Intel has already publically stated that the Willy will not be released at this speed, but no word of what speed it will actually be available at. Release is 2nd half of 2000. IMHO, that means you won't be able to buy one until this time next year.
The core of the processor is pretty much new, so I don't know that the problems with the P3 will carry over or not. Probably will just have its own, all-new set of "errata".:)
Intel is really screwing with people on this one. They have lost their raw MHz & performance leads to AMD. To cover this fact up, they are:
1. Playing games with processor speed. "Your processor runs at 1GHz...well ours runs at 3GHz!" Of course this is only one small portion of the chip. Also forgetting to mention the numerous trade-offs they had to make, like 20 stage pipelines that will take huge hits on missed branch predictions.
2. I am sure in certain circumstances the Willy will blow the doors off the Athlon, but these most likely will be with some synthetic, hand-tuned benchmarks. The PR group will latch onto to these as proof that your Internet browsing experience will be so much better.
3. FP performance is going out the door, they are not trying to improve it anymore. For example, the 'FXCH' instruction which is commonly used in FP code is now taking a big performance hit. Intel is betting the farm on SSE, hoping they can get software developers on their side and ignoring the existing software base out there (forget good Quake framerates with this chip).
Copper interconnects reduce power consumption and allow higher frequencies. Intel is probably wanting to hold off on using copper for the initial production run while they work out any other issues with the chip, especially since the Willy pushes into some new territory technology-wise (whether for better or worse). With their recent track record of "errata", I am sure they will want to keep any potential problem sources to a minimum as long as they can keep performance competitive.
As for the bus, 400MHz sounds pretty impressive, but until memory technology catches up, that extra bandwidth will remain wasted (at least on single processor systems).
1. It is reported that the execution units have a 20-stage pipeline. So stalls will hurt big-time unless Intel has something new up its sleeves (which I really doubt). They'll probably let loose plenty of PR using benchmarks with some very carefully hand-tuned code that shows this chip just blows AMD out of the water, but will mean little for most things.
2. The FPU is running at half the speed of the ALU. So FP performance will not be up to par for scientific applications (or games) as compared to an AMD processor running both at the same speed. Athlon's FPU is already known to blow PIII's out of the water.
3. This processor won't be released until the end of the year, which the way things have been working means they won't be available until next year. By then, Athlon will have large on-die cache, increased bus speed and possibly SMP systems (fingers crossed).
I have been thinking about the reasons why IBM might be doing this, and came up 2 possibilities:
1. To compete with Sun's E10K's. Sun has been encroaching on the mainframe realm with these systems. E10K's support up to 64 processors, terabytes of storage and logical partitioning of hardware resources. I don't believe (you can correct me if I am wrong) that IBM has any AIX based systems on par with what Sun offers. It would allow someone a relatively easy upgrade path (at least from a systems/software view) from their AIX systems.
2. Caving in to all the Linux hype...hey it's good PR.
On a related note...
I am not totally familiar with the inner workings of X, but if a S/390 supports TCP/IP wouldn't there be the possibility of using one of these system as an application server server to graphic terminals? Much of the use of character-mode mainframe applications is software related (CICS) and not so much the limitations of the hardware and I/O.
KryoTech has announced/released their 1GHz system which uses the 750MHz (0.18 process).
It should be fairly easy to get this processor up to 850MHz with the usual OC tricks. The stock cache runs at 1/2.5 of CPU (1/2.5*750=300MHz) which might need to be set down to 1/3 to get it running.
Should see some additional improvements once they add the copper process (which is probably what will be needed to reach 1GHz with normal cooling).
Also, didn't see this mentioned elsewhere, but AMD did demo a 900MHz air-cooled (i.e. heat sink/fan combo) Athlon at Comdex. This means their availability can't be far off!
Yes...it's not that hardware costs that are so prohibitive...it's the service and software contracts are. While mainframe harware is modern, not all software and service contracts are.
Many companies believe they can still sell their their software for an outragious price. So much so, it would make an open source advocate to keel over in his tracks.
I work in one of the indutries that you mention, and things like this fuel fantasies of overturning the Microsoft bought-out world where I work and installing Linux. Those people on production support, network admins, etc. would love me!
There is this assummption that mainframes are ancient technology and are just dinosaurs waiting to die. I work for a company that is a large mainframe shop, and after checking out one of our 4 data centers, I was quite impressed with the technology involved in a modern mainframe system.
We have several processing boxes which are linked by fiber optics. They provide many different logical partitions (i.e. systems) which are dynamically allocated across the available CPU's. Kind of a cross between redundancy clusters and Beowolf clusters with dedicated I/O processors to handle the I/O requests of several hundred users.
While these systems might not beat out the raw horsepower of modern CPU's, the supporting communication and I/O bandwith cannot be beat.
Now let's have Mindcraft have a benchmark against a mainframe running Linux and the best NT system (I know...it's an oxymoron) out there, and let see what results they get...
Sony is desperate (maybe too strong a word?) to find someone who will license its Memory Stick technology. I believe this is the first use of it outside Sony itself.
I won't argue about its relative merits when compared to Compact Flash (due to my own ignorance), but this too might go the way of Beta if they don't get some more companies on-board.
China is a country known for infringement of various copyright violations (music CD's, software). So, they think it is a good idea to support an OS that promotes free distribution. It's better than backing Windows and then getting busted for illegal copies.
Many hard drives are already loaded with Windows...something to do with the verification software the HD manufacturers use. An old argument about selling systems without Windows is that it would cost more to install Linux (or any other OS), rather than just plugging in a HD with Win already installed.
I think that if a HD came with Linux installed will have a bigger impact than just shipping a CD with a motherboard. For example, you can get a copy of AOL or Compuserve with almost any computer item you buy, but that doesn't mean we are all using them as our ISP.
Also, I would hate to see a Linux CD be elavated to the drink coaster status like AOL CD's.
AMD is currently going for the high-end to help bump up their ASP (average selling price). ASP is a good indicator of a chip companies' profitability, and the Athlon will definitely help them (I think pre-Athlon ASP was somewhere below $70ish).
Athlon was designed for speed, not economy of power and heat. Their K6-2/3 have been gaining them market share in the notebook arena this past year, and that design (while not the screamer Athlon is) is much more suitable to notebook requirements. I wouldn't expect to see an Athlon portable until they start putting the L2 cache on-die.
If Transmeta is creating the next big thing in processors, I am almost positive they will have someone else manufacturing them. It is not uncommon for semiconductor companies to be fabless, and I am sure we would have heard it if Transmeta was purchasing/building a fab.
Intel can afford to cut the prices on their chips because of the huge markups on the Xeon line of processors. Yes, the PIII's might end up cheaper than a K7 (oops...Athlon), but performance-wise the AMD is comparing more to a Xeon. And based on this, it is still a much better deal.
The 200 MHz bus speed is the bus going to/from the processor(s) to the MMU, PCI bus, etc. The memory will still operate at 100/133 MHz for the first systems.
This 200 MHz bus will be really shine in SMP. It utilizes a point-to-point design that is more scalable than Intel's SMP design which uses one bus (at 100 MHz on current systems) with dedicated lines for each processor.
AMD claims that the K7 will be released initially at 500, 550 and 600 MHz. There have been reports that they will be able to reach 700 MHz on the current 0.25 process, and at least 1 GHz on the newer 0.18 process which they are adopting later this year. They plan to keep about 50 MHz faster than the top-of-the-line Intel offerings.
If these spec results are to be believed, this could be a definite Xeon killer once SMP systems are available. Gee...a processor that outperforms a Xeon, for oh about a tenth of the price. Hard decision there...
Being someone who is confined to a wheelchair, I am curious as to where the camera is located. I assume that they are positioned for a standing person of average height, which would be impossible for me to get to.
I hope that they are providing an alternate way of identifing yourself. Like the old-fashioned ATM card with a PIN.
Yes, I am in a wheelchair and a geek too! While I do not need any special software/hardware to do my job/hobby, I have been good friends with many visually impared people who have had a great deal of difficulty in the modern GUI age, many of which still depend on DOS & WP5.1. I have heard quite a few complaints about M$'s support of adaptive equipment and use of non-standard key-sequences in its software. This of course goes against all of the PR we see/hear (not that this is anything new to/. users).
I think this would be a great area that Linux could excel in. And when it comes to web pages like mentioned before, can be a help for those Lynx users out there as well.
And just a personal note about the 'uhhhmmmm, uh, differently abled programmers', I am just one person, but I don't buy into all this PC BS. I could care less that the world's best graphics program is called the GIMP.
This is correct. The workstation m-boards only support 2 Xeon's, but do throw in an AGP slot. The server allows four, more memory capacity (8 SIMMS or something like that), and no AGP.
I think 4 processors would be overkill in anything but a server situation, and then only if you doing database stuff. Or generating Slashdot pages on the fly for the masses...
Slashdot Mirror
Intel has already publically stated that the Willy will not be released at this speed, but no word of what speed it will actually be available at. Release is 2nd half of 2000. IMHO, that means you won't be able to buy one until this time next year.
:)
The core of the processor is pretty much new, so I don't know that the problems with the P3 will carry over or not. Probably will just have its own, all-new set of "errata".
Intel is really screwing with people on this one. They have lost their raw MHz & performance leads to AMD. To cover this fact up, they are:
1. Playing games with processor speed. "Your processor runs at 1GHz...well ours runs at 3GHz!" Of course this is only one small portion of the chip. Also forgetting to mention the numerous trade-offs they had to make, like 20 stage pipelines that will take huge hits on missed branch predictions.
2. I am sure in certain circumstances the Willy will blow the doors off the Athlon, but these most likely will be with some synthetic, hand-tuned benchmarks. The PR group will latch onto to these as proof that your Internet browsing experience will be so much better.
3. FP performance is going out the door, they are not trying to improve it anymore. For example, the 'FXCH' instruction which is commonly used in FP code is now taking a big performance hit. Intel is betting the farm on SSE, hoping they can get software developers on their side and ignoring the existing software base out there (forget good Quake framerates with this chip).
Copper interconnects reduce power consumption and allow higher frequencies. Intel is probably wanting to hold off on using copper for the initial production run while they work out any other issues with the chip, especially since the Willy pushes into some new territory technology-wise (whether for better or worse). With their recent track record of "errata", I am sure they will want to keep any potential problem sources to a minimum as long as they can keep performance competitive.
As for the bus, 400MHz sounds pretty impressive, but until memory technology catches up, that extra bandwidth will remain wasted (at least on single processor systems).
Must crack keys...must join Slashdot team...
Rob is my hero...
(And now I return you back to reality)
Just a couple items:
1. It is reported that the execution units have a 20-stage pipeline. So stalls will hurt big-time unless Intel has something new up its sleeves (which I really doubt). They'll probably let loose plenty of PR using benchmarks with some very carefully hand-tuned code that shows this chip just blows AMD out of the water, but will mean little for most things.
2. The FPU is running at half the speed of the ALU. So FP performance will not be up to par for scientific applications (or games) as compared to an AMD processor running both at the same speed. Athlon's FPU is already known to blow PIII's out of the water.
3. This processor won't be released until the end of the year, which the way things have been working means they won't be available until next year. By then, Athlon will have large on-die cache, increased bus speed and possibly SMP systems (fingers crossed).
Straight from their mouth...
What is VAIO?
Pre-Pentium chips had plenty of bugs (oops...errata) as well check them out here.
I have been thinking about the reasons why IBM might be doing this, and came up 2 possibilities:
1. To compete with Sun's E10K's. Sun has been encroaching on the mainframe realm with these systems. E10K's support up to 64 processors, terabytes of storage and logical partitioning of hardware resources. I don't believe (you can correct me if I am wrong) that IBM has any AIX based systems on par with what Sun offers. It would allow someone a relatively easy upgrade path (at least from a systems/software view) from their AIX systems.
2. Caving in to all the Linux hype...hey it's good PR.
On a related note...
I am not totally familiar with the inner workings of X, but if a S/390 supports TCP/IP wouldn't there be the possibility of using one of these system as an application server server to graphic terminals? Much of the use of character-mode mainframe applications is software related (CICS) and not so much the limitations of the hardware and I/O.
KryoTech has announced/released their 1GHz system which uses the 750MHz (0.18 process).
It should be fairly easy to get this processor up to 850MHz with the usual OC tricks. The stock cache runs at 1/2.5 of CPU (1/2.5*750=300MHz) which might need to be set down to 1/3 to get it running.
Should see some additional improvements once they add the copper process (which is probably what will be needed to reach 1GHz with normal cooling).
Also, didn't see this mentioned elsewhere, but AMD did demo a 900MHz air-cooled (i.e. heat sink/fan combo) Athlon at Comdex. This means their availability can't be far off!
Yes...it's not that hardware costs that are so prohibitive...it's the service and software contracts are. While mainframe harware is modern, not all software and service contracts are.
Many companies believe they can still sell their their software for an outragious price. So much so, it would make an open source advocate to keel over in his tracks.
I work in one of the indutries that you mention, and things like this fuel fantasies of overturning the Microsoft bought-out world where I work and installing Linux. Those people on production support, network admins, etc. would love me!
Please don't kill my dream!
There is this assummption that mainframes are ancient technology and are just dinosaurs waiting to die. I work for a company that is a large mainframe shop, and after checking out one of our 4 data centers, I was quite impressed with the technology involved in a modern mainframe system.
We have several processing boxes which are linked by fiber optics. They provide many different logical partitions (i.e. systems) which are dynamically allocated across the available CPU's. Kind of a cross between redundancy clusters and Beowolf clusters with dedicated I/O processors to handle the I/O requests of several hundred users.
While these systems might not beat out the raw horsepower of modern CPU's, the supporting communication and I/O bandwith cannot be beat.
Now let's have Mindcraft have a benchmark against a mainframe running Linux and the best NT system (I know...it's an oxymoron) out there, and let see what results they get...
Sony is desperate (maybe too strong a word?) to find someone who will license its Memory Stick technology. I believe this is the first use of it outside Sony itself.
I won't argue about its relative merits when compared to Compact Flash (due to my own ignorance), but this too might go the way of Beta if they don't get some more companies on-board.
China is a country known for infringement of various copyright violations (music CD's, software). So, they think it is a good idea to support an OS that promotes free distribution. It's better than backing Windows and then getting busted for illegal copies.
Many hard drives are already loaded with Windows...something to do with the verification software the HD manufacturers use. An old argument about selling systems without Windows is that it would cost more to install Linux (or any other OS), rather than just plugging in a HD with Win already installed.
I think that if a HD came with Linux installed will have a bigger impact than just shipping a CD with a motherboard. For example, you can get a copy of AOL or Compuserve with almost any computer item you buy, but that doesn't mean we are all using them as our ISP.
Also, I would hate to see a Linux CD be elavated to the drink coaster status like AOL CD's.
AMD is currently going for the high-end to help bump up their ASP (average selling price). ASP is a good indicator of a chip companies' profitability, and the Athlon will definitely help them (I think pre-Athlon ASP was somewhere below $70ish).
Athlon was designed for speed, not economy of power and heat. Their K6-2/3 have been gaining them market share in the notebook arena this past year, and that design (while not the screamer Athlon is) is much more suitable to notebook requirements. I wouldn't expect to see an Athlon portable until they start putting the L2 cache on-die.
If Transmeta is creating the next big thing in processors, I am almost positive they will have someone else manufacturing them. It is not uncommon for semiconductor companies to be fabless, and I am sure we would have heard it if Transmeta was purchasing/building a fab.
They are currently selling K6-2 and K6-3 systems.
Intel can afford to cut the prices on their chips because of the huge markups on the Xeon line of processors. Yes, the PIII's might end up cheaper than a K7 (oops...Athlon), but performance-wise the AMD is comparing more to a Xeon. And based on this, it is still a much better deal.
Jolt & 151....mmmm....
Wired & wasted!
The 200 MHz bus speed is the bus going to/from the processor(s) to the MMU, PCI bus, etc. The memory will still operate at 100/133 MHz for the first systems.
This 200 MHz bus will be really shine in SMP. It utilizes a point-to-point design that is more scalable than Intel's SMP design which uses one bus (at 100 MHz on current systems) with dedicated lines for each processor.
AMD claims that the K7 will be released initially at 500, 550 and 600 MHz. There have been reports that they will be able to reach 700 MHz on the current 0.25 process, and at least 1 GHz on the newer 0.18 process which they are adopting later this year. They plan to keep about 50 MHz faster than the top-of-the-line Intel offerings.
If these spec results are to be believed, this could be a definite Xeon killer once SMP systems are available. Gee...a processor that outperforms a Xeon, for oh about a tenth of the price. Hard decision there...
For the PIII Xeon cache was reported as 512K.
Being someone who is confined to a wheelchair, I am curious as to where the camera is located. I assume that they are positioned for a standing person of average height, which would be impossible for me to get to.
I hope that they are providing an alternate way of identifing yourself. Like the old-fashioned ATM card with a PIN.
Yes, I am in a wheelchair and a geek too! While I do not need any special software/hardware to do my job/hobby, I have been good friends with many visually impared people who have had a great deal of difficulty in the modern GUI age, many of which still depend on DOS & WP5.1. I have heard quite a few complaints about M$'s support of adaptive equipment and use of non-standard key-sequences in its software. This of course goes against all of the PR we see/hear (not that this is anything new to /. users).
I think this would be a great area that Linux could excel in. And when it comes to web pages like mentioned before, can be a help for those Lynx users out there as well.
And just a personal note about the 'uhhhmmmm, uh, differently abled programmers', I am just one person, but I don't buy into all this PC BS. I could care less that the world's best graphics program is called the GIMP.
This is correct. The workstation m-boards only support 2 Xeon's, but do throw in an AGP slot. The server allows four, more memory capacity (8 SIMMS or something like that), and no AGP.
I think 4 processors would be overkill in anything but a server situation, and then only if you doing database stuff. Or generating Slashdot pages on the fly for the masses...