Dell / hp / others all do specs bumps / price drops over time. But apple still has 5400RPM hdds in the imacs.
Apple looks for ways to make system thinner and thinner and takes ports away.
For many front-office and home applications, a 5400 RPM HDD is completely sufficient; plus I would be VERY surprised if many Windows computers aren't still rockin' 5400 RPM HDDs, too...
As a society, we have become obsessed with never-ending growth and progress.
That is not the issue here. Just because hardware is updated every year doesn't mean people need, or want, to upgrade that often. But when their old hardware finally needs to be replaced, they shouldn't have to buy a "new" computer based on tech from two years ago.
I really don't understand Apple's strategy. They have a huge locked-in customer base, and high profit margins. Any other hardware manufacturer would love to be in their position. They could be making a lot of money by releasing more often. Yet they don't. It doesn't make sense.
Everything from mid-2012 to present can run Mojave. That's SIX, not TWO, years ago.
The issue is not the CPUs, but the GPUs. Those earlier Macs do not have "Metal-compatible" GPUs, and so, Apple drew the line in the sand "there" for Mojave.
I suspect someone in the Hackintosh Community will come along and supply the missing Frameworks to allow installation on those older machines.
But even if that is not practical, those machines can still install High Sierra, and that has sufficiently modern Frameworks that it will be supported by Apple and third-party Applications and OS-Features for at least another 5 years or so.
Why, because I actually want something that works, has the connectors pretty much needed (no dongle hell!), and lasts for a day? Are you so fragile that an extra 6 pounds will hurt you?
No, not at all.
It's because you feel the need to bolster your argument, and hardware choice, by impugning the manhood of those who choose to work another way.
Oh, and what about the millions of female engineers? Are they less "manly" if they don't work the same way you do?
Now go and see who does what with NX, or Vectorworks. You'll find that 95% of the industry is either Solidworks or Pro/E. You've locked yourself out from interoperability with your vendors, CMs, and technical consultants. It's like saying you're working with a Mac in a world dominated by Windows. It's a shackled ball to your ankle...
I have a friend/client who does theatre archtecture/staging consulting. All of the architectural firms he works with run AutoCAD on Windows (or something similar that speaks DXF/DWG). He has used, and still uses, VectorWorks.
It has been a LONG time since he has had any problem importing/exporting drawings with those people using VectorWorks' DXF/DWG Import/Export support.
I am not sure about how well that would fare with SolidWorks of Pro/E; but those both support some industry-standard (or at least widely-supported) Protocols that would probably work. It has just been about a decade since I last played in that particular world, though.
Between 1 and 10 hours for the P71, a bigger version of this. In real-world use, I see about 5-8 hours on a charge, doing a mix of CAD, surfing, and e-mail. Apparently you can watch around 14 hours of video on a charge... So plenty of battery life. Of course, it's not "courageously" thin, but then this is a real man's computer, not something for a limp-wristed pantywaist who traipses around with skinny jeans raving about saving 0.1m thickness on the latest phone because COURAGE!
Nope. CAD is almost always done on a single screen - you don't need dual screens. I have an extra one at home, it's nice to toss up Outlook and a music player on the laptop and use the bigger screen for CAD, but I'm essentially working in a single screen. Same as when I'm on the road.
Maybe that's the way you prefer to work; but not me.
FreeCAD, QCAD, ARESCommander......oh you mean professional tools with the features people need.
Aside from AutoCAD the CAD, CAM, CAE offerings are pretty thin for the Mac and really when you have great tools that work already who really gives a shit what operating system they're running on underneath.
Or VectorWorks (which beats the PANTS off of AutoCAD!) :
http://www.vectorworks.net/en/......and, as for PCB/Schematic Capture, now that EaglePCB is owned by AutoDesk, I guess it is "legit", too:
https://www.autodesk.com/produ......and although their website looks like a 8 year-old designed it, the venerable McCAD is still kicking around, and is actually QUITE nice. It's Autorouter, for example, is second-to-none:
http://www.mccad.com/..and there is also the Open Source XCircuit, which I know nothing about:
Wrong, CAD, CAE, rendering, prototyping, all available on OSX. Why don't you Google?
I have actually Googled that stuff FOR this moron several times. He will just rebut with "Yeah, but what about [x]?"
No winning with LynwoodRooster. And for someone who supposedly jets all over the planet, servicing his many and varied engineering clients, he sure has a lot of time to engage in day-long, multi-posting, flamewars on Slashdot.
I've also caught him on several occasions posting incorrect "proof" of his points.
What? You mean I can take my iMac Pro with me on the plane, and use it in the lounge? Or I can take it on BART as I spend a few hours at two different clients each day? Toss it in the top case on my motorcycle and ride on down to Orange County for a 3 hour meeting? Or move easily from upstairs in my office to out in my backyard where the sun is out and it's perfect? How about an actual laptop that is powerful enough on its own - one that will do what is needed.
Oh, and for those who do CAD, they are most likely running Windows anyway; there really is no 3D parametric CAD for OSX, nor any professional PCB/schematic capture software. So why by an iMac Pro and load Windows on it? Just get a better PC in the first place, for less money, that comes with Windows pre-loaded. Like a solid, workstation-class laptop.
First, we've had the discussion about what CAD/CAE tools are available for macOS. But it doesn't matter, because, News Flash! Macs run Windows, too!!!
As I said, I agree that, for some limited use-cases, having a laptop with "workstation guts" is likely an interesting thing. But it seems like there are too many compromises with cooling, available hardware choices, I/O, and (extreme) lack of battery-life, that make it more of an expensive curiosity than a practical solution for most.
Nope. A 17", good quality screen is plenty for 90% of the time. I don't need to have lots of windows open; it can be more convenient to do so, but 90% of the time I'd be on one screen anyway. So why do I need a second monitor? And I would say this is pretty normal for most technical hardware consultants/engineers I know - you can do what you need really on a decent 17" screen. If I'm surfacing a new enclosure, or optimizing the curvature on a molded spring, why would I be bouncing between windows? I'm sitting in CAD. Likewise if I'm laying out a PCB - I'm in the PCB software, I'm not bouncing around to other windows, no need to do that at all.
Simply put: what YOU think works doesn't apply to lots of other people. There is a need for this kind of laptop - and I (and the 2 dozen or so other technical consulting engineers I know) are the market. There are hundreds of thousands of us out there - we're the market.
I currently use a P71, fully loaded, and it works well 80% of the time; some models bring it to a crawl, more RAM would help. And I love having a built-in PANTONE screen calibration, so when I am showing my client the current Keyshots of a concept, I can do it in true color - and with a 17" screen, it's actually possible to have two people looking at it as the same time at a desk.
There is study after study that directly correlates efficiency with available screen real-estate. And no, a 17" laptop screen, even a 4k one, doesn't qualify.
In any engineering and/or software development job I have ever had, a MINIMUM of one external monitor, plus a laptop screen, is necessary to keep my life from becoming little more than an exercise in window-management. And I am no where near alone in that opinion.
Apple has had the ability to have Pantone screen calibration since before IBM/Lenovo released their first laptop. I agree it is sometimes indispensable when dealing with picky clients.
No, I started about the single USB C connector on the Macbook - YOU are the one trying to say why dongle-hell is Good and Right. Even with lots of USB-C connectors, you still need lots of dongles to do what most laptops can do. Type A, HDMI or DisplayPort, Ethernet... Apple has dropped connectors in the past, doing a laptop with a SINGLE connector that DEMANDS dongles to connect to just about anything is downright stupid.
Going with 3 of those connectors is marginally better, but it still does not get you out of dongle hell.
First, it's FOUR of "those connectors", and it is much more than "marginally" better.
Remember when almost ALL laptops were expected to use an expensive, proprietary DOCK to be able to connect to almost anything?
So, you favor a world where the OEM, not the USER, decides what EVERYONE will have as far as I/O ports?
Really? You actually are going to stand here and defend THAT position?
Because people have use cases for portable workstations with a built-in screen and are smart enough to understand that more power requires a lower battery life, and they're willing to make that trade-off. This is how every market-based purchasing decision anywhere and everywhere is made.
It's probably not the same person you see at Starbucks with a MacBook Air sipping a flat white while being outraged on Twitter.
That's actually OK.
Really? Are you SURE?!?
Well, it does appear there may be some limited use-cases for this kind of laptop; but they are pretty rare, methinks.
False. I travel extensively and have a monster laptop (P71 with 64 GB RAM, 17" screen, etc) so that I have my workstation whenever I am on-site with clients. I don't have to worry about maintaining two systems, sharing/transferring SW licenses (most real CAD programs have licensing systems), etc. Last week I was in China, doing work - and engineering. This week is Los Angeles. Next week is the Bay area. I take my workstation with me, because it IS portable, and it CAN replace a desktop.
Ok, I can see that use-case. But you still have to have additional displays wherever you go...and still, a pretty narrow market-segment.
You can buy a few monitors to leave on the various desks you'd use something like this on. Much cheaper than entire workstations at each location and you always have your data with you.
So at your home office you have your multi-monitor setup, and at your on-site office you have your multimonitor setup, and now you have a 'portable' workstation that you can more easily lug between the two.
The biggest CAD/3D models these days are for 3D buildings - like a new factory, airport or shopping center. Those CAD files can very easily become bigger than 64GB and not fit in RAM anymore. If you need to go to the construction site with a 98GB CAD model that can be inspected, how do you do that without a laptop that has 128GB RAM? Do you take a 35,000 USD dual Xeon CAD workstation with 3 GPUs that weighs 40 to 50 lbs and carry it to the construction site in a van? That's what these new laptops are for. Opening huge 3D CAD files away from the office desk - and very likely at a construction site.
No. You throw your 128 GB iMac Pro in the back of your car.
Done. And a big enough display that is is actually USABLE.
CAD and 3D models are getting really huge these days. Particularly in architectural visualization. So if you need to load the 3D CAD model of an entire car engine, or the highly complex 3D model of an entire shopping center, you may very well run out of RAM if you only have 64GB. In architectural visualization, you may be loading a building model that has dozens of rooms or hundreds of windows and other details. 128GB is not unusual to work on such monster scenes, and it has never been available in mobile form until today. So there are real world uses for that much RAM.
But not supported by a single 15" laptop display, unless you are TRULY desperate.
Call it a portable workstation, if you like that. I need my "laptops" to move around with me - so I have a properly specced computer with me wherever I work. I don't necessarily need a lot of battery life. Just because you CAN'T see a usecase, doesn't mean there ISN"T one.
The problem is that something that needs that much horsepower almost always needs multiple displays. and those just don't "port" as easily as a laptop; so again, if you have to lug around your environment to be efficient, then why not at least port around a high-end All-In-One, like an iMac Pro. it is available with up to 128 GB RAM, 18-Core Xeons, multiple TB3 ports, built-in 5k display that is large enough to actually SEE things on, etc...
I don't have any use for something like this, either personally, or in my work. What's the point of something like this? What kind of software needs this kind of juice?
Slashdot Mirror
Dell / hp / others all do specs bumps / price drops over time. But apple still has 5400RPM hdds in the imacs.
Apple looks for ways to make system thinner and thinner and takes ports away.
For many front-office and home applications, a 5400 RPM HDD is completely sufficient; plus I would be VERY surprised if many Windows computers aren't still rockin' 5400 RPM HDDs, too...
As a society, we have become obsessed with never-ending growth and progress.
That is not the issue here. Just because hardware is updated every year doesn't mean people need, or want, to upgrade that often. But when their old hardware finally needs to be replaced, they shouldn't have to buy a "new" computer based on tech from two years ago.
I really don't understand Apple's strategy. They have a huge locked-in customer base, and high profit margins. Any other hardware manufacturer would love to be in their position. They could be making a lot of money by releasing more often. Yet they don't. It doesn't make sense.
Everything from mid-2012 to present can run Mojave. That's SIX, not TWO, years ago.
The issue is not the CPUs, but the GPUs. Those earlier Macs do not have "Metal-compatible" GPUs, and so, Apple drew the line in the sand "there" for Mojave.
I suspect someone in the Hackintosh Community will come along and supply the missing Frameworks to allow installation on those older machines.
But even if that is not practical, those machines can still install High Sierra, and that has sufficiently modern Frameworks that it will be supported by Apple and third-party Applications and OS-Features for at least another 5 years or so.
What CAD do you do? What mechanical team do you work with?
Not any for about the last decade, unfortunately. The 2008 economic crash nicely put an end to THAT career-path, unfortunately.
Now I just write stupid Windows business software. So I am already spending my time in Hell; hoping to get "time served" when I die.
Why, because I actually want something that works, has the connectors pretty much needed (no dongle hell!), and lasts for a day? Are you so fragile that an extra 6 pounds will hurt you?
No, not at all.
It's because you feel the need to bolster your argument, and hardware choice, by impugning the manhood of those who choose to work another way.
Oh, and what about the millions of female engineers? Are they less "manly" if they don't work the same way you do?
Now go and see who does what with NX, or Vectorworks. You'll find that 95% of the industry is either Solidworks or Pro/E. You've locked yourself out from interoperability with your vendors, CMs, and technical consultants. It's like saying you're working with a Mac in a world dominated by Windows. It's a shackled ball to your ankle...
I have a friend/client who does theatre archtecture/staging consulting. All of the architectural firms he works with run AutoCAD on Windows (or something similar that speaks DXF/DWG). He has used, and still uses, VectorWorks.
It has been a LONG time since he has had any problem importing/exporting drawings with those people using VectorWorks' DXF/DWG Import/Export support.
I am not sure about how well that would fare with SolidWorks of Pro/E; but those both support some industry-standard (or at least widely-supported) Protocols that would probably work. It has just been about a decade since I last played in that particular world, though.
Between 1 and 10 hours for the P71, a bigger version of this. In real-world use, I see about 5-8 hours on a charge, doing a mix of CAD, surfing, and e-mail. Apparently you can watch around 14 hours of video on a charge... So plenty of battery life. Of course, it's not "courageously" thin, but then this is a real man's computer, not something for a limp-wristed pantywaist who traipses around with skinny jeans raving about saving 0.1m thickness on the latest phone because COURAGE!
A "Real Man's Computer"
Now I KNOW you've got issues...
Nope. CAD is almost always done on a single screen - you don't need dual screens. I have an extra one at home, it's nice to toss up Outlook and a music player on the laptop and use the bigger screen for CAD, but I'm essentially working in a single screen. Same as when I'm on the road.
Maybe that's the way you prefer to work; but not me.
FreeCAD, QCAD, ARESCommander... ...oh you mean professional tools with the features people need.
Aside from AutoCAD the CAD, CAM, CAE offerings are pretty thin for the Mac and really when you have great tools that work already who really gives a shit what operating system they're running on underneath.
You mean like Siemens NX:
https://www.tatatechnologies.c...
https://community.plm.automati...
Or VectorWorks (which beats the PANTS off of AutoCAD!) :
http://www.vectorworks.net/en/... ...and, as for PCB/Schematic Capture, now that EaglePCB is owned by AutoDesk, I guess it is "legit", too:
https://www.autodesk.com/produ... ...and although their website looks like a 8 year-old designed it, the venerable McCAD is still kicking around, and is actually QUITE nice. It's Autorouter, for example, is second-to-none:
http://www.mccad.com/ ..and there is also the Open Source XCircuit, which I know nothing about:
http://opencircuitdesign.com/x...
Wrong, CAD, CAE, rendering, prototyping, all available on OSX. Why don't you Google?
I have actually Googled that stuff FOR this moron several times. He will just rebut with "Yeah, but what about [x]?"
No winning with LynwoodRooster. And for someone who supposedly jets all over the planet, servicing his many and varied engineering clients, he sure has a lot of time to engage in day-long, multi-posting, flamewars on Slashdot.
I've also caught him on several occasions posting incorrect "proof" of his points.
What? You mean I can take my iMac Pro with me on the plane, and use it in the lounge? Or I can take it on BART as I spend a few hours at two different clients each day? Toss it in the top case on my motorcycle and ride on down to Orange County for a 3 hour meeting? Or move easily from upstairs in my office to out in my backyard where the sun is out and it's perfect? How about an actual laptop that is powerful enough on its own - one that will do what is needed.
Oh, and for those who do CAD, they are most likely running Windows anyway; there really is no 3D parametric CAD for OSX, nor any professional PCB/schematic capture software. So why by an iMac Pro and load Windows on it? Just get a better PC in the first place, for less money, that comes with Windows pre-loaded. Like a solid, workstation-class laptop.
First, we've had the discussion about what CAD/CAE tools are available for macOS. But it doesn't matter, because, News Flash! Macs run Windows, too!!!
As I said, I agree that, for some limited use-cases, having a laptop with "workstation guts" is likely an interesting thing. But it seems like there are too many compromises with cooling, available hardware choices, I/O, and (extreme) lack of battery-life, that make it more of an expensive curiosity than a practical solution for most.
Nope. A 17", good quality screen is plenty for 90% of the time. I don't need to have lots of windows open; it can be more convenient to do so, but 90% of the time I'd be on one screen anyway. So why do I need a second monitor? And I would say this is pretty normal for most technical hardware consultants/engineers I know - you can do what you need really on a decent 17" screen. If I'm surfacing a new enclosure, or optimizing the curvature on a molded spring, why would I be bouncing between windows? I'm sitting in CAD. Likewise if I'm laying out a PCB - I'm in the PCB software, I'm not bouncing around to other windows, no need to do that at all.
Simply put: what YOU think works doesn't apply to lots of other people. There is a need for this kind of laptop - and I (and the 2 dozen or so other technical consulting engineers I know) are the market. There are hundreds of thousands of us out there - we're the market.
I currently use a P71, fully loaded, and it works well 80% of the time; some models bring it to a crawl, more RAM would help. And I love having a built-in PANTONE screen calibration, so when I am showing my client the current Keyshots of a concept, I can do it in true color - and with a 17" screen, it's actually possible to have two people looking at it as the same time at a desk.
There is study after study that directly correlates efficiency with available screen real-estate. And no, a 17" laptop screen, even a 4k one, doesn't qualify.
In any engineering and/or software development job I have ever had, a MINIMUM of one external monitor, plus a laptop screen, is necessary to keep my life from becoming little more than an exercise in window-management. And I am no where near alone in that opinion.
Apple has had the ability to have Pantone screen calibration since before IBM/Lenovo released their first laptop. I agree it is sometimes indispensable when dealing with picky clients.
No, I started about the single USB C connector on the Macbook - YOU are the one trying to say why dongle-hell is Good and Right. Even with lots of USB-C connectors, you still need lots of dongles to do what most laptops can do. Type A, HDMI or DisplayPort, Ethernet... Apple has dropped connectors in the past, doing a laptop with a SINGLE connector that DEMANDS dongles to connect to just about anything is downright stupid.
Going with 3 of those connectors is marginally better, but it still does not get you out of dongle hell.
First, it's FOUR of "those connectors", and it is much more than "marginally" better.
Remember when almost ALL laptops were expected to use an expensive, proprietary DOCK to be able to connect to almost anything?
So, you favor a world where the OEM, not the USER, decides what EVERYONE will have as far as I/O ports?
Really? You actually are going to stand here and defend THAT position?
Idiot.
imac pro no repair over priced upgrades and storage locked on MB Starting at only $4999
whatever.
You actually think this laptop will be significantly less than that?
No slightly less in price not significantly less, but an order of magnitude or two more powerful.
I'd truly like to see something that is an order or two of magnitude more powerful than an 18 core iMac Pro, that didn't also require a rack.
I mean, why
Because people have use cases for portable workstations with a built-in screen and are smart enough to understand that more power requires a lower battery life, and they're willing to make that trade-off. This is how every market-based purchasing decision anywhere and everywhere is made.
It's probably not the same person you see at Starbucks with a MacBook Air sipping a flat white while being outraged on Twitter.
That's actually OK.
Really? Are you SURE?!?
Well, it does appear there may be some limited use-cases for this kind of laptop; but they are pretty rare, methinks.
False. I travel extensively and have a monster laptop (P71 with 64 GB RAM, 17" screen, etc) so that I have my workstation whenever I am on-site with clients. I don't have to worry about maintaining two systems, sharing/transferring SW licenses (most real CAD programs have licensing systems), etc. Last week I was in China, doing work - and engineering. This week is Los Angeles. Next week is the Bay area. I take my workstation with me, because it IS portable, and it CAN replace a desktop.
Ok, I can see that use-case. But you still have to have additional displays wherever you go. ..and still, a pretty narrow market-segment.
It appears to have a "longer battery life" than the P51, which has a 9-hour battery life.
Unpossible. Not with that much RAM, GPU, CPU.
You can buy a few monitors to leave on the various desks you'd use something like this on. Much cheaper than entire workstations at each location and you always have your data with you.
As I said above: "Meh".
why even call something like this a Laptop?
It's a typographical error. They meant "cell phones".
LOL!
Did you know optical mice use ~ 5 times the power of roller-ball mice?
What about capactive touchpads?
So at your home office you have your multi-monitor setup, and at your on-site office you have your multimonitor setup, and now you have a 'portable' workstation that you can more easily lug between the two.
Meh.
imac pro no repair over priced upgrades and storage locked on MB Starting at only $4999
whatever.
You actually think this laptop will be significantly less than that?
The biggest CAD/3D models these days are for 3D buildings - like a new factory, airport or shopping center. Those CAD files can very easily become bigger than 64GB and not fit in RAM anymore. If you need to go to the construction site with a 98GB CAD model that can be inspected, how do you do that without a laptop that has 128GB RAM? Do you take a 35,000 USD dual Xeon CAD workstation with 3 GPUs that weighs 40 to 50 lbs and carry it to the construction site in a van? That's what these new laptops are for. Opening huge 3D CAD files away from the office desk - and very likely at a construction site.
No. You throw your 128 GB iMac Pro in the back of your car.
Done. And a big enough display that is is actually USABLE.
Next question?
CAD and 3D models are getting really huge these days. Particularly in architectural visualization. So if you need to load the 3D CAD model of an entire car engine, or the highly complex 3D model of an entire shopping center, you may very well run out of RAM if you only have 64GB. In architectural visualization, you may be loading a building model that has dozens of rooms or hundreds of windows and other details. 128GB is not unusual to work on such monster scenes, and it has never been available in mobile form until today. So there are real world uses for that much RAM.
But not supported by a single 15" laptop display, unless you are TRULY desperate.
Call it a portable workstation, if you like that. I need my "laptops" to move around with me - so I have a properly specced computer with me wherever I work. I don't necessarily need a lot of battery life. Just because you CAN'T see a usecase, doesn't mean there ISN"T one.
The problem is that something that needs that much horsepower almost always needs multiple displays. and those just don't "port" as easily as a laptop; so again, if you have to lug around your environment to be efficient, then why not at least port around a high-end All-In-One, like an iMac Pro. it is available with up to 128 GB RAM, 18-Core Xeons, multiple TB3 ports, built-in 5k display that is large enough to actually SEE things on, etc...
I don't have any use for something like this, either personally, or in my work. What's the point of something like this? What kind of software needs this kind of juice?
Surely none that also requires portability.