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Toshiba Subsidizes $200/Unit on New HD Player
WestTexasWaltz writes "According to a teardown analysis, Toshiba is losing $200 per unit, of its new HD DVD player, in order to gain some marketshare. Interesting that integrated circuits account for more of the cost than the drive itself. Also, this particular analyst concludes that Blu-ray and HD-DVD will "not be a repeat of VHS vs. Beta" and that a stalemate is the likely outcome."
What a crock. Thanks, but no thanks, I'll just stick with DVDs until Blu-ray loses this battle and the prices come down on HD-DVDs.
The cheap china manufacturers coming out with units that play both HD-DVD and BluRay discs... and pick up a player cheap at WalMart (or whathaveyou) for $100.
It's DVD-R and DVD+R all over again. Only with slightly better picture quality, if you have the right setup.
Oh great now there will be two drm laden piece of crap in my living room if I care to watch movies without worrying about the format.
Toshiba is losing $200 per unit, of its new HD DVD player, in order to gain some marketshare.
I thought it was supposed to be "illegal" to sell a product below cost.
Or maybe that "law" only applies to Microsoft.
I don't give a rat's ass about HD-DVD or BluRay or any new format... until a player comes out (third-party hacked or not) which overcomes the MPAA's nefarious ideas about region encoding or forced chapters. If you want some market share, grow some balls and deliver a machine that plays the media *I* purchased anytime that *I* want to, without sending a colorectal scan to the governments and corporations of the world. And while you're at it, make false advertising phrases like "Own it on HD-DVD today!" completely off limits.
[
I predict the winner will be... DVD!
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
I'm suprised that Slashdot hasn't mentioned that these machines use RedHat Linux. Yes, people complain about the boot-up time.
Since it's a standard Pentium 4 PC design, it seems pretty obvious that the player software will be "liberated" eventually.
Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
So, is the fact that they're massively subsidizing the HD-DVD players a sign of trouble for Toshiba, or like everything else is it only a bad thing when Sony does it?
Anyway I for one will just sit and wait a few years until Samsung finally gets their way and gets to start making hybrid players that support both HD-DVDs and Blu-Rays. Samsung's said they want to, they're just being held up by consortium politics. I think those consortiums will get a little more lenient once time passes and they realize everyone's still just buying DVDs.
If that's true what will end up happening is that anybody who makes a player to play both will end up paying twice as much in royalties. Good times.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
I don't happen to agree with the analyst that the format war won't be a nightmare. But maybe I'm wrong.
So, the best test I can come up with is asking early adopters if they plan on buying either player, or if a dual format player if it were available. Slashdot tends to have a lot of early adopters, so how about it? Is anyone chomping at the bit for these things, or will the format war and the "good enough" state of current DVDs relegate this product to the likes of Laserdisc and Sony Minidisc?
AccountKiller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_poli cy)
It's only illegal if they are selling for a substantially lower price in foreign markets compared to domestic markets. So in Japan, if they sold it for $2000 (US), then it would be dumping.
Otherwise, all free products would be illegal.
I know how a definitive winner could come about. Sometime before Christmas this year, Blockbuster and Netflix and Best Buy get together and agree to evaluate both the HD-DVD and Blue-Ray on terms of quality and price. Then they declare a winner. There is no way in hell either Blue-Ray or HD-DVD would survive if all three of them together said, "We don't want to stock more than one type of hi-def DVD. And this is the type we choose." Whichever they chose would thrive and whichever they dissed would die. Of course the longer they wait, the harder it will be to break the stalemate.
The only places HD-DVD are even mentioned anymore are Xbox 360 sites and a few tech sites like this one trying to generate hits in portraying some sort of 'format battle' with BluRay.
The battle was fought last year. HD-DVD lost badly. The studios have rallied around BluRay. As 1080p TVs fall into the sub-1000 dollar range over the next year there will be a battle between people sticking with the old DVD format. And then life will move on with BluRay until the next standard comes about a few years later.
Predatory pricing is only illegal when it is done to acquire or sustain a monopoly. Toshiba is in no way a legal monopoly, whereas Microsoft is a monopoly and has been legally declared such in court.
It's kind of like how owning a gun is only illegal when a convicted felon does it. Do you complain about the injustice there?
Like a gun, it's not predatory pricing itself that's illegal. It's what you do with the predatory pricing that's illegal. Toshiba is in this case not doing anything anything in their action of selling HD-DVD players below cost which qualifies as illegal.
Exactly what is this a repeat of? Place your votes now! 1. Greedy attempted monopoly verse Greedy attempted monopoly 2. A company actually wanting the end user to get a great product at such a low cost the company itself will lose money on the item. 3. The first wave of Top Level Anti Sony Stop Blue Ray at All Cost Rebels 3. All of the above.
Since I don't follow Blu-ray vs HD-DVD too closely, is Toshiba the only manufacturer of HD-DVD? What is their incentive for marketshare in this area?
From the article:
I heard that video game consoles being loss leaders was an urban legend, perhaps due to faulty analysis. The companies, especially Nintendo, break even pretty much at time of launch. Or may take a slight loss but nothing like $200 per unit.
Wow, such insight. Given that the reason we had to "choose sides" before was that VHS and Beta were analog systems and were physically incompatible, I don't understand why anyone with half a brain would compare it with this. It seems downright obvious that what we're probably going to end up with is combination HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players. Evidence DVD[-RAM|-R|+R] drives. The only argument left is whose obnoxious DRM is going to ruin the party.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
They cost the optical drive at $200. There are multiple hard-drive or network-based devices available right now, capable of playing HD video that can be bought at retail for substantially less than the manufacturing cost of the toshiba player, after adding $200 for an hd-dvd optical drive. surprising that toshiba wasn't able to match this.
Specs: P4, 1GB RAM, 256MB Flash, 32MB MirrorBit Flash. And apparently runs Red Hat.
Is that overkill or what? Sounds like they don't have all the decoding hardware ready, so they went with that. Otherwise, all decoding could be done on a specifically designed chip, not needing anything as powerful as a P4, and I don't really see what they want that much RAM for. The flash size can probably fit the required parts of the OS without any trimming. Either that, or they've got lots of graphics there.
Sears has HD-DVD players for $500. Honestly not that bad, except my DVD player is fine. When I opened the drive, it looked like a DVD. Said it was HD-DVD of course....but the videos playing were Mpeg4 (Mpeg4 on DVD likely).
Unfortunately Sony is taking too long to deploy Blu-Ray. I seriously think the lesser technology is going to win (once again).
What I have not seen so far is any kind of convincing argument that explains why the combination of a Blu-Ray drive in every PS3 along with higher capacities does not mean pretty much an automatic win for Blu-Ray.
Yes the PS3 is expensive. Put that aside for a second, does anyone doubt that millions will sell in the US alone within months of the launch? That then in turn is a few million consumers that will be able to play Blu-Ray media, and you know Sony is not going to pass up a chance to push Blu-Ray along with the PS3 including some Blu-Ray media in the PS3 box.
Contrast that against the still very expensive Toshiba player, and less than thirty HD titles. How long will it take to even get 100k units sold?
Studios would seem to agree with this assesment as there are more studios backing Blu-Ray than HD-DVD.
On the computer front for storage alone, why would you buy an HD-DVD burner when Blu-Ray discs hold more data, and the blank discs themselves seem to be cheaper (in a Slashdot study of Japanese HD media a few months back the HD-DVD 20GB media was more expensive than Blu-Ray 25GB media).
I can't see personally how the situation looks anything like a stalemate. It looks like a rout in the making. Would HD-DVD even be around if Microsoft was not still backing it? And would HD-DVD even still be pushed by Microsfot if it was not for HD-DVD using Microsofts own menuing system for movies (for which they would of course collect licencing fees), not to mention Blu-Ray using a menuing system based on a form of Java? Microsoft seems to be backing HD-DVD more out of hubris than anything else.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
While Sony, by cramming a $500 to $600 PS3 down our throats, has decided to lose the war.
...
It's that simple.
Look, the major revenue is not the players themselves - it's the licenses for the patents from the manufacturers, the license fees from the people cranking out the discs (HD-DVD or Blu-Ray), the license fees from the music, the movies, the motion
You get the drift.
You can either play to win - or you can lose and look good doing so.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Stalemate my ass! There can be only one! On the other hand, none of those films have been released in HD-DVD or Blu-Ray yet.
I'll probably be getting a PS3 and so will have a Blu-Ray player...
Having had a taste of HD video (on Dish, which I eventually cancled due to repitition of content) I actually am looking forward to some movies in true HD. Even 720P looks so much nicer than even normal digital cable, you don't need to get a 1080p set for dramatic effect.
I'm putting off buying the new Star Wars box set until a re-release in a higher definition format.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Presuming that since HD-DVD and BLU-RAY are roughly equivalent products that players for each have roughly equivalent components does that mean Sony has a $300 profit - a 43% margin (minus whatever the middlemen skim off) on their $1000 BLU-RAY player?
While Sony, by cramming a $500 to $600 PS3 down our throats, has decided to lose the war.
Except that $500 box can let me play Assassin's Creed, while the Toshiba box lets me see some 30 different HD titles most of which I have already seen.
Not to mention that I get games with a wider range of textures and environements and content due to the increased storage offered. There is benefit to gamers beyond just beign able to watch movies in HD.
Your thoughts that Sony has decided to loose the way by offering a box at the same price as the Toshiba player with a lot more functionality and that probably does not take 30 seconds to turn on strikes me as odd.
Why again am I going to buy a standalone HD player in a market with two formats for the same price as a gaming system I know at least games will be produced on years to come?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
We all know the first one that can be copied, and that copy played on a player, will be the one that wins out. Pirating will get the players into peoples homes, then people will buy the HD-DVDs or Blu-Ray Discs. It's easy, put out a couple flicks without copy protection, make it so that blu-ray burner can burn them and they'll play, allow HD over component video, and lock everything down in a year when your format has been the winner for some time.
For a good time call www.sawkie.com
Rather than go for market share now (which they can get later this year with the PS3) they have opted to get players into the hands of people for whom $500 or $1000 is not much of a difference, and make some profit in the meantime.
I honestly cannot see Toshiba grabbing a lot more marketshare with a $500 player than Sony with a $1k player; Given how few titles are out at the moment both are impractical for the average (or even not so average) consumer.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Downrezzed analog connections + dynamic revokable viewing rights = dead and unusable technology.
5 years from today people will say "They actually tried to make a high definition DVD format? What happened?"
And just to prove my point, anyone of you remember DAT?
I didn't think so.
-- Mean People Suck
There was a story some months ago about studios considering dropping region coding for both formats, but I've never seen a followup to see if that's the case.
One nice thing for those in the US is that even with region coding on, for Blu-Ray Japan and the US are considered to be the same region. Great for games and just as good for anime.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You can see how they can twist their accountant's arms with those figures, especially when you consider that they would shift much less units in that first -$200 year, than in each of the subsequent 10 years of +$50 due to slow early adoption rates.
Netflix and Blockbuster deal in discs, not players. Most of the movie studios will be bringing their films out in one format or the other, not both. HD-DVD has Universal; Blu-Ray has 20th Century Fox, MGM, and Sony Pictures. That means for many films, they'll have to stock one format or the other but not both, or not stock the hi-def at all. Which means overall, they have to support both formats, and it's up to their customers to have the right player if they want to see a movie from a studio aligned with one side or the other.
Three are a few studios, notably Paramount and Warner, that are going to try to do both formats. There, Blockbuster and Netflix may have some say. Netflix has stated that they'll support both formats, but until the actual discs appear I don't know what that means. They're gonna hate buying three copies of movies (HD, Blu, regular DVD), but it sounds like that's what they're gonna do.
The public knows about HD. HD is very popular amongst the public. High definition video is the main selling point of next-gen discs such as HD-DVD and Blueray. Therefore, HD-DVD is going to win.
All that proves is that you are NOT a Videophile and are certainly NOT a Audio/Videophile early adopter. The fact is Stores are having a hard time Keeping the Toshiba HD-DVD's on the shelf. People are buying them, and the price support is is helping that I am sure, the price is not too bad the PQ is awesome and they do a heck of a job upconverting. And us Videophiles DO care about SD vs HD. I can't certainly tell and enjoy the difference in PQ betwee SD and HD on my fine display.
* People buy a PS3 to play games first and play movies second.
Agreed. Let's say only 5% of pS3 buyers actually buy Blu-Ray media out of the gate, with 3 million units sold. (a figure I think is terribly underestimated).
That's still 150k people buying Blu-Ray media!
Now the other side of the coin you are not thinking of is POTENTIAL market. Marking is all about "what is the size of the potential market I can reach". It's not considering how many PS3 owners are actually buying Blu-Ray discs so much as how many Blu-Ray owners there are total that might be convinced to buy Blu-Ray media. Why would you market to 100k people (or much less depending on how Toshiba sales go) when you have a market of millions you can reach?
* Content matters more than format (both in the quality of titles available and the quality of video/audio on said titles)
That is also very true and why the large majority of studio support for Blu-Ray is part of the equation I listed for success.
* You don't need 25gb to store a hi-def movie using next-gen codecs
You are not thinking of the many extras that might be included, like many two disc sets collapsing for one - very appealing for those that rent movies as there is no longer a second disc they'll never see.
* Toshiba has sold every HD-DVD player that they've brought out over here
Easy in an early market when you have low production rates. There are always early adoptors that will buy in at any price with any number of problems, whcih is why the $1k Sony Blu-Ray player should move pretty well too.
* Commitments from studios matter less than the content actually made available
Yes that's true, currently a similar number of titles are avialiable or out very soon for both formats but we'll see what happens later in the year. With more studios behind Blu-Ray we should also see more discs.
* There is no "20gb" HD-DVD disc
* 2-layer HD-DVD burners are available (30gb), while only single layer bluray burners are available (25gb)
Thanks for the correction, not sure where I got the 20GB figure from. Burners are also still too expensive at the moment to really matter but will matter more once costs drop. With Blu-Ray drives being in Every PS3 I believe we'll see unit cost on Blu-Ray players and burners drop faster than with HD-DVD units.
* Microsoft gets money from both bluray and HD-DVD (their codec is in both standards);
Yes but they get much more money from HD-DVD because again, the menuing system is licenced from them. That means money for every disc sold vs. every player sold - Microsoft only gets per disc income off discs that actually use the MS codec.
they're backing HD-DVD because it has more consumer friendly features than blu-ray (including a mandatory managed copy requirement)
That same requirement is in the Blu-Ray spec. There is absolutley no difference in consumer features, or in codecs supported (as noted even Microsoft's codec is in both players) - heck, they both use AACS for content protection! Note the Toshiba player does not yet support managed copy as studios don't knwo how much freedom they want to allow there. I personally expect managed copy to never come to be on either format thanks to studio paranoia.
, is less expensive
What is less expensive? HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs are selling for the same price on Amazon. As we all know movie prices are totally unrelated to media costs anyway. As noted blank HD-DVD discs cost more than blank Blu-Ray discs.
The players? The Toshiba is $500, just as the base PS3 will be $500. Anything over $300 or so is kind of the same in terms of marketshare potential.
, and has a better upgrade scenario (HD-DVD on one side, DVD on the other side).
We'll see combo players in a few years that do both. I don't see any better upgrade potential with HD-DVD but there is potentially more storage to be had out of Blu-Ray eventually.
To me, these
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
My decision was already made the other day, courtesy of Slashdot's story on the first 3 Blu-Ray offerings, of which "50 First Dates" was given as the reason to go HD and see Adam Sandler's every pore. Clearly, these people are not SERIOUS about selling to any but the most fanatic Early Adopters.
I can wait. Specifically, I can wait until they issue "Apocalypse Now" and other cinematographer's triumphs in 1080p and you can get a large 1080p TV and a player for it (that either plays the winning format, or both formats if the War is protracted) for a total under $1500.
With DVDs, I note that one can currently get computers (MythTV, etc) that will ignore all the playing restrictions. Here's my "horror" story on that.
I have a nice Pioneer DVR/DVD player (520H) that never met a DRM instruction it didn't obey slavishly. Not only will it not so much as record from a protected video tape, or tape made from DVD (that THAT, analogue hole) but it won't FFWD during the FBI warning or any of the corporate logos, or *ADS* if they choose to put that rule on their disc. The screen shows "That Operation is Forbidden by This Disc" when you hit the remote button repeatedly while waiting some minutes for your movie to actually start.
The other day, I popped in a disk while some news was on, and it started loading. Just at that moment, major breaking news hit the TV channel...and the DVD screen started showing the FBI warning. Frantically, I hit the STOP, then the EJECT buttons on the remote. But no, even those just got "That Operation is Forbidden By This Disc". Nothing could make it stop showing the FBI Warning and go back to the TV feed.
On discs with trailers and ads you can't skip, I've learned to pop in the disc and walk away from the TV for several minutes, because I get so mad if I stay. It's so great to put DVDs in my computer upstairs, where Kaffiene cheerfully skips all that crap and goes right to the movie I paid for, when I hit "go to Menu".
Maybe the computer world will defeat the DRM on an HD disk enough so that I can be the one to say what the computer is forbidden and allowed to do; that would make me opt in to this new technology, too.
But for a couple of years, I'm just going to wait and see. See DVDs. With a Linux media-computer that puts me in charge of my own damn living room.
the posters of that article should goto jail for fraud.
dylan mcgrath is a one eyed sock puppet, and the whole site looks like astro turf now.
oh sure toshiba is LOSING money so that you can get a new dvd faster.
ask why would the do this? to get teh standard adopted faster? why they dont own any media companies. would sone do this? no. they would rather let the format die than to give someoen a good deal.
this gets really fasle when these costs are based on "estimates" why would anyone want to read about some asshole guessing what things cost? newflash: companies do not pay etail for parts, they get things for cheaper than you or i could make them. unless toshibla proveides hard numbers on what they paid, we will enver know, and even then they are probably lying.
slashdot should really stop posting this kind of shit about how good a new hd player is because it ONLY costs 499 instead of the usual 1000. this is a joke right? dvd players have been ~20 bucks for a long time, who the fuck is gonna buy the extra special super duper model at 25x the price. is it 25x resolution.
the cat is out of the bag, everyone knows that if a dvd player can be sold profitably for 20 bucks, so can hd dvd and blu ray. and as for the kindnees of a company to help with these costs this is a new form of the most perversive advertising that can be. these are paper losses only--at best. if toshiba really wants to be kind and have their format win, they better start giving these things away like chocolate santas at chritmass, the way cell phone companies do.
more than ever people are asking whats in it for me? a vauge paper trail that basically comes out like this "well we've never done this before, but the boss has just agreed to knock 200 dollars of the price of that dvd player" just doesnt cut it. if anything it is non existent sales, and the growing layer of dust in the warehouse that has prompted toshiba to take action. note to marketing idiots; there are fewer suckers with money these days, you have already bled most of them dry. you better lower the price to ~20 bucks and fast, before your format starts to look like a loser format, cuz when that happens you wont be able to even give them away.
One of these formats will fade away as will regular DVD. My idea is that Hollywood wants stronger and better DRM (for them not us lowly users) which both Blu-Ray and HD DVD have so for that reason alone one of these formats will succeed because they will eventually stop supporting regular DVDs which have been for the most part totally cracked.
Unless the DRM situation with these things changes drastically (for the better, that is), I wish them both death by a thousand stalemates.
Even if that comes to pass, don't bet on the big players seeing DRM as a major factor in the formats' demise. However, if they watch a boatload of R&D capital go down the drain while outlets of unencumbered content (e.g. mp3tunes.com and emusic.com) gain market share, who knows - perhaps a light could go on somewhere, or perhaps a foundation or open consortium could spawn an *open* storage format & device / communication spec that DRM-bent interests don't control.
The funding obstacle to this is monumental to be sure, but the most likely way to put a stake in DRM would probably be for an open standard for HDTV devices (storage, communication, playback) to gain traction in consumer devices. Sure, they wouldn't work with HDCP / 5C content, but that's the point. A third of the commercial devices won't interoperate either, given the bugginess of so many implementations. Utopia would be to see something like an EFF branded HD PVR, with open licensed blueprints allowing free manufacture thereupon on the condition that no DRM of any kind be enabled.
Pi Ran Out
What ever happened to the anti dumping laws? It used to be against the law to sell below costs. Before some one points out something obvious but inherently wrong, no dumping isn't good for consumers it's bad for them because it's designed to kill the competion and the one with deep pockets always wins. The early adopters may save a few bucks but the end goal is to grab market share so they can control the market. Sadly for some reason the better of the two products generally looses these wars. Everything from NTSC to Beta have been cases of the best coming in second. I'm not 100% sure at this point which is superior but I hate to see corporate dumping deciding instead of the superior product winning out.
The reason for the urgency of getting these formats out the door is the reality that they are exactly like DVDs, an intermediate technology with a relatively short life expectancy. As such, it is far better to evaluate the real impact on the market in comparison to alternatives that are available or on the horizon. The question is one of cost. Let us assume the player to be a fixed cost you are willing to bear. This is, after all for an early adopter needing to lead the market. On-going cost of the media itself from what have been able to analyze of approximate file size vs. stated sale price is about $1.25 to $1.40 per gigabyte. (~25GB at a cost of $30+) This price is justified for a product that offers 50% greater resolution (480p vs 720p, note the player will not handle 1080p!)and no HD sound. Compare this to the cost of a hard drive at ~$.35 per gigabyte. I have faith in the market to bring me a better product to my HTPC via bit torrent or some other emerging net technology. This would have been a pitifull attempt by media companies to keep us in a hard copy, easily controllable, DRM locked environment had not Sony taken that one extra step of greedy they have shown in the past and needed to control the format exclusively. What has resulted, as others have said, is a stalemate. The difference is, it simply won't matter since the whole issue will be bypassed by better, more customer friendly technology.
HD-DVD/Blu-ray is just not worth it in my opinion. I have a 50" Sony HDTV and an upconverting DVD player and I am very pleased with the picture. I was at an electronics store watching The Last Samurai on a good sized TV for nearly twenty minutes before a salesman asked me what I thought of the new HD-DVD format. I was completely underwhelmed and didn't even realize I was watching an HD version of the film until the salesman told me. With players that cost C$700 and movies that are over C$35 each it just doesn't make economic sense to me.
I think both HD-DVD and Blu-ray are a bust.
Perhaps because you want a disc player with a user interface that isn't a pile of turd? Every built-into-a-console dvd player I've ever used has been a piece of junk and has had serious issues with video quality ...
Yes that would be nice, but I can live with a somewhat poorer interface for a savings of hundreds of dollars. I would like a blu-ray or HD-DVD player but I simply cannot justify a standalone unit, while I can justify a Blu-Ray and game console together (especially one that can replace an aging PS2 and also play new games).
I actually used the PS2 as my only DVD player for about a year before standalone players dropped to the point I was willing to buy one. It was not actually that bad to use after buying the remote.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I've heard, second hand, that some Toshiba HD DVD players actually have NEC drives in them - does this make sense?
I'll proabbly also get a Wii as that expereince looks pretty unqiue as well.
But once you've seen real HD video on a good screen... well it's worth some bother. And there's nothing wrong with wanting a system with as unique games as the Wii will have along with a system built for sheer graphical power like the PS3.
$500 is not a lark if you plan to use the system for many years. It's a carefully considered gaming upgrade.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
No the HD boxed set after where they bundle the Tickle-Me-Greedo version with the orignal to force you to buy both at an inflated cost.
Or perhaps that will be after the 3-D versions are released in HD... (not kidding).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I highly doubt this will be an issue. A dual layer HD-DVD maxes out at 30GB which, yes, is 20 GB less than a dual layer Blu-Ray disc but I highly doubt any games will come close to using that much space with the majority of it taken up by textures and environment details. The only thing that I can think of that would be able to fill that space up rather quickly is HD video clips but if that is the case then remind me not to buy that game since I can't stand video cut scenes and prefer cut scenes that use the game engine. That would just be a worthless waste of space to fill it up with HD video.
I generally don't like games with a lot of cut-scenes either (or at least prefer in-game cut scenes to preserve continuity of story) but there is one use of video I'm pretty excited about, which is extras.
Here I am thinking of game making-of videos just like you have special features with movies today. I already have a few DVD's like that that came with extended/limited editions of some games and generally I really find them interesting. I would also be really interested to see games that included "commentary audio" that would be environmentally triggered to have the game director talk about a given moment in the game.
However all of that is sort of a moot point to argue about in relation to gaming because Microsoft has said no games will be delivered on HD-DVD. Since there are no other game systems even considering an HD-DVD player the argument is more over DVD space for games verses Blu-Ray space for games.
I do actually think Microsoft will relent however and be forced by studios to support HD-DVD games eventually, and they've backpedaled a bit by saying the could release system updates as required at any time. But at that point (say in about a year) Microsoft may sense a sea change in support and release a 360 with Blu-Ray support (which they have explictly never precluded!).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
they seem to be listing the full retail cost for the memory module. Why would toshiba be paying retail price on anything in the unit? wouldn't they be buying wholesale? if all their numbers are off, that's up to a 30% inaccurate estimate for the price of the parts. which takes away most of the 'so called loss lead per unit'
anyways, they could be taking a loss per unit, but i am really skeptical about the numbers being given in the parent article.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
To respond to you..
I would add don't confuse logic with passion and hobby, it may not be the logical thing to you...
but for me and some of my friends with this relatively inexpensive player and a Netflix account I am enjoying my passion and the fruits of HD NOW not 2 years from now, and now is important to me, and the DRM (which I agree is evil/messed up) is not really an issue untill I plan to record/burn etc, and/or run HTPC (no plans right now), so DRM issues are really just a theoretical issue to me at the present. Plus I and other videophiles often just plain ole buy our favorites and or record HD on our DVRs (not as good agreed). So although I am interested in the outcome of HD vs BD and the DRM saga, I am not going to not enjoy what I can now, I will replace the $400 player with a multiplayer when needed.
It's silly to argue about video quality of the two systems when both support the same codecs (Blu-Ray also supports MP4, it just doesn't happen to be the standard movies on that format are mostly going to arrive in). Also people generally really do not care as much about the upper bounds of quality, as witnessed by the acceptance of MP3 and similar formats. Do you think most people are really going to tell the difference between an MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 feed if both are displayed at 1080p? No they are not.
As for the disc yields yes HD-DVD is a little further along in the release cycle but that means nothing compared to the number of players that are coming. By the time the PS3 is out dual-layer yields will improve and so will content of discs. It simply means I wouldn't by Blu-Ray discs quite yet but then that's true of both systems since it's early in the release cycle for both.
Also you make the tragic mistake of juding a whole formats video quality based on specific transfers - sure the Fifth Element does not look quite as good as it could (although we have no HD-DVD version to say if that would in fact look any better). But remember that 50 first dates in fact got a thumbs up for video quality so it shows good video is quite possible and not a format limitation. In fact the slightly lower quality transfers you mentioned are hinted at by your own point about dual layer discs not yet being delivered. So just as we ave fifty different DVD versions of the Fifth Element so to shall we see a few passes at the Blu-Ray version. Similarily it's pretty silly to point to reviews of good HD-DVD transfers without a comparison Blu-Ray version of the same movie.
I'm also not quitre sure where you get the idea Blu-Ray cannot do embedded video as it is quite posisble using the BD-J system (I am curious why you did not provide a link about that being delayed).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I just did a little further reading on blu-ray/hd-dvd movies out today and came across this:
First Movie Titles and Disc Capacity.
In a recent column, I observed how much disc space was utilized by eight HD DVD titles. Even though all eight titles relied on the latest video codecs--VC-1 and MPEG-4 AVC, both of which are more efficient encoders than MPEG-2--most of the titles showed signs of pushing HD DVD's capacity limits. The Last Samurai topped out at 27.3GB, Mel Brooks's Blazing Saddles at 25.4GB, The Phantom of the Opera at 24.8GB, Jarhead at 24.7GB, The Bourne Identity at 22.7GB, Serenity at 19.6GB, The Fugitive at 18.2GB, and Doom at 16.5GB. It seems that the first wave of Blu-ray titles are also pushing the space constraints of the format. For now, these titles are limited to 25GB single-layer discs; 50GB dual-layer discs are forthcoming, though. Using Sony's new Vaio AR Premium, a $3500 notebook that includes a Blu-ray Disc burner, I checked out how much disc space Sony's first seven Blu-ray titles (encoded in MPEG-2, and many of them light on extra features) required. The results of this survey were quite telling: The Fifth Element needed 22.8GB; The Terminator, 23GB; House of Flying Daggers, 23.1GB; xXx, 22.3GB; Hitch, 22.9GB; Underworld Evolution, 22.5GB; 50 First Dates, 18.8GB.
My one takeaway from this random survey of both Blu-ray and HD DVD titles: The physical disc format's capacity is going to be more integral to the future presentation of content than perhaps Hollywood, or even industry observers, originally anticipated.
So the HD-DVD movies are almost out of space as it is and there seems to be no space savings at all in using MP4 over MP2. And it seems that space is at more of a premium than we had thought, with Blu-Ray having a distinct edge once dual layer discs arrive.
Also, I could not find any reference to the Samsung player not supporting dual-layer Blu-Ray discs, just that it shouldn't read DVD+ media (though apparently it actually does) and that most launch discs with single layer. Care to point out the review you read that from?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Gawd I just got a DVD player that can play Xvid and anything else I can throw at it. I torrent, I burn, I watch. What in the hell do I need and thing else for?
Phear The Phat Penguin
I, like many consumers, don't _care_ what a system can possibly do. I care about what it does do. So far, Sony is requiring all titles on blu-ray to be released in MPEG2. Even Warner, who we know has VC1 encodes of their movies, because they're released on HDDVD, will be forced to do a MPEG2 encode for the blu-ray version. Why this is I don't know, since the Broadcom chip on the Samsung is quite capable of decoding VC1 and H.264 in real time. If I were a guessing man, I'd be betting it's because they're having trouble getting their H.264 codec performant on the PS3.
And yes, while it's not strictly kosher comparing different movies picture quality, those reviews were all done by the same person, and he's clearly happier with the PQ on the HDDVD movies. Until Warner starts releasing their movies on Blu-Ray (Which for some reason they haven't done yet, how strange, and even stranger, they have about 20% of the titles planned for blu-ray as they do for HDDVD) we won't be able to do side-by-side comparisons.
BD-J has not been delayed as such. Studios have just been told not to use it. I know this because I've worked with places doing authoring for both titles. You'll note (or, you won't because nobody seems to have noticed yet) that all the initial Blu-ray titles are BD-MV, which has no animation ability, and only simple menus over video possible.
Also, I'd love to see an embedded java chip than can process video fast enough to provide a secondary video stream, since the Blu-ray spec has no mandatory second video codec, picture in picture is a pipe dream for them (No one will author to an optional spec component)
Put it this way, the studios are not happy with the limitations and quality issues they are having to work with to get blu-ray discs out there. In the end, it's not the consumers that get to choose. Whichever format makes the most studios the happiest will win.
Also it doesn't matter how much the dual layer yields increase if shipped players can't play them. Unless the Samsung somehow can upgrade itself to play double layer discs, it has become the lowest common denominator, and no discs will be released in dual layer until it can.
yep, they sold both copies of the one movie available.
The phrase "more better" is acceptable English. suck it grammar Nazis
How is that "uncracked DRM" working out for DVD-Audio?
DVD-Audio, Minidisc, and HD-DRM are similar in two ways:
- They are digital formats
- You can't access the digits
- the access restriction restricts adoption (and leads to format death hopefully)
Toshiba has a lot of the IP behind HD DVD. They stand to get a few bucks from 10's of millions of (legally licensed) HD DVD player manufactured in the next decade -- but only if HD DVD wins.
Loosing a few bucks on initial HD DVD shipments is chump change in comparison.
*golf clap*
Bravo for being one of the schleps who's gotta have the latest toys. I, as a sensible consumer, appreciate the monetary sacrifice you've made so there's one less revision 1 piece of crap on the shelf at Best Buy.
AVphiles don't go out and blow a wad of cash on unproven junk. They purchase well tested and well thought out hardware so they can enjoy their music/videos without having to worry about upgrading in the next three to six months. If you read anything about that Toshiba Blu-ray player, you'd know it's crap (doesn't even do 1080p).
Thanks for playing.
Why is it that all chineese designed stuff has CRAP remote controls.
* crap looking designs, made by engineers that probably only have used remotes themselves in the last 5 years, not from 1985 when they were kids. Having
that indirect experience of good/crap remotes help in design.
* week IR power, why is it their remotes are so damn week, needing 30deg field or 5ft distance? Do they use crap LEDs or bad software reading it?
Are their test clients living in closets? Common, get with it, even in 1990 we had sony remotes working at every angle from 30 feet.
* crap battery covers, that break the clips or come loose. Get a clue designers
Spend the $40k and get someone in germany to design it. Not your 12 year old 'wizz kid' for $12 and 9 kilos of rice and a PS2
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
You obvioubly didn't read my post... I can tell/appreciate the difference in PQ maybe you can't... or its not important
Why don't you visit avsforum and do a little reading before you say what avfiles do and don't do...
By the way we are talking about the Toshiba HD-DVD player not a BD Player...
Oh 1080p is really only useful for large displays viewed within a certain distance, and for most consumers its hype / overkill but of course you know already know that...
And yes I can spend $400 dollars of disposable income...yes dis-pos-a-ble... as in I can spend it if I want to.... and feel good about it...for me the 400 dollars is no different than what other "Sensible" people go out and spend on there iPods, Treo, Game Consoles etc
And Yes your are welcome, that I spent my money and made a vote! instead of ineffectivly just whining!
As to everyone having the HD vs BD thing figured out already, yeah right ...there is good and bad for both.
All that proves is that you are NOT a Videophile and are certainly NOT a Audio/Videophile early adopter.
Ahem, SACD, DVD-A. I bet Audiophile early adopters hurried up to early adopt those, too. Does it matter for the market? Where are those SACDs and DVD-As in the stores? Sorry, but you (and I am an audiophile, too) are not a market big enough to decide, will it survive or it will be another still-born.
Oh 1080p is really only useful for large displays viewed within a certain distance, and for most consumers its hype / overkill
I thought you were speaking on behalf of videophiles, not most consumers.
And you do realise that NOT spending money is also a vote, right?
Both hd-dvd and blu-ray use a 405 nm laser which is in the violet/blueish part of the spectrum. I have no idea where you got the rest of your information from.
Wiki that mentions hd-dvd's laser.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-DVD
THe difference between the hd-dvd and blu-ray is not the laser itself but the structure of the disc. Blu-ray allows for more space per layer.
Hmmm... Pie...
i've a well calibrated 60" lcd rptv, and i can say that hd-dvd's look stunning, even better than DVHS. DVDs do not cut it anymore. i've also seen an hd-dvd (last samurai in fact) projected at a local theater (about 500"), and it looked as good as film (1080i detractors should also get educated. with 24fps content you will see the exact same image with a 1080i player or a 1080p player. it's called inverse telecine, and TVs have been doing it for ages)
(for reference, i have a denon 3910 upconverting player, one of the best, and i cannot bear to watch much on it anymore)
of course it looked like cr@p, local stores set it up horribly wrong on tv's incapable of truely resolving all 1920x1080 resolution. believe me, most hdtvs out there are not really fully capable of resolving the full resolution. dvd has 6 times less pixels, that you wouldn't be able to see the difference either means you are blind or the tv/setup is totally wrong. msot of the time these setups won't even bother to set it up on their best tv i bet, just attach it to whatever setup.
CD's and DVD's take up space, get scratched, and you have to keep them organized.. if you have a large collection it's quite a pain in the ass. I would much rather just have enough bandwidth to have HD movies streamed to me and the ability to save them onto a hard drive.
If I were a guessing man, I'd be betting it's because they're having trouble getting their H.264 codec performant on the PS3.
I'd say that's rather unlikely - I'm quite convinced that the Cell has more than enough grunt to do H.264 decoding.
It would be interesting to know what the real reason is, though.
They are sold on-line, through outlets like Amazon.com and Music Direct. You may not have noticed, but SACD is part of the Official PS3 Specs
Buy Sony's next-gen console, get HD audio and HD video play as a bonus. Works for me.
If that's true (I don't believe it is) then you are quite simply blind... A problem the rest of the popluation doesn't have, so stop the anti-HD trolling already. And mods should stop giving these idiots points.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Bah, stupid format wars, everyone should just say no and let the damned dual format stuff sit on the shelf and collect dust.
I refuse to buy something that may or may not be obsolete in a year or two (anyone remember DivX, the pay for play DVD competitor?), glad I didn't buy one of those. The difference is this time there isn't a clear guage which one will win.
The manufacturers need to grow up and embrase compatability; this goes for all technology companies, why do I need a fifty dollar cable from Motorolla or Kyocera for a cell phone, a mini-usb interface on the phone would have worked just fine, and fits nicly in small packages like phones and cameras.
Maybe they wouln't need half of those ICs driving up the price if it didn't have fscking DRM!
I love the ./'rs that say I wont touch it until this that or the other [...] All that proves is that you are NOT a Videophile and are certainly NOT a Audio/Videophile early adopter.
No. Audio/videophiles do not just value a higher-bandwidth signal. Some value things like the freedom to make backups, or the freedom to hook things up they way we want to. Macrovision on VCRs was bad enough.
However, it makes a big difference if the "per unit" cost is based on 1-100 , 1000-9999 , 10K-99K, or "ask for vendor quote" volume categories. The cost of producing that report would have gone up a hell of a lot if the analyst checked with the vendors on even the big-ticket ICs, let alone every part of the unit.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Guess I hit a nerve there. Oh, well...
No, won't be buying a PS3. Don't own a PS2 or PS1 either, I was playing PC games for the most part until I ditched Windows entirely.
I read your post, and understand what you said. I've seen some real audiophile setups, and can appreciate the amount of disposable income one must dedicate to have a very, very nice audio system. The modifications to some of the homes I've been in are impressive enough without the equipment thrown in the mix.
BTW, I was talking about the Blu-Ray player, not the HD-DVD player.
1080p is only useful for large displays? And here you thought you were a videophile. I didn't know liking interlaced video was "in". Or do you prefer just watching 720p?
I don't know where you got the idea that I was whining, I've been laughing pretty much the whole time I've been reading your posts.