I think you hit the critical design faiure - the kite will need a ton of cable all engineered to solve the last link stress. If only a single link needed to overcome this weight, and the sequential links needed only to sustain their respective stress loads, the structure could be constructed. Wouldn't be safe or effecient, but it could be constructed.
The gyromill.
As much as i dislike the idea of being struck by an inflated kite - I dislike the idea of being struck by a 10 million volt dual propeller hat much worse. When that thing fails there's gonna be hell to pay.
"Hi - I'd like to take out an insurance policy - for this blender thing I want to put 10KM over manhatten"
each cable must support the weight to the next kite, but each cable must also take its turn as the weakest link and be the final connection for all work product to be delivered to the generating hub.
Its probably a slow moving apparatus, so the force moment for 100,000 KWatts (at 1 Meter per second) is in the neighborhood of 100,000 Kgrams. That's a strong fishing line.
even at 10 Meters per second, the force moment is 10,000 Kgrams.
One optimization problem is that this force is not consistently experienced throughout the loop - which means that every link must be over engineered by several orders of magnitude.
the idea of generally catching more air is good though
The kite has the potential to capture a minute percentage of power available for a given operational site. For safety reasons one needs a diameter roughly equal to the extended length which is roughly 1.5 times the operating altitude. The theoretical capacitity of a site is 59% of the available wind moment across the site in a plane perpendicular to the wind direction. A Kite would occupy only the tiniest fraction of this capacity and as such is highly ineffecient with respect to real estate.
A Vertical wing array on the other hand interfaces all of the wind available to a site, and while it has aspects in common with a kite, it may resolve some of the issues mentioned here - primarily in that it does not seek the fastest air at impractical altitude, but simply increases surface area in low wind conditions for higher power to cost ratios.
AIK
c'mon - i was funnin the numbers - like Geo Bush actually got more votes than anyone in history.
its a truism which is patently untrue.
George bush squeeked out the narrowest margin possible in a two way race - and suddendly he's the most wildly successful politician in the history of life.
Clinton actually outranked his opponents by a much wider margin than bush
But I have been scetching scaleable wind generators for a year or so now - so this isn't just "bitching on Slashdot"
I'm genuinely interested in what the/. collective mind thinks of Wind Power.
My designs are based on stretched tyvek surfaces and blend the physics of kites, sailboats, and bird wings.
In theory one can build a huge self-rising structure of undulating airfoils and collect power from the oscillations. on a large scale - an axel bound design is limiting.
So i'm angling to be a contestant here.
But in truth - i'm not the genius - Burt Ruttan is, and if he was motivated by a challenge - i think he - and the gaggle of people he competes with, would be able to make an important step forward in Wind.
Wind is the answer I believe - it's been used before, is still used by most cultures for boats, and is viable in ways that solar for example is not.
I think the math suggests that 2000 difference may be better spent on sustainable power generation because it indicates that the affordable-effeciency gains for the current refridgerator have been exploited. If the remaining choice is non-cost effective exploits or more cost effective generation - then the smart money goes with the higher cost/benefit.
Nuclear generates a lot of heat. Even in the best of worlds, heat pollution would contribute to global warming I would think. Nuclear is destabilizing. Every pinhead nation wants a "nuclear" power station - which is a euphamism for - we want to make a bomb and terrorize the world. You can't share nuclear technology with hateful people - i doubt seriously that a windmill is ever likely to be used for threatening your neighbors.
Space Travel is not as dangerous - many more people have died scuba diving. So I guess maybe space travel is a way for whimps to experience scuba diving.
The earth sucks power out of the wind anyway - trees, mountains etc... Our ability to change the friction cooeffecient of the earth surface is minial at best - a valid concern given the unintended effects of every other source of power - but bird deaths are a more valid deal-killer than the reverse effect.
Like it or not - backward nations - even hateful backward nations such as Sudan - are a limited threat to the rest of the world. Rich hateful nations on the other hand are a pain in the ass.
Sure they've been using the sword for a few millinium. I'm not concerned about the sword - it's the moden warfare - and that is new - and highly dependent on oil wealth.
Bush protected the Oil Fields - he didn't protect the Weapons stores.
I'm thinking the Christians - under Father Bush - are killing the Muslims over Oil.
but poverty is caused more by government corruption and lawlessness than by lack of infrastructure.
While I agree on this point generally. We could give good infrastructure, that could lead to more education - and i think that is (one way) to give good government.
As long as we burn sulfer products into the air we breathe we have enough power - Ah ha - we have a different definition of enough power.
The truth is we have more surface area that resources - resources which are all power related.
If Africa had power enough to run reverse osmosis they could produce fresh water at will, pump it to wherever, and we could build las vegas's in the Sahara.
sustainable power is a better way to expand habitable acreage than space colonialization.
Space Travel is exciting - but everyone who wants to experience space is already a scuba diver - and the experience is largely the same.
Cost effective Wind Power (Kilowatts/Construction costs) would mean the end of middle east conflict, global warming, rural poverty in developing countries, lung disease in Beiging.
How else could you solve so many problem with a 10 million dollar prize. If Burt Rutan was focused on a lightweight scalable wind turbine - My guess is we'd be there by now. Instead we've invented a private version of the vomit comet.
Perhaps something we need - like cost effective wind power designs that don't kill birds.
Seriously,
Rutan is a genius at aerodynamics, if that prize had been for a 10 dollar airfoild design to generate 100 killiwatts, we could have joined the kiyoto treaty rednecks notwithstanding.
I bought a Sony laptop from the Sony Store in San Francisco in 2000 - I think the price was fair given it was a specialty item (Sub compact) and the help was reasonably informed.
Its a great store - in the sense that the atmosphere, the decor etc. , raises the bar for a quality experience and demonstrates in meatspace the various categories in which Sony has a substantial if not dominating presence.
The kids room with games wa fun safe and clean, the adults lounge is sophisticated and offered a full variety - that laptop went to 8 countries by train, so I really needed the right size (By the way I slipped it past customs search, it was that thin. - which is important when you're on a train between Budapest and Kiev in a starving village where the only source of income is alien extortion)
Sony has a lot to offer - and like apple, they combine a sense of style with their product - the store is the logical way to fully express the lifestyle space they have defined.
The trick is to capture and convert the heat - not the exhaust and convert it into more power.
At the end of the day - power density is more important than effeciency for portable power - so don't expect a great deal of concern about the cogen issue.
AIK
Re:Sequencing is not how people work politically.
on
The Nader Factor
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
I tend to agree.
Lighting needs a macro plan on how it will get all the way from point a to b.
To be viable as a national party, it is necessary to demonstrate how a presidential candidate compares to the others, and how - what may seem like local issues - express themselves in a national debate. Locals may be interested in preserving the Sacachawacken valley river, and they need a presidential bid in order to understand that they have a lot in common with other locals seeking to prevent the ubercorporation Wal*Town from ensconching itself into their current quaint tourist destination.
Presidential bids provide general terms for local issues and create a macro plan by which concerted effort can realize common aspirations.
AIK
I Also think that Nader Voters WANT to not vote for Kerry and to Not vote for Bush. For Kerry to insist that they not be given the option is dubious - however, the left generally needs a right wing neonazi confederate southern baptist black lynching party of its own to force the right wing to defend its base.
Additionally you must consider the fact that software written in countries where street venders are shouting "Latest Brittany Spears for 2 ruppies" belongs to everyone.
Essentially only Open Source software can be developed in non-IP countries.
New York, NY The Grand Musicians Union (GMU) which represents live performers has sued 14,000 recording industry executives for "copying" their intellectual property and thereby undermining their right to work.
"These microphone devices are simple theft of our labor, and by suing the recording industry, we aim to put the world on notice that borrowed copies of the sounds we make will not be tolerated" Said GMU president George Brush.
"Microphones" he went on, "Are intended to reproduce copyrighted material, and are therefore misunllegal, along with kites, under the Digital Mullenelum Copyright Act."
The Recording Industry could not be reached for comment, but a recording on their answering machine in what appeared to be the voice of Ronald Reagan seems to be saying.
"We will develop this technology, and then we will share this technology with the Soviets"
Slashdot Mirror
Cables aren't rated in PSI. They are rated in minimum load at failure.
in fairness - i think you take it down when lightening is likely
but clearly all the bad things discused here happen when lightening strikes.
AIK
I think you hit the critical design faiure - the kite will need a ton of cable all engineered to solve the last link stress. If only a single link needed to overcome this weight, and the sequential links needed only to sustain their respective stress loads, the structure could be constructed. Wouldn't be safe or effecient, but it could be constructed.
The gyromill.
As much as i dislike the idea of being struck by an inflated kite - I dislike the idea of being struck by a 10 million volt dual propeller hat much worse. When that thing fails there's gonna be hell to pay.
"Hi - I'd like to take out an insurance policy - for this blender thing I want to put 10KM over manhatten"
Any insurance investors?
AIK
AIK
You miss important detail.
each cable must support the weight to the next kite, but each cable must also take its turn as the weakest link and be the final connection for all work product to be delivered to the generating hub.
Its probably a slow moving apparatus, so the force moment for 100,000 KWatts (at 1 Meter per second) is in the neighborhood of 100,000 Kgrams. That's a strong fishing line.
even at 10 Meters per second, the force moment is 10,000 Kgrams.
One optimization problem is that this force is not consistently experienced throughout the loop - which means that every link must be over engineered by several orders of magnitude.
the idea of generally catching more air is good though
A Vertical wing array
AIK
The kite has the potential to capture a minute percentage of power available for a given operational site. For safety reasons one needs a diameter roughly equal to the extended length which is roughly 1.5 times the operating altitude. The theoretical capacitity of a site is 59% of the available wind moment across the site in a plane perpendicular to the wind direction. A Kite would occupy only the tiniest fraction of this capacity and as such is highly ineffecient with respect to real estate. A Vertical wing array on the other hand interfaces all of the wind available to a site, and while it has aspects in common with a kite, it may resolve some of the issues mentioned here - primarily in that it does not seek the fastest air at impractical altitude, but simply increases surface area in low wind conditions for higher power to cost ratios. AIK
c'mon - i was funnin the numbers - like Geo Bush actually got more votes than anyone in history.
its a truism which is patently untrue.
George bush squeeked out the narrowest margin possible in a two way race - and suddendly he's the most wildly successful politician in the history of life.
Clinton actually outranked his opponents by a much wider margin than bush
aik
Hard to know for sure, but i think my design is Bird Safe.
It uses stretched tyvek surfaces (Think Denver International Airport) and large airfoils moving much slower than a propeller.
I think the nature folks are torn - but they want to see a design which is not a bird blender.
AIK
I've got more mouths than money I'm afraid.
/. collective mind thinks of Wind Power.
But I have been scetching scaleable wind generators for a year or so now - so this isn't just "bitching on Slashdot"
I'm genuinely interested in what the
My designs are based on stretched tyvek surfaces and blend the physics of kites, sailboats, and bird wings.
In theory one can build a huge self-rising structure of undulating airfoils and collect power from the oscillations. on a large scale - an axel bound design is limiting.
So i'm angling to be a contestant here.
But in truth - i'm not the genius - Burt Ruttan is, and if he was motivated by a challenge - i think he - and the gaggle of people he competes with, would be able to make an important step forward in Wind.
Wind is the answer I believe - it's been used before, is still used by most cultures for boats, and is viable in ways that solar for example is not.
AIK
I think the math suggests that 2000 difference may be better spent on sustainable power generation because it indicates that the affordable-effeciency gains for the current refridgerator have been exploited. If the remaining choice is non-cost effective exploits or more cost effective generation - then the smart money goes with the higher cost/benefit.
AIK
Nuclear generates a lot of heat. Even in the best of worlds, heat pollution would contribute to global warming I would think. Nuclear is destabilizing. Every pinhead nation wants a "nuclear" power station - which is a euphamism for - we want to make a bomb and terrorize the world. You can't share nuclear technology with hateful people - i doubt seriously that a windmill is ever likely to be used for threatening your neighbors.
AIK
Space Travel is not as dangerous - many more people have died scuba diving. So I guess maybe space travel is a way for whimps to experience scuba diving.
AIK
Noise.
... Our ability to change the friction cooeffecient of the earth surface is minial at best - a valid concern given the unintended effects of every other source of power - but bird deaths are a more valid deal-killer than the reverse effect.
The earth sucks power out of the wind anyway - trees, mountains etc
AIK
Like it or not - backward nations - even hateful backward nations such as Sudan - are a limited threat to the rest of the world. Rich hateful nations on the other hand are a pain in the ass.
Sure they've been using the sword for a few millinium. I'm not concerned about the sword - it's the moden warfare - and that is new - and highly dependent on oil wealth.
AIK
AIK
Bush protected the Oil Fields - he didn't protect the Weapons stores.
I'm thinking the Christians - under Father Bush - are killing the Muslims over Oil.
but poverty is caused more by government corruption and lawlessness than by lack of infrastructure.
While I agree on this point generally. We could give good infrastructure, that could lead to more education - and i think that is (one way) to give good government.
That and Tourism.
AIK
As long as we burn sulfer products into the air we breathe we have enough power - Ah ha - we have a different definition of enough power.
The truth is we have more surface area that resources - resources which are all power related.
If Africa had power enough to run reverse osmosis they could produce fresh water at will, pump it to wherever, and we could build las vegas's in the Sahara.
sustainable power is a better way to expand habitable acreage than space colonialization.
AIK
Space Travel is exciting - but everyone who wants to experience space is already a scuba diver - and the experience is largely the same.
Cost effective Wind Power (Kilowatts/Construction costs) would mean the end of middle east conflict, global warming, rural poverty in developing countries, lung disease in Beiging.
How else could you solve so many problem with a 10 million dollar prize. If Burt Rutan was focused on a lightweight scalable wind turbine - My guess is we'd be there by now. Instead we've invented a private version of the vomit comet.
AIK
Prize for an effecient Wind Power Station.
Perhaps something we need - like cost effective wind power designs that don't kill birds.
Seriously,
Rutan is a genius at aerodynamics, if that prize had been for a 10 dollar airfoild design to generate 100 killiwatts, we could have joined the kiyoto treaty rednecks notwithstanding.
AIK
O contrare
I bought a Sony laptop from the Sony Store in San Francisco in 2000 - I think the price was fair given it was a specialty item (Sub compact) and the help was reasonably informed.
Its a great store - in the sense that the atmosphere, the decor etc. , raises the bar for a quality experience and demonstrates in meatspace the various categories in which Sony has a substantial if not dominating presence.
The kids room with games wa fun safe and clean, the adults lounge is sophisticated and offered a full variety - that laptop went to 8 countries by train, so I really needed the right size (By the way I slipped it past customs search, it was that thin. - which is important when you're on a train between Budapest and Kiev in a starving village where the only source of income is alien extortion)
Sony has a lot to offer - and like apple, they combine a sense of style with their product - the store is the logical way to fully express the lifestyle space they have defined.
AIK
The trick is to capture and convert the heat - not the exhaust and convert it into more power.
At the end of the day - power density is more important than effeciency for portable power - so don't expect a great deal of concern about the cogen issue.
AIK
I tend to agree.
Lighting needs a macro plan on how it will get all the way from point a to b.
To be viable as a national party, it is necessary to demonstrate how a presidential candidate compares to the others, and how - what may seem like local issues - express themselves in a national debate. Locals may be interested in preserving the Sacachawacken valley river, and they need a presidential bid in order to understand that they have a lot in common with other locals seeking to prevent the ubercorporation Wal*Town from ensconching itself into their current quaint tourist destination.
Presidential bids provide general terms for local issues and create a macro plan by which concerted effort can realize common aspirations.
AIK
I Also think that Nader Voters WANT to not vote for Kerry and to Not vote for Bush. For Kerry to insist that they not be given the option is dubious - however, the left generally needs a right wing neonazi confederate southern baptist black lynching party of its own to force the right wing to defend its base.
Additionally you must consider the fact that software written in countries where street venders are shouting "Latest Brittany Spears for 2 ruppies" belongs to everyone.
Essentially only Open Source software can be developed in non-IP countries.
AIK
New York, NY
The Grand Musicians Union (GMU) which represents live performers has sued 14,000 recording industry executives for "copying" their intellectual property and thereby undermining their right to work.
"These microphone devices are simple theft of our labor, and by suing the recording industry, we aim to put the world on notice that borrowed copies of the sounds we make will not be tolerated" Said GMU president George Brush.
"Microphones" he went on, "Are intended to reproduce copyrighted material, and are therefore misunllegal, along with kites, under the Digital Mullenelum Copyright Act."
The Recording Industry could not be reached for comment, but a recording on their answering machine in what appeared to be the voice of Ronald Reagan seems to be saying.
"We will develop this technology, and then we will share this technology with the Soviets"
AP
Yeah, and if you're unlucky - you will lock the steering wheel in the far left position.
When he hung up with you, the same b+ Indian guy named oddly "Steve Thompson". Called to "confirm" all the details of my home morgage.
..."
Me "So what does your mother call you.?" I love indian food, had it for lunch. Tell me more about where you live - do you live in Bamm?"
Him "So to check your address"
Me - I live in "Indian Trail" surely you know how to spell that.
He "Are you playing games here sir.
ME "You're the one who said your name is Steve Thompson, I'm not the one making things up here
Generally - yes, tele,arketing should be made more costly.
BTW what is you opinion of Spamming drivers with placards on telephone poles?
AIK