I agree with you.. Muslim's should respect danish culture, as I do.
However, you missed the point. We weren't talking about westerners understanding and respecting muslim culture. We were talking about why the muslims are reacting the way they are. No one should have to understand and respect rioters who burn down building and kill people. My point was that these people aren't following muslim culture. I was trying to outline the cultural/social/economic factors that contributed to this crazy behaviour. I do not consider this islamic. Infact, islamic culture is different from arabic culture. They are often assumed to be the same.
In fact, my head Mullah has said explicitly on many occasions "Control your anger. When you are angry, you are no longer human. You are out of control and you become an animal. God has made you human, and the very essence of humanity is to be in control and be responsible for what you do. When you become angry, you give up what God has given you. You cease to be human."
I am not making that up. So similar to 'turn the other cheek' isn't it? 99.9% of christians dont turn the other cheek, and 99.9% of muslims do get angry. in other words, no one listens.. no one cares. People have selective amnesia.
Or if there is a better way. I know NASA is all about research and pushing forward the boundaries of science. But I think they are spreading themselves out too thin. Especially if you consider how little money they get.
I have noticed that when I take on too many part time coding projects, I get none of them done right. I have a limit amount of personal coding time (maybe 1 day a week total) and working 1 hour on each of my projects doesn't get me very far on any of them. I do them all half-assed or never even complete them.
This is what I see happening with NASA.
On the other hand, I can get a lot done if I just focus on 2 projects or 3 at the most. Focus all my free coding time and energy on the 2 or 3 that I have time to do. This way I actually do a good job on the few things I do pursue, and I actually finish up on them.
I think this is what gave NASA its early successes. They focused and pushed in specific directions.. that and they had a lot more money back then.
I wonder if NASA would be better to slim down and focus on two or three goals and and drop everything else. Put it on their todo list, but not actually work on it, till higher priority goals are met. They have a severe shortage of resources, and they aren't the most efficient at using them (being a government agency after all), they could slim down and use all their resources to accomplish a smaller set of goals.. but actually ACCOMPLISH them.. not just probe around in different random directions. This scattered approach is not letting them devote enough resources to actually finish anything.. and the projects that do finish, end up taking so long that the public looses interest.
For instance, if NASA took on a task similar to putting a man on the moon. Say.. putting a man on mars.. or putting a base on the moon. Pick one, and dedicate all their research towards it. I think something like this would excite the public more, and perhaps even get more funding. The public isn't as impressed when NASA says "Oh we've been prodding around at these 20 different technologies that may one day be feasible and we could one day use but they are atleast 20 years away from being usable." But if NASA said "we have accomplished 4 of the 25 goals we have set for putting a base on the moon, we are working on 5 more goals and we are hoping to have them done by the end of this year. If everything goes as planned we should have a base on the moon in 10 more years, construction could start as soon as 3 years from now"
Your fears are unfortunately not unfounded. Atleast in my opinion. Having lived in the middle east, I see a lot of hatred of the west. The reasons are too many for me to list. Most of them dont even know why they hate the west.. but most of them will bring up Israel/Palestine at some point if you ask them.
I see a lot of people in the west hate the muslims back. There is a deep divide. I actually talk about this in some of my other posts. If you're interested, read up my other posts on this topic.
I am worried about something other than Iran/Hamas. I am worried there will be another 9/11 like attack and the west will loose that last bit of restraint they have. 9/11 did so much damage to the world beyond the lives it took. All this we are seeing today is a direct consequence of that. Bin Laden is getting EXACTLY what he wants.. he wants a showdown between the east and the west. He wants to see the entire Islamic world united against the west. It has already begun to happen, because though the islamic countries dont get along too well within themselves, if they fear the west.. they will learn to get along. Bin Laden is mistaken in that he believes the muslim world would actually win such a showdown with the west.
I think everyone would loose.
Now Bin laden is a smart bastard. I think he sees this.. and I think he knows that if he can pull off just one more 9/11 style attack.. or bigger.. he'll have pushed the world past the tipping point. There will be too many americans crying for revenge for the government to sit quiet. The muslims countries will unite together to fight what they percieve is a common enemy. all hell will break loose. I pray the dep. of homeland security, annoying as they are... do their job well. There will be another attempt for sure.. if it succeeds, more lives will be at stake than just those who die from the immediate effects of the attack.
Nobody in the muslim world will punish the terrorists or the rioters. I explain why in some of my other posts. Infact, I think the west is caught in a mess in the middle east. Their puppet governments are detested by the people.. at the same time, if those puppet governmetns are toppled, Islamic theocracies will most certainly take their place.
There are so many factors, and issues.. there is so much history, and so many points of view, I could go on and on and on. Which i'm sure would be quite boring to you:)
so in short, I think your fears aren't unfounded. In my opinion you are right to worry, and I'm worried too.
Actually, I was surprised by the sheer interest so many people showed in this thread.
To answer your question.. Those 'high ranking people' are not representative of the entire Islamic community. Soon after the prophets death the Islamic world split into factions. Eventually there major dynasties were established. The Ummayids, the Abbasids and the Fatimids. Each of them claimed to be the caliph (or pope - leader) of the muslim world. Each had his set of followers. Unfortunately, all 3 dynasties eventually disappeared, the last of the Caliphs was killed when Kublai Khan's brother defeated him and invaded baghdad.
Today Islam has no pope. No leader. There are lots of little factions and sects.. each claiming that their leader is the true leader. No matter who speaks on behalf of the muslims on TV.. he cannot speak for everyone. For each high ranking moderate you point to, someone could point out a 'fire brand cleric' who is also a leader of another sect. Perhaps one person could have represented the huge chunk of the muslim population, similar to the catholic pope... but no single person in Islam has that much of a following.
You dont have to cater to anything. Why on earth do I have to deal with psycho's just because the claim to belong to my religion? I have nothing to do with them. I dont even like them.. Kill them all if you wish.. I dont wish to kill,hurt or stop anyone.. I dont see why I and others like me are being responsible for their bad behaviour. We haven't adopted them you know.
A lot of these riots are sparked not just because of the cartoons themselves. There is a deep and brewing hatred between the west and the muslims. I see it and quite frankly it scares the hell out me. You see, just as you often see posts out here on slashdot, kuro5hin or other internet message boards by western internet users showing their rage and frustration with Islam. There are a bunch of people (thousands!) in that part of the world who want to show their frustration and rage at the west. Just as bad behaviour breeds bad behaviour, they are caught in a cycle. If your best friend crashes your car, you'll cuss at him and forget about it. If your grumpy neighbor you already hate crashes your car.. you'll sue his pants off. He'll hate you more for suing him, and might cause you trouble in some other way. You'll hate him even more for being such a dick after crashing your car.. and so on. Hate breeds hate. Western media is caught in this trap too.. they will focus more on the crimes and flaws commited by people who claim to be muslims, they have no reason to cover well behaved muslims. After all.. aren't they expected to behave themselves?
Another problem is political. The clerics and the tyrants in the region support this kind of behaviour. This outcry builds unity against a common enemy and makes people less likely to question their leaders, and their societies. They are less likely to cry out against the conditions in which they live. Maybe even blame the bad bad west for all of their troubles. This effect is not confined to the middle east.. look at President Bush's ratings right after 9/11. Soon as there was a common enemy, the americans united together to support their president. Even before he had reacted in anyway, or done anything. This is especially significant when we consider that the majority of the people didn't even VOTE for him.
this brings me to the third point. "He may be a thug. But he is OUR thug". This is why so many muslims were against the US attacking Saddam Husseins regime. Saddam hussein's government was hated by religious clerics the world over. Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein weren't best buddies like the white house wants you to believe. The neighboring countries hated Iraq and were suspicious of Iraq as well. Hell, Iraq and Iran were locked in a costly war lasting 8 years. yet when America decided to attack and take out saddam hussein, apart from 2 or 3 arab countries.. pretty much all of them were unanimous in their objection. Why? He maybe a vicious dictator.. but he is OUR vicious dictator.
I do believe there has to be a dialogue... and I personally try my best. I do not have the time or the energy to even reply to all the posts I've had to this single post. I've pretty much used my entire sunday on this thread... Unless I abandon my career, I cannot do much more. It isn't a notion that hasn't crossed my mind btw.
Unless you are implying that Black people are trash and would be expected to behave like trash I dont see your point. They were offended and reacted in a non trashy way. Good for them.
This brown trash is numerous not just in the middle east. Read up on the Gujarat riots. Over 2000 muslims were killed by rioting hindus in india, after the government told them that a train car full of hindu pilgrims was set alight by muslims. It was later found that the fire had started from inside the train car not outside and was probabyl caused by an electrical fault. The government in charge was condemned by dozens of countries all over the world, condemmed it because there was evidence that lists containing the addresses of muslims were handed out to the mobs. The chief minister stated "I dont blame the hindu mobs for acting the way they did. And I dont blame the police for not intervening.".. By the way, no politician was punished for it. Mr Narendra Modi who is still a politician in India was recently denied entry into the US because the US government because he had help commit crimes against humanity.
Bet you had not heard about it.
This isn't an attack on the Indian government or on Hindus. I'm just pointing out that trash is trash, you just have a very large and very vocal group of morons who live in the middle east.
The reasons for this are debatable.. there are several and I wont claim to know all of them. Poverty, brainwashing, and poor education all play a part.
Having said that, I still maintain that in the vast majority of the cases poverty is indeed the trigger. There are exceptions where fanaticism trumps wealth.
You will NEVER see a person come out of his 4 bedroom house, walk past his 2 Mercedes and BMW cars, out of his gated community to go riot, throw stones and chant 'death to the evil infidels' in any language. culture. country or society. It does not happen.
Because it is the same bunch of people rioting who are supporting that massive stupidity of suicide bombings.
Those that dont riot over the cartoons, are the same ones who dont riot over anything. They are the people just trying to get a job, buy a car, a home, go for a vacation, get a bigger tv. etc.
That too is a cultural problem. I dont know who is going to step in and stop it.. but its certainly not going to be ME! And that is exactly how everyone there thinks.
Since I was a child, I was taught.. and all the kids around me were taught "dont get involved in other people's messy business." , "Its somebody else's problem" "stay away from trouble.. and those people are trouble".
That would explain the great deal of corruption, human rights abuses and tyrannical governments in that region of the world too. No one is willing to take it upon him/herself to take on the corrupt, the tyrannts, the fanatics and the other idiots. They just put up with it.. or leave. In my case.. I left.
American culture is different. They can and will intervene when there is a problem. A lot of todays americans are descended from people fleeing religious and cultural persecution. They were taught differently by their parents, as my children will be taught differently by me. We fleed once, and are in a land that will treat us well.. "make sure we dont loose what we have gained through so much hardship. It is your duty to intervene, and take it upon yourself to fight the corrupt, the tyrants and the fanatics from taking over".
So in summary, you guys might as well do it.. because you'll grow old waiting before anyone in that region of the world rises up to fight them.
Well.. I dont think muslims have a problem with all cartoons. Just cartoons that make fun of religious figures they respect.
This is off topic.. but... I'm hoping some people will read this and help them 'understand' the behavious of those rioters.
I know you were just joking around, (or maybe the right word is 'think') but to me (a muslim) the cartoons of prophet mohammad were mildly amusing. Especially the one that said "STOP! we have run out of virgins!". But I see the reaction by other muslims to be more cultural than religious.
Its hard for a westerner to understand. But think of a religious figure such as a prophet as a father figure. In the west, its okay to say things like "I hate my father." or "My father is a S#%^@#"... In the east, this is just not culturally acceptable. In the west, its okay to make fun of Jesus. Here is one I heard while living here in the west - "Q: Never ask yourself What would jesus do? Answer: Coz He'd Get crucified and DIE!" I am willing to bet that any practicing christian who reads this might be amused, but would more likely find it unfunny. Some would find it offensive. This is in a culture that is quite tolerant about making fun of people who are in a position of respect.
Now, if me.. a brown muslim guy, were to go the the American heartland and crack similar jokes at peter's expense. I would eventually run into a christian red neck would think I deserve a punch.
Think of those rioting muslims, as the lowest level of muslims. They are the brown trash. They are the economically poor, religiously fanatic, aggressive, cocky mob. They are being constantly told that the west is targetting muslims, and then they are seeing jokes made about a person they respect. What do they do? They riot. Bloody idiots.
The majority of muslims over the world, simply frowned at the prophet being made fun off. Very much as they would frown if you insulted or made fun of their parents. It is a cultural thing.
Some like me, realized that the west didn't mean to offend me, and we take it in our stride, giggle, smile and point out 'hey buddy.. that was a bit insensitive"
Another thing I want to point out.. that the word "Muslim" is about as descriptive as "Christian". There are as many kinds of muslim as there are kinds of christian. Baptist, Born Again, protestant, presbeterian, orthodox, catholic, etc. There are many differences between each of them.. Most of the terrorism, and a lot of the rioting is being caused by a particularly extremist sect that is deeply entrenched in Saudia Arabia, and was the backbone of the Taliban. Wahabism. It was founded by an Islamic scholar Abdul Wahab. I am not a wahabi.:)
I agree with you. In my humble opinion, I believe this is because of the nature of our society. It is a big land grab. - If you dont chop that forest down, the price for wood will go up, and then I'll chop my forest down and make all the money. - If you dont have kids, then I will have more kids than you, and my genes will propagate more successfully than yours, and maybe in a few hundred thousand years your genes will disappear and be replaced by mine. Therefore, killing you off and keeping me alive through my genes. - If I can afford to drive a Hummer, who are you to judge and decide that I cannot? If I can afford to pay $5 a gallon for gasoline. I will! It is my money, and my decision.
I could go on forever.
I can remember where I read this, but the humans were compared to a bunch of rats. (Not as an insult to humans, or to the rats!;P ) The idea is that the human population will keep expanding to fill the excess food production. If there are no famines, our population will continue to grow until there are. Just like the rats. There more of us there are, the larger our effect on the enviornment because even if we all have a small ecological footprint.. it will be a LOT of little foot prints.:)
1) The fact that we need to do something now to save the world before its too late!
To them I say.. its useless. Your puny little voices will not be heard. The only way to stop global warming were for the people of the world to collectively reduce their usage of energy and lower their standard of living. Its not happening. It simply is not going to happen.
2) The fact that it cannot be proven that it is human's causing this global warming, and that we know very little about the climate and have been measuring it for a very very short time.
To them I say.. Sure. Fine. But just remember that our great and global civilization wont be the first to have underestimated their effect on nature. History has shown that civilizations CAN affect the environment around them to the point that their civilization becomes unsustainable. Look up the end of the Mayan civilization. Actually even the Easter Islands belong to this category.
Bottom line. I dont think we are hurtling toward the point of no-return.. I believe we are PAST the point of no return.. at this point we might as well just try to find ourselves another planet, or work on technologies that make sure our civilization can survive the future.
Oh.. dont get me wrong. I was discussing the good points of dubai.. not the bad points. The reason I'm in the US instead of Dubai is precisely because of the way they treated me.:)
The reason they are so worker hostile is because the country is saturated with hordes of cheap workers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Phillipines and Sri Lanka. Dubai's citizen work force does not have to compete with these hordes since they get white collar jobs. As a result, these cheap low-skill workers are given temporary entry into the country to work. Infact, many of these low-skill workers are known to have paid as much as $1500 for the opportunity to come to dubai and work in those labor camps that you describe.
The white collar workers in dubai do not live in such a way. Having said that, the UAE offers no citizenship to its expatriate workers. As a result, the highly skilled expatriates in that country are leaving it for the west in droves
Sheikh Rashid.. (The current Kings grand father) was known to have once stood up for the Hindus, who have a temple in a region of the city called Bur Dubai. The residents living near the temple started complaining about the sound of the bells from the temple and asked the king to have it moved or demolished.
The King, shook his head and said "If the bells bother you so much, you are free to move elsewhere".
This is especially significant because, Hinduism, unlike christianity is Idol worship. And Islam is strongly against Idol worship...
I dont think there is another hindu temple anywhere else in the Middle east. There is a strong fundamentalist movement in dubai as well, but there is a deep multicultural base to the city, and moderation is strongly enforced. While going to school there, I had friends who were Muslims, christians, hindus, and sikhs as class mates and friends. No one was targetted for their religion in anyway and it wasn't even considered an issue. There were students of many nationalities.. Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Arabs, Iranians, Britons, Lebanese, Egyptians, Chinese, Filipino, Sudanese, Tanzanian, Sri Lankan .
In fact, I think Dubai has a greater cultural and religious mix than the US. The native Arabs make up only a fraction of the population.
Oh yes. Dubai has a dark side.. Its a bit like the wild wild west. The rich make crazy amounts of money, the poor get exploited, and people flock there to try their luck and strike it rich. Dubai doesn't just have a human trafficking problem alone, it has a lot of gang/crime related problems. the funny thing about dubai is, its pretty damn safe. You can leave your front door unlocked, your car running while you run into the grocery store, and walk along at 3 am in the night. The individual minding his own business has to deal with nearly zero crime. In my 19 years in that country, I haven't had a single crime attempted against me.
At the same time, there is a lot of gang related crime there. My shop was robbed... twice.. by sophisticated russian gangs (thats what the cops thought) that the police was too inept and poorly trained to even attempt to track down. A lot of gang members from Pakistan, and India are known to operate from their base in Dubai. Lots of money laundering, drug trafficking, human trafficking, smuggling, prostitution goes on here.. and the gangs make lots of money.
The thing to note about this country, is its really who you know. If you know the king of Dubai well enough.. you can literally getaway with murder. That is the dark side of the country... but you know what?
All of the above happens all the time in the US too. AND there is crime against the individual with muggings, robberies, drive by shootings. etc.
On the whole, dont knock Dubai.. America probably has a higher smuggling/rape/muder rate than Dubai does.:)
I was brought up there in fact. I'm currently in california, but you're right. Dubai is a pretty interesting place right now..a lot of people are making a lot of money. Its a lot more like Hong kong in my opinion than New York though. Atleast its more descriptive of how Dubai makes its money.
Slashdot Mirror
That should be "could HAVE" not "could of"
:)
Even grammar nazis make mistakes.
What about Death Track.
I remember playing this bad boy on my 8086 and loading it using 3 5 1/5" floppies.
Then I upgraded to a 486 and the game was no longer playable since everythign would happen too fast. lol
I agree with you.. Muslim's should respect danish culture, as I do.
However, you missed the point. We weren't talking about westerners understanding and respecting muslim culture. We were talking about why the muslims are reacting the way they are. No one should have to understand and respect rioters who burn down building and kill people. My point was that these people aren't following muslim culture. I was trying to outline the cultural/social/economic factors that contributed to this crazy behaviour. I do not consider this islamic. Infact, islamic culture is different from arabic culture. They are often assumed to be the same.
In fact, my head Mullah has said explicitly on many occasions "Control your anger. When you are angry, you are no longer human. You are out of control and you become an animal. God has made you human, and the very essence of humanity is to be in control and be responsible for what you do. When you become angry, you give up what God has given you. You cease to be human."
I am not making that up. So similar to 'turn the other cheek' isn't it? 99.9% of christians dont turn the other cheek, and 99.9% of muslims do get angry. in other words, no one listens.. no one cares. People have selective amnesia.
Or if there is a better way. I know NASA is all about research and pushing forward the boundaries of science. But I think they are spreading themselves out too thin. Especially if you consider how little money they get.
I have noticed that when I take on too many part time coding projects, I get none of them done right. I have a limit amount of personal coding time (maybe 1 day a week total) and working 1 hour on each of my projects doesn't get me very far on any of them. I do them all half-assed or never even complete them.
This is what I see happening with NASA.
On the other hand, I can get a lot done if I just focus on 2 projects or 3 at the most. Focus all my free coding time and energy on the 2 or 3 that I have time to do. This way I actually do a good job on the few things I do pursue, and I actually finish up on them.
I think this is what gave NASA its early successes. They focused and pushed in specific directions.. that and they had a lot more money back then.
I wonder if NASA would be better to slim down and focus on two or three goals and and drop everything else. Put it on their todo list, but not actually work on it, till higher priority goals are met. They have a severe shortage of resources, and they aren't the most efficient at using them (being a government agency after all), they could slim down and use all their resources to accomplish a smaller set of goals.. but actually ACCOMPLISH them.. not just probe around in different random directions. This scattered approach is not letting them devote enough resources to actually finish anything.. and the projects that do finish, end up taking so long that the public looses interest.
For instance, if NASA took on a task similar to putting a man on the moon. Say.. putting a man on mars.. or putting a base on the moon. Pick one, and dedicate all their research towards it. I think something like this would excite the public more, and perhaps even get more funding. The public isn't as impressed when NASA says "Oh we've been prodding around at these 20 different technologies that may one day be feasible and we could one day use but they are atleast 20 years away from being usable." But if NASA said "we have accomplished 4 of the 25 goals we have set for putting a base on the moon, we are working on 5 more goals and we are hoping to have them done by the end of this year. If everything goes as planned we should have a base on the moon in 10 more years, construction could start as soon as 3 years from now"
Now THAT sounds exciting!
Your fears are unfortunately not unfounded. Atleast in my opinion. Having lived in the middle east, I see a lot of hatred of the west. The reasons are too many for me to list. Most of them dont even know why they hate the west.. but most of them will bring up Israel/Palestine at some point if you ask them.
:)
I see a lot of people in the west hate the muslims back. There is a deep divide. I actually talk about this in some of my other posts. If you're interested, read up my other posts on this topic.
I am worried about something other than Iran/Hamas. I am worried there will be another 9/11 like attack and the west will loose that last bit of restraint they have. 9/11 did so much damage to the world beyond the lives it took. All this we are seeing today is a direct consequence of that. Bin Laden is getting EXACTLY what he wants.. he wants a showdown between the east and the west. He wants to see the entire Islamic world united against the west. It has already begun to happen, because though the islamic countries dont get along too well within themselves, if they fear the west.. they will learn to get along. Bin Laden is mistaken in that he believes the muslim world would actually win such a showdown with the west.
I think everyone would loose.
Now Bin laden is a smart bastard. I think he sees this.. and I think he knows that if he can pull off just one more 9/11 style attack.. or bigger.. he'll have pushed the world past the tipping point. There will be too many americans crying for revenge for the government to sit quiet. The muslims countries will unite together to fight what they percieve is a common enemy. all hell will break loose. I pray the dep. of homeland security, annoying as they are... do their job well. There will be another attempt for sure.. if it succeeds, more lives will be at stake than just those who die from the immediate effects of the attack.
Nobody in the muslim world will punish the terrorists or the rioters. I explain why in some of my other posts. Infact, I think the west is caught in a mess in the middle east. Their puppet governments are detested by the people.. at the same time, if those puppet governmetns are toppled, Islamic theocracies will most certainly take their place.
There are so many factors, and issues.. there is so much history, and so many points of view, I could go on and on and on. Which i'm sure would be quite boring to you
so in short, I think your fears aren't unfounded. In my opinion you are right to worry, and I'm worried too.
Thanks. I appreciate your support. :)
:)
Actually, I was surprised by the sheer interest so many people showed in this thread.
To answer your question.. Those 'high ranking people' are not representative of the entire Islamic community. Soon after the prophets death the Islamic world split into factions. Eventually there major dynasties were established. The Ummayids, the Abbasids and the Fatimids. Each of them claimed to be the caliph (or pope - leader) of the muslim world. Each had his set of followers. Unfortunately, all 3 dynasties eventually disappeared, the last of the Caliphs was killed when Kublai Khan's brother defeated him and invaded baghdad.
Today Islam has no pope. No leader. There are lots of little factions and sects.. each claiming that their leader is the true leader. No matter who speaks on behalf of the muslims on TV.. he cannot speak for everyone. For each high ranking moderate you point to, someone could point out a 'fire brand cleric' who is also a leader of another sect. Perhaps one person could have represented the huge chunk of the muslim population, similar to the catholic pope... but no single person in Islam has that much of a following.
I think that pretty much answers your question.
You dont have to cater to anything. Why on earth do I have to deal with psycho's just because the claim to belong to my religion? I have nothing to do with them. I dont even like them.. Kill them all if you wish.. I dont wish to kill,hurt or stop anyone.. I dont see why I and others like me are being responsible for their bad behaviour. We haven't adopted them you know.
A lot of these riots are sparked not just because of the cartoons themselves. There is a deep and brewing hatred between the west and the muslims. I see it and quite frankly it scares the hell out me. You see, just as you often see posts out here on slashdot, kuro5hin or other internet message boards by western internet users showing their rage and frustration with Islam. There are a bunch of people (thousands!) in that part of the world who want to show their frustration and rage at the west. Just as bad behaviour breeds bad behaviour, they are caught in a cycle. If your best friend crashes your car, you'll cuss at him and forget about it. If your grumpy neighbor you already hate crashes your car.. you'll sue his pants off. He'll hate you more for suing him, and might cause you trouble in some other way. You'll hate him even more for being such a dick after crashing your car.. and so on. Hate breeds hate. Western media is caught in this trap too.. they will focus more on the crimes and flaws commited by people who claim to be muslims, they have no reason to cover well behaved muslims. After all.. aren't they expected to behave themselves?
Another problem is political. The clerics and the tyrants in the region support this kind of behaviour. This outcry builds unity against a common enemy and makes people less likely to question their leaders, and their societies. They are less likely to cry out against the conditions in which they live. Maybe even blame the bad bad west for all of their troubles. This effect is not confined to the middle east.. look at President Bush's ratings right after 9/11. Soon as there was a common enemy, the americans united together to support their president. Even before he had reacted in anyway, or done anything. This is especially significant when we consider that the majority of the people didn't even VOTE for him.
this brings me to the third point. "He may be a thug. But he is OUR thug". This is why so many muslims were against the US attacking Saddam Husseins regime. Saddam hussein's government was hated by religious clerics the world over. Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein weren't best buddies like the white house wants you to believe. The neighboring countries hated Iraq and were suspicious of Iraq as well. Hell, Iraq and Iran were locked in a costly war lasting 8 years. yet when America decided to attack and take out saddam hussein, apart from 2 or 3 arab countries.. pretty much all of them were unanimous in their objection. Why? He maybe a vicious dictator.. but he is OUR vicious dictator.
I do believe there has to be a dialogue... and I personally try my best. I do not have the time or the energy to even reply to all the posts I've had to this single post. I've pretty much used my entire sunday on this thread... Unless I abandon my career, I cannot do much more. It isn't a notion that hasn't crossed my mind btw.
Unless you are implying that Black people are trash and would be expected to behave like trash I dont see your point. They were offended and reacted in a non trashy way. Good for them.
.. By the way, no politician was punished for it. Mr Narendra Modi who is still a politician in India was recently denied entry into the US because the US government because he had help commit crimes against humanity.
This brown trash is numerous not just in the middle east. Read up on the Gujarat riots. Over 2000 muslims were killed by rioting hindus in india, after the government told them that a train car full of hindu pilgrims was set alight by muslims. It was later found that the fire had started from inside the train car not outside and was probabyl caused by an electrical fault. The government in charge was condemned by dozens of countries all over the world, condemmed it because there was evidence that lists containing the addresses of muslims were handed out to the mobs. The chief minister stated "I dont blame the hindu mobs for acting the way they did. And I dont blame the police for not intervening."
Bet you had not heard about it.
This isn't an attack on the Indian government or on Hindus. I'm just pointing out that trash is trash, you just have a very large and very vocal group of morons who live in the middle east.
The reasons for this are debatable.. there are several and I wont claim to know all of them. Poverty, brainwashing, and poor education all play a part.
I stand corrected.
Having said that, I still maintain that in the vast majority of the cases poverty is indeed the trigger. There are exceptions where fanaticism trumps wealth.
Poverty is the trigger. Not the cause.
You will NEVER see a person come out of his 4 bedroom house, walk past his 2 Mercedes and BMW cars, out of his gated community to go riot, throw stones and chant 'death to the evil infidels' in any language. culture. country or society. It does not happen.
I agree. That is by far whe most common thing I have to explain to my western friends. Read my reply to the parent of your post.
Because it is the same bunch of people rioting who are supporting that massive stupidity of suicide bombings.
Those that dont riot over the cartoons, are the same ones who dont riot over anything. They are the people just trying to get a job, buy a car, a home, go for a vacation, get a bigger tv. etc.
lol...
That too is a cultural problem. I dont know who is going to step in and stop it.. but its certainly not going to be ME! And that is exactly how everyone there thinks.
Since I was a child, I was taught.. and all the kids around me were taught "dont get involved in other people's messy business." , "Its somebody else's problem" "stay away from trouble.. and those people are trouble".
That would explain the great deal of corruption, human rights abuses and tyrannical governments in that region of the world too. No one is willing to take it upon him/herself to take on the corrupt, the tyrannts, the fanatics and the other idiots. They just put up with it.. or leave. In my case.. I left.
American culture is different. They can and will intervene when there is a problem. A lot of todays americans are descended from people fleeing religious and cultural persecution. They were taught differently by their parents, as my children will be taught differently by me. We fleed once, and are in a land that will treat us well.. "make sure we dont loose what we have gained through so much hardship. It is your duty to intervene, and take it upon yourself to fight the corrupt, the tyrants and the fanatics from taking over".
So in summary, you guys might as well do it.. because you'll grow old waiting before anyone in that region of the world rises up to fight them.
Well .. I dont think muslims have a problem with all cartoons. Just cartoons that make fun of religious figures they respect.
... In the east, this is just not culturally acceptable.
:)
This is off topic.. but... I'm hoping some people will read this and help them 'understand' the behavious of those rioters.
I know you were just joking around, (or maybe the right word is 'think') but to me (a muslim) the cartoons of prophet mohammad were mildly amusing. Especially the one that said "STOP! we have run out of virgins!". But I see the reaction by other muslims to be more cultural than religious.
Its hard for a westerner to understand. But think of a religious figure such as a prophet as a father figure.
In the west, its okay to say things like "I hate my father." or "My father is a S#%^@#"
In the west, its okay to make fun of Jesus. Here is one I heard while living here in the west - "Q: Never ask yourself What would jesus do? Answer: Coz He'd Get crucified and DIE!" I am willing to bet that any practicing christian who reads this might be amused, but would more likely find it unfunny. Some would find it offensive. This is in a culture that is quite tolerant about making fun of people who are in a position of respect.
Now, if me.. a brown muslim guy, were to go the the American heartland and crack similar jokes at peter's expense. I would eventually run into a christian red neck would think I deserve a punch.
Think of those rioting muslims, as the lowest level of muslims. They are the brown trash. They are the economically poor, religiously fanatic, aggressive, cocky mob. They are being constantly told that the west is targetting muslims, and then they are seeing jokes made about a person they respect. What do they do? They riot. Bloody idiots.
The majority of muslims over the world, simply frowned at the prophet being made fun off. Very much as they would frown if you insulted or made fun of their parents. It is a cultural thing.
Some like me, realized that the west didn't mean to offend me, and we take it in our stride, giggle, smile and point out 'hey buddy.. that was a bit insensitive"
Another thing I want to point out.. that the word "Muslim" is about as descriptive as "Christian". There are as many kinds of muslim as there are kinds of christian. Baptist, Born Again, protestant, presbeterian, orthodox, catholic, etc. There are many differences between each of them.. Most of the terrorism, and a lot of the rioting is being caused by a particularly extremist sect that is deeply entrenched in Saudia Arabia, and was the backbone of the Taliban. Wahabism. It was founded by an Islamic scholar Abdul Wahab. I am not a wahabi.
I think that it is double plus good!
I agree with you. In my humble opinion, I believe this is because of the nature of our society. It is a big land grab.
;P ) The idea is that the human population will keep expanding to fill the excess food production. If there are no famines, our population will continue to grow until there are. Just like the rats. There more of us there are, the larger our effect on the enviornment because even if we all have a small ecological footprint.. it will be a LOT of little foot prints. :)
- If you dont chop that forest down, the price for wood will go up, and then I'll chop my forest down and make all the money.
- If you dont have kids, then I will have more kids than you, and my genes will propagate more successfully than yours, and maybe in a few hundred thousand years your genes will disappear and be replaced by mine. Therefore, killing you off and keeping me alive through my genes.
- If I can afford to drive a Hummer, who are you to judge and decide that I cannot? If I can afford to pay $5 a gallon for gasoline. I will! It is my money, and my decision.
I could go on forever.
I can remember where I read this, but the humans were compared to a bunch of rats. (Not as an insult to humans, or to the rats!
Recently it has been postulated that the massive drought that caused their civilization to crumble, was caused by large scale deforestation
1) The fact that we need to do something now to save the world before its too late!
To them I say.. its useless. Your puny little voices will not be heard. The only way to stop global warming were for the people of the world to collectively reduce their usage of energy and lower their standard of living. Its not happening. It simply is not going to happen.
2) The fact that it cannot be proven that it is human's causing this global warming, and that we know very little about the climate and have been measuring it for a very very short time.
To them I say.. Sure. Fine. But just remember that our great and global civilization wont be the first to have underestimated their effect on nature. History has shown that civilizations CAN affect the environment around them to the point that their civilization becomes unsustainable. Look up the end of the Mayan civilization. Actually even the Easter Islands belong to this category.
Bottom line. I dont think we are hurtling toward the point of no-return.. I believe we are PAST the point of no return.. at this point we might as well just try to find ourselves another planet, or work on technologies that make sure our civilization can survive the future.
Oh.. dont get me wrong. I was discussing the good points of dubai.. not the bad points. The reason I'm in the US instead of Dubai is precisely because of the way they treated me. :)
The reason they are so worker hostile is because the country is saturated with hordes of cheap workers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Phillipines and Sri Lanka. Dubai's citizen work force does not have to compete with these hordes since they get white collar jobs. As a result, these cheap low-skill workers are given temporary entry into the country to work. Infact, many of these low-skill workers are known to have paid as much as $1500 for the opportunity to come to dubai and work in those labor camps that you describe.
The white collar workers in dubai do not live in such a way. Having said that, the UAE offers no citizenship to its expatriate workers. As a result, the highly skilled expatriates in that country are leaving it for the west in droves
Dubai isn't a quiet part of the world by ANY standard.
True.
.. (The current Kings grand father) was known to have once stood up for the Hindus, who have a temple in a region of the city called Bur Dubai. The residents living near the temple started complaining about the sound of the bells from the temple and asked the king to have it moved or demolished.
Sheikh Rashid
The King, shook his head and said "If the bells bother you so much, you are free to move elsewhere".
This is especially significant because, Hinduism, unlike christianity is Idol worship. And Islam is strongly against Idol worship...
I dont think there is another hindu temple anywhere else in the Middle east. There is a strong fundamentalist movement in dubai as well, but there is a deep multicultural base to the city, and moderation is strongly enforced. While going to school there, I had friends who were Muslims, christians, hindus, and sikhs as class mates and friends. No one was targetted for their religion in anyway and it wasn't even considered an issue. There were students of many nationalities.. Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Arabs, Iranians, Britons, Lebanese, Egyptians, Chinese, Filipino, Sudanese, Tanzanian, Sri Lankan .
In fact, I think Dubai has a greater cultural and religious mix than the US. The native Arabs make up only a fraction of the population.
Oh yes. Dubai has a dark side.. Its a bit like the wild wild west. The rich make crazy amounts of money, the poor get exploited, and people flock there to try their luck and strike it rich. Dubai doesn't just have a human trafficking problem alone, it has a lot of gang/crime related problems. the funny thing about dubai is, its pretty damn safe. You can leave your front door unlocked, your car running while you run into the grocery store, and walk along at 3 am in the night. The individual minding his own business has to deal with nearly zero crime. In my 19 years in that country, I haven't had a single crime attempted against me.
:)
At the same time, there is a lot of gang related crime there. My shop was robbed... twice.. by sophisticated russian gangs (thats what the cops thought) that the police was too inept and poorly trained to even attempt to track down. A lot of gang members from Pakistan, and India are known to operate from their base in Dubai. Lots of money laundering, drug trafficking, human trafficking, smuggling, prostitution goes on here.. and the gangs make lots of money.
The thing to note about this country, is its really who you know. If you know the king of Dubai well enough.. you can literally getaway with murder. That is the dark side of the country... but you know what?
All of the above happens all the time in the US too. AND there is crime against the individual with muggings, robberies, drive by shootings. etc.
On the whole, dont knock Dubai.. America probably has a higher smuggling/rape/muder rate than Dubai does.
I was brought up there in fact. I'm currently in california, but you're right. Dubai is a pretty interesting place right now. .a lot of people are making a lot of money. Its a lot more like Hong kong in my opinion than New York though. Atleast its more descriptive of how Dubai makes its money.