I agree w/you on the training. I see the different sides to why making it a law is not received well by some. I took my first classes so I could get my concealed weapons permit. I have friends who wont take the classes because they don't feel comfortable with the information they have to give the government about themselves to get the permit. If you hang around here much you should be able to understand that sentiment.
I disagree on the number of people qualified to handle a weapon well- and on the frequency with which fire arms save lives- or at least help stop criminals. But I doubt either position can be 'proved'.
You are absolutely right. Just going out and buying a gun is not enough. That is just the very beginning. (Actually it should be part of a process that started well before owning the gun but still- it's at the beginning somewhere).
But I really believe more people should stop shirking there responsibility and start taking the necessary steps to be able to be proactive in their community. It would help lessen the amount of violent crime in this country.
If you don't know of any cases where armed civilians have done good things with their firearms you have not looked too hard. It happens on a regular basis. Often it does not make it to the news as it is a non-event.
I personally watched a friend (he is now a police officer but was not at the time of the event) run out to a traffic accident - draw down on a man who was about to take a bat to a kid who had caused the accident- and keep a beating from happening. One that could have been lethal.
A close friend of mine witnessed an estranged boy friend in the process of kidnapping his ex girlfriend from a grocery store parking lot. (He didn't know the situation at the time- just saw a guy grabbing a screaming woman and throwing her in a truck). He drew his pistol- tried to stop the guy and got hit by the truck.
He didn't save her then and there- but he did his best. The whole scene got a call put through to the police and they were able to stop the truck and apprehend the man. He had a knife and had told the girl he was going to kill her.
I could go on all day. You would be unwise to take my word for it (and I don't think you would) but if you dig a little you'll find that you are mistaken when you say this never happens.
If there is such a thing as an average person I am it. Average people can handle guns in a manner that is not dangerous but rather beneficial. I am not rare among gun owners. I would say that many more of us than you think take our freedom very seriously and weild it accordingly.
I appreciate the humor of your post but the 2 situations are in no way comparable.
Whether or not I were to win the lotter (if I played) is out of my hands. Whether or not some criminal decides to try and kill someone in my prescence is out of my hands.
How I store my fire arms and the impact that has on the likelyhood of there being stolen is very much something I can control.
People who keep guns in closets, drawers, under the pillow, in the car, etc. skew the 'odds' that my guns will be stolen. I don't do those things.
Could someone steal them from me? Yes. But it would be incredibly difficult. If they are not on my person - they are locked in a very large safe that is bolted to the concrete foundation of my home.
It would take a lot of time and effort to get that thing open - or remove it whole from the house.
The odds that someone would take my guns is considerably lower than those of someone who does not take precautions.
You are right. If my kids were with me that would make a difference. But I spend a lot of time driving by myself.
As for walking up to him- I would just need to be w/in 30 yards or so. Depending on the situation and just where he was I'd try to get the most out of my car as a shield and a place to keep my arms steady. I've got 9 shots (8 in the clip and 1 in the chamber) and another 8 in my extra clip.
He had a rifle so that would make it tough but with the amount of time I've put in on the range and the way this guy behaved I feel pretty confidant that he would not have been shooting for long.
But 100% surety of success is not the main thing. The main thing is doing the right thing because that is what humans need to do to maintain what we have worked so hard to build. There are barbarians in the gates. To sit by idly is to watch it all burn. I wont do it.
This guy was just standing on a street corner shooting at cars as they went by. He was probably a nut cake. Pulling over, taking cover and firing on him would not be difficult. I've had training to do so. (taught by the same officer who teaches the police of my city- in some classes at a local community college- we spent lots of time in the class room, on the range and practicing w/other methods. We also worked on non-lethal means to deal w/criminals.)
You underestimate what good training can do and how little of it criminals have. I have an incredible advantage over some idiot waving a pistol around in the air.
A while back a Phoenix, AZ police officer was following a car containing 3 Mexican nationals who were drug dealers. He came around a corner into an ambush and was killed by the 3 of them. A car behind the police car had an armed civilian in it.
He opened fire- holding his gun w/only one hand out the drivers side window. (so not just one handed but w/his off hand).
I don't remember specifics right now but he hit at least one of the criminals- forced them to flee on foot and all 3 were apprehended. Awesome work.
He didn't save the cop but he took 3 very dangerous people off the street. An armed, trained citizenry can have a very positive impact on society.
You having a gun would have helped if you were in one of those cars how?
If I were in one of those cars- probably not- we would have been heading to the hospital as rapidly as possible. If I had been in one of the many, many cars there at the time. That would have been a different story. I would have stopped and killed him. Maybe save a life or 2 while I'm at it. That's what I mean by an individual's responsibility towards the whole. If 10 more people like me had been there- even if all 3 hit had been packing, that leaves 7 to take care of business.
Do you play the lottery?
No - it is taxation of the poor.
Do you have any idea how small the odds are that someone will try to kill you with a gun?
Yes. It's funny that you mention it because I bring up the same point in discussions all the time. I am astonished that so many people think that they have a chance of winning the lottery but find it inconceivable that someone else may try to harm them. I am not willing to gamble on the hope I never need my gun.
Do you know how LARGE the odds are that the guy shooting those people stole his gun from someone just like you who has it legally? This is why I hate statistics like that. They are meaningless. You have no idea what the odds are of someone stealing my guns. I take extreme care to secure my fire arms. I take my freedoms and responsibilities very seriously. I have invested considerable money, time and effort to be sure that what you describe does not happen.
And last but not least I am not interested in comparisons between the U.S. and anywhere. We are not Canada. There are what 10 people living in that country? (just a joke- lighten up) I don't want to live there if for no other reason than I don't feel like dealing with sucky health care. (Don't try to argue the point with me there please- I wont reply I'm just answering your question)
There were no 'Indians' in Canada? You need to read some history. You do not live on land that stood empty for thousands of years waiting for the ancestors of all those French and English Canadians to show up.
Enough of that- Just trying to answer some of your questions.
I know as one who carries daily- I don't ever feel a need to brandish a weapon. The day I draw it will be to shoot - to kill. It is not a macho thing- it is a rational, self defense thing. What brandishing a gun gets you is jail time.
Yes- your neighborhood is that dangerous.
3 people died in my city last night. They were killed by some guy on a street corner shooting at cars that drove by. One was a 20 year old woman- 2 months pregnant. Her and the baby died.
I wouldn't kill someone to protect my property but I would do it to protect my wife - my children - or for that matter you. If I am driving down the street and see someone that is presenting the threat of death to another- I will step in.
Our constitutional rights and the responsibilities of freedom extend beyond selfish needs. They extend to what an individual can do to maintain the body politic. If more able bodied/minded citizens would stop shirking their responsibility to make this world a safe place- it would be a much safer place.
We could go on all day I guess. I doubt I'll change your mind but the folks who desire to own and use guns are not as simple minded as you imply.
Nice thought but you know that is a rationalization. The ACLU does not defend gun ownership because they are by and large a politically liberal group. Not because they are thankful that the NRA is taking care of part of the job. Any other excuse is just that.
A lot of people will/have ask what business this has on/.
Personally I'm wondering too- though for what it is worth every time I read arguments about freedom in regards to softare/tech stuff I am stunned by the parallels in the gun control arena.
Should hardware or software that COULD be used to circumvent the law be illegal? Even if there are other uses that are not illegal?
What about personal responsibility?
And for my opinion on the question itself. I will add what I believe to be a fact that would add a lot of reason to the debate.
Gun control cannot work in America without the citizenry of the U.S. giving up a lot more of their personal freedoms. It is too easy for Americans to come and go as they please- to keep things private in their homes and buy/sell things in private- unregulated transactions.
As long as this is true gun control will be unworkable. If you doubt this look at how incredibly innefective gun control has been to this point in time.
The parallels to the war on drugs are also interesting but I've gone on enough already.
There are a couple issues that come to mind rather quickly--
The first being that I believe they may be able to start trying to do this in a year but it would take time to get it to work. And I would hate to see what the failures will look like. I would think that rejection would be a major issue. And the bottom line is they've never done this before- there will be bugs to work out.
The second- is what if they could do the whole deal perfectly? What if you could have some dead persons face?
I picture someone walking in a mall and they see their son who committed suicide a bit back walking by. Or bumping into a lost spouse.
This is a much less than ideal solution. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it- but it does need to be really thought out.
I agree with you for the most part but the bit in bold.
A lot of innocent people are in prison right now. A lot of the people on death row right now did not commit the crime for which they will die. (This is a fact not my opinion- DNA evidence has proven this to be the case again and again.)
I'm all for punishing people who violate the law but we must always watch the watchmen- for they are human and prone to fall.
The wireless part is for ordering and also can be used to change prices. But it does not dynamically hand out ips- they are fixed- and there are no extra addresses either. So you would need to get one of the telxon devices off the network- then there is the passwords, etc.
And then there is no connection from that out to the internet. They are connected to T1s that go straight to Salt Lake (least they did when I was there)
(I worked for Safeway for about 7 years but left the industry about 2 years ago)
These are cool ideas that will help businesses cater to their best customers. I don't see what is wrong with that. It is usually a minority of your customers that provide the majority of your business. Keeping them happy should definitely be a priority.
Many of the ideas for the carts are very, very similar to what we we did w/the online shopping that Safeway offers. They've just moved the technology into the store- out of the browser. It is interesting to me that folks would not get so worked up about those things being in place when they are online- but get riled up when it is in the store.
I would be interested in what they do to make the hardware durable.
All Safeway stores already have wireless equipement and a LAN in the store. (we moved from token ring to ethernet here in AZ 5 or 6 years ago)
No- it's not the other way around. This is exactly what happened w/my company.
We decided that using Linux could help us out w/a couple things that we wanted to do- but we were short on cash to go the MS route.
So I went to Frys Electronics and picked up RedHat. I installed it, learned how to do the stuff we wanted to do, and found out 2 things. Pretty much all the software - and support- you need are available for free.
The community provides so much more than development.
One project we needed was a server running SSH for transfering files over a dedicated T1 between us and a client. You don't need me to tell you that it was cake.
Our other larger project is focused on Apache, PHP and PostgreSQL. There is great, free support out there for all those products.
We bought the box to get started - planned to buy support but dropped those plans when we say that the open source community will provide you with tons of support.
That may not be good enough for some big companies- but for someone in the middle and (always) strapped for cash- it is great.
I'm a programmer. I had my eyes done about 4 years ago. I've had no problmes. I did get a 'starburst' on bright lights at night but it is actually milder than the same effect when I wore glasses.
I had the procedure mainly because glasses interfered w/hunting and other outdoor sports.
From what I understand- the greater the correction needed, the greater the risks. My vision was not too bad prior to the procedure and better than 20/20 in both eyes after it was done.
Really- those 'robot' (remote controled thingys are not robots) 'battle' (if crap isn't blowing up or burning and there's no danger of any kind to any thing it's not a battle or war) pretty much suck. I'm dead serious.
.
Re:First tell me what you're talking about.
on
Libranet 2.7 Released
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
You've got to be kidding
Jon wrote in with news that Libranet 2.7 has been released. I've never tried Libranet, but Debian 3.0 is a fine, up-to-date OS with the usual Debian installation (harder than necessary), so if Libranet offers that Debian goodness with a better installer it should be an excellent choice for both experienced and newbie users.
If you can't figure out from the context that Libranet is a Debian based distro from this description- and then you went to the Libranet home page and couldn't figure it out- then you leave me w/questions as well. Questions like "How does someone this stupid figure out how to start a browser and get on the web?"
When I came to my current job- the I.S. Director thought Linux was 'hacker junk'.
Well a lot of factors have come together and now he comes to me on a regular basis and says- "find me something open source that does such and such" We have 2 Linux servers up and running and we are looking to move a bunck of our desktops to Linux (using a browser for their apps)
Slashdot Mirror
I agree w/you on the training. I see the different sides to why making it a law is not received well by some. I took my first classes so I could get my concealed weapons permit. I have friends who wont take the classes because they don't feel comfortable with the information they have to give the government about themselves to get the permit. If you hang around here much you should be able to understand that sentiment.
I disagree on the number of people qualified to handle a weapon well- and on the frequency with which fire arms save lives- or at least help stop criminals. But I doubt either position can be 'proved'.
You are absolutely right. Just going out and buying a gun is not enough. That is just the very beginning. (Actually it should be part of a process that started well before owning the gun but still- it's at the beginning somewhere).
But I really believe more people should stop shirking there responsibility and start taking the necessary steps to be able to be proactive in their community. It would help lessen the amount of violent crime in this country.
If you don't know of any cases where armed civilians have done good things with their firearms you have not looked too hard. It happens on a regular basis. Often it does not make it to the news as it is a non-event.
I personally watched a friend (he is now a police officer but was not at the time of the event) run out to a traffic accident - draw down on a man who was about to take a bat to a kid who had caused the accident- and keep a beating from happening. One that could have been lethal.
A close friend of mine witnessed an estranged boy friend in the process of kidnapping his ex girlfriend from a grocery store parking lot. (He didn't know the situation at the time- just saw a guy grabbing a screaming woman and throwing her in a truck). He drew his pistol- tried to stop the guy and got hit by the truck.
He didn't save her then and there- but he did his best. The whole scene got a call put through to the police and they were able to stop the truck and apprehend the man. He had a knife and had told the girl he was going to kill her.
I could go on all day. You would be unwise to take my word for it (and I don't think you would) but if you dig a little you'll find that you are mistaken when you say this never happens.
If there is such a thing as an average person I am it. Average people can handle guns in a manner that is not dangerous but rather beneficial. I am not rare among gun owners. I would say that many more of us than you think take our freedom very seriously and weild it accordingly.
.
I appreciate the humor of your post but the 2 situations are in no way comparable.
Whether or not I were to win the lotter (if I played) is out of my hands. Whether or not some criminal decides to try and kill someone in my prescence is out of my hands.
How I store my fire arms and the impact that has on the likelyhood of there being stolen is very much something I can control.
People who keep guns in closets, drawers, under the pillow, in the car, etc. skew the 'odds' that my guns will be stolen. I don't do those things.
Could someone steal them from me? Yes. But it would be incredibly difficult. If they are not on my person - they are locked in a very large safe that is bolted to the concrete foundation of my home.
It would take a lot of time and effort to get that thing open - or remove it whole from the house.
The odds that someone would take my guns is considerably lower than those of someone who does not take precautions.
.
You are right. If my kids were with me that would make a difference. But I spend a lot of time driving by myself.
As for walking up to him- I would just need to be w/in 30 yards or so. Depending on the situation and just where he was I'd try to get the most out of my car as a shield and a place to keep my arms steady. I've got 9 shots (8 in the clip and 1 in the chamber) and another 8 in my extra clip.
He had a rifle so that would make it tough but with the amount of time I've put in on the range and the way this guy behaved I feel pretty confidant that he would not have been shooting for long.
But 100% surety of success is not the main thing. The main thing is doing the right thing because that is what humans need to do to maintain what we have worked so hard to build. There are barbarians in the gates. To sit by idly is to watch it all burn. I wont do it.
.
This guy was just standing on a street corner shooting at cars as they went by. He was probably a nut cake. Pulling over, taking cover and firing on him would not be difficult. I've had training to do so. (taught by the same officer who teaches the police of my city- in some classes at a local community college- we spent lots of time in the class room, on the range and practicing w/other methods. We also worked on non-lethal means to deal w/criminals.)
You underestimate what good training can do and how little of it criminals have. I have an incredible advantage over some idiot waving a pistol around in the air.
A while back a Phoenix, AZ police officer was following a car containing 3 Mexican nationals who were drug dealers. He came around a corner into an ambush and was killed by the 3 of them. A car behind the police car had an armed civilian in it.
He opened fire- holding his gun w/only one hand out the drivers side window. (so not just one handed but w/his off hand).
I don't remember specifics right now but he hit at least one of the criminals- forced them to flee on foot and all 3 were apprehended. Awesome work.
He didn't save the cop but he took 3 very dangerous people off the street. An armed, trained citizenry can have a very positive impact on society.
.
You think this justifies you carrying a gun.
Yes
You having a gun would have helped if you were in one of those cars how?
If I were in one of those cars- probably not- we would have been heading to the hospital as rapidly as possible. If I had been in one of the many, many cars there at the time. That would have been a different story. I would have stopped and killed him. Maybe save a life or 2 while I'm at it. That's what I mean by an individual's responsibility towards the whole. If 10 more people like me had been there- even if all 3 hit had been packing, that leaves 7 to take care of business.
Do you play the lottery?
No - it is taxation of the poor.
Do you have any idea how small the odds are that someone will try to kill you with a gun?
Yes. It's funny that you mention it because I bring up the same point in discussions all the time. I am astonished that so many people think that they have a chance of winning the lottery but find it inconceivable that someone else may try to harm them. I am not willing to gamble on the hope I never need my gun.
Do you know how LARGE the odds are that the guy shooting those people stole his gun from someone just like you who has it legally?
This is why I hate statistics like that. They are meaningless. You have no idea what the odds are of someone stealing my guns. I take extreme care to secure my fire arms. I take my freedoms and responsibilities very seriously. I have invested considerable money, time and effort to be sure that what you describe does not happen.
And last but not least I am not interested in comparisons between the U.S. and anywhere. We are not Canada. There are what 10 people living in that country? (just a joke- lighten up) I don't want to live there if for no other reason than I don't feel like dealing with sucky health care. (Don't try to argue the point with me there please- I wont reply I'm just answering your question)
There were no 'Indians' in Canada? You need to read some history. You do not live on land that stood empty for thousands of years waiting for the ancestors of all those French and English Canadians to show up.
Enough of that- Just trying to answer some of your questions.
You are incorrect.
If you kill a pregnant women (who could have herself decided to abort) and an unborn child you can be charged and prosecuted for both deaths.
.
Truly spoken with a lack of information.
I know as one who carries daily- I don't ever feel a need to brandish a weapon. The day I draw it will be to shoot - to kill. It is not a macho thing- it is a rational, self defense thing. What brandishing a gun gets you is jail time.
Yes- your neighborhood is that dangerous.
3 people died in my city last night. They were killed by some guy on a street corner shooting at cars that drove by. One was a 20 year old woman- 2 months pregnant. Her and the baby died.
I wouldn't kill someone to protect my property but I would do it to protect my wife - my children - or for that matter you. If I am driving down the street and see someone that is presenting the threat of death to another- I will step in.
Our constitutional rights and the responsibilities of freedom extend beyond selfish needs. They extend to what an individual can do to maintain the body politic. If more able bodied/minded citizens would stop shirking their responsibility to make this world a safe place- it would be a much safer place.
We could go on all day I guess. I doubt I'll change your mind but the folks who desire to own and use guns are not as simple minded as you imply.
.
Nice thought but you know that is a rationalization. The ACLU does not defend gun ownership because they are by and large a politically liberal group. Not because they are thankful that the NRA is taking care of part of the job. Any other excuse is just that.
.
A lot of people will/have ask what business this has on /.
Personally I'm wondering too- though for what it is worth every time I read arguments about freedom in regards to softare/tech stuff I am stunned by the parallels in the gun control arena.
Should hardware or software that COULD be used to circumvent the law be illegal? Even if there are other uses that are not illegal?
What about personal responsibility?
And for my opinion on the question itself. I will add what I believe to be a fact that would add a lot of reason to the debate.
Gun control cannot work in America without the citizenry of the U.S. giving up a lot more of their personal freedoms. It is too easy for Americans to come and go as they please- to keep things private in their homes and buy/sell things in private- unregulated transactions.
As long as this is true gun control will be unworkable. If you doubt this look at how incredibly innefective gun control has been to this point in time.
The parallels to the war on drugs are also interesting but I've gone on enough already.
.
You've gotta feel for little ol ICANN.
And those junkets aren't jet setting fun, they are work! In hotels!
What a sorry politician that guy is- he can't even come up w/half decent b.s.
.
Well that was my best chuckle of the day. You get the point across so much better than the 'Get a spell checker!' folks.
Good Show.
.
Extremely funny- made me laugh a lot.
But don't worry about the disclaimers in the future. If somebody needs the joke explained - they are too stupid to appreciate it anyway.
It just takes some of the sweetness away.
Maybe you fear for your karma. Don't. The path to true humor does not lie upon that road.
.
I'd rather just be dumped in Cryo and live a dream life w/my face all better and the love of my life at my side.
.
There are a couple issues that come to mind rather quickly--
The first being that I believe they may be able to start trying to do this in a year but it would take time to get it to work. And I would hate to see what the failures will look like. I would think that rejection would be a major issue. And the bottom line is they've never done this before- there will be bugs to work out.
The second- is what if they could do the whole deal perfectly? What if you could have some dead persons face?
I picture someone walking in a mall and they see their son who committed suicide a bit back walking by. Or bumping into a lost spouse.
This is a much less than ideal solution. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it- but it does need to be really thought out.
.
I agree with you for the most part but the bit in bold.
A lot of innocent people are in prison right now. A lot of the people on death row right now did not commit the crime for which they will die. (This is a fact not my opinion- DNA evidence has proven this to be the case again and again.)
I'm all for punishing people who violate the law but we must always watch the watchmen- for they are human and prone to fall.
.
And what do you do after you look for a place and their isn't one?
I guess dead stick takes on a whole new meaning then.
I'd much rather come down vertically and slowly into a stand of trees as opposed to horizontally and fast.
.
The wireless part is for ordering and also can be used to change prices. But it does not dynamically hand out ips- they are fixed- and there are no extra addresses either. So you would need to get one of the telxon devices off the network- then there is the passwords, etc.
And then there is no connection from that out to the internet. They are connected to T1s that go straight to Salt Lake (least they did when I was there)
.
(I worked for Safeway for about 7 years but left the industry about 2 years ago)
These are cool ideas that will help businesses cater to their best customers. I don't see what is wrong with that. It is usually a minority of your customers that provide the majority of your business. Keeping them happy should definitely be a priority.
Many of the ideas for the carts are very, very similar to what we we did w/the online shopping that Safeway offers. They've just moved the technology into the store- out of the browser. It is interesting to me that folks would not get so worked up about those things being in place when they are online- but get riled up when it is in the store.
I would be interested in what they do to make the hardware durable.
All Safeway stores already have wireless equipement and a LAN in the store. (we moved from token ring to ethernet here in AZ 5 or 6 years ago)
Cool stuff I think.
.
No- it's not the other way around. This is exactly what happened w/my company.
We decided that using Linux could help us out w/a couple things that we wanted to do- but we were short on cash to go the MS route.
So I went to Frys Electronics and picked up RedHat. I installed it, learned how to do the stuff we wanted to do, and found out 2 things. Pretty much all the software - and support- you need are available for free.
The community provides so much more than development.
One project we needed was a server running SSH for transfering files over a dedicated T1 between us and a client. You don't need me to tell you that it was cake.
Our other larger project is focused on Apache, PHP and PostgreSQL. There is great, free support out there for all those products.
We bought the box to get started - planned to buy support but dropped those plans when we say that the open source community will provide you with tons of support.
That may not be good enough for some big companies- but for someone in the middle and (always) strapped for cash- it is great.
.
I'm a programmer. I had my eyes done about 4 years ago. I've had no problmes. I did get a 'starburst' on bright lights at night but it is actually milder than the same effect when I wore glasses.
I had the procedure mainly because glasses interfered w/hunting and other outdoor sports.
From what I understand- the greater the correction needed, the greater the risks. My vision was not too bad prior to the procedure and better than 20/20 in both eyes after it was done.
I would do it again in a heart beat.
.
is give peace a chance.
.
You are so freaking correct it pains me.
No missiles or projectiles?
No EMP weapons?
I take more chances mowing my lawn!
Really- those 'robot' (remote controled thingys are not robots) 'battle' (if crap isn't blowing up or burning and there's no danger of any kind to any thing it's not a battle or war) pretty much suck. I'm dead serious.
.
You've got to be kidding
Jon wrote in with news that Libranet 2.7 has been released. I've never tried Libranet, but Debian 3.0 is a fine, up-to-date OS with the usual Debian installation (harder than necessary), so if Libranet offers that Debian goodness with a better installer it should be an excellent choice for both experienced and newbie users.
If you can't figure out from the context that Libranet is a Debian based distro from this description- and then you went to the Libranet home page and couldn't figure it out- then you leave me w/questions as well. Questions like "How does someone this stupid figure out how to start a browser and get on the web?"
Don't you mean Corel Linux?
.
When I came to my current job- the I.S. Director thought Linux was 'hacker junk'.
Well a lot of factors have come together and now he comes to me on a regular basis and says- "find me something open source that does such and such" We have 2 Linux servers up and running and we are looking to move a bunck of our desktops to Linux (using a browser for their apps)
The main driving reason has been cost.
.