original employees and the great team we built up after the acquisition were extremely disappointed to find what was previously an excellent company to work for turn into a hell-on-earth mess.
There are a couple of important things you might want to think about before having a mass walk-out at your current company:
Why the mass walk out? Is it to "teach management a lesson" and make yourselves feel better? If so, you should probably realize that everyone is better served if the people who are dissatisfied simply find other jobs (or don't find jobs if they have enough cash to ride out some unemployment) and leave in an orderly fashion. Give your two weeks notice, go to your next job, and hopefully you'll find yourself in a better situation.
Staging some sort of apocalyptic last battle that leaves the company IT department in shambles might be fun to fantasize about and possibly even fun to execute, but you really need to think about what actual benefits this will provide. Possibly some of the people who quit are now unemployed and under the gun to find something else. Possibly there are some people left behind in management who were actually all right folks who are now in a really hard position. Almost certainly anyone who is left behind to pick up the pieces isn't going to be a terribly useful reference for future work.
In a situation like this it is key to determine what value there is in striking a "victory" against your old department. A Phyrric victory is a victory where so much damage has been done to all parties involved that is is hard to actually call the nominal winner a true victor. Adopting a scorched earth mentality might be a fun posture to adopt, but dealing with the consequences can be pretty unpleasant for _everyone_ involved.
I had to sit around and watch the company I built go to hell. The smart people just found other jobs, said their goodbyes, and went on to bigger and better things - everyone stayed friends. Other people chose to sabotage the operation by sending employee lists to recruiters, complaining about things that weren't going to change, and just generally adding to an already terrible situation. These people all left or got laid off eventually, but they also destroyed a number of professional relationships that did not have to end with their attachment to the original company.
In short, please leave your job if it sucks because life is too short to work at a shitty job (unless you're contractually required to stay like I was). However, take a moment to think about how you leave that job and be sure that your actions actually contribute to your long term happiness and professional development rather than just making you feel good when you tell The Man to take his job and suck it.
First, it always help to know when the company has started the fsck plan as soon as possible. This will help you in to not getting yourself in trouble as you can when you start obeying the company to stay for long work shifts, or even 7x24, because once you start doing so it will very difficult to stop. It always pays to have friends on human resourses / finantial department to know when things happen.
Second, you start searching for another job when all your coworkers use the extra work time to fall in the spiral of trouble. Of course, it will help when not only you, but all the department simply do not accept the new kind of rules, but unfunaterly this is not the case as you're reading Slashdot when the others are using compressed air to clean motherboards.
Third, you can expect to be fired when this process (finding another job in your free time) is still in early stages, because other coworkers will even start to complain as you leave office early every day, among other causes. This is not as bad as it sounds: when the company fires you only because you're doing your job at the usual schedule it will pay you for that (legal affairs differs state to state or even country to country). When you leave voluntarily you receive a lot less (and you will if you find another job to jump in).
Third, never use the company's network to search for another job (you can be fired early, even with no compensatory package, simply for using the company's assets for this purpose), this is NOT a smart move. Period.
In the end, if everything is sincronized, you will find yourelf in another job, using the time the others spend jobless working for your current company, for less daily hours. This is the best case, of course, and demands you to be as reserved and confidential as you can. But hings could go wrong...
Always get to know the law, as you can find what can happen, to be prepared (this could help you when you receive your last payment for your current company, for example).
You can use some (of all) of your company's benefits (days you can work from your home, sickness, courses, even not showing at office with a limit) to go to job interviews.
Keep in mind this: you will not be treated different because you're special, you know something the others know or youÂre to important for your company, if you fail to realize this you probably shouldn't reading this, it will help you more to use compressed air to service motherboards and cds. You have very little time to fly, maybe to a better possition ;)
If it helps, once the company fires the unfirable staff, it starts a never-ending process of hiring new people, and as soon as this people finds what it's all about, resigns, to start it all over again, and again, and again...
It's just a shame that there're some places where the finantial people are so dumb thay cannot say what costs more, or the company is so alienated with money that does'nt care for it most valuable asset: the people.
Carlos Niebla
Don't forget too even if you make your point and are taken back in, it will be to finish whats on the table but your days are numbered. Most managers wouldn't keep someone around who's going to just walk out again when they're in a pinch. Work the time you're paid for and go home.
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." -Voltaire
The key here is that we had specific complaints, specific solutions we wanted, reasons why those solutions were the right ones, and we also had sufficient numbers (well, the whole company) that they couldn't ignore the issue.
Make sure that you know your reasons for taking action. Make sure that you've identified the core problems, and that you've all tried to address them with management directly.
Then figure out what solutions you think will fix the problems. New managers? New company policies? What exactly would make your jobs enjoyable again, while still helping the company through its tough times?
Lastly, be careful before you make specific threats (i.e. you do what we ask or we're gone). Unless you really don't care about the company at all, I assume you don't want to really threaten -- you just want to make sure that they know you feel strongly about the problems, and that you will have to take action. Make sure you do in fact have sufficient numbers and sufficiently important roles in the company to back up any threats of action that you do make. If you just look like a few cranks, nobody will take you seriously.
But really, it comes down to looking as though you care, you want to work things out, and you just want to bring attention to the problems. Keep in mind that you're going to have to go over someone's head to reach people who can take action, and you may create some pretty bad feelings in the process. You may well end up making things worse, in fact, if you're not careful. But if you care about the job and the company, and you really think things are intolerable now, and you've made reasonable efforts talking to people one on one about the problems...well, then it's certainly time to do something about it.
Tap everyone in the office for headhunter contacts and quietly get the word out that there is a whole group of X engineers who developed Y that want to move to another company.
Depending on what you do, there may be someone out there ready to hire the whole lot of you. While less likley that it was about 3 or 4 years ago it's still a possibility IF what you do as a group is in demand and IF you creating first rate work in that field.
Eschew Obfuscation
Got shown the door faster than you can say, "Dorf on Golf". I'd rather leave on good terms than walk out on a job ever again.
People are always talking about how much a company will be hurting if/when they leave, but in reality, life goes on. Companies go on. Some of the people left behind may suffer a little more for a while, but then equilibrium sets in again. At least in larger companies.
Work as an exterminator or get a job in the funeral business.
Indefinite job security.
With all these stories about people quitting to start their own "consultant company", no wonder there is a glut of small consulting companies.
Table-ized A.I.
- If you haven't yet done so, read your terms and conditions of employment, including the small print. Pay especial attention to procedures laid down for handling employee grievances, and disciplinary issues, and over what activities may constitute grounds for disciplinary actions.
- Give your local managers the chance to recognise that they have a problem and to make a sincere attempt to resolve it before moving to the grievance stage.
- Keep a written record of these discussions - make a summary at the end of meetings and indicate to the people you're talking with what you consider were the important points and what you understand to have been agreed (or not) on each side.
- Don't indulge in wishful thinking on a matter as important as this. As others have already noted, it's easy to believe that you're more vital to the enterprise than you actually are, and there's the unpleasant possibility that even if everyone who's unhappy acts responsibly you'll still be identified as trouble-makers and find yourselves looking for other work. I'm not saying that you should wimp out and let yourselves be shafted because of the current state of the job market, only that you are realistic about the situation.
Good luck, anyway.I've done this at two former employers.
The result at the first one:
Company, out of business.
Me, out of job (8 months or so).
The result at the second one:
Company has to scamble to keep things together.
Me, out of job (5 months or so).
Though, in both cases it was a situation I felt like I had no choice, regardless of the outcome. If you feel like it's something you gotta do, go ahead and do it.
# wrote sig.txt, 23 lines, 31337 chars
You have rights under the law. Consult a licensed attorney. You should look for one who focuses on employment and labor issues.
A lawyer with actual experience in intellectual property, NDA and trade secret cases can advise you about important prep work before you leave that will give you partial protection. There's apparently no such thing as complete protection.
Take this seriously, folks. Not every employer makes rational decisions about litigation.
A bunch of the remaining developers (who had survived a couple of rounds of layoffs) became upset at what had happened to the founder (he was escorted from the building by the people he had sold the concern to, with a police officer [totally unnecessary]) The surviving employees talked to a group of the layed off, gathered forces, put themselves on E-Bay (check the news around October of 2000) as a 'fully functional e-commerce team' and AllTel opened an office in downtown Charleston and snapped them all up, especially the ones who voluntarily left HOMEACCOUNT, and everybody got to work on the Spectrum project. Moral of the story, business is business, but companies are still made of people and people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect no matter what your financial situation is.
...just involves randomly click on stories to approve and not much else...you don't even have to check for duplicates. And, boy, does it get you some classy women too! ;-)
-psy
We let our misgivings be known ... but I think the thing we did that really help0ed was we all updated our resumes, printed them out and left them on the laser printer for a day ....
I will bite on this !
The company I worked for 5 years was a mid-size company with Corp. HQ in Indpls, IN and 6 "factories" in different states. There were about 400 employees. The IT group I worked in was very close knit with about 6 people. We knew each other pretty well and go to each other's houses for different socail things on weekends. This was my first job after college and all the groups I worked in ever since were not close knit like this job.
Around my 3rd year in the company and with the job market improving (1993), we had our annual review with the VP of Finance. The previous year, we worked our asses off to get a project done on time even with the unreasonable deadlines imposed by executive management. During our performance evaluations, each of us took turns with our boss and the VP and each of us got something like $1000 or $2000 pay raise and she made up excuses (downgrade our performance review) why we are not making more money. There was alot of grumbling within the ranks and a different executive overheard the comments and went to the owner of the company. Also, one of the top people left for a different job with a good jump in pay.
The owner of the company knew how to walk the fine line on compensation. He paid people enough money especially in the factories to where they didn't desire to unionize. The people (except executive mgt) in Corp. HQ made less money than the plant workers. The owner was cheap in paying the white collar people money.
The owner knew if IT people are unhappy, there would be problems with the company systems so he called the labor lawyer in NYC and he came out to Indiana to have confidential discussions with each person in the IT group. He would then present a report to the owner. The owner also sent the VP of Finance on a long vacation since a lot of people were pissed at (not only our group but also accounting since she meddled in their affairs).
After it was said and done, most of us got pay raises that were significant. Mine jumped up $5000. Within a year, I left the company to take a job in Colorado with a double in pay which was 1995.
In 1998, the company was sold to a large corporation and the owner got a good golden parachute with a no-compete clause. He owns similar businesses today and is expanding out quickly but how he paid his white collar people, I would not work for him again.
Also when I worked for that company, we had a strict dress code to where if you went on a business trip on a Sunday, you had to dress up even on Sunday to travel. Vacation time was also a premium. Cannot carry over from year to year and your first year in the company, you did not get vacation time and the following three years, you only got a week ! An additional note on the VP of Finance, on the dress code, she did not allow us to participate on dress down Friday while the rest of Corp. HQ could wear jeans. She was a snak
Homer once said "Do your job half-assed. That is the american way!" Truer words were never spoken.
Rather then walk out, pull a wally and get a comp pakcage. Sleep under your desk like I did for a month. That really gets to them.
and we all were unemployed for a while.
I suppose that's the big "outcome" of doing what you suggested. Back at the old company they had to hire a bunch of new people whom (I assume) they paid less than they had paid us. Nobody knows what happened after that because we all had quit.
I hope I've helped to shed some light on situations like this for you... nobody really wins or loses in these kinds of situations.
[signature]
Walking out is dumb especially when you consider crappy economy, number of foreign workers who ARE willing to work for less and put in more hours.
Back in the IPO-crazy days people had no problems working 70, 80-hour weeks. Now that we are back to reality, why do you ask for something that you will never get back - time. Time that you could have spent with your family, friends, etc. is worth more (to me) than extra 10k that you can probably squeeze out of the Co.
Why don't you negotiate flex time schedule for ALL IT people in your group.
Either ask for more vacation time or Summer Hours schedule where you get to leave earlier on Fridays, like 1 or 2pm. If they won't give you more money, the least they can do is give you more vacation time and more personal days.
This is good advice. Your resignation letter should also contain pro forma regret. You can do that and remain sincere. "Regrettably" sounds polite; nobody can use it against you later; and it's business code for "I won't give you any chance to paint me as the one who was the problem, but FUCK you!"
Just like IT guys to reinvent the wheel.
Folks, this is what UNIONS are all about. Don't like how the employer is treating you? Your colleagues feel the same? Form a Union or form a chapter of some larger union (e.g. Communication Workers of America).
A "mass departmental exodus" will get you fired -- whether that's self-desctructive for the company or not. A strike, on the other hand, has lots of law and precedent behind it as long as you follow the time-honored formulas. In some states, companies actually can't fire striking workers!
Perhaps more important, your company's CEO knows what a strike is. He learned about it in school when he earned his MBA, and he knows the formulas he's supposed to use to bargain with a union when one pops up in front of him.
Don't have strong enough convictions about the matter to accept the problems associated with unions? Then shut up get back to work.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
Given the state of the market and the fact that I'm unemployed, you do one of three things:
1) Put up and shut up
2) Talk to management
3) Quit
Simple
I've had the pleasure of such phyric "career changes" in the past when I couldn't tale how "stoopud" or "ignurnt" the analysts or upper management were.
:-)
I went from calamity to disaster always leaving a few weeks before the hand-writing was on the wall for the companies or the departments or the projects involved. Shit happens but it wasn't happening to me.
The last time, I actually waited for the manager to offer me my head on a plate and JUMPED at the opportunity to not let the door hit me in the ass on the way out. That bit of grand-standing saved my life (I worked on the 83rd floor at the WTC and lived next door,) but I ended up not working for a year. (Okay I must admit, I was rattled and worth shit for several months after my lucky escape. I slacked off and burnt through my 401k. But I was ALIVE.
Now I'm going employed again but I'm going back to school and looking for a better job NOT doing software development.
Life is good.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
I've had problems with my job working for a large company that's well known locally. I was seriously thinking of jumping ship, writing a scathing manifesto of the problems in my position and with my supervisors, and then looking for employ elsewhere. But since I don't have a job lined up to go into, I needed to get my finances in order to make such a leap.
I'm not good at saving and since my ex got the house in our breakup I don't have equity in much of anything that doesn't rapidly depreciate (car/computers).
I take at least 10% of my post-tax net pay and consider that off-limits. It goes immediately into long term retirement savings. This is above and beyond my 401K contributions. If I'm out of work I won't be contributing to long term savings so this is to fill that hole, but I found I had to take this out of my pocket first or I just couldn't learn to save it.
I cut my monthly expenses (rent, internet access, etc) from 40% to 30% of my net pay. No cable. One phone line. Do without heat or AC except in emergencies. The 10% saved went into paying off my credit cards and now goes into unplanned expenses. This also helps me become less dependent on those nice but unnecessary comforts so I won't miss them when I must cut to the bone.
I've started really being a tightwad about daily and spontaneous expenditures. This was where my biggest waste was. I now allocate only 10% of my net pay to food, gas, and these day to day consumables. If I have money left from this, I allow myself use it on computer books, dining out, and other spur of the moment luxuries. It makes it a very powerful incentive to save, but it was the hardest to get used to.
25% of my net goes to unplanned expenses. Car repair. Unplanned doctor visits. Rent and insurance price hikes. Stuff like that. This isn't to be used spontaneously, but it's not realistic for me to consider it "savings". Things will and have come up that have wiped out this pot of money and then some. But once or twice the pot has grown to more than $2K at which point I funnel the excess into savings.
The final 25% goes one of three places:
1. A kitty to pay expenses for eight months.
2. A pre-planned large purchase.
3. Long term savings.
The eight month expense kitty is a must have even if I wasn't considering quitting. I might get fired or laid off tomorrow so this is the biggest need.
The pre-planned large purchase is for something I need like a new car downpayment, a necessary computer upgrade, a training class, or a big birthday present for my dad's birthday. I keep it to one goal at a time and I know how much I need to save beforehand. It helps keep from getting carried away because I have $X burning a hole in my pocket.
Finally, if I have a full kitty and no preplanned item to buy on the horizon, I put the money into long term savings and don't think about it again.
It has taken me over a year to get disciplined enough to follow this method. There have been some suprises that have wiped out my plans. It's been really eye-opening to do this while I have regular income coming in. It's certainly not going to happen when I don't.
Finally, a couple of other things I've found are good to check out:
1. IRS filings. I paid someone to look over my returns for the past three years which I had self-filed. Good thing I did.
2. Credit rating and fico score. I was suprised that mine wasn't quite as pristine as I expected it to be (and VERY suprised at who had requested it)
3. Medical and dental health. Make sure that your in good shape because these expenses and health insurance will be much more expensive if not part of a company plan.
It's been more than a year to get in financial shape, but having not found a better job in the meantime I'm glad that I've been setting this money aside. Come my next paycheck I should have enough financial cushion to say goodbye if I want to.
One thing I decided to do though: Don't burn my bridges. I'm not going to write a goodbye manifesto to embarass
Have you tried to look for a job in Tech lately?
>when you are asked what steps you took before deciding to leave at an interview.
Remember that there's a huge taboo against criticizing former employers, no matter how much they deserve it. If you're a suit you may be able to get away with saying "fundamental policy differences".
If you find yourself trying to convince an interviewer that you were the good guy, you've taken a wrong turn.
I used to be in a very similar situation at this company in Utah. Management had totally fucked themselves and the company, and tried to make all of their development staff (upwards of 100 or so) work extreme hours to compensate. At the same time they had lapsed on payments to 401K, benefits, and had bounced a few paychecks.
I could see what was happening and left, but most of the poor schmucks there stayed, despite not getting paychecks week after week. This is why management can get away with treating programmers like shit. Many of them believe the "Oh, yeah, the money will be in next friday, so you'll get paid then" FUD that they spew.
WAKE UP! If you know that you're on a sinking ship, get the hell outta dodge!
At least someone did use the money more productively than sometwo else did.
There were two instances where our company's president said something to the effect that management was dissapointed at people who were putting in the minimum amount of time (40 hours). I have had vacation time denied because a project was in the works that I had written code for (code that was well tested and qualified). They wanted me to be around incase 'anything went wrong'. The only thing that went wrong was the other company not being available at all during the time I wanted to take off. This resulted in me sitting around writing comments on slashdot all week and working on low priority features all week. This has been their excuse for the last 2 times I requested even a friday off (DENIED). I have actually been called back in on my way home after a 12 hour day to fix bugs in code that everyone knew was not going to be released to the public. I dont think anyone here is getting paid accordingly, even with a huge corp. behind us, the salaries are weak. I have contributed a majority of the code in our software, there are comments all the time that if i left or was hit by a bus, the company would have to abandon ship. We are allowed 10 personal/sick/vacation days per year, all inclusive, no more. If your car breaks down on the way to work, there goes one of you vacation das. If you have the flu for 2 days, thats 2 days you will have to make up for. I have only taken 2 so far. I would be better off working for the US postal service. I dont think they know Im going postal, everything looks normal to management. Fsck this job! Im going to grep for something better.
TallGreen CMS hosting
I know because I worked at Cisco Systems and have been turned down for several lower paying jobs for exactly that reason (I called to find out why I didn't get the job and they told me).
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
The engineers and key people can quit and go start a competitive (or perhaps not-so-competitive, depending on what you signed when you were hired) firm. Some of you (i.e. all of you) will probably have to empty your life savings and go into hock up to your eyeballs, but hey, it's worth it. Oh, you'll probably have to work 60 hour weeks on the normal stuff, plus spend another 10-20 hrs each week doing the "odds-and-ends" that need to be done around the office like vacuuming, answering phones, cleaning windows, and scrubing toilets. Hiring some to do that stuff just depletes your limited financial resources. Paychecks can be "irregular", health insurance and taxes will eat you alive, and investors (if you can find any) will want 90% of everything, but hey, it's worth it.
The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
Who thinks this guy is whining about nothing?
50 hour weeks?!? DUDE, that's like every job I've ever had. I reguarly put in 50 hour weeks in periods when I'm not getting abused.
If you want to be considered a punch card guy and make punch card, working the line wages then go for it. If you want to make management or white collar wages and be considered in that group then you work 50+ hour weeks regularly.
Listen man, this isn't France where you get paid not to work, and this isn't Spain with 30% unemployment. If you were working 75-80 hour weeks then I could identify with you.
Whining about a 50 hour week... jeeeez.
-rt
Follow the parent posts instructions and be guaranteed never to get promoted.
Gator/Claria is Spyware.
Seriously. Sounds like a sh*tty place to work, but it's better than being unemployed (and my last job)...
You got it exactly. The problem is that the poster is unhappy with his job. Saying that they have too much work is just a lame justification. There's nothing wrong with wanting to leave if you're unhappy. Hell, you should leave if you're unhappy. But don't make up excuses. Of course, when you're unhappy with your job, ANYTHING feels like an unreasonable amount of work.
Don't have a job? Go work at McDonald's, I'm sure they'd hire you. Pretentious fucks.
helo wat is ur asl ?
I was in an analogous situation about 10 years ago. I worked for a large government agency charged with some responsibility for regulating a new and growing sort of business. It was a problem. The good people in that business were making good money but having problems navigating outdated regulations. The bad people in that business were ignoring all regulations, making more money than you can possibly imagine, and had nothing to fear from a regulatory enforcement infrastructure that was just coming into existence.
We spent three years studying the business, briefing lawyers who, in turned, briefed the Secy of the Treasury, and writing reports. At the end of three years, we had seen everything, done everything and knew every aspect of the business frontwards and backwards.
At our last group meeting, I told the group "The people in this room know, collectively, more about this business than any other similarly-sized group of people in the world. Let's all resign and start our own firm. We'll all be millionaires before the end of the next calendar year."
It never happened. Two of the key people were lifers with the government and had never paid any social security. The option of going out on their own, literally with absolutely no safety net for retirement or health problems, scared them to death. They refused to participate. Without them, the entire necessary skill set simply wouldn't have existed and even if the rest of us had jumped ship, we would have failed.
So we all stayed.
I was pissed. Then resigned. And then vindicated. You see, after several more years had passed, literally everyone at that meeting had approached me to say they should have gone through with it.
Ah, well. C'est la vie. I moved on to work that I thought was OK. Then I moved on to work that I dearly loved, so sticking around was ultimately a good enough choice for me.
Of course, a couple of weeks ago I got official notice that my job would be coming to an end at the end of 2004. One of the nice things about working for U.S. federal government and enduring our low wages is that when you're going to be downsized, there are rules that prevent it from happening without exploring other alternatives and you get plenty of warning.
So I'm looking. Being a lifer, though, my universe of potential positions is limited to the federal civil service. Anybody know any agencies hiring a qualified field investigator/Unix sysadmin/writer/photographer/frontline support tech/analyst....et al?
When I as in Grade 8, the school board in our area decided rather than cutting all teacher's salaries they would dismiss 2 teachers instead.
This makes sense except that it's union so those with seniority kept their jobs. We the students were really pissed off because 2 good young teachers were going to be axed and there were at least 5 teachers that were no younger than 62. 2 of them had to take insulin shots every 2-3 hours (and they did miss and go into shock on more than one occasion). 2 didn't care about their jobs anymore and it was evident in the quality of the classes. 1 seemed to think that nothing had changed since the 1890s and that a teacher should run their class via fear and intimidation. She was also becoming senile although she would blame this on her students 'playing tricks on her'.
One day at 9:30am EVERY student in the school (a junior high, grades 8-10) walked out and started protesting in front of the school. The principal came out and tried to dissuade us and was having a good go at it until the press and the TV cameras showed up. A group of the best speaking, most presentable students addressed the press and told them exactly what was going on. As soon as the parents saw the 6:00 news, they weren't so mad about their kids walking out as they were pissed that quality teachers were being fired so 'useless' ones could earn an extra year of undeserved wages.
The next day students from 10 other schools in the area did the same.
After 2 days of the school board receiving calls and letters demanding certain body parts of theirs on a platter, they reluctantly found other areas to make up the money instead of firing teachers.
This also shows one of the drawbacks of unions: sacrificing youth and skill for old age a treachery...
PS: Read your NDA. Most only cover the property of the company, not the 'dirty laundry' btw employees and management.
The GEEK shall inherit the earth...
A group of us (five total) quite and formed our own consulting company back in '97. We then turned around and sold our services back to the original company (three of us stayed on for about another year).
....one of the original five got greedy. We attempted to branch out into another area (software develpoment) but then attempted to merge with two other companies. After the dust settled there wasn't much left.
The money earned by keeping three of us at the company payed to keep our company running that first year. We then rode the Y2K wave of software upgrades which put us in a really great position $$$ wise. We were growing strong until......
Leasons learned:
Trust but Verify, Get it in Writing, Read What You Sign, Keep Abreast of the Companies Condition, Don't Get Greedy
RTFM? FTFM!!
I still don't see what have you got to loose by communicating with your management. I mean, hey! If they fire you for your crazy ideas of time management... then you can at least accept unemployment...
You quitting proves that the karma kap worked. The most annoying of the whores shut up. --CmdrTaco
Intelligent career management would indicate it's better to treat employees well on the way out so they don't try to sue you or steer clients/prospective employees away. It also would indicate that giving no notice when you quit is not going to help you if you run into one of your managers later on in life or if you were expecting a good recommendation.
But legally, I can term you for just about anything.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
The employer can fire his entire department, but who then would replace those workers? H1B visa sweatshopsters? If he can find them in time.
If he fires the whole department, he is likely to face a work stoppage so crippling that boiling hot shit would roll a long way upwards, or the company would go under.
The workers might or might not have a situation of no UI and a lousy reference, but the affected company might, depending on its size, not exist anymore.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
High wages in a boom economy is revenge. Although there are exceptions, most employers treat employees like shit. As labor, when the market allows it, which is rarely, you are totally justified in asking for more.
I've been in that situation for 3 years now. it's called not-for-profit healthcare! Imagine you are the only tech for a huge hospital with 3200 employees, and about 40-50% of the PC's at your site are still 200MHz!
I am BLaRG!
In Fast Food, even the managers are easy to replace. He didn't turn nice because he needed you, he turned nice because his boss didn't need a manager who provoked employees to walk out.
In this economy, the same applies to the tech biz.
Communication is the key. Never fear change. Use it as an opportunity for yourself.
I always like the opportunity a crisis can cause. Identify the issues before they are impacting you. Then approach the proper management in charge and provide a detailed solution at resolving the issue. Then present a detailed plan on how to implement your solutions complete with cost analysis, savings, pay back periods, as well as justifications.
After the presentation(s), collect their comments and if its a go-ahead, don't be shy with stating the rewards you seek up front.
You say Employees like sheep, I disagree, they like employees that look at for the company and are willing to help it in times of need.
As a person that has survived and prospered well during lay-offs and times of corporate crisis, I can assure you thismethod works and works well. Just be prepared to put the effort in to design a proper solution before approaching management.
Gator/Claria is Spyware.
If your employer can prove that you banded together to do this and did not follow proper labor procedures you could be opening your self for legal action.
As a previous poster mentioned, know your rights, then you may consider work slow downs as more effective (also keeps the bucks coming in the pay the bills).
However, you have to be careful with work slow downs too. Depending on your employers past history on dealing with labor conflicts they may see this as an open invitation for disciplinary action.
Best thing, talk to your government's labor board.
PS: unions are not the answer.
This is excellent advise. We consulted a well-regarded law firm specializing in intellectual property litigation before writing one line of code or drafting a single design document. We went so far as to go out of our way not to use any paradigms or algorithms from the previous company, even if they were considered general knowledge in the industry. That did not stop the lawsuit. I could go on and on about how frivolous the whole thing is, but unfortunately the goal wasn't to win the lawsuit, but instead to bury us in legal fees. They were successful in that regard.
Second, your manager's boss will already be on a personal level with your manager.
And the first thing he will do when you walk out the door is call your manager up and say, "Hey, Joe came in and bitched about something. What's the deal with that guy?" Now you're on everybody's shit-list.
-Ryan, with the unoriginal sig
Every once in a while you get managers who think that salaried positions + cellphone = free labor to be exploited
I once had to educate my boss about the realities of being "on call". He seemed to think that my staff would all carry beepers, and I would work out a rotation so that someone would be the primary contact for any given hour. It wasn't so much an "emergency response" capability as it was unpaid 2nd & 3rd shift operations via remote control. Comp. time doesn't work because every little "emergency" creates a coverage hole during regular business hours. I asked, "What do you intend to do when the beepers are simply turned off? Are you going to discipline people for not working hours that were neither scheduled nor paid?" Of course, nobody would put a mandated schedule in writing, and the underlying problem was that we were too thinly staffed.
Ultimately, common sense prevailed. We fixed some salary issues (people got raises, and therefore felt better about the beeper issue). We added an entry-level position to work evenings and Saturday morning. For those times when escalation was truly necessary, the new entry-level people had a list of senior staff with beepers who were quite willing to help.
+1 FUNNY
I'm in a sticky situation right now where I was hired on to be a Linux admin but now I'm writing product manuals for elderly computer users and developing a proprietary windows solution for our product. The trouble is, I've got a single boss, and the other person is the secretary. That's it, just three people. I'd not think of leaving, but I'm currently waiting on word that I'll be hired at an IT consulting company doing what I really want to do.
So if I get the job, how do I leave since I'm the sole full-time technical person?
BTW: when I joined on there were two developers, but they left a month after I got there and the 'company' took a completely different direction and I got pigeonholed into being a project manager for a windows solution.
As was mentioned before, unemployment only applies if you get fired, or do not leave on your own accord.
:)
Not according to my dictionary! From wordnet:
n : the state of being unemployed or not having a job.
What you're thinking of is technically referred to as "collecting unemployment insurance" (or being "on unemployment" for short), and is not a necessary corrolary to being unemployed at all.
Then again, "picking nits" technically refers to the practice of removing louse eggs, so maybe I'll shut up now.
An old employer of mine had a mixed staff: some union, some not. I worked in the analytical lab: one of the dozen or so instruments was designated "union." While I was there, Union Employee X was the only person allowed to touch this instrument. Luckily, Employee X was a hard worker and a decent guy: he even trained one of us to do samples on the QT so that everything wouldn't back up for 2 weeks while he was on vacation. The two previous iterations of X were not. They would come in in the morning and run the dozen or so samples their contract required. Finished by 10AM, they then read the newspaper the rest of the day. Too bad if you were one of the ~10 labs that needed a sample analyzed: you just had to wait until it got through the queue.
My personal favorite: distributing liquid waste cans was a union job. If you needed a waste can, you walked to the end of the hall and filled out a form and a union employee would bring you one eventually. Where were the new waste cans stored? Under the table with the form. But don't touch: I got reprimanded for carrying one back when I had forgotten a request the day before and the HPLC was about to overflow.
They didn't even do well by their employees. Shortly before I started there they went on strike despite wages and benefits well above the industry average. The company hired the salaried folks to work extra hours to keep up production. Productivity soared, errors dropped, and the union eventually slunk back to work with the same contract as before but no worker paychecks for a number of months.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
You misspelled pre-Madonnas (note capitalization, double-n, and hyphen). HTH.
Unless perhaps you meant prima donnas, from "first lady", a term borrowed from ballet that refers to a skilled, but expensive and demanding/touchy worker?
As an aside: remember the study that demonstrated that people that have low-average skills tend to (far) overestimate themselves (and others) and people that have high skills tend to (slightly) underestimate themselves? I think much of this "I've met buckets of skilled IT professionals that don't have jobs" business is just another manifestation of that study.
Q: So, why did you leave your last position?
A: Management acted in unethical ways so I decided it was time to part ways.
Lets face if you are being taken advantage of because you are good and you want to teach management a lesson have the whole department post their resumes.
Our boss actually received one of my guys resumes through Monster... It was hilarious.
I worked in a department with three other guys. Everyone posted their resumes and we all had job offers within the month. No it doesn't happen over night. I was last man out. I went to turn in my resignation and my project manager asked how much for you to stay. I liked my job. So I told them to match the salary I was offered and let me pick out the replacements for the team. I got a big ass raise and built my team from scratch.
After that guess what... It started all over again... (the guys that quit the first time had a good time with the "I told you so"s) so after two years I said screw it and left... The job I have now rocks and I wouldn't trade it for the world...
The morale of the story... The only way to change management is to change jobs...
Don't think going on unemployment is going to impress anyone.. It will hurt your resume and your credit report... You don't like the job your in, get another. If you are as good as you think you are there should not be a problem with this regardless of the market.... Happy Job Hunting....
They used to be run by doctors, at least the good ones were. Other forces, not present in the software world, are at work there. I'm sorry to hear things have gotten bad. It's one thing when a doctor willingly throws themselves into administration and active practice so that they work 60 hour weeks, and another thing entirely when a nurse is forced to do so for "budget" reasons.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I'm an orthopaedic surgery resident and I already have enough to do (working 100-120 hrs/week). The last thing that I want to hear is that the nurse couldn't get an IV in some patient after trying only for 5 minutes. I (and most doctors) already do plenty of nursing chores (start IV's, push meds) and the patients do just fine , thank you.
But I realize that we all are a team doctors, nurses, orderlies, techs and housecleaning. If anyone of us slacks -it makes the whole system unmanageable.
..........FULL STOP.
The squeaky wheel gets replaced, by some contractor from Romania
Love and kisses,
The Management
P.S., Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out!
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
I have heard it before! Is it from the Simpsons? Office Space? I just can't seem to remember.
"It isn't necessary to completely suppress the news; it is sufficient to delay the news until it no longer matters." - N
- You suddenly find yourself working 50-60 hour weeks, put on call with no compensation, given unreasonable amounts of work and generally treated like dirt
How did you manage to get your hours reduced in a financial crunch? Or were you only slummin' and putting in 30 to 40 hours per week before?Are there successful tech jobs that offer 40 hours per week limits? My wife would be so happy if I could work only 50 to 60 hours per week.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
gewg
Management realizes this and so freely puts such clauses in their contracts. I know because there was just such a clause in my contract when I started working at Cisco Systems.
When I got laid off I signed another contract for the severance package I received and it too had the exact same prohibition against enticing co-workers into quiting.
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
After something similar (but due to bad management rather than bad economy), I resigned and took a months holiday. At the end of the month I returned, negotiated better working conditions (double time for overtime and working from home) and started again.
However the intense period before - when we were working to meet a deadline - was too much (that holiday was to mentally recover - I did little except sleep and occasionally cry/shout/hit walls). I no longer care much about the company and don't enjoy working there (despite the better conditions).
So I'm looking for another job.
Conclusions, then:
- If you're critical to the business you can dictate terms (reasonably, of course)
- Don't leave it too long before doing something, or the harm may already be done.
http://www.acooke.org
1. Make sure everyone is on board. The last thing you want is for word to leak out.
2. Talk to a lawyer.
3. Seriously, no joke, talk to a lawyer.
When punk rock is outlawed, only outlaws will have punk rock.
Freedom is priceless.
Do not be scared by lack of money.
Just put aside enough and then tell your
greedy asshole boss to go fuck himself
(politely if you're still in good terms).
If you have a mortgage/family, well you only
have yourself to blame for the shackles
around your ankles.
Free your mind and the rest will follow.
It wasn't really an IT job, but it involves Slashdot'ish topics, so here we go:
:)
I was a sales associate at Software Etc. my senior year in high school. There were a few of us working there that collected the Star Trek : TNG CCG (or ST:TNGCCG) cards (which we sold at the store), including the assistant manager. One day the assistant manager went on break and was going to buy some of those three-ring binder pages to put cards in, but the store was really busy. So he put them back in the back room to pay for before he left, but he forgot to pay for them when he left.
That evening after getting home, he realized his mistake and went back to the store to pay for them. However, someone from corporate "loss prevention" was at the store when he came back and fired him for 'stealing' the $2.00 item.
Everyone at the store quit that night, except for one lone sales associate who really needed the job (and became the store manager shortly after this incident).
Here's the kicker: This happened the night before the release of the original Playstation
We all went to the assistant manager's house that night for a little party, and around 10:30pm or so, decided it was time to let the regional manager know that there wouldn't be anyone to open the store in the morning (the lone sales associate hadn't been trained to open the register or anything...).
The next morninig we went and watched as the 30 or so people on the reserve list for the Playstation showed up to a locked storefront. Several of the recognized us and asked what was going on. So we told our story, and Software Etc. lost several customers that day.
Ah, the things you can afford to do when living with your parents...
"... the advance of civilization is nothing but an exercise in the limiting of privacy" - Janov Pelorat
I spoke up about the 60-80 hour weeks I've had to put in at my company, and ended up getting written up for "insubordination", put on 30 days probation, and given a new job description (with no place for signature) which stated that I was to work from 9a-5p and any overtime that my boss deemed necessary for me to work, or I could be fired.
:-(
Now if only the job market didn't suck so much
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
__ __
0
_____
- Kill Yourself, spare us all! -
I do have to agree with some of what you are saying. And then again I have to agree with what the parent posted.
You need to keep communication lines open. But, this is like poker or dating (but some of you are unfamiliar with that). Don't let them see your cards. Don't let them have all the knowledge and power over you. Otherwise you'll end up getting bent over for all your worth and then discarded when they are done with you.
Man, at my last job we *dreamed* about getting "50-60 hour weeks, put on call with no compensation, given unreasonable amounts of work and generally treated like dirt". After the first round of layoffs, my job sounded like what you describe... ...but there were 4 more rounds of layoffs after that, and each time someone in my group got axed, I got their workload added onto mine.
Try 80-90 hour weeks, 7 months without a Saturday or Sunday off so I could finish a project that my boss took credit for, denied a promotion because the reports of that same boss showed I wasn't really putting in an effort, and constant Warnings Of Doom from everyone about how if I quit I'd never be able to find another job.
My health got shot to hell, my attitude got shot to hell, my *life* got shot to hell... one day a co-worker asked my boss if he was worried I'd quit, given the ludicrous conditions, and my boss replied "he'll never quit... I *own* him".
I put in my notice the next day.
Months later, I'm still in bad health, attitude hasn't really improved, and I have made the decision to let my college degree gather dust rather than go through that again. I'm looking at going into manual labor, if my health improves enough to allow it, and taking a handful of sleeping pills, if it doesn't.
So what was your problem again? To me, it sounds like you live in fucking SUGAR COATED *FAIRY*LAND*, cavorting with the fucking ELVES and UNICORNS and TELETUBBIES, and you're complaining that you don't like the flavor of fucking MARMALADE they put on your fucking TOAST.
If you are organizing such an exodus, you are placing yourself at great litigious risk, particularly if you are a profit center for the company. The company can sue you for damages and the courts tend to favor employers.
You may also be unpleasantly surprised at how few employees actually quit. It's one thing to talk about it. It's another entirely to walk out the door, especially if you have responsibilities.
By the way, the job market for IT totally sucks. You must be prepared to wait it out for almost a year (or more) in some markets. Make sure that you've got a healthy nest egg, because unemployment compensation is not in the cards if you decide to leave. Depending upon your state, the employer controls whether or not you get unemployment. They would certainly protest your filing.
My advice is to not settle for a second-rate job. That kind of stress is not worth it. You shouldn't have to constantly watch your ass for the next person with a sharpened instrument who wants to stab you in the back. You shouldn't have to play office politics and wonder if everything your coworkers say have double meanings or wonder what their real intentions are. You should work with and for people that are looking for doing the best possible job they can a turn out the best possible product available to the users. You shouldn't work with or for people that have no ambitions farther than maintaining their own job security. We don't all have to work in an "Office Space"-like environment. I've been there. It's just not worth it. Stress affects every part of your life. Cut your losses and leave. You're loved ones and your stomach will thank you. Can you say no more Maalox?
This is Slashdot, bashing Microsoft is always on topic. :-)
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
No, but there sure is a small circle of executives who make those tough decisions while on the way to the golf club in their 7 series BMW for a nice lobster dinner. The company I work for just cut vacation. I get 1 week a year now. I also have to take it before the fiscal year end on 9/1. So there's now no time to accrue vacation before christmas. How nice. And those altruistic beings who are just looking out for the company? Let's see how quick they are to give back that benefit once the economy turns around.
Oops, your cynicism dial appears to be stuck at "11".
Sometimes you're right and the people in charge are stupid, selfish bastards who'd sell their own mothers for a bigger box on the org chart. But in far more cases those vile "executives" are just like you. They're doing their jobs as best they can given the resources at their disposal. It might feel better to pretend that everything they do is motivated by personal greed and callous disregard for the workin' man, but it probably isn't true.
Have you ever had a paycheck bounce? I have. Have you ever had your employer siezed by the IRS for failure to pay payroll taxes? I have. Have you ever been promised bonueses on eight separate occaisions and received a fraction on one only once? I have. Have you ever been fired because your manager thought you were better than him? I have. Have you ever gotten in trouble for not predicting the future or reading someone's mind? I have. Have you ever predicted a project's failure months and millions of dollars in advance? I have.
"Have you ever had your toes gnawed off by your bosses' rabid pet weasles, while he dances through the office snorting coke and singing opera off key? I have!"
Wow, bad run of luck there. Frankly, it sounds like you really need to choose your employers a bit more carefully. Or find a new career. And maybe a good therapist.
And you'll be the first to be laid off. Employers want sheep. If you want to keep your job, act like one. Tell them nothing because they're certainly not volunteering any information. If you don't like your job, find another one. But never let them know you're looking. Otherwise, they'll remove you before you have the next job lined up.
Yes, because all employers just love to fire good people who are dissatisfied! For no reason! And they love to expose themselves to legal liability and pay lots of money, too! Because they hate hate hate you!
But, hey, I'm a sheep who's got a nice job with a boss I actually like, so I'm clearly too far gone for my opinions to matter. Baaaa.
The work culture in this country sucks. And it's time for a change.
Slashdot: Changing the world one bitter rant at a time.
One individual in a large team, maybe. A large team with thousands of man-hours invested in a given project? Not likely. The company could never replace the collective experience it lost, and even a replacement project team of the smartest hackers in the world would be hard pressed to catch up for months.
If there was cheaper labour around who could do the same job just as well, wouldn't the company already have hired them instead? I thought you had "at will" employment in the US?
If this sort of stuff is happening, then (a) it's probably worth a mild pay cut to get out if necessary, and (b) within a few months you aren't likely to have much of a job where you are anyway.
I've seen this before. Typically, in companies that survive, a few good people leave, management wakes up to the fact that conditions are not acceptable to the workforce and those who remain get an improvement in pay and/or conditions that is enough for them to stay. If management doesn't wake up fast enough, too many good people go, and the project fails.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
At a couple places I've worked I've know departments that resigned in mass, wel at least the majority of the department. It had no effect the companies just transfered and hired ASAP and moved on. They adjust their schedules and move on. Sometimes if a single person is key to continuing on they will make an indivisual and offer that can't be refused to stay or stay longer enough to do a knowledge transfer. So in long run all you've done is lose a job, and have a tough thing to explain at your next interview.
No, but there sure is a small circle of executives who make those tough decisions while on the way to the golf club in their 7 series BMW for a nice lobster dinner. ...Neeeya never be able to afford BMW 7 Series, Neeeya!!!
That's all. I love that clip.
Reminds me of one time I was fired by an employer... I was so stressed out about the work that I said some very nasty things.. I was fired. A month later, the boss hired me back, WITH a 20% raise, and NO S41T from him for months... 8 months later, I told him where he could shove it, and got a new job making even more dough....
So, where did all of this get me? Well, a house and a car that's almost paid for, but right now I'm unemployed! haha.
Some states prohibit unemployment to "fired" (with cause) workers. A layoff is termination without cause. Firing is dnagerous to employers, because they bear the burden of proof should a lawyer shark come after them.
Who are these "employers" you speak of?
Everyone at a company, from your immediate supervisor up to the seniormost chief executive, is an employEE. You're all in the same boat -- you do what the owners and/or shareholders want, or you suffer the consequences.
That is the worst idea anyone has ever had.
You might want to group together, talk to your employer and suggest they outsource IT - to your own new company. Then you can charge them anything between $100 and $150 an hour. Perhaps it would be beneficial to your relationship with management to paint them a picture of what it would cost them to have an external IT company do all the work you do at a rate of $75 an hour or more. Naturally the risk you run is that they'll find a company in India to do your work....
Of those to whom much is given, much is required.
Payback's a bithc:
Call OSHA about your work stations
Call the health department about your employee cafeteria
Call the Fire Department about those boxes stacked in the stairwell.
There isn't a company in the world that follows all the regulations - make 'em pay.
Damn. I live in Boston off of $818/month. It sucks since my apartment is 700/month. Now I am living off of student loans. Where the hell in Boston were you living (Beacon Hill?) that you couldn't live on 1600/month well???
Tibbon
tibbon.com
An employer does not have the right to demand uncompensated overtime for a prolonged period of time. Doing so constitutes changing the conditions of employment. The last time I checked you are enttitled to refuse such changes, without losing your eligibility for unemployment.
If this were not the case, nobody would ever be laid off. Employers would just make their jobs progressively worse until everyone quit.
There's something sick with the economy. It seems to prefer working 4 people to death while 2 others are unemployed rather than just having 6 people have jobs.
It would be wonderful if all engineers refused all overtime until all of the qualified engineers who are currently unemployed were back at work -- but I'm not holding my breath.
While I totally understand where your frustration comes from, not everywhere is like that.
Fortunately, it's a happy coincidence that a well-treated workforce is a more effective workforce. Keeping your staff sweet isn't just good manners, it's also good business. By cutting you down to only one week of leave, your employer has all but guaranteed a burnt-out workforce who will repeatedly take sickies within months, until they all quit because of the stress anyway. Even if they stick it out, they'll be out the door in a heartbeat when the market picks up.
The smart employer looks at ways to improve things for their staff as a priority. Happy staff are productive staff, and benefits follow. Some perks are effectively free if your working conditions don't prevent them: flexitime and pillow days come to mind. A few extra days of leave each year, or a $100 bonus to everyone in the product team when the release goes out, do cost, but they pay back many times over.
Although you seem to have had a particularly bad experience, there are smart employers in the world. The workforce owe it to themselves to go find the smart employers, so they can be more successful than the stupid ones, who will then go out of business, improving the overall smartness of management by evolution. :-)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Face it, workers always have and always will negotiate from a position of weakness. The only exception to that is when there are unions.
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
The company I work for just cut vacation. I get 1 week a year now. I also have to take it before the fiscal year end on 9/1.
This is illegal in some states. IANAL, but the company I work for tried to force everyone to take their vacation before the end of the fiscal year.
It turns out that they're not allowed to do this in my state (California): They can have a policy that asks people to take their vacation, but they can't just delete accrued days: They have to let me take them in the next fiscal year, or (if I quit or get fired) pay me for them.
I work for a large company and last year, when we were all facing layoffs of thousands of employees and no raises, the CEO had the unmitigated gall to send a video to every market which we all had to sign a paper that we watched.
In this "rah-rah" video he said, and I swear I will never forget this, we all had to buckle down and tighten our belts for the good of the company. And as a "funny" aside he whined that afterall, his children were in danger of having to attend a public university instead of an private one! He then talked about how he had gotten hell for giving himself, and all the big wig execs, a raise but that he felt it was a 'better value than his predecessor!'. His raise amount? 56%. Yes, you read that right.
We've got people working here, slaving actually, who can't afford to send their children to a freakin' community college, and he's complaining that his precious babies may have to go to a public university and that his 56% raise is a "good value for the company". I have never been so infuriated in my life.
Loyalty? My loyalty and dedication is to the people I work with every single day; this company can go to hell.
You should go ahead with the walk out, that'll show'em.
p.s. please forward my resume to your boss:
www.youreadumbfuck.com/resume.html
thanks
Here is the bottom line on pretty much any job I've ever had or seen any of my friends have (with one exception): always look for a better job. If you have power in your job, leverage it. If you don't, lay low and look for a situation or a job where you will. Walk out as soon as you find a better deal. Treat the company you work for as expendable.
Because, believe you me, this is *exactly* how they feel about you.
... consulting services back to your employer at 3x the rate....
That's what CEO's do when they 'retire'.
Chris.
-- I don't have a cool sig.
Yes you sound exactly like a doctor.
;) Its not that I don't like doctors, or don't respect them, its just that, ive worked at a hospital, ive dealt with you guys. Its impossible to work around alot of doctors for long without developing quite a sense of humor about them.
Seriously man, im being mostly tounge in cheek. (mostly
Frankly I think its how nurses (not that I was a nurse, I was in desktop support, so I had exposure pretty much across the board). Don't get me wrong, nurses have their quirks too, they are just as insane as you doctors.
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Schlumberger does the same with their employees and they walk out in masses too.
I laughed out laud when I heard Schlumberger does the better to keep key employees, what they don't say is they only keep they managers who fit within the dilbert principle nicely.
Want an example here is your answer:
Houston did have a problem.
I was agreeing with you right up until you suggested using your retirement money to buy Doritos and pay the rent.
So you use up your retirement account to get by until you are earning again, at which time you start replenishing your retirement, until the next layoff. Rinse, repeat, and soon you are 60 and have about 5-7 years to make up 40 years of mortgaging your future.
There is no replacement for compound interest in saving for your retirement, and treating that money like a revolving loan means certain doom for your future. Once the money is in your retirement account(s), you must forget you ever saw it and leave it there to do it's job, which is to ensure your survival after you are no longer able to work. Planning for a rainy day is not a job for retirement funds!
Ick. Exactly why a useful lawyer will tell you there's no absolute protection.
...
My sympathy is utterly useless but you have it.
If anyone needs a concrete example of how bad things can get, one company sued a group of executives who left and sold a product that their former employer had failed to develop. The argument? They said that the knowledge of what approaches were dead ends was a trade secret. Yep, the former employer said they'd succeeded because they stole the former employer's secrets of failure.
Some of the defenses you can use are on the business side, not the legal side. They're also often out of the question:
o Leaving on a warm, fuzzy basis. That's about as rare and difficult as a "friendly divorce".
o Working in a field outside the former employer's business. Tough to do while using your professional skills.
o Not working for reptilian psychos in the first place. If only they came with warning labels
Once I was in a company that ordered us to be on call 24 hours 7 days 52 weeks a year. Supposedly they were going to work out compensation. But the months went by and nothing happened. We called in the union. Unfortunately they were only interested in creating trouble and working up a base in the It shop which they could levereage for other disputes.
We spoke to management and we agreed to hand back the pagers and try again later once they had their act together.
This produced some bitter feelings... I would be very careful to involve unions in the future.
Later, I was hired after a mass walkout. The PHB had been moved sideways as a consultant - a lot of the problems had been his management style. The payments for being on call and for callins had been fixed, and we were looked after very well.
The guys who left did well - they became contractors. But times are hard at the moment. The 1990s are not coming back any time soon.
One piece of advice. Do not burn your bridges behind you. Word will get around if you deliberately damage a company and you will be forever paying.
Even if you all leave together, I would portray it as a coincidence, not a conspiracy. If you must say why you are leaving, say that the long hours are affecting your health.
If you really have them over a barrel and they have to hire you back, do not gloat over it or rub it in. Portray it as a simple business deal.
People hate being screwed over, even PHBs!
well sometimes the outcome is that the company finds a way of executing everyone in the mass exodus.
For the lot of you to get together, and decide to act as a unit, not by walking out, but simply by working the way you think is fair, within reason.
Draft a letter, signed by all of you, about the bad working conditions. Make a few demands, pointing out that they are perfectly reasonable: 40 hour work weeks as a rule, not an exception. No unpaid on-call time. And most importantly, no retaliation towards individuals out of your group for the time being. Point out that if people are fired from the group, the others will not take up the slack for the time being. Slow down your work to a reasonable amount, and do the work you DO choose to do well. Make it clear that you are good resources, but that you will not be pushed around due to managerial incompetence.
It's true that you may be an important group, but so are other groups, if you change your perspective.
You can get a lot more and be more professional than simply all walking out.
I think Homer said it best.
"If you dont like your job, you dont strike, you just go in every day and do it really half-assed, thats the american way!" -Homer Simpson
Baa-baa! Blakeh, you bleet like a typical repulican sheep. Corrupt, criminal employers are MUCH more common than corrupt unions. Please, go somewhere else with your retarded republican views.
Youâ(TM)ll be laid off soon when the company dies. From my experience that is what normally happens. At least thatâ(TM)s what happened the last three times I went through the same situation
The two most common things in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
I had something similar happen with an ISP I worked for. The entire engineering team walked, including the senior tech that had built the entire network from the ground up. Never heard from them after that.
The language of the parent post is disturbing in its own right:
"...you were all sh*t disturbers..."
"Nobody needs agitators..."
"rightly brand you as a trouble maker."
One need only pick up a copy of John Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath" to see that you have unwittingly plagiarized the witticisms of "employers" during the Great Depression. Individuals who attempted to organize themselves and protest against the poor (understatement) working conditions were called "agitators," "trouble makers," and "reds" (i.e., communists) and were placed on blacklists (i.e., blackballed) that prevented them from getting work anywhere else. It was the formation of unions that saved our workforce from tyrants who made sure that mass revolt wasn't possible.
The Death Penalty: Killing people to show others that killing people is wrong.
OH look,a slashdotter finds himself in the real world,lets all shed a tear.........get over yourself and move on. punk ass!
Some erroneously say things like, "the sign of a mature industry (or that which is reaching maturity) is mass consolidation. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mature means stable here and if the market does not reflect the Industry then it is most definitely NOT mature. I personally think that in the next 30 years we will see a wealth of innovation thanks to small mom and pop business becoming more the norm. Sure at the end of that 30 years we will probably once again see a mass consolidation and then go through another cycle of mass incompetence, corruption, bureaucracy and general stupidity but then we will then fire up the small business escape algorithm once again.
The problem as always is that the entrenched bureaucratic Industry will not resort to competing to win, but will choke out and destroy annoying competition through its army of lawyers and shady wanna-be ASSassin suits. I hate to call them businessmen because a businessman focuses not on eliminating competition but on cultivating such a following that they are the first choice as decided by the market.
However, fear not if you are a worthless manager (by name, not by action) as there is always government contracting. A nice little (hehe) socialist system in which competition is frowned upon and Red Party favortism is the accepted method of business. If you have the best product/service at the best price and compared to the competition are ahead in everything from extensibility and consulting based or just out of the box adaptability to that of being the most secure and such... then I sure hope you have hired a couple of O-6's and above and even better some deputy directors and above of the various agencies. If you have not then try sticking to the capitalist world as government contracting may not be the best thing for you.
In Communist Russia, Exodus results in Mass Departmental Execution!
`which fortune`
A thought... you could just "slow down". Work slowly, stop doing things, make sure you only put in 40 hrs / week.
"Lisa, if you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way."
Employers do not care how talented you are, or how
much you contribute to the good and well-being of the company, ie "how well the customers are served".
To think otherwise is to ignore one truth:
The world is vastly overpopulated with willing workers.
Why is this?
l. Advances in medicine and nutrition.
2. Control of timeless scourges such as the mosquito, and various diseases, such as Influenza.
3. Hunger and famine in the developed world has been almost eliminated.(That's where you work)
4.The limited impact of wars, probably caused by the rise of democratic governments. One example: We now know that General Douglas McArthur wanted to use quite a few A-Bombs in the Korean war, but this didn't happen when he was fired by President Truman.
Another: Democratic governments such as USA and Britain stopped the Nazis from developing A-bombs, which Hitler would have used "a lot of" had they been developed.
USA and Britain did not use WWII bombing methods in Iraq, so less than 4000 Iraqi citizens were killed. In WWII, whole cities were bombed with devices that were designed to set the entire city on fire, killing many many thousands in one raid. President Truman thought he had to use the A-Bomb because an invasion of Japanese home islands was to have cost up to a million U.S. servicemen's lives.
So, many many people live, no longer in fear of death from war, famine or disease. Employers can pay low wages, and if you complain, you can just go out the same way you came in, and they don't care.
I heard that if somthing the past employer says causes you not to get a job, they are liable.
Lets say a person is hired by a company, hourly not salaried, to do system administration. Well throughout the employment the person was asked to do a website for the company. The site isn't finished yet, and still being worked on daily in addition to normal sys admin tasks. The conditions at the workplace have deteriorated rapidly and the pay certainly isn't consummate to the workload. If the person were to leave whether it be by resignation or laid off, what are the legal rights the person has in terms of taking the code for the website with him when he goes? Whether or not the company folds or stays in business seems irrelevant in this case, but if the person leaves and decides to take the website and any other work he's done with him, what are the legal ramifications of doing this? Mind you it's not a contract position, and there is no contract at all, and certainly nothing about ownership of code, project schedule etc.
"I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin"
I did this once working as a bus boy. The boss was irrational, even paranoid. He decided one evening to mircomanage getting the restaurant ready for opening and interrupted every necessary task, telling us to get started on something else. After nothing got done on time, he then attempted to blame his staff. I explained that he would need a new busboy next week and then the other busboy, both waitresses, and the hostess told him the same thing.
The upshot was counter-intuitive. None of us quit, we all recieved raises, and I was promoted to waiter. The lesson I learned was that employers need staff, managers need staff, and they occasionally need to be reminded of this.
When your comment is deleted by /.
You can have half a century of work experience to back up the information in your post, and all that gets you is a big fat Zero here. No sense telling all these young people what will happen to them!, Let them find out for themselves! Well, I tried.
Make friends with the accounting folks, especially if you're in a small company where it is easier to mingle with the higher ups. I remember one staff meeting about 1 month before the first round of layoffs occured: The CEO said things were going good, not as great as they had hoped (one contract had refused to pay on time), but even with that, they (the company) was break-even for the year (ie: If the contract had paid, they would have made a profit of a few million).
After the meeting, the head accountant mentioned (privatly, of course), that, yes, on the surface that this was true, but that was failed to be mentioned were that the upcoming payments, bills, bribes (Ex corporate officer made off with millions, and is on a plan to recieve more money each year for so many years to keep from going to court), etc. That things were not looking good.
1 month later, they fired the temps at corporate hq (3 out of 48 people), three months later, the fired the remaining 75% of the corporate headquarters, moved the business development division out of state, and let got rid of the CEO. (Who was actually concerned about the people who worked at the company. I visited with him, and even worked on his home computer, so I got to know him a bit.)
Listening to the accountant, I learned that the company was on shaky grounds, and wasn't supprised to be laid off. Even if I survived both rounds of lay-offs, I would be looking for another job, as this company is effectivly in clean-up mode.
Have heard of this happening lots...especially during dot-bomb when companies were taking advantage (like you said, long hours etc to help cut costs)...you have to have the cash to start something yourself (which takes a lot of work and $$) because no other company will touch you as a group (especially if it's a small programming community like some of them out there)...the one thing that goes through the heads of prospective employers it that if they take on the group, then they'll have no control over them...nothing to stop them walking out again. And if you're the ringleader, or one of them...no one will touch you...no one wants to hire a developer that has the power to pull and entire department away from the company...watch out...could be a long time in an unemployement queue if you get a bad rep from this.
It's funny that this topic comes up occasionally. Let me tell you a (true) story.
About a decade ago, I was working for a medium-sized computer retailer. I had just joined the technical services group, and work was brisk.
This group was responsible for providing technical support both for internal systems, and for fulfilling external customer support contracts.
This was back in the time when there was still some money to be made selling hardware in a retail environment, but when margins were already starting to fall. It was pretty obvious to everyone that the happy days of Porsche-driving salespersons was coming to a close.
This company had the answer half-right in that they saw computer services as a way to stretch their profit margins on their computer sales. More importantly, though, they saw professional services as a way to get into customers that they would normally have no access to.
Where they still had blinders on, though, was that they were at their root a retail sales organization. Everything revolved around the salesperson's ability to close the sale. If that meant that services - either basic configuration or detailed consulting and programming - had to be provided at a cut rate, that was fine as long as the company closed the hardware sale.
The problem was that the services group had their own P&L and budget. Worse, we didn't get credit for the hardware sale in any form. Add to this, our ability to charge-back our services costs (especially when they were discounted), was minimal. But our compensation was based on our P&L.
We were able to offset this for a while by selling services contracts somewhat outside of the regular retail sales chain, but soon even that was being eaten away when the company brought in dedicated sales people to sell support contracts under a different group.
What all this meant was that we were all working 60+ hour weeks with less and less pay.
So we started to plan.
The manager of the group started delaying the close of most of the support and development contracts 'in the pipe,' at the same time that the services support sales group was doing a great job of selling contracts. He also rented office space and convinced the rest of us in the group that things were not going to get better staying with the company. We could do better on our own.
On July 5th (yes, the timing was deliberate), he had a meeting with the management of the company, where he handed them letters of resignation for the entire group. We had also coordinated our mass resignation with the resignation of the person responsible for supporting the POS system for the company.
So now this company had NO technical support people, a large number of signed support contracts, and a large number of hardware sales contingent on cut-rate support and installation. They had already purchased much of the inventory for these sales, and faced a cash-crunch if they were unable to make the delivery.
We offered them a way out.
All they had to do was transfer all of the previously-sold contracts to us... We would take them over, essentially without compensation, but with the ability to renew the contracts under the new company. All the contracts in the pipe would be 're-sold' to the new company, so that we had an instant source of income. Additionally, we would be available to help the old company's corporate sales division continue to close higher-end customers, in return for ongoing access to their customer list.
So...
It's almost 10 years later, and our original parent company has long-since dive-bombed, folded, and dissolved into oblivion.
If you walk into the front door of our office, you'll probably notice the one out-of-place piece of art in our otherwise utilitarian-geek environs... It's a sculpture of a golden goose that used to sit on the CEO's desk at our old employer.
Sometimes things DO work out right.
Years ago I was unknowlingly part of a mass departure from a company.
The co. I worked for at the time was generaly screwing over everybody on our team and each and every one of us were looking for new positions.
It just happened that 18 of 20 person team that had developed and supported the co's core product jumped ship in a 5 week period.
The company was never able to recover and went belly up. That gave me far more satisfaction that a childish tantranum could ever had.
Just for the record, there is NO "off the record" record.
Make a record of that.
When the economy sucks, the capitalists rape the employees, demanding more and more, squeezing them like a lemon for their drinks. When the economy booms, the employees demand more and more for themselves.
What's the difference? People are acting like shits either way, and they're both doing wrong, but you also have to look at where the harm is. Do I harm the company by demanding more money and benefits? Maybe; they factor that into their costs. If they can't make money the company tanks. But: the executives do the same thing whether the economy is good or bad and often, these days, drive the company into the ground themselves.
On the other hand if the company squeezes the employees, the employees suffer not just hurt, but harm. They don't like the stress; yeah it's unpleasant, but there are also real-world effects from this stress. Their health suffers. Their families suffer. When the employee comes home and has half an hour to eat, clean house, discipline their kids and try to come down from a bad day, something important is going to get skipped. Their children end up being raised by Jerry Springer and MTV. A frustrated employee lashes out at their spouse, their kids, and everyone they encounter. That anger passes into society, and the poorly-raised children grow up to commit crimes, or have emotional problems. People have all this money and no time to spend it living life, so they throw it away in empty consumerism. The employee is now driving a vehicle twice the size of a '75 Buick, and the environment is filled with pollution and garbage as all this crud spreads throughout the world.
All due to the greed of the company.
O~ Him that studies revenge keeps his own wounds green. -- Francis Bacon
Spare a thought for those overworked nurses and doctors of our emergency rooms and hospitals.
Lawyers who are in their own practices can control their hours like most other professionals, and lawyers for governments or corporations generally get treated like other employees there, but junior partners in law firms pretty much get treated like harassed overworked programmers except they've also got to wear suits and aren't supposed to shoot each other with Nerf-foam rockets over their cubicle tops.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I don't work in the software side of things (I repair hardware in bank machines), but the concerns most of you bring up seem to suggest that an organized union would benefit IT workers. Has anyone ever tried forming one in a tech company? If Macdonald's employees can make it happen (happened to one in BC) surely the educated can do it.
This was after the late-80s boom and the early-90s slump, but before the internet boom made Silicon Valley totally silly. It was about as close to a normal market as things get around here. Most of them did pretty well.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
here is the scenario:
After my first year as IT Manager I orchestrate a major building move (Data wiring, PBX programming, etc.) I could have quit in the middle of the project (to get more money), but I didn't. The reward for that, no Christmas bonus (the year before I got $600 for doing nothing). The excuse: money is tight. PHB had a nice laugh as he drove home in his 2001 Porsche 911 (NOT KIDDING). That is what started it. I had bitch for raises that were promised to me, and perhaps the most frustrating thin of all is dealing with managment that has NO technical skill and is not interested in acquiring any. (After two years, I still got a call from PHB at home because his printer was jammed.)
Then my wife gave me the best birthday present ever. She said I could quit and her income would suffice. So I gave it a week (to make sure finances were correct) and then I quit on them. Why no two week notice?Good question. These guys were assholes. I watched time and again as they laid off people who had worked there for more than 4 years with no warning. Come to work, "let go" bu lunch. No severance package, NADA. This pissed me off, so I decided not to give them any warning.
The morning I quit, Vice Pres calls from Mexico. First thing out of his mouth "Do you want more money" FSCK YOU!!!!!!! Where was that money at Christmas? Or if I deserve more money, where is my raise? Quitting was the best damn thing I ever did. I am now self-emplyed and will never look back. My advice, always look out for yourself. I don't care if you and your boss wife swap, you are NOT friends and they will can you in a moments notice.
And it was great. We walked out in the morning, went up the street and got breakfast. Half way through breakfast we realized that we *probably* should have picked up our paychecks first. DOH! We all finished our breakfast, went back for our paychecks, and were met be a much friendlier management team that was all of a sudden very concerned about what we had to say. We kept our jobs and the main manager that was the problem lost hers. The whole experience was incredible.
If you feel your doing a good job and like the job but not the way you're treated by your employer then why not start your own company? Take your whole group at once and let your current employer know they can hire your new company. If you work as a group you have more power. Of course be sure you have enough savings to afford the jump. :)
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
This is what works for me. Make some serious job inquiries. Determine your market worth and make a list of your acceptable working conditions. Then, make a professional proposal to your management. Maybe do this as a group. Let them know that you are seriously thinking about leaving and let them know why (never underestimate the how unaware managers can be). I bet that your company will make some sort of compromise with you and make you professional life happier without your having to leave the job that you once loved.
Hey, it can't hurt.
I worked for a Data Imaging Company, originally started at AMR. We had our own imaging program that would scan the images (applications, bilss,etc) and ship the stuff to Santo Domingo to be keyed. I was an operations weenie. We were bought out by a larg company... they wanted our market share, not our expertise. Even though we were responsible for 60% of the revenue for the division, they weren't in the software business and decided to shut us down after two years.
w hat-is-right-until-it's-time-to-pay-out clause).
Their offering to stay was pathetic. So the programmers and VP got together and told them they were forming their own company, and would offer support. If they didn't want this deal, that was OK because every one of the programmers had job offers elsewhere. Black mail? I like to think of it as shrewd work politics. Within two years they were a multi million dollar support company. But after the dot-bomb, I've lost contact with them.
Personally I got a job at an ISP and doubled my pay within a year. Which was a lot better than what that company was offering to stay for the same amount of time, a non-guarenteed $10K (you know the old, if-you-do-everything-right-but-we-won't-tell-you-
I tend to think this scenerio worked for two reasons. First, it was an in-house product. You're pretty much screwed for support if you lose the people. Second, the programmers had somewhere else to go. So continued work for that company was purely by choice. That is something we (Sysadmins, tech people, etc) don't have today! I'm still amazed that my current ISP employer pays good $$ to kids, and I mean kids, who can't even look at a log file when there are so many intelligent, responsible people out there who are out of work and willing to work for far less $$ just to stay in the field.
So unless you have a holy grail that only your group creates and supports, I would think twice.
Granpa told me about them in the 30's it stood for
I Won't Work
Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
Gotten a paycheck from a poor man?
Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
Who's Sara Freeman?
Who cares what managers think. Their ACTIONS speak for themselves. Managers sure know how to talk their way around the mess they often leave behind them but not everyone is dumb to the point of actually believing what they say. Sure, there is the occasional brilliant manager out there. I must have seen maybe, three, in ten years. The rest deserve all the contempt and suspicion you can think of, with good reason : they're all looking after number one and screw everyone else, especially anyone underneath them, because they usually can get away with it. Of course, some people say that you shouldn't think like that because it's going to harm your career. Ha! That's right, bend over for the Man ! He sure will thank you for it ! But reward you ? Keep dreaming. Only exceptional organizations driven by truly gifted people get any real respect from the lower echelons. They are quite rare. Being clever is not showing that contempt and suspicion until you are ready to make your move. It is NOT disneyland out there, people !
one skill level, even most people can see that some are better than others at somthing. while Mr A is a code whiz Ms B can clean his clock at repairing an air conditioner I know that I am a hell of a lot better with a welding stinger than I am with a keyboard.
Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
Corp. America is about getting the job done.
The job doesn't have to be done right, just done.
Go ahead and walk off the job. You won't be missed.
Things at work may be worse than when you were there but life will go on.
If the place is run so poorly that it will suffer you r loss, it will probably fail with or without you.
Get the resume together - NOW.
Parent AND grandparent posts are GREAT!!! I have personally witnessed both.
I think the bigger the company the more chances you have for your boss to help you, as it only takes his word to the HR department. He says how good you are, and you get a little extra. Of course they usually pay less, following a pre-defined scale. If you take a pro-active approach the boss appreciates your honesty, he knows more, itâ(TM)s not his money and his position is not in jeopardy. If the business need to cut, they will cut whole groups, not just employees here and there.
On the other hand a âstartupâ(TM) style pays a lot more when you get in, and ask for a lot more work time and diversity of talent, but when things starts going bad, they are a lot harsher.
And believe me, the worst is when the âmanager/leaderâ(TM) between you and the CTO or CEO is getting squeezed too. He will not move a finger to help, and use anyone as a scapegoat each chance he gets. To him your complaint only mean he his doing things wrong (and are often right about it). The last thing he needs is your negative comments. When the cuts start, itâ(TM)s usually the name they heard the most often with negative comments that goes first. So he dont want to you talking to his boss, and you better make sure he does not talk about you in a negative way.
And of course in the startup the 26 year old CTO will NOT cut his benefits, he will give hell all around, because he donâ(TM)t really know why things are so bad, and the next thing you know everybody are covering their asses. And the spiral of death is started.
Our CEO announced cutbacks in 2001, a few employees let go, vacations cut and no salary increase for the year, then left for 3 weeks of vacation in February, just after the X-mas vacations!!! You bet everyone was so motivated and respectful after that one.
Oh! And new investors making your stock options worth 1 cent, but we are keeping the exercise price at 1.40, and âoerevising the strike price is probably illegalâ.
How much money would I need to defeat the army of lawyers Cisco could hire and how many years of litigation would drag on before the contract was thrown out? Whether it's illegal or not doesn't mean shit if you can't afford to defeat it.
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
I was in a similar situation a year ago. It was a small company that had the idea of growing into a big company, but had no action plan, and no idea how they were going to get there. All the staff had gel'd into the best team I have ever had the pleasure to work with. As the company was small, we were all being paid less than we were worth, but the idea of helping something to grow was exciting.
After about a year and a half with the company we realised that all the "good ideas" about growing big were just dreams and talk. The team got together, came up with ideas to help the business, and sat down with the owners to come up with an action plan -- result, a lot of hopping around by management but again with no direction, and no result. We figured if we have to manage management then it is time to leave. A couple of the guys broke away shortly after that to start there own business. I lasted until just after a vacation. I came back from that vacation ALIVE, and realized just how much the job stress was killing me, and gave my notice a week after returning.
In a fortunate turn of events. The day after my last day at the old job, I was being flown off to interview for a job that quadrupled my previous salary. My quitting the old job that was dragging me down, put me in the right place at the right time to land a big time job that I love, and that pays be extremely well. Had I not quit that job, I would never have had the opportunity that I have now.
I was fortunate. Things could have turned out differently, but if you are unsatisfied with your life, and too scared to try and make it better, then you will always be unsatisfied. If you keep trying to make it better, and face the fears and uncertainties, then you will face hard times and frustration....but these will pass, because you will also find success somewhere along that road!
Life is too damn short! Start looking for the life you want now!
The end result will be that the company suddenly switches entirely to Microsoft products,a nd outsources the entire IT organization, not just your department, and that's the end of it. Then they make a big public announcement that they restructured, and cut a lot of jobs, stock goes up briefly, and they disavow all knowledge of your existance.
Sandra Keller aka Sultaana Sultana Freeman
Not Sara Freeman, sorry, it is: Sandra Keller, who married Mark Freeman, aka: Abdul-Maalik Freeman, now she is Sultaana Freeman, aka, Sultaana Kaiana Myke Freeman.
Like all cults, Islam greets members. She used to be Christian. She was photographed for a mug-shot for abusing foster children. Islam makes people beat children. Anyways, her mug shot.
See the cycle of abuse and cultism... Looks like the kids would have been better off raised Christian so they didn't have to suffer abuse in their formative years.
Murder supporter, death monger, killer of God's Creation, Agent of Satan, False Prophet, Hubris laden psychotic cultist bastard. We will find you and catch you in the act of wrong doing and then make your familiar with law, order and the mores of productive, progressive society.
Look:
The Islamic terrorists and the society that encourages them, fosters them, promotes them, idolizes them, chooses to murder non military targets unprovoked.
Like rich people paying progressively more taxes for no reason better than they have more to loose, the US and other well developed countries have a knack for kicking your fucking head in for pissing in the cake mix, we have more to loose. Being on top only has one direction to go in: down.
You fucking cult doesn't understand diplomacy, talks, understanding. Your cultist religion precludes functional governments, shown over and over again for centuries, it precludes science, reason, feeding the majority of the indigenous population.
We are sick of Islam the cult and Muslims trying to pull us down by cheating. You animals have no educational institutions to speak of, your mind is clouded by deprecated religion and law, your governments define the meaning of corruption, your beliefs are incongruent with rational thinking.
I invite you to beat us fair and square... Try writing better software, or build a better mousetrap. Even excessively small countries like Sweden, only 9 million people, can make planes, cell phones, cars, etc.
Your foul, disgusting 1 billion strong cult of Islam cant do anything. Nothing. You fucking retards cant make shit. You do nothing. You amount to nothing. You are modern uruk-hai, disposable minions of a dark lord and dark force. You are only powerful because of your number. Your inventions are primitive. Your methods are primitive. And we will slice you at the neck when you pop your head out of the swamp because we are tired, having suffered the least, already of having buildings blown up and whiney bitching idle threats and towel-headed burka bitches infect our lives.
Your backward, unaccomplished hordes of cultist shit will defeated by logic, or you will succeed in destroying our race.
I worked at a place that was exactly as you describe. We were the engineering dept. and the upper management made commitments to customers that we had to keep. I personally was working 70+ hours a week for months with one 93 hour week. We had to fill out time cards so everyone was aware of the workload. We asked for but were given NO compensation (time off or money). It went from one project to the next until the entire department was pressed to work those hours. We had a meeting and discussed our options. We shot our resume's out to the headhunters and some of us waited for those that had to have a job to find one. It didn't take long. We then left, all 10 of us. They still haven't recovered.
Do not do anything until requests are submitted through official channels, signed by the appropriate managers, with all the forms filled out. If there are contradictory rules, do nothing. If someone wants you to override a procedure, ask them for permission to do so, in writing, signed by theur manager.
... you don't understand:
"I am leaving the company, I don't give a rat ass about what they do".
Now again, what about those replacements?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
One employer I had laid off half their technical writers by making the announcements during a whole-office staff meeting just before the Christmas lunch party ... after spending several thousands on each of us to train us in some expensive publishing software. When the economy dragged istelf out of the gutter, they couldn't hire anyone back. I wonder why.
Simply, an employee is in no position to demand outrageous stuff from their employer, neither during good not bad times.
In the other hand, during good times the company can demand that you are fully devoted to it (we are growing!We can't keep up with demand! Work 80 hours for us please!) and during bad times even more so (if you don't work 80 hours we will go under! ).
Think: would you ask any service provider to work for your for fre one or two hours? No, most probably because you lack any leverage as an employer. Companies on the other hand can demand that and more and most people do not have the balls to say "no, please read my contract" or just to ignore the request.
WHen I sign a 9 to 5 contract of employment I do work from 9 to 5. Do you want me to work extra? Show me the money baby, that applies to any time?
Will they replace me? Maybe, then I will adjust to the new market lowering my expectations, I will sign a contract and I will not do anything more that waht is absolutely required.
This policy has served me well for many stress free years of full employment in many companies.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The US is not in a recession, there are many jobs out there, not all on IT, not all where you live.
Retrain and relocate and you will never suffer unemployment for long.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It is personal interests.
I always weight my interests first, those are the ones that dictate the decisions I take.
My company is not my family, my friends or my live. People that fail to understand this and make clear demarcations find themselves victims of sentimental blackmailing like the one you use.
I have seen so many times the most loyal and commited employees being royaly scre%ed that it amazes me there are still people out there believing all this tired "do it for the company" crap.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
... we know that and say what you want to hear: "oh yessss, I will stick around until hell freezes over" and will give you a double speak about why we left with th uptmost regret but wishing them all the best.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Right now in France, we're struggling against a Thatcherization of the economy and of social conditions. Yeah, call us strike-prone, lazy, cheese-eating surrendering monkeys if you like (though this sounds more like US neocon drivel), but this is a battle I'm not willing to lose. And it looks like if we lose this battle, the French Socialist Party won't be any more help than the Labour is at the moment in the UK...
Cheers
In Soviet Russia, our new overlords are belong to all your base.
Ok, so your claiming the company is in deep fiscal shit. So first what would the impact of a mass defection/departure of your departments personnel have on the company. If, as you contend, that it is essential and an integral part of the company's ability to conduct business, and hence stay solvent then it might be assumed that your people are in a position of some power.
Now, if it proves correct that leaving would cripple the company in a meaningful way look at those in upper management. Do the CEO, department presidents/VP's, CFO's, CIO/CTO's, etc, etc, yada yada still get compensations like quarterly bonuses? Is the CIO and CEO salary on a scale that equals x times so many workers?
The point is this. IF your department is getting done to them what so many corporations are doing as SOP. That is they are scaling down the work force to cut expenditures while mandating more responsiblity and increasing the workload. All the while kicking out bonuses and financial percs to the upper echelon with a continuing stream of revenue and returns for the share holders, then it may very well be time to send a message to the whitest of collars that it is unacceptable to continue with this form of exploitation of the work force.
All too often we have seen companies and corporations that force layoffs, increase work loads, mandate overtime without compensation while the executives continue to experience the same, if not increasing, profits and percs. It must be realized that if upper management or the market has taken a hit to a company that putting the thumb to the work force without having the share holders, board members and chief executives share in the hard times is unacceptable. Often times the bonuses and other percs, like plump retirement packages, amount to the cost of a whole division. This is done on the perception that a qualified CEO can benefit the company in a way the garners both a lucrative and competitive edge. However, if the company is failing financially it can be construed that management has failed as well. So it needs to be realized the punishing the workers for the captains inability to guide the ship is no longer going to be tolerated. Until this becomes a trend expect CEO's and other high end execs to get richer regardless of their or their company's performance and workers to be expected to do more for less.
Contact the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, and ask to talk to someone in organizing for communications sector. I am a brother and some IT departments are union. Move only as a unit, however. If someone refuses to walkout, you are screwed.
Almost but not quite. Produce two different resignation letters. One giving two weeks notice. The other terminating your employment immediately. Clean out all your personal crap before taking the letters to the right person, you may not get to come back for it later. In person, tell them you are leaving the company. You then negotiate the severance. Get what you want, you give them the one with the two weeks.
So what is the point exactly?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
... that you have to resort to this measures I am pretty sure that there is no trining whatsoever.
..... :-P
Thus, if you take a couple of office hours to re-train each other, for the life of mine I can't see how that would be considered "cheating the company[tm]"
Manager: What the hell are you doing you lot?
CodeMonkey: We are teaching each other our valuable skilz.
Manager: but you are cheating on comPANY TIME! Your days are numberd nerds.
CodeMonkey: uh, you promised 2 weeks of training per year last time. That was 5 years ago and we have had none, so we are taking things on our hands.
Manager: carry on boyz! Iniciative, I love people with iniciative...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
but did he make the mat? yes he did! might take a full bpdy cast: but its possible.
Why are you looking for a job?
Because the current (or previous if you are brave and organized) one was not fullfilling my needs, ambitions and potential.
Why did you leave your previous job?
The company was clearly abusing the trust I have deposited on it during the time I was employed by them. They made unreasonable requests that were never met with appropiate recognization or compensation.
Would your former employer rehire you?
I don't know, you have to ask that to them.
So waht exactly is your point?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Man, you're ripe for The Capital by good old Marx.
If you care about the company or other fellows then you would give them plenty of notice, make sure they find a replacement and do all you can to train that replacement.
Of course, if they'd totally screwed you over you wouldn't be having these reservations about leaving, so it sounds like you respect these people.
Don't screw them by leaving them hanging.