"but Marxism is not the same as Stalinism. Marx never advocated the sort of brutal oppression carried out by Stalin."
Stalinism (or Leninism.... it is exactly the same), while it is not all of Marxism, is merely the dominant form. However, it is relevant that Castro early-on did indeed buy into the specific Soviet version of Marxism (kingly dictator, brutal oppression, no press or religious freedom, no worker rights, etc), as opposed toe other varieties.
"The same is true for a country that catalysed the rise of an Aryanist Third Reich and engendered the Al-Qaeda Mujahiddeen just because they didn't like "them commies who'll conquer us with their errr... cigars"."
Except the US did not catalyze the rise of the Nazis (while, thanks to Pat Buchanan-types, the US sure sat back and watched them grow!) While the US did engender the Mujahadeen rebels in Afghanistan, it did not engender Al-Quada. Not every Middle-East muslim/arab/etc terror group is the exact same group, nor have they all existed at the exact same time and place.
By "propaganda" you must be referring to information you disagree with. This is an overused and now-meaningless word in arguments. My sources tend to be people who have travelled there. I tend to ignore the exiles.
How much can be found out there? It is illegal to criticize Castro, so of course there will be a rosy picture. Also, there only so little you can find out inside a closed police state where speaking your mind is strongly discouraged.
For a comparative example, how are you going to find out how Disneyland REALLY works? By paying for a E Ticket and following the lines.....or by reading the "Unofficial Guide to Disneyland" which tells you about the accident cover-ups, employee experiences, and what's behind the fake walls? The situation with Cuba and similar countries is much the same.
"If it is wanted badly enough it will eventually happen. Lift the fucking embargo"
I think that might be a good idea if it was part of a deal where the Cubans get something out of it, such as a significantly greater ability to manage their own economic affairs. What good is lifting it when the economy and law are structured to mandate poverty for everyone except for the guy who owns everything?
"Stop trying to force democracy on people"
Perhaps the real force here is used by those who deny this and other basic rights.
The "selling Cuba to the USSR" part was entirely Castro's doing. He even announced himself as a Leninist in the 1950s.
"Castro/Che's Marxist doctrine fit well enough"
At least you admit he was already a Stalinist, with an ideology based on brutal oppression.
"...after the revolution....The only chance they had was to join with a more powerful country"
Yet, Castro did this long before he took over.
"The outlaw George Washington had a merry old time managing the slaughter"
Might be an interesting example if Washington was doing as Castro did: destroying any hope of sovereignty of his country by actually working to add it to a distant enemy European empire.
"of course I really do the US where they demonize anything they don't agree with"
That is kind of irrelevant here. I don't care what the "US" thinks. I just detest dictators. If you were defending Batista or other "US friends", I would be as critical.
Let's ask the Cubans here. I'm sure this wonderful free country has many Cubans participating freely on the Internet. Hello?.....Hello?....
"in the article include sleep deprivation, depression, and nervous shaking of the hands."
I think that sounds like poor ol Joe Lieberman during the last election, sometime after it hit him that he would not win and before he pulled out of the race, but he was still stumping anyway.
"be honest, the "red china" government has made most chinese happy right now."
I don't think they have made the Tibetans very happy. They are not making the Taiwanese very happy, either, by threatening to destroy them merely for stating the obvious: that Taiwan is an independent nation.
"People are generally play by the big corporate companies and the government as they have the "power" to control what we see"
What country are you in? There is no such control in the US.
See how the "crime" of being HIV infected has had the result of a lifetime prison sentence. Note the lack of the 'usual suspects' in the source (no right-wing media, no pro-democracy activists in Florida...nothing until you get to a Republican proposing legislation at the end).
This type of oppression goes even beyond the dreams of Pat Robertson.
I wanted to add that I do not want a "return to Batista". There are plenty of alternatives to "Stalinist hellhole" than "return to Batista". Consider that Cuba was a relatively decent and civil place before Batista. Batista ushered in brutality, corruption, restrictions of freedom, and other oppression. Castro actually made things worse. Just one example is the non-government press. Batista harassed it. Castro just went and wiped it out entirely.
As for the hotel tax, the fees are collected directly from the hotel companies by the Castro regime, and do not show up on the worker payroll.
"Ya know what? We have a British governor. Ya know what power he has? Basically none!"
This is in response to my mention of Castro the governor. What is the point? Are you arguing now that Castro has "basically no" power? Again, the Cubans deserve better than the longest-lasting dictator in the hemisphere. They deserve better than the historically-quaint Stalinist model of governance.
"Lets not forget, Castro and Che Guevara started the revolution to get rid of the horribly corrupt US-backed Batista regime!"
Actually, they started the revolution with the intent of annexing Cuba to the Soviets, which they did. Che Guevara? He had a merry old time managing the slaughter of thousands of political prisoners when Castro seized power. Remember, Che is the one who said that the Soviets were not brutal enough. A mass-murdering maniac who thinks Stalin was a softie is a great guy to have to shape your country, right?
What is so bad about Cubans moving forward to democracy and being able to decide their own affairs? The Stalinist model it is run under now is brutal and dehumanizing. The Cuban people do not deserve such punishment.
"Atheism isn't a religion any more than baldness is a hair color."
It depends. The ones who lack religion tend to be on the agnostic side: they assert no faith. However, some Atheists do assert a strong faith about the nature of deity. The ones of this type have "hair" in your example. Once someone starts asserting "facts" about these things....
There are indeed different kinds of Atheism (it varies, like any religion). However, Chinese Atheism is less than perfectly "without a god", as it has definitely deified Mao (there's even a holy book!) and to some extent the ruling state itself.
"What is worse is that you sign up for military service with the promise of a free education becuase all the jobs in your town have gone overseas then you end up fighting and dying in a made up war"
Imagine that....someone signs up for the ARMY and ends up having to engage in combat! The utter injustice. Something needs to be done. The names "ARMY" and "NAVY" and "MARINES" are so deceptive. No reasonable person could join any of them and think that the organizations had anything to do with military operations!
"I'm not sure what you are talking about. Free health care..."
Which is denied if you act up politically. The health care system has also included prison sentences for the "Crime" of merely being infested with HIV.
"On my trips there, the #1 thing people their are upset about is the US embargo. They don't have any major problems with thier government"
Of course. That is Castro's line, and his government has proven willing to kill and imprison those who express other beliefs.
" That is currently thier biggest beef with the Cuban government, the ban on smoking!"
Yeah, they can complain about that. But let them speak up about the unaccountable monarch that has been foisted on them for several decades? A monarch who has a death penalty imposed for Internet access? A monarch who forces Cubans to live in abject poverty (even taking hotel workers 90%) while he continues to amass a multi-billion dollar personal fortune?
Cuba is not getting along well "on its own". They are still governed by a colonial governor put in place by the Soviets. There is no democracy or sovereignty there.
"You CAN'T control the urge to know. You CAN'T make people believe something is bad just because you say it is bad."
The USSR and the older socialist bloc did a pretty good job of this for decades. Even now, in the Middle East, the often rabid antisemitism is fueled by religious leaders constantly bashing Jews. You can find plenty of other examples elsewhere and even in the US.
"can tell you the vast majority are VERY happy with Castro and the current system"
Yes, certainly they are happy, it is the law there. Those who express unhappiness with the regime are killed and/or imprisoned. Makes for a very happy populace.
"Pissing me off really makes me want to buy something"
When I see something in a popup or spam, it encourages me not to buy it and makes me think of the company as a scam. My opinion of "University of Phoenix Online" could not be lower as they sometimes send me 50 spams a day.
It is like if Coca Cola decided to do an ad campaign in which they paid the advertisers to drink gallons of Coke and then walk down the streets with fly undone peeing the processed Coke on passersby.
"Great - another annoyance sentenced legal! Will stupidity never end?"
It is less the annoyance itself being legal than it is the content of the annoyance. Compare it to someone crapping on your doorstep. The court issue here was not whether it is legal to do so: it is more like whether it is legal to have undigested corn in the crap.
"Let's not forget Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the various islands outwith. England does NOT equal Britain"
Which raises the question: do UK colonies such as the Falkland Islands pay the licence fee ("telly tax") as well? I know that "commonwealth" countries that still consider themselves subject to the Crown in some way (such as Canada) do not pay it.
"However I can see that it isn't exactly fair to pay a compulsory licence fee for something which you may choose not to use"
Or, is it fair to be forced to pay the licence fee ("Telly Tax") when those who view the content online and/or outside of the UK do not have to pay it at all?
Slashdot Mirror
Stalinism (or Leninism.... it is exactly the same), while it is not all of Marxism, is merely the dominant form. However, it is relevant that Castro early-on did indeed buy into the specific Soviet version of Marxism (kingly dictator, brutal oppression, no press or religious freedom, no worker rights, etc), as opposed toe other varieties.
Except the US did not catalyze the rise of the Nazis (while, thanks to Pat Buchanan-types, the US sure sat back and watched them grow!) While the US did engender the Mujahadeen rebels in Afghanistan, it did not engender Al-Quada. Not every Middle-East muslim/arab/etc terror group is the exact same group, nor have they all existed at the exact same time and place.
I added my friends to the lists, and now I am addicted to free iPods! Woe is me!
By "propaganda" you must be referring to information you disagree with. This is an overused and now-meaningless word in arguments. My sources tend to be people who have travelled there. I tend to ignore the exiles.
How much can be found out there? It is illegal to criticize Castro, so of course there will be a rosy picture. Also, there only so little you can find out inside a closed police state where speaking your mind is strongly discouraged.
For a comparative example, how are you going to find out how Disneyland REALLY works? By paying for a E Ticket and following the lines.....or by reading the "Unofficial Guide to Disneyland" which tells you about the accident cover-ups, employee experiences, and what's behind the fake walls? The situation with Cuba and similar countries is much the same.
I think that might be a good idea if it was part of a deal where the Cubans get something out of it, such as a significantly greater ability to manage their own economic affairs. What good is lifting it when the economy and law are structured to mandate poverty for everyone except for the guy who owns everything?
"Stop trying to force democracy on people"
Perhaps the real force here is used by those who deny this and other basic rights.
The "selling Cuba to the USSR" part was entirely Castro's doing. He even announced himself as a Leninist in the 1950s.
"Castro/Che's Marxist doctrine fit well enough"
At least you admit he was already a Stalinist, with an ideology based on brutal oppression.
"...after the revolution....The only chance they had was to join with a more powerful country"
Yet, Castro did this long before he took over.
"The outlaw George Washington had a merry old time managing the slaughter"
Might be an interesting example if Washington was doing as Castro did: destroying any hope of sovereignty of his country by actually working to add it to a distant enemy European empire.
"of course I really do the US where they demonize anything they don't agree with"
That is kind of irrelevant here. I don't care what the "US" thinks. I just detest dictators. If you were defending Batista or other "US friends", I would be as critical.
Let's ask the Cubans here. I'm sure this wonderful free country has many Cubans participating freely on the Internet. Hello?.....Hello?....
I think that sounds like poor ol Joe Lieberman during the last election, sometime after it hit him that he would not win and before he pulled out of the race, but he was still stumping anyway.
I don't think they have made the Tibetans very happy. They are not making the Taiwanese very happy, either, by threatening to destroy them merely for stating the obvious: that Taiwan is an independent nation.
"People are generally play by the big corporate companies and the government as they have the "power" to control what we see"
What country are you in? There is no such control in the US.
The source is the LA Times:
http://www.aegis.com/news/lt/1988/LT881104.html
See how the "crime" of being HIV infected has had the result of a lifetime prison sentence. Note the lack of the 'usual suspects' in the source (no right-wing media, no pro-democracy activists in Florida...nothing until you get to a Republican proposing legislation at the end).
This type of oppression goes even beyond the dreams of Pat Robertson.
I wonder who the zealot is. The one who insists that totalitarian "president for life" dictators are a good thing?
As for the hotel tax, the fees are collected directly from the hotel companies by the Castro regime, and do not show up on the worker payroll.
"Ya know what? We have a British governor. Ya know what power he has? Basically none!"
This is in response to my mention of Castro the governor. What is the point? Are you arguing now that Castro has "basically no" power? Again, the Cubans deserve better than the longest-lasting dictator in the hemisphere. They deserve better than the historically-quaint Stalinist model of governance.
Actually, they started the revolution with the intent of annexing Cuba to the Soviets, which they did. Che Guevara? He had a merry old time managing the slaughter of thousands of political prisoners when Castro seized power. Remember, Che is the one who said that the Soviets were not brutal enough. A mass-murdering maniac who thinks Stalin was a softie is a great guy to have to shape your country, right?
What is so bad about Cubans moving forward to democracy and being able to decide their own affairs? The Stalinist model it is run under now is brutal and dehumanizing. The Cuban people do not deserve such punishment.
It depends. The ones who lack religion tend to be on the agnostic side: they assert no faith. However, some Atheists do assert a strong faith about the nature of deity. The ones of this type have "hair" in your example. Once someone starts asserting "facts" about these things....
There are indeed different kinds of Atheism (it varies, like any religion). However, Chinese Atheism is less than perfectly "without a god", as it has definitely deified Mao (there's even a holy book!) and to some extent the ruling state itself.
If you believe that the unions stop such juvenile harassment of workers, just visit a picket line and see how the union strikers treat the workers.
Imagine that....someone signs up for the ARMY and ends up having to engage in combat! The utter injustice. Something needs to be done. The names "ARMY" and "NAVY" and "MARINES" are so deceptive. No reasonable person could join any of them and think that the organizations had anything to do with military operations!
Which is denied if you act up politically. The health care system has also included prison sentences for the "Crime" of merely being infested with HIV.
"On my trips there, the #1 thing people their are upset about is the US embargo. They don't have any major problems with thier government"
Of course. That is Castro's line, and his government has proven willing to kill and imprison those who express other beliefs.
" That is currently thier biggest beef with the Cuban government, the ban on smoking!"
Yeah, they can complain about that. But let them speak up about the unaccountable monarch that has been foisted on them for several decades? A monarch who has a death penalty imposed for Internet access? A monarch who forces Cubans to live in abject poverty (even taking hotel workers 90%) while he continues to amass a multi-billion dollar personal fortune?
Cuba is not getting along well "on its own". They are still governed by a colonial governor put in place by the Soviets. There is no democracy or sovereignty there.
The USSR and the older socialist bloc did a pretty good job of this for decades. Even now, in the Middle East, the often rabid antisemitism is fueled by religious leaders constantly bashing Jews. You can find plenty of other examples elsewhere and even in the US.
Yes, certainly they are happy, it is the law there. Those who express unhappiness with the regime are killed and/or imprisoned. Makes for a very happy populace.
Are you saying that Americans are ordering these Chinese flags and fireworks and are not paying for them? Are they using credit cards?
When I see something in a popup or spam, it encourages me not to buy it and makes me think of the company as a scam. My opinion of "University of Phoenix Online" could not be lower as they sometimes send me 50 spams a day.
It is like if Coca Cola decided to do an ad campaign in which they paid the advertisers to drink gallons of Coke and then walk down the streets with fly undone peeing the processed Coke on passersby.
It is less the annoyance itself being legal than it is the content of the annoyance. Compare it to someone crapping on your doorstep. The court issue here was not whether it is legal to do so: it is more like whether it is legal to have undigested corn in the crap.
Which raises the question: do UK colonies such as the Falkland Islands pay the licence fee ("telly tax") as well? I know that "commonwealth" countries that still consider themselves subject to the Crown in some way (such as Canada) do not pay it.
Or, is it fair to be forced to pay the licence fee ("Telly Tax") when those who view the content online and/or outside of the UK do not have to pay it at all?
Dont worry. Their mispelling things like this all the time.