According to the Catholic Encyclopedia [newadvent.org], "Lucifer" was Venus, and was Satan's name before his fall.
Doh! Yes, of course. s/Mercury/Venus/ in my previous comment. I repeated the earlier poster's conflation of Mercury and Venus without error-checking.
Thanks for the added info. I'm still not clear, though, on whether Helel refers to the Morning Star (i.e., Venus when occidental) or just to the Adversary. That is, was the association between the planet and the fallen angel made prior to the Septaugint's use of Heosphoros (``Dawn-bringer,'' equiv. to Lucifer) to refer to the angel as well as the Morning Star?
I guess the larger question, in my mind, is whether the pre-Rabbinic Jews associated luminaries with angels, or if that association came when Christians fused Classical astrology with the Hebraic tradition.
Mercury's appearance in the morning was called Apollo,
What I find interesting is that the Romans called the morning appearance of Mercury ``Lucifer'' -- the light-bringer. AFAIK that came before the use of ``Lucifer'' to refer to the fallen angel. Does anyone know if there was a connection between Satan and the planet Mercury in any Hebrew tradition?
light is not the only source of energy possible you know. Technically some plant on some planet could develop a way to effeciently absorb heat and use that in a photosynthesis like process.
If they weren't doing photosynthesis, however, why on earth (er, on planet?) would they look anything like terrestrial plants? There is a practically infinite variety of forms to choose from, and non-photosynthetic plants could just as well look like mushrooms, or brown algae, or whatever -- but there'd be no reason to grow up if they weren't trying to reach light.
Ceres is a god of grains and stuff, if i remembere right ( Dunno roman or greek).
Nah, Ceres is the goddess of Corn Flakes.
Seriously, Ceres is the Roman goddess of grain, harvest, etc.--hence cereal (in the original sense of wheat and similar grains). The same derivation gets us venereal from Venus, BTW.
One of my housemates (who is Northern Irish) is a fervent believer in a literal seven days creation. I didn't discover this until I'd shared a house with him for a while - it came up in conversation with another housemate. ...
it isn't just the US where people have these 'preposterous' beliefs.:-)
It's not just the U.S. and Northern Ireland, they have 'em in Australia and South Africa too. Hmm. Maybe there's a pattern there...
The trouble is that real science journalism is so easily displaced by the free content provided by corporate PR departments. Real science journalism costs money to do, and doesn't bring in any more eyeballs than press releases about Olestra fighting obesity, etc.
This isn't restricted to science reporting, but is the basis for most of what is problematic in the news media. Not only is it much cheaper to regurgitate what the corporate (or Federal) PR folks give you, if you don't (i.e., if you poke around doing investigation, and then point out the inaccuracies in the press releases) you won't be invited to the next press conference, and you won't get the next story at all.
That's how the media have been completely tamed without any need for conspiracy whatsoever. Sad.
I assume that preserves all font/style/size information, right?
Why the hell would I want it to? That's possibly the most obnoxious thing I can imagine. If I copy text from, say, a Web page, to an OpenOffice doc, I want that text to appear in the font face, style, and size of the current context, not what I copied from. Why on earth would I want it to be in the old face/style/size, just so I can waste time fixing it to match the rest of the text in my document?
Except he was not really a Frenchman for France did not really exist back then.
If you're talking about states, then practically no currently existing state existed in 732. The French monarchy existed more than, for example, the German, Italian, or Danish. (I don't recall if the Merovingian monarchs used the title rex francorum or not--WW-Person
gives their title in German as ``König im Frankenreich.'') To the extent that you can talk about any nation existing in the eighth century, it is fair to speak of Franks/French.
Your point was, of course, that French were quite battle-worthy some time ago. This point would've better proven by bringing up the Napoleon's name. Much more recent too:-)
If that were the only point, then yes, Napoléon would have been a better example (It took all of Europe united to bring him down). However, since the poster to which I was responding decided to invoke the mediaeval Islamic threat to Europe, I thought it appropriate to mention that the person who ended that invasion was Frankish/French.
Oh, look... An Aryan troll... Put away your white hood for a moment and pay attention.
scripsit JonTurner:
(If it weren't for the English Channel, friend, they would have taken England in the 6th century.)
I'm amazed at how ignorant of history people can be... Let's see:
The Hejirah was AD 622. Hard to see how they could have been threatening England before the religion was even formed.
The Islamic armies crossed into Spain AD 711.
The Islamic invasion of Europe was defeated by Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours AD 732.
Yes, that's right -- by a Frenchman. If it weren't for the cowardly, afraid-to-fight, always-surrendering French, the entirety of Western Europe would have falled to the armies of the Khalifat in the eighth century.
If, somehow, you believe that living under Muslim rule doesn't "impinge", you're clueless.
Have you lived under Muslim rule? I have. I lived for three years in an Arab country in which Islam is constitutionally the state religion -- and I happen not to be a Muslim. Were there things that sucked, like it being illegal to buy beer on Mohamed's birthday? Sure. I'd definitely rather live there, though, than in many places in the American South. Whatever impact backward religious restrictions there were restricted me less than those in some counties in Texas would. The problems the Arab world faces with liberty are due to the oppressive military dictatorships which the U.S. has kept in power, not to the people's faith.
Next time, stop and think before you shoot off your stupid mouth.
I am confident that you will do the rest of us the same honor.
Damn! From Arizona State my pings are 45-55ms to most Internet2 EDUs. MIT, interestingly, is one of the worst at 70+ms -- strange because, since it all goes through Abilene, a trip to California is longer than to MIT.
You sure you don't have something special out to FSU? I can't even get to Abilene in less than 20ms.
IMO, Pluto qualifies as a planet because it's held together by its own gravitational forces. Planetoids are held together solely by chemical forces (ie. just one big rock). Heck, Pluto even has its own atmosphere.
(I've been away from anything resembling planetary science for a while, so please be gentle with me if I'm talking nonsense...)
I was under the impression that there are now thought to be many Kuiper belt objects (KBOs) quite like Pluto and similar to it in size... I suspect (though I don't know where the cutoff is) that at least some of these objects are also held together gravitationally -- which would then make them all planets, as I understand your definition. Would you agree? Or might there be a better way to distinguish planets from KBOs and other ``objects''?
Still we can at least rule out a manned mission - the Jovian magnetosphere would cook any Frank Pooles and Dave Bowmans long before they got to Europa.
And we branded the data, so we'll find those varmints that did this and look at the brand we put on and get every last one of those rustled digits back.
UT, in conjunction with the U.S. Attorney's Office, the U.S. Secret Service, and other law enforcement agencies, has focused its efforts since Sunday evening on identifying the perpetrator(s) of the break-in and recapturing the stolen data.
Someone is more than a little bit confused about the nature of digital storage if they think they can `recapture the stolen data'.
`Ah, cool, we've managed to delete the copy they made of our data.'
(whispers)
`Another copy? How many copies did they steal?'
I'm not saying that the reviewers are kissing manufacturer backsides, but I wouldn't be surprised if they temper their bad reviews.
FooCo's new Bar 9999XQZ card beats all contenders, posting an impressive 10% increase on the Quuxmark, compared with FooCo's previous best card. I know that I, for one, can't wait to get this baby into my gaming box.
FooCo's new Bar 9999XQZ card, despite costing three times as much as their existing model, can barely manage a 10% increase on the Quuxmark. Guys, don't waste your money.
For a man and a woman in a technical field, with the same time in the job market, with similar time-taken-off rates, the woman will be paid about 98% of what the man is paid.
97.5% of the time, when people cite percentages, I get suspicious.
Seriously, though, I can follow your logic here. I would like to know your source for the 98% figure, though. I'd hate to repeat it and get called out and be unable to back it up;)
(A perfectly competitive labor market would be socialist.)
Care to explain this? What does the competitiveness (or lack thereof) of labour markets have to do with the relationship of labour to the ownership of capital?
(BTW, you might want to tighten up your use of words like `liberal' -- in precise [i.e., non-talk-radio] usage, `liberal' == `free market'; `liberal' != `leftist')
They're in frickin' middle school. Their homework is algebra, not write a ten page research paper.
Y'know, if the majority of the kids are learning algebra by 8th grade, Maine's not so bad off. In Arizona (where I went to school), only a small fraction (<10%) of the kids did algebra in middle school. It was possible to graduate high school with no algebra at all.
didn't business learn this back in early 1900's... there were lots of studies about factory workers and those that were given some attention liked their job more.
Around 1900 things were a bit different. That was back when there was a labor movement which was powerful, socialist, and struck fear into the hearts of the capital-owning classes. What concessions there were to workers were made when they couldn't get the National Guard to break a strike; violence was often the preferred response. (Of course, troops were used to break strikes even during the Reagan years in Arizona...)
Don't paint too rosy a picture of capital at that time; there was nothing enlightened about it. "Liked their job more" just wasn't a concern of capital.
GNU/Linux is nasty to prepare wireless on. This comes from experience. I had to pull the packets to my Thinkpad by hand!
I'm sorry you had such a difficult time of it. I can only relate my own experience with Debian Sarge on a Dell Latitude with an Orinoco card. Here's how it went: With laptop off, pop in wifi card. Boot. I'm on line. If I have booted without the card, doing an 'ifup eth0' is all it takes to bring it up. It's totally transparent to me whether I have the Orinoco or an ethernet card in; both work without any effort save the occasional ifdown eth0 / ifup eth0 when changing from one to the other.
Slashdot Mirror
scripsit 1u3hr:
Doh! Yes, of course. s/Mercury/Venus/ in my previous comment. I repeated the earlier poster's conflation of Mercury and Venus without error-checking.
Thanks for the added info. I'm still not clear, though, on whether Helel refers to the Morning Star (i.e., Venus when occidental) or just to the Adversary. That is, was the association between the planet and the fallen angel made prior to the Septaugint's use of Heosphoros (``Dawn-bringer,'' equiv. to Lucifer) to refer to the angel as well as the Morning Star?
I guess the larger question, in my mind, is whether the pre-Rabbinic Jews associated luminaries with angels, or if that association came when Christians fused Classical astrology with the Hebraic tradition.
scripsit lu3hr:
What I find interesting is that the Romans called the morning appearance of Mercury ``Lucifer'' -- the light-bringer. AFAIK that came before the use of ``Lucifer'' to refer to the fallen angel. Does anyone know if there was a connection between Satan and the planet Mercury in any Hebrew tradition?
scripsit gripdamage:
Or all the KBOs which started this whole thing!
scripsit minus_273:
If they weren't doing photosynthesis, however, why on earth (er, on planet?) would they look anything like terrestrial plants? There is a practically infinite variety of forms to choose from, and non-photosynthetic plants could just as well look like mushrooms, or brown algae, or whatever -- but there'd be no reason to grow up if they weren't trying to reach light.
scripsit Malicious:
Nomen lunae Terrae ``Luna'' est.
That doesn't clear things up; it's just punting the terminological problem onto the poor Latin-speakers.
scripsit watzinaneihm:
Nah, Ceres is the goddess of Corn Flakes.
Seriously, Ceres is the Roman goddess of grain, harvest, etc.--hence cereal (in the original sense of wheat and similar grains). The same derivation gets us venereal from Venus, BTW.
Her Anglo-Greek name is Demeter.
scripsit Amroarer:
It's not just the U.S. and Northern Ireland, they have 'em in Australia and South Africa too. Hmm. Maybe there's a pattern there...
scripsit aquarian:
This isn't restricted to science reporting, but is the basis for most of what is problematic in the news media. Not only is it much cheaper to regurgitate what the corporate (or Federal) PR folks give you, if you don't (i.e., if you poke around doing investigation, and then point out the inaccuracies in the press releases) you won't be invited to the next press conference, and you won't get the next story at all.
That's how the media have been completely tamed without any need for conspiracy whatsoever. Sad.
scripsit rseuhs:
Heck, when was it exactly that they finally got the 16 bit code out of Windows? Or have they? Does anyone even know? ;)
Please don't bring reasoned arguments into this. Conspiracy is more fun.
Anyway, I kind of like spheres on spheres, too -- what kind of geek wouldn't prefer that to boring old elliptical orbits?
scripsit yomegaman:
Why the hell would I want it to? That's possibly the most obnoxious thing I can imagine. If I copy text from, say, a Web page, to an OpenOffice doc, I want that text to appear in the font face, style, and size of the current context, not what I copied from. Why on earth would I want it to be in the old face/style/size, just so I can waste time fixing it to match the rest of the text in my document?
scripsit mi:
If you're talking about states, then practically no currently existing state existed in 732. The French monarchy existed more than, for example, the German, Italian, or Danish. (I don't recall if the Merovingian monarchs used the title rex francorum or not--WW-Person gives their title in German as ``König im Frankenreich.'') To the extent that you can talk about any nation existing in the eighth century, it is fair to speak of Franks/French.
If that were the only point, then yes, Napoléon would have been a better example (It took all of Europe united to bring him down). However, since the poster to which I was responding decided to invoke the mediaeval Islamic threat to Europe, I thought it appropriate to mention that the person who ended that invasion was Frankish/French.
Oh, look... An Aryan troll... Put away your white hood for a moment and pay attention.
scripsit JonTurner:
I'm amazed at how ignorant of history people can be... Let's see:
Yes, that's right -- by a Frenchman. If it weren't for the cowardly, afraid-to-fight, always-surrendering French, the entirety of Western Europe would have falled to the armies of the Khalifat in the eighth century.
Have you lived under Muslim rule? I have. I lived for three years in an Arab country in which Islam is constitutionally the state religion -- and I happen not to be a Muslim. Were there things that sucked, like it being illegal to buy beer on Mohamed's birthday? Sure. I'd definitely rather live there, though, than in many places in the American South. Whatever impact backward religious restrictions there were restricted me less than those in some counties in Texas would. The problems the Arab world faces with liberty are due to the oppressive military dictatorships which the U.S. has kept in power, not to the people's faith.
I am confident that you will do the rest of us the same honor.
scripsit ShadowDrgn:
Damn! From Arizona State my pings are 45-55ms to most Internet2 EDUs. MIT, interestingly, is one of the worst at 70+ms -- strange because, since it all goes through Abilene, a trip to California is longer than to MIT.
You sure you don't have something special out to FSU? I can't even get to Abilene in less than 20ms.
scripsit Guppy06:
(I've been away from anything resembling planetary science for a while, so please be gentle with me if I'm talking nonsense...)
I was under the impression that there are now thought to be many Kuiper belt objects (KBOs) quite like Pluto and similar to it in size... I suspect (though I don't know where the cutoff is) that at least some of these objects are also held together gravitationally -- which would then make them all planets, as I understand your definition. Would you agree? Or might there be a better way to distinguish planets from KBOs and other ``objects''?
scripsit mikerich:
Nah, we just have to develop shields first.
scripsit dinohum:
Well, thank God someone's keeping a level head!
UT says:
Someone is more than a little bit confused about the nature of digital storage if they think they can `recapture the stolen data'.
`Ah, cool, we've managed to delete the copy they made of our data.'
(whispers)
`Another copy? How many copies did they steal?'
scripsit simong_oz:
Same numbers, very different reviews.
scripsit TFloore:
97.5% of the time, when people cite percentages, I get suspicious.
Seriously, though, I can follow your logic here. I would like to know your source for the 98% figure, though. I'd hate to repeat it and get called out and be unable to back it up ;)
scripsit Anik351:
Care to explain this? What does the competitiveness (or lack thereof) of labour markets have to do with the relationship of labour to the ownership of capital?
(BTW, you might want to tighten up your use of words like `liberal' -- in precise [i.e., non-talk-radio] usage, `liberal' == `free market'; `liberal' != `leftist')
scripsit Joe the Lesser:
Y'know, if the majority of the kids are learning algebra by 8th grade, Maine's not so bad off. In Arizona (where I went to school), only a small fraction (<10%) of the kids did algebra in middle school. It was possible to graduate high school with no algebra at all.
scripsit mark_lybarger:
Around 1900 things were a bit different. That was back when there was a labor movement which was powerful, socialist, and struck fear into the hearts of the capital-owning classes. What concessions there were to workers were made when they couldn't get the National Guard to break a strike; violence was often the preferred response. (Of course, troops were used to break strikes even during the Reagan years in Arizona...)
Don't paint too rosy a picture of capital at that time; there was nothing enlightened about it. "Liked their job more" just wasn't a concern of capital.
scripsit ShadowDrake:
I'm sorry you had such a difficult time of it. I can only relate my own experience with Debian Sarge on a Dell Latitude with an Orinoco card. Here's how it went: With laptop off, pop in wifi card. Boot. I'm on line. If I have booted without the card, doing an 'ifup eth0' is all it takes to bring it up. It's totally transparent to me whether I have the Orinoco or an ethernet card in; both work without any effort save the occasional ifdown eth0 / ifup eth0 when changing from one to the other.
scripsit Rhinobird:
Given the generally unimpressive terrestrial performace of penguins, I have to admit that I find this amusingly ironic.
scripsit wdr1:
I can't speak for elmegil, but I for one do really believe that the Clinton administration is no longer in power.