IMO, the new MPB is an impressive engineering job. I really mean it. But as a pro user I can't help being disappointed that the marketing department have limited what could have been a wonderful, no compromise work tool in favor of gimmicks.
The advances I quoted are HARDLY "Gimmicks"; they are solid Engineering improvements. Even the TouchBar is quite the feature when the Application Developer understands how to best use it (or not) in their particular Application.
Sure, you can compensate for everything except the RAM by hanging stuff in a harness of dongles around it (if you remembered to bring them), but it is often not *practical*, which - in many forms (connectors, wire lock, physical function keys, oversize cursor keys) - is an aspect that they apparently haven't discovered yet for their list of what pro users are interested in.
You just don't get it, obviously.
The genius of having a laptop with a shitpotfull of symmetrical, multifunctional, I/O bandwidth is that you have a system that has a MUCH wider Application Envelope than one that has howevermany dedicated, legacy ports. I might need 10 FULL-SPEED 3.0 USB-A Ports to hook up a bunch of Audio interfaces. You might not. You might only need 4 USB-A ports, but want 4 monitors. But with TB 3, you can have your 4 monitors and I can have two monitors, three Ethernet busses, and 10 FULL-SPEED 3.0 USB Ports.
It's all about CHOICE. What we used to have to do with a tower computer stuffed to the gills with peripheral cards, most of which were hogging a precious I/O slot for an interface that used a small fraction of the bandwidth available to that slot, we now can share a single Port with a dizzying array of available I/O options. And best of all: It's mostly platform agnostic.The same USB-C/TB3 "Dock" that you can hook to your Dell lappie can almost always work on my MacBook. As a long-time Mac user, who secretly pined over the peripheral options available only to the Wintel crowd, this is a Brand New Day.
And I, for one, am QUITE happy that it is finally here!
I agree with this sentiment. Touchpads are the ultimate in dumbing down a HID to make it 'friendly' but ultimately less efficient. I refuse to use a consumer notebook these days, so I stick with my T-series ThinkPads with TrackPoint. I understand why some people like touchpads, but I find them irritating, slow, awkward, and inaccurate. Also, nothing like moving a mouse without taking your hands off the home keys.
You must have only used non-Apple trackpads, then.
ALL trackpads are ass. Only the worst of the Apple fanboys claim Apple trackpads are good. They're not. It's simply an inferior tool.
I have a Trackpad on my "MacBook Pro wannabe" Samsung work laptop. I use a mouse on that system. The Trackpad IS "ass".
Well, I was simply asking when the ZFS folks got booting working, because it used to be a problem IIRC.
It's been working fine on FreeBSD and Linux.
But since you can't hold a rational discourse with spewing Apple Hate, I guess we're done here.
Yeah, I hate apple. I have good reason to. I just listed one--they went with their own shit-tastic filesystem and last time I checked, they aren't open enough to boot from ZFS.
It may surprise you, but my work computer is a piece-of-shit Macbook Pro. I am forced to use it by policy. It's *terrible*. If I don't fit the 'Apple mold' and just use brain-dead point-and-click applications all day, I end up with segfaults, performance problems, and out-of-memory issues. Hell--vim segfaults 2-3 times per hour on my Macbook. I've never seen that on Linux or FreeBSD. I measure my Macbook uptime in hours, my Linux uptime in months, and my FreeBSD uptime in years.
So yeah--I have a *lot* of hate for Apple products. All it took was using a Macbook Pro for ~3 months in my life, and a newly issued iPhone S (for evaluating an iOS app) for the last week. You might not like the hate, but it's absolutely justified hate. And since this is about filesystems and Apple just released a product that screams "we wanted ZFS, but not-invented-here" that doesn't checksum user data...well...one more reason to hate Apple products.
You've got something hardware-related wrong with that MacBook.
I have had exactly ONE Kernel Panic (what you are incorrectly calling a "Seg-fault") in my years of running OS X/macOS (and that started with OS X 10.0.0; so MANY years), and that was some Freeware "scanner driver" that was a POS. An Unhandled Interrupt if I had to guess.
The only other time I had KPs (and a LOT of them!) was when I bought some dodgy memory for a G5 tower that wasn't up to spec. Hardware Test figured that one out. I replaced the RAM, and not one other KP, ever.
And before you say that is because all I use are "approved", "safe" applications, then perhaps you should look to the quality of the APPLICATIONS, and stop blaming the PLATFORM. If you search for "vim crash os x", you will find a long and storied history of that simple Editor being an unstable POS. Don't think it's the Mac's fault. It's a fucking EDITOR, FFS! Just one that has an issue that no one has bothered to track down and fix.
The Internet is no longer a niche only a few people care about (see SOPA). Republicans are in for a surprise when democrats run ads with this shit against them and it proves to be effective. Trumps own base is against this. FFS INFOWARS is against it.
This issue is an overwhelming loser with the public. Nobody believes ISPs should be allowed to stalk you online and no amount of weaving shit into gold is going to mask the smell. From what I remember public polling on this was something like 11% of the general public favoring the republican bill.
Rachael Maddow had a poll on last night that showed that 11% said Trump should sign that Bill, and 74% said "No" and "Hell, No!".
And here we are, with our "Representative Governance".
When you use Google for free, it is with the implied consent that your search history is being collected and monetized in exchange for the search service. When you pay Comcast for an Internet connection, there is no implied consent that you paying for a service means that Comcast makes money on your Internet data.
This. This. A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!!!
Oh, and howabout "It's MY data; not theirs". In the meatspace world, that would be called THEFT.
Excellent 'Dune' reference. Where can I buy mod points?
Actually, it's more like the bit about the Baron keeping the cat alive so the poison antidote can continue to be available. If the cat dies (because you didn't pay your tribute), You die too (you can't open your front door lock, and have to sleep in your car, which then gets towed with you in it).
>Won't buy anything that relies on an app for full functionality.
Then this device wouldn't appeal to you anyway. As I understand it, the whole purpose of this device is to give you access to your garage door from your phone, which obviously requires an app (I guess you could technically also do it from a webpage, so I don't know if you'd be OK with that, but this stupid company probably doesn't have a webpage alternative to the app).
What I'd like to see is devices like this which publish their API, so you can make your own server and app if you want to.
Don't worry; the protocol is probably all exposed in cleartext on a PCB trace inside the device. Any reasonably-apt embedded jock should be able to reverse-engineer the command set in a couple of hours. But likely not if the server won't let you on.
Actually, my Linux Mint's are just running well, yesterday I needed to scan some documents, so a picked up from basement my old Canon LED USB scanner that is not working on OSX anymore, no drivers. Connected to the Mint and in like 5 seconds I was burning documents using it, no pain, no drivers to install, nothing. EAT that Apple & Microsoft!
Wake me when they release a standard Pro tower not this garbage can!
"[...] the list of things pro users are interested in talking about. They're interested in things like performance and storage and expandability."
Uhmm... If they knew all along, I'd like to hear him explain the latest MacBook Pro model.
New MacBook Pro:
Performance: USABLE performance almost DOUBLE of the previous model, since the thermal design allows both the CPU and GPU to run at 100% 24/7 without throttling.
Storage: USB-C and Thunderbolt 3 provide external storage that is nearly as fast as internal storage.
Expandability: With 80 Gbps of raw I/O bandwidth, the new MBP is the world's most expandable laptop already.
I disagree. I think Jobs' vision was Apple itself and he worked very hard to make sure the ideals and culture would survive him. The cylindrical Mac Pro was designed with love and it was a very Jobsian machine in my mind. But the design just doesn't stand up to what people want in a pro machine. (G4 Cube anyone?)
What is Apple doing so wrong? And how would Jobs have done things differently? Under Jobs Apple killed the Xserve overnight.
Well, not "overnight"; but it sure should have made the transition to Intel before they gave up on it.
Every single Surface pro I see used is used with the keyboard and they use the trackpoint spot on the keyboard cover. When I had the Surface Pro I tried to use the touchscreen. It's pretty darn useless if you are doing any real work.
And yet, with all the Surface commercials, it's ALL they advertise...
And by "works" you mean after you've manually configured files, got told to RTFM which doesn't exist, got yelled at online by people who think you should automatically know what to do, then sacrifice a goat in the hope an obscure posting from three years ago will do the trick.
If Linux just "works", why is it people on here repeatedly post about not having sound or cameras or drives working even with the latest packages and instead have to jump through hoop trying to get the above to work?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Ideally, Apple should ship a 256 GB NVMe SSD and a 1TB HDD, using that for a baseline Fusion configuration. For expanded stuff, the machine should have at least two NVMe slots (for SSD RAID), and a good amount of SATA slots with a hardware RAID controller that supports autotiering, and RAID 6.
In the desktop world, I believe that TB 3 has nicely addressed that need. No reason whatsoever to have massive amounts of internal drive bays.
Apple has a serious problem with storage on MBP. For their price points they should start at 512, with 1T being the norm and all lines having a slight increase to access 2T. If iMac is going to be like MBP why would anyone care?
With TB, who cares? Especially with a desktop. Get yourself an external and STFU.
Apple will make you use dongles and raise the price for their toy Macs. Real (Motorola 68000) Macs have been out of production for two decades.
FTFY
Yes, let's get a computer with a 10 year old CPU, when the rest of the world is using 386s. Hell Apple even managed to lag behind Commodore until their Quadra line came out. Now that's impressive.
Commodore had their own fab. That was their secret sauce. That and Jay Miner (occasionally)...
Blame IBM for not producing a G5 that was suitable for notebooks, Apple's bread and butter back then. Maybe they didn't care, as Apple was a much smaller client than console makers, or maybe they didn't realize that Apple had Mac OS X on x86 ready since day one for this sort of contingency.
IBM was too interested in the Cell processor they were making for all the console mfgs at the time. Apple was like.5% of their entire IC sales.
Motorola, at the time, was another manufacturer of PowerPCs, so Apple wasn't locked on IBM. In fact, today, Apple could do a whole lot of good by migrating to their A series
Problem is, Mot. was busy trying to kill themselves at the time, and couldn't focus on their commitment to the PowerPC Consortium. All they wanted to do with the PPC was make high-end embedded controllers for Ford and GM with PPC 603 cores under the Freescale name.
Yeah, lets go back to the days of endless shipping delays due to IBM fabbing chips for their P-series servers, and then Apple as an afterthought. Let's go back to not having any performance whatsoever in notebooks, because there was no such thing as a low-wattage G5 and never would be. And, even better, let's get all the software incompatibility of not running a common instruction set with the rest of the world, causing you to have to run needed applications in virtualization + emulation rather than just virtualization.
You may have missed it, but the transition to Intel was the smartest thing that Apple has done in 15 years, other than release the iPhone.
Even though the G5 whipped all over the Intel chips of the day, raw-performance wise, you're right that the move to Intel was the smartest business decision Apple ever made.
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IMO, the new MPB is an impressive engineering job. I really mean it. But as a pro user I can't help being disappointed that the marketing department have limited what could have been a wonderful, no compromise work tool in favor of gimmicks.
The advances I quoted are HARDLY "Gimmicks"; they are solid Engineering improvements. Even the TouchBar is quite the feature when the Application Developer understands how to best use it (or not) in their particular Application.
Sure, you can compensate for everything except the RAM by hanging stuff in a harness of dongles around it (if you remembered to bring them), but it is often not *practical*, which - in many forms (connectors, wire lock, physical function keys, oversize cursor keys) - is an aspect that they apparently haven't discovered yet for their list of what pro users are interested in.
You just don't get it, obviously.
The genius of having a laptop with a shitpotfull of symmetrical, multifunctional, I/O bandwidth is that you have a system that has a MUCH wider Application Envelope than one that has howevermany dedicated, legacy ports. I might need 10 FULL-SPEED 3.0 USB-A Ports to hook up a bunch of Audio interfaces. You might not. You might only need 4 USB-A ports, but want 4 monitors. But with TB 3, you can have your 4 monitors and I can have two monitors, three Ethernet busses, and 10 FULL-SPEED 3.0 USB Ports.
It's all about CHOICE. What we used to have to do with a tower computer stuffed to the gills with peripheral cards, most of which were hogging a precious I/O slot for an interface that used a small fraction of the bandwidth available to that slot, we now can share a single Port with a dizzying array of available I/O options. And best of all: It's mostly platform agnostic.The same USB-C/TB3 "Dock" that you can hook to your Dell lappie can almost always work on my MacBook. As a long-time Mac user, who secretly pined over the peripheral options available only to the Wintel crowd, this is a Brand New Day.
And I, for one, am QUITE happy that it is finally here!
I agree with this sentiment. Touchpads are the ultimate in dumbing down a HID to make it 'friendly' but ultimately less efficient. I refuse to use a consumer notebook these days, so I stick with my T-series ThinkPads with TrackPoint. I understand why some people like touchpads, but I find them irritating, slow, awkward, and inaccurate. Also, nothing like moving a mouse without taking your hands off the home keys.
You must have only used non-Apple trackpads, then.
ALL trackpads are ass. Only the worst of the Apple fanboys claim Apple trackpads are good. They're not. It's simply an inferior tool.
I have a Trackpad on my "MacBook Pro wannabe" Samsung work laptop. I use a mouse on that system. The Trackpad IS "ass".
I know the difference. You don't. Simple as that.
Well, I was simply asking when the ZFS folks got booting working, because it used to be a problem IIRC.
It's been working fine on FreeBSD and Linux.
But since you can't hold a rational discourse with spewing Apple Hate, I guess we're done here.
Yeah, I hate apple. I have good reason to. I just listed one--they went with their own shit-tastic filesystem and last time I checked, they aren't open enough to boot from ZFS.
It may surprise you, but my work computer is a piece-of-shit Macbook Pro. I am forced to use it by policy. It's *terrible*. If I don't fit the 'Apple mold' and just use brain-dead point-and-click applications all day, I end up with segfaults, performance problems, and out-of-memory issues. Hell--vim segfaults 2-3 times per hour on my Macbook. I've never seen that on Linux or FreeBSD. I measure my Macbook uptime in hours, my Linux uptime in months, and my FreeBSD uptime in years.
So yeah--I have a *lot* of hate for Apple products. All it took was using a Macbook Pro for ~3 months in my life, and a newly issued iPhone S (for evaluating an iOS app) for the last week. You might not like the hate, but it's absolutely justified hate. And since this is about filesystems and Apple just released a product that screams "we wanted ZFS, but not-invented-here" that doesn't checksum user data...well...one more reason to hate Apple products.
You've got something hardware-related wrong with that MacBook.
I have had exactly ONE Kernel Panic (what you are incorrectly calling a "Seg-fault") in my years of running OS X/macOS (and that started with OS X 10.0.0; so MANY years), and that was some Freeware "scanner driver" that was a POS. An Unhandled Interrupt if I had to guess.
The only other time I had KPs (and a LOT of them!) was when I bought some dodgy memory for a G5 tower that wasn't up to spec. Hardware Test figured that one out. I replaced the RAM, and not one other KP, ever.
And before you say that is because all I use are "approved", "safe" applications, then perhaps you should look to the quality of the APPLICATIONS, and stop blaming the PLATFORM. If you search for "vim crash os x", you will find a long and storied history of that simple Editor being an unstable POS. Don't think it's the Mac's fault. It's a fucking EDITOR, FFS! Just one that has an issue that no one has bothered to track down and fix.
Howabout you?
The Internet is no longer a niche only a few people care about (see SOPA). Republicans are in for a surprise when democrats run ads with this shit against them and it proves to be effective. Trumps own base is against this. FFS INFOWARS is against it.
This issue is an overwhelming loser with the public. Nobody believes ISPs should be allowed to stalk you online and no amount of weaving shit into gold is going to mask the smell. From what I remember public polling on this was something like 11% of the general public favoring the republican bill.
Rachael Maddow had a poll on last night that showed that 11% said Trump should sign that Bill, and 74% said "No" and "Hell, No!".
And here we are, with our "Representative Governance".
But exactly WHO are they REPRESENTING???
When you use Google for free, it is with the implied consent that your search history is being collected and monetized in exchange for the search service. When you pay Comcast for an Internet connection, there is no implied consent that you paying for a service means that Comcast makes money on your Internet data.
This. This. A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!!!
Oh, and howabout "It's MY data; not theirs". In the meatspace world, that would be called THEFT.
When all traffic is encrypted what will they regulate then?
That's an easy one: Encryption.
Excellent 'Dune' reference. Where can I buy mod points?
Actually, it's more like the bit about the Baron keeping the cat alive so the poison antidote can continue to be available. If the cat dies (because you didn't pay your tribute), You die too (you can't open your front door lock, and have to sleep in your car, which then gets towed with you in it).
Well, I'm down to one 4k display now. The other one shorted out when I spit out the water I was drinking as I read this...
Thanks.
I'm right there with ya. Bravo, bobdehnhardt!!!
>Won't buy anything that relies on an app for full functionality.
Then this device wouldn't appeal to you anyway. As I understand it, the whole purpose of this device is to give you access to your garage door from your phone, which obviously requires an app (I guess you could technically also do it from a webpage, so I don't know if you'd be OK with that, but this stupid company probably doesn't have a webpage alternative to the app).
What I'd like to see is devices like this which publish their API, so you can make your own server and app if you want to.
Don't worry; the protocol is probably all exposed in cleartext on a PCB trace inside the device. Any reasonably-apt embedded jock should be able to reverse-engineer the command set in a couple of hours. But likely not if the server won't let you on.
Good grief, my spelling! It burns!
LOL! You made my day!
Actually, my Linux Mint's are just running well, yesterday I needed to scan some documents, so a picked up from basement my old Canon LED USB scanner that is not working on OSX anymore, no drivers. Connected to the Mint and in like 5 seconds I was burning documents using it, no pain, no drivers to install, nothing. EAT that Apple & Microsoft!
Wake me when they release a standard Pro tower not this garbage can!
VueScan doesn't have a driver for that Canon?
"[...] the list of things pro users are interested in talking about. They're interested in things like performance and storage and expandability."
Uhmm... If they knew all along, I'd like to hear him explain the latest MacBook Pro model.
New MacBook Pro:
Performance: USABLE performance almost DOUBLE of the previous model, since the thermal design allows both the CPU and GPU to run at 100% 24/7 without throttling.
Storage: USB-C and Thunderbolt 3 provide external storage that is nearly as fast as internal storage.
Expandability: With 80 Gbps of raw I/O bandwidth, the new MBP is the world's most expandable laptop already.
What unexpandable "Pro" device is built with anything but Malice?
The only thing that Apple did wrong with the Mac Pro was listen to the Intel Rep's spiel about how TB would obviate peripheral cards.
I disagree. I think Jobs' vision was Apple itself and he worked very hard to make sure the ideals and culture would survive him. The cylindrical Mac Pro was designed with love and it was a very Jobsian machine in my mind. But the design just doesn't stand up to what people want in a pro machine. (G4 Cube anyone?)
What is Apple doing so wrong? And how would Jobs have done things differently? Under Jobs Apple killed the Xserve overnight.
Well, not "overnight"; but it sure should have made the transition to Intel before they gave up on it.
Both of them use the keyboards and ignore touch.
Every single Surface pro I see used is used with the keyboard and they use the trackpoint spot on the keyboard cover. When I had the Surface Pro I tried to use the touchscreen. It's pretty darn useless if you are doing any real work.
And yet, with all the Surface commercials, it's ALL they advertise...
It's not 1999 loser. You must be retarded. My grandma uses Linux.
And I'm sure that either her name is Ada Lovelace, or she didn't set it up herself.
She can take an iMac out of the box and be up and running in less than 10 minutes.
And by "works" you mean after you've manually configured files, got told to RTFM which doesn't exist, got yelled at online by people who think you should automatically know what to do, then sacrifice a goat in the hope an obscure posting from three years ago will do the trick.
If Linux just "works", why is it people on here repeatedly post about not having sound or cameras or drives working even with the latest packages and instead have to jump through hoop trying to get the above to work?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
You took the words right offa my keyboard.
Ideally, Apple should ship a 256 GB NVMe SSD and a 1TB HDD, using that for a baseline Fusion configuration. For expanded stuff, the machine should have at least two NVMe slots (for SSD RAID), and a good amount of SATA slots with a hardware RAID controller that supports autotiering, and RAID 6.
In the desktop world, I believe that TB 3 has nicely addressed that need. No reason whatsoever to have massive amounts of internal drive bays.
Apple has a serious problem with storage on MBP. For their price points they should start at 512, with 1T being the norm and all lines having a slight increase to access 2T. If iMac is going to be like MBP why would anyone care?
With TB, who cares? Especially with a desktop. Get yourself an external and STFU.
Apple will make you use dongles and raise the price for their toy Macs. Real (Motorola 68000) Macs have been out of production for two decades.
FTFY
Yes, let's get a computer with a 10 year old CPU, when the rest of the world is using 386s. Hell Apple even managed to lag behind Commodore until their Quadra line came out. Now that's impressive.
Commodore had their own fab. That was their secret sauce. That and Jay Miner (occasionally)...
Blame IBM for not producing a G5 that was suitable for notebooks, Apple's bread and butter back then. Maybe they didn't care, as Apple was a much smaller client than console makers, or maybe they didn't realize that Apple had Mac OS X on x86 ready since day one for this sort of contingency.
IBM was too interested in the Cell processor they were making for all the console mfgs at the time. Apple was like .5% of their entire IC sales.
Motorola, at the time, was another manufacturer of PowerPCs, so Apple wasn't locked on IBM. In fact, today, Apple could do a whole lot of good by migrating to their A series
Problem is, Mot. was busy trying to kill themselves at the time, and couldn't focus on their commitment to the PowerPC Consortium. All they wanted to do with the PPC was make high-end embedded controllers for Ford and GM with PPC 603 cores under the Freescale name.
Yeah, lets go back to the days of endless shipping delays due to IBM fabbing chips for their P-series servers, and then Apple as an afterthought. Let's go back to not having any performance whatsoever in notebooks, because there was no such thing as a low-wattage G5 and never would be. And, even better, let's get all the software incompatibility of not running a common instruction set with the rest of the world, causing you to have to run needed applications in virtualization + emulation rather than just virtualization.
You may have missed it, but the transition to Intel was the smartest thing that Apple has done in 15 years, other than release the iPhone.
Even though the G5 whipped all over the Intel chips of the day, raw-performance wise, you're right that the move to Intel was the smartest business decision Apple ever made.
Apple will make you use dongles and raise the price for their toy Macs. Real (PowerPC) Macs have been out of production for a decade.
So the cheese-grater Mac Pros weren't Real?
I'll always love my G5 tower (which continues to serve as an iTunes server); but I'd trade it in a minute for a 2010 Mac Pro.
$$$? There are many more iMac users than Mac Pro users. I would guess 10:1 would be a conservative estimate.
Add at least TWO zeros to that.