A big part of the problem is that the hyperbole about the terrors of DRM seen at Slashdot and other places doesn't correspond to the reality of how people perceive their DVD players and iPods.
Admittedly, DRM could have terrible consequences, but right now a key part of the next generation DRM is the "managed copy" bits which the consumer ironically perceives as granting them *more* rights rather than less because the copying features are integrated into the product. You see this already in Apple's Fairplay system.
Actually convincing people that DRM is worse than their nifty new consumer products is a difficult problem. Arguments about pubic domain and (academic) fair use don't have much traction among consumers. And the "boiling the frog", "road to fascism" arguments honestly come off as over-the-top and kooky, even if they are plausible.
Google Toolbar is a good program for those who use IE
It's only good if you turn off all the spyware features that send every URL you visit to an advertising company's profiling servers. (The advertising company is Google, BTW.)
Clearly, I won this debate. Maybe if you keep repeating this, you'll start to believe it yourself.
In reality, your arguments were strawmen, your evidence vauge and purely faulty, you failed to stick words into my mouth, and all-in-all your rhetorical and intellect skills have been demonstrated to be rather shoddy. Maybe that's why you're such an utter failure as a troll on this site, while I am so glorously successful. Lah tee dah.
I didn't bring up Quartz 2D Extreme and obsess over it to defend Microsoft's latest flop
Hmm, and I thought was being critical of Microsoft. Oh, I forgot -- you're as insane as a homeless guy babbling to himself on the bus, except that you somehow can afford Apple products. I think your posts speak for themselves, good night.
This is a good litmus test. If someone is bragging about something that's turned off, reportedly broken, and practically useless to the ordinary user, it's a pretty good sign that they are a very simple brand-loyalist uninterested in having an honest discussion. You win at that!
And, as I've posted elsewhere in this discussion, WinFS was a radical and unrealistic "shoot the moon" idea anyway, so I'm hardly suprised they failed at it. I don't have any personal worth invested in it (unlike you and announced OSX features apparently), and agree it will probably make more sense as an obscure SQL Server API.
I'm pretty sure you're just trolling and trying to picking a fight now.
Actually my only point was that even ultra-secretive Apple sometimes thinks they can deliver a feature that they can't. Big whoop. It's the zealot faction (of which you are a proud member) that turned this into a fight and a trollfest because someone wasn't goosestepping to the Apple Logo with enough enthusiasm.
Your comparison is factually wrong. Q2DE is built in to Tiger, but disabled by default
Since, factually, that's exactly what I posted, I am factually right. It's inert code, not doing anyone any good except to zealots measuring their penii with it. I expect to see it when I drop my $120 for 10.5. And I like how you cited the same arstechnica.com "hype" that I did.:P
And. for the casual readers -- WinHEC and TechEd, where WinFS was demonstrated, are developer conferences -- but of course you know that OCG.
Enough arguing with FUD-Spewing Zealots. You want to pretend that Apple didn't hype a technology that never amounted to anything [because it perhaps might avert one sale from MS to Apple], go right ahead and enjoy your delusions. I'm planning on running both 10.5 and Vista and don't give a fuck about the rhetoric of single-OS loyalists.
Um, the only thing I said about "innovation" is in my.sig. As a RedHat user, I have no opinion on ReiserFS other than it's a bad technology to compare to WinFS.
And I'll point out that any manipulation of ReiserFS metadata is ReiserFS specific, so for anything greater than homebrew utility scripts, developers would be creating features dependant on a filesystem -- which in general is not a desirable thing for most.
Windows is a slow, complicated hodge-podge of new and old code going back decades.
Ironic point to make in a comparison with OSX, which is also a slow, complicated hodge-podge of new and old code going back decades. I think you've reached the FUD-Overload point for the day.
starting with Bill Gates' Longhorn demo, every Microsoft employee blog, every Channel 9 video on the subject, etc
This is all developer marketing (hint: msDn). My point is that Apple and Microsoft are doing the same thing -- hyping developer features that will indirectly turn into consumer hype. For some reason you and your buddy have a completely double-standard about this, perhaps caused by irrational sexual lust for Apple products.
When your developer conference comes with slogans such as "Redmond, start your copiers", don't even pretend it's not part of a consumer marketing program. The point was to hype 10.4 Tiger.
And when was WinFS discussed in a non-developer setting by Microsoft? (Maybe it happened, but I can't recall.)
Still, nobody brings up Reiser in a WinFS discussion because it's a good POSIX-style fileystem. The impression people are trying to leave that it lets you do something that other filesystems don't.
(And it probably does, but much like how NTFS has a bunch of features that 99.9% of Windows programs ignore, nobody in the *nix world wants to write a filesystem-dependant application.)
And again, it really has nothing to do with WinFS, which was an application-level API anyway. And apologies for the PHBism:P
An OS-level CMS is probably a good way of thinking of it. This would pose a huge challenge to change how nearly all existing applications work, and probably would suggest a major overhaul of MS Outlook and Access as well.
By packaging it with SQL Server it becomes more of a developer tool where the right sort of applications can be built around it rather than turning the universe upside-down. Too bad, because it might have been interesting.
Yup, I was hoping that simple question would cause a zealot to spaz out and start spewing FUD. Thanks!
Re:Stronger Copland Simile
on
WinFS Gets the Axe
·
· Score: 3, Interesting
"Copland is to Mac OS 8 as Longhorn is to Vista" seems to be becoming more true every day.
I hate this analogy because it's completely free of any context to the business situation. When Apple was talking up Copland, they were getting their profits killed by Windows 95 systems, and they badly needed an OS with basic modern features like Preemptive Multitasking and Memory Protection [both of which you left off your list].
Windows XP needs a fair amount of refinement, but it doesn't really need a Copland/OSX style major upgrade. [What you call a "real solution"... to what problem?] Microsoft took it upon themselves with all these "Apollo Program" scale features that nobody was really asking for, and they couldn't really deliver. IMO, they would be much better served with sorter, more incremental updates to XP much like Apple has been doing with 10.2/10.3/10.4/etc, and just integrate these things when they're ready.
Anyway, nobody called Apple's Quartz "a cosmetic upgrade" when it came out, and Vista still has the more advanced Avalon imaging model, so perhaps you should pull back on the hyperbole.
This was a feature announced to combat the imaging model in Vista. It's in Tiger, but disabled so it's never used. I suspect it will be brought back to life this WWDC.
call it genius marketing, I call it deception at all costs to keep their customer base intact.
I don't know who would call it genius marketing. Promising a way-out feature and then not delivering really just makes them look even worse when you add in the Vista delay.
By the way, most flamers in this discussion have no idea what WinFS was supposed to be. It wasn't a filesystem!
The impression was that it was supposed to be a Great Leap Forward in how applications interact with stored data. It sounded like such a radical change in how personal systems operate that it's really no suprise that it got scaled back/dropped/whatever. People comparing it to various Linux filesystems which are used conventionally aren't getting it.
Completely agree about the keyboard/trackpad issues. I have a PowerBook G4, and while it's fine for desktop usage, I actively avoid taking it places just because of the noobishness and poor feel of the keyboard and trackpad. And what's the point of a laptop if you don't want use it on the go?
I would really like to give Apple $2500 and replace my Windows laptop, and almost did, but that's a lot of money for a machine with such obvious flaws. Now with the hardware issues, I'm really glad I waited, figuring everythign won't be sorted until the Core 2 models come out.
And while I'm offering to send Apple money, it would be nice if they had an overpriced docking station as well.
Slashdot Mirror
A big part of the problem is that the hyperbole about the terrors of DRM seen at Slashdot and other places doesn't correspond to the reality of how people perceive their DVD players and iPods.
Admittedly, DRM could have terrible consequences, but right now a key part of the next generation DRM is the "managed copy" bits which the consumer ironically perceives as granting them *more* rights rather than less because the copying features are integrated into the product. You see this already in Apple's Fairplay system.
Actually convincing people that DRM is worse than their nifty new consumer products is a difficult problem. Arguments about pubic domain and (academic) fair use don't have much traction among consumers. And the "boiling the frog", "road to fascism" arguments honestly come off as over-the-top and kooky, even if they are plausible.
Google Toolbar is a good program for those who use IE
It's only good if you turn off all the spyware features that send every URL you visit to an advertising company's profiling servers. (The advertising company is Google, BTW.)
Clearly, I won this debate.
Maybe if you keep repeating this, you'll start to believe it yourself.
In reality, your arguments were strawmen, your evidence vauge and purely faulty, you failed to stick words into my mouth, and all-in-all your rhetorical and intellect skills have been demonstrated to be rather shoddy. Maybe that's why you're such an utter failure as a troll on this site, while I am so glorously successful. Lah tee dah.
I didn't bring up Quartz 2D Extreme and obsess over it to defend Microsoft's latest flop
Hmm, and I thought was being critical of Microsoft. Oh, I forgot -- you're as insane as a homeless guy babbling to himself on the bus, except that you somehow can afford Apple products. I think your posts speak for themselves, good night.
Quartz 2D Extreme = actually shipped in the OS.
This is a good litmus test. If someone is bragging about something that's turned off, reportedly broken, and practically useless to the ordinary user, it's a pretty good sign that they are a very simple brand-loyalist uninterested in having an honest discussion. You win at that!
And, as I've posted elsewhere in this discussion, WinFS was a radical and unrealistic "shoot the moon" idea anyway, so I'm hardly suprised they failed at it. I don't have any personal worth invested in it (unlike you and announced OSX features apparently), and agree it will probably make more sense as an obscure SQL Server API.
I'm pretty sure you're just trolling and trying to picking a fight now.
:P
Actually my only point was that even ultra-secretive Apple sometimes thinks they can deliver a feature that they can't. Big whoop. It's the zealot faction (of which you are a proud member) that turned this into a fight and a trollfest because someone wasn't goosestepping to the Apple Logo with enough enthusiasm.
Your comparison is factually wrong. Q2DE is built in to Tiger, but disabled by default
Since, factually, that's exactly what I posted, I am factually right. It's inert code, not doing anyone any good except to zealots measuring their penii with it. I expect to see it when I drop my $120 for 10.5. And I like how you cited the same arstechnica.com "hype" that I did.
That's like somebody chiding Microsoft's support of AFP, Apple's network filesystem protocol.
Actually, Windows is extremely popular as an AFP server, nearly if not more popular than OSX Server.
PC World articles describing Longhorn aren't MSDN.
And the Ars Technica 10.4 Hype article I cited is not Apple. So what.
All the Channel 9 videos aren't MSDN.
http://channel9.msdn.com/
And. for the casual readers -- WinHEC and TechEd, where WinFS was demonstrated, are developer conferences -- but of course you know that OCG.
Enough arguing with FUD-Spewing Zealots. You want to pretend that Apple didn't hype a technology that never amounted to anything [because it perhaps might avert one sale from MS to Apple], go right ahead and enjoy your delusions. I'm planning on running both 10.5 and Vista and don't give a fuck about the rhetoric of single-OS loyalists.
Um, the only thing I said about "innovation" is in my .sig. As a RedHat user, I have no opinion on ReiserFS other than it's a bad technology to compare to WinFS.
And I'll point out that any manipulation of ReiserFS metadata is ReiserFS specific, so for anything greater than homebrew utility scripts, developers would be creating features dependant on a filesystem -- which in general is not a desirable thing for most.
Windows is a slow, complicated hodge-podge of new and old code going back decades.
Ironic point to make in a comparison with OSX, which is also a slow, complicated hodge-podge of new and old code going back decades. I think you've reached the FUD-Overload point for the day.
starting with Bill Gates' Longhorn demo, every Microsoft employee blog, every Channel 9 video on the subject, etc
This is all developer marketing (hint: msDn). My point is that Apple and Microsoft are doing the same thing -- hyping developer features that will indirectly turn into consumer hype. For some reason you and your buddy have a completely double-standard about this, perhaps caused by irrational sexual lust for Apple products.
When your developer conference comes with slogans such as "Redmond, start your copiers", don't even pretend it's not part of a consumer marketing program. The point was to hype 10.4 Tiger.
And when was WinFS discussed in a non-developer setting by Microsoft? (Maybe it happened, but I can't recall.)
Still, nobody brings up Reiser in a WinFS discussion because it's a good POSIX-style fileystem. The impression people are trying to leave that it lets you do something that other filesystems don't.
:P
(And it probably does, but much like how NTFS has a bunch of features that 99.9% of Windows programs ignore, nobody in the *nix world wants to write a filesystem-dependant application.)
And again, it really has nothing to do with WinFS, which was an application-level API anyway. And apologies for the PHBism
Index Server and NTFS metadata exist as well. The point is that's an apples-and-oranges comparison.
An OS-level CMS is probably a good way of thinking of it. This would pose a huge challenge to change how nearly all existing applications work, and probably would suggest a major overhaul of MS Outlook and Access as well.
By packaging it with SQL Server it becomes more of a developer tool where the right sort of applications can be built around it rather than turning the universe upside-down. Too bad, because it might have been interesting.
Yup, I was hoping that simple question would cause a zealot to spaz out and start spewing FUD. Thanks!
"Copland is to Mac OS 8 as Longhorn is to Vista" seems to be becoming more true every day.
... to what problem?] Microsoft took it upon themselves with all these "Apollo Program" scale features that nobody was really asking for, and they couldn't really deliver. IMO, they would be much better served with sorter, more incremental updates to XP much like Apple has been doing with 10.2/10.3/10.4/etc, and just integrate these things when they're ready.
I hate this analogy because it's completely free of any context to the business situation. When Apple was talking up Copland, they were getting their profits killed by Windows 95 systems, and they badly needed an OS with basic modern features like Preemptive Multitasking and Memory Protection [both of which you left off your list].
Windows XP needs a fair amount of refinement, but it doesn't really need a Copland/OSX style major upgrade. [What you call a "real solution"
Anyway, nobody called Apple's Quartz "a cosmetic upgrade" when it came out, and Vista still has the more advanced Avalon imaging model, so perhaps you should pull back on the hyperbole.
Not the same thing:/ 14
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.4.ars
This was a feature announced to combat the imaging model in Vista. It's in Tiger, but disabled so it's never used. I suspect it will be brought back to life this WWDC.
Even Apple talked up a major feature for Tiger which they never delivered on. (Quartz 2D Extreme or something like that.)
call it genius marketing, I call it deception at all costs to keep their customer base intact.
I don't know who would call it genius marketing. Promising a way-out feature and then not delivering really just makes them look even worse when you add in the Vista delay.
By the way, most flamers in this discussion have no idea what WinFS was supposed to be. It wasn't a filesystem!
The impression was that it was supposed to be a Great Leap Forward in how applications interact with stored data. It sounded like such a radical change in how personal systems operate that it's really no suprise that it got scaled back/dropped/whatever. People comparing it to various Linux filesystems which are used conventionally aren't getting it.
What applications leverage these features in ReiserFS and ZFS?
Just use the Windows Scripting Host!
I'm suprised that Slashdot hasn't mentioned that these machines use RedHat Linux. Yes, people complain about the boot-up time.
Since it's a standard Pentium 4 PC design, it seems pretty obvious that the player software will be "liberated" eventually.
If you want to pull in a IE hack stylesheet, check into the conditional html comments that IE supports. Much better than using a CSS-hack.
<!--[if IE]>....<![endif]-->
I agree it would be nice to see something this supported more universally.
Completely agree about the keyboard/trackpad issues. I have a PowerBook G4, and while it's fine for desktop usage, I actively avoid taking it places just because of the noobishness and poor feel of the keyboard and trackpad. And what's the point of a laptop if you don't want use it on the go?
I would really like to give Apple $2500 and replace my Windows laptop, and almost did, but that's a lot of money for a machine with such obvious flaws. Now with the hardware issues, I'm really glad I waited, figuring everythign won't be sorted until the Core 2 models come out.
And while I'm offering to send Apple money, it would be nice if they had an overpriced docking station as well.