No, not arguing with it. Just want to know what to expect.
It's actually fairly moot for me, High Sierra won't run on my 2009 Mac Pro anyway.
I think they are doing this roll-out about as optimally and safely as they can. So far, I have yet to hear any "screams of a thousand users"; so I think this is going to go like the transition from PPC to Intel: Utterly transparent to the average user.
Hopefully that will prove less shocking and more illuminating. Good luck!
Haha! That's very logical.
On a completely different subject, is there a browser that Slashdot DOESN'T hate?!?
[rant] I am SO sick of Chrome on Windows having issues with refresh-flashing while scrolling, like an old IBM 8086 without scroll-during vertial-sync (WHAT year is this, again?) and presenting the topmost banner ad at a size that LITERALLY obliterates the entire top half of the frickin' screen on my W7 work laptop! It's damn-near unusable...
And NO other website has these issues! For a "geek" website, Slashdot has, hands-down, the WORST web-coders in the ENTIRE intarwebs! [/rant]
Stop defending apples crappy software. If apple wants to boast about their amazing products maybe they should start writing some. Siri is sub standard.
and I work for a company that makes voice-controlled machinery. It's just garbage. I've watched coworkers waste hours trying to get Siri to do something. It doesn't understand "navigate to..." or "directions to..." Why refuse to support that Apple? It doesn't make a damn bit of sense.
LIAR.
I just tried both phrases, and in both cases, it pulled up Apple Maps with a Route highlighted.
Why LIE for such an easily-demonstrable example?
It even works with a "shortcut" Destination label like "Home", as in "Navigate to Home".
You might tell your co-workers to stop trying to ask Siri to "Navigate to 'My Butt' ", and similar nonsensical locations.
I can't imagine there won't be, though, so the discussion's really moot. I just wanted to point out the logical fallacy... I didn't even notice that it was you when I posted;)
You're right. I would imagine that Apple has bigger fish to fry when it comes to APFS development right now.
I will say, I upgraded my iPhone 6+ to iOS 10.3.3 (and thus to APFS), and not only did I recover over 3 GB of storage, every-single-thing seems QUITE a bit faster. Live several times faster! Could be some kernel optimization; but I think it is largely due to APFS. Seriously!
No problem! Always enjoy sparring with you!!!;-)
Have a great weekend! I'm going to be rewiring and replacing my front-porch light...
Why lie? I've seen more than a dozen people try it, again since I work for a company that makes voice-controlled equipment, and I have never seen it work. We do this for a living. It does not work. The Apple fanbois resort to lying to protect Apple
We don't lie! Roll the tape!!!
Don't know about "Navigate To..." but "Directions To..." IS a standard Siri command:
and I work for a company that makes voice-controlled machinery. It's just garbage. I've watched coworkers waste hours trying to get Siri to do something. It doesn't understand "navigate to..." or "directions to..." Why refuse to support that Apple? It doesn't make a damn bit of sense.
What's the name of YOUR company? Care to let some Slashdotter's test YOUR products' Voice Recognition capabilities of completely arbitrary, natural-language requests, with ZERO training or speaker-dependence?
We're talking about BootCamp. macOS isn't running when booted into Windows, so I reiterate, where, pray tell, do you imagine the SMB server capable of reading the AFPS partition would run?
Sorry. Didn't look far enough back in the thread to see that this was a BootCamp sub-thread.
You're right. There isn't a BootCamp driver for APFS. Yet.
You're lucky. I've had to use DiskWarrior numerous times to repair problems that Apple's own utilities could not fix. Not in recent years, but the early 2000s saw this many times across different systems. Things did get much better when HFS+ added journaling in 10.2.2, but it was a few major versions past that before the problems (non-hardware-induced) stopped occurring entirely for me.
Don't take it so personally. Different people have different experiences, and that's ok. I can see you popping a vein in your forehead every time something negative is said about Apple, even when it's true. They aren't perfect, and frankly, it's a testament to their hard work that HFS+ worked as well as it has, given the legacy design it was built on.
I never said HFS or HFS+ has never lost a byte of data in the history of Macs. I simply said I have not personally experience any data losses (that were not a result of catastrophic hardware failure).
I DID have to use DiskWarrior once, back in about 2001, when I had a hard drive in a 2nd gen CRT iMac suddenly (like over the course of 30 seconds!) go from seeminly working perfectly, to a smoldering pile (not actually) of unreadability (at least as far as OS X and Disk First Aid was considered!); but even then, I don't think I lost a single file, and besides, it CERTAINLY wasn't HFS+'s fault. So, IMHO, that doesn't "count".
As far as ext goes, you appear to be correct. The article I consulted was wrong, and thus I was wrong for claiming NATIVE support for ext in OS X/macOS.
HOWEVER, you CAN use MacFUSE/OSXFUSE and get at least read support for ext 2/3/4, plus, you should be able to use SMB fileharing to access ext volumes on a Linux server, right? :
If you care about having a cross platform (macOS, Windows, Linux) file system for that last resort backup/archive, with a built-in driver on those platforms, that also supports large file sizes, you'd use UDF. If you're more of a storage geek, you might consider NTFS by enabling write support. And if you're even more of a storage geek you'd look at OpenZFS.
I'd LOVE to consider OpenZFS; however, the lack of a GUI manager (at least the last I looked), and an ongoing list of rather scary bugs and limitations (still!!!) has me understandably gun-shy about it.
As for the rest, they are really no better than using HFS+, and are significantly worse and APFS.
The article doesn't talk about drives, though. It talks about systems. As though the only storage anyone has is a single drive that came from the factory. No clue what it will do on systems with a mix of storage.
From what I have read, High Sierra will ONLY convert the Boot Volume, and then, ONLY if it is an SSD.
So, for the rest of anything, they will remain HFS+, or whatever they were formatted-as.
macOS, like most modern OSes, supports a bunch of different Filesystems.
My only gripe about APFS is the lack of checksumming. Which means no bitrot detection... which is a really bad thing when storing media for long term. One minor item would be the lack of deduplication.
However, this filesystem was definitely needed. It will change how a lot of things work, and upgrade security. The ability to back up via snapshots makes this very useful. The faster I/O due to copy on write cannot hurt either.
All and all, I think this will be the absolute best feature that 10.13.x comes with.
I REALLY don't know where this "No Checksumming" meme started; but it simply ISN'T true:
And just an an anecdote, I Upgraded my iPhone 6 to iOS 10.3.3 a couple of nights ago. iOS 10.3.3 is APFS-based, period.
Not only did I regain about 3 GB of storage; but every single thing is about 3 times as fast! Some of that may be some code-optimization; but I think a good portion of it is due to APFS.
Usually has been the best bet for USB sticks you don't know where they will be used. That's what I have always told my Mac-owning friends, if they think there is event the slightest possiblity that there USB stick will end up in a computer other than a Mac.
That's not Apple's fault. FAT is just the lowest-common-denominator Filesystem.
You can use NTFS if you're willing to install something on your Mac. Most drives (I know seagate does, and I assume WD does too) are NTFS formatted, and the "mac software" they provide (either on disk or downloadable) include the Paragon NTFS driver which will get you read-write access to NTFS partitions.
It's not the cleanest driver in the world (Paragon really created a FUSE-like driver and plugins for it - so you can read NTFS and ext3/4 too) but commercially supported and easily had for free.
More daring individuals can use MacFUSE and ntfs-3g, which I hear is really stable nowadays as well. And at one point, Apple actually supported ext3 as a mountable filesystem type.
You can use MacFUSE; or, in more-recent OS X/macOS versions, you can simply enable full R/W NTFS support:
Further, APFS is still very new. Apple is a multinational company. Do your REALLY think they won't be ironed-out sooner, rather than later?
Btrfs is still in development and has quite a while to go. Filesystems are very difficult and are something you cannot fuck up on! You needs years of testing and verifiability before you push a new fs to market.
And yet, Synology, to name a company with a LOT to lose by embracing a new filesystem, has gone all-in on btrfs on their new OS. Are THEY being foolhardy? Why not whine about THEM? They migrated from ext4 to btrfs virtually overnight!
I hope Apple at least fixed all the Unicode bugs in this APFS release. I think I'll stick with ext4.
Of course you will, you good little Linux fanboi...
1. Twice the theoretical filestorage limit. But in a practical sense, how many users are going to bump up against HFS+'s 8 EiB limit, anyway?
2. Better Hard-Links support.
3. Case-sensitivity by Default (although it is highly debatable as to whether this is actually an ADVANTAGE for most users!)
4. XIP (Execute in Place). Whatever...
5. Filesystem-level Encryption (Experimental). And HFS+ has it too, sort of, with macOS' FileVault
6. Allocate-on-Flush
7. Sparse Files
Now, let's reverse the question. What does HFS+ have that ext4 doesn't:
1. Access Control Lists without any caveats (see Wiki footnote "aq")
2. Last Archive Timestamps
3. File-Change Logging
So, other than a few, mostly esoteric features, it seems like HFS+ and ext4 are fairly equal in terms of modern storage limits, filename and pathname support, and almost every other thing.
So, it sure seems like HFS+ does NOT deserve Linus' claimed-moniker of "Worst Filesystem Ever".
tl;dr: Linus can blow me. He's full of shit, and I have the data to prove it!
LOL, I don't have root on here or anything. You can call me a dumbass with impunity. Many do!:-D
I could see how you'd read what I said as a criticism of Mac users, but that wasn't my intent. I only brought us into the mix because the person I was replying to started off with "do they expect Mac users to...", to which the answer is no, no they don't.
;-)
I very much enjoy that you used the term "Us". Sometimes I feel like the lone-defender of all things Apple on here, LOL! I have already had to abandon at least ONE UID because it got punish-modded by ACs into a Karmic-level the depths of which I didn't even know EXISTED on/.... Kinda hard to rebuild your Karma when you are allowed but TWO posts per day (rollseyes) !!!
Thanks again for your considered and erudite reply...
Slashdot Mirror
OS/2 Warp user here. I've been waiting years for any news at all.
Post of the day! Thanks!!!
No, not arguing with it. Just want to know what to expect.
It's actually fairly moot for me, High Sierra won't run on my 2009 Mac Pro anyway.
I think they are doing this roll-out about as optimally and safely as they can. So far, I have yet to hear any "screams of a thousand users"; so I think this is going to go like the transition from PPC to Intel: Utterly transparent to the average user.
Hopefully that will prove less shocking and more illuminating. Good luck!
Haha! That's very logical.
On a completely different subject, is there a browser that Slashdot DOESN'T hate?!?
[rant]
I am SO sick of Chrome on Windows having issues with refresh-flashing while scrolling, like an old IBM 8086 without scroll-during vertial-sync (WHAT year is this, again?) and presenting the topmost banner ad at a size that LITERALLY obliterates the entire top half of the frickin' screen on my W7 work laptop! It's damn-near unusable...
And NO other website has these issues! For a "geek" website, Slashdot has, hands-down, the WORST web-coders in the ENTIRE intarwebs!
[/rant]
Stop defending apples crappy software. If apple wants to boast about their amazing products maybe they should start writing some. Siri is sub standard.
PROVE IT, or SFTU, COWARD!
apple is built on the lies of their fanbois.
...and Apple Hate is built on the lies of Anonymous COWARDS.
and I work for a company that makes voice-controlled machinery. It's just garbage. I've watched coworkers waste hours trying to get Siri to do something. It doesn't understand "navigate to..." or "directions to..." Why refuse to support that Apple? It doesn't make a damn bit of sense.
LIAR.
I just tried both phrases, and in both cases, it pulled up Apple Maps with a Route highlighted.
Why LIE for such an easily-demonstrable example?
It even works with a "shortcut" Destination label like "Home", as in "Navigate to Home".
You might tell your co-workers to stop trying to ask Siri to "Navigate to 'My Butt' ", and similar nonsensical locations.
I can't imagine there won't be, though, so the discussion's really moot. I just wanted to point out the logical fallacy... I didn't even notice that it was you when I posted ;)
You're right. I would imagine that Apple has bigger fish to fry when it comes to APFS development right now.
I will say, I upgraded my iPhone 6+ to iOS 10.3.3 (and thus to APFS), and not only did I recover over 3 GB of storage, every-single-thing seems QUITE a bit faster. Live several times faster! Could be some kernel optimization; but I think it is largely due to APFS. Seriously!
No problem! Always enjoy sparring with you!!! ;-)
Have a great weekend! I'm going to be rewiring and replacing my front-porch light...
That is all the explanation necessary.
Whoa, Apple has formally handed control of Siri to the Ferengi?!
LOL!
Why lie? I've seen more than a dozen people try it, again since I work for a company that makes voice-controlled equipment, and I have never seen it work. We do this for a living. It does not work. The Apple fanbois resort to lying to protect Apple
We don't lie! Roll the tape!!!
Don't know about "Navigate To..." but "Directions To..." IS a standard Siri command:
https://www.cnet.com/how-to/th...
So, better check those pants of yours. They appear to be on fire...
and I work for a company that makes voice-controlled machinery. It's just garbage. I've watched coworkers waste hours trying to get Siri to do something. It doesn't understand "navigate to..." or "directions to..." Why refuse to support that Apple? It doesn't make a damn bit of sense.
What's the name of YOUR company? Care to let some Slashdotter's test YOUR products' Voice Recognition capabilities of completely arbitrary, natural-language requests, with ZERO training or speaker-dependence?
Didn't think so.
So do you fellate him literally, or just figuratively?
Wouldn't YOU like to know?
Incorrect. It's news for sheep. Furthermore, it's not stuff that matters.
You mean the same way I feel when I read a Slashdot headline about the latest Linux kernel, or Windows 10 update?
Not every article has to be of interest to every /. reader. Feel free to skip to the ones that DO interest you.
Good to know, thanks. Wonder if like TRIM they'll only do that on SSD's that appear to have been shipped by Apple.
Don't know. But at this early stage, I think they are proceeding extremely cautiously, one step at a time.
Would you REALLY rather they didn't take that approach?
We're talking about BootCamp. macOS isn't running when booted into Windows, so I reiterate, where, pray tell, do you imagine the SMB server capable of reading the AFPS partition would run?
Sorry. Didn't look far enough back in the thread to see that this was a BootCamp sub-thread.
You're right. There isn't a BootCamp driver for APFS. Yet.
You're lucky. I've had to use DiskWarrior numerous times to repair problems that Apple's own utilities could not fix. Not in recent years, but the early 2000s saw this many times across different systems. Things did get much better when HFS+ added journaling in 10.2.2, but it was a few major versions past that before the problems (non-hardware-induced) stopped occurring entirely for me.
Don't take it so personally. Different people have different experiences, and that's ok. I can see you popping a vein in your forehead every time something negative is said about Apple, even when it's true. They aren't perfect, and frankly, it's a testament to their hard work that HFS+ worked as well as it has, given the legacy design it was built on.
I never said HFS or HFS+ has never lost a byte of data in the history of Macs. I simply said I have not personally experience any data losses (that were not a result of catastrophic hardware failure).
I DID have to use DiskWarrior once, back in about 2001, when I had a hard drive in a 2nd gen CRT iMac suddenly (like over the course of 30 seconds!) go from seeminly working perfectly, to a smoldering pile (not actually) of unreadability (at least as far as OS X and Disk First Aid was considered!); but even then, I don't think I lost a single file, and besides, it CERTAINLY wasn't HFS+'s fault. So, IMHO, that doesn't "count".
macOS does not have write support for NTFS out of the box. And it has neither read nor write support for ext2, ext3, or ext4.
BZZT! Wrong! Thanks for playing!
Recent versions (I think at least as far back as OS X 10.8) DO have NTFS write support. You just have to Enable it using a Command-Line incantation:
http://www.techrepublic.com/ar...
As far as ext goes, you appear to be correct. The article I consulted was wrong, and thus I was wrong for claiming NATIVE support for ext in OS X/macOS.
HOWEVER, you CAN use MacFUSE/OSXFUSE and get at least read support for ext 2/3/4, plus, you should be able to use SMB fileharing to access ext volumes on a Linux server, right? :
https://github.com/osxfuse/osx...
If you care about having a cross platform (macOS, Windows, Linux) file system for that last resort backup/archive, with a built-in driver on those platforms, that also supports large file sizes, you'd use UDF. If you're more of a storage geek, you might consider NTFS by enabling write support. And if you're even more of a storage geek you'd look at OpenZFS.
I'd LOVE to consider OpenZFS; however, the lack of a GUI manager (at least the last I looked), and an ongoing list of rather scary bugs and limitations (still!!!) has me understandably gun-shy about it.
As for the rest, they are really no better than using HFS+, and are significantly worse and APFS.
The article doesn't talk about drives, though. It talks about systems. As though the only storage anyone has is a single drive that came from the factory. No clue what it will do on systems with a mix of storage.
From what I have read, High Sierra will ONLY convert the Boot Volume, and then, ONLY if it is an SSD.
So, for the rest of anything, they will remain HFS+, or whatever they were formatted-as.
macOS, like most modern OSes, supports a bunch of different Filesystems.
My only gripe about APFS is the lack of checksumming. Which means no bitrot detection... which is a really bad thing when storing media for long term. One minor item would be the lack of deduplication.
However, this filesystem was definitely needed. It will change how a lot of things work, and upgrade security. The ability to back up via snapshots makes this very useful. The faster I/O due to copy on write cannot hurt either.
All and all, I think this will be the absolute best feature that 10.13.x comes with.
I REALLY don't know where this "No Checksumming" meme started; but it simply ISN'T true:
https://blog.cugu.eu/post/apfs...
And just an an anecdote, I Upgraded my iPhone 6 to iOS 10.3.3 a couple of nights ago. iOS 10.3.3 is APFS-based, period.
Not only did I regain about 3 GB of storage; but every single thing is about 3 times as fast! Some of that may be some code-optimization; but I think a good portion of it is due to APFS.
You can use NTFS if you're willing to install something on your Mac. Most drives (I know seagate does, and I assume WD does too) are NTFS formatted, and the "mac software" they provide (either on disk or downloadable) include the Paragon NTFS driver which will get you read-write access to NTFS partitions.
It's not the cleanest driver in the world (Paragon really created a FUSE-like driver and plugins for it - so you can read NTFS and ext3/4 too) but commercially supported and easily had for free.
More daring individuals can use MacFUSE and ntfs-3g, which I hear is really stable nowadays as well. And at one point, Apple actually supported ext3 as a mountable filesystem type.
You can use MacFUSE; or, in more-recent OS X/macOS versions, you can simply enable full R/W NTFS support:
http://www.techrepublic.com/ar...
Thanks! I'll be here all week.
Please remember to tip the fish and try the waitresses!
Strat
;-)
And I would imagine that file-sharing between macOS and Windows OSes will be handled like Network Shares, through SMB.
Where, pray tell, do you imagine the SMB server capable of reading the AFPS partition would run?
From what I have read, Apple has already added APFS support into their SAMBA-replacement. I would imagine that would take care of that.
HFS+ is shit and is dangerous. It's based on very old standards and is a total mess under the hood, not so different than NTFS.
https://www.cio.com/article/2868393/linus-torvalds-apples-hfs-is-probably-the-worst-file-system-ever.html
And just because St. Linus spews out garbage, you lap it up like the good Apple-Hater you are:
But here's da facts, Jack. Read 'em and weep:
https://slashdot.org/comments....
APFS also has huge Unicode issues:
https://eclecticlight.co/2017/04/06/apfs-is-currently-unusable-with-most-non-english-languages/
Bullshit. APFS supports Unicode 9.0. PLENTY of multilanguage support!
https://developer.apple.com/li...
http://unicode.org/versions/Un...
Further, APFS is still very new. Apple is a multinational company. Do your REALLY think they won't be ironed-out sooner, rather than later?
Btrfs is still in development and has quite a while to go. Filesystems are very difficult and are something you cannot fuck up on! You needs years of testing and verifiability before you push a new fs to market.
And yet, Synology, to name a company with a LOT to lose by embracing a new filesystem, has gone all-in on btrfs on their new OS. Are THEY being foolhardy? Why not whine about THEM? They migrated from ext4 to btrfs virtually overnight!
I hope Apple at least fixed all the Unicode bugs in this APFS release. I think I'll stick with ext4.
Of course you will, you good little Linux fanboi...
User name checks out.
So, you tell me: What does ext4 have that HFS+ doesn't? Nevermind, I will tell YOU:
From the Wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
1. Twice the theoretical filestorage limit. But in a practical sense, how many users are going to bump up against HFS+'s 8 EiB limit, anyway?
2. Better Hard-Links support.
3. Case-sensitivity by Default (although it is highly debatable as to whether this is actually an ADVANTAGE for most users!)
4. XIP (Execute in Place). Whatever...
5. Filesystem-level Encryption (Experimental). And HFS+ has it too, sort of, with macOS' FileVault
6. Allocate-on-Flush
7. Sparse Files
Now, let's reverse the question. What does HFS+ have that ext4 doesn't:
1. Access Control Lists without any caveats (see Wiki footnote "aq")
2. Last Archive Timestamps
3. File-Change Logging
So, other than a few, mostly esoteric features, it seems like HFS+ and ext4 are fairly equal in terms of modern storage limits, filename and pathname support, and almost every other thing.
So, it sure seems like HFS+ does NOT deserve Linus' claimed-moniker of "Worst Filesystem Ever".
tl;dr: Linus can blow me. He's full of shit, and I have the data to prove it!
LOL, I don't have root on here or anything. You can call me a dumbass with impunity. Many do! :-D
I could see how you'd read what I said as a criticism of Mac users, but that wasn't my intent. I only brought us into the mix because the person I was replying to started off with "do they expect Mac users to...", to which the answer is no, no they don't.
;-)
I very much enjoy that you used the term "Us". Sometimes I feel like the lone-defender of all things Apple on here, LOL! I have already had to abandon at least ONE UID because it got punish-modded by ACs into a Karmic-level the depths of which I didn't even know EXISTED on /. ... Kinda hard to rebuild your Karma when you are allowed but TWO posts per day (rollseyes) !!!
Thanks again for your considered and erudite reply...